Prof Responds- Who is a Hero?

Summary

Critical Magic Theory: An Analytical Harry Potter Podcast

Episode: Prof Responds – Who is a Hero?
Host: Prof. Julian Womble
Date: June 10, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Critical Magic Theory features Prof. Julian Womble’s response to the ongoing, vibrant community debate about the nature of heroism in the Harry Potter universe. Building upon prior discussions—and fueled by post-episode chats, Discord debates, and survey responses—Prof. Womble challenges listeners to think critically about how we define a hero, why we set the bar for heroism where we do, and what the implications are for characters of different ages, backgrounds, and blood statuses. The episode is rich with listener commentary, scholarly insight, and a signature blend of humor and academic energy, all while hyping up the community for the upcoming deep dives into Harry Potter himself.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Challenge of Defining "Hero"

Timestamps: [16:19] – [22:45]

• Nuance Over Simplicity:
  The conversation opens with recognition of the difficulty—even futility—of creating a single, agreed-upon definition of a hero.

  • Quote (Jazz, Listener):

    “So all that work and debate to come up with a definition was bogus after all. ... There is so much nuance surrounding all these characters and their individual circumstances.” ([16:40])

  • Prof. Womble commends the community for grappling with contextual differences across characters, noting that the debate itself is “productive work,” despite its lack of satisfaction for those craving a final answer.

• Inclusivity vs. Exclusivity:
  Some definitions aim to make heroism rare and exclusive; others ask why heroism can’t be more accessible.

  • Quote (Kim C, Listener):

    “Why do heroes have to be rare? Why can’t we be living in a world where heroism is easy? ... Why can’t everyone be a hero?” ([17:32])

  • Prof. Womble encourages listeners to consider whether our instinct to set the bar high is helping or hindering our understanding of the term and offers that perhaps retroactive definition-shaping leads us to exclude more than we include.

• Hero vs. Heroic Acts:
  Emily H. and others question whether one needs to have particular intent or motivation to be counted as a hero, or whether heroic acts themselves suffice. Prof. Womble points out that often, our mind jumps to a “Yes/No” answer when asked if a character is a hero, then we construct a definition to justify our snap judgment.

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2. Identity, Context, and Bias: Blood Status, Age, and Responsibility

Timestamps: [22:45] – [34:20]

• Blood Status and Perceptions of Heroism:
  Prof. Womble introduces a provocative theme about whether pure-blood wizards are more likely to be seen as heroic, based on survey feedback and community responses.

  • Quote (Marsha, Listener):

    “For Pure Blood heroes, we often give younger characters a lot of grace ... but with Half Blood characters it often feels like the opposite. The adults are held to a much higher standard than the children because they're older, should know better and have more at stake.” ([24:36])

  • The group discusses discrepancies in expectations for different characters—Neville is lauded for bravery at 17, while Sirius is harshly critiqued for his impulsive actions as an adult.

• Age and the Expectation of Heroism:
  Prof. Womble and listeners reflect on how adults are expected to be heroic and responsible, while the children’s heroism is seen as exceptional because it “shouldn’t be their responsibility" ([27:19]).

  • Why, Prof. Womble asks, should children be fighting wars while adults fail to shield them? And yet, the narrative only spotlights children-of-the-good-side as battlefield participants—an absence of "Death Eater children" that is telling.

  • Quote (Prof. Womble):

    “There is a world in which we are expecting children to do adult tasks. ... They should not be responsible for the things that they are seemingly responsible for.” ([29:21])

• Privilege, Trauma, and Heroic Choices:
  The discussion also touches on character arcs, privilege, and trauma—with Neville’s journey serving as a prime example.

  • Quote (Affinti, Listener):

    “It was outrageous they didn’t have [the St. Mungo’s scene] in the film. ... His arc is also significant—that he can get to the Battle of Hogwarts and not be afraid ... is extraordinary.” ([26:30])

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3. Heroism and Choice: Destiny, Consent, and Reluctant Heroes

Timestamps: [34:20] – [42:10]

• Destiny vs. Agency:
  The next thematic thread explores whether heroism is a choice, something thrust upon characters, or both.

