How not to murder someone

Summary

---

CrimeLess Podcast Episode Summary

Episode: "How not to murder someone"

Date: May 6, 2026

Hosts: Rory Scoville (comedian), Josh Dean (journalist, podcaster)
Theme: Outlandishly botched murder attempts — true crime stories so ridiculous, nobody died, but everyone learned (and laughed) a lot.

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores some of history’s dumbest, most cartoonish attempted murders: deadly animals in the mail and a series of failed plots worthy of Looney Tunes. Josh and Rory use these cases to riff on everything from snake mailing logistics to philosophical musings over the indestructible Tony Toto. It’s as much about the creativity of would-be killers (and their spectacular failures) as it is about the peculiarities of human nature.

---

Key Discussion Points & Story Breakdowns

1. Rattlesnakes by Mail — The World’s Worst Surprise Package

Segment start: [03:40]

The 2023 Joshua Tree Case

• Setup: A man named Elijah Bowles receives a package at a post office near Joshua Tree, CA. His friend opens it — inside is a live rattlesnake.
• The Plot:
  • The snake was secured in the box with cotton balls to muffle its rattle (“Smart.” – Rory, [09:47]).
  • There was a fake return address and the word "fragile."
  • Days later, a second rattlesnake is sent to his home in Florida.
• Intended Result: Clearly not a prank — Elijah suspects attempted murder (“That’s attempted murder, if you ask me.” – Josh, [10:27]).
• Questions Raised:
  • Could the snake survive? Yes; snakes can survive for months without food or water as long as they don’t overheat or freeze ([13:28]).
  • Is it legal to own a rattlesnake? In all but 13 US states. Both hosts’ states (CO & NY) are safe zones ([13:01]/[13:15]).
  • Effectiveness: Mailing spiders was debated as possibly worse (“Imagine you open that and they just scatter… at least a snake has composure. Spiders… that’s terrifying.” – Rory, [11:51]).
• Miscellaneous:
  • No one was harmed; the perpetrator remains at large.
  • The whole segment features riffs on the absurdity of postal snake attacks and how cartoons like "Murder, She Wrote" seem less outlandish in comparison.

Memorable Quote

• “Look, this show is making me a stronger criminal.” – Rory, [07:16]

---

2. The Synanon Snake Mailbox Assault (1978)

Segment start: [14:41]

Background:

• Victim: Paul Morantz, lawyer/journalist fighting California cults.
• Crime: Morantz bitten by a rattlesnake (rattles removed for silence) hidden in his mailbox.
• Plotters: Synanon cult’s “Imperial Marines.” Cult founder Charles Dederich ordered the hit (proved due to recordings).
• Aftermath:
  • Morantz survives after hospitalization; cultists get guilty pleas, minor sentences.
  • Dederich found drunk in Lake Havasu, a spring break town (“…all appearances of a man who was very, very drunk when they found him.” – Josh, [18:07]).
• Philosophical Aside: Sympathizing with the animal (“Why do they keep killing these animals? It’s not the snake’s fault.” – Rory, [16:08]).

Memorable Quote

• “You’re freaking it out. The snake is just trying to survive. Do you think I want to be in this mailbox?” – Rory, [16:30]

---

3. The Indestructible Tony Toto Saga

Segment start: [24:39]

The Case:

• Time/Place: Allentown, Pennsylvania, early 1980s.
• Story: Francis Toto tries to murder her philandering (but oddly lovable) husband Tony — at least six times, all failures.
• The Murders That Weren’t:
  1. 14-year-old son’s friend with baseball bat (misses, runs away).
  2. Daughter’s boyfriend with gun, fails due to unexpected driving pattern.
  3. Tripwire on porch; Tony steps over it.
  4. Car bomb—bomb never detonates.
  5. Daughter’s other boyfriend (Anthony Bruno) shoots Tony in the head; he survives.
  6. Francis poisons Tony’s post-shooting chicken soup; he sleeps but survives.
  7. Bruno’s friends “Ronald and Donald” shoot Tony in the chest; miss heart by an inch. Tony survives two days, dazed, before police intervene.
• Aftermath:
  • Everyone involved arrested; Tony recovers, keeps the bullet in his head, forgives Francis, bails her out, and stays married.
  • The story becomes a movie: I Love You To Death starring Kevin Kline & Tracey Ullman.
  • Both Tony and Frances make a heartwarming public statement; still together for their 60th anniversary ([37:28]).

Notable Quotes

• “Are we led to believe that we are only truly dead when we believe we are?” – Rory, [34:06]
• “How did they not immediately put him on SEAL Team 6…he’s ready to go.” – Rory, [34:45]
• “He puts up 50 grand to spring the woman who tried to kill him six times.” – Josh, [36:23]
• “I am team Tony for sure. There’s no changing that for me.” – Rory, [38:10]

---

4. The World's Worst, Most Subcontracted Hit (Chinese Hitman Daisy Chain)

Segment start: [39:03]

What happened:

• Setting: Guangxi, China; business dispute.
• Scheme:
  • Target (“Wei”) is marked for death by competitor Tan Yuhee, who hires a hitman for ¥2M.
  • That hitman subcontracts to another (¥1M), who subcontracts… again (¥770,000), then again (¥700,000), then again (£100,000)… total of 5 subcontractors, each taking a cut.
  • Final hitman reveals the plot to the target, proposes a fake killing for payout, but target goes to police.
• Result: Every hitman and the original client arrested and convicted of attempted murder.
• Analysis: “It’s like Russian nesting doll hitmen. That’d be a good Christmas gift…each one a little hitman with a little gun.” – Josh, [42:43]

Memorable Quote

• “Anytime someone subcontracts, this is just the recurring theme…on Crimeless, it’s gonna go well.” – Rory, [40:18]

---

5. Lane’s Games – Spider Math and Wile E. Coyote Trivia

Segment start: [46:37]

Spider Math (callback to the rattlesnake story)

• Math Problem: How many black widow spiders does it take to equal the weight of a rattlesnake?
  • Black widow: 1g ea.
  • 2lb rattlesnake ≈ 907g → 907 spiders
  • 6lb rattlesnake ≈ 2,721 spiders (Rory’s first estimate: 3,000 — almost direct hit.)
• Quote: “How Many Spiders Make a Snake? Tonight on ‘How Many Spiders Make a Snake?’” – Rory, [48:34]

Wile E. Coyote & Roadrunner Trivia

• Multiple choice about Looney Tunes: origins, facts, and trivia — with hosts guessing (usually badly).
• Best factoid: Wile E. Coyote’s full name is Wile Ethelbert Coyote; Chuck E. Cheese stands for Charles Entertainment Cheese.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Full stop. But we are very much in favor of failed murder plots because failing to murder someone is unequivocally good.” – Josh, [04:06]
• “He makes great pizza...maybe he makes really good pizza that’s brought some good vibes — the universe needs his pizza.” – Rory, [31:17]
• “Can we live forever if we don’t think we’ve died?” – Rory, [34:06]
• “Mind over matter...Tony would seem to be a living example.” – Josh, [34:21]
• “Anytime someone subcontracts, this is always — this is just the recurring theme of it.” – Rory, [40:18]
• “How Many Spiders Make a Snake? Tonight on How Many Spiders Make a Snake?” – Rory, [48:34]

---

Timestamps for Notable Segments

• [03:40] – Snake-in-the-mail story opens
• [14:41] – Synanon cult’s snake mailbox attack
• [24:39] – The Tony Toto multi-murder-failure saga
• [39:03] – Subcontracted hitman Russian-doll plot from China
• [46:37] – Lane’s Spider Math and Wile E. Coyote Trivia

---

Tone & Style

Consistently darkly comedic—blending true crime with Looney Tunes absurdity and sharp banter. The show leverages genuine curiosity for criminal ingenuity… and the schadenfreude of criminals who fail spectacularly.

