← CONFLICTED
Loading summary
Transcript133 lines
- [00:01]
A
Hello, dear listeners, welcome back to Conflicted. Eamonn is not here this week, and instead I have the able substitute, dear friend of the show, Waseem Nasser is back. Waseem, how are you, man?
- [00:16]
B
Fine, fine, thank you, Thomas.
- [00:17]
A
It's so nice to see your friendly, smiling face. You know, before we get started, I just think we need to discuss the latest battle in a very long running war. I'm talking centuries long. And I'm not talking about Iran versus the West. I'm not talking about Israel versus the Arabs. I'm of course, talking about France versus England. What a third place match that was, man. I'm sorry for your loss. That's all I can say. I'm sorry for your loss.
- [00:50]
B
I didn't expect this anyways.
- [00:53]
A
Did you watch that? Did you watch it?
- [00:55]
B
No. Oh, it disappointed you?
- [00:59]
A
It's a shame, man. Just goal after goal after goal. It was really. It was brilliant. It was like being back, you know, on Agincourt or something. We were really.
- [01:09]
B
I heard people screaming, by the way.
- [01:12]
A
I bet you did. Oh, man. Anyway, you're not here to talk about football. Of course you're not. What you're here to talk about, dear listeners, what Waseem is here to talk about is the visit he recently took or with the President of France, Emmanuel Macron, to Syria, to Damascus. A historic visit, the first visit by an EU head of state to Syria since the fall of Bashar Al Assad. And so, Waseem, very kindly, you're back on the show to tell us what you saw, what you heard, what you know, not just about Macron's visit, but about lots of other stuff as well. Let's get right into it. Okay, Wasim, the first question for me, the most important question, and possibly you're the best man in the world to ask. You were there, part of the presidential press party. You followed Emmanuel Macron as he, with President Ahmed Ashara of Syria, traveled around Damascus to the palace, to the Umayyad mosque. Here and there you were on the ground. So you are the best person to ask, why doesn't the President of France ever remove his sunglasses?
- [02:26]
B
Well, my friend, he has an issue with one of his eyes, like a kind of sensitivity to light, so he doesn't take them off. And as you witnessed, it wasn't the first time he had them. And he had them also in Ankara at the NATO, at the NATO summit, you see. So I noticed it's an issue with his eye, like sensitivity to light. And I'm gonna tell you a secret. He had his sunglasses in the Plane.
- [02:57]
A
Oh, well, you know, now I feel rather repentant for asking that question because I, you know, seeing him, you know, just in the news, I just thought maybe he's taking the lead from, you know, old Arab leaders of yesteryear, like, you know, Hosni Mubarak and Saddam Hussein. And they like the shades as well, you know.
- [03:16]
B
Ain't the same vibe, Thomas. Ain't the same vibe.
- [03:18]
A
It's not the same vibe. You're right. Okay, now we can get serious. I've got my jokes out of the way. On the 6th and 7th of July this year. So just a couple of weeks ago, President Emmanuel Macron visited Ahmed Ashara, President of Syria, in Damascus. You were part of the presidential press party. You reported from Damascus. From what you've just said, I guess you were on the plane with the President on the flight over. Can you just kind of paint for us a picture of what that's like? What is the buzz like in. In the presidential press party on a state visit like that?
- [03:52]
B
Well, actually, there was two kinds of press, if I may say so. So there was a very small delegation with the President. In the plane were like, 30 people and just two journalists. So I was there as a journalist, of course, but also as an expert and as someone who met Sharah more than one time, as you know, as we said on this show, as early as the beginning of 23, then after the fall of Assad, and then in par, etc. And so I was there for my expertise, if I may say so. And it was kind of like a gesture, you know, from the president, because I think that the work I did, like, helped to open the eyes of at least the European community and France and maybe the international community about what was already going on in Idlib, you see, and then they knew who they were dealing with when Assad fell and Shara took over Damascus. So it was a gesture. I didn't expect it, to be honest. I worked with many advisors before to prepare the visit, so I was aware of it, like, a month before the date, and then at the last minute, I was, like, invited to be part of the delegation.
- [05:01]
A
Wow, what an honor.
- [05:02]
B
Yeah, I guess it is. Because it makes you think that your work as a researcher, as a journalist had an impact, you see?
- [05:11]
A
Yeah.
- [05:12]
B
And so I was part of the delegation in the presidential plane. And the good thing about this is that you get to talk to the people who are on board, meaning military advisors, meaning I spoke even with the President himself for more than 40 minutes in the plane before landing. In Damascus. So I couldn't see Damascus from the sky because I was discussing issues with the president.
- [05:34]
A
Wow. Now, okay, Waseem, that's incredible. 40 minutes in conversation with President Macron. Can I just ask you. We've heard you on the show describe Ahmed Ashara, but would you describe for us, you know, and obviously, in a way that won't get you in trouble, would you describe for us what. What President Macron is like in person?
- [05:53]
B
Well, can I tell you about this issue, about the Syria issue, and the fact that I was on the plane. He was really listening and taking into consideration our discussion and the discussions he had with others. Of course, because I wasn't alone on that plane. And this is a good thing about a leader, when you understand that he is listening and interacting, you know, not just like listening for. For listening. And it. It was obvious in his speech that he took in consideration things that we discussed. And it's really, at least for a researcher and for a journalist, it's really pleasant to see that it's not just a discussion with the head of state who wasn't even listening, you see. So that's what I can say about him, because I don't know him more than that. You see, I met him once or twice in official, like, dinners or happenings, but this is the first time that we really discussed the. One more time. It is pleasant to see that a world leader like him listens, actually. Yeah. You know, because many leaders don't.
- [06:54]
A
It reminds me of the. I mean, I, I don't have your experience, of course, but I have been privileged to have a few meetings with the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, Muhammad bin Salman. Prince Muhammad. And I, you know, I was equally impressed by how. How. How well briefed he was, how on point he was. His questions were intelligent, he was listening, he was engaged. And you and I had, you know, I've had some interactions with similarly powerful men in the past, and they weren't that way at all. So it is nice when you encounter. When you have an encounter like that.
