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- [00:00]
A
And we're live from the living room as Doug eyes up the match. Say spread. He's reaching for the buffalo wing. Perfect.
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B
Hang on.
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A
What's this? Oh, he's gone for a can of Pepsi too. Incredible. What a finish. Sensational combination. Look at the delight on his face. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match days deserve Pepsi. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a pack of Pepsi. Zero sugar for today's match. It's poetry in motion. I'm Kiana and I leveled up my business with Shopify. Once I figured out that Shopify was a thing, I never turned back. I can create a site with my eyes closed. Shopify thinks ahead of us, you know, and it thinks about the customer more than anything. Every day I'm thinking about some other new business, but Shopify is doing it to me because it's so easy to use. It's like I can't stop. I'm addicted. Start your free trial@shopify.com. hello, dear listeners, Thomas Small here. My goodness, we're going through another heat wave in England and once again I am sweating bullets as I think my dear friend Eamon is as well back where he lives in the UAE. Given everything that's happened in the last 48 hours during the NATO summit in Ankara. As I'm sure most of you know, Trump, in one of his periodic displays of, well, his periodic of old Fosses, if you like his, his 180 degree turns, suddenly decided that the very rational new leaders of Iran, as he called them a week or two before, were scum whom he no longer wanted to do anything with. And that as far as he was concerned, the memorandum of misunderstanding, as we've called it on this show, was basically dead. Now, is that the case? I don't know. Today, while I believe while boarding Air Force One or a plane that, well, became Air Force One, as soon as he stepped aboard it, he said, well, you know, they're desperate for a deal. They really want a deal. We'll see. I don't know. We'll see. So, you know, who the hell knows? I think Aman is finding out. But because of the chaos that was unleashed when Iran firing on some commercial vessels transiting the Strait of Hormuz invited a ferocious American response. Well, I say ferocious. I don't really know how ferocious it was, but it certainly represented an escalation from where we had been before. All very unexpected because the former Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei's funeral procession is still underway, I believe today. His coffin returned to Iran from Iraq, if I've understood that correctly. But it hasn't yet reached Mashhad, where it, I think is going to be laid to rest and where Eamon thinks maybe the new supreme leader, Mujtaba Khamenei will make some sort of appearance. That is if he is actually alive. Amon has good reason to believe he is alive. Many people suggest that he is dead. I do trust Amon on that fact. Whether the Mujtaba Khamenei is going to make an appearance in Mashhad at his father's burial is another question. We shall see. Because the funeral procession had not yet ended, because the World cup in America has not yet ended, I think nobody was expecting the a return to this degree of escalation so soon. And yet it has happened. It means that Eamonn has been once again thrown into a whirlwind of meetings to help people understand what's going on, to help advise decision makers, and to find out himself exactly what's happening. For this reason, he has not been able to sit down in front of the microphone this week as he normally would. We are going to record an episode this Saturday which I will hope to release on Tuesday, and no doubt Eamon will explain it all in that episode. In the meantime, we have decided to re release the first half of an episode that first aired literally and precisely one year ago today. This was the final episode of season five and also the final episode in our nine episode arc on the Syrian civil war. In this episode, Eamon told us about his nephew who, when the civil war in Syria broke out, joined the jihad against the Assad regime. I really liked the episode because Amon spoke so candidly about the suffering that he and his family experienced when this beloved nephew died during a battle. But more than that, I thought it was a good time to re release this episode because yesterday, Wednesday 8th July 2026, the Trump administration formally notified Congress of President Trump's intention to remove Syria from the State Sponsors of Terrorism list. It marks another important turning point in the history of Syria since Ahmed Ashara became president there. I can't really explain how monumental this change is. Syria has been on the State Sponsors of terrorism list since 29 December 1979. For 46 and a half years then, Syria has been officially a state sponsor of terrorism. Originally it was put on the list because Hafez Al Assad was supporting armed Palestinian factions, particularly the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, but also other violent organizations that radically rejected Zionism. But over the following decades, more and more grounds were raised to keep Syria on the list. Its sponsorship of Hezbollah, Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. And not just sponsorship, but sometimes its hosting of those organizations. Assad's strategic partnership with Iran and the irgc, Bashar Al Assad's facilitation of foreign jihadists entering Iraq after America's invasion of that in 2003. And in general over the decades, Syria's provision