Prof Responds: Present Characters, but Not Known Ones

Summary

Critical Magic Theory: An Analytical Harry Potter Podcast

Episode: Prof Responds: Present Characters, but Not Known Ones

Host: Prof. Julian Womble
Date: March 11, 2026

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Overview

In this reflective “Prof Responds” episode, Professor Julian Womble continues a candid and insightful conversation sparked by the previous "Color of Magic" installment. He responds to community comments and messages about race, character presence, erasure, and the nuanced ways identity plays out in the Harry Potter universe. Emphasizing the importance of critical engagement with beloved media, Prof. Womble explores why some characters feel present but never truly known, the societal mechanisms that inform this dynamic, and the value of discomfort and imperfection in these discussions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Importance of Critique within Fandom

• (01:36-04:41) Prof. Womble opens by addressing nerves he felt about the previous episode’s deep dive into race and magic, noting that meaningful conversations—even difficult ones—matter.

• Emphasizes the goal of using Harry Potter as a vehicle for conversations about identity, not just escapism.

• Quote:

  "Loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it."
  (01:36)

• Advocates for discomfort as an inherent, necessary part of learning, both for himself and the listeners:

  “Some of them may make all of us feel a little bit uncomfortable. That is also okay. That's the point. That's the goal.”
  (03:58)

• Acknowledges the privilege embedded in escapism, arguing that engaging with problematic aspects of fandom is part of leveraging that privilege for social good.

---

2. Navigating Race—The Invitation to Speak, Even When Unsure

• (09:37-22:43) Addresses community hesitance about commenting on race—particularly from non-Black or non-minoritized listeners.

• Unpacks how silence around race is often mistakenly perceived as respectful, when it can perpetuate harmful structures.

• Quote:

  “In most cases, most, not all, most silence is not neutral. Part of what makes the silence feel safe, feel correct even, is how we've been taught to understand the idea of racism itself…”
  (10:16)

• Uses Harry Potter examples to illustrate how “loud” (overt) and “quiet” (structural) forms of supremacy operate:

  • Overt: Bellatrix or Draco using slurs
  • Structural: Who is granted backstories, allowed complexity, or remains "just present," especially Black characters

• Quote:

  “Pure blood supremacy lives in the walls and the architecture of the magical world. And in that same way, racism lives in the very foundations of our global society. It lives in who gets a backstory and who doesn't. It lives in which characters get to be complicated and flawed and fully human and which ones have to be perfect just to be present.”
  (12:06)

• Relates personal example as a cisgender man speaking about misogyny:

  “If I don't build that literacy, then when I'm in a room, when someone says something that diminishes or demeans women, I don't have the tools to respond. I might not even see it. Like, I have to know better in order to do better.”
  (15:44)

• Concludes this section with an invitation:

  "You don't have to have experienced something to learn about it, to understand it, to be able to name it when you see it ... The invitation is open. And we are all not gonna get this right. It is impossible ... That's part of the learning process."
  (17:39–18:59)

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3. Advice on Engaging and Learning

• (22:43-24:51) Distinguishes genuine inquiry from expecting marginalized groups to shoulder the burden of education:

  “The goal is never to place the burden of that help or that learning or that teaching on that minoritized group. I tell people all the time, Google is free. Books exist.”
  (23:00)

• Emphasizes listening as a crucial skill—sometimes the best way to learn is simply to “listen and not say anything” when others are sharing their experiences.

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4. Whiteness as Default in Harry Potter

• (25:56-41:11) Responding to post-episode chat, Prof. Womble unpacks how the books treat whiteness as an unstated standard.

• Notes that outside Voldemort’s “chalk white” face, no character is racially described as white; only Black and Asian characters receive racial/ethnic identifiers.

• Community member Vivian notes:

  “As an adult reading this book series back, I've thought a lot about how characters are never implicitly named for their race unless they're black ... [JKR] implies an unspoken ‘Please clap for me’ when she includes characters of any race other than white.”
  (26:49)

• Discusses the difference between written and visual (film) representations—films add ethnic cues (clothing) absent in text, but do not provide deeper backstory or personality for characters of color.

• Highlights societal conditioning:

  “What’s so fascinating about this notion of whiteness as a default is because many of us live in societies where it is simply true ... and so we don’t ask too many questions when we see it because it’s like, well, yes, of course, that's the world that we live in."
  (34:44)

• Discusses backlash around diversifying character casting in adaptations, and the zero-sum mindset often present in white readers/viewers:

  “There is a reading that I have my students do ... that talks about how racism in the minds of many white people is seen as a zero sum game, which is to say that if there's anything that has been given to a community of color, it feels like white people have lost something.”
  (37:50)

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5. The Perfection Trap: Why Must Black Characters Be Flawless?

• (41:11-52:32) Community comments highlight the pressure for Black characters (e.g., Kingsley Shacklebolt) to be exceptional and above reproach.

• Quote (from listener Finty, read aloud):

  “Your point about Kingsley being perfect struck me. Why does he need to be perfect? Can't he have a few flaws or quirks like Angelina?”
  (41:34)

• Prof. Womble connects this to media-wide trends—Black or minoritized characters are often either stereotyped negatively or made impossibly flawless; both are forms of dehumanization.

• Memorable Moment:
  Discusses the “perfect Black friend” trope and contrasts it with how "messiness" is crucial for authentic representation:

  “We're meant to read that and be like, this is such a good portrayal, and it's like, but this is not human, right? ... We want humanity, we want messiness, we want errors, we want, like all of that.”
  (44:48)

• Argues for more complex, humanized portrayals, and notes how even when mistakes do exist (e.g., Kingsley not talking about magical creatures), these are viewer insights, not granted by the text.

