Le Embezzlement

Summary

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CrimeLess: "Le Embezzlement"

Podcast: CrimeLess
Hosts: Rory Scovel (comedian) & Josh Dean (journalist, true crime podcaster)
Release Date: December 17, 2025
Main Theme:
A comedic deep dive into a real-life French embezzlement case where a trusted mayor gets swindled by a local psychic—complete with nudist resorts, imaginary friends, ancient Egyptian past lives, and truly creative corruption.

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the wilder side of white-collar crime in the form of a French mayor's downfall at the hands of a town psychic. Rory and Josh recount the story of Mayor Gilles Detour, the colorful town of Agda (famous for its nudist resorts), and Sophia Martinez—a medium who convinced the mayor to lavish her with gifts, jobs, and city funds after allegedly channeling his dead father. The hosts unpack the slippery line between gullibility and criminality, blending sharp humor and genuine insights into the human psyche’s soft spots for the supernatural.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: Welcome to Agda, the Naked City

• Agda, France: The town swells from 30,000 to 300,000 in the summer due to its reputation as the world’s largest nudist resort—"the Naked City."
• Rory teases: "Get out there, you naked pigs. Go soak up some of that sun. Turn into bacon as fast as you can." (08:36)
• Naturists vs. Swingers: Tension in town arises as traditional nudists clash with sex-party-seeking swingers, leading (allegedly) to arson at local sex clubs.
• Josh: "This is just providing some very important full frontal context for the setting..." (09:51)

2. Mayor Gilles Detour: Local Celebrity Turned Mark

• Gilles Detour: Five-term, deeply-rooted mayor from a family of politicians, highly respected, with underlying “daddy issues” due to the shadow of his deceased father (06:04, 10:48).
• Josh: "He’s celebrating his fifth win when a colleague introduces him to a healer and medium..." (10:48)

3. Enter Sophia Martinez, Psychic Extraordinaire

• Sophia’s Profile: Stylish, 40s, six kids, three marriages, known for cleansing energies and seances. Clients include townsfolk and cops (11:47).
• Gilles’ Vulnerabilities: Struggling with his father’s death, open to spiritual contact—easily susceptible to Sophia’s charms.
• The First Sessions: Sophia impresses Gilles with eerily accurate info about his father, deepening his trust (12:11).

4. The Con: "Papa" Calls from Beyond

• Breakthrough Session: One day, while on the phone with Sophia, Gilles hears a deep, masculine voice introducing himself as "Papa," his dad’s nickname. (17:28–18:10)
• Sophia's Ventriloquism: The “spirit” of Papa contacts Gilles over 3,375 times in a year (over 10 calls a day!), steering him toward lavish generosity. (25:51–26:07)
• Scope of Manipulation: Papa claims Gilles was an Egyptian priestess in a past life and Sophia is the reincarnated child he had with Tutankhamun. Gilles is cosmically bonded to protect her. (20:43)
• "Swinging for the fences with this reincarnated...could have used, like, you know, an old French guy. Nope." – Josh (21:29)

5. Embezzlement in Action

• Misuse of Public Funds: Gilles pays for Sophia’s birthday parties, weddings, and even a comic book, all disguised through creative town bookkeeping (23:18).
• Sophia’s relatives receive town hall jobs. The mayor funds Sophia’s “From Darkness to Light” comic (22:23).
• Josh: "I got to imagine, on some level, embezzlement is happening at every—maybe you’re not paying off the medium who’s the reincarnated form of your daughter with Tutankhamun..." (23:42)

6. The Fall: Discovery & Wiretaps

• Exposed by the Ex-Wife: Gilles' ex Geraldine reports Sophia for “bewitching” the mayor and suspects municipal funds are paying for Sophia’s luxuries. (24:17)
• Wiretapping: French police wiretap Gilles, confirming thousands of calls with Sophia/"Papa."
• Shocking Revelation: Police realize the “Papa” voice is Sophia herself, not a male accomplice or actual spirit. “She was so good at throwing her voice that he thought, not only is this a man, but this is my father.” (27:12)

7. Aftermath: The Legal Tangle

• Sophia Confesses: She admits to making up Papa’s voice, explaining it started as an imaginary friend from childhood and snowballed into a major con. (27:32)
• Sophia: "I’ve entered a role playing game and I can’t get out. Like someone who drinks and can’t stop." (29:50)
• Both charged: Gilles, for embezzlement and corruption; Sophia for embezzlement and tax fraud. Both serve several months before trial. Gilles resigns. (31:40–32:19)
• Sophia is banned from practicing as a psychic, though enforcement is humorously questioned by the hosts. (32:53)
• “How do you stop someone from being a psychic? ...How do you even get that business license?” – Rory (33:11)

8. The Town Today: Pandemic Irony and Social Truce

• Naturists vs. Swingers detente: COVID-19 hits Agda hard, with a 30% positive rate among naturists, forging a truce out of necessity (34:29).
• “The lesson is the naked people learn to wear masks, if not pants.” – Josh (35:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Setting Up a Scam:
  "Establish a successful psychic practice and bewitch a city official to lavish you with gifts." — Josh Dean (03:23)
• On Gullibility:
  “He thinks Sophia is too dumb to be making this up, But I wonder who’s the dumb one?” — Josh Dean (19:25)
• On the Sheer Scope of the Con:
  “He gave her relatives cushy jobs at town hall. He funded her passion project, which was naturally a comic book.” — Josh Dean (22:09)
• On Legal Responsibility:
  "I think that her power of persuasion, that's on him to be so gullible, to fall for it." — Rory Scovel (30:23)
• On Psychic Regulation:
  "How do you even get that business license? ...Go ahead and tell people you can talk to the beyond, but it's 7%." — Rory Scovel (33:17)
• On Naked Town Pandemic Response:
  "The lesson is the naked people learn to wear masks, if not pants." — Josh Dean (35:09)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:29: How do you embezzle from the government? Introducing the French case.
• 07:28: What is a naturist resort? Agda’s claim to fame.
• 10:48: Mayor’s origin story; introduction to Sophia the psychic.
• 12:11: First “spiritual session” between the mayor and Sophia.
• 17:28: The “Papa” voice appears—allegedly Gilles’ late father.
• 20:43: Papa’s wild proclamations about Egyptian priestess past lives.
• 22:03: Payments, projects, and questionable municipal generosity start.
• 23:18: Laundry list of misappropriated funds—veranda, jobs, comic book.
• 24:47: Police wiretap discovery: 3,375 calls in one year.
• 27:07: Reveal: Sophia was “Papa” all along.
• 29:50: Sophia’s addiction to attention and the scheme.
• 31:40: Charges detailed, fall from grace.
• 33:06: Aftermath—bans, questions about enforcing psychic “licenses.”
• 34:29: COVID-19’s impact leads to temporary peace among local naturists and swingers.
• 40:51: The hosts cap the episode with a tarot reading segment.