  • Quote (Marche, Listener):

    “Are they heroes because they choose to fight in spite of how their families were torn apart? Or ... because it was thrust upon them after having their families being targeted?” ([34:55])

  • Quote (Laurian, Listener):

    “I think it’s both. It was thrust upon them, but then they chose to step up and embrace the role ... knowing the worst that could happen.” ([35:22])

• Harry vs. Neville:
  Prof. Womble expounds on different models of heroism:

  • Neville’s transformation, driven by personal decisions and overcoming insecurities, earned through choice.
  • Harry’s narrative, cast by prophecy and external forces, with less agency—though choices still matter.
  • Quote (Prof. Womble):

    “There are different kinds of heroes ... There are people who choose to be heroes. There are people who have heroism thrust upon them by virtue of a war ... the reluctant hero, the person who has to do it because if they don't, XYZ is gonna happen.” ([37:50])

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4. Productive Failure and Subjectivity in Defining Heroism

Timestamps: [42:10] – [49:12]

• Community Disagreement as a Kind of Success:
  Despite not arriving at a consensus definition, Prof. Womble reframes the “failure” as instructive.

  • Quote (Prof. Womble):

    “In our inability as a community to come up with a definition of heroism, we also arrive at heroism, which is to say that we’re talking about something that’s outlandishly multifaceted, that is contextual, that is circumstantial ... and in that is heroism.” ([43:05])

• Societal and Personal Influences:
  The bar for heroism is influenced by society, expectation, literary framing, and personal experience—hence, every reader and listener might draw the line differently.

  • Prof. Womble muses on the axiom "never meet your heroes," discussing how recognizing the humanity and imperfections of those we admire reveals the complexities of heroism.

• Heroism on "the Other Side":
  The episode closes with a critical reminder that even villains—whether Bellatrix Lestrange or Lucius Malfoy—are “heroes” to someone else, and that these perspectives are frighteningly familiar or even relatable in their logic.

  • Quote (Prof. Womble):

    “To Bellatrix Lestrange, Voldiva Volzadi is a hero. ... there is a way that she looks at him and says, that's my guy. He's fighting. Because we ... are victims. And there's something oddly, terrifyingly familiar about that mentality.” ([45:55])

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5. Socialization, Literary Framing, and the Power of Nuance

Timestamps: [49:12] – [55:20]

• Influence of the Text:
  J.K. Rowling’s writing nudges the reader toward accepting certain characters as heroes, while minimizing or ignoring other acts of heroism (e.g., Dobby and Neville early in the series). Prof. Womble identifies how we, as readers, are socialized to privilege certain narratives and over-simplify others.

  • Quote (Prof. Womble):

    “It’s not until Dumbledore highlights the bravery that it took for Neville to stand up to Harry, Ron and Hermione that I, at least when I first read it, appreciated it and saw it as brave. Because in the moment, I thought it was annoying.” ([50:13])

• Celebrating Nuance and Multiplicity:
  The quest for a uniform definition is, in the end, less important than the shared exploration and the development of more nuanced personal frameworks.

  • Quote (Prof. Womble, playfully):

    “It’s not lost on me that you all are now not feeling it, because somehow we couldn’t come up with a definition for hero when you all are always the ones demanding nuance from me. Now we have it, and you’re not happy. There’s no pleasing y’all.” ([53:35])

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Memorable Quotes

• On the value of being read aloud:

  “I’m hearing that having your thoughts read out loud is better than sex ... I’m not saying that it is. I wouldn’t even begin to do that. But someone said it and I said it before and I quoted them.” ([03:20])

• On productive community tension:

  “We love consensus ... and we never get it. Some of that is because the chaos goblins are afoot, but some of it is because that’s simply just not the way that it works.” ([20:20])

• On responsibility and expectations:

  “Is it heroism when you’re an adult? When I believe you should just be doing this to begin with ... Like, Hogwarts is falling. You should be there. Why are children fighting in this war?” ([29:21])

• On the impossibility of consensus:

  “What we did here is ... the beautiful thing about this podcast, which is we tried to come together and create something that was cohesive and in so doing, created a tapestry where we all can see and understand our own definitions as being representative of things.” ([53:00])