- [07:23]
B
Yeah. And as you said, as you said, President Macro had the good questions. He was really aware of the situation, politically, militarily, and he was aware, which is maybe the most important thing, he was aware about the limits of the political action he can take and the limits of the political action that Ahmad Al Shara could take, you know, and this, I think, put the stage for good and fruitful discussions between the two men.
- [07:50]
A
Okay, well, before we land you in Damascus, I just wanted to raise something which I read in the media. And perhaps you have some experience of this or perhaps you were aware of it. I read that on the flight, 23 Syrian archaeological objects that had been in France since 2011. So these had been lent to a Paris exhibition in France, but then, then when the civil war broke out, they were never returned. So these objects included Roman, Byzantine and Islamic artifacts and a mosaic associated with the Umayyad Mosque, which will come up later in our conversation. So you were aware of these 23 Syrian archaeological objects on the flight?
- [08:38]
B
Yes, I was, because I know very well the former concierge of Macron on Middle east and North African affairs, which is Anne Claire Legendre, and she is actually now the head of the Arab Institute in Paris. And this is a gesture that she wanted to make towards the Syrians, because of course, it belongs to them. But this is a gesture of trust in the new authorities to give them back those artifacts. And you have to know also that unclear. Legendre was really one of the most important persons that pushed for Charlotte to visit Paris, because as you said, Macron was the first EU president, the first also secretary council president to visit Damascus. But Paris was also the first Western capital to be visited by Shara. And it was unclear Le Jean behind that visit too.
- [09:27]
A
A reminder of the very close, you know, deep ties between France and Syria, which clearly still exist. How would you describe, you know, those ties now in 2026, you know, just let's say, what, 80 years or so since the, the French colonial presence in Syria ended. You know, what are the ties between Syria and France today?
- [09:51]
B
Well, you have really historical ties, as you said. But regarding the situation today, the most important tie is the fact that France did not change its stand towards Assad all along the 14 years of war. And France was harbored Caesar of the Caesar dossier who exposed the killings made by the Syrian Syrian army with pictures, if you remember. Yeah. And it went all the way to the Congress and to the US at the time. And actually he had political asylum here in France. And France prosecuted many of the regime. Not many, but a few for regime, a few regime figures. And the latest was Rifat Al Assad, the brother of Hafez al Assad. And you talked about artifacts, but at the same occasion, $50 million it was deal that they will be sent back to Syria. $50 million who belonged to Rifat al Assad. So taken bank account here in France. So I think that despite the long history, as you said, the most important thing today is the new trust relation between France and the new authorities because of The French stand during those 14 years of war. And also because if you remember, you remember when Barack Obama draw the red lines.
- [11:09]
A
Oh yes.
- [11:10]
B
Regarding using chemical weapons. And if you recall at the time, France and I can tell you was ready to bomb Assad at the time in 2013. And they even armed the Rafaels, they even armed the planes, the jets to bomb. But at the last minute Obama backed and said I need to have the approval of the Congress. And it never happened. And 2013 was really a breaking point. Oh yes, 2013 was the emergence of the Islamic State. 2014 you had Crimea 15 the Russian intervenes in Syria. So it unfolded after this moment where the red lines were not respected.
- [11:48]
A
I see, so that's very interesting. So all along the civil war, France remained firmly in support of the anti acid forces in Syria. Yes, and never wavered on that. Because I know towards the end of the war when it seemed that Assad had survived, that changed for most countries. A lot of people thought, oh, we're going to have to deal with Assad. But France remained firmly opposed to him, my friend.
- [12:14]
B
Even the actual today backers of the new government, all of them, the most important, were trying to make deals with Assad. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, if you talk about Europe, the Italians were really pushing to normalize the ties with Assad. The Italians even went as far as when they got, for example, and permit this small story when they got a big shipment of captagon, you know, of drugs was caught in Italy. They went over the way saying that it was manufactured by the Islamic State, not to accuse Assad while it came from Latakia port. So there was no Islamic State in Latakia. But you see, so, so and France stood firm against all this. I don't know maybe if it would have lasted longer, what to have happened. But actually in France all the voices were steady and were like against normalization with, with Assad. And this I guess is appreciated by, by the Nusra authorities. Despite one fact which is very important. At one point in time, before the Syrians taking over the northeast, meaning against Kurdish led forces, there was a little bit of doubt because the new Syrian authority thought that France was backing the Kurdish forces who wanted to split from Syria. That was a perception. But perceptions are very important in wars. And they saw actually when they took over the northeast and they respected their part of the deal. France did not back the Kurdish led forces. They backed the new authorities. And this is also what Macron said in his press conference when he was asked about this. He said, you are with the unity of Syria, we are backing this government and we don't want Syria to be divided. So this put an end to this, maybe a little distrust between the two authorities.
- [13:59]
A
I know that after your time in Damascus as part of the presidential press party, you spent some time in Kobani, and we're going to talk about that at the end of the conversation. So you can tell us all about the efforts that are being undertaken now to unify the SDF's old forces with the government's forces. But for now, the 6th of July, the plane lands. President Macron is officially met by the Syrian Foreign Minister at the airport. They're taken to, you know, the official residence in the Four Seasons Hotel. And then after meeting Ahmed Ashara formally, the two men go on a walk of the old city of Damascus at night. And, you know, I lived in Damascus. I was very privileged to spend a year of my life living in Damascus in 2007, 2008. And seeing the images of their walk together down and obviously into the Umayyad Mosque, it opened the floodgates of memory for me. And it brought such warmth to my heart to see that happening. You were there. What was the energy like during the walkabout?