of territory, for example to the pkk, weapons, money and political protection to many, many militant organizations. So the fact that Syria was a state sponsor of terrorism became really definitional for the way that country was perceived by the international community and especially by the Western order. You know, it wasn't just that the Assads were horrible dictators that even sort of tolerated terrorism, let's say, but they had become a regime that explicitly and deliberately used non state actors, militant groups, terrorist groups, a bit like Colonel Gaddafi did in Libya, as instruments of their foreign policy. So the fact that the President has notified Congress, as he has to do, of his intention to rescind the designation of Syria from the State Sponsors of Terrorism list is very important. It begins a 45 day process where Congress will examine the President's request. And you know, assuming as I think it's fair to assume that the Congress doesn't block the request, the removal should become effective then. So, you know, maybe in early mid September we will see Syria officially off the State Sponsors of Terrorism list. At the end of the episode I'll explain what this possibly means for Syria. But for now, here is Amon Dean telling the story of his nephew's decision to join the Jihad against the Assad regime following the outbreak of the Syrian civil war, with tragic consequences for him personally. But it's a reminder of what the fall of Assad and the coming to power of the new regime in Syria under the leadership of President Ahmed Ashara means not just for Ayman, but for Arabs, for Muslims, for Syrians, for people everywhere who were determined to see the end of the Assad regime. So I hope you enjoy it. And as I say at the end of the episode, I'll discuss a little bit what it might mean for Syria that the process has now officially begun whereby it will be removed from the State sponsors of terrorism list. Eamon We've been doing what for me was just a really fun, informative, quite moving miniseries arc on the Syrian civil war. Talking to Syrians from across the country who lived through the war, hearing their experiences of the war. We hope, dear listeners, that by doing so we've painted a picture for you of the complexity of that war, the reality of that war. Beyond simplistic headlines, beyond summaries, the Syrian civil war is among the most complicated geopolitical events in modern Middle Eastern history. We've done our best to give a sense at least, of that complexity. Eamon. All those fascinating, tragic stories speaking to civilians living through it. Eamon, why do you suppose these sorts of firsthand accounts are so valuable, let's say, over academics or analysts like myself, to be honest, who look on these things from afar?
- [09:54]
B
Okay, first of all, the story of Syria, you know, when you go into. Deep into it, at its core is a human story. It's a story yearning for just basic daily freedoms of, you know, expressing your mind about mundane things without getting beaten up, imprisoned, or worse. Also, at the same time, the economic freedom that people always wanted to start a business without having to wait 500 days for a business license and just to open a shawarma shop, and you have to pay huge amount of bribes. Just the freedom from paying bribes themselves is in itself a huge blessing. When I talk to people in Syria and I've been involved so much, like since the fall of the regime, some of them are still not believing that they can mention the word dollar in the streets. I'm not kidding. Seriously, Thomas, I mean, before, if you mentioned the word dollar in the street, you know, you could be actually taken in for questioning. Are you a black market money dealer? Are you like, you know, importing, you know, things using $? Do you have dollars in your pocket, you son of a bitch? You know, they have these kind of fears because dollar was supposed to be banned you from the official regime cronies who control the market. But can you believe it? Just like in a few words, could land you in jail. And it's an innocent word. And the fact that the people can say it. I mean, people will sit down with you in a hamidiyya market or and sit down with you over a special ice cream and all of that. And they will tell you, I mean, I'm talking to you as a foreigner, I'm talking to you as someone who shouldn't be here. And yet I'm talking to you, and I'm talking to you about how I felt at the time, the repression, you know, talking about everything from the missing people, from the dead people, from the mass graves, from, you know, the bribes you have to pay, the beatings people I know like, you know, were subjected to. I can talk about all of this and I can mention the word dollar Again with that being afraid. That fear, the fact that it's no longer there, is a blessing. They cannot thank the Lord enough for it. And for me, I really realized that how much of the things that we take for granted that are absolute blessings to others. And so when people who are always abroad living in the west, condemning the so called conspiracy against Assad as a conspiracy against the axis of resistance, against imperialism and capitalism, blah, blah, blah, whatever I tell them, please spend one day in Sadnaya prison or spend one week under that repressive, you know, environment and if you are happy with it, then shut up and live there. Continue to live there, please, if you are happy with it. Because if you're not happy, then do not ask tens of millions of others to be happy with it just because it corresponds with your twisted, narrow minded WorldView.