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Notable Moments

• Prof. Womble’s book & “Cormac McCwacken” joke:
  A light-hearted interlude about the upcoming book release, the pre-order excitement, and the loss of a “duck-shaped whiff of smoke” on the cover that was named “Cormac McCwacken.” ([11:45])

• Encouragement for Participation:
  Prof. Womble repeatedly invites listeners to fill out surveys and participate in the post-episode chat:

  “Do not dilly, don’t dally, don’t delay. Just do the writing.” ([04:29])
  “You don’t need to know all of these episodes to know what you think about that guy. ... He’s the freaking ... the titular character.” ([07:30])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Intro and ongoing survey hype: [01:34] – [07:45]
• Book news, Patreon, community update: [07:45] – [12:19]
• Reflection on identity, community, and responsibility: [12:19] – [16:19]
• Main heroism discussion (definitions): [16:19] – [22:45]
• Blood status, age, and responsibility: [22:45] – [34:20]
• Choice, consent, and reluctant heroes: [34:20] – [42:10]
• Productive failure and subjectivity: [42:10] – [49:12]
• Textual framing and nuance: [49:12] – [55:20]

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Conclusion

Prof. Womble’s episode underscores the impossibility—and, in fact, the unnecessary nature—of collectively defining heroism in a rigid way. Heroism, in the world of Harry Potter and beyond, is shown to be subjective, multifaceted, and deeply context-dependent. The conversation is left open-ended, priming listeners for a lively exploration of Harry Potter as the "titular hero," and the many complicated, unresolved questions his story raises.

Prof. Womble’s parting words remind the community of the goal: not to enforce uniformity, but to empower each person to refine and deepen their own critical understanding—staying “critical and magical” together.

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Transcript

[Tim]

I'm here on a job site with Tim, who owns his own electrical contracting business. Three employees and two work trucks. Tim traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance. We're positively here where he needs us most. They sure are. With step by step help on all his insurance needs. All for shockingly low rates. Shockingly low, huh? Just a little bit of electrician humor. Do you get it?

[Professor Julian Womble]

I got it.

[Tim]

You know, it feels like we have a real connection. Alright, I'll stop, get a commercial auto insurance quote [e-mail] and see how much you could save. It feels good. To geico.

[Professor Julian Womble]

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[Tim]

I'm here on a job site with Tim, who owns his own electrical contracting business. Three employees and two work trucks. Tim traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance. We're positively here where he needs us most. They sure are. With step by step help on all his insurance needs. All for shockingly low rates. Shockingly low, huh? Just a little bit of electrician humor. Do you get it?

[Professor Julian Womble]

I got it.

[Tim]