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Closing Segment: Tarot Time

• Producer Lane leads a tarot reading for Rory and Josh, blurting out card meanings and inviting playful banter about fate, fortune, and the reliability of supernatural advice.

Key takeaway from Rory:

"If you're willing to connect dots, they will connect. And if you don't want to, it can feel ridiculous. But...why can't this be a valid way of getting through life?"

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Final Notes

The episode blends clever crime analysis with irreverent humor—exploring the psychology of both con artist and victim. It doesn’t just highlight the wild facts of the case, but interrogates why (and how) we fall for so much, especially when it comes from the “other side.” The wild ride concludes with a tongue-in-cheek tarot reading, tying the whole theme of magical thinking, gullibility, and the human craving for answers—no matter how outlandish the source.

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Transcript

[Rory Scovel]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Josh Whalen]

Guaranteed human if you're paying more than $1 a month for any ED or hair medication. Listen up at Joy and Blokes. When you start TRT or enclomiphene, you can add any ED or hair loss prescription for just $1 a month. $1 add ons with your hormone plan and right now all labs are 50% off. I'm Josh Whalen, founder of Joy and Blokes. I built this company because men are tired of paying for fragmented care and without results. Every Joy and BL lab includes a visit with a licensed clinician who connects your symptoms to your biomarkers. You'll get a real plan that covers hormones, performance and confidence. If you're considering TRT or Enclomiphene, this is the most efficient way to do it. Get [e-mail] and use a promo code. Podcast new customers get 50% off their labs and for a limited time, you can take advantage of our $1ed or hair loss add ons. But when you start TRT or enclomiphene, not available in all states, Compounded medications are not FDA approved. Learn more at joyandbloaks.com hi Kyle, could.

[Evan Ratliff]

You draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Josh Dean]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet.

[Josh Dean]

I'm Evan Ratliff, here with a story.

[Evan Ratliff]

Of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people. Check out the second season of my podcast Shell Game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Matt Graves]

Hey, listeners, this is Matt Graves, host of the Butcher of Mals, the unbelievable story of a terrifying series of sadistic murders and a quest to find the killer three decades later. I'm excited to share the Butcher of Mons with you and want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an I Heart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for Iheart True Crime plus and subscribe today.

[Josh Dean]

Papa needs a break. I don't know why I sounded like the Exorcist there.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah, why was that? I remember I was a smoker.

[Matt Graves]

Campsite Media smart.

[Rory Scovel]

Bless media.

[Josh Dean]

So, Rory, what's the best way to embezzle money from the government.

[Rory Scovel]

Why do you. Why do you ask it as though you think I'm some sort of hardened criminal on this podcast? And that's what I bring to the show, is knowing how to embezzle money. Also, I. I want to backtrack and say thank you for respecting me enough to know what embezzle means. First thing that came to to mind. And this has made me way off. For some reason, my brain was like the horse races.

[Josh Dean]

Okay, so you're the. So you work in a town with a horse track. Okay. Okay.

[Rory Scovel]

Oh, well, we all aspire to greater heights, and mine is horse track racing in town.

[Josh Dean]

Okay, well, this was a tough one. I didn't expect you to have an embezzlement scheme in mind. Each of these is a test, right? If you answered right away, we might be worried.

[Rory Scovel]

That's a good point.

[Josh Dean]

But the answer I was looking for was establish a successful psychic practice and bewitch a city official to lavish you with gifts.

[Rory Scovel]

Okay, this is gonna sound crazy, but psychically, that was gonna be my second thing I was gonna say, so. Believe that or not, this week we're.

[Josh Dean]

Going deep inside the wild world of psychics. Mediums who prey on innocent mayors. Pas de chain. Which means, I think, don't change the channel if Google can be believed. Welcome back to Crimeless, the podcast that celebrates the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals. I'm Josh Dean.

[Rory Scovel]

And I am Rory Scovel.

[Josh Dean]

Okay, Rory, today's story, as I said, takes place in France. Have you ever been to France?

[Rory Scovel]

I've been to France for my honeymoon.

[Josh Dean]

Was it as romantic as they say?

[Rory Scovel]

It was very romantic. We rented a car after being in Paris a little bit, and then drove to the south of France and then over to Italy, and it was great. I got a flat tire immediately in a small town, and my wife had to go into a pub and speak a little bit of French to see if anyone could help us with the tire.

[Josh Dean]

Did they?

[Rory Scovel]

They did. An old man showed up, and I thought we would need more than just changing a tire type situation. But I found all the tools before he got there, and I started to change the tire, and then he showed up and was like, oh, you Americans. Don't you need someone else to change your tire for you? And it's only because I didn't think we had the tools.

[Josh Dean]

All right, for all of our fans in the south of France, including old men who fix tires, this actually takes place in the south of France. I think you went to the south of France and took a left. This would have been if you'd taken a right.

[Rory Scovel]

So. Yep.

[Josh Dean]

So our story involves a mayor, a psychic, and a disembodied voice from the great beyond. Also a war between nudists and swingers.

[Rory Scovel]

Can't believe I haven't heard this already.

[Josh Dean]

So first, let's meet the mayor who's the star of our story. His name is. And pardon, I can't believe I get to say this unironically, but pardon my French. His name is Gilles Detour. He's a polished looking middle aged guy with salt and pepper hair, looks snappy in a dress shirt, and until things went sideways, he's just another government suit. Unclear whether or not he wears a beret.

[Rory Scovel]

God love that name. Gilles. Nice, Gilles.

[Josh Dean]

He was born in the seaside town of Agda, a little over an hour from the Spanish border. And his father was the deputy mayor in the 1970s. So he got a. He's a second generation politician, of course. He started his career as a secret service officer and a policeman and then returned home to run for office. And as a hometown boy with deep roots, he was very well liked by the people. Gilles began his first term in 2001 and was basically unstoppable. He won five elections in a row. Have you ever run for anything outside.

[Rory Scovel]

Of like student government? No.

[Josh Dean]

Were you student body president?

