Prof Responds: What's Missing from the Tale of Padma and Parvati Patil?

Summary

Critical Magic Theory – Prof Responds: What's Missing from the Tale of Padma and Parvati Patil?

Host: Prof. Julian Womble
Air Date: April 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this Prof Responds episode, Professor Julian Womble dives deep into a community-driven reflection on the Patil twins, Padma and Parvati, two oft-overlooked side characters from the Harry Potter series. Womble, drawing on listener feedback, comments, and post-episode chat contributions, analyzes what gets lost when we overlook side characters, especially girls of color. The conversation examines the twins’ roles within the narrative, their erasure in the films, gendered and racialized dynamics around key scenes (notably the Yule Ball), and how community engagement enriches analytic criticism.

Womble's tone is engaging, witty, self-aware, and unflinching as they unpack the importance of side characters and why critical reading means not just following Harry’s gaze.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Community and Podcast Context (01:18–09:49)

• Womble praises listeners for their engagement and expresses gratitude for community feedback, especially around identity and race in Harry Potter:

  "I really have enjoyed this experience. ...for those of you who have been on this journey and are riding out the wave of these secondary and tertiary characters with us, I thank you." (03:13)

• Announces upcoming book:

  "I wrote a book and it’s coming out this year apparently. Rumor has it the book is titled ‘Behind the Race Power in Harry Potter.’" (07:43)

  • Explains the book will synthesize their unfiltered podcasting analysis into a formal work.
• Reinforces value of side character analysis:

  "I’m living for the side characters that we barely even get to understand and see and experience because we're learning some things, okay?" (02:05)

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2. Twin Dynamics and How the Series Handles Twins (11:18–17:52)

• The Patil twins as the “second” twin set in the series after Fred and George; qualitative difference in how the series presents each set:
• Listener Kylie notes:

  “One thing I found interesting is how the text refers to twins. It’s always Fred and George, even though they are never apart. But...I remember Parvati and Padma are referred to as the Patil twins…” (11:37)

• Womble on Parvati’s narrative function:

  "In order for him [Harry] to see Parvati and, like, see her...she needs to be attached to someone else. ...And that someone is generally Lavender. And there’s a story there. I’m not gonna tell it, but there’s one." (16:56)

• Discussion highlights the lack of individuation for Padma/Parvati compared to Fred/George and how Parvati is consistently relegated to the background or second-fiddle to Lavender even in her own storylines.

Notable Moment:

• Sam (co-host/guest) interjects with playful banter about "best company" regarding community theorizing (13:23).

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3. The Yule Ball—Boys, Bias, and Broken Expectations (18:37–29:10)

• Community reactions express frustration with how Harry, Ron, and the narrative treat the Patil twins.
  • Listener Dan Echols:

    “To see how lousy Harry, our POV character, treats Parvati gets me...Big time ick.” (19:24)

  • Hello, Draya calls out the “boys will be boys pass” and the gendered/racialized expectations placed on the twins.
  • Jazz highlights problematic narrative language:

    "Drastic action feels so ick."

• Womble passionately responds:

  “Harry Potter considers asking one of the prettiest girls in his year to be drastic action… Like, you are a champion who is desperate, and you are acting like you're doing her a favor. Sir, if you don’t find a seat, perform a cushioning charm, and sit down.” (21:19)

• Addresses the persistent, gendered double standard:

  “There is a danger in promoting the idea that somehow it’s okay because they are teenage boys...We judged Lavender for something she did two years later...But we sat here and said, boys will be boys.” (24:27)

• Criticizes the compulsory heteronormativity of pairing up for the ball and the lack of agency granted to Parvati and Padma.

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4. Movie Adaptation Critique: Boggart Scene & “Patil Erasure” (29:10–34:56)

• Community notes the problematic change of Parvati’s boggart from a mummy (in books) to a cobra (in the movies).
  • Listener Bear:

    “In the movie, Parvati’s boggart is changed to a cobra because of course, we have to pair the girl with a South Asian identity with snake charming imagery.” (29:12)

• Womble’s take:

  “I think that they thought that it was, I don't know, indicative of something...like, it just seems so on the nose.” (29:28)

• Points out the selective visibility given to some minor characters in the films (e.g., Pansy’s extra line for comic relief) as compared to the almost total erasure of any meaningful Patil content.

  “There is an effort to promote certain people and certain voices and keep other people there as just being in the background.” (33:13)

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5. Listener Discoveries & “What the Community Noticed” (36:04–43:07)

• God-tier listener finds:
  • Rachel: Noted Padma’s implied off-page friendship with Luna (Order of the Phoenix)—"shows kindness in valuing a person for more than their social standing."
  • Paheli DC: Emphasized the significance of seeing South Asian representation, “even if the characters served as mostly background characters and were presented as unreasonable.”
  • Kylie: Advocated for Parvati speaking up in Umbridge’s class, a moment of practical, overlooked bravery.
• Womble reflects:

  “I love the idea that Padma went back to that common room...and rightfully so. ...And I love the idea, no matter what, that the story was told and that Luna heard it and that she felt a part of the community enough to be able to run it back when it came up again.” (38:37)

Naming and Symbolism:

• Rachel also points out the patriarchal blueprint in naming:

  “Parvati, the Hindu goddess of fertility...Padma, Lotus, purity, enlightenment. Both of them names for qualities the patriarchy has historically decided belong in the domain of women. ...Their names start to feel less like inspiration and more like a blueprint.” (39:46)

Representation and its Discontents:

• Womble:

  “[The books] offer a level of representation that a lot of books don’t still to this day, which is a terrifying indictment on the state of fantasy writing.” (47:53)

  • Reminds audience that flawed representation is still meaningful to readers otherwise erased from fantasy narratives, referencing an East Asian student’s reaction to Cho Chang.