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6. Presence vs. Knowing: The Problem of Erasure

• (52:32-63:03) Tackles the issue of characters being “present but not known”—especially Dean Thomas, Lee Jordan, Angelina Johnson, and the Patil twins.

• Shares community disappointment at the lack of backstories for these recurring, central characters, noting the arbitrary shifts in narrative focus (e.g., Neville’s arc supplanting Dean’s).

• Quote (from listener Jazz, read aloud):

  “It's such a great point that we know more about the backgrounds of some of the side white characters like Justin than we ever learn about more prominent black characters like Lee and Angelina. I was so disappointed when I found out that Dean's backstory got cut from the books in favor of building Neville's character arc. Why can't we have both?”
  (52:45)

• Prof. Womble highlights how the books readily provide mundane details about side white characters (e.g., Lavender Brown’s rabbit, Seamus’s family), while the Black and Asian characters remain surface-level:

  “We spend so much time with Dean ... he lives with Harry in that dorm for six years. Why don't we know more about him? Why is it that we only get a singular moment with him explaining why he's on the run, and then the reason why is, like, the most stereotypical stereotype of the stereotypes that were stereotypical when they were stereotyped."
  (54:00)

• Critiques the idea that diversity is achieved simply by adding nonwhite characters without investing in their stories or interiority.

  “Sometimes, again, it's like the presence of these characters of color is all many people think is necessary to be seen and to project the idea of inclusion. And I don't think that JKR is the only one for whom this is true...
  (57:44)

• Concludes this segment with a call for active participation, not just token presence:

  “Your presence is not your present. You have to participate. And I want that for these characters.”
  (60:32)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On critical engagement:

  “We're not going to shy away from the realities of the situations that we are living in as a global society or the privileges that we have when we just want to kind of retreat.”
  (04:27)

• On silence and complicity:

  “If we decide that the only people who have been harmed by a system get to speak about that system, then we have handed the system a gift.”
  (15:03)

• On media defaults:

  “Writers of color write about white people all the time sans problem, right? Like, there is a way that it can be done. It is not easy, but it is not impossible.”
  (39:23)

• On bar-setting for representation:

  “When the bar is in hell, it's easy to clear.”
  (49:57)

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Community Engagement and Next Steps

• Prof. Womble encourages continued audience participation (especially in the upcoming Cho Chang survey and next episode).
• Emphasizes that all listeners are invited to the discussion, and that making mistakes is part of community learning.
• Provides contact info and social media handles for further conversation and feedback.

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Key Timestamps

• 01:36 – Prof. Womble’s intro and nervousness about the previous episode's resonance.
• 09:37 – Addressing community hesitance to speak on race.
• 12:06 – “Racism lives in the very foundations…”: On structural inequality in HP and society.
• 17:39 – The invitation to non-minoritized listeners: “You don't have to have experienced something…”
• 25:56 – Discussion of “whiteness as default” and its impact on representation.
• 41:11 – The perfection trap: Why Black characters are denied flaws.
• 52:32 – Erasure vs. presence: The frustration of surface-level characterization.
• 60:32 – “Presence is not your present.”: Call for active, narrative participation for minoritized characters.

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Conclusion

This episode expands the Critical Magic Theory community’s ongoing work: interrogating the structures behind our favorite stories, acknowledging discomfort and imperfection as intrinsic to social progress, and refusing to settle for surface-level “progressive” gestures. Prof. Womble models vulnerability, humor, scholarship, and an unwavering commitment to a more inclusive fandom—reminding listeners that “being critical and staying magical” go hand in hand.

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Transcript

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[Professor Julian Womble]