- [13:14]
A
Over the 14 years of the Syrian revolution and civil war, Eamon, I mean there are literally millions of stories. We've heard a few. There's one that we haven't heard of, not in great detail. And that's the story of your nephew who played a role in that wider narrative, I suppose a small role, a very tragic role. I hope, Eamon, that you'll be happy to tell his story to sort of bring our Syria series to a close, at least for now.
- [13:46]
B
In 2012, when the Syrian uprising started to take more of a civil war direction, I was talking to one of my former bosses in MI6 and he happened to be my boss in the bank where I used to work. So, you know, we both moved from MI6 to that bank to head the financial intelligence unit there. And we were talking about will Syria become the new jihad place? I said yes. And I don't know, somehow, I don't know how I said, somehow I feel that a member or two of my family could die there, could go fight and die there. And I don't know why I said it and I didn't know what prompted me to say that. And he asked me, he said, what is prompting you to say that? I said, I don't know, it's just a feeling, a hunch. Fast forward July of 2013. I heard from the family that my nephew Ibrahim, who was only 19 at the time, traveled to Syria to fight. And I had really mixed feelings about it.
- [14:57]
A
Tell us about Ibrahim. What sort of guy was he like? What are your memories of him?
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B
Artistic. Very much like. I mean, he was into graphic design at the time. He is someone like, you know, basically who would really. He was really good at drawings. You know, he Was very good at designing. And I thought he would be like his uncle, my late brother Muhammad, who also was very crafty. So he was into arts and crafts. So he was into arts and crafts and also into designing. And I was thinking that, okay, that after high school, most likely, he will go into graphic design and enter into that business. But then that summer I heard that he went to Syria.
- [15:38]
A
How do you suppose that he went from being this young man that you knew, very artistically gifted, to taking up jihad in Syria? How do you think that happened?
- [15:48]
B
Just like what had happened with tens of thousands of others who volunteered at the time. You know, Syria was similar, you know, at the beginning of the second decade of the millennium to the Spanish civil war in the 1930s, there was a dictator who did not give an inch, not even an inch, you know, to the demands of his people. And they were legitimate demands. He was a North Korea style dictator who inherited the presidency from his father through fake elections. And there was so much to hate about him. But the fact of the matter is he did not give in into any of the demands. And the demands were at the beginning, very reasonable, like pluralistic elections, all of that. I mean, and because of that, people around the region started to feel that his repression of his people was ugly and getting uglier and uglier to the point where it become more or less a cause for those who care about justice. Of course, later it was corrupted, unfortunately, by the arrival of Al Qaeda. And then after that, Daesh and I said that many times. But at the beginning, and especially with the defections of many of the Assad regime officers to a newly created body called the Free Syrian army was encouraging. I myself was very supportive of the Free Syrian army from 2012 and all the way until the middle of 2013. However, by mid 2013, it became clear that Al Qaeda came to town and they brought ISIS with them. And I felt that this is a hijacking of the revolution and are you righteous revolution. A revolution with right demands, right motives. And I feel it's been morphed into a monstrous ideological, jihadist, global jihadist agenda. Look, I will say something that might shock some of the listeners here. I have no problem with the concept of jihad. In fact, you know, the concept of jihad itself is in itself is actually, if we apply it as it was supposed to be applied, it's a tool. It's a useful tool because it's supposed to be pushing away injustice. If we use it for this way, a jihad against tyranny. Who could argue against that so in my opinion, people like Ernst Hemingway and George Orwell, they were themselves, in a sense, a lefty jihadist, basically, who went
- [18:32]
A
to Spain by traveling to Spain during the civil war.