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6. Final Reflection: What Do We Lose by Not Seeing the Patil Twins? (52:16–64:47)

• Womble poses the central question:

  “What do we lose if we don’t pay attention to the Patil twins, particularly Parvati...concretely, what is it that we actually miss when we let them stay in the background?” (52:32)

• Lists critical ways Parvati supports the main cast, often without recognition or reciprocity:
  • Checks on Hermione in the girls’ bathroom, enabling the iconic trio moment.
  • Stands up to Draco, indirectly aiding Harry’s hero’s journey.
  • Present at Dumbledore’s Army; supports grieving Lavender; stands her ground vs. Umbridge and in battle.
• Powerful insight:

  “The pattern of a woman or girl being indispensable and present and load bearing for everyone in her orbit while the people in her orbit cannot show up...is a recognizable pattern…particularly [for] women of color in the real world.” (55:17) “Their giving is noted, their needing is invisible. And maybe that’s Harry’s gaze...but maybe it’s because we as a society think that that’s the way it should work.” (56:08)

• Womble closes by encouraging listeners—especially those who see themselves as the ‘strong friend’—not to erase themselves from their own narrative the way the text erases the twins:

  “Some of us don’t ask for help, but we love to give it. ...And in so doing, we erase ourselves from the narrative in the same way that the Patil twins were erased. That’s what we miss. Friends.” (59:21)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Sir, if you don’t find a seat, perform a cushioning charm, and sit down.” (21:19)
• “Harry Potter considers asking one of the prettiest girls in his year to be drastic action. ...Like, you are a champion who is desperate, and you are acting like you’re doing her a favor.” (21:19)
• “Their giving is noted, their needing is invisible.” (56:08)
• “If you can give me that ‘Does it hurt terribly, Draco?’ moment [in the movies], then you can give me anything, huh?” (31:00)
• “The books...offer a level of representation that a lot of books don’t still to this day, which is a terrifying indictment on the state of fantasy writing.” (47:53)
• “Some of us are those friends. Some of us don’t ask for help, but we love to give it. ...And in so doing, we erase ourselves from the narrative in the same way that the Patil twins were erased.” (59:21)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |---------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Praise for Side Character Analysis, Book News | 01:18–09:49 | | Twin Dynamics: Patil vs. Weasley | 11:18–17:52 | | Yule Ball: “Drastic Action” & Gender/Race | 18:37–29:10 | | Movie Adaptation Boggart Critique | 29:10–34:56 | | Listener-Driven Insights and Symbolism | 36:04–43:07 | | Representation in Fantasy Books | 43:07–52:16 | | Reflection: What Do We Lose by Overlooking Twins? | 52:16–64:47 |

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Tone and Style

• Conversational, community-oriented, peppered with humor and academic insight.
• Open acknowledgement of “life is lifing,” busy listeners, and the ongoing negotiation between fun and deep criticism.
• Womble frequently affirms listeners who push the critical conversation further.

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Conclusion

Professor Womble’s episode is a masterful blend of close reading, fan engagement, and intersectional critique. The episode argues that giving attention to minor characters like Parvati and Padma not only changes what we see in Harry Potter, but asks us to reconsider how we value “background” people—especially women of color—both in fiction and real life. Womble invites listeners to be more attentive, more critical, and more grateful for the “load-bearing” people in our communities—bookish or otherwise.

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For ongoing discussion, listeners are encouraged to join the post-episode chats and check out the upcoming Dean Thomas episode and Prof. Womble’s forthcoming book Behind the Race Power in Harry Potter.

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“Be critical and stay magical, my friends.”

(Professor Julian Womble, 65:22)

Transcript

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[Professor Julianne Womble]

Welcome to Critical Magic Theory, where we deconstruct the wizarding world of Harry Potter. Because loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it. I'm Professor Julianne Womble and today is our Prof. Response episode on the Patil Twins. Y', all, listen, I know that the side characters don't always bring us the most joy, right? That many of us like to talk about the big characters. Everyone's biding their time and holding their breath for Harry. I know that many of us are catching up after taking time because life is lifing. And I respect that and I appreciate that. But for me personally, at this current stage and point in my life on this journey, I'm living for the side characters that we barely even get to understand and see and experience because we're learning some things, okay? And you all are bringing so many new thoughts to my brain. And I appreciate that because this old brain of mine, sometimes it needs some newness. Okay? No, but seriously, I really, really am grateful that you all have taken the time to send me DMs, participate in the post episode chat, write comments on Spotify talking about these episodes and these characters, because I really have enjoyed this experience. And we're making our way slowly but surely to the one and only Harry James. Potter and I know that once we get there, it's going to be chaos and I'm enjoying this lull. I'm still a bit hungover from the Dumbledore and Snape of it all. And so I'm not mad that we are taking this time. I know that many of us care about the characters that we care about. But for those of you who have been on this journey and are riding out the wave of these secondary and tertiary characters with us, I thank you. I appreciate all of you. But I am particularly grateful at this time for those of you who are with us on this particular journey because it has been very enriching for me. And many of you have also reached out and expressed that very similar sentiment that you like talking about these side characters and that there's a lot for us to unpack and also moments that we just forget. Like I, when I was doing the research for Padma and Parvati, I was like, oh, I realize that you all are in this book more than I thought, but just there like in the background and not really doing very much and yet doing so much. And it also makes me look at Harry with a little bit of a side eye. Cause I'm like, dude, what's going on here? And then of course there's the JKR of it all. And well, don't even get me started on that because why have the characters if you're not going to utilize them in any meaningful way? But I digress. That's not what this episode is about. Well, kind of is. I'm responding, but not to the author of the text, but to you all. And for those of you who participated in the post episode chat and I'm also including some comments from those of you who participated on Spotify as well. And I even got some DMs from Instagram that I didn't include. But also I'm probably gonna start. I realized that logging into the Patreon and you know, getting on and writing comments can sometimes be, you know, a bit more laborious. And sending DMs works also that we're not always listening. You know, the day the episode drops and some of us feel like, oh, if I haven't gotten it in now, then it doesn't really make any difference. Always feel free. I know and I love that some of are commenting on old post episode chats. That's okay, feel free to do that. I read them all the time. And so. And there will come a point in this podcast journey where we will go back and probably look at these characters again from a different perspective, a different grouping. And I will be referencing these post episode chats. So do not be discouraged if you are catching up. That's okay. I'm always excited to hear your thoughts and so always feel free to share them. Speaking of sharing thoughts, you know, you know what to do, like rate, subscribe, do all the things that one does where pods are cast. I love reading the comments on Apple podcasts because they make me feel better about things. I've also been very appreciative of those of you who have reached out to me concerning, you know, the more increased discussion surrounding identity and race and really encouraging me and helping me realize the utility and the importance of this particular conversation, which is not always going to be the conversation, but because we're having these conversations about how many times can I say conversation? Okay, but we're having these discussions about these characters of color. It seems important, especially given the backdrop of who the author is and the way that these books are set up and the world in which they exist. So thank you all for the encouragement. I really appreciate it because yeah, it can feel a little weird and I, you know, I don't ever want anyone to feel uncomfortable. But I also do want to be honest and truthful. I also have to be honest and truthful that it's time to bop, friends. It's been time to bop. To bop, to bop. Because once you bop, the fun don't stop. And the bop is coming to you in three, two, one. Let's bop. We do something.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest (Sam)]