- [15:05]
B
Well, actually, they went out of the plane, they took dinner in Damascus. I wasn't at that dinner, so I went straight to the Umayyad Mosque. And yes, they were there. And it was really, as you said, something like historic something, and you said the relation between the two men was really warm, if I may say so. So they walked in the yard and then they entered the mosque. I was able to go into the mosque too, because, you know, the press was not allowed to go, to go inside. But I went inside because actually I know the two teams, you know, from the security to the president, so everyone, you know, everyone. So in a way, nobody stopped me, you see. So I was like, walking next to them with the ministers and. Because, you know, I. It's not for, like, just taking a picture, but it was really important for me to be. To feel the. The atmosphere, you see. So I was there and it was really Bonafour, as you say in. In France, like, informal, you see, unformal, Voila, informal. And then Macron sat down to sign the golden. The golden book. Yeah, that's how you say it, a
- [16:14]
A
sort of visitor's book of. Of the mosque.
- [16:16]
B
Yeah, the visitor's book. And he. A nice. A nice text talking about the history of Syria since centuries, etcetera, and being written and rewritten and, you know, that it's only the visitor who writes in the book. So at one point, when Sharab wanted to stand, Macron took him by the hand and he sat him down. So people did not understand what was happening. Oh, yeah. And so. And so Macron asked Chara to write. To write something him too. And people don't understand, but actually it's a way to say that you talked about colonialism and. Etc, and it's a way to say that we are equal. And you should also mark this moment, historic moment, by a few words.
- [16:57]
A
You know, Gosh, you know what? I actually am slightly moved to tears right now. You're moving me to tears. This is so powerful.
- [17:06]
B
Yeah, no, it was really powerful because the series did not understand why was he, like, sitting. He took him by the head and he, like, forced him to sit down and they were like, what's happening? And actually it was to tell him, you are equal. You also. We are writing history together, you know, so it was really meaningful. And it was me who explained it to the serious. And so Shara wrote his nice word too. Then he looked up and saw me and he was. He laughed, you know, and was like. He laughed and he said, you're all over the place, you know, in front of everybody, because the press was not allowed, you know.
- [17:43]
A
Well, I read that Macron's note in the Visitor book, as you say, the word in English is palimpsest. So he made reference to the mosque as a symbol of Syrian history in that, you know, Syrian history, dear listeners, Syria's history goes back about as far as it is possible to go. And so the whole country is a palimpsest, that is to say, a kind of manuscript or a piece of parchment on which many, many things have been written and overwritten. And overwritten. And the mosque itself symbolizes this. It's built on the foundations of an ancient pagan, like a Syrian pagan temple that then became a Roman temple, that then became a Christian church, that then became a mosque. And I guess this is a little bit, you know, I don't know, this is a bit airy fairy, maybe. But it does seem to me that choosing the Umayyad mosque for this event is a powerful statement of something that Ahmed Ashara is trying to do. He's sort of resurrecting the memory of the Umayyad period in Syria as a way, it seems to me. And maybe, you know, I've drunk the Ahmad Ashara Kool Aid or something, but it seems to me he's trying to say that, look, in the Umayyad period, we did live together in a. Some in something like harmony.
- [18:58]
B
Yes.
- [18:59]
A
Each of us kind of in our own cultural world. There were Muslims, there were Christians, some people were Romanized, some people were Hellenized, some people were Syrian, et cetera. And I think it does seem he's trying to resurrect this image of the Umayyad period as a symbol of what Syria could be today.
- [19:15]
B
Yes, I think that of power, but also of tolerance, because the Christians were part of the Umayyad state. They were not only tolerated, they were part of it, they contributed to it. And I guess that's the idea that. That's the idea after like 50 years of bashisim. That's his idea. And it's also very. A place where, as you said, it was a church and it is a mosque. And it's also the white merit in Manar al Baydah. This is also where the minaret of the Umayyad Mosque. This is where supposedly the Christ will come back at the end of time. You see?
- [19:51]
A
That's right.
- [19:52]
B
So you have many esoteric. You have historic aspect, esoteric aspect. And you have also the political aspect of having a French president being the first Western president to enter the White Basque. If you also recall all the colonial history and even the history of the Crusades where the French played a big role.
- [20:11]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:12]
B
So it's like pacification, you know, like pacification. We are starting something new.
- [20:16]
A
I think we should be fair and say as well that the memory of the Umayyad caliphate is one that Shia would find particularly difficult to reconcile themselves with. So I think there might be, you know, there might be a way in which the Sunni Islamist party, which is part of Ahmad Azhara's, you know, governing ethos or ideology or coalition, obviously comes from that world. You know, they might also be given a little bit of red meat because it seems very anti Shia to. To invoke that memory. Anyway, so after the walkabout in the Old City and the signing of the visitor's book in the Old City, in the Umayyad Mosque, what happened next?
- [20:53]
B
But you had, as I told you, airport dinner, the walk, the Umayyad Mosque, then Mount Kasyoun, the hills of Kasyoun that are over Damascus. And there also they sat and they talked. I was there. And the ministers, the French ministers were there and some Syrian ministers, Shibani was there and they stayed like, at least like 40 minutes an hour, talking on the hill of Kasyoun and with Damascus at their feet.
- [21:21]
A
Wow. Beautiful.
- [21:21]
B
That was also very, very historic. Moment. It's like you're in a movie.
- [21:26]
A
More memories are flooding back, because I remember I loved to go to Mount Kosiyoun. Many. There are many historic sites on Mount Kasiun, including the cave where, according to Islamic tradition, Cain buried Abel, his brother after murdering him. But also the mausoleum, the mosque, mausoleum of the great Sufi saint Ibn Arabi, which I used to go visit regularly because I have a certain fondness for him. And. Oh, so they were there. Now, what language would they have been speaking? Does. Does Ahmed Al Shara speak French?
- [21:56]
B
No, but he understands English. But he speaks in Arabic. So they had the interpreters with them, both of them. But Shara understands very well English, but he doesn't speak in English. He speaks Arabic and I guess Macron. I don't know if he spoke French or English. I guess he spoke English. What I can tell you is like the security in Damascus. From the minute we landed till the minute we went back to the Four Seasons, it was like maximum security. You had hundreds of policemen and security officers in the streets. The convoy was like huge, the presidential convoy. And we took the highway, we took some streets that we shouldn't take, and it was really like, it was really set to be to work, you know.