Welcome to Critical Magic Theory where we deconstruct the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. Because loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it. I'm Professor Julian Womble. Did you know that? And today, today we are going to be doing a Prof. Response episode on our Color of Magic episode. Now here's the thing y'. All. I wasn't sure about this. I. I wasn't sure about posting that episode. I was a little nervous cause I was like, oh, I don't know, this may be a little bit too in the weeds for people. It kind of breaks the theme that we tend to go with in terms of our character analyses and deep dives. I was nervous, okay? I was concerned about the fact that some of us may not actually like the episode. And then some chronic overthinkers were like, no, but actually this is the kind of stuff that we do enjoy. And I said, julian, you've been being so silly. What a silly goose you've been. Okay, this is the kind of the point. This is the goal. And I don't mean that to say like, oh, this is gonna. We're pivoting. No, we're not pivoting. We're going back to our character analyses. This actually gave us a little bit more time on the Cho Chang of it all, because if you have not filled out your cho Chang survey, it is still available for you. And I've given you two extra weeks. I'll hear no complaints. It's available for you on the Patreon patreon.com criticalmagictheory. You can find it on the WE website criticalmagictheory.com and I'll also be posting some of the hotter takes on my social media. ROFW on TikTok and ROF JW on Instagram. So don't forget to do that. But back to what I was talking about. I was nervous. I studied race for a living. And the whole point of the my Harry Potter class, which spawned all of these different iterations of these kinds of conversations, was to use Harry Potter as a means by which to figure out how to talk about identity. And I think in doing so, I also used Harry Potter as a shield to do it in a way that, like, felt palatable and digestible. And doing that episode kind of made me be like, ooh, is this a little bit too much? Are we going too far? But given the state of the world and the things that are going on, I think that sometimes being serious for a second and having meaningful conversations in this domain is really important. And it was a reminder to myself that one, we are all capable of having these conversations in a way that is respectful and also that we are all on a journey of learning and that that matters as well. And I was really, really heartened to get DMs and post in the post episode chat and emails from people saying that, you know, that episode really helped them think about things in a different way, which is the whole point of Critical Magic theory. And so we will continue to have these kinds of conversations and some of them may be a little bit more explicit than they have been in the past. And that's okay. And some of them may make all of us feel a little bit uncomfortable. That is also okay. That's the point. That's the goal. I know that some people have said to me in the past that they don't love it when we get too political. Sorry. Not sorry. I think I know for sure because as I said before, given the state of the world and also what the goal structure of this project podcast situation is, sometimes we gotta go there. And so that doesn't mean that we get to kind of leverage these, these moments as an escape, because that feels to me selfish when we're living in a time where people are being, people are experiencing disenfranchisement on a number of dimensions, whether it be actual kind of disenfranchisement or just the, the revocation of agency, livelihood rights. And for those of us who are privileged enough to be able to escape, because that's what escapism is, it is a privilege to be able to do that. It is my personal belief that it is incumbent upon us to leverage those moments for the purposes of betterment. And so to that end, we will continue to do what we've been doing and have a good time while we're doing it, because those things are not mutually exclusive. But we're not going to shy away from the realities of the situations that we are living in as a global society or the privileges that we have when we just want to kind of retreat. And that isn't to say that you need to listen to this podcast if you're in a headspace where like, that's not a thing that you can do in the moment. I totally, totally, totally get that. But also recognizing that like, sometimes we gotta go there. And so before we go there, you know where we have to go? A quick detour at the Bop Fun Shop. I made that up just now. You knew that. But I'm proud of it. And that doesn't change where we have to go. The Bop Fun Shop. Because when you bop, the fun don't stop. You see? And that's how we got. Anyways, it's coming in three, in two, in one. Let's Bop.

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[Professor Julian Womble]