Sam, I hope you danced.

[Professor Julianne Womble]

I hope you dance a vocal for you. A little something before we get started and dive right in and you know we will because we don't dilly, we don't deli, we don't delay on the Prof. Response episodes. But I do have some exciting news that I guess I can finally truly confirm because I couldn't do it before, even though I was alluding to it, but I wrote a book and it's coming out this year apparently. Rumor has it the book is titled behind the Race Power in Harry Potter. Yeah, I did it. I wrote it. It's written like full tilt like the book is written. I have to do the edits, but like the book is happening, friends. We're currently in the process of just figuring out some of the logistics and you know, doing the edits and so on and so forth. But I think I can announce, I mean I signed the contract, so I guess it's now I can do that. The book is happening, friends. And as soon as I know something, you will know something in terms of dates, pre ordering the whole nine. But the book is happening. This was the craziest thing I've ever done, friends. Not ever done, but you know, when you write an academic book, you write it and it's kind of like, oh, okay, you know, you know, you cite a bunch of people and you do your whole thing. But like, this was like my, my brain, just like my brain without like leaning on anyone else and my thoughts and trying to distill down the madness, absurdity, foolishness and craziness that I tend to bring to you, all very unfiltered and make it sound like super smart in a book that's going to be consumed by hopefully many of you, if not all of you, but also other people. And so it was a journey, but I did it. It's not done yet, but I think I can announce it. If I can't. Well, it's announced now. Anyways, we have to drum up excitement, so get excited. But before you get excited, not before. While you're getting excited, it's time to get into the Patil twins.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest (Sam)]

So let's go.

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[Professor Julianne Womble]

So the first theme that came up in the post episode chat was actually something that I didn't get to talk about in the main episode because time. And it was really something that I wanted to talk about, but I'm glad that we dedicate two episodes to the characters because then I didn't feel like I was missing out on anything because I wanted to talk about the twin of it all. Because the Patil twins are the two. The second set of twins that we meet in the text. And Fred and George are obviously the most prominent twins that we meet. And I think it's really interesting when we think about kind of what it means that the series has two set of twins and what it reveals, that one set gets to be like a duet and the other one is more of a visual unit. And I think I brought this up in the last episode, but the fact that, like, Parvati is obviously biologically twinning with Padma, but also kind of Gryffindorianly. Yes, that's a word. Twinning with lavender. And so that there are very few moments where we get to see her kind of existing outside of being a part of a duo. Right. Kylie wrote. One thing I found interesting is how the text refers to twins. It's always Fred and George, even though they are never apart. But I feel like I remember Parvati and Padma are referred to as the Patil twins. Questioning if this is actually the case, though, sleuths. And I know you're out there, check on this for us, because I think that there's something to this. Right. Like, I don't. I. It's rare that we get the two of them, like, separated that way, the way that we get Fred and George. But it could also be that me and Kylie made it up together. And if that's the case, Kylie, you're in good company. Some.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest (Sam)]

Some are saying the best company.

[Professor Julianne Womble]

I don't know. But anyways, I don't want to get distracted. Rachel writes, when they are together, it's the Patil twins. Otherwise, it's usually Lavender and Parvati. Right. So even here, right? Like, oops, oops, oops. What do you think?