- [22:44]
A
Well, which is, of course, I suppose, somewhat ironic, because the following day in the morning, you know, the president, President Macron, woke up in the Four Seasons. He had a meeting there at the hotel with some civil society actors. I read.
- [22:59]
B
Yes, and with the Hannaj Alouf that we talked about many times here. Do you know the priest that I met in Idlib in 23 who became Archbishop of Aleppo? And I talked to the president about him in the plane, and he invited him to that breakfast. You know, Hanna Jalouf was a hostage of Dunus Rafah.
- [23:17]
A
Yes.
- [23:18]
B
You remember the story?
- [23:19]
A
I remember the story, but maybe the listeners don't just summarize it.
- [23:23]
B
Well, Hanna Jalouf, he's a priest, a Catholic priest, Franciscan, in Idlib. So he stayed in Idlib. He didn't want to leave. And at one time he was taken hostage by the Nusra Front, and he stayed. And then he talked to Ahmad Al Shara and they understood each other and he stayed. He never left. I met him in April 2023, when they were renovating the churches in Italy, you see. And in between, in 24, he was named by the Vatican as Archbishop of Aleppo, while Aleppo was under rule of the regime, you know, of Assad. So they were smart enough at the Vatican to name him. And no one Else. So when HTS took Aleppo, Hanna Jalouf became the intermediary between them and the Christians of the city, and therefore with the Christians in the whole country. So he played a really important role at those really critical moments. So I told this story to the French president in the plane, and actually the next morning, I knew that he was also at this breakfast with the civil society, because those are real stories. We're not talking about analysis and geopolitics. Those are real stories of real people. So you see, so they have real impact.
- [24:34]
A
And there must have been many people at that breakfast for civil society that had extraordinary experiences during the period of the civil war, of the revolution. I mean, I suppose from all sectors of society, or mainly from the more. What would we call it, more progressive, more liberal sort of wing of Syrian society.
- [24:54]
B
I don't know exactly, because I wasn't at that breakfast, to be honest. But no, I think there was a real mix, you know, artists, NGOs. So actually, the archbishop. And at the breakfast also, there was the head of the French, head of which is a Christian NGO that helps Christians all over the world, but especially in countries like Syria, Iraq, Lebanon. And he was there. He came with the president, and he stayed.
- [25:18]
A
Well, you were describing the security measures that the Syrian government undertook during President Macron's visit. And as I. I said, it was slightly ironic because after that breakfast with civil society actors, the president got into his motorcade and left the hotel. And shortly after, as the whole world soon realized, two explosions went off near the Four Seasons Hotel. I mean, I suppose they were timed to coincide with the President's visit. What do we know now? I've read that one person died in the bombing, 36 were wounded, and Islamic State cell members have been arrested. So what can you tell us about the bombings now?
- [26:00]
B
Well, listen, I would take the thing the other way around. As you said, there was those two bombings, but, you know, the visit was, like, public at least one week before. So it was. If it was a real cell, organized cell of the Islamic State, they would have done something much more sophisticated. Okay, so this proves, if you take it the other way around, that they don't have the means to make something more sophisticated. What they did actually was at the other, on the other side of the highway. One bomb in a car and one bomb in a trash can. Small, very small bombs, you see. And actually, when the bombs went off, we were already at the presidential palace, which is like 10 km away from the area where it happened. So in a way, of course, we're sorry for the dead and the wounded. But politically speaking, it was good for Syria because it proved that the French president did not change his plan of the visit. The visit went on. He spoke about it on Twitter, saying, we will continue our visit. We are staying there. It was really appreciated by Shara, but mostly, and most importantly by the Syrians, by every Syrian I spoke to to. So at the end of the day, the aim of those who put those bombs was to stop this visit or to make this visit look good. Well, actually, what happened was the other way around. It gave a lot of force, a lot of more symbolism also for the visit. And I can tell you that before the Macrons coming to Damascus, as you know, there was French security people who were there before. And when they were in Damascus, if you remember, you had the bombing next to the Judicial Palace. Us, we had nine dead. And I can tell you that those security people did not advise Macron not to come because we are talking about professionals, you know. And so those same people who were like securing the convoy told Macron, okay, it went off. It's like 500 meters away. The trip can go on. And, you know, so it was, we had really everybody either on the Syrian side or on the French side, worked hard for it to work. So at the end of the day, one more time, it backfired on those who put those bombs.
- [28:13]
A
Well, you know, I suppose that's good news, as you say. It's, of course, always tragic. One man lost his life. Many, many people were wounded. A lot of people wanted to make hay from, from the situation, saying, look, you see, Ahmed Ashara has no control over the country. It's still a terrorist state. They run rampant and they're given free reign. Etc. Of course, all of that is, is untrue. There remain challenges in Syria, of course they will remain for a long time. We will just take a quick commercial break and when we get back, you'll tell us about the rest of your visit in Syria. We'll be right back with Waseem Nasser. Waseem, on the second day of President Macron's visit. Visit after he arrived at the Presidential palace for a series of bilateral meetings with Ahmed Ashara. What role did, did you play at that at that point? Were you present at all for that part of Macron's visit?
- [29:15]
B
No, no, I wasn't present at all. It was only with ministers. You know, they met more than five times, they talked more than five times. I was present at the lunch they gave at the Presidential palace with the ministers and some French Tycoons, Syrian tycoons, industrial tycoons, et cetera.
- [29:31]
A
Gosh, I love the fact that you use the word tycoon. We don't use that word enough in English anymore. What a great word. It's a great word. We don't use it. It's so expressive of the truth.
- [29:41]
B
When you have next to you the head of Total, which is the biggest, and the head of say a massage M, the biggest shipping company in the world and the number two of Airbus, the biggest airplane company. So you can say that. Okay, there are tycoons.