[Rory Scovel]

No. No. I don't even know what embezzle means. They don't let you.

[Josh Dean]

Fair, fair, fair. So Gilles is on track to make history as the longest sitting mayor in the city's history. All around just a highly respected member of the community.

[Rory Scovel]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

Now, this is a tourist town. It swells from around 30,000 people. So, you know, decent sized town on an average winter day to almost 300,000 during summer. Why do you think that is?

[Rory Scovel]

I mean, people are out and about. They're ready to be, and people want to be in France.

[Josh Dean]

It gets 10 times bigger, though.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah, well, they're. I mean, I couldn't tell you why, but I just assume like anywhere else, people are ready to party.

[Josh Dean]

280,000 people on their honeymoons.

[Rory Scovel]

I think a lot of people get married right before summer kicks in.

[Josh Dean]

All right, I'm sorry, that's incorrect.

[Rory Scovel]

Oh, okay.

[Josh Dean]

Now, do you know what a naturist resort is?

[Rory Scovel]

Is that where they're like, hey, no clothes, just come in. Let's just be Adam and Eve for as long. Let's. Let's be Adam and Eve before apples.

[Josh Dean]

Correct? That is correct. So this town has a nickname like New York it's sometimes called the Naked City, only in this case, it's because it's home to one of the world's most popular nudist resorts.

[Rory Scovel]

Oh, my God. So, but you're saying, just to clarify for our listeners, you're not saying the town is a nudist.

[Josh Dean]

It contains the largest nudist resort, but I think there's a significant amount of spillover. Got it.

[Rory Scovel]

Okay.

[Josh Dean]

I think the borders. I don't know, like, what kind of walled fences or walls we have around nudist resorts. It's a place of freedom. So I'm guessing, like, you know.

[Rory Scovel]

Okay, thank you for that because I wanted to continue to picture something very fun. And so I'm going to.

[Josh Dean]

Okay, great. And we're not just talking about nude beaches in a naturist resort. You grocery shop, you go to the bank, you ride your Vespa with a baguette under your arm, all in the nude. One of the local beaches was nicknamed the Bay of Pigs. And not because it had a connection to Cuba. It was because of the amount of naked people who sun themselves there, which does not paint the sexiest picture of the clientele, I gotta say.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah, it's definitely not complimenting your clientele in any way whatsoever. Get out there, you naked pigs. Go soak up some of that sun. Turn into bacon as fast as you can.

[Josh Dean]

That's a great French accent.

[Rory Scovel]

Thank you. If I didn't pay all that money for voice lessons, I would be upset. But it's paying off.

[Danny Shapiro]

Anyway.

[Josh Dean]

All these naked folks running around has created a bit of a problem. Can you guess what that problem might be?

[Rory Scovel]

No. No, I can't.

[Josh Dean]

AGDA has become a hotspot for swingers and sex parties.

[Rory Scovel]

Oh, okay. Well, I mean, I guess I just thought that was a part of the. Not part of the problem. I thought that was part of the solution.

[Josh Dean]

All right, well, it's created some tension in the community of nudists because more traditional naturists are simply in this for the freedom man. They think swingers have sullied the whole reputation of this beautiful practice.

[Rory Scovel]

Interesting.

[Josh Dean]

So things got weird and even dangerous. According to a 2008 report in the Sunday Times, three separate sex clubs were set on fire and everyone suspected that radical naturists were behind it. I said naturists. Naturists. I'm not sure why.

[Rory Scovel]

I like. I like both naturists. I'm a naturist.

[Josh Dean]

However, that's the story for another episode. This is just providing some very important full frontal context for the setting where this takes place. So.

[Rory Scovel]

Wow, that's a real tease right there, Josh.

[Josh Dean]

So, anyway, we're here to talk about the mayor of this naked town. He's fully clothed for the purposes of this episode. And in 2020, he's celebrating his fifth win when a colleague, a local cop, introduces him to someone. He was like, you got to meet this woman. She's a healer and a medium. She's tre magnifique. And you should also know that the mayor's got some daddy issues. He's always felt like he lived in the shadows of his father. He was an important deputy mayor when Jill was a kid. But then his dad passed away, and ever since then, Jill had been, you know, struggling to cope with it. He had even been getting in touch with the spiritual side, thinking about the meaning of everything, the afterlife, even considering some fringe practices to try and stay in touch with his dad.

[Rory Scovel]

All very classic mayor activity. You know, extracurricular activity.

[Josh Dean]

So when this cop says, you should speak to my psychic, he takes some it seriously, right? He's like, maybe I should think about this. And three months later, he does. He makes an appointment with a woman named Sofia Martinez. Have you ever consulted a psychic?

[Rory Scovel]

I haven't. And part of me feels like they know I'm probably never going to show up.

[Josh Dean]

How about your wife? Did she go to a psychic?

[Rory Scovel]

She's never gone to a psychic, but she is on the verge of becoming a mayor, if you know what I mean. This becomes slang for people who visit psychics. We got a real mayor over here.

[Josh Dean]

Or nudists.

[Rory Scovel]

We got a real nude French mayor over here.

[Josh Dean]

So this woman, Sophia Martinez, was, in her own words, quote, a specialist in the cleansing of energy for people and places. She's in her 40s, she lives in town with her six kids from three marriages. France man.

[Rory Scovel]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

Her services include hypnosis, tarot card readings, even seances. A few former clients have reported objects flying around the room during sessions and that she often reveals details about their lives that she could never have possibly known. And her clientele includes intellectuals, architects, executives, even cops. So the mayor's in good company. He's not like, being crazy or extremely woo woo by going to Sophia.

[Rory Scovel]

Okay, got it.

[Josh Dean]

So let's not judge the mayor yet. So anyway, Sophia and Jules have their first communication session. She tells him things she couldn't possibly have known about his dad, like a nickname his dad had used for his last partner. And Gilles walks away from this meeting convinced that the woman is the real deal. He's like, I trust this woman.

[Danny Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So they start having regular sessions, often by phone. And according to the mayor, their relationship is amicable, although some witnesses have heard him call her darling.

[Rory Scovel]

And also our listeners should know, just because this is all theater of the mind, these two people are fully clothed during these sessions. But if you want a picture that they're both naked, it does add a little spice to the story.

[Josh Dean]

It does. And to be honest, we didn't look that they could be. I mean, we're assuming he was fully clothed because the mayor generally wore clothes. But yeah, let's go there.