You know, it feels like we have a real connection. Alright, I'll stop, get a commercial auto insurance quote [e-mail] and see how much you could save. It feels good. To geico.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Welcome to Critical Magic Theory where we deconstruct the wizarding world of Harry Potter. Because loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it. I'm Professor Julian Womble and today. Oh, today is our Prof. Response episode on our conversation surrounding Heroes and Half Bloods, y'. All. You do it to me every time. And I. I try to pretend to be surprised and sometimes I am and sometimes I'm not. And I just am so grateful to you all for engaging in this conversation, for giving our friends and our colleagues more time with the Harry Potter surveys which are out about and all around. It will be attached to this episode. It is in the links on my bio on social media. Roff. Nope, that's not right. Prof.JW on Instagram, ProfW on TikTok. It's everywhere. It's on the website criticalmagictheory.com patreon.com criticalmagic theory I'm going to be posting it again on Sunday to get your thoughts to remind you to do it. Many of us have been writing essays. Many of us have been asking when it's due. I'm going to record the episode next Monday, so I need your responses in by Sunday at the very latest so that we can have a full conversation. So if you want to share your thoughts on Harry Potter, we are somewhere upwards of 400 people at this point. If you want your thoughts known, if you want them recognized, if you want the possibility of them being read, apparently I'm hearing, okay, listen, lean in close friends. I'm hearing that having your thoughts read out loud is better than sex. I'm not saying that it is. I wouldn't even begin to do that. But someone said it and I said it before and I quoted them. And I don't know that you all were paying attention and maybe you all were being judgy. I don't know your story, I don't know your song. But what I do know is that I'm hearing rumors. If you are interested in finding out whether or not that's true, your opportunity comes in the form of filling out that survey. Do not dilly, don't dally, don't delay. Just do the writing. Part of what makes me so excited about doing this episode is that we really got into the nitty gritty of heroism. And I think when we think about Harry, obviously he's the hero of the text. And I want us to go in with our eyes wide open about what that means for. For who he is, how we understand his heroism, and whether or not we think he's a hero. Now, the conversation that has been happening on the Discord has really been some are saying incendiary about the question of whether Harry is a hero. Now, I know that some of us just heard that and said, if he's not a hero, who is? Look, y', all, all I do is pass the message. All I do is offer some insights into what other people are saying. I give you some. Yes. No, don't know. Percent is. I'm not in charge of what people think, friends. That's not my story. But what I do know is that I've been looking at the stats and the question as to whether Harry is a hero is not 100%. Okay? So now what you all do with that information, that's your story. There's a lot of stories going on today, and I don't know what that's about, but that's your business. What I know for certain and what I know for sure is that I'm looking at whether Harry is a hero and a not inconsequential number of us have said no. Okay, this is what I'm saying. If you disagree with that and you have not filled out your Harry Potter survey, friends, you can't complain if your voice isn't counted. You can't complain if we don't know. All's I'm saying is that the opportunity is here for you. I have extended out the conversation surrounding all of these things for the purposes of having you get the time. But anyways, it's time to bop. And the bop is coming in three, in two, in one. Let's bop. We need to talk about Harry Potter. I hope you danced. As always. Welcome back. Welcome to those of you who are joining us for the first time, to those of you who have been here since the first day, those of you who have been catching up and are now caught up, welcome. Thank you all for your patience. I know that everyone is biding their time for the Harry Potter episodes. I get it. I totally understand. And I can't wait for us to get there. I also want us all to be able to get there together. And in the midst of the crazy times that we're living in with life and politics and social unrest and all the things and all the spaces and all the places, I recognize that many of us are finding ourselves in a place where listening to a podcast is not the top of our priority list. And I completely and utterly understand that. And so for those of you who are catching up, I don't want you to feel any pressure. I don't want you to feel any ways about catching up and writing in the post episode chat or dming me what hello or dming me about past episodes. I am just excited that you're still here. And I'm so grateful for you all taking the time out of your days to listen to me rant, rave, and do whatever it is that I do on any given episode. I'm so grateful to you for your presence, for your voices, for your attentiveness. And I don't take it for granted. And so this is not the kind of thing. This is not a class. It might feel like a class some days when I'm ranting