- [29:56]
A
Absolutely. And I guess they're signing deals, negotiating deals. What sort of economic commercial trade agreements were signed during the visit?
- [30:05]
B
The second day was only about this. So I was present at the signing of commercial agreements. The press wasn't in, but I was in. So I listened and it was really, you saw that really people want things to work. Let's see how it's going to unfold. But 70% of the visits was economic. And the fact that Macron succeeded in taking with him to Damascus dead of Total is very important because the main talks were about the pipeline between Iraqi Kurdistan and Banias. And the head of Total Puyane, he said, we did it in the 20s, we made the first pipeline from Iraq to Banyas. So it's funny, there's nothing that prevents us from doing it again 100 years after. After, you know, and this is like, like why would you listen to this only in Damascus, you know, and said by a French. Yeah, so it was really interesting. And the head of CMS doubled down on the money they're gonna invest. So we're Talking maybe about 400 billion or something like a huge figure. And they may be, they will maybe get involved in rails, you know, so not only shipping by sea because they already have the Lataki port, but maybe they'll get involved also in raid. And so they will link Syria. And of course we go back to something we. You talked a lot about in this, in your podcasts because I also listen to the podcast. So this is a, this is a way to, to like make Hormuz trade less important and making Syria a hub.
- [31:41]
A
Oh yeah.
- [31:42]
B
So it was really part of the, all the negotiations that was mostly the activity of the, of the second day that ended by the way, by giving back the artifacts that we were talking about at the beginning of our discussion.
- [31:54]
A
It sort of ended with a press conference. Lots of things were stated there. Returning those archaeological artifacts, returning those Assad linked financial assets that you said France had taken back From Refat al Assad, also, ambassadorial relations were sort of officially restored. That's a good moment.
- [32:15]
B
And the speech was excellent. The speech, both speeches of both presidents were really good. And because, for example, the French president talked about, as we said he so many times, about the harm that was done to the majority that was like, forced to leave in the SEAs, tortured, imprisoned, etc. So it wasn't like minority focused, as we tend to be sometimes in the West. And it was really appreciated, I guess, by the Syrians as a whole. I had Syrians around me from the security apparatus, from the Minister of Foreign affairs, because, you know, they were listening to someone who was translating and they come to me. Did he really say this? Yes, yes, he said this. He said this, he said this. So it was really a really important moment.
- [32:56]
A
Well, after his visit to Damascus, President Macron boarded his plane and flew to Ankara, where he participated in the NATO summit. Maybe we'll have time at the end to just quickly ask you about France's role in that summit, but before sticking with your own personal experience of the visit. If I'm not mistaken, from Damascus you went to Aleppo, where you've been before. What is the situation at the moment in Aleppo? Is rebuilding underway? What is the energy in the city? What's happening in Aleppo?
- [33:26]
B
Well, actually, the city is not rebuilding as far as we can imagine, because the money is not there yet. They have a problem in Syria because they have promises of investment, but there is not enough investments yet because I guess people were still maybe afraid or cautious because of the sanctions. Should remember that the latest sanctions, the oldest sanctions that were issued in the 70s, were just lifted, you know, like maybe two weeks ago.
- [33:55]
A
Well, in fact, I think, if I'm not mistaken, it's. They haven't actually even been technically lifted yet. The President has simply signaled to the Congress that he is going to lift them.
- [34:05]
B
You are right. You see, so people are still cautious, and they also have another issue about rebuilding. But that's a Syrian decision that they don't want to. They don't want to be in debt, they don't want to have loans, you know, so the state wants. So Syrian expats and the Syrian tycoons to rebuild Syria, you know, but it is really difficult without any loans, you know, from the International Monetary Fund or whatever, or the GCC or whatever. But it's really difficult because, you know, if you have someone. Let's give a practical example, if you have someone who said, okay, I'm gonna rebuild my village, okay, I'm Gonna build my house, I'm gonna build my. Who's gonna build the school? Who's gonna build the infrastructure? Who's gonna build the road? Who's gonna link the roads? Who's gonna build the electricity? You know, so you don't. You cannot do something like this without state funding, and the state doesn't have any money, you see. So it's. It's still a critical issue, but people are still waiting and hoping for big investment to come. They will come come, but maybe they'll come slower than expected. So to talk about the situation Aleppo, the security is much, much better. You have less extrajudicial killings.
- [35:17]
A
Less extrajudicial killings, yes, compared to what
- [35:21]
B
I saw like seven months ago. So the security is handled. You still have many people got the. The opportunity to take back their homes that were taken unlawfully by regime or even by rebels sometimes times. And they are still being able to keep like a social peace between former regime and the new rulers. Because as we said in this podcast so many times, we are talking about former Sunni regime people, you know, and this is one of the most important issues in Syria today. One more time. We talk a lot about minorities, but the biggest wound in the Syrian society is among the majority, you know. And so people in Aleppo are still managing to tackle this issue, but they still hope for better. They got better representation because I witnessed, for example, celebrations for the new appointments in the parliament. And Aleppo got people who really represent Aleppo that were appointed, the last seven people appointed by Shara, you know. So I went to one festivity or celebration in Heritan and they told me this is the first time we have an MP at the parliament since after. Never. We never had one before. And the guy, he's like someone who really fought in the revolution, etc. So they were seeking seven months ago, better representivity, and they are getting it. And just one last thing about Aleppo. For example, the new head of intelligence, Tahan, that replaced the latest Salemi, well, he's from Aleppo. So, you know, so they were asking Shara for more representativity and they are getting it bits by bits, but they are getting it, you know, which contributes to social, like appeasement, you know, from
- [37:05]
A
Aleppo you travel to Kobani. This is the city which, you know, before all the troubles was, was majority Kurdish. Is it? I know that during the siege of Kobani, which was terrible. I mean, I think a lot of the Kurds left the city. I don't know what the situation there is now, what the demography of Kobani is now, it's sort of halfway across the north of Syria, right on the Turkish border. Order Kobani. It withstood a tremendous siege. It became almost a symbol of Kurdish resistance to the Islamic State. And therefore, you know, I suppose played, continues to play a big role in the imagination of those Kurds and others who felt very much attached to the sdf, which if we all remember earlier this year was kind of conquered by Damascus and the government's forces. And since then there have been ongoing, you know, discussions, negotiations about how the SDF's soldiers will be incorporated into the Syrian armed forces. What did you see in Kobani?