[Rory Scovel]

G G's a clothing guy.

[Josh Dean]

Run wild, people. And so, you know, he starts to call her darling and then a few sessions in, things take a turn. Uh oh, that's after the break.

[Josh Whalen]

If you're paying more than $1 a month for any ED or hair medication, listen up at Joy and Blokes. When you start TRT or enclomiphene, you can add any ED or hair loss prescription for just $1 a month. $1 add ons with your hormone plan. And right now all labs are 50% off. I'm Josh Whalen, founder of Joy and Blokes. I built this company because men are tired of paying for fragmented care without results. Every Joy and Blokes lab includes a visit with a licensed clinician who connects your symptoms to your biomarkers. You'll get a real plan that covers hormones, performance and confidence. If you're considering TRT or Enclomiphene, this is the most efficient way to do it. Get [e-mail] and use a promo code podcast. New customers get 50% off their labs. And for a limited time, you can take advantage of our $1ed or hair loss add ons when you start TRT or enclomiphene, not available in all states. Compounded medications are not FDA approved. Learn more at joyandbloaks.com hi Kyle, could.

[Evan Ratliff]

You draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Josh Dean]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.

[Josh Dean]

There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company which would have been like unimaginable without AI. And now will happen.

[Evan Ratliff]

I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.

[Josh Dean]

Oh hey Evan, Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents and so small to medium businesses.

[Evan Ratliff]

Listen to Shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Matt Graves]

Hey listeners, this is Matt Graves, host of le Monstre Season 2, the Butcher of Mals. In the mid-90s in the city of Mals in Belgium, women began to go missing, one after the other. Despite a sprawling investigation, including assistance from the American FBI, the murders have never been solved.

[Josh Dean]

Police are now confirming that the body cut into pieces and stuffed into two plastic.

[Matt Graves]

Three decades later, we've unearthed new evidence, new witnesses and new suspects. I'm excited to share the Butcher of Moss with you and want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an I Heart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus you'll get access to all episodes of the Monster franchise Bingeable ad free and with exclusive bonus episodes available only to I Heart True Crime plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts. Search for I Heart True Crime plus.

[Danny Shapiro]

Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast Family Secrets.

[Rory Scovel]

We were in the car like a rolling stone came on and he said, there's a line in there about your mother. And I said, what?

[Danny Shapiro]

What?

[Rory Scovel]

What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.

[Lane Rose]

I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened.

[Danny Shapiro]

These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming 13th season of Family Secrets. Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us. I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are. Listen to Family secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Josh Dean]

So one day, Gilles talking with Sophia as he normally would. I imagine him giggling while twirling the cord of his landline. A very timely reference. People are like what the are you talking about? When he hears another voice on the line. You didn't see this coming, okay?

[Rory Scovel]

It was. It was his dad. It was his dad.

[Matt Graves]

Damn it, Rory.

[Josh Dean]

You're too good at this show.

[Rory Scovel]

There you go.

[Josh Dean]

You're too good. You're too good. You see? You are a master criminal.

[Rory Scovel]

This is what embezzling means.

[Josh Dean]

It is gonna. It's all gonna come around. So, yes, this voice is deep, masculine, definitely not Sophia. And introduces himself to Gilles as Papa.

[Rory Scovel]

Oh, here we go.

[Josh Dean]

The mayor believes that Papa is none other than. I was gonna ask you to guess. But you already guessed. Yeah, he solved it.

[Rory Scovel]

His dad?

[Josh Dean]

Yeah.

[Rory Scovel]

Why wouldn't you believe that? Of course he's on a phone. Living in the afterlife, that's still a primary form of communication.

[Josh Dean]

And you definitely would not suspect that someone else was doing the voice, right? Of course it's dad. Right.

[Rory Scovel]

Of course. His dad was like, look, I could just come visit you as a ghostly, you know, being, and we could cut out the middleman over here that you're paying for, however. Why would we do that?

[Josh Dean]

I mean, that's what mediums are for, I think.

[Danny Shapiro]

Right?

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, exactly right. Okay, so Gilles is convinced by Sophia's power of her ability to summon voices from the afterlife. She was a conduit for spirits. And these conversations pick up in frequency, often 10 times a day.

[Rory Scovel]

Okay, I don't talk to my wife in the same house ten times a day.

[Josh Dean]

Fair point. Nor do I. Gilles may be a little vulnerable. I don't want to judge yet.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So they're having these. These discussions of incredible depth, the kind he says he could never have had with the regular old Sophia, given her, quote, intellectual capabilities.

[Rory Scovel]

Man. Man.

[Josh Dean]

So he thinks Sophia is too dumb to be making this up, But I wonder who's the dumb one?

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So the mayor starts to see Papa as his spiritual mentor, asking questions about life, death, the meaning of it all. I can't even imagine what advice he could be giving back to the mayor.

[Rory Scovel]

I. I'm. I don't know. I'm just fascinated by the idea of someone just falling for it. Feels like hypnosis. You know what I mean? I've never been hypnotized, but I live in a world of skepticism about it. However, if someone's like, I'll hypnotize you right now, I don't believe that it won't happen. So who knows? Maybe Gilles is, like you said, wildly vulnerable. And at no point is he like, are you sure that. You sure this ain't some other Person. Like, how does this. How does this papa sound? Like his. His Papa.

[Josh Dean]

This is the guy running the town.

[Rory Scovel]

This is also the guy in charge.

[Josh Dean]

Of five consecutive elections. He's. He's an unbeatable incumbent mayor who just keeps winning.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

You know the French, they're romantics.

[Rory Scovel]

Well, now he has a connection to the afterlife. And he can tell all those ghosts, hey, will you go scare voters that were going to vote for the other person not to show up tomorrow?

[Josh Dean]

It's true. One of their favorite topics, one of Papa's favorite topics on the call is Sophia.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

He says, Sophia is special. She's a saint. Gilles was chosen to protect her and her family. And there's one real blockbuster of a revelation. In a previous life, Gilles was an Egyptian priestess who had a child with Tutankhamun.

[Rory Scovel]

Okay.

[Josh Dean]

And that child was reincarnated in who?

[Rory Scovel]

Oh, my God, Sofia.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah, obviously.

[Rory Scovel]

I mean, you can tell there's a familial connection.

[Josh Dean]

I mean. Yeah, she always.

[Rory Scovel]

Through Tootin commenter. Love that someone says that to you and you don't go, what? Instead you go, huh? Oh. Oh, neat. I haven't got to that part of our scrapbook yet.