---

Summary

A packed episode featuring animal weaponry, incompetent assassins, and philosophical musings on survivorship. The stories remind us: invention is no guarantee of success in crime, especially when your blueprint is a Saturday morning cartoon.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Rory Scoville]

Guaranteed Human

[Josh Dean]

hey there criminalist Nation. If you've been sitting on a business idea for a while, consider this the sign to take action. It can even be made official today by creating a website with WIX Harmony. Just tell WIX Harmony what you want and it will build the entire site, business features included. And everything can still be edited by hand. It's your website after all. Your call. Try it [e-mail] harmony that's wix.com harmony

[Pets Best Advertiser]

your pet is your bestie, your therapist, your perfect match. It's easy to love them. It's easy to protect them too, with pet insurance coverage from Pets Best because it's all fun and games until they chew on something they shouldn't and you get a vet bill to match. With perfect timing, Pets Best helps protect your furry friend and your budget from this imperfect world. Get up to 90% cash back on elementary eligible vet bills. From less than a dollar a day, Pets Best has plans to cover accidents, injuries and more, from puppies and kittens to seniors. Find your Perfect Match plan and get a [e-mail] Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policy and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10

[Josh Dean]

spring into deals with stay green premium 2 cubic foot mulch 5 bags for $10 plus stay fresh with up to 35% off. Select major appliances and save an additional $100 on select laundry pairs. Our best lineup is here at Lowes Lowe's. We help you save valid three five six mulch offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii. See Lowes.com for more details.

[Jana Kramer]

Visit your nearby Lowes

[Martha Stewart]

this is Martha Stewart from the Martha Stewart Podcast. Ever wonder how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret Getting ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper. Just lightly wet the counter beforehand so the paper grips and stays in place. Then lay down the Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper so drips and spills stay on the paper, not all over your kitchen counter. You can roll out dough, prep a party spread or cook alongside family when you're done. Cleanup is as simple as lifting the paper and revealing that clean counter underneath. Effortless. You can use it for cooking and Baking, prep, and even crafting. Especially when you need extra working space. Because when the mess is already handled, you can focus on what matters.

[Rory Scoville]

The.

[Martha Stewart]

The food, the people, and the moment. It may look effortless, but now you know. It's Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper. Take a tip from me. Wet it, set it, prep it, done. Make it easy. Make it with Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper available now in the Reynolds wrap aisle in Walmart, Target, Amazon, and Costco.

[Rory Scoville]

Do snakes drink water? Am I an idiot for even asking that? Campsite Media smart. Less media.

[Josh Dean]

Rory, I'm going to put you on the spot here.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep, this is a common theme.

[Josh Dean]

What's the most creative way to murder somebody?

[Rory Scoville]

Vat of acid. And I know that from experience. Vat of acid.

[Josh Dean]

Where does one procure a vat of acid?

[Rory Scoville]

Wouldn't you like to know? Potential murder student. You know, just like how Doc Brown got plutonium in Back to the Future.

[Josh Dean]

It's just out there, if you know who to ask. Yeah, well, we don't condone murder here at Crimeless. It's unequivocally very bad. And we are against it. Full stop.

[Rory Scoville]

Full stop. Full stop.

[Josh Dean]

But we are very much in favor of failed murder plots because failing to murder someone is unequivocally good. Yeah, I think we can agree, right? Yeah, it's often very funny also, as long as no actual harm was done and the person attempting the murder slips on a proverbial banana peel. So, like this week's stories, which illustrate some of the most ham fisted murder attempts this side of Wile E. Coyote. After the break, we have the tale of the world's worst surprise package and a love story for the ages in which a wife can't stop trying to kill her husband in increasingly dumb ways.

[Rory Scoville]

Addiction. That's real addiction right there.

[Josh Dean]

This week on Crimeless. After the break. Welcome back to Crimeless, the weekly podcast that celebrates the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals. Even the attempted murderers, because they have failed. I'm Josh Dean.

[Rory Scoville]

And I am Rory Scofel.

[Josh Dean]

Okay, so our first crime today. Sounds like the plot of a Bugs Bunny episode.

[Rory Scoville]

Perfect.

[Josh Dean]

Rory, have you ever had a nemesis?

[Rory Scoville]

Sure, I've got them all the time. Oh, piling them up.

[Josh Dean]

So there is someone out there you really don't like and maybe on your worst day might want to do harm to?

[Rory Scoville]

Probably not. Probably no one. No one I've ever met.

[Josh Dean]

That's good. That's good. So there's not anyone you secretly wish?

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Or just maybe like, very minor Harms.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, yeah. Yes, minor infractions.

[Josh Dean]

I like to imagine the perpetrator of our lead crime today, whose identity remains unknown, had a nemesis. I'm picturing him as Yosemite Sam, hopping mad, and he stuffs a very dangerous animal into a box to mail to the Wascally wabbit in the hopes that he will open that box and get a nasty surprise.

[Rory Scoville]

I like this.

[Josh Dean]

So this is the kind of bonkers thing that typically only happens in cartoons. And also one time in California back in 2023.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

One day, a 60 year old man named Elijah Bowles goes to a post office near Josh Tree to pick up a package. He hops back in his car and he asks his passenger, a friend, to open the box.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, shit.

[Josh Dean]

That friend is not pumped by what she finds in there. Any guesses on what's in the box, Rory?

[Rory Scoville]

Well, here's the thing. I'm assuming it can't be of a particular size because it would be making a lot of noise. And so I'm thinking it's got to be. I don't know, I feel like even a snake, you would know, but I feel like a snake or a spider.

[Josh Dean]

You're right. You're so.

[Rory Scoville]

Something venomous. Like, if it was a honey badger,

[Josh Dean]

you'd know that package would be hopping all over the place.

[Rory Scoville]

But I will say honey badger was what I was picturing the whole time. Just pandemonium in the car.

[Josh Dean]

In retrospect, I wish it had been a honey badger. That would be an amazing scene if it just sat there very quietly until the package was open and then just chaos.

[Rory Scoville]

Pure calm and then immediate hurricane.

[Josh Dean]

So you were right. I feel like your batting average is very high. You get so many of these. Right. It was a live rattlesnake.

[Rory Scoville]

Look, this show is making me a stronger criminal.

[Josh Dean]

I mean, that really is the goal. So, yes, it was a live rattlesnake. Specifically a two foot long northern Pacific rattlesnake, which feels very geographically specific. Yeah, so it's venomous like all rattlesnakes. And a bite can cause tissue damage, organ failure, even death if not treated. Yeah, I don't know about you, but I get really excited about packages when I don't know what's inside. It's like, is this a present or did I order some Swiffers when I was drunk?

[Rory Scoville]

Of course, this actually might scar. Well, one, it has definitely scarred me, but this is going to scar our listeners. No one's going to be like, what's in here?

[Josh Dean]

Wait, is that a rattle?

[Rory Scoville]

Am I irritating A venomous creature?

[Josh Dean]

So, yeah, try to imagine yourself in that exact passenger seat, Rory.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So you're, like, psyched about this box. You. What's in there? You open it up. Rattles.

[Rory Scoville]

Well, that's. What's even worse is that he asked the friend to open it. So they have no excitement. They don't get to keep whatever it is. They're opening a rattlesnake box, and it's not even for them.

[Josh Dean]

Well, maybe it is now. He's like, you can keep the rattlesnake.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So when she opened the box, she threw it at me. Almost. Bowles told the LA Times. The word almost is doing a lot of work there. Instead, this brave lady holds it together and she says, there's a snake in there. Yep. Bowles swerved to the side of the road, put the box on the curb, called 911 and animal control. I might also have driven over the box just to be safe.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay, okay. Good to know. Good to know.

[Josh Dean]

Pausing here to make room for the outrage from snake's rights people.

[Rory Scoville]

Well, I like that. You would have driven over the box as though the snake agreed with the motive to hurt this man. Fair.

[Josh Dean]

Maybe the snake is the victim here. Is that what you're saying?

[Rory Scoville]

I mean, also, now that I think about it, they were mailing it. I think you'd have to mail, like, a spider or a snake. Something that can live for, like, what, three days? Like, how long was the male.

[Josh Dean]

I had the same question, and I'm gonna get there because I. I also wondered that, like, how many animals could you actually. And I. I don't have the answer to this question.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Put in a box and feasibly expect

[Rory Scoville]

to live long enough. Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. Like ups, ground. I don't know. It could be five days.