as always, I hope you danced before we get into the post episode chat and all of the things, I want to have a little bit of a conversation with us because there were some comments that came up in the post episode chat that I want to address. They weren't bad comments. I think that they were an invitation. And so this is not meant to be accusational in any way. And I know that sounds very ominous and I promise you that it is not. So everyone calm down. I promise, I promise it's not that, but I was reading some of the comments and my like professor hat came on and I said this is a conversation that I think is important for us to have and so we are going to have it. Before we dive into the themes from the post episode chat, a few people opened their comments in the post episode chat and in my DMs and in my emails with some version of I don't really know if I can speak to this talking about race and racism and I completely understand the impulse. I truly understand it. I also think that there's room for us to think more deeply about that particular inclination because I think underneath it is something that is worth investigating. We live in a world, and I think this is by design, right, where race is not something that we are taught to talk about openly. In fact, we are discouraged from talking about it. For those of us living in the United States right now, and maybe in other places in the world, we are actively invited to not consider it in any capacity and doing so is punishable. And I think that this is especially true if you are not the person on the receiving end of racial inequality. The message, stated or not, has always been this is not your conversation. Stay in your lane, don't overstep. And I think a lot of well meaning people have internalized that so deeply that silence starts to feel like a more respectful posture. Like, who am I to weigh in on this? And again, I absolutely get that. But here's the important thing for us to remember. In most cases, most, not all, most silence is not neutral. Part of what makes the silence feel safe, feel correct even, is how we've been taught to understand the idea of racism itself. When most of us picture racism, we see something loud and obvious, ugly and grotesque. Someone screaming an epithet across the street, burning a cross, right in the world of Harry Potter, we think of a Bellatrix Lestrange cackling about blood traders or screaming at Harry that he is a filthy half blood. Or Draco Malfoy spitting the word mud blood across a corridor. Pansy Parkinson telling Angelina Johnson that her braids look like worms coming out of her head. We know that and we know for the most part how to respond to that. We point to those people and we say, those are the bad apples, they are the problem. And that, I think, is the rubber. Right? Because we are expecting then that racism looks contained, easily identified. It allows us to create a lot of distance between us and them. It creates a spectrum between the Weasleys and the Malfoys. Right? But the reality of the situation is, and why I spend so much time talking about the notion of pure blood supremacy is because what we have unpacked together throughout our journey here on Critical Magic Theory is the reality that pure blood supremacy lives in the walls and the architecture of the magical world. And in that same way, racism lives in the very foundations of our global society. It lives in who gets a backstory and who doesn't. It lives in which characters get to be complicated and flawed and fully human and which ones have to be perfect just to be present. We have five black characters of consequence across seven books. And we could tell you more about Judge Justin Finch Fletchley's time at Eton, or the prospect of him going to Eaton. Excuse me. Than we could about where Dean Thomas grew up, what his family looked like, what shaped him before he ever walked through the halls of the Great Hall. And I don't think that that's an accident. I think that that's the design, that kind of racism, the structural quiet baked into the default is so much harder to point at. It's so much harder to create distance between because we don't even see it. We don't even know it. And then when we do, some of us are like, ugh, I should have seen it. And then there's guilt and then there's shame. And then there is the kind of navigation of like, well, what am I supposed to do with all that? It's too big. I can't. I can't navigate it. We don't know where to start. And it's too big to dismantle. And so it's easier to just move back, shrink it back down and be mad at Pansy Parkinson to name that bad apple, to exhale, move on and say, we did it, Joe, I get it. I truly, honestly do. But I don't think we can stop there. And so, given that this is a podcast about Harry Potter, I thought, like, why not do a little Harry Potter moment for us, right? Because there's a moment that I talked about in the, in the last episode with Kingsley Shacklebolt, who many of you brought to bear. The fact that one, we haven't done an episode on Kingsley and like, maybe we could, I don't know, sound off in the post episode chat. Maybe we can. I don't think that there's enough, personally, which is a whole other thing. He is a pureblood. There is a lot for us to talk about there. Maybe I could just rant and rave about him, but that's also what I've been doing in these last couple of episodes and this episode will be no different. So if that doesn't satisfy you, we can have a conversation about it. But the moment with Kingsley that I talked about was when he was on the wireless Wizarding network and he called on the wizarding community to cast protective charms over Muggles. Not just wizards, non magical people who, by the logic of the very supremacist system he has been raised inside of, don't necessarily warrant that protection. And that moment means something because it's Kingsley, a pure blood person. He has access to pure blood spaces. He's part of the sacred 28, which tells us a story. Right? Because we know that the Weasleys have been left off of it. We know that other people have been left off of it by. I can't remember, is it cantankerous something or the other? I can't remember the name of