[Josh Dean]

I mean, really swinging for the fences with this reincarnated, like, could have used, like, you know, an old French guy. Nope.

[Rory Scovel]

You know that these two con artists were just talking, like, do we throw the Tutankhamun at him? I think he'd go for it. Let's just see.

[Josh Dean]

So, like, basically at this point, he's convinced that he's cosmically entwined with this woman. She's the reincarnated form of his former daughter that he'd had as a woman with Tootin Common. Right. So, I mean, naturally, he's all in. Can you see where this is going?

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah, I can see where it's going. And I know that the word embezzlement is involved.

[Josh Dean]

So Gilles starts paying for things. Her birthday parties and vacations. He hires a personal driver to take her kids to school. He gave her relatives cushy jobs at town hall. He funded her passion project, which was naturally a comic book.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Titled Sophia From Darkness to Light.

[Rory Scovel]

Yep.

[Josh Dean]

The mayor even helped plan and paid for her lavish third wedding in a castle part of Chateau, and then walked her down the aisle.

[Rory Scovel]

Yes.

[Josh Dean]

Unclear if Papa was in attendance. It's also not 100% clear at first where the mayor was getting all this money. He's just a humble civil servant.

[Rory Scovel]

Yep. You starting to see, it's, you know, you look at someone like Sophia like this as being A criminal. And yet at the same time, you're like, what's. What's the criminal activity?

[Josh Dean]

Right. Has she committed a crime?

[Rory Scovel]

So far, wildly innocent and wildly respectable. I like what I'm hearing.

[Josh Dean]

All right, good, good. But people start to suspect that Gilles may be raiding the town's coffers.

[Evan Ratliff]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

For example, Papa told the mayor that Sophia needed a new veranda to better serve her clients. So Gilles hires a contractor to redo the veranda, but the contractor is a little bit nervous because he finds out that the city is actually paying for it. So according to that contractor, Gilles says they would fudge an invoice and borrow the money from the city's sports club budget.

[Rory Scovel]

Problem solved. I mean, look, this is why he's a five time champion. Really.

[Josh Dean]

I mean, I got to imagine, on some level, embezzlement is happening at every. You know, I mean, maybe you're not paying off the medium. Who's the reincarnated form of your daughter with toot in common? Yeah, but like, you know, you're giving someone a job or moving somebody's resume to the top, that's not embezzlement. Okay. That's corruption. I guess corruption is what I'm saying. Yeah. For me to believe that not every government official corrupt on some level. This is how skeptical I've become.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

So anyway, this kind of creative accounting goes on for three years. Oh, Gilles not making the French cop seem super sharp.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

You know, we're not here to judge them. Yeah, but not everyone was as entranced as Gilles. And In October of 2023, the mayor's ex wife, you know, we haven't talked about her at all. But there's Geraldine, his ex wife. She's had enough. She called the cops. She alleged that Sophia has bewitched her ex husband. Shocker. She also suspected he was stealing money from the city to fund the relationship. Yep. Police. I think they call them gendarmes there, Lane. Gendarmes.

[Lane Rose]

It's just Le Police.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah, Le Police sounds better than John's Arms.

[Josh Dean]

Is that how easy French is? You just. It's just le. Le. Okay.

[Rory Scovel]

Le Police. Somebody called La Police. Le Police. I love that. His ex wife's name is Geraldine. That means that at some point when they were together, people called them Jer. Gilles and Jer. Gill and Jerry. Hey, it's Gillinger. The boss of Le Police is in the house.

[Josh Dean]

You sound like you were doing, like, a morning radio show hosted by two French people.

[Rory Scovel]

You're listening to Le Radio.

[Josh Dean]

Gilles. I'm Gilles.

[Rory Scovel]

I'm Gilles. And this is Jer. In the morning.

[Josh Dean]

I was about to say that in French, but I don't know how to say in the morning.

[Rory Scovel]

Neither do I. I could. Honestly, I could have riffed for 10 more minutes on that if I knew an ounce of French.

[Josh Dean]

Well, I'm going to go back to French. Le police wiretapped Gilles phone and pulled phone records for the past year.

[Danny Shapiro]

Wow.

[Josh Dean]

They counted a jaw dropping. 3375 telephone conversations between Gilles de Tour and Sophia Martinez in one year. Yep. Lane, can you do math on that? How many calls per day?

[Lane Rose]

It's 10 per day. @.

[Josh Dean]

Least. At.

[Rory Scovel]

Least. I mean, I. I don't think.

[Josh Dean]

I've. I. I.

[Rory Scovel]

Don'T. I don't think I've done that many phone calls in 10.

[Josh Dean]

Years. I'm sure I.

[Rory Scovel]

Haven'T. I.

[Lane Rose]

Haven'T. I don't. I'd also want to just point out that this is all, like, at the town hall. This is like during working.

[Josh Dean]

Hours. Oh, my.

[Rory Scovel]

God. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Yes. So, like, is the town just falling apart? Like, who's picking up the trash? Like, the bill's getting paid.

[Rory Scovel]

Like. Well, the good thing is no one can tell because the nudity distracts anyone from. And also they've got their own battles to fight. You know, who's allowed to have sex and who.

[Josh Dean]

Isn'T. Well, you got people burning down swinger.

[Rory Scovel]

Clubs. Exactly. Gilles is hidden by the atrocities of this town. No one.

[Josh Dean]

Notices. So the cops also, when they got these calls, they heard what Gilles couldn't. That the voice of Papa wasn't a spirit from the great beyond or even an accomplice. Who was doing the voice?

[Rory Scovel]

Rory? Was it.

[Josh Dean]

Her? It was. It.

[Rory Scovel]

Was. She's that.

[Josh Dean]

Good?

[Rory Scovel]

Apparently. Ugh, that's amazing. She was so good at throwing her voice that he thought, not only is this a man, but this is my.

[Josh Dean]

Father. Right. I mean, a lot of questions about Gilles, but maybe she's just, like, truly that.

[Rory Scovel]

Talented. Yeah, she's got a. She's got a talent. And I'm not gonna lie, she knows how to. She knows what she's doing. She knows how to use.

[Josh Dean]

It. She applied it well. So both she and Gilles are brought into the police station for questioning and she immediately comes clean to cops. She had invented the silly voice, but when she was just a kid, a petite enfant, as they say, she had a rough childhood and Papa was an imaginary friend who was always there for her. Did you ever have an imaginary friend as a.