[Podcast Co-host or Guest (Sam)]

It's my turn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Professor Julianne Womble]

My turn. I think that what's interesting about this is that Fred and George are obviously a unit. We see them, you know, discussed as such. Harry talks about how they're identical down to the last freckle. Right. And we experience them very much as a unit, despite the fact that there are also moments where they, you know, are kind of doing their own thing. But even in those moments, right. Like, the only time we really see them separated from one another is in the last book when one goes with one person disguised as Harry and some. And the other goes with someone else. Right. And in this case. Right. Like, there is this kind of understanding of who they are, not as individuals, but as in the collective. Right. Like as a duo. And we don't question it. But it's interesting because we don't get the opportunity to do that with Padma in poverty because of the fact that Padma is in Ravenclaw. But we also then rarely get, like, these moments alone with poverty. And when we do, they kind of fade into the background of, you know, what it means for, like, who she is, because we tend to associate her with lavender. And the moments where Harry's attention is really drawn to poverty are the moments when she's with lavender. So that these other moments, the defense of Neville, the, you know, he notices it, but there's no commentary provided. It's just kind of a passing thought, something that you just happen to see and you keep it moving. Right. And there is a way that I think that there's something really fascinating about that because I think there are questions about, you know, how we're meant to understand who twins are outside of just being twins. And poverty actually has an opportunity to explore that in a way that I think is different than Fred and George do. But we as readers don't get to experience that because normally when these things happen, even when she's making commentary like against Umbridge in Order of the Phoenix, or that, it's all this kind of these passing moments. And we don't necessarily take that to be kind of character development. It's just, oh, someone said something. Which is why many of us are like, oh, I forgot about that moment where she, you know, tells Draco to shut up. And Pansy is like, girl, I didn't know you was out here, you know, trying to get with. With Neville. Like, that moment completely escapes me. And part of it, I think, is also because of the kind of patil erasure in the movies. But we'll get into that a little later because there is something to be said about that. And I think that there's a world where, you know, it's easier as a writer to kind of group people together. But from Harry's perspective, it seems like in order for him to see Parvati and, like, see her not just kind of hear her or. But to kind of acknowledge her as, like, a person, she needs to be attached to someone else. And that someone is generally lavender. And there's a story there. I'm not gonna tell it, but there's one.

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[Professor Julianne Womble]

The next theme that came up was one that many of us had thoughts on, and rightfully so. So get ready, buckle up, because I feel already in my spirit that I'm going to go off because the Yule Ball of it all really just, ooh, just makes me so mad. Mad. Dan Echols wrote, I always found the whole Yule Ball scene incredibly gross. Even I who shrivels in shame over how I was seen, how I was as a teen. Even back then I still put my best foot forward for my date at the school formal and we were barely friends. But I wanted us to have a nice time. And we did, by thunder. And to see how lousy Harry, our POV character treats poverty gets me gives me the ick. Big time. Hello, Draya wrote Ron and Harry's behavior gets the classic boys will be boys pass. Frankly, it's dangerous when boys face no consequences for treating girls poorly. It teaches them that a boy's comfort is more important, that girls are beneath consideration, and that girls can be punished for expressing emotions. Also, I see how the Patil twins illustrate something that happens to women of color constantly. They're expected to do the work while reaping little to no reward. And when they dare to voice frustration about that, their emotions are used as evidence that they actually deserved the disrespect. The twins upset reaction to being treated at the Yule Ball was somehow recast as proof that they were the problem, Jazz wrote. Just reread the scene where Harry asked Parvati to the Yule Ball and then this is the quote. But Harry had just seen poverty and Lavender hello come through the portrait hole. The time had come for drastic action. Ugh, drastic action feels so ick. Jazz writes. If Parvati is one of the prettiest girls in the year, why is it a drastic last ditch thing to ask her? And Ron doesn't even ask Padma. Harry asked Parvati if she knows anyone who would Go with him. And she says she'll ask her sister. Erica wrote, why is Parvati standing there giggling? It's strange and doesn't seem realistic. I understand she giggles with lavender, but this sounds like an effort to submit poverty as an undesirable date. You know how Harry feels about girls laughing, not, you know how he feels about girls laughing. Heaven forbid girls have a sense of humor.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest (Sam)]

Anyways, it's my turn.