the person who wrote the sacred 28. Right. But we know that he wasn't kind and that he left people off if they didn't represent what he believed they should represent. Right. And so the fact that the Shackle Bolts are on the list tells us a story about the belief structure that they must have had to be able to be allowed by this person. Right? Because inclusion led to the exclusion of these families on the list, right? And so he's there. He knows these people, and he has the cultural legibility and the credibility and the standing to be heard and understood in those spaces. And he takes everything the system has given him and he points it outward toward the people the system was not designed to protect. And then when we look at our quote, unquote, good purebloods, right, the Weasleys, and we love the Weasleys, and I talk a lot of madness about them. But, like, they are wonderful people. On average, they are trying and they see the Malfoys clearly, and they can clock pure blood supremacy when it has a pointy blonde face and a sneer. But watch what happens when Molly Weasley starts in on Muggle medicine. That casual, almost affectionate dismissal of an entire world's knowledge and practice. That is what happens when you have proximity to inequality without developing a real consciousness about it. You can name the obvious villain, but you cannot see the water you're swimming in. And the gap between proximity and consciousness. That's the real work, right? And it's so human and it's so honest, and it's the vast majority of us on some dimension at some point in our lives. So when someone says, I don't know if I can really speak to this, and again, like, I completely understand, but I want to offer this, you don't have to have experienced something to learn about it, to understand it, to be able to name it when you see it. I'm a man, a cisgendered man. I do not experience misogyny. Yet I talk about it all the time on this podcast, right? Because if I don't build that literacy, then when I'm in a room, when someone says something that diminishes or demeans women, I don't have the tools to respond. I might not even see it. Like, I have to know better in order to do better. And I think that that is work, but it is required as a person who lives in the body that I live in, with the privileges that that body offers. And I think that this extends beyond the podcast. Because if we decide that the only people who have been harmed by a system get to speak about that system, then we have handed the system a gift. If Hermione was the only one who spoke about what it was to be a Muggle born, then what happens? You know, nothing. There are spaces and rooms and conversations where people of various minoritized populations are simply not present. And in those spaces, if people who are in there have decided that this is not the conversation to have, then we won't get any change. The system keeps going uninterrupted and unchallenged, and the silence that feels respectful becomes complicit. Not because of a bad intention or a subscription to the structure itself, but because the same dynamic we see in the books, proximity without consciousness, is present and permeates the space. And that's why I spend so much time on Pure Blood Supremacy on the podcast. Not because blood status is a perfect one to one metaphor for minoritized understandings in the real world. But the structure is something that we can see so clearly in fiction that we sometimes struggle to see in our own world. And once you start to see how the structure works, who protects it, who erases it, who calls it normal, who doesn't say anything about it because it's just what it is and they get to benefit from it, you start to see the same patterns everywhere. You can't unsee it, including in the places that feel safe and familiar and good, like Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. This conversation is for everyone. All of y'. All. Me, everybody. The invitation is open. And we are all not gonna get this right. It is impossible. And I know that some of us, Ravenclaws no Shade. Want to be perfect in our execution. And I'm here to tell you that that is a fallacy. And that's okay. It's okay to not get this right. That's part of the learning process. And it's okay to qualify and say, hey, I don't know a lot about this, but here are my thoughts. What do you all think? That's fine. There's no way that we can

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[Professor Julian Womble]

and grow together if we don't engage in discourse with one another. Now, I do want to caution that there is a difference between learning and weaponizing not knowing things. The goal is never to place the burden of that help or that learning or that teaching on. On that minoritized group. I tell people all the time, Google is free. Books exist. There are people within the space that can help you that are not necessarily part of the population you're trying to learn about. And that's okay. But sometimes you have to ask the question, and there will be people there willing to help you. And that's okay as well. But if people aren't willing to help you, then sometimes you gotta go on and learn yourself, right? Like, a lot of what I've learned about being a man has come from my own interrogation. Of it my own, taking the scales off my eyes and watching the men in my orbit operate and say, huh, that's an interesting choice that you've made there, sir. It's listening to the women in my life, the femmes in my life speak and not saying anything. Not because I feel like I'm going to be wrong, but because that's how you learn. Sometimes listening is the best tool. And so if listening to this podcast and listening to me do this rant has helped you, I'm so glad. And honestly, if you don't want to comment in the post episode chat, but you want to ask questions of me, it's my job. It's what I do for a living. So email me criticalmagic theory gmail.com have you seen how I've been weaving in all of this information so seamlessly? I'm getting good at this, y'. All. Anyways, let's dive into this episode and there won't be a reflection. Because that was a reflection. So don't worry. I promise. It's fine. Everyone relax.