[Rory Scoville]

It could be five days. God, could you imagine? You're like, I think there's a rattlesnake in one of these boxes. You're like the mailman. I thought only dogs hated us. Like, the hackiest mailman.

[Josh Dean]

So the officers who arrived at the scene took the snake into custody and found. Here you go. Found the box had been padded out with cotton balls so that the postal carriers would not hear the rattle.

[Rory Scoville]

Yes. Smart.

[Josh Dean]

Look at that.

[Rory Scoville]

Smart.

[Josh Dean]

Though I have to imagine most postal carriers who are processing tons of packages carrying all manner of things.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Are not going to hear a rattle in a box and think, that's a rattlesnake.

[Rory Scoville]

I bet there's a rattlesnake in that box.

[Josh Dean]

Like, baby toy jar of Lentils.

[Rory Scoville]

This is some Murder, She Wrote type shit,

[Josh Dean]

but this seriously hints at premeditation to try and hide the presence of the snake in the box. And that clue, along with the fact that the box addressed to him contained a deadly snake and the fact that a second rattlesnake was mailed to this man's home in Florida, caused Elijah to think this wasn't a prank.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, wow. Two snakes getting mailed.

[Josh Dean]

That's attempted murder, if you ask me. He told the LA Times, and I think it's pretty hard to argue with that.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, he's right.

[Josh Dean]

He says, I'm trying to figure out, do I have any enemies? Elijah planned to do some soul searching as he plumbed his memory banks for people he'd really pissed off. Yeah, he's just like a normal dude with a job. I'm not a gangster, he said, I'm a truck driver.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

The only other clue in the box was the word fragile written in black marker and a fake return address that said Palm Coast, Florida, when in fact, it was mailed from Hayward, California. They hit him up at his two homes. I guess this guy, successful truck driver,

[Rory Scoville]

got two homes and he doesn't know if he has any.

[Josh Dean]

God.

[Rory Scoville]

I mean, I guess it doesn't sound random.

[Josh Dean]

It does not. And I feel like that's what you would say to a reporter. Like, if you have enemies who are trying to kill you in such elaborate ways, I feel like you've probably done something that you might not want to admit to a reporter.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I did help. Murder. No, I bet that's not it.

[Josh Dean]

Is it the guy that I stole the money from?

[Rory Scoville]

It could be the robbery. No, scratch that. Off the record.

[Josh Dean]

The guy whose wife I slept with, maybe.

[Rory Scoville]

No, now we're becoming pro guy mailing snakes around.

[Josh Dean]

I mean, he might have had his reasons.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So do you have any questions about this method of attempted murder? I mean, you did ask one earlier.

[Rory Scoville]

I mean, just the one from before. Just kind of wondering how many different types of animals. But that's not related necessarily.

[Josh Dean]

It is. I think that's a valid question. I basically was like, what could survive in a box? Right?

[Rory Scoville]

You want to freak out? I'm thinking box of spiders. Imagine you open that and they just scatter. Then that fucking. At least a snake has some, like, you know, cunning, sort of like, you know, composure spiders. Oh, God. Imagine there were eight spiders in that box.

[Josh Dean]

Black widows.

[Rory Scoville]

Black widows. And you just opened it and they were like.

[Josh Dean]

And you're like, wait, now there's only four.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Like, where are the other four?

[Rory Scoville]

Where are they? God, that's. And it's in a car.

[Josh Dean]

It's a horror movie right there.

[Rory Scoville]

That's terrifying.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. I mean, my question was a version of yours was like, wouldn't the sender assume the snake would die in transit, making it less of an attempted murder and more like an ominous threat like the Horsehead and the Godfather?

[Rory Scoville]

So I guess snakes can go a certain amount of time without food and water. Just snakes drink water. Am I an idiot for even asking that?

[Josh Dean]

No, not. Not at all. Not at all.

[Rory Scoville]

I don't know why it feels like I should know that, but yet my brain will not give me the answer. On.

[Josh Dean]

On its own, I also wondered, like, there's the very real problem of obtaining a rattlesnake. Is it easy to obtain a rattlesnake? Isn't that a wild animal?

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. Wait, a. Snakes come from.

[Josh Dean]

Well, I have some answers. You might be surprised to learn that owning a rattlesnake is illegal in only 17 states. Oh. There are varying levels of permits involved. And in some states, like California, you can only possess native venomous snakes.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay.

[Josh Dean]

But in the majority of the US you can indeed own a rattlesnake. But good news, Rory. Both of our states are among the 13 where you can't.

[Rory Scoville]

Good.

[Josh Dean]

So Colorado and New York. Safe.

[Rory Scoville]

Good. Thank God.

[Josh Dean]

As for the effectiveness of a rattler as a murder weapon in a box, it turns out they can go months without food or water.

[Rory Scoville]

Well, there you go.

[Josh Dean]

It is 100% possible for a snake to survive in the mail like that as long as they don't overheat or freeze. A snake expert told the LA Times.

[Rory Scoville]

I gotta say, that's a risk there, too. I wouldn't worry about the freezing, but the overheating for sure.

[Josh Dean]

In Palm Desert?

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, just, you know, being on a truck, the back of a truck. I guess they could freeze, too, because it's definitely getting thrown on a plane. The one to Florida.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. Well, I guess maybe a dead rattlesnake is still a threat. It's ominous.

[Rory Scoville]

It is ominous.

[Josh Dean]

Unfortunately, I wish I could tell you that the snake cops cracked this case, but alas, as of this taping, the mailer remains unknown and at large.

[Rory Scoville]

Terrifying. Do you think he opened the second package, or was he a little smarter about it? Like, could be a snake in here.

[Josh Dean]

I think, like, basically notified whoever was opening packages back in Florida and was like, don't open anything that seems a little bit fishy. Is it rattling?

[Rory Scoville]

You won't believe what I just Got.

[Josh Dean]

But here's something else you might like to know. This is not the only time someone in California has tried to use a rattlesnake as a murder weapon. So our second attempted snake assassination. Or wait, no, we're not assassinating a snake. Assassination by snake.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

Was in October of 1978.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay.

[Josh Dean]

Where a crusading lawyer and investigative journalist named Paul Morantz, who had made it his cause to pursue the creepy cults that were then proliferating in 1970s California, was hurrying into his house to watch a World series game when he reached into his mailbox and. Oh, man. Felt something sharp pierce his skin.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

He'd been bitten by a rattlesnake that someone had hidden in his mailbox. Not in a box, not in a package. In the mailbox.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

The snake latched on and was still biting when Paul pulled his hand out. It only finally dropped off when he shook it violently. Oh, imagine that.

[Rory Scoville]

God, that's terrifying.

[Josh Dean]

Also, the last thing you would think. You put your hand in the mailbox, feel a sharp. You're definitely not thinking there's a rattlesnake in.

[Rory Scoville]

What is with the male. Why is it always male related?

[Josh Dean]

I don't know.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, people ask that same question about mass shootings.

[Josh Dean]

It's true.

[Rory Scoville]

Why is it always male related? White male related.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, too soon, Too soon.

[Rory Scoville]

But also, too soon is all. Every day too soon. The latest one.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, go get back to the funny part.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, yeah, you're right. All right. Snakes like the post office. And go.

[Josh Dean]

Okay. So neighbors responded to Paul's scream, applied a tourniquet, rushed him to the hospital, and he spent the next six days recovering. Paramedics responding to the attack killed the snake by cutting its head off with a shovel, then discovered its rattles had been removed to keep it quiet.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, wow. Why do they keep killing these animals? I killed the snake.

[Josh Dean]

I guess it's like, would you not. I don't know. What would you do if you opened a package on your porch and it was a rattlesnake? What would you do?

[Rory Scoville]

I mean, I would be terrified. I'd want to get it away from me, but I don't know that I'd have some sort of ill feelings towards

[Josh Dean]

the snake because it's not the snake's fault.

[Rory Scoville]

The snake is just trying to survive. It's just.

[Josh Dean]

It.

[Rory Scoville]

You're freaking it out.

[Josh Dean]

You know that's true. If the snake is. He's like, do you think I want to be in this mailbox?

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. Why do you?

[Josh Dean]

Why would I?