[Professor Julianne Womble]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when Jazz went back to the text and found something that was actually worse than what I said in the episode drastic action, Harry Potter considers asking one of the prettiest girls in his year to be drastic action. And those are the words that are chosen in the narrative. Not exciting, not hopeful. Drastic, desperate. I've run out of better options, and this is what I have left. And here's the thing, y'. All. And, you know, there is a world in which I wonder where men and boys, where we get the audacity from. I mean, obviously, I know it's patriarchy, but it is wild to me that Harry is out here really acting like he's a prize to be won. Like, yeah, you're a champion for sure. And yet, no, the girls are not running you down, huh? You're still one of the last people my guy. And so for him to be out here acting like asking Parvati was drastic action, craziness, fooleration, some are saying, because. What do you mean? Like, you are a champion who is desperate, and you are acting like you're doing her a favor. Sir, if you don't find a seat, perform a cushioning charm, and sit down. And don't even get me started on one Ronald Bilious Weasley, because the audacity that that child has is really crazy. And it's so interesting, right, because the boys will be boys of it all really does kind of under. Underline the behavior that we're witnessing here. And we are so quick, I think, to be so forgiving of them for the way that they act. And. And I understand, right, that they are young and, you know, this is a constant refrain that I get. But at the end of the day, what about Parvati and Padma? Like, why does it feel like their, like, emotions and their response, like they wanted to go, too? I also just. I don't love the, like, you know, necessary heteronormativity that they all have to have dates or feel compelled to have dates. Like, why couldn't they go by themselves? Like, they could have gone together. Listen, from what I know from personal experience, going with Friends is a better vibe. It's a better vibe. And so the fact that that wasn't an option, that was leveraged here because the author of the text decided that everybody had to be paired off. Crazy work. And so now these two girls had to suffer because they went with these two dudes who, like, I mean, I guess Harry needed to have a date because he was a champion. But, like, what? And don't. And that's to say nothing of the moment where Ron says to Hermione, like, oh, you're a girl. Like, the audacity. It's crazy. And I just think that, like, obviously there is a selfishness that comes along with being a teenager. There is this kind of self absorption and inflated sense of self and who you are and what you can do. Um, I guess when I was a teenager, I was so outlandishly insecure that the prospect of navigating the world this way just does not resonate with me. I would never. Especially because I'm like, Ron, you came out here looking busted and disgusted in these bootleg robes, and you really are acting like you're a prize. Like, you sat there and all you did all night was look at. Look for Hermione because you thought that she was going to be. She was lying to you because she didn't want to be embarrassed. Like, the idea that we sat there and the only thing we're really mad about for Ron is the fact that he ostensibly ruined Hermione's night. But the Patil twins are fortunate enough that their face cards don't decline and that the Beauxbaton and Durmstrang dudes saw what was good and came over and snatched them up. But they had to make do. They had to make the night work for them. And it's like, in a world where, like, your inability to fake it till you make it your idea that you only need to have dates so that everyone else doesn't look at you, look on you with pity, and you don't really care whether your date enjoys themselves. Like, it's that kind of mentality that I think is really dangerous. And I do think that there is a danger in promoting the idea that somehow it's okay because they are teenage boys. Like, yes, insecurity reigns supreme when you're a teenager. And yes, like, all of these things. But let's not forget, and let's never, ever, ever let go of the fact that many of us sat there and we judged Lavender for something she did two years later. Huh? We judged Cho for something she did. A year later and with actual reasonable emotional responses. And yet we sat here and said, boys will be boys. It's okay. Like, this is just how boys are. And, you know, there's that whole, like, if he's mean to you, he likes you vibe, y'. All, we need to leave that in, like, 1972, because it's time for us to think about some accountability for these two dudes. And what they do to these young girls, to these girls is unacceptable. And again, it's also annoying because the asking of Parvati and Padma has actually nothing to do with them. He just happens to see them walk in and had to take drastic action, right? Like, they were just warm bodies that he needed to take with him to the ball so that no one would think he was a loser. The whole thing is about him. The whole thing. The audacity. From whence does it come? The next theme comes from a conversation that was surrounding the movies. In particular the scene with the boggart and the changes that were made in the movie. Because in the Bogg. In the text, Poverty's boggart is a mummy, but in the movie it is a snake. A cobra. Bear writes small note. In the movie, Poverty's boggart is changed to a cobra because of course, we have to pair the girl with a South Asian identity with snake charming imagery. Maybe I'm being hard on that moment, but I definitely noticed it when rewatching it last month and rolled my eyes. Fenty wrote, this may not be the moment, but there is so much about the movies that irritate me to distraction. They. The things they miss out. The things they miss out for no reason. And the things they change for no reason. Here's the thing, though. Changing it to a co. Oh, wait, wait, wait.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest (Sam)]

It's my turn. It's my turn. Did you hear that? It's my turn. Turn. It's my turn. Don't be confused that it's your turn. It's not your turn. It's my turn, My turn.

[Professor Julianne Womble]

This song is getting out of hand anyways. It is my turn. I won't say that they took it out for no reason. They definitely changed it for a reason. And I think that they thought that it was, I don't know, indicative of something. I don't know why changing it from a mummy makes it any to a cobra made the moment any better other than, like, it is actually cultural and an intentional decision on the part of the writers that this was a thing that they needed to do. Because why? Like, it just seems so on the nose. In a way that is unnecessary. But the other thing that stands out to me about the movies, it's not only this moment, but it's the lack of other moments. Like, we see the twins because we already know that in the movies they have. Parvati and Padma are both Gryffindors. We see them quite a bit just in Face Alone, right in the Order of the Phoenix. We see them kind of running down the hall. When they do the High Harry in tandem in Goblet of Fire, we know that they end up. They change the character. They change the actor from book three to book four in the movies. But these moments that we've been talking about the last couple of episodes where we get to see poverty kind of stand up to Draco, and, you know, all of these moments, they simply just don't exist. And again, it's so fascinating to me because it's, like, why? Like, it's a passing moment. It's not as if it can't exist. One of my favorite moments in the Prisoner of Azkaban movie is after Buckbeak has scratched Draco, and we are panning through the great hall, and we see the ghost kind of break through the kind of window, and Pansy has Draco's head in her lap, and she goes, does it hurt terribly, Draco? And I just don't know why I think it's so funny, but I think it's hysterical because it's random. And, you know, he's all, oh, yeah, like, a couple more minutes, and I would have really lost my arm. And he's playing it up like crazy. And my thought is, if you can give me that. If you can give me a does it hurt terribly, Draco moment, then you can give me anything, huh? You can give me anything. And, like, because that's how fast these moments with poverty happen in the books they're passing. And there's simply no reason why Pansy needed another line. And, like, there's just a way that I think even in the movies we're seeing the theme of who gets to kind of exist. Because the reality is, y', all, like, Pansy obviously plays a part in the story, but not in any meaningful way, right? Like, to the point where she needed to be featured with a line in that movie. Like, you could have left that out and given me, you know, other moments in other moves. Like, it just seems that there's an intentionality here that I want to name and call out because it just feels

[Podcast Co-host or Guest (Sam)]

like

[Professor Julianne Womble]

there is an effort to promote certain people and certain voices and keep other people there as kind of just like being in the background. And then when they do have a moment, you change it so that it becomes specific. As if we didn't see this little South Asian girl get up there. All of a sudden now she has to be looking at a cobra. And then that. And then that's what she turns into, that terrifying Jack in a box. And I'm like, is this supposed to be funny? Because I'm still scared. It is never lost on me. And I do want to do at some point, a kind of iteration of our conversations where I. Where we have a conversation about what's in the movies and what's not and unpack the why. Like, maybe I'll do a survey where I ask, like, do you think that the changes were necessary? I know most of you will probably say no, but I do think that there's something worth calling out here in this moment, right? The one moment where we get to see some indication. And maybe, maybe the writers and the people thought like, well, we want to show pride. To which I say, don't do that again. Don't do that again. Like, want more, do better. In that order, please.