and raving, but attendance is appreciated, not mandatory. And so I thank you all so much. And I really want us to be in attendance together for the Harry Potter episodes and I know that for some of us, that's gonna be less of a thing because we're not caught up. And many of us are like, we need to be locked in for it. I will say, and maybe this is breaking the rules. I don't even know. But if you find yourself in a space where you really want to listen to the Harry Potter episodes, and I don't know why I'm saying this to you all, if you're listening to this episode, you're clearly not. You're either caught up, you are skipping ahead as you see fit. But either way, just in case, if you want to skip ahead to the Harry Potter episodes and then jump back, that's totally fine. No one's going to judge you because we are community here. And so I'm excited for you all to be with us fully. Also, like, if you're not caught up and you want to fill out the survey, still fill it out. I know you have thoughts on Harry. You don't need to know all of these episodes to know what you think about that guy. He's the freaking. Hello. The titular character. So I want you all to not feel so stressed. I know that some of us are constantly, like, feeling like you're behind. You're not behind. You're going at your own pace. This podcast is going to be here for you on the days where you're up to date. On the days you're not. Do not worry about that. Speaking of. Okay, this is a little bit of tea, okay? But I had a meeting today with my editor and the PR team at Ulysses Press, which is publishing my book. And rumors are circulating, the wind is blowing, the owls are flying in and saying that the pre order code is going to drop next week. And I told them, I said, how fortuitous, because we are going to be releasing the first of our four Harry Potter episodes. And they were excited at the prospect of it. And I'm excited because the book is good. I'm in the midst of editing the proofs right now, and I'm actually shaken. I know I wrote it, but there are moments where I'm like, oh, wait, but you're actually cooking with this. And the meeting was so exciting. And there are a lot of really fun things cooking up. Cooking up. There are a lot of really fun things cooking up. There are a lot of really fun things being cooked up. You knew what I meant. I fixed it because some of you are sticklers and I just really don't want you to be mad at me. Here's the thing. I'm so excited about this and I'm really hopeful that you all will buy it. And the price point is what I think it's 1999 USD, so if you live in Europe, it's cheaper for you than it is for those of us who live in the United States. In other parts of the world, it might be more expensive. However, simultaneously, concurrently, and I can promise you that it will be worth it. I put a lot of work into this and I took a lot of what we have talked about in the conversations that we have had as a community and brought them into this book. And for that I'm outrageously thankful. But not but. And I want you all to be a part of this journey. I'm figuring out some things that we can do as a community once the book comes out. It's set to come out again in December. December 1st is when it drops. And so if you have any ideas, like, let me know. Also, as we move into the summer, once we're done with Harry, we're gonna take some time away from our characters. And so this Sunday, I'm going to be dropping in the Patreon a conversation about what other topics you would want me to talk about that I can batch record and we can kind of chat about. It can be anything, honestly. We've talked about classes, we are talking about heroes. We've talked about any number of things. There are some characters that we haven't discussed. There are some topics that we haven't unpacked. This is the moment. This is the time. I'm totally down for whatever you all are thinking. Please let me know. I'm excited at the prospect of doing this. Before we move back into our next kind of. I don't know if season's the right word, but our discussion, our character deep dives where we are going to begin our conversation about Muggle Borns with the one and only Lily Potter, Nay Evans. Okay, but anyways, get everything prepared. When the pre order drops the link, you will have it. You will be among the first to have it. And I can't wait for that. And I can't wait for you all to see. I think I might do like a cover, a cover reveal on Patreon this week because the COVID looks good. Now I will say, and this is important. So gather around and listen close. There were earlier iterations of the COVID In said earlier iterations, there was a whiff of smoke that looked like a duck. That duck was affectionately christened Cormac McCwacken. In the final version of the COVID Cormac McCwacken didn't make it and I didn't think I was going to get emotional about this, but, you know, it's okay. I will do the COVID reveal. I think that that's what Cormac McClachen would have wanted. And it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. Friends. Anyways, I have dillied and I have dallied and I have delayed and it is time for us to get into this conversation about heroism. So I'm going to pull myself together, I'm going to play some music and we are going to get into it. Okay? We're gonna get in. That is what Cormac McClachen would have wanted. So that's what we're gonna do.