[Rory Scoville]

Don't Want to bite you. I think you're trying to hurt me. I don't understand that this is a mailbox. I don't know mail. I don't get you.

[Josh Dean]

This whole thing is freaking me the fuck out.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, I'm freaked out, dude.

[Josh Dean]

All right, fair. Yeah. You do know how to turn the camera around and make us appreciate all

[Rory Scoville]

perspective, really make us look internally. Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So who committed this devious act? It was members of a group known as Synanon. I don't know if you've heard of them.

[Rory Scoville]

No.

[Josh Dean]

So I only know it because I believe there was a podcast made about them once. They're a drug rehab group that evolved into a full on cult. Oh, wow.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay.

[Josh Dean]

And apparently kidnapped members and had its own enforcers, known as the Imperial Marines. So two of those Marines were identified, arrested, and charged with conspiracy to commit murder for stuffing the snake in Paul's mailbox. The cult's founder, a guy named Charles Dederich, who loved to record himself, was also charged after police found recordings ordering his men to harm Paul.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

Like, there's always something like that. I love that the, like, megalomaniac cult guys are always the ego.

[Rory Scoville]

It just brings too many people down.

[Josh Dean]

You'll love this detail. Charles went on the run and was found in Lake Havasu, Arizona, which is now a very popular spring break location. I imagine he was playing beer pong with college girls on a pontoon boat.

[Rory Scoville]

They were like, no, he's fun. No, no, no. He tries to kill people with snakes.

[Josh Dean]

And in a bit of hilarious irony, according to Cops, Charles Dederich, founder of an addiction rehab cult, gave all appearances of a man who was very, very drunk when they found him.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, all of that adds up perfectly.

[Josh Dean]

So drunk he had to be carried out on a stretcher. It's always that, right?

[Rory Scoville]

I mean, maybe he was just back to drinking. That could have been like one drink, and he was like, ah, I've been off it for so long.

[Josh Dean]

Have you ever been that drunk?

[Rory Scoville]

No, no. Although I have been drunk enough to wish that someone would carry me around on the stretcher.

[Josh Dean]

On a previous episode, I believe we had someone in a. So drunk they were in a wheelbarrow.

[Rory Scoville]

That's right.

[Josh Dean]

We've got stretcher now.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, Stretcher does feel more comfortable and safer than wheelbarrow.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, I believe. If I recall, the guy in the wheelbarrow had bitten somebody. Wow.

[Rory Scoville]

Good memory.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, boy. So all three men pleaded guilty to lesser charges and avoided trial. And Dedorich was banned from ever associating with Synanon again. Wow.

[Rory Scoville]

Wait, they really just got, like, a slap on the wrist for trying to.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, basically.

[Rory Scoville]

They would have killed him. How did he survive what happened? Did he, like.

[Josh Dean]

Like six days in the hospital. He was in intensive care. They had to antidote. Yeah, yeah. I mean, very, very serious. Like, unlike the guy Elijah in the car. Yeah. No bite. Just has a great story.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

This dude was bit.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Was bitten. Was bit. I think it was bit. Was bitten.

[Rory Scoville]

Was bitten. Twas bit.

[Josh Dean]

So, Rory, having heard all that, would you now consider mailing a deadly snake to your nemesis?

[Rory Scoville]

Yes, yes. It seems like a good.

[Josh Dean]

I like your twist on it. I think it's a box of 10 Black Widows.

[Rory Scoville]

I think that's what I would do. Because also, and this is just the frugal Rory and me, that weight's going to be lower. You're going to pay. You're going to pay less.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, you're right. Actually much cheaper, right?

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Dean]

How many spiders would it take to equal the weight of a rattlesnake? I'm going to guess it's like, thousand.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. Now it's a total cereal commercial. How many bowls of Wheaties or whatever it is,

[Josh Dean]

as Lane frantically adjusts her game to make us guess how many spiders it takes to weigh a rattlesnake.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

What do you think? What's your guess? Let's take a guess, and maybe on a future episode, we can actually do the math. How many spiders do you think it would take?

[Rory Scoville]

How many spiders?

[Josh Dean]

I mean, I don't know how much? Let's guess. A rattlesnake is like, I don't know, six pounds or something. Like, how many spiders?

[Rory Scoville]

Okay, let's say six pounds. How many spiders to weigh six pounds. And they're black widows.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, we'll go black widows.

[Rory Scoville]

I'm gonna go 3,000. Am I crazy?

[Josh Dean]

I was going to go way higher.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay. Because that's. Now I think I'm too. I thought I was too high, then I thought I was too low.

[Josh Dean]

I'm going like 50,000. Is that too high?

[Rory Scoville]

I'm going to go. I'm going to switch to 10,000.

[Josh Dean]

All right. On a future episode, we will find someone out there who knows how to calculate the average. Well, no, no, no, no.

[Rory Scoville]

We'll do this together. We will get all the spiders and

[Josh Dean]

we'll find out, and we'll get a very sensitive scale.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. We'll get a scale that can read that kind of. Of thing. And we'll have a lot of fun. We'll film it it'll be for a webisode.

[Josh Dean]

All right, Future Webisode Josh and Rory Way Spiders. All right, after the break, the murder plots get even stupider.

[Cal Penn]

Hey everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no, at this point would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that that deeply emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too.

[Cal Penn]

Listen to Irsay the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Pets Best Advertiser]

Protect your pet with insurance from Pets Best Plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC or underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10 Ever wonder

[Martha Stewart]

how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret Getting ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper. Just lightly wet the counter beforehand so the paper grips and stays in place. Then lay down the Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper so drips and spills stay on the paper, not all over your kitchen counter. You can roll out dough, prep a party spread or cook alongside family when you're done. Cleanup is as simple as lifting the paper and revealing that clean counter underneath. Effortless. You can use it for cooking and baking, prep and even crafting, especially when you need extra working space. Because when the mess is already handled, you can focus on what matters the food the people and the moment. It may look effortless, but now you know. It's Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper. Take a tip from me. Wet it, set it, prep it. Done. Make it easy. Make it with Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper. Available now in the Reynolds wrap aisle in Walmart, Target, Amazon, and Costco.

[Jana Kramer]

This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. Instead of giving your mom something that fades, give her something that becomes part of her home this Mother's Day. The Lenox Spice Village is a set of 24 hand painted little houses that are actually spice jars, perfect for anyone who loves to cook, entertain, or enjoy the little details that make everyday life special. As a mom, I love gifts that help turn ordinary moments into memories. Charming, timeless, and meant to be used. This is one of those pieces she'll treasure, and once you see it, you'll want it for your own home. To find the full [e-mail] Spice Village.

[Josh Dean]

Welcome back to Crimeless, the podcast that absolutely hates murder, but loves a good failed murder attempt.

[Rory Scoville]

Murder.

[Josh Dean]

Our second story is a doozy. Rory. Okay, so good that you will think this should be a movie, and it eventually was, but that's for later.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay. All right. So then that instinct is correct if I think that.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. Back in the early 1980s, Francis and Tony Toto were high school sweethearts living in Allentown, Pennsylvania, a city most famous, of course, for being the title of a Billy Joel song.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

It's also. I learned the place where the Liberty Bell was hidden from the British during the Revolutionary War. Did not know that was a thing. Oh, but guess they were gonna.

[Rory Scoville]

Were they, like, after that bell? I mean, there's so many other. They really dropped the ball on. Just eye on the prize now.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, it feels like a bit of a distraction.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. I don't know that they needed the bell to ultimately win. If we get the bell first, you guys know the rules. You ring it, we win. They disappear.

[Josh Dean]

Capture the bell. Anyway, Tony Toto, who moved to the Bronx from Italy when he was 14, owned a pizza place called, you guessed it, Tony's Pizzeria. And he and Francis had four kids. Four kids. A pizza place in a house in Pennsylvania's third biggest city. The Totos were living the American dream, except for one thing. Tony was a massive cheater.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay.

[Josh Dean]

In fact, he was cheating on Francis pretty much constantly, sometimes with three women a night. And she knew it.

[Rory Scoville]

And she knew it. So he's not even good at it.

[Josh Dean]

Not even trying to hide it. I think he's like, this is what I do.