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[Professor Julianne Womble]

The last theme is one that I've never quite done before, but I also am excited about it because this is the one where the community genuinely did the work. Things that I didn't do right, things that I didn't look for that you all found. And I'm excited to talk through them because I think, yeah, like, how cool is it that that's why I love what we do, friends? But this is going to be a discussion of some of the thoughts and things that you all had that didn't necessarily map on directly into kind of the overall themes of things, but still are things that are worth thinking about that I think you might like to consider. Rachel wrote, I loved how this episode let us see how friendly and loyal the Patil twins are. At one point there was a question of whether or not Padma was friends with Luna in Order of the Phoenix. Luna looks at Ron and comments that he went to the Yule Ball with Padma and that Padma didn't have a good time. Luna was probably not at the Yule Ball to see this happen, so Padma must have told her, we know Luna wasn't the most popular student, so for Padma to befriend her shows kindness in valuing a person for more than their social standing. Or Ron was such a bad date to Padma that the entirety of Ravenclaw House heard about it and those things aren't mutually exclusive. Paheli DC wrote, thanks so much for giving visibility to fellow South Asian girlies with a P name. I think these twins are really important for me reading these books at the age of nine and seeing myself potentially getting a letter in two years. But I agree that they served as mostly background characters and were presented as unreasonable for not being okay with Harry's jerk treatment of them, which makes a lot of sense. And Kylie wrote, I appreciate the scene in order the Phoenix when the whole Defense against the Dark Arts class is challenging Umbridge's ministry approved gaslighting and curriculum. Parvati speaks up, raising a valid question about spellwork being on the practical exam. She's bringing up a valid point about her education. At the same time it's glossed over in favor of Harry's explosion justice for Parvati.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest (Sam)]

It's my turn.

[Professor Julianne Womble]

I'll never get over that. And it's you all, it's you all's fault that I do that. But I'm glad that you all love it. Maybe we should make a T shirt. Just throwing it out there. I have to start with Rachel's discovery of Padma and Luna because this is the kind of thing that makes me realize how much I love doing these post episode chats because I never ever would have done that. Like that's not a moment that I tracked in Order of the Phoenix at all. And I love that. I love the idea that Padma went back to that common room. Maybe she just told Luna and maybe she told Luna first and then she went off. But I wanted her. I wanted to go back into that place and raise hell. I want her to crash out because I'm like, yeah Ron, you're garbage for that. You Treated her terribly and just pouted the whole time. Why? Ask her. Don't even get me started again, friends. I can't. I just love the idea that Padma went in and told people who weren't there. And knowing Luna, she probably asked her. This is speculative, friends. I know. You know, how did it go in her Luna way? And Padma probably went off, and rightfully so. And so I just love the idea that, like, Padme was like, yeah, it was not great and here's why. And that she wasn't trying to, like, be kind. And I love that Luna also was like, remember that time you were mean and a mess. We talked about this in Luna's episode, right? About how good she is at holding people accountable. Love her for that. And I love the idea, no matter what, that the story was told and that Luna heard it and that she felt a part of the community enough to be able to run it back when it came up again. I just, I absolutely love that. I love. And that's like a moment that we, I mean, like, I, again, I have not thought about. And I also love. Later on in the. In Rachel's comment, there was a commentary about the names, right? Parvati, the Hindu goddess of fertility, love, devotion, strength, and Padma, Lotus, purity, enlightenment. Both of them names for qualities the patriarchy has historically decided belong in the dome, the domain of women. And when you put those names next to the way these characters are written, always devoted, always supportive, always adjacent to someone else's story, never quite the center, the names start to feel less like inspiration and more like a blueprint, like the text or the. And the author knew from page one that these girls were going. What these girls were going to be. And I love Kylie's note about Parvati being genuinely upset and highlighting the fact that, like, you say that you're preparing us for this exam, but there's a practical piece to it that you're wanting us to ignore. Make it make sense. Dolores. Like, I think that there's a way, again, where we're having these moments of bravery and it's grounded in truth. And I also do think that there's a way that, you know, the invocation of, you know, that moment kind of gets brushed aside so that Harry can have a full on crash out is really interesting because there is a way that we kind of expect women and girls to bring facts, right? One of the things I have a friend and he, when we've been friends for a very long time, and he does not respond well to, like, big anger, like big emotions. My Friend who has a daughter and she has two kids, but they watch Ms. Rachel, and there's was a song.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest (Sam)]

The song is like, Big feelings are okay.

[Professor Julianne Womble]