[Rory Scovel]

Kid? I think I did. But, like, it Lived inside me like the kid from the.

[Josh Dean]

Shining. That's dark. I had three. I had three of.

[Rory Scovel]

Them. You had.

[Josh Dean]

Three? Yeah, Ronnie, Princess, and OJ.

[Rory Scovel]

System. OJ.

[Josh Dean]

System? Yeah, it was a more innocent time. So we did not know things that we knew about OJ later. But, yeah, apparently, according to my mom, I called him OJ System. And I would, like, make the family stop the car and pick them up.

[Rory Scovel]

Often. Like.

[Josh Dean]

Okay. They would just be like. I guess we'd just drive by and see them on the road and be like, we got to pick them.

[Rory Scovel]

Up. You know, these interviews before two people decide to work together. Gotta get more specific. Like, we gotta know this going in. I.

[Josh Dean]

Can'T. I meant to bring.

[Rory Scovel]

Them. I love your parents rolling their eyes, like, well, I guess we have to go out of our way to go pick up a non existent piece of.

[Josh Dean]

Air. Anyway, so Sofia's great at this. You know, she's bringing this imaginary friend who she claims she had named Papa as a. And then she just incorporated it into her practice. And people reacted. They responded well to it. So it just became part of her.

[Rory Scovel]

Thing. Yeah, I think that's a great. I honestly think it's great. She's just passing the ball around. She's helping friends get jobs is all she's.

[Josh Dean]

Doing. I'm bringing Rani and Princess to the next.

[Rory Scovel]

Taping. That does feel like.

[Josh Dean]

Nepotism. So, for the record, she stands by her psychic abilities and powers, though she does own up to tricking Lemaire. She admitted that she, quote, couldn't stand seeing all that money around. She also grew addicted to the attention. The more I had, the more I asked for. She claimed that she even knew she was being wiretapped at the end, but she couldn't stop talking in that voice. The power of Papa was too.

[Rory Scovel]

Much. I love that she knew she was getting wiretapped. And she was just like, we, We. Nothing stops this train. We keep.

[Josh Dean]

Going. It is what she said. Direct quote. I've entered a role playing game and I can't get out. Like someone who drinks and can't.

[Rory Scovel]

Stop. I still. I. I want it noted. I still don't think she's done anything.

[Josh Dean]

Wrong. Yeah, I mean, right? Because it's not like. Well, I guess we don't know. Even if she were to order him to embezzle money, like, she is that committed. Like, if I. If I today, right now, say, rory, I demand that you go and rob a bank. Like, if you go and rob a bank, I don't think I can be arrested for That I.

[Rory Scovel]

Agree. That's what I mean. I think that her power of persuasion, that's on him to be so gullible, to fall for.

[Josh Dean]

It. Yeah. I mean, and he's, like, so dumbstruck that he doesn't even believe the cops until they played him a tape of her demonstrating the voice, which is like a really sad scene in a.

[Rory Scovel]

Movie in front of other adults, having to, like, sit there and be like, oh, okay. Yeah, no, I see. I see what you mean by she's the one doing both of them. Okay, got it, got it. You know, do you think at any point he tried to play the card? Guys, I've been investigating this for three years. It was a stupid. Obviously, I know that it's.

[Josh Dean]

Fake. I set her.

[Rory Scovel]

Up. Yeah. This is a.

[Josh Dean]

Setup. I'm the genius here. Yeah, obviously, Pop. Come.

[Rory Scovel]

On. What? A lot of people can't believe he still won a sixth year that.

[Josh Dean]

Good. Oh, well, he's like. You can imagine. He's devastated, betrayed, even embarrassed. He's charged with. Oh, gosh, I have these in French, so bear with me. Prise illegal d'. Entre. No idea what that is. Detournement de fond public. I'm guessing that's embezzlement and corruption. Corruption.

[Rory Scovel]

Corruption. Le corruption, le.

[Josh Dean]

Corruption. He spends three months in pretrial detention, resigned from his position as mayor. So no, sixth term. And in a public statement, apologized for any wrongdoing. But he made sure to qualify that he was, quote, first and foremost, a victim. I think we take some issue with.

[Rory Scovel]

That. I mean, I. Look, I just see the good in people. I believe him, too. I think they should have.

[Josh Dean]

This.

[Rory Scovel]

Should. This of all should have been just allowed to.

[Josh Dean]

Happen. Well, Sophia gets charged with embezzlement and tax fraud, and she also served three months in prison before her trial. I don't know. This doesn't seem right. France, we got to talk about your. I feel like you're. Are we not innocent until proven guilty over.

[Rory Scovel]

There? No. I don't know if you noticed, but nobody's really doing that.

[Josh Dean]

Anymore.

[Rory Scovel]

No. Nope. Guilty. No matter what. Even if you just think they're guilty, they're guilty. You just say guilty, and so everyone goes, you got.

[Josh Dean]

It. Look.

[Rory Scovel]

Guilty. Look.

[Josh Dean]

Guilty. And some of it she spends in solitary confinement because the other inmates think she's a.

[Rory Scovel]

Witch. Yeah, I get it.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. I mean, she might be a.

[Rory Scovel]

Witch. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that the others get to decide that, but, you know, I like that. France is like, look, we're going to vote on.

[Josh Dean]

Everything. Put the witch in.

[Rory Scovel]

Solit. Okay, clap if you think she's a witch and it freaks you.

[Josh Dean]

Out. She's ultimately released under judicial supervision, but was banned from practicing as a psychic, which I'm not totally sure how you.

[Rory Scovel]

Enforce.

[Josh Dean]

Right. Like tinfoil hat. Like, what do you do? How do you stop someone from being a.

[Rory Scovel]

Psychic? I don't know. How do you even get that business.

[Josh Dean]

License? Like, is that a.

[Rory Scovel]

Licensed. And people are like, all right, look, go ahead and tell people. You can talk to the beyond, but it's.

[Josh Dean]

7%. As for the city of agda, they've got a new mayor, an uncertain future, and some promising developments on the nudist front. I wasn't going to leave you hanging here, so to.

[Rory Scovel]

Speak.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. You know what I'm.

[Rory Scovel]

Saying. I know what you did right there. I got.

[Josh Dean]

It. I'm thrilled to report that there's been progress, a truce between the swingers and naturists. And what led to this detente? Any.