[Rory Scoville]

I'm going to Darla's.

[Josh Dean]

All right.

[Rory Scoville]

I meant the bar. I meant the grocery store. I don't know why I said Trisha's.

[Josh Dean]

And Francis, like good Samaritans, would see him out doing this. He wasn't even trying to hide it and alert Francis and to really rub it in. Their house would even get calls from the girls he was sleeping with.

[Rory Scoville]

Love it.

[Josh Dean]

Love it.

[Rory Scoville]

Real, real New age guy right there.

[Josh Dean]

This was the 80s. No secret text or Instagram DMs, just ladies calling her answering machine. Looking for Tony. Yep. So Frances would try to confront her husband about it, but Tony just blew her off. Finally she said she couldn't take it anymore. What do you think Francis did next?

[Rory Scoville]

She mailed him a no.

[Josh Dean]

I don't know.

[Rory Scoville]

Tried to shove him into a pizza oven.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. Basically, she decided to have him killed. So. Yes, I mean, that would have been one way to do it. I feel like a high degree of difficulty on the pushing into a pizza.

[Rory Scoville]

It would be difficult. It's not like a huge opening. I don't know, Tony. Size, you know, there's a lot of issues.

[Josh Dean]

It's pretty narrow generally, right?

[Rory Scoville]

It's narrow. Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

And it opens out, so I feel like it'd be very easy to escape.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep. No, no, no. You're. You're finding all the pitfalls in this theory.

[Josh Dean]

Naturally, she called up the most dangerous person she Knew, their son's 14 year old friend.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep. Jason. Get Jason over here. I want to get my husband killed.

[Josh Dean]

Here's the amazing teenage murder plot. The kid would hide behind the bushes in front of their house with a baseball bat, wait for Tony to come by and slug him in the head.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

Recurring theme here. Murder attempts first imagined in Looney Tunes episodes.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, these are all very animated.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. So one day, Tony was walking out of the house, the kid swung the bat, but it got stuck in a bush. Tony heard it turned around, spooking the kid hitman, who dropped the bat and ran.

[Rory Scoville]

That's the most G rated ending to that attempt I've ever heard.

[Josh Dean]

You thought Tony might just beat the crap out of the kid?

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, I mean, Tony's right. So like, what are you doing?

[Josh Dean]

What's going on? I mean, great cover up, right? You can't report a 14 year old for swinging a baseball bat in your front yard. Right.

[Rory Scoville]

That kid was like, sorry, I thought the baseball field was in here and just ran off.

[Josh Dean]

Okay. Failed murder attempt. Not a great start for Frances. Naturally, she went to option B. Another teen.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

This Time her daughter's boyfriend, Donald Ernie.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay.

[Josh Dean]

The first plan was to shoot Tony in the back after he parked by their house. Donald hid behind a tree at the intersection nearby, waiting for Tony to take the U turn he always took before parking his car. That night, for some reason, was the first time in five years that Tony didn't make the U turn. Donald couldn't take the shot without Tony spotting him. So instead. Recurring theme. Donald tried some Bugs Bunny shit. He strung a wire across the house's front step so that Tony would trip when he headed out the door for his date at night.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Unfortunately, Tony spotted the wire.

[Rory Scoville]

You're right. This is all very. Just Looney Tunes. I know. So Tony spotted the wire. I bet it wasn't even thin at all. It was like very thick. Hang a painting type wire.

[Josh Dean]

I would think the most obvious problem with this is that most people don't fall and automatically hit their head and die. They like break an arm. They just roll. Like.

[Rory Scoville]

What are the odds that he would.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, Very, very long odds. I feel like it results in a death. Much higher odds that you piss off Tony.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

Or in this case, he thought it was a prank and he just stepped over it. Went out on his date.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, and went on his date. How fun. Good for you, Tony. Have fun out there.

[Josh Dean]

Depending how you calculate it, we're either over two or three. If you count the non U turn shooting.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, I count it. I count that.

[Josh Dean]

Okay, well, so we're over three. So now Donald, still on the job. He tries setting up a car bomb by putting a wire between the gas tank and the distributor of Tony's car.

[Rory Scoville]

This dude went from tripping him on the stairs to car bomb. Jesus Christ, Donald, you're all over the map.

[Josh Dean]

I think somebody, his friends were like, dude, that was the dumbest idea. How about a car bomb?

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So he puts a wire between the gas tank and the distributor of Tony's car, which would set off a spark to create an explosion. But Donald Shocker isn't a bomb maker and his makeshift explosive never goes off. Yep, pretty much what you'd expect. So we're now 0 for 4. I guess Donald is not.

[Rory Scoville]

Donald alone is 0 for 3.

[Josh Dean]

He is. It's important to point out that we're four murder attempts in and Tony still has no idea that there's an actual threat on his life. So none of these have actually revealed to him that someone is trying to kill him.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

He just happens to be avoiding them all.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Was Tony incredibly lucky or is this just what Happens when you hire teens to be your assassin. Maybe both.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, there's a little bit of both.

[Josh Dean]

Francis then turned. Oh, God. To her daughter's other boyfriend. She clearly takes after the dad.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay, so the morals. I don't like that he cheats, but I'm okay that you do it to your boyfriends. And so let's get them involved. Even though you're doing the same thing that I'm wanting to kill him for. How good do you think his pizza is? Do you think he makes great pizza? Because I'm thinking this good karma, with all the luck, maybe he makes really good pizza that's brought some good vibes.

[Josh Dean]

The universe needs his pizza.

[Rory Scoville]

The universe. He has made a lot of people happy.

[Josh Dean]

It's the best pizza in Allentown. So daughter's other boyfriend, 20 year old. So we're stepping it up. And we're no more teens. It's now a man, a 20 year old named Anthony Bruno. That sounds like a guy I trust to take care of my killing.

[Rory Scoville]

This sounds like a guy who knows how to get the job done, if

[Josh Dean]

you know what I'm saying.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Okay. One night in January 1983, Anthony Bruno sneaks into the toto's house and shoots Tony with Tony's own gun, which was stored in their bedroom.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay, this is smart. This is more effective. This is solution.

[Josh Dean]

Yep. So the bullet hits Tony in the head, but somehow he doesn't die. He's just badly maimed.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So wounded, not dead. But Frances isn't a quitter. She puts sleeping pills in a bowl of chicken soup and feeds it to Tony, who Is that a little bit out of it because he's been shot, but maybe isn't totally aware. Unclear, I'm guessing because he probably should have been in a hospital.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

The bullet hits him in the. He's not dead, but he's out of it. He's now got sleeping pills. These don't kill him either. They just put him in a even deeper dazed, half asleep state.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, my God.

[Josh Dean]

So he stayed like this, hopped up on sleeping pills with a bullet in his head for two full days.

[Rory Scoville]

Look, I'm team Tony. I'm team Tony. He clearly makes very good pizza.

[Josh Dean]

Also, maybe like. Like there's a higher calling here. Like Tony, like he just. You can't be killed.

[Rory Scoville]

I bet he's got a fun pizza shop. I bet when you walk in, he's got the red and white, you know, tablecloths. I bet you it's that smell. There's a Ms. Pac man in the corner with Galaga Options.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, there's, like, a picture on the. He's got Billy Joel in a frame

[Rory Scoville]

and it's signed, and Billy Joel's been to the pizza place.

[Josh Dean]

So, yes, Allentown can't lose this man.

[Rory Scoville]

Only the good die young. That's not Tony.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, look at that. Just a Billy Joel reference. Just whipped it out.

[Rory Scoville]

Tony's good people.

[Josh Dean]

According to Tony later, he didn't feel anything, and he didn't really have any idea what was going on. Francis told him he had the flu. And he believed her?

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

And the poor guy thinks his wife is nursing him back to health when she's actually trying to do the opposite. So Francis then pays a couple of Anthony Bruno's buddies named Ronald and Donald.

[Rory Scoville]

Shut the fuck up.

[Josh Dean]

$500 to shoot her cheating husband Again. I don't know why Anthony can't do it, but we need Ronald and Donald, the cousins, because we need a gang at this point.

[Rory Scoville]

We need more voices.