My friend does not think that big feelings are okay. And I am a big feeling. Havert. I don't know if you know that about me, friends. And so. But when I was younger, I used to, like, crash out, and he was so, like, not responsive to that. Like, he would just kind of look at me like I was a psycho and just not engage. And so I had to learn how to, like, deal with my emotions in a way that I could get a response out of him that I was hoping for. Meanwhile, he flies off the handle, but it takes him so long to get there, and then once he's there, he cannot control himself. And it was like, right, so when you crash out, it's valid, huh? And it's interesting because in this moment, right, like, both Parvati and Hairy are making the same point about the absurdity and how ludicrous it is that they do not want them to learn how to do magic that is defensive in nature, not just because of, you know, there's no danger quote, unquote, but also because it's, like, required for the exam, and so they're angry about it. And there's a way that Parvati's perspective on this seems more illegitimate because it's not as big as Harry's, but it also is such a gendered hallmark of the need to stay small and rational and intentional and. And, like, coherent. All the while, Harry is going off. And it reminds me of the conversation we had about Harry and Cho and the fact that, like, he is also grieving and navigating the loss of Cedric in a very similar way to Cho, but she emotes more than he does. And he's like, I don't like that. Meanwhile, he's flying off the handle and the legitimacy that's given to him in that moment by us as the reader, right? It feels so justified. And then again, we talked about this with Angelina Johnson, right? Another woman of color who is having to come in and kind of try to get him together so that he can play Quidditch and he cannot, for the life of him, hold it together. And don't get me wrong, I understand the why of it, but I also think that there's something to be said about the fact that he is totally losing it and that there are women in his orbit who are navigating a similar space of trying to figure out why it is that they can't learn and it just is brushed over. Like Angelina's annoyance at Harry for his inability to control himself is kind of brushed off as being irrational because doesn't. Why wouldn't, why wouldn't he be angry? You know, poverty being like, but what about the exam? Is kind of like, yeah, girl. Exactly. But, but, but more than that, more important than that reality of it, which is probably a more reasonably justifiable question to ask someone like Umbridge then going off about Voldemort, which you know that they don't want to hear. And you do. And you know that because you've been told. And anyways, I think you know that moment again, that we don't get that in the movie either, right? We just get Harry's anger. And I know he's the main character, y', all, I get it, he's the titular character. But again, it is not lost on me what we lose. And then obviously, what is so fascinating to me and what I'm so glad that Pahele DC brought up in the post episode chat was the importance of these characters, no matter how small they are. And I tell people this all the time when we talk about these books and how, you know, there is no denying that they are racially problematic on a number of dimensions. We spent the last couple of months really unpacking how problematic they are on a number of dimensions. But one of the things that we have to lay claim to is the fact that they also offer a level of representation that a lot of books don't still to this day, which is a terrifying indictment on the state of fantasy writing. And that like, despite the fact that we get so little of Padmon poverty, there are little South Asian girls who are seeing themselves here. Even in these little glimpses, they're seeing themselves. And again, like I. Which is to say nothing of all the issues that these books present to us, but it is to invite us to realize that like one, the dearth of representation in fantasy literature is still at an all time high for a number of reasons, but that even in the midst of all of that, there are ways that people can find themselves. And I think we can't take that for granted because for many of us this has not been an issue. We find ourselves in these texts without a problem and we don't really think about how other people don't or the lengths to which people have to, you know, suspend their disbelief. Right. To find themselves in text. And I think it is amazing and I'm so glad that it was brought up how you know what? How people are able to do this and find themselves in these books and that again. And I remember I had a student when I first started teaching my Harry Potter class who was like, he's East Asian. And he said, you know, Cho Chang is a terrible name. But I knew immediately that it was someone like me and that mattered. And I thought, wow, there's always room for criticism, don't get me wrong. But I also think it's important for us to realize that, like, in the midst of all of that, there is also this particular reality that because of the state of fantasy writing, you can get a character like Cho Chang whose name is problematic to the nth degree, and it still stands as representation for someone else, and it still matters to them, and that they are forced to, in many ways, overlook this particular kind of reality of how problematic it is because they are so not used to seeing themselves represented in any capacity. And that means something. And so we have to take the good with the bad, and we can always want more. But I think we also have to recognize what we've got.

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[Professor Julianne Womble]