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[Professor Julian Womble]

The first thing that we're going to be unpacking is whiteness as a default. This is something that came up quite a bit in the post episode chat because as I said in the last episode, no one is ever described as a white person. Now I've been reading the last book and I'm on the last chapter and Voldemort Voldiva Volzatti is described as chalk white in the iteration of himself that is on the back of Quirrell's head. And I think that that might be one of the few moments where we're able to see someone described as white, but it's not racial, right? Like it's just his face. And that I think is still interesting. But it stood out to me because of this conversation that we've been having. And as I was listening, I was like, oh my God, look at that. Relevance at last. But many people had some really great comments about this. Vivian said, as an adult reading this book series back, I've thought a lot about how characters are never implicitly named for their race unless they're black. The Wizarding World, as is written by the author, is not meant to be diverse, and it implies an unspoken Please clap for me when she includes characters of any race other than white. There's something to be said about the fact that the existence of Cho the Patil Twins, the named black characters are not based on their race. But it leads me to wonder, why stop there. Why limit to five black characters and three Asian characters? In the case of J.K. rowling, she felt the need to point out when characters are black but literally not any other race. Why is it the standard that we are not pointing out whiteness and only otherness? Why is a character defaulted to white unless otherwise specified? Bear wrote Writing with color is a skill all authors, no matter their background, have to learn, as writing a story with any diversity within it means writing about at least one person who shares a background that's not your own. Writing with color explicitly holds space for decolonizing standards for writing which center white experiences, styles, vernacular emotional frameworks and mannerisms. Standards which make writing stories about white characters the default for everyone, including writers of color. And Matt said, I do think Pansy's line about Angelina's hair was meant to highlight two things. One, that pure blood supremacy is a parallel for white supremacy. Two, that Pansy is not only a pure blood supremacist, but she's also racist at the same time. It adds to the horribleness of her character. These are such good comments. Ugh. I just love our community. So I think like it is not lost on me. And I say this all the time. And I said this in the very first episode of this podcast when talking about why Harry Potter is such a good space for us to have these kinds of conversations. And I said that it's because JKR did not take any time to try and like learn. She wrote what she knew. And there is a way that when you live as a person and operate in the default, you don't even recognize what you're doing because you're not supposed to. And so it does, to Vivian's point, highlight this kind of clap for me that she even had these five characters and the other three, the five black characters and the three Asian characters. So now we've got eight characters of color that are named, and it's like, I did it. We don't need to know anything about them. And what is more. And what's so fascinating, and I literally am thinking about this right now, so come on this journey with me while my brain processes this in real time. But there's a moment in Goblet of Fire when I think it must be. Parvati is, like, has, like, a flower or something in her, in her hair. And McGonagall's like, get rid of it. Like, there is this idea. And it was all under the guise of presenting uniformity when Beauxbaton and Durmstrang came. What else is fascinating? And again, I think that this is gonna be part of our, like, next iteration of the podcast. But in the movies, if I'm not mistaken, we see that, like, the outfits that Cho Chang and both the Patil twins wear are very much informed by their ethnicity. And I want to say the same thing is true for Kingsley, right? Like, the hat, the, like, the garb is all very kind of, like, African influenced, which we get nothing of in the magical world because every. In the books, rather, because everyone is wearing cloaks. So what's fascinating about this, right, is when you juxtapose the written word to the visual, we can see that a concerted effort was made by the powers that be to highlight cultural differences. But there is something to be said, and I've been talking about this a lot online as it pertains to Bridgerton, there's something to be said about aesthetic and narrative because, like, yeah, okay, we can look with our eyes and see that Cho Chang is East Asian. We can see that the Patil twins are South Asian. We can recognize that Lee Jordan, Angelina Johnson, Blazevini, Dean Thomas, Kingsley, Shackabo are black. Like, you giving us their clothes adds no new dimension to this. Who are these people? Right? Like, there is what. What's their story? And again, we don't even need to know a lot. We know that Justin went to. Was in line to go to Eton, so he was rich. And, like, we know for random reasons that Ernie McMillan is pure blood, right? Like, there is a way that even these throwaway lines about who these people are, right? Like, of all the black characters that we have the most that we know is from Blaze. And what we know is that his mom is killing men and taking their money because she's beautiful. And it's like, well, is that really a win? Did we. Did we win with that one? And I think that what's so fascinating about this notion of whiteness as a default is because many of us live in societies where it is simply true as children, we don't ask questions, right? Like, we are not trying to figure out the details. And especially for those of us who read these, when they were written in the late 90s and the early aughts, it was the norm that we simply just didn't have these kinds of conversations. It was kind of like, yeah, whatever. Like, there are characters of color. Cool. We did it, Joe. And I think that that's kind of the point of whiteness as a default is that any kind of diversity feels like a win. It feels like success. It feels like inclusion. And it's not until we begin to unpack truly what's missing from the narratives, from the characters themselves. What. What are they adding? What are they? What do they. How do we understand them? What's their role in all of this? Because we are conditioned, no matter where you are, racially or ethnically, we are conditioned by society to recognize that whiteness is just normal. And so we don't ask too many questions when we see it because it's like, well, yes, of course, that's the world that we live in. And again, it's like, it's fascinating that Pansy makes this comment about Angelina, and it's like, oh, so now because of this, like, racist remark, I guess we know you're white because Pansy's never described as white. And I guess that comment could have been made from anyone. And I think what else is fascinating about this now is watching the casting, like, announcements come out for the TV show and watching people freak out not just about Snape, but about other characters. And again, the idea that, like, these, everyone believes that these people are white. I remember getting into a bit of a tizzy, or not a tizzy, a bit of a tussle is the word I was looking for with a woman online after I made this video about Snape, which I referenced in the last episode. And the big to do is that they're all afraid that if Snape is black when he is hung upside down by his ankles, that the marauders are all going to be coming off as, like, basically committing a hate crime. And I said to this person, I said, but that is assuming that all the marauders are white, which the text does not offer us any evidence for. And she said, they're all white. And I said, prove it. And then she didn't comment anymore. So I think that it's interesting because the idea of whiteness as a default is so ingrained and embedded in our minds that it's like, when it's challenged in any way, people are like, no, but what about me? And I'm gonna say this, and then we're gonna move on. There is a reading that I have my students do in pretty much all my classes, and it is a reading that talks about how racism in the minds of many white people is seen as a zero sum game, which is to say that if there's anything that has been given to a community of color, it feels like white people have lost something. And every time we have seen a casting announcement, whether it was black Hermione in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, black Snape in the iteration of the TV show, there has always been backlash. And there's always been people being like, no, that doesn't work. And what is fascinating about that to me is that it says to me, right? People are like, well, I can't see myself as Hermione anymore if she's not a white woman, if she doesn't look like Emma Watson. And it's like, oh. Meanwhile, readers of color have had to find themselves in default white characters left and right since writing was writing and until this most recent moment within literature, because there are a ton of studies that tell us that publishing houses would rather have characters be animals that are, like, anthropomorphic and can speak, then have them be children of color. And so the idea that, like, if they don't look like me, I can't relate to them is such a privileged belief structure, right? Because it suggests that, like, if I can't see myself, then I'm not them. And a lot of people feel that way about Hermione. And they. And it's coming back up again because a young woman who's playing her now on the TV show is not a white woman or not white. Not a white girl rather. And people are like, well, how am I supposed to know, like, who. Who Hermione is? And it's like, but you didn't even recognize her as anything other than just like, Hermione before this. And the Hermione that you know is the Hermione that, you know, she's still gonna do all the crazy stuff that she does. She needs to look like you in order for you to be able to relate to that. Like that is worth unpacking. And it just speaks to the power of whiteness as the default, the expectation, the privilege of it all and the fact that J.K. rowling lives within that space completely that she didn't even feel compelled to write that, right? And again, right To Bear's point, it's hard. It is not impossible, right? Like writers of color write about white people all the time sans problem, right? Like there is a way that it can be done. It is not easy, but it is not impossible. But when you operate from a space of like there's no need to because the world is just the world, then it becomes hard.