- [18:34]
B
Exactly because they saw injustice and they wanted to right the wrongs of that injustice. And Ibrahim was no different. My nephew was subjected to a barrage of news after news after news. And many of his friends in Saudi Arabia at the time, where he grew up and lived were Syrians who themselves left to go back there in order to fight against Assad. And he felt also that earlier, and this is one of the other motivations, is that one of our cousins. So my cousin Abd al Rahman, who was also a friend and the same age almost of Ibrahim, went there in March of 2013 and died in Damascus with Nusra fighting against Assad in May of 2013. So already the death of a friend there might have motivated him and was
- [19:33]
A
a friend and a cousin. So a family member.
- [19:36]
B
Exactly, a friend and a cousin of ours. Basically, he left there to fight and he died. And that might have motivated them. I remember the death of my math teacher when I was young in Saudi Arabia was the first catalyst was exploring jihad, because he died in Bosnia in 1992. Two years later, I was there. I was 14 when he died. So, of course, basically I was just too young to travel. And so when I had the chance, I left and I never looked back. And I think it's the same with Ibrahim. I think the death of his relative and friend, Abd al Rahman might have awakened within him the spirit of solidarity and sacrifice. That solidarity means nothing if you are not willing to really stand with those who are oppressed and risk it all.
- [20:28]
A
So he joined a Nusra, Ibrahim did he?
- [20:31]
B
Because at the time, it's either a Nusra or Daesh. So at least, thank God he did not join. And even with a Nusra, he actually joined a faction that was on the periphery of a Nusra that was more, I would say, moderate. It was with a jihadi commander. His name is Abu Isa Sheikh, who is now, by the way, the governor of Aleppo. So that says something.
- [20:56]
A
We'll get to that towards the end of this episode, because obviously, my God, back in 2013, no one would have foreseen what actually has come about. But do you remember having any conversations with Ibrahim before he left? Were you aware that he was seducible by the call to jihad as you had been as a young man? Similarly romantic, idealist, motivated by a distaste for injustice? I mean, you must have thought I left responding to the call of jihad in Bosnia, I ended up in Al Qaeda. Here's my nephew, he's responding to the call of jihad. He's in Al Qaeda. That must have hung quite heavily upon you. Did you have any chance to talk to him?
- [21:41]
B
Let me put it this way. I had back and forth texts with him, especially as he was crossing Turkey. And I was warning him, I was saying, look, my worry is the fact that it's now contaminated. The whole revolution now is being contaminated by Al Qaeda ideology. And I don't want you to be there contaminated by it. You know, I want you to remember that the path of Al Qaeda there in Afghanistan led to 911 and led to catastrophe. And he was actually against what happened 9 11. But he said to me, uncle, it's not about Al Qaeda or 911 for me. Al Qaeda is a vehicle, you know, to my destination. My destination is to support these, you know, oppressed people and to get revenge from that awful dictator. And of course, I mean, why? I mean, it's only after he gave me his entire reassurances that he is immune to the takfir ideology, that he is not going to be recruited to go and fight jihad somewhere else around the world in Paris or London or in Rome or whatever. After he gave me all of these assurances, I felt slightly better. I said to him, look, please, you know, remember that once you are there, you will be subjected to so many of these ideological battles and influences and you might be pressured to join groups that will tell you, well, you know, why don't we like, you know, basically go and, you know, fight the jihad back in Saudi Arabia or in Bahrain or in Kuwait or whatever. And he assured me that this will not happen and that he is mature enough to remember the dark days of Al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia and how they were really affecting lackna. I mean, the overall safety, stability of the country. And he was against it.