[Rory Scovel]

Theories? Well, here's what. This is not going to be correct, but I'd like to believe that the naturists finally realized that sexual deviance is considered somewhat natural. And I hope that they came to terms with.

[Josh Dean]

That. Also, maybe this is a controversial opinion that they realized that one of the fun things about being naked is having sex with other people. Right.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah.

[Josh Dean]

Yes. And so you're wrong, of.

[Rory Scovel]

Course.

[Josh Dean]

Okay. Although you're right. I mean, I feel like that was a good answer, but the real answer is COVID.

[Rory Scovel]

19. Oh, it's always.

[Josh Dean]

Covid. Perhaps not surprisingly, AGDA was hit very hard by the coronavirus. At one point early in the pandemic, Officials found that 30% of naturists tested positive, which was four times higher than any other city in the surrounding area, which would seem to indicate they were getting a little close, if you know what I'm saying.

[Rory Scovel]

Right. But also, when they say four times higher than the other towns, it's like, because it's summertime and all the other towns are in this.

[Josh Dean]

Town. I hadn't thought about.

[Rory Scovel]

That. They're going from 30,000 people to 300,000 people. Like. Yeah, that's every town that's in a certain.

[Josh Dean]

Radius. So I guess the lesson is the naked people learn to wear masks, if not.

[Rory Scovel]

Pants.

[Josh Dean]

Yeah. And thus concludes the story of Gilles and agda. Do you think you're better at embezzlement now? Could you come up with a scheme this.

[Rory Scovel]

Good? I mean, this is an incredible scheme, I gotta say. Here's where my hat. My hat is tipped because the confidence to even try to pull off this scheme is incredible. It's truly, like, remarkable to. I mean, imagine the time that he gets on the phone to hear his papa, and you gotta be thinking the whole time, there's no way this will work. And then, boom, he goes for it. Like that just takes sheer confidence. I'm. I'm wildly impressed. I don't know that I could think of something on this level because I would cave instantly and I'd have to tell them the.

[Josh Dean]

Truth. You don't think you could make it through 3,375.

[Rory Scovel]

Calls? I also, also, yes, great point. I wouldn't be able to pull this off because I'd be like, dude, look, I'm. I'm stealing from you, okay? I can't talk to you all the time. I'm getting this veranda built and it's loud out.

[Josh Dean]

Here. After the break, our final segment. All right, this is going to be fun because I have no idea what's going to.

[Rory Scovel]

Happen. Okay? And isn't that.

[Lane Rose]

Life? C' est la vie. You.

[Rory Scovel]

Know? Exactly. La. C' est la vie.

[Josh Whalen]

Foreign. If you're paying more than $1 a month for any ED or hair medication, listen up at Joy and Blokes, when you start TRT or enclomiphene, you can add any ED or hair loss prescription for just $1 a month. $1 add ons with your hormone plan. And right now, all labs are 50% off. I'm Josh Whalen, founder of Joy and Blokes. I built this company because men are tired of paying for fragmented care without results. Every Joy and Blokes lab includes a visit with a licensed clinician who connects your symptoms to your biomarkers. You'll get a real plan that covers hormones, performance and confidence. If you're considering TRT or Enclomiphene, this is the most efficient way to do it. Get [e-mail] and use the promo code. Podcast new customers get 50 off their labs. And for a limited time, you can take advantage of our $1 ed or hair add ons when you start TRT or enclomiphene. Not available in all states. Compounded medications are not FDA approved. Learn more at joyandblooks.com hi.

[Evan Ratliff]

Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link.

[Josh Dean]

Thanks. Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the.

[Evan Ratliff]

Link. But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam.

[Josh Dean]

Altman. There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company which would have been like unimaginable without AI. And now will.

[Evan Ratliff]

Happen. I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake.

[Josh Dean]

People. Oh, hey.

[Lane Rose]

Evan. Good to have you join.

[Josh Dean]

Us. I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents and small to medium.

[Evan Ratliff]

Businesses. Listen to Shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your.

[Matt Graves]

Podcasts. Hey listeners, this is Matt Graves, host of le Monstre Season 2, the Butcher of Mals. In the mid-90s, in the city of Mals in Belgium, women began to go missing, one after the other. Despite a sprawling investigation, including assistance from the American FBI, the murders have never been.

[Josh Dean]

Solved. These are now confirming that the body cut into pieces and stuffed into two.

[Matt Graves]

Plastic. Three decades later, we've unearthed new evidence, new witnesses and new suspects. I'm excited to share the Butcher of Moss with you and want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes 100% ad free with an iHeart True Crime plus subscription available exclusively on Apple Podcasts plus you'll get access to all episodes of the Monster franchise bingeable ad free and with exclusive bonus episodes available only to iheartrucrime plus subscribers. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts, search for iheart True Crime.

[Danny Shapiro]

Plus. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast Family.

[Rory Scovel]

Secrets. We were in the car like a rolling stone came on and he said there's a line in there about your mother. And I said, what? What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't.

[Lane Rose]

Have. I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had.

[Danny Shapiro]

Happened. These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming 13th season of Family Secrets. Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us. I'll dive deep into the incredible Power of secrets. The ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are. Listen to Family secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your.

[Josh Dean]

Podcasts. Welcome back to Crimlyss. It's everybody's favorite part of the show. The final segment. Lane, what is our final segment this.

[Lane Rose]

Week? Today, we are going to do a tarot card reading. And the fun thing about this is I've never done it before, and I would guess that maybe you and Rory also.

[Josh Dean]

Haven'T.

[Rory Scovel]

Never. I have done.

[Lane Rose]

It. You.

[Rory Scovel]

Have. I have done a tarot card reading. I won't have any sort of, like, ability to judge your version of it because I'm not that invested in a tarot card reading. But my wife is a practicing self titled witch. My wife has done many tarot card readings, and so she's also offered to do them to me. And they're.

[Josh Dean]

Fascinating. I love it. I feel like when we talked about the witch earlier, you didn't mention this. Your wife is a witch.

[Rory Scovel]

Also. I didn't want to say anything. Not in this political climate. You have no idea. You don't know what it's like right.

[Lane Rose]

Now. Be a real, real witch.

[Rory Scovel]

Hunt. It's a real. And it's because. We're getting there, Lane. We're getting.

[Lane Rose]

There. Little on the nose. Well, so you might be better at this than. Than we assume. So what I was thinking was we'll pull some cards via this website I.

[Josh Dean]

Found.