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[Professor Julian Womble]

The next theme that came up in the post episode chat was one that I would call the perfection trap. One of the major themes that people came at from different angles but landed on the same question is why do the black characters in these books have to be so perfect? Fenty wrote your point about Kingsley being perfect struck me. Why does he need to be perfect? Can't he have a few flaws or quirks like Angelina? I do want them. I do want want both of them to do really well and be brilliant. But and I think that there's something to this point. And then Erica highlights something else, saying Kingsley's family is even in the sacred 28. She went all in on making him perfect by the wizarding world standards. It was like he was made to be absolutely above reproach. Very interesting. I agree that Blaze is one of the most interesting characters. I really enjoy reading iterations of him in fanfic. He and his mother are often written as very regal characters and I think that that speaks to how Blayze seems above it all. He has a lot more finesse than Draco at throwing shade, but he gets his shots in with Harry and others a few times. To me, Blaze seems aware of his blackness. He's with Draco's crew, but he seems to be distant at the same time. Maybe it's because Draco's dramatic pansy is petty and Crabbe and Goyle are unintelligent. Or maybe there's more to it. It reminds me of how I am at work, which is a primarily white space. I'm there and I interact but I feel a subtle divide. This is fascinating because I do think that we only meet Blaze in book six. I mean we hear him get sorted but we really don't see him hanging out with Draco that much. And the story tells itself. But we'll get to that. I want to get to JoJo's comment. JoJo writes the black characters, I would say have names which people often associate as black British names. Jordan, Johnson and Thomas are definitely names which sound black from a black British viewpoint. And forgetting his troubling surname, Kingsley, a first name sounds very black. I don't think this is accidental, but again, maybe stereotypes. Juju goes on to say the UK treats race very differently to the US I believe, and it is. It often isn't specified. People still feel very uncomfortable describing someone as being black, so I'm not surprised it is avoided. What I would say it is very much in line with many British forms of media. During the 90s and early aughts race was never explicitly mentioned, but racial stereotypes prevailed. For example, in many popular soap operas of the time the black characters were always made to be gangster types who were into gun crime, et cetera. But I do recall the hair comment when I read Order of the Phoenix and feeling a lot of shame and anger as a 16 year old but not understanding at the time why it made me so upset. It's my turn. I forgot to do it in the last one. Sorry. I know that you all have gotten used to that Vocal. But I. There's. What. What am I supposed to do? Sometimes I forget. I think that this is so fascinating, and I think that JoJo's conversation about stereotypes being kind of an indication of things is really fascinating because I think that that is certainly not something that's confined to the uk, right? Like, there was a time in the very recent past in the U.S. where, like, any level of Law and Order, anything, which is a TV show that has many, many iterations, but for the longest time, if you were a black character on Law and Order, you were a gangbanger. It wasn't until after Covid and after a couple of really big incidents of engaging with white supremacy that we then began to see a lot of white characters being, like, villainized and being couched in terms of, like, domestic terrorism. But for the longest time, if you were any from anywhere in the Middle east, you were a terrorist. If you were black, you were a gangster. If you were anywhere Latino or Hispanic, you were like some sort of drug person. Like. And that's interesting, right, because we then see that there's no need, right, to engage in the usage of, like, explicit language. Because even if whiteness is the default within that default, other racial groups also have default settings, right? And so we then see that these default settings operate from a very stereotypical negative space, which doesn't then require us to have to do any sort of mental work to see them as. See their portrayal as being true. And on the inverse side of that, right, one of the other kind of, I guess, mediating interventions that we see kind of portrayed in popular media is the, like, perfect black friend, right? The genius who is flawless and absolutely gets everything right, and is a genius and can speak, you know, 3,000 languages and can do any everything and is not flawed at all. And there's a way in which, like, we're meant to read that and be like, this is such a good portrayal, and it's like, but this is not human, right? Like, there is a dehumanizing aspect to the portrayal of these kinds of characters where they actively and truly are so above reproach that it doesn't feel real. And there's no way that any person of life is looking at that character and saying, huh, that's me. I can relate to that person. And I think, like, what? It removes the messiness, right, To Finty's point, right? Like, why does Kingsley have to be perfect? And I think that there's a way in which some people, authors, creators, producers, writers think that by creating these perfect characters, you've subverted what JoJo talks about, right, which is this kind of more stereotypical understanding of these groups. And I think that what's important here is I think what all of us want is to see ourselves represented by humans. And if they look like us, great. But we want humanity, we want messiness, we want errors, we want, like all of that. Because I think that when you are looking at characters who are just so above reproach, it's like I, as a reader, as a consumer, as a viewer, I could never be that. And I think we're all looking for ways to find ourselves, right? Like the whole representation matters movement is that. And I think that there's a way that we miss the mark on that if we are simply looking at characters like Kingsley who have somehow figured out in a world of pure blood supremacy, that like, they are, you know, that they are, have a much clearer understanding of, like, what it means to want to protect non magical people. I mean, the one thing that Kingsley messes up on is something that I noticed, which is that he doesn't talk about creatures, right? Like, he doesn't talk about the fact that, like, there are creatures who are also being very disproportionately affected by all of this, and as a result, like, we should also try to protect them too. And that's a bias that I think makes Kingsley interesting. And in this book that I have written, now it's written, I wrote a book. Did I tell you all that? That I wrote a book that basically does a lot of the work that we're doing here together anyways, I did. And in that book, in the opening chapter, I talk about this and I talk about how Kingsley doesn't engage with the idea of creatures, despite the fact that we have Gornak, who's with Dean Thomas and Ted Tonks. And I think that there's a way that, like, that is interesting because it's like, well, of course he's still a wizard, he still messes up. But, like, that is me reading into the text. The text is not giving that to us. And I think that there is a way that in some ways progressivism and the desire therein can really undermine the reality of what it means to be a person regardless of race. And so that's the perfection trap, right, is that I think that people think, especially when you are writing this goes back to Bayer's earlier point. It's difficult to write characters of color when you don't understand that background. And there is a way in which you struggle then to figure out how to write them. And and so you either lean so far into some of the stereotypes you ignore them completely and just put them into the story and don't give them anything, or you make them perfect. And those are our three options. And I think we see all three here in the Harry Potter text. And I think that it's worth us thinking about and unpacking the utility of that. I mean, because I guess some people could say, well, is it better than nothing? And as I often say, right, like when the bar is in hell, it's easy to clear.

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[Professor Julian Womble]