- [23:39]
A
That text message exchange, as you said, was happening as your nephew was traveling through Turkey on his way to Syria, smuggling himself in. Were you in contact with his father, your brother, at that time? I imagine his parents must have been besides themselves with worry. What was that like?
- [24:00]
B
You will be surprised actually, that my brother, the oldest brother and his wife basically are, you know, Salafists. And so at that time, his mother was not happy with it. His father, you know, grudgingly gave in because he said, look, I'm going, I'm going with your blessing or without it. So I would rather be with your blessing. And it was after like really weeks of pressure and persuasion by him that I'm going, I'm going, you know, whether, you know, you like it or not. So and the problem is, like, you know, I mean, my brother, like, you know, I mean, wasn't in a legal, you know, situation that will allow him to, you know, restrict his son's travel. And also he cannot report his son to the authorities, that he will be, you know, detained for being suspected of trying to join a terrorist organization. But because they knew that his mission, his intention was not to be a terrorist, but actually to go and fight for the sake of those who were oppressed and fighting against a despicable regime who was committing genocide. And even by that time, already a chemical weapon attack happened, massacres happened already. So the, the general atmosphere in the Arab street at the time was so anti acid. So I think they gave in after he gave them the same reassurances he gave me. And then after that, he of course went inside Syria. But throughout July, throughout August, he was in constant touch with his father. So his father was always assuring me that he's okay, he's fine. This is 2013, 2013, July and August 2013. And even in one of the cases he was telling us about how he survived the barrel attack, he said, I could read the writing on the barrel as it was crashing into the ground. So he survived it. And he told us about the aftermath and how it was horrific in terms of maimed kids. I would later see that myself four months later when I sneaked into Syria, basically in September, late September, early October of 2013, it was only for two days and I was risking so many things to do that. The reality is that comes the 3rd of September, he sent us a message. He said, I'm off to the front line. Don't worry if I don't get in touch. But do you know where he was on day? Yeah, I was aware that he was in Jabal Arbaen, an area near Ariha, near Saraqb, south of Idlib, north of Hama province. So I was aware where he was. And then he didn't check out with, check in with us on, you know, 4th of September, 5th of September. There was nothing at that time. My brother, his father, I was with him in Bahrain. He dropped me to the airport and he said, strange, like, I mean, for 48 hours he didn't send anything. I hope everything is okay. He dropped me to the airport and I took a flight back to Dubai where I used to live at that time. And you Know, it was only an hour flight. So when I landed and I switched on my phone and I had more than 50 plus messages coming from so many people sending me condolences. And I'm thinking, oh, my God, like, you know, basically, what was that? And of course I realized, like, I know it is, you know, related to Ibrahim and that the news that he was killed. So I remember, like, I was walking towards, you know, the immigration counter, you know, in Dubai, and I'm still in shock and actually, like, I'm still like in a. Visibly upset and visibly, like in a basic. I have to. But I'm. I'm just. I remember I was wearing my Arabic thing. I was just like in drying my tears, like in the best. Just giving him the passport and hoping he doesn't ask any questions. And he said, are you okay? I said, like, I just landed and I found there was a death in the family. My nephew died, but I didn't tell him where and how. And all of that, he came out of the cubicle, like, you know, basically to shake my hand and to give me a hug and all of that, like in. I mean, and which, you know, shows always the warmth of, you know, Arab and especially Bedouin mentality. And so I went back to my home in Dubai. I was still standing. The car. The car was driving me all the way back to my home. And I was still thinking, you know, was it real? Was it really? You know, I want to know the details, but I don't want to ask my brother because I know he is going to be distraught. And I remember, like, I had several meetings the next day, but can you believe it? I slept the whole day, you know, I didn't leave bed the next day. And because I was, you know, I just couldn't care about work or anything or where I'm supposed to go.