We've now reached the point in the episode where I'm going to give a reflection, and I want to give this reflection by focusing on a question, not a rhetorical one, an actual question that I've been sitting with since finishing the last episode and building this one. And I think it's the right note to go out on before you move on to Dean Thomas next week. Also, speaking of Dean, listen, I know for those of you on the listserv, I haven't sent it out yet. Okay. Life was hectic. My students reminded me that I hadn't been grading things. You're gonna get it. I also stress out because I try to, like, send it to you at the most optimal time. And I just feel like that's not during the week because, like, life. So I'm gonna schedule to send it so you all will get it on Saturday. I'm gonna repost this, repost the survey for the Patreon on Sunday, and then we'll be set to go. Okay, friends, so you will get it. But anyways, before we get there, one thing that I often do whenever I am writing a paper for work and I have to write, you know, one of the big things in academia is we have to talk a lot about, like, the contribution of the work. And when you're in graduate school, you don't quite know what that means, but, you know, you've got to say something. And one of the things that I have really kind of come up with that works very well for me is thinking about, what is it that we stand to lose by not having the work that I've created? What answers don't we have? What situations can't we explain? And I was thinking about the Patil twins, and the question that I came up with as I was thinking about them and all the things that we've discussed is, what do we lose if we don't pay attention to the Patil twins, particularly Parvati, just because she's the one who's the most kind of in hairy sights. And I don't mean this in an abstract way, like, specifically, concretely, what is it that we actually miss when we let them stay in the background, the way the text invites us to, when we only notice them when Harry notices them and look away. When he looks away. And here's what I think we miss. We miss the fact that Parvati Patil is one of the most consistently present people in the lives of characters that we do pay attention to. She's the one who notices Hermione crying in the girl's bathroom and checks on her. And here's the thing that's crazy. If Parvati hadn't done that, Harry and Ron would have had no idea that she was in the bathroom. They wouldn't have known where to go look for her and they wouldn't have even gone to try to look for her. They ultimately locked the troll in that bathroom and forget that she's in there. Because boys. But there is a world in which, like, that information mattered and they would not have had it at all. And that is so telling because it's like, without that crucial information, who knows what might have happened to Hermione. She, Parvati is the one who defends Neville when Draco comes after him, which then galvanizes Harry in that moment to go and get the Remembrall back. And he becomes a seeker, right? She supports Lavender through her grief when the rest of the school, namely Hermione, thinks that she's being ridiculous. She's one of the people brave enough to show up at the DA and work really hard. She fights her parents to stay at school after what happened to Katie Bell happened. She curses Dolahav when he goes after Dean. She is, across all seven books, constantly in motion toward other people. She forgives Harry. She probably didn't forget. But the moment where Ron and Lavender are doing whatever sort of canoodling they're doing and she's talking to Harry, she's just there commiserating with the fellow best friend of the coupled. She's not rude to him. She's not mean in a way that he probably deserves. She just talks to him because it was two years ago. Lots of things change. People change. They mature. Right? We have to move on. She is present for people when they need her to be. And she clearly doesn't hold a grudge, which is more than I can say because I would have absolutely been like, I don't want to talk to you. I'd have just stood there and looked at him. And what's more about all of this, all the giving that she does, and as far as we as readers are concerned and what we see, almost none of those people reciprocate that. Maybe Lavender, but Harry cannot be bothered to make eye contact with her. Most of the Yule Ball. Ron treats her sister as an obligation. He resents the films. Cut. The moments where she is brave and caring and kept. The moments where she's decorative and discarded and giggling and girly and kind of absurd in ways that we so easily fall prey to as people who tend to just be very critical of feminine femininity. And what's more is that most of us didn't notice because we're trained not to. And I want to say this so clearly, like this pattern, the pattern of. Of a woman or a girl being indispensable and present and load bearing for everyone in her orbit while the people in her orbit cannot show up or don't show up or we don't see them show up, is a recognizable pattern for many, many, many women, particularly women of color in the real world. The person who checks on everyone, who shows up when she doesn't have to, who is always available, always present, always there when something needs to be held together, and who, when she needs something in return, finds the people she has been holding up have already either looked the other way or don't recognize it because she's a strong friend. She stood up to Umbridge. She stood up to Draco at 11 years old. Like, what does she need me for? She can figure that out. We have spent months now with women and women of color in this text. Tonks, Fleur, Cho, the Patils. And what I keep finding every single time is that the text gives us enough to see them doing this work. The emotional labor, the support, the showing up. And not enough of us seeing them being held up in return. Their giving is noted, their needing is invisible. And maybe that's Harry's gaze and that he's not looking and so neither are we. And maybe it's because we as a society think that that's the way that it should work, that that Dean and. And Sheamus get to snicker, and it's annoying, but whatever. But God forbid, God forbid the girls giggle. God forbid the fact that giggling is seemingly gendered in these books and snickering is for men and giggling is for girls untied, But that's what we lose if we don't pay attention, right? If we just allow the text to guide us in the direction that it wants us to go in. We miss so much. We lose the texture of how communities actually function. We lose the understanding of who is holding things together and at what cost. We lose the ability to ask why the person who checked on Hermione in the bathroom, who defended Neville on the lawn, who stayed when her parents begged her to leave, who cursed a Death Eater in a war she didn't have to fight, why that person stands in the Great hall at the end of the series and we still barely know anything but her name. And I think that question matters beyond the page because we are surrounded by people like Parvati and Padma who got angry at Ron and went back to that common room and probably let everybody know about it. Someone who spoke her mind, who didn't chalk it up and say, well, at least I had a date. I was there with Harry Potter's best friend. No, she was upset. Both of these girls were brave enough to be like this. Deuces to these two dunces and go and find a way to have fun. We know people like that. People who are present for us in ways that we may not even fully account for. People whose support we have accepted most and move past without stopping to ask what it might have cost them or what they might need in return. Some of us are those people. I know you all don't like it when I come marching down your streets. And I know many of you are gonna try to send me your therapist bills. I'm not paying them. Friends. But some of us are those friends. Some of us don't ask for help, but we love to give it. I'm talking to myself now. If you happen to be here, then that's fine. But this is mostly to me. Some of us think that it's burdensome to ask people for the things that we need. We'll figure it out. We can make it work. And in so doing, we erase ourselves from the narrative in the same way that the Patil twins were erased. That's what we miss. Friends. I hope that these episodes help us understand not only the fun of reading closely and critically, but also why it's important. As I get closer to this book coming out, I think I'm, like, contractually obligated to talk more about this thing because that's what the book does, right? That's what. But we've already been doing it. The book is just writing down the work that we have been doing for two. Almost two and a half years now. Also, can you believe it's almost June? Crazy time is wild. But I loved this moment. I love the exploration of the Patil twins, and I'm grateful that we got to do it together. I'm excited for the dean of it all, and so thank you for going on this journey. I know that the Patil twins are ones that, you know, were kind of a bit of a stretch, and I wasn't really sure what I was going to do, but I'm grateful that you went on this journey with me. Friends. What a tad. This has been another episode of Critical Magic Theory. I'm Professor Julian Womble, and if you like, today's episode. First of all, thank you. Please feel free to like rate, subscribe and do all the things that one does where pods are cast y'. All. The Dean Thomas survey is up and

[Podcast Co-host or Guest (Sam)]

available for for you on Patreon.com Criticalmagic

[Professor Julianne Womble]

theory if you want to do it and you should want to do it because it's going to be a good episode. I promise you if the Patil twins are anything then we are set to go. So if you're on the listserf you're gonna get it. Okay? Please feel free to follow me on social media at ProfW on TikTok and Prof. JW on Instagram again. You can join us in a post episode chat for this episode Critical Magic Theory. No no no. Patreon.com criticalmagic theory you can also go to our website criticalmagic theory.com where you can find merch and all the things y'.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest (Sam)]

All.

[Professor Julianne Womble]

Thank you. Until next time, be critical and stay magical my friends. Bye.