[Lane Rose]

Okay. And Rory, feel free to jump in, but people turn to tarot cards for, like, guidance advice. They're. They're looking to get some answers about questions in their lives. Could be big, could be small. Rory, what kind of questions does your wife normally answer or look for guidance.

[Rory Scovel]

On? I don't know. I don't fully know. I know that when I've done it, and granted, look, I've done it maybe twice, and it was a while ago, but I've realized you can't just. Out loud, before the tarot card reading, just go, will I ever have a threesome? And see if that's gonna. You know what I mean? And especially if your wife is pulling the.

[Lane Rose]

Cards. She's like, no, the cards are definitely.

[Rory Scovel]

Not. Oh, I just got an X. It just said it's just a. So that was your.

[Josh Dean]

Card. We should ask it deeper questions, I think.

[Lane Rose]

Right? Yeah. Or like, I don't.

[Rory Scovel]

Know. Oh, I'm sorry, Josh. Is the. Am I gonna have a threesome Not a deep question for.

[Lane Rose]

You. Yeah. So we'll we'll pull three cards. So, Rory, what's. What's your.

[Rory Scovel]

Question? Will I find. Will I find great fortune in my future? I don't know. Is that something? Is that a.

[Josh Dean]

Question? Yeah, that's a good.

[Rory Scovel]

One. I'll take bottom right, and then I'll take the sixth row, left side, and then I'll take the sixth row, far right.

[Lane Rose]

Side.

[Rory Scovel]

Whoa. I got the four of pentacles, the nine of wands, and the five of swords. I hope to God someone is listening at and just spit their coffee out because they know what these things.

[Josh Dean]

Mean. I didn't know how much tarot was like Dungeons and Dragons.

[Lane Rose]

Yeah, does that make it.

[Rory Scovel]

Cooler? I'm not going to lie. That could be a successful bumper.

[Josh Dean]

Sticker. That's our.

[Rory Scovel]

Merch. Our merch. I didn't know how much tarot was going to be like Dungeons and Dragons. And then it just says Josh, to quote you. To give you credit of the quote.

[Josh Dean]

Josh, put it on a T shirt. Sorry, I didn't mean to. I don't mean to make light of this. Very.

[Rory Scovel]

Serious. So what. What does this mean, Lane? What does four of pentacles mean for.

[Lane Rose]

Me? So pentacles are more focused on earthly desires and matters of the earth here and now, representing what's around you. So I guess maybe if you're looking for, like, riches.

[Rory Scovel]

Let's. Or the threesome thing from the tarot.

[Lane Rose]

Reading. Yeah. Look to your left. Look to your right. Who's.

[Rory Scovel]

There? You know, there's no. A painting. My dog. So this is not working out well at.

[Lane Rose]

All. We. We can consider that the past. So, like, that's what you tried before. So the present.

[Rory Scovel]

Maybe. All right, the present. Nine of.

[Lane Rose]

Wands. Nine of wands. Wands are symbolic of proactivity and action and attributed to fire. It's very passionate suit.

[Rory Scovel]

Okay. Oh, hello.

[Lane Rose]

Okay. A lot of determination happening. A lot of drive. So you're motivated for this.

[Rory Scovel]

Fortune. I'm not gonna lie. I feel that. I feel that career wise. I feel that personal. Personal growth wise. So this is what happens. You're able to relate to these things, and you can decide if it's all us just convincing ourselves or not. But that is relevant to my current.

[Lane Rose]

State. So we're looking forward to the future. Swords. We got. We got a five. Five of swords. I'm.

[Rory Scovel]

Gonna. I die, don't I. I end up dying. Lane, just tell me. In the future, do I end up.

[Lane Rose]

Dying? I don't want to answer that for you. That's your own personal.

[Rory Scovel]

Journey. That's your interpretation of.

[Lane Rose]

Reality. That's your.

[Josh Dean]

Thing. I am. We all have our own.

[Lane Rose]

Yeah. So the five of swords often signifies conflict, betrayal in a situation where someone wins at any.

[Rory Scovel]

Cost. Oh, no. Oh, God. It started out, man, my present is so good. And then it's like, but. But then you're gonna fight everybody and be.

[Lane Rose]

Betrayed. I think it could also be like you're in your head about it. So maybe you're thinking, like, you're projecting these. These feelings of competition and. And you know, your enemy is actually not your enemy. Perhaps it's your.

[Rory Scovel]

Friend. Oh, okay. Okay. Lane, you're, like, really good at this. Wow. Google or not, you've got great.

[Danny Shapiro]

Delivery.

[Lane Rose]

Thanks, Roy. Do you feel like you got the.

[Rory Scovel]

Answers? I feel like I'm walking away with what I got. The other times is that if you're willing to connect dots, they will connect. And if you're unwilling and you don't want them to connect, then it can feel ridiculous. But I will say, enough people subscribe to tarot readings in this form of thing that I just look at and I go, ah, who knows? Who even. Why can't this be a valid form of getting through life and trying to figure out the puzzle that is our reality? So I believe it only because the middle part was really good for.

[Lane Rose]

Me.

[Rory Scovel]

Yeah. The future, the sword thing, I don't. I don't adhere to that at.

[Josh Dean]

All. I believe that tarot is the friends we made along the.

[Rory Scovel]

Way. There you.

[Josh Dean]

Go. Josh. Crimlyss is a production of Smartless Media, Campside Media, and Big Money Players in partnership with iHeart podcasts. It's hosted by Rory Scoville and me, Josh Dean. Our senior producer is Lane Rose. Emma Siminoff is our associate producer. This episode was written by Lane Rose and me, Josh Dean. We're sound, designed and engineered by Blake Rook with support from Ewan Leitramuin. Mark McAdam composed our theme song. The executive producers at Campside Media are Vanessa Gregoriadas, Matt Sher, and me, Josh Dean. The executive producers for iHeart podcasts and Big Money Players are Jack O', Brien, Lindsey Hoffman, and Matt Apodaca. For Smartless Media, the executive producers are Will Arnett, Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes and Richard Corson. Bernie Kaminski is head of production. The associate producer is Matty McCann. A special thanks to our operations team, Ashley Warren and Sabina Mara. Do you have a question, comment, or confession for the Crimeless team? Email [e-mail] and if you enjoyed Crimeless Please rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts. It helps people find the show and also makes us feel validated. Unless you're mean, in which case keep it to yourself. We'll see you next week. Crimeless Nation. This is an iHeart.

[Rory Scovel]

Podcast. Guaranteed.