- [29:05]
A
Morning strikes people in different ways. Eamon, clearly you were plunged into an immediate depression and didn't want to get out of your bed.
- [29:12]
B
Absolutely. So when the next day, I was able to speak to my brother, Lakina Amin, and he was holding up better than I did. And I asked him exactly what happened. And he said he was with Abu Isa Sheikh, who is now, as a city, like in a. Basically one of the leading figures in the new government. But he was with him. They were at Jabal Arbaeen and there was an attack by, you know, ironically, not even Syrians, you know, so it was by a contingent of both Iranian Quds Force members and the Lebanese Hezbollah. So what happened is they were up at the mountains. So basically the Hezbollah people were using heavy machine guns to shoot at the base of the mountain to create dust. So suddenly now there is dust at the base of the mountain, so they can't see what's happening. And so they went behind them. And so when they went behind them, they deliberately wore headgear that looks like jihadists. And so my nephew was given the order to just check with them, you know, who they are, which unit, and are they the enforcement, are they the reinforcements? And so when he just stepped few steps ahead to just check their identity and greet them, he was shot straight away, 30 times, I was told, like in a whole AK47 machine. So he and five others were killed and the rest basically were able to retreat, but the place was taken. They were able to retake the hill just 17 hours later. And so they were able to recover the six bodies, including my nephew. And he is buried there in Saraqb, and his headstone says Abu Khalil Al Bahraini. That's his alias there.
- [31:08]
A
Have you visited him there, Ayman, and prayed at his grave?
- [31:12]
B
Yeah, this is when it was in September, October of 2013, when I went completely secretly without anyone, just one person helping me. Like in a. Basically I paid him a lot of money, like in a. Basically just to be smuggled into that place and then out.
- [31:28]
A
So I went in order to visit the grave. You smuggled into the grave?
- [31:31]
B
In order to visit the grave and to see what happened, where it happened. And so by that time, you know, there were lots of people, you know, stationed there. I couldn't visit where he was killed because it was, you know, a front line and there were many Al Qaeda people there. Some of them might recognize me. And so I couldn't. But at least basically, I went to that place and I thought, goodness. And I remember the condolences I received, especially from many of my former officers and handlers in MI6 telling me he died for what he believed in. And the fact that the manner in which he was killed, he was killed by people who came to enforce tyranny and oppression. And he was there to lift off that tyranny and oppression. So they were trying to comfort me, but also at the same time, they were pointing out something that it's not clear cut. It's not like, you know, I mean, jihadists versus, you know, paramilitaries. Jihadist, jihad, good people, bad people. Like, I mean, it's not a clear cut here, but. But when I always reflect on it, for everyone who understand Arabic, there is a Beautiful, beautiful saying. Some of it is attributed to the Prophet Muhammad, which says that the lesson, the true lesson, the true meaning is in the outcome. So for me, I still remember that in December 8, when Damascus fell and Assad escaped, for me, that was a vindication that he was in the right side of history and that his death was not in vain. Because I was always having that pain. Every time I see Acid, smiling, smarmy, you know, his psychopathic face and expression still there in power, I always think that he died in vain. But then when I saw the soldiers and the warriors of the revolution in the Umayyad Mosque celebrating and waving the flag of the revolution, somehow I felt, finally I can come to terms with what happened. And finally I can say that he died for a higher cause and that his death was not in vain, because I can see it in the tears of happiness and the laughter and the joy and the euphoria of the people who were in the streets of all the liberated cities in Syria. So that's, you know, what maybe changed my perspective and made me support the new president, Ahmad Al Shara, because he is the one who in my opinion, finally killed the idea, the nonsense idea of global jihadism and brought back the purpose of jihad into the right path, where it is supposed to be a tool to fight injustice and to remove it when those in power and those who are trying to oppress people do not listen to reason and instead apply force, brutal force, lethal force against their own people just in order to stay in power.