- [38:06]
B
As you say, it is a symbol of resistance to the resistance to the Islamic State and it is still very present in the city itself. But maybe it is one thing that they have in common with the Nusra Front actually, who fought also the Islamic State state. And why I am saying this because I visited a graveyard of Dunusra Front in the Halepo countryside and half of the people that were killed and buried in this graveyard died fighting the Islamic State. And I'm talking about foreigners and Syrians and the people there in the village. I'm not going to name the village, but people in the village told me when the Islamic State took over the village at the end of the day and Nusra Front was defeated here, they wanted to burn this cemetery country, they wanted to destroy the cemetery because they consider the Nusa front as infidels, etc. Etc. But at the end of the day, we're able to save the cemetery. So they have this in common, actually, you know, so the new security apparatus of the new Syrian government is fighting the Islamic State as hard as the Kurdish forces fought it at the time. So they have this point in of junction, if I may say so. But it is a very awkward actually situation because when you go to Kobani, first of all you go through kind of of front line which is still here, you know, on the hills. You still have Kurdish forces in the hills and in the caves.
- [39:29]
A
Wow. Really? So tell us, these are sort of, what are they like, PKK extremists? Yes, they're the real holdouts. They're not going to give up.
- [39:37]
B
It's. It's more complicated than that. You have like PKK commanders, but you also have the Syrian Democratic Forces which are, which are now like 99.9% good. Because at one point in time they had Arabs with them, you know, but the Arabs, as we said here with you on, on a former Podcast they changed sides and this is how Damascus took all over the north, the northeast. But to stick to this, actually they are in their barracks. They cannot go out of the barracks. And the thing is that they are going to be incorporated, but we don't know when exactly because the Syrian army said we don't have enough barracks. And they say, okay, there's no barracks, no military facilities, so stay in your facility. So it's an awkward situation, but. But when you go into Kobani, you see that the asa, meaning the Kurdish police force and the new authorities are really working together. Because I saw the two people who like from the side of the Kurds, it's a PKK commander and from the side of the new authorities, a former Nusra commander, you see, and they are working together. You have like. Because I, I talk to them individually and I talk to them together, you see. So it was really interesting to see how they are making things unfold and how they are maintain peace on their level.
- [40:51]
A
Well, I remember when the, when the government's forces did overrun the northeast on this podcast, Eamonn certainly said we should all be expecting terrorist attacks from hardline PKK aligned Kurdish nationalists. It doesn't seem to have happened. That I guess is a sign of close cooperation between the Damascus and, you know, Damascus forces and the SDF's forces.
- [41:16]
B
Yes. And you have to know, know two things are important in this regard that PKK commanders, very known PKK commanders were incorporated in the Ministry of Defense as number two for the east, for example, for one of them. And that was far fetched for Damascus to convince Ankara that it was a
- [41:34]
A
good idea and if I may say, actually Wasim a sign that despite what some people say, Ahmed Ashara is not Erdogan's puppet.
- [41:41]
B
Absolutely.
- [41:41]
A
He's able to do that.
- [41:42]
B
Absolutely, absolutely. They have a force relation and interest since day one, since it live days now. You said it also in this podcast so many times. That's this is on one hand. On the other hand, even the hardcore PKK followers, they understand that the bet or the bargain of the PKK lost since they lost all their assets, they lost border crossing, they lost the river, they lost everything. So they have to accommodate and to adapt to the new situation, you see. And so they understood it. But it does not mean that the situation is solved or is specified completely. I am seeing that both parties are waiting, you know, and both parties are being able to calm down the hardliners in their ranks. But it is not totally solved yet because what I also saw in the Kobani area, I mean, Ainul Arab area. Just one example, the head of security of Ayn Lahrab, the whole area which Kobani is in, accepted to name Kobani, Kobani, as the Kurds want to. But the area is called Ayn Lahra because you have Arabs in the area. So he is smart, you know. And he, for example, he's called Masjidin Shaykh. He did not wait for the army to solve the problem. He went in with his security forces, bypassing the front line that I talked about. And so he forced things in a way, because he has a strong personality and he knows also his Kurdish counterparts because he fought them in Aleppo, in Taqa and other areas. So they have like men to man relation, you know?
- [43:15]
A
Yes. Honor between warriors. Yes.
- [43:18]
B
And I saw it, I told you, I talked to them individually and together. So that was really like quite something to be able to do that. And also I talked to the political, Kurdish political parties in Kobani. So I talked to the pyd, meaning the political branch of the also of the PKK, to another also Kurdish political party which aligned to them. But also, and this is like, was really interesting to a Kurdish political party loyal to Barzani in Iraqi Kurdistan who
- [43:50]
A
are opposed to the pkk. Big, big opponents.
- [43:52]
B
And they were in Kobani and they had the political bureau in Kobani and we talked freely. So it was like something like really a very. A very awkward but particular experience. And not to forget one important thing, that because we deviated a little bit, you have the Arab population of an area called Shuyukh and the Arab population also of the whole area of Ayan, Arab Kobani, who were forced to leave in the wake, on the wake of the war with the Islamic State in 2014, 15, 16, etc. And they came back to see their homes destroyed, booby trapped. Meaning after more than 10 years of exile, and just to give you an example, 150 tons of explosives were taken out from the house, houses, my goodness. And it was the Kurdish forces who forbid them from, to come back from for 12 years. So I saw, I visited those villages, I talked to those people. I went even into the tunnels that were dug by the pkk. And those people have real grievances, I bet, I bet against even their own. Because things are not like black or white people marry together in their own families. They have people from the Pikachu decay, you see, because you have Kurdish people, you have also Arabs married to Kurdish people, etc. Etc. And that's one thing, for example, you have many Kurdish people from this area who used to fight for, fight for the Nusra Front. So when you see those people and you talk to those people, you see how complicated it is.