[Tim]

I'm here on a job site with Tim, who owns his own electrical contracting business. Three employees and two work trucks. Tim traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance. We're positively here where he needs us most. They sure are. With step by step help on all his insurance needs. All for shockingly low rates. Shockingly low, huh? Just a little bit of electrician humor. Do you get it?

[Professor Julian Womble]

I got it.

[Tim]

You know, it feels like we have a real connection. All right, I'll stop. Get a commercial auto insurance quote [e-mail] and see how much you could save. It feels good to Geico. Dish has been connecting communities like yours for the last 45 years, providing the TV you love at a price you can trust. Watch live sports news and the latest movies, plus your favorite streaming apps all in one place. Switch to Dish today and lock in the lowest price in satellite TV starting at $89.99 a month with our two year price guarantee. Call 888-add-H Dish or visit Dish Do.

[Professor Julian Womble]

So the first theme that came up in our conversation in the post episode chat was one that is really born out of a frustration about our difficulty in defining what it means to be a hero. Jazz wrote. So all that work and debate to come up with a definition was bogus after all. Cool. Cool. No. But I think the reflection about how context is important and how the stakes slash skin in the game aspects of things does vary sometimes quite significantly from character to character. And so actually trying to come up with one definition or one box that someone has to fit into in order to be a hero is ultimately quite unhelpful. Is quite an unhelpful way to think about it. There is so much nuance surrounding all of these characters and their individual circumstances. But then I do also see that some people have to come up with a definition of sorts for themselves and are sticking to it for the purposes of the surveys for this podcast. And I get that and respect that too. Sigh. The work is good to do, but it's never easy, friends. At least it always makes for a good debate and discussion. Harry's episodes are going to be wild. You don't know the half of it because people are playing games in the survey. Chaos Goblins reign supreme. It's my new hit single. It's called Chaos Goblins. You heard it here first. You can also pre order that next Wednesday. Oh man. This is why I shouldn't record these episodes so late, because I'm not all the way present mentally. Kim C Wrote, it seems like a lot of people are crediting or modifying their definitions of hero and heroism based off how many people it excludes. And as in the definition can't include too many people, so it may have to be adjusted to be more exclusive. Why? First of all, that's not a great way to approach a definition. But also, why do heroes have to be rare? Why can't we be living in a world where heroism is easy? Why can't we be living lives surrounded by heroes? Why isn't just getting up every day and doing your best to be kind and make the world a better place an act of heroism? Why aren't people who are always trying to be their best selves heroes? When we try to make heroism hyper exclusive, we are creating a world where the narrative is what do you think makes you a hero? Why not create a world where the narrative is why aren't you a hero? Why shouldn't it be inclusive and achievable? Why shouldn't the bar be lower? Why shouldn't we be stigmatizing people who refuse to meet that bar instead of criticizing people who we decide are unfairly claiming the title or being given it by others? Emily H. Wrote, after listening to the episode, I think my definition for a heroic act, something done for the betterment of others at risk to oneself, hasn't really shifted. But I do think I care less about motivation intent than I thought I did going into the episode. I don't think I actually have given that aspect much thought prior to now, though. I thought I gave it more weight. It's my turn. Here's the thing. I think it is so fascinating because what Jaz and Kim and Emily highlight is the difficulty of this, right? Which is the fact that, yes, like we all walk in with a very clear understanding at Least in part of what we believe or who we believe heroes are. There's this understanding that in order to be a hero, you have to meet XYZ Bar. And I think it's fascinating, and I love the questions that Kim invites us to consider, which is, why does the bar have to be so high? Why can't everyone be a hero? And I wonder if the idea is, like, if everyone heroes, then no one's a hero. But in a world where everyone is going to war, like, how do we reconcile that? And the reality is that everyone isn't fighting the war? And does making the distinction make our definition stronger? Does exclusivity drive something that makes it better and make us more discerning? Or is it simply that it feels unfair to the people who we consider to be heroes, who meet our own individual definitions, that they are then lumped in with other people? And I think, you know, and I'm gonna talk about this a little bit more in the reflection for this episode, but I think that there's a world in which, you know, some of the definitions that we arrive at are really with specific characters in mind. Like, we know who the heroes are, and we know who the people who aren't heroes are. And when we start to add in the nuances of, are you a hero? Are you just a person who is doing heroic acts? I think we tap into something that goes beyond the scope of how we generally understand it. And there's a world in which I think that matters in an important way, because I think I love the way that the questions are set up. And I'm going to talk about a little bit more about the kind of methodology of the questions that I ask and the reflection. But I think when you. When I ask you, is this person a hero? Yes. No. Don't know. There is an immediate answer that comes to your mind for most of us, right? Some of us may say, well, you know, it depends, and blah, blah, blah. But I do think that there is a way that, like, we know who our heroes are, and then what we do is we retroactively create a definition and create a bar. But I do love the question of why is it that our definition has to be so strict? And the other thing that I'm thinking about is, like, we hear the word hero a lot in the real world. We hear