[Josh Dean]

They did shoot him in the chest, but they missed his heart by an inch. So Tony laid there for two more days until the police got a tip and showed up at the house, where they found him in bed and told him he'd been shot. He was so out of it, he didn't believe them.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So Tony is taken to a hospital, and finally, six murder attempts in seven, depending how you want to calculate. Francis, Anthony, and his friends, plus two of the Toto's kids are all arrested.

[Rory Scoville]

This is something philosophical here, Josh. Are we led to believe that we are only truly dead when we believe we are? Like, can we live forever if we don't think we've died?

[Josh Dean]

I mean, Tony would seem to be a living example of that, where he's like, I was not shy. I don't know what you're talking about.

[Rory Scoville]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Josh Dean]

I got the flu.

[Rory Scoville]

I have the flu. They're like, you're bleeding so much, it's insane.

[Josh Dean]

There's a bullet wound in your head,

[Rory Scoville]

and there's one that's an inch from your heart where all the blood is kind of coming through.

[Josh Dean]

Well, it is like one of those things your mom tells you, like, mind over matter. If you just, like, think positively, like,

[Rory Scoville]

you know, how did they not immediately put him on SEAL Team 6? I mean, he's ready to go.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, my God. So after two weeks in the hospital, he has a full recovery. The doctors had to leave the bullet.

[Rory Scoville]

Wait, how.

[Josh Dean]

How long in the hospital? Just two weeks.

[Rory Scoville]

Is that. How long is that I wonder if that's most humans. Like, how long does it take to recover from a bullet wound?

[Josh Dean]

Two.

[Rory Scoville]

Two man.

[Josh Dean]

The doctors had to leave the bullet in his head. He still has it to this day. So the doctors theorized that the sleeping pills his wife gave him in the hopes they might actually kill him may have saved his life by lowering his metabolism and slowing the bleeding from the gunshot wound. So she saved his life by trying to kill him.

[Rory Scoville]

Oh, I wonder if she's got a lawyer who's good enough to work that angle.

[Josh Dean]

Well, there's a big twist coming here, Rory.

[Rory Scoville]

Ah, gee, Josh, I told you a month ago, no more twists.

[Josh Dean]

So, all in all, just to sum up. First, Tony Toto survived two shootings, plus one almost shooting. He avoided a baseball bat, a tripwire, and a car bomb. The philandering Pizza olo. Pizza olo. I don't know how you pronounce that word. The guy who makes pizza. You cheated death six times. This guy just loves to cheat.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, nice. Nice moves. Tony would have loved that. See what I did that?

[Josh Dean]

Francis was charged with solicitation to commit murder. Tony later said that he was angry for a few days, but then he started to think about his part in this mess. Yeah, their marriage was far from perfect. And he did cheat a lot.

[Rory Scoville]

Tony is incredible. He's incredible.

[Josh Dean]

He should be sainted is what you're saying, right?

[Rory Scoville]

I mean, look, he made some mistakes, but the fact that he came out of. He came through this and he's like, you know, I'm not Dr. Perfect either.

[Josh Dean]

He decides to forgive Frances, and he even bailed her out of prison. He put 50 grand up to spring the woman who tried to kill him six times. Asked the police to drop the charges, which they wouldn't do. And so Francis pleaded guilty and was sentenced to four years in prison.

[Rory Scoville]

Jiminy Christmas.

[Josh Dean]

I know. Wow, it's like a Hallmark movie.

[Rory Scoville]

That's a hell of a Hallmark movie right there.

[Josh Dean]

A very dark one.

[Rory Scoville]

That's what I want to see.

[Josh Dean]

Anthony Bruno and his pals Ronald and Donald also pleaded guilty. The 14 year old with a baseball bat got off for cooperating with police. And Donald Earney, the guy who set up the failed tripwire and the bad car bomb, wasn't even charged. I guess because his schemes were too

[Rory Scoville]

lame to actually even take him serious enough. They're like, get out of here, you.

[Josh Dean]

That was embarrassing. Get out of here.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, why would you even admit any of that?

[Josh Dean]

And here's the twist. In the end, Tony and Francis stayed together. He'd Visit her in prison and decided to stop cheating and sell the pizza place. He became a printer so he'd have better hours. And he took up karate in his free time. When she got out, Francis became an administrative assistant at an organization that helps female former convicts. And don't worry, they went to couples therapy, which must have worked because they're still together. This year will be their 60th anniversary.

[Rory Scoville]

That's unreal.

[Josh Dean]

Incredible, right?

[Rory Scoville]

That's incredible.

[Josh Dean]

On top of all that, they signed a big Hollywood deal. Their story was turned into a movie starring Kevin Klein and Tracey Oldman called I love you to death. The toto's loved the movie. Tony said it was 99% accurate. They changed the poison chicken soup to poison spaghetti.

[Rory Scoville]

Classic. You know, these little alterations that mean the world to us, the audience.

[Josh Dean]

We're gonna play a little bit of you, of Tony and Francis. Here.

[Rory Scoville]

Love this. Love this already. Did I forgive her? Yes.

[Cal Penn]

Nothing happened to me.

[Rory Scoville]

It's okay. Don't do it again, friend.

[Cal Penn]

Take it easy, eh?

[Rory Scoville]

He's fine.

[Cal Penn]

Grab an espresso coffee, eh?

[Lane Rose]

And while they stopped talking publicly about what happened long ago, if we could

[Cal Penn]

help one or two family, it's worth it.

[Rory Scoville]

Look, I am team Tony for sure. There's no change in that for me.

[Josh Dean]

Amazing. Have you come around on Francis, too?

[Rory Scoville]

Honestly, I. Honestly, after just seeing her demeanor, I'm like, I don't even think she did it. I don't even think she's a part of this.

[Josh Dean]

She's like, oh, it was cute. I loved you so much.

[Rory Scoville]

You know, whatever. We don't like talking about it. Oh, yeah? Do you think. Don't do it again. He's doing bits. Hey, don't do it again. Hey, wait, day, let's keep it down.

[Josh Dean]

I'm trying to present as many opportunities for you to do your Italian impression as possible.

[Rory Scoville]

I know. I know you do. And I try to spot them every

[Josh Dean]

time till we get you canceled by the Italian American Society of America.

[Rory Scoville]

Thank you. They're after me.

[Josh Dean]

So did you enjoy those stories, Rory?

[Rory Scoville]

Absolutely. Oh, my God.

[Josh Dean]

I got one more for you.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Palate cleanser short. Maybe even more unbelievable than the last one. Okay, High bar, right?

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So for this one, we travel all the way across the globe to Guangxi, China. Okay, don't know where that is in China, but it's a large city where a businessman named Tan Yuhee was sued by a competitor referred to as Wei. In the reports I've seen, as I'm sure you know, Rory, legal fees are expensive. So Tan decided to cut some corners. What do you think he decided to do?

[Rory Scoville]

Represent himself?

[Josh Dean]

I don't know what you mean. He figured it would be cheaper to just get rid of way. By killing him?

[Rory Scoville]

Yes.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, Yeah, I think that's what you meant, right?

[Rory Scoville]

Sort of. I didn't know how to. You know, I can't tell with you anymore, Josh. With these curveballs and these twists, he

[Josh Dean]

could just choose to use the legal system and defend himself like. But now let's just kill him instead.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So here's what happened. Tan pays a hitman 2 million yuan, which is about US$282,000 according to exchange rates at the time of this writing, to kill Wei. But that particular hitman, we don't know why, unfortunately. Maybe his kid had soccer, his wife was traveling, he couldn't do the job. So he takes a page out of hillbilly heist and he subcontract.

[Rory Scoville]

Yes.

[Josh Dean]

To another hitman who he paid 1 million yuan. That's half, Rory. Okay, so he's keeping half. Subcontracting, I mean, good business decision, right?

[Rory Scoville]

I think so.

[Josh Dean]

Keep half so he's not going to have to. Murder keeps half the money.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. This is also a recurring theme. Anytime someone subcontracts, this is always. This is just the recurring theme of it.