- [45:21]
A
Absolutely.
- [45:22]
B
But still those people, those Arabs of Ashiyuk in particular, have real grievances and they do not believe that the core PKK who worked the Kurdish society in this area for more than a decade now, now will drop arms like this. They think that the fight is upcoming.
- [45:38]
A
I see.
- [45:38]
B
Goodness. You see. And so the role of the security apparatus of Damascus, meaning of Aleppo, is to make people, those people calm down and to convince them that they can still live next door to the villages where Kurdish people live. You see.
- [45:55]
A
So in summary then, the fact that you encountered those Barzani aligned political party shows that the monopoly of Kurdish nationalist politics that the pkk, let's be honest, had imposed on that area has been somewhat broken. And yet at the same time, Arab Kurdish animosity linked in the way that Arabs were mistreated by both sides, Islamic State and the PKK in the civil war remains a powder keg. You know, that may be a problem in future.
- [46:24]
B
Yes, I think. And I think that it's not broken. It's getting leaner. It's not broken because this dog talk they have, their bureau, but they are still afraid, you know, they are still afraid because they say, for example, they are still in the tunnels, even in Kobani, you know, and when you talk to people are there really in the. Do you really believe that they are still like fighters in the tunnels? And some people believe it.
- [46:50]
A
I see.
- [46:50]
B
You see.
- [46:51]
A
Well, before we follow President Macron to Turkey, can I ask you about Turkey and northern Syria? What presence now does Turkey have in Northern Syria still? Any at all? What is going on in for example, Afrin? And you know, we know, we spoke to a young Syrian man from Afrin. He told us all about the terrible ethnic cleansing frankly that occurred in Afrin. The terrible actions of the Turkish aligned Turkish backed forces there. What's going on now in that part of Syria and what kind of, of role or what kind of presence does the Turkish military or Turkish backed forces still have there?
- [47:31]
B
You don't have any more Turkish backed forces per se because everything goes through the Ministry of Defense. And that was a decision taken by President Erdogan himself. But they are still helping the factions. They used to help before, but through the Ministry of Defense.
- [47:46]
A
That's weird.
- [47:47]
B
No, it's. It means that there is no direct funding of factions. They Forced their own factions to get in line.
- [47:53]
A
I see.
- [47:54]
B
You see? But still the Ministry of Defense needs help. Help. So they're still helping him. You still have Turkish. I didn't. I did not encounter Turkish military because I didn't go that way. But you still have a Turkish military presence in Syria. And regarding Afrin, it's a good thing to talk about it because we did not, you know, the people who are in charge of the battle in Aleppo, the town of the areas of Ashrafiya and Shah Maqsood were many people displaced from Hafrin were. So those people who are in charge of that fight, it is actually the guy I talked about, Masjidin Shaykh and his boss Abdelghani, Colin Abdelghani, who actually facilitated for those displaced people in Aleppo city to go back to Afrin. So in the wake of the battle of Aleppo to take back the two neighborhoods that were controlled by the pkk, it opened an opportunity for the displeased people of Afrika to go back to Afrin. It was the first test, actually. Would they be able to go through government control areas and all the way to Afrin to take back their homes? They did. That was the first a brick, if I can say, of confidence, because everything is linked between those two men that I talked about and Majdeddin Sheikh with their Kurdish PKK counterparts. They were men of their word, you see. So that was the first brick of the trust. Despite the fact that they fought each other till. Till the end. And this, in my sense, they did not tell me. But I guess that in my sense, this is the foundation of the things going the right way in Kobani today, even though it is not completely solved yet. And you still have like, as we say, fire beneath the ground, you know, in the tunnels. But it is taking the right path.
- [49:43]
A
I mean, it does seem then that the situation on the ground in Syria is more complicated than many people might think, given the sort of press that Ahmad Asharo receives. It is still very diffuse power throughout Syria. And I don't want to call them warlords, but I'm going to call them warlords as a shorthand. Men who gained power, authority, experience on the battlefields of the civil war, still still have power in various parts of the country, even if now they formally are members of the Ministry of Defense in some way, they have personal power in localities. Is that right?
- [50:25]
B
It is right. And it is normal for things to be this way. A year and a half after the fall of Assad, you cannot force the hand of everybody at this point in time, time, you have to manage the forces that you have. As the goal used to say, I have a team A, I don't have a team B. You know, I make, I always make a comparison. And the French president did in his speech between France in 1944 and Syria today, you know, meaning France getting out of German occupation with more than half of the French people collaborating with the Germans and working with them.
- [51:00]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [51:00]
B
You see, and warlords and factions and Deaul himself being forced to go and see Stalin in Moscow in order to disarm the communists in France. Yeah, so shut up. Nothing like is like Shadow has a complicated situation. You have factions that were, as you said, helped by foreign countries. You have to tackle them. You don't want them to get into a new insurrection. So you have to make deals, you have to find ways to go out. You have to satisfy some people. You have, you see. So he cannot do it otherwise. You know, you cannot imagine at, at any moment that he can do otherwise. It will take time. It will take time.
- [51:40]
A
What a job he has. What happened from France's point of view in Ankara at the NATO summit? What would you say? I mean, the last time you were on the show, the Iran war had just started. You gave a very muscular, I would say very full throated kind of defense of France's position in this ever changing world. You thought that France was really flexing
- [51:59]
B
its muscles and it was proved right.
- [52:00]
A
No, Well, I mean, we were all proved right. Some of us were proved wrong. You know, everything, things changing, we've had to eat some humble pie. I mean, you did say that you thought the Houthis were basically defanged. That has proved to be untrue as of literally today. But you know, everyone, I mean, I don't know, I went back and actually looked over the transcript of that episode back at the beginning of the Iran war and you know, I was impressed. You basically got things right. I think France has been rather more sidelined in general in the discussions and the mediations. You know, it doesn't seem, seem like their diplomatic weight carries much, you know, water or whatever. I'm mixing my metaphors there with the situation. I don't know, but what happened in
- [52:46]
B
Ankara, I think what happened Ankara, I don't have particular information because I wasn't there. I think the focus of, of Ankara was Ukraine, you know, and the French policy today is pushing for a more European help to Ukraine, Ukraine, and this is a fact today. And Ankara is playing this card too because as you know, Hakan Fidan was in Kiev a few days ago now, and he walked in the streets of Kiev, etc. So I guess that at the end of the day, what the Americans want, what the Trump administration wants from NATO is what France wants from NATO too.
- [53:26]
A
Okay, well, one thing, though, is that the declaration at the end of the summit did make it clear that NATO stood against any Iranian attempts to control the Strait of Hormuz.
- [53:36]
B
Yes.
- [53:37]
A
Now that the Iran war is back, you know, is hot again, do you think there might be more direct cooperation?
- [53:46]
B
No.
- [53:46]
A
No. Why not? Come on. You know, Europe has more to lose from the Strait of Hormuz being held hostage by the Islamic Republic.
- [53:55]
B
But the decision making is too complicated. This is because you cannot, you cannot. I, I, this, this is analysis. I don't have information. The most important thing for it's, of course, the Hormuz Strait is important, but the most important thing is the war in Ukraine. And the most important thing is to uphold NATO behind European countries in Ukraine. That's the ball game, you know, to Hormuz Strait. Of course, Europe has stakes in it. France is already involved, as you said, but they don't make a fuss about, about it because they know that you cannot destroy the Iranian regime just by strikes, I think. And that's also an analysis that if there was a real plan, Europe would have followed. But there was no plan, no American plan.
- [54:41]
A
Yeah.
- [54:41]
B
You know, and why would you want them to follow with no plan? Look at the situation today.
- [54:46]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [54:47]
B
Is it good?
- [54:48]
A
No, it's pathetic. It's really crappy. And especially given that President Trump spent the year before green lighting this war offending his NATO allies so badly. Yes, really.
- [55:00]
B
You know, so shameful. I think that the focus of Europeans is on Ukraine and how to uphold Ukraine, and everything lays behind that as we speak.
- [55:12]
A
Okay, well, to bring this wonderful conversation to a close, Waseem. God, I love seeing your face. You just have the most lovable face, I think, in all of global journalism, honestly. And the French accent, you know, it works its wonders on even the most bearded soul kind of returning to Syria and to Ahmad Ashara. Do you think now we're any closer to being able really, to define Ahmad Ashara's political ideology? It seems to me that he represents a sort of Islamist third way. You know, he, he's certainly not secular or liberal. He's not necessarily democratic in a Western sense. That remains to be seen. I don't really think he is. He's certainly not committed to Al Qaeda's project of global jihad. You were the first one on this podcast to make it clear that jihadism was changing. And then, like a year later, Ahmed Ashara comes to power in Damascus, almost like a symbol of that thing that you first told us about. So if Ahmad Ashara is a sort of Islamist third weigher, you know, is he the Bill Clinton of the jihadist movement, if you like. I mean, are we any closer to really understanding what he's about, or is it now just pure pragmatism? He will do whatever it takes to keep Syria sovereign and to invest in its prosperity.
- [56:36]
B
I think we are mostly. It is mostly about pragmatism. And I think that they are thinking how to consolidate the new rule, not only militarily or economically, but also ideologically. You know, we are in a situation that they are adapting to what we say in Arabica, the jurisprudence of reality, you know, and they want to back this with theological and ideological arguments, and they are working on this. And it is a good thing, because as you said, and as I said when I went first day to Idlib, it's a third path. You know, it's a third path out of global jihad, out of global terrorism. If it works in Syria, it could work in other places, because it's a kind of a blueprint, and of course, it is still a conservative rule. And allow me to end with something funny. When we were in the plane with the president, there was a French researcher who said to the French president, you know, it's the only Arab country where you don't see portraits of the president all over the place as a sign of, you know, like, modernity. And I said, I looked at the French president and I said, it is true, but it is not for the reasons that you think of, because there is no personification in, you know, Islamic rule.
- [58:07]
A
He cannot, of course, sign of the Islamist background.
- [58:10]
B
Voila. You see? So they're on a path. They are, I guess we are trying to understand. And I guess they are trying to understand too, and we'll see where it will lead. But anyways, this far, it's really positive regarding what you could have imagined or expected.
- [58:27]
A
Well, let me end on a more sobering note. I worry that everything hinges on Ahmed Ashara himself. The bombings that occurred when President Macron was there, they weren't major or anything, but it's a reminder that there are people desperate to murder Ahmad Al Shara. Do you think we're all investing too much in one man? And if, God forbid, he were to be assassinated, would it all fall apart?
- [58:57]
B
Well, it's about time. It's only about time. We are still at the beginning of a process. It is always about a man. Man. When you get out of 54 years of dictatorship and 40 years of civil war, that's the way human society is. It can only about a man. It can be only about a man. But giving time, you will see how it will develop around him. But as we speak, of course, of course it depends a lot on him. And this is why many people, as you said, wish to get rid of him. And not only the people you think about him. Many people can wish to get rid of him for many reasons. For many reasons. But with time, he will have the right team. And if, as we see actually in the Ministry of Foreign affairs, in the security apparatus, they are opening up bit by bit, but they are opening up.
- [59:46]
A
Waseem Nasser, thank you so much for coming back on Conflicted, a true friend of the show. You really are a good friend. Thank you very much. It's been great to hear from your firsthand experiences of. Of visiting Damascus with President Macron. Wonderful.
- [60:00]
B
Thank you, Thomas. It's a pleasure.
- [60:04]
A
Conflicted is a message Heard Production. Our executive producers are Jake Warren and Max Warren. This episode was produced and edited by Thomas Small.