The third and final theme that came up in the post episode chat was one that kind of hit me the hardest because it connects directly to where I think we're going to go next, which is the Dean Thomas of it all. And it's about kind of erasure versus presence. So you see, I've connected the themes. It's my brain doing the work. It's not my brain doing the work. It's just you all being brilliant and allowing this all to work and flow very well together. So thank you for making me and my job easier. Jaz wrote. It's such a great point that we know more about the backgrounds of some of the side white characters like Justin than we ever learn about more Prominent black characters like Lee and Angelina. I was so disappointed when I found out that Dean's backstory got cut from the books in favor of building Neville's character arc. Why can't we have both? It doesn't seem. It doesn't feel at all unrealistic to think we could have gotten the backstories of more of Harry's friends, especially the boys he was literally roommates with for six years. Nadia wrote, Dean, on the other hand, should have been written as an Arsenal supporter. Arsenal does have a multinational, multicultural fan base with high expectations. They can have a tendency towards drama in a packed scenario, but are creative and philosophical at their core. Gryffindor with Ravenclaw Moon. A lot of va va voom Rizz. For the uninitiated, I love that if supporting West Ham was meant to signal Dean was black, that was lost on me. I struggled to picture what he looked like because the club didn't fit his personality. I loved that he loved football, though. JoJo made a similar point about the invocation of the League or team that Dean loved. Didn't communicate race in the way that, I guess, JKR thought it would, which I think is really fascinating. And this is particularly true for the earlier versions of the UK first book, where JK was using kind of, I guess, the football teams as a means by which to communicate race. Lorian wrote, at the same time, there's absolutely no reason why we can't have detail for other characters like Dean 2. I pick him. As for me, he's the most egregious failure. He's in Harry's year and interacts with him a lot, but we could have had more detail for any of them. It's my turn. This never fails me because I think when I think about, like, all that we learn, right? Like, here's the thing about Neville's backstory. All we needed to know was that it could have been him, right? Like, all we needed to understand was that he could have been the one chosen. And we found that out early, right? Because we find it out in Goblet of Fire and. But like the chapter when they're at the hospital at St Mungo's and we meet his parents and his grandmother. Don't get me wrong, I love that moment. I think it is such a. A heartbreaking moment to navigate what Neville has been going through in silence. I think it is important, but I also am like, right, so Neville gets a whole chapter dedicated to this. We know from Seamus that his dad is a Muggle and his mom's a witch, right? He tells us that from jump. From the very, very beginning. When we meet him, we learn that we also know that his mother was basically like, I don't want you to go back to school because Harry Potter's insane. We find that out in order of the Phoenix. These moments we know. We learn about Lavender Brown's rabbit, and he died Old Binky. We know the rabbit's name. You know what I mean? Like, there are ways that it is. It's clearly not impossible to give backstory. We learn about Dean's dad. Like, the fact that Dean doesn't know who his father is in this one random moment when they are on the run on the Horcrux hunt. And it's like, there are so many moments where we could just be having these conversations and people are talking about themselves, and it just gives us a little bit more to work with. I'm not asking for the world. I'm not asking for a lot at all. To the points that were made by Lorian and by Jazz. We spend so much time with Dean. Dean was on the Quidditch team for a little while. He dates Ginny. He is in the space. Like, he lives with Harry in that dorm for six years. Why don't we know more about him? Why is it that we only get a singular moment with him explaining why he's on the run, and then the reason why is, like, the most stereotypical stereotype of the stereotypes that were stereotypical when they were stereotyped. Say that seven times fast. It just is not lost on me that there are moments where it's clear that JKR just said, why? Like, you wrote this whole thing about Dean's dad, and it would have been like, you could have done it in a way where, like, there was a file somewhere. Like, when Harry's running, rummaging through the files, maybe he just stumbles across an old one from Dean's dad. Or when he's going through the file in Filch's office and finds a file from Vincent. Like, there was a way that it would have anything. We could have gotten something, Angelina, anything. And I know this isn't a Hermione episode, but the same thing goes for her, right? Like, we don't know anything about. We know her parents are dentists, and that is it. And she's part of the Golden Trio. Like, there is a way that there's a particular group of people, white men, who we know a lot about. But are women. Women of color, characters of color? No, we don't know anything about Cho Chang except her favorite Quidditch team. We don't know anything about the Patil twins other than the fact that they're twins and they're in different houses. We don't know anything. And it just seems so unnecessary to have left out some of these details when we get random stuff left. And, like, there is a world where, like, it would have been easy to do. Like, we've got randomly crabbing Goyle transforming into little girls to stand. Like, the details. And the thing is, is like, J.K. rowling found room to include her own gendered biases, her transphobia. All of that stuff made it into the text. If she wanted to, she could have and she didn't. And that tells us a story about what she wanted. And again, let's be clear, this isn't just her, right? Like, there's a team of people who work. And I think that this highlights the reality, again, of whiteness as the default, but also what is deemed important. And sometimes, again, it's like the presence of, of these characters of color is all many people think is necessary to be seen and to project the idea of, like, inclusion. And I don't think that JKR is the only one who, for whom, like, this particular reality is true. I think it does take a lot of work. It takes a level of intention. Because the other thing that's interesting, right, is. And this is a question that we see kind of, that was kind of raised a little bit in the like with the inclusion of Dean's race in the US version, right? It's like, who do you think your audience is? And if you don't think your audience is gonna complain. But JoJo tells us in the post episode chat that there were complaints that some people were not pleased with the lack of black representation and the representation of other cultures. And I get it, because the UK is a diverse place. And it is always, it's like, this shows Sex and the City or Friends, right? And that these all take place in New York City, which is one of the most diverse cities in the entire world. And yet we very rarely see it, right? There is an intentionality that comes along with that decision that cannot be ignored. And I think we see that here. And so again, when the bar is in hell, it's easy to clear. And if erasure is the bar, right, it's like, well, they're there, so presence should be enough. And I always tell my students when it comes to their participation grade, your presence is not your present. You have to participate. And I want that for these characters. I want to know more about why Lee Jordan has a freaking tarantula. What are we doing? I want to know more about how Angelina Johnson got into Quidditch. I want to know more about Blaze Zabini and his mom and and how was she killing these men? Because good for you girl. I love that. But we don't get any of it. And I think the reason why we don't get any of it is because it wasn't deemed important or necessary because that them being there was all that was needed. And I don't know about you, but that will never be enough for me.

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[Professor Julian Womble]

This has been another episode of Critical Magic Theory. I'm Professor Julian Womble and if you liked today's episode, first of all, thank you. Please feel free to like rate, subscribe and do all the things that one does where pods are cast. Y'. All. Thank you so much for going on this journey with me. I know that it was a bit of a departure, but I personally think that it was a good one and a solid detour and it gave you more time to get ready for our Cho Chang episodes which are coming up next. If you have not done the Cho Chang survey, I will be posting it on Patreon again one last time on Sunday. Please feel free to check it out on my social media Prof. JW on Instagram Prof. W on TikTok criticalmagic theory.com is also there. I also hope that we get to have a continued conversation about this in the post episode chat, y'. All. I cannot wait to hear what you have to say. Until then, be critical and stay magical my friends. Bye. Are you really buying a car online on Autotrader right now?

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