it describing many, many, many people for many, many, many different things. And I'm wondering why it is that in the context of this text, we find ourselves to be much more stringent in who we are that title, too. Because the reality is, is that there are a lot of heroic acts. And what wasn't established for us is really how we make the distinction between a person who does heroic acts and someone who is a hero and why those titles exist the way they do. And maybe we'll never arrive at a definition, and maybe we were never meant to. Hmm, am I tricky? Perhaps I am. Am I false? Also possible, I think, that there is a world where defining some of these things is very, very hard. And the girlies on Instagram, not Instagram, on Discord, have been going back and forth about this, because I think one of the beautiful things about our community is that we love consensus, which is why many of us are looking for, you know, 100% definition or 100% agreement on certain characters for certain questions, and we never get it. Some of that is because the chaos goblins are afoot, but some of it is because that's simply just not the way that it works. And there is such a subjectivity to the idea of some of these things. And so that when we think about what it means to be a hero and how we define what it means to be a hero, I think maybe the question isn't is this person a hero? But rather, why wouldn't they be a hero? I often say sometimes I don't know what's going on, or I don't know who you are, but I know who you're not. And I'm wondering if that's a better way for us to approach this, not for the sake of creating collectivism in terms of our definition, but maybe so that our own individual criterion can be stronger moving forward. Although we're kind of at the tail end of it, but we're going to come back and circle back and close the loop for some of these characters anyway. So I feel like it's better for us to individually create and have a better understanding of how these definitions work for us. For the second theme, I kind of threw a wrench in our plans a little bit when I asked the question of whether or not it was easier for Pure Bloods to be seen as heroic relative to those individuals of different blood statuses. And I think part of the reason why I came to that conclusion was because if we go back and we look at who we named heroes, I'm pretty sure that there were more people who had been given the title of hero in Pure Bloods than people who were half blood. We can look at that more closely. I'm pretty sure that that's the case and so it's interesting because I think a lot of us were kind of shook by that particular question and Marsha had something very interesting to say. Writing One thing I find really interesting is how differently we treat accountability, depending on both and blood status. For Pure Blood heroes, we often give younger characters a lot of grace because they have less to lose and are still learning, while someone like Sirius is judged much more harshly. But with Half Blood characters it often feels like the opposite. The adults are held to a much higher standard than the children because they're older, should know better and have more at stake. It's an interesting pattern that I'd never really thought about before. Something else I'm wondering about is whether this says something about how we even define heroism in the series. Neville is often held up as heroic as a heroic ideal at 17, and we tend to give him a great deal of grace because of his age. By contrast, Ciri has sacrificed an enormous amount for Harry, yet fandom and readers are often much less forgiving of his mistakes, such as his impulsive decision to go after Peter after James and Lily died. On the Half Blood side, Dean is often praised for joining the Battle of Hogwarts despite having a perfectly reasonable avenue for escape. As a presumed Muggle born, he can have disappeared into the Muggle world and few people would have blamed him. Yet we don't tend to extend the same grace to Lupin when he falters. In fact, many readers argue that we shouldn't, but as because as an adult he has greater responsibilities and a clearer understanding of the consequences of his actions. It makes me wonder whether we view the children's heroism differently from the adults. Are the younger characters actually better examples of courage and moral goodness? Or are we simply more willing to celebrate heroism in children while scrutinizing it more heavily in adults? Is our standard for being a hero fundamentally different depending on age? My goodness, Affinti wrote. I'm not sure it was necessarily easier for King Neville to be heroic. He sees his parents minds totally destroyed by Voldy and that kind of cruelty is hideous. It could easily have happened to him too, and I don't think we should underestimate the weight of that. Apropos, it was outrageous. They didn't have that scene in the film. Incredibly moving, truly. But he does certainly recognize that he can use his privilege for others, being a child who started off being a little timid. His arc is also significant that he can get to the to the Battle of Hogwarts and not be afraid of the Cruciatus Curse Slash of literally losing his own mind is extraordinary. I think Ginny was at risk of being killed in Chamber Edit nearly died till Harry showed up. So there's no guarantee that she wouldn't suffer in her sixth year, Lorian wrote, I think we definitely do, and I personally think that's right. Heroism isn't one size fits all. Context is really important, and I have much higher expectations of adults than I do of kids. And I also acknowledge it's harder for people like Draco to overcome his conditioning and his reality. It's my turn. Here is the thing. I think that when we read these books, there is a world in which we understand responsibility in a very specific way. And a lot of that is aged right. Like, we expect adults to have a much greater responsibility. And I think that a lot of that comes because many of us are at this point in our lives where we are adult people. And one of the big things that I've experienced in revisiting these books through a more critical lens, both when I teach my class, but also for this podcast, is I'm always like, what the hell are the adults doing? Where are they? What's going on? Like, you should be there. You should be doing this. Not only should you know better, but why