[Josh Dean]

And you know, if it's on crimeless, it's going to go well.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So, okay, half of 282,000 is 141,000. That's easy math. I can do that. I didn't tell you there would be math, but I think you could have have probably done that one.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

Okay, so here's the thing. That hitman couldn't do it either.

[Rory Scoville]

Just keeps going down the pipe.

[Josh Dean]

So he hires another hitman.

[Rory Scoville]

Yep. Smart.

[Josh Dean]

This time for 770,000 yuan. And that hitman, he hired yet another hitman.

[Rory Scoville]

So you were on the. We're on three hitmen.

[Josh Dean]

I believe four. Yeah, let's see.

[Rory Scoville]

Half.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, four and four. And then number four hires yet another hitman for 700,000 yuan. And the this guy hitman number four or five, I don't know, I've already lost count. He's a little more savvy than the last couple. Actually. I believe this is five. I believe this is the fourth subcontract in the fifth person. So he hires yet another hitman. In this case, he really cuts his cost. He pays the poor sucker a measly 100,000 yuan, which leaves him a bunch of profit. Can you guess what that hitman did I guess that'd be number six.

[Rory Scoville]

No, hired another hitman.

[Josh Dean]

It's only $14,000, which I think is not enough to convince the last guy in the chain to really kill someone. Finally, it's just like he breaks the cycle. That would be Hitman. His name is Ling Jiang. He meets the target, Wei, at a cafe and tells him all about the plot. Okay, so finally it's gotten so low that one guy's like, you know what? No, yeah, I'll take your money and I'm turning you fuckers in. Yeah. So, but he does. He has a clever idea. Wei should fake his own death. So they hatch a plan for Ling to take a photo of him tied up, which he would take to the hitman above him, presumably so no one else would be hired to kill him. And maybe also so Ling would get paid the full fee. So they're going to stage a killing, try and get the guy. All these killers off of Wei's back, also get Ling paid. Everybody wins, right?

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

But way decides to go to the cops instead of going forward with the plan. So in total, five hitmen were all arrested for agreeing to murder Wei, as was the businessman who put out the first hit. After a three year trial, all six men convicted of attempted murder.

[Rory Scoville]

And that's a RICO case. I know it's not, but I just, you know, learned that phrase and I just wanted to try to use it as much as I can.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, I don't know how to check your math on that. I think it's probably right. That's definitely what RICO is.

[Rory Scoville]

That's the RICO math.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, that's clearly a case of rico. It's like Russian nesting doll. Hitman. That'd be a good Christmas gift. Yeah, Russian dolls, but they're. Each one is a little tiny hitman with a little gun.

[Rory Scoville]

Little Chucky.

[Josh Dean]

So that is an incredibly true story. I wish I had more details. I'm sure that will also be a movie, by the way, because it's too

[Rory Scoville]

amazing not to be the story of seven hitmen.

[Josh Dean]

That brings me to the end of my attempted murder stories for today. I hope you've learned something.

[Rory Scoville]

I have. I've learned quite a bit. Always use the mail, don't be afraid of the usps.

[Josh Dean]

And when in doubt, male spiders. That's right after the break. What do we have?

[Rory Scoville]

Rory Lanes games.

[Josh Dean]

A very subdued Lanes games. Back in a minute.

[Cal Penn]

Hey, everyone, it's Cal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone, very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these scenes and it's like, okay, yo yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that that deeply, emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too.

[Cal Penn]

Listen to Earsick, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Pets Best Advertiser]

Protect your pet with insurance from Pets Best plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com Policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10 Ever wonder

[Martha Stewart]

how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret when prepping for cooking and baking, get ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchens Countertop prep paper. Just lightly wet the counter so the paper grips. Lay it down and drips and spills stay on the paper, not on your counter. Cleanup is as simple as lifting it away to reveal clean counters. Effortless it is thanks to Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Wet it, set it, prep it. Done. Available in the Reynolds Wrap aisle at Walmart, Target, Amazon and Costco.

[Jana Kramer]

This is Jana Kramer from Wind down with Jana Kramer. Instead of giving your mom something that fades, give her something that becomes part of her home this Mother's Day. The Lenox Spice Village is a set of 24 hand painted little houses that are actually spice jars. Perfect for anyone who loves to cook, entertain or enjoy the little details that make everyday life special. As a mom, I love gifts that help turn ordinary moments into memories. Charming, timeless and meant to be Used. This is one of those pieces she'll treasure. And once you see it, you'll want it for your own home, too. Find the full [e-mail] SpiceVillage

[Martha Stewart]

this is crimeless.

[Josh Dean]

Welcome back to Crimeless, the podcast that would never subcontract its murderers because murder is very bad.

[Rory Scoville]

That's right.

[Josh Dean]

We might, however, kill you with some razor sharp humor. Anyway, it's that time of the episode where we beam Lane in from Chicago for a segment Rory likes to call Lane's Games. Lane, what are we doing this week?

[Lane Rose]

So we could either do the spider math that we talked about at the top, or we could do the game I planned, or we could do both.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, well, I think spider math would be fat. Rory and I have already guessed. Right. Do you know the answer?

[Lane Rose]

Yeah, I looked it up.

[Rory Scoville]

Yes. I have to know this.

[Josh Dean]

So I guessed 50,000, I think. What did you.

[Rory Scoville]

I changed mine to 10. I went from five to 10. Three to 10.

[Josh Dean]

Three.

[Rory Scoville]

Three to 10.

[Josh Dean]

I went 50.

[Lane Rose]

Okay, so this is the math. Also, I'd like to say whatever someone says in high school. I'm never going to use math. Of course you are. You're going to calculate the weight of spiders to rattlesnakes.

[Rory Scoville]

This is the time that we all use math.

[Lane Rose]

Exactly. Okay, so a black widow spider weighs one gram.

[Josh Dean]

Okay.

[Lane Rose]

Pretty good even number. And I looked it up. The snake that was mailed was a northern Pacific rattlesnake, which weighs around 2 pounds. That it's probably heaviest.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, it's a small little guy. Okay. Yeah.

[Lane Rose]

Okay, so there are 907 grams in two pounds. So that's 907 black widow spiders.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, wow.

[Rory Scoville]

What? 907. But we were also guessing for a snake that weighed six pounds.

[Josh Dean]

Well, that's true. Okay, if it's six pounds.

[Rory Scoville]

So 27. So kind of close to 2,700. Close to 3,000.

[Lane Rose]

Yeah. I think your initial one was more correct.

[Josh Dean]

What?

[Rory Scoville]

Guys, I just. There was something in the air that made me guess that and then completely second guess myself and go to 10,000 because I'm a follower. And I saw Josh go to 50,

[Lane Rose]

and six pounds is 2,721 grams.

[Josh Dean]

Wow. Rory's first guess was 3,000. That's incredible.

[Lane Rose]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

How is that possible?

[Rory Scoville]

I don't. I honestly don't even know.

[Josh Dean]

I don't even know where I got any of that.

[Rory Scoville]

I felt ridiculous saying 3,000.

[Lane Rose]

Get that man on a trivia team.

[Rory Scoville]

Thank you.

[Josh Dean]

All right, Lane. So that was Rory. Rory won the how many spiders as a snake Way game spider bonus. It was a route.

[Rory Scoville]

How Many Spiders Make a Snake? Tonight on How Many Spiders Make a Snake?

[Lane Rose]

The other game that I have. Honestly, not as well. No, it's pretty fun. I'm not going to lie.

[Josh Dean]

I mean, don't undersell it here. Yeah, yeah, right off the top.

[Lane Rose]

This episode, obviously was about failed murder attempts. I would say the most famous failed murder attempt character is Wile E. Coyote.

[Josh Dean]

Yep.

[Lane Rose]

So today is dedicated to Wile E. Coyote and the Roadrunner, his prey. Yep. So we got some trivia about Wile E. Coyote. Okay, first one, Wile E. Coyote and the Roadrunner first appeared in 1949 in a theatrical short. What was that short called?

[Rory Scoville]

I have no idea. And that's actually my guess. My guess is I have no idea.

[Lane Rose]

I have some multiple choice. A, to beep or not to beep. B, Fast and Furious.

[Rory Scoville]

Okay.

[Lane Rose]

C, Coyote Ugly or D, zip, zap, zoom.