- [35:35]
A
I wonder, Eamon, if, in addition to feeling so mournfully vindicated last December on behalf of your poor nephew, I wonder if in fact you also felt some vindication on behalf of that young teenage Amon Dean, who also went on a jihad hoping to combat injustice and defend the oppressed, found himself mixed up in some pretty dark shit and has struggled to defend Muslims from falling foul of global jihadism by joining what, in the eyes of so many Muslims, was the enemy of Islam, you took that great risk to defend them and were often not thanked for it. And yet deep inside your heart had always been a thirst for justice. And you must have often wondered if the spirit of jihad was ever legitimate, if it's all just, just evil. And to see now in Syria, 30 years later, 30 years to see jihad having reached the absolute depths of villainy with isis, and then emerging now, we all hope in what seems to be, and God knows we're all holding out hope, seems to be a new, reasonable, relatively pluralistic, pragmatic Syrian government led by a man who was an Al Qaeda operative, brought Al Qaeda to Syria. You know, it's an amazing story. So I wonder if you also felt like that young Amandine had been vindicated.
- [37:28]
B
You see, I always felt that the journey of Abu Muhammad Al Julani, AKA now Ahmad Al Shara, President Ahmad al Shara of Syria, I felt that his journey of enlightenment mirrored mine to some degree. Most likely it could have happened in prison, when he was in Mosul, in the prison there with his American jailers. And then from there, definitely he saw that there is no point of leaving and trying to change from outside. You have to change from inside. It is the first ever case of a radical organization being de radicalized by its secretly de radicalized leader who also de radicalized the top tier around him himself. That's what I felt as a vindication. The vindication that if we bring jihad back as a tool of the state and a tool to fight injustice, true injustice, and not to morph it into an ideological tool to create transnational empires, then yes, a jihad in the hands of the state is far more powerful. And this is what I said always throughout my debates with many anti Muslim, anti Islamic activists. For example, like, you know, in the UK when they tell me, like, you know, the Quran is full of verses that encourage jihad, and not only that, but obligate jihad on Muslims. And I say that until the 1950s, our understanding of jihad was that it's an action, an act by the state, it's a prerogative of the state, only the state deploy violence, individuals can't. So if Muslims for 1300 years understood jihad to be a tool of the state, a prerogative of the state, that only the state can deploy violence in its own defense, internally and externally, then how come suddenly jihad morphed into something that group of individuals on a whim could coalesce together and then declare it on their own? That was not what jihad was. And this is how we understood it before. And so therefore, when you see lone wolves and people who take action on their own and shout Allahu Akbar and besmirch the name of God, you know, to justify their murderous acts as a act of holy war, this is when you say, wait a minute, deployment of violence is reserved for the head of the state and for the state and not for individuals, where did that glitch happen? And I explained it many times. I don't want to go into too much details. And I say that the glitch happened, that the two glitches, actually two glitches happened in the 1950s when Sayyid Qutb introduced two errors in the code of Islam. The first error was to say that jihad can be waged by individuals coalescing together to create a jihadist embryonic stage to overthrow the state and to wait jihad on their own for whatever cause
- [41:11]
A
they feel like a Muslim vanguard of the proletariat, basically.
- [41:14]
B
Exactly. And also related to that, the second error in the code, the second virus in the code, I would say, like, you know, basically that he inserted into the Islamic code is introducing socialism into Islam when in fact Islam has always been, if we apply objective, very objective narrative and analysis, we will see that it is by today's standards a free market, almost right wing, economically capitalist religion. So where did, you know. And monarchist. So where did socialism come from? So suddenly he inserted these two viruses into the Islamic code that first, violence can be carried out by individuals. Suddenly these verses of the Quran became abused, you know, used and abused by all of these groups that emerged after that. So it's the 1950s and also socialism, the idea of the, as you said, the vanguard of the proletariats. But in this case, he called it like the vanguard of the victorious. And this is, I think, when the contamination, the corruption of the concept of jihad really took shape in the modern Muslim era.
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A
Well, Eamon, we seem to be reaching the end of that phase of modern Islam. Let's hope it is the case. Global jihad, it seems, is on the wane. We will discuss this and many other things, including President Ahmed Ashara when we get back from this break. But first, thank you so much, Ayman, for sharing the way in which the Syrian civil war touched you personally and your family. You know, we hear a lot about foreign fighters in Syria. We still hear a lot about them. They're usually portrayed as bad actors that need to be controlled or somehow run out of town. But the presence in Syria of foreign fighters is a real part of that long civil war. And they weren't all bad actors in that way. A lot of them were like your nephew Ibrahim, as you say, hoping to do his bit to further justice. Well, dear listeners, I hope you enjoyed that trip down memory lane. I do think it's a powerful story that Eamonn told very well, quite movingly there. And as I said at the beginning, the reason I chose to reissue this episode today is because yesterday the President of America, President Trump, he notified Congress, as he is required to do, of his intention to remove Syria from the State Sponsors of terrorism list. This move has been a Long time coming. Since the fall of Bashar al Assad on 8 December 2024, the Shara government has done as much as it can to show that it is determined to, well, really to continue the counterterrorism cooperation that it began vis a vis the United States and its allies years ago in the fight against the Islamic State. Since coming to power, Shahr has arrested senior figures associated with Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine who had still had the freedom to operate in Assad, Syria, until the very end. And so that was an important sign that he was not going to continue the previous regime's policy as regards its cooperation with Palestinian terrorists. As we all know, the new Shara government has seriously curtailed Iranian and Hezbollah military access to Syri, Syria or through Syria, disrupting all those weapons smuggling networks and the drug networks or at least attempting to crack down on the drug networks that were funding Hezbollah and Iran's, quote, unquote, axis of resistance. Now, obviously, there are lots and lots of challenges for Syria ahead. Thousands of foreign Islamist fighters remain there. You know, at the end of that old episode, I did say some nice things about those fighters, at least some of those fighters. But, you know, in the year since that episode aired, there have been sporadic problems across the country related to the presence in Syria of jihadist fighters. So that remains a problem. But the main point is, despite the presence in Syria of some Islamist fighters, jihadist fighters, despite, you know, lingering problems with ISIS and so on, the United States now believes that the Syrian state has really changed sides strategically. I mean, this is a big, big, big change and, you know, we will see what it means. Yesterday, Aaron Zelen, friend of the show, who's been on many times to talk about Syria and is a real world expert on Syria, he posted on X this Trump is expected to announce the state sponsor of terrorism removal during his meeting with Shara today. State sponsor of terrorism removal will have limited impact unless Syria also reforms its banking sector and aligns with international standards and best practices for international business. Next steps now rest with Damascus. And that is really the truth. Once it is removed from the state sponsor of terrorism list, there will be far fewer obstacles to Syria properly integrating into the global economy, into global finance, etc. It will require Shara, as Zelen says, to reform its banking and financial sector and all of those things. So I believe that Shara is going to do this. He certainly wants to do it. I think on balance we can say we hope that he does. It will allow for much needed capital to flow into Syria to fund the tremendous development that is required not only to, let's say, put the country back together after all those years of devastating war, but also to develop it so that Syria can catch up with all the other places in the region and elsewhere, places like Turkey, places like the Gulf, even places like Iraqi Kurdistan that has experienced a lot of positive development. If development can take place in Syria and let it be, oh God, let it be the kind of development that actually serves the people and doesn't just feather the nests of rich people else elsewhere. But if that development can take place, then it will be a very important step on the road to Syria becoming a place of dignity and prosperity once again. We can all hope for that. Dear listeners, thank you for listening. As I say, there'll be an episode with Eamon released on Tuesday, and he'll explain everything that's been going on with this resumption of hostilities between the Islamic Republic and the United States. Until then, stay well. Conflicted is a message heard. Production Our executive producers are Jake Warren and Max Warren. This episode was produced and edited by Thomas Small.