[Rory Scoville]

It's not the middle two, Josh.

[Josh Dean]

It's zip, zap, zoom. I'm going with the last one.

[Rory Scoville]

I'm gonna go with the first one. Just to mix it up since I won. Since I'm playing with spider money right now.

[Lane Rose]

Nope. It was B, Fast and Furious. I know, right?

[Rory Scoville]

Kind of crazy. Lane.

[Josh Dean]

I was sure that one wasn't it.

[Rory Scoville]

Lane. Unreal to do that to us.

[Josh Dean]

So it was Vin Diesel. Thing was a remake, I guess.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, it's a little bit of a remake.

[Lane Rose]

It all goes back to Wile E. Coyote. All right, so the name Wile E. Coyote is a pun of the word wiley. However, in one issue of a Looney Tunes comic book, the E stands for something. Is it A, Ethelbert, B, Eggman, C, Emmett. Or D, Emily?

[Rory Scoville]

C. Emmett. What was B, Eggman.

[Josh Dean]

I'm going Eggman.

[Lane Rose]

It was A. Ethelbert.

[Rory Scoville]

What? I actually kind of was gonna go A. Then I didn't.

[Josh Dean]

Do you know what the E in Chuck E. Cheese stands for? Rory.

[Rory Scoville]

Excellent.

[Josh Dean]

No, his full name is Charles Entertainment Cheese.

[Rory Scoville]

All right, I get it.

[Josh Dean]

Do I get a bonus point for that?

[Rory Scoville]

Good friend, Smart. Smart.

[Lane Rose]

You don't get a bonus point for a trivia question you posed and then answered.

[Rory Scoville]

Yeah, that actually is a good. Yeah, but also, I really respect that attempt at trying to get that bonus point.

[Lane Rose]

Yeah, sorry. So far, you're both 00.

[Josh Dean]

All right, 00.

[Lane Rose]

Animator Chuck Jones was inspired by a description of a coyote that he read in a semi autobiographical book. In that book, the author described a coyote as a long, slim, sick and sorry looking skeleton. That is a living, breathing allegory of want. He is always hungry. What book is that from? Is it A, David Copperfield by Charles Dickens, B, a Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway, C, the Bible by God, or D Roughing it by Mark Twain?

[Josh Dean]

Wait, what Mark Twain book?

[Lane Rose]

Roughing it by Mark Twain.

[Rory Scoville]

I love the Bible by God.

[Lane Rose]

It's the greatest author.

[Rory Scoville]

Wow.

[Josh Dean]

I'm going Mark Twain.

[Rory Scoville]

I. That does feel. I'm also going to go Mark Twain.

[Lane Rose]

Correct. It's Mark Twain.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah.

[Lane Rose]

You're one and one. The most violent episode in the history of the franchise is called Beep Beep. Based on the frequency and variety of violence, which of the following is not depicted in that episode? A, A dropped anvil, B a giant magnet, C rocket on wheels, or D rocket powered roller skates.

[Josh Dean]

Oh, tough one.

[Rory Scoville]

Which one is not?

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, I can picture all of them. I feel like.

[Rory Scoville]

Let me go D. I'm going to go.

[Lane Rose]

C. Sorry, it was giant magnet. That's not in that episode. All right, I watched it to check. Classic Coyote leans heavily on the Acme Corporation to help source his traps, bombs, anvils, etc. Only counting the first 40 original episodes. How much money does Coyote spend on Acme products? This is based off a company called Havahart, a wildlife control solutions company's blog. They wrote about this in depth. So a $10,000, b $500,000, c $7,000 or d $2,000. It's adjusted for inflation.

[Josh Dean]

So some wildlife company went and factored to the math. Math is. Your teacher was right. Math is important everywhere.

[Lane Rose]

It really is.

[Rory Scoville]

I'm gonna go with the highest amount. B, $500,000.

[Josh Dean]

I'm gonna go with the lowest amount.

[Lane Rose]

Okay, so you're both wrong. It was C, $7,000. It's always C. It's always C. Not really. Last one. Coyote does eventually catch roadrunner in the 1980s special soup or Sonic. What happens when he does? A. He swallows him whole in one bite, but the roadrunner runs right through him. B. He turns to the audience and asks, okay, wise guys, you always wanted me to catch him. Now what do I do? C. Lets him go after he sees how scared the roadrunner is. D. Asks the roadrunner to chase him.

[Josh Dean]

A. D. Sorry, guys, it was.

[Lane Rose]

B. Turns to the audience and asks, okay, wise guys.

[Rory Scoville]

That was the only one I thought was definitely not it.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, that seemed like a lock to me too. Shows how much we know hard Looney Tunes. I got a Wiley Coyote. Wiley Ethel Engelbert Wiley Ethelbert Coyote.

[Rory Scoville]

There it is.

[Josh Dean]

I can add that to the Charles Entertainment cheese trivia portion of my brain middle names of cartoon characters.

[Lane Rose]

All right, tied.

[Josh Dean]

So we tied, but I will Rory clearly get the tiebreaker by knowing the weight of how many spiders weighs a snake.

[Rory Scoville]

How many spiders makes a snake?

[Josh Dean]

I think I said how many spiders weighs a snake? Which. That's a different question. How many spiders would it take to get a snake to conclude what they

[Rory Scoville]

think a snake weighs?

[Josh Dean]

All right, we'll see you next week. Bye Bye. Crimeless is a production of Smartless Media, Campside Media and Big Money Players in partnership with iHeart podcasts. It's hosted by Rory Scoville and me, Josh Dean. Our senior producer is Lane Rose. Emma Siminoff is our associate producer. We're sound, designed and engineered by Blake Brook with support from Ewan Leitramuin. Mark McAdam composed our theme song. The executive producers at Campside Media are Vanessa Gregoriadas, Matt Sher and me, Josh Dean. The executive producers for iHeart Podcast and Big Money Players are Jack O', Brien, Lindsey Hoffman and Matt Apodaca. For Smartlands Media, the executive producers are Will Arnett, Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes and Richard Courson. Bernie Kaminski is head of production. The associate producer is Matty McCann. A special thanks to our operations team, Ashley Warren and Sabina Mara. Do you have a question, comment or confession for the Crimless team? Email [e-mail] and if you enjoyed Crimeless, please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts. It helps people find the show and also makes us feel validated. Unless you're mean, in which case keep it to yourself. We'll see you next week. Crimeless Nation.

[Podcast Announcer]

This is Sophia Donner from OK Storytime this summer. Find your next obsession on Prime Video and listen. We're not saying you need another obsession, but there could be a lot worse ones. Steamy romance, addictive love stories and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice, so why not watch them a third time off campus? Elle, the Love Hypothesis and more Slow Burns Second Chances chemistry you can feel through the screen and it makes you wish you were actually in that movie. We've got binge worthy series can't miss movies perfect for when you're ignoring your own problems or procrastinating as one does. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.

[Martha Stewart]

Ever wonder how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret. Getting ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper. Just lightly wet the counter beforehand so the paper grips and stays in place. Then lay down the Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper so drips and spills stay on the paper, not all over your kitchen counter. You can roll out dough, prep a party spread, or cook alongside family. When you're done, cleanup is as simple as lifting the paper and revealing that clean counter underneath. Effortless. You can use it for cooking and baking, prep and even crafting, especially when you need extra working space. Because when the mess is already handled, you can focus on what matters the food, the people, and the moment. It may look effortless, but now you know it's Reynolds Kitchens Countertop Prep Paper. Take a tip from me. Wet it, set it, prep it. Done. Make it easy. Make it with Reynolds Kitchens Countertop prep paper available now in the Reynolds Wrap aisle in Walmart, Target, Amazon and Costco.

[Rory Scoville]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoy. It's not just for celebrities, so do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Pets Best Advertiser]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] from sauce to dust

[Rory Scoville]

to nuggets Diablo dust to Crispy Chicken nuggets. No, they don't come in mild. That would make like zero sense with the name new Diablo Dusted Crispy Chicken Nuggets only at Taco Bell at participating UL locations for a limited time and while supplies last.

[Podcast Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Rory Scoville]

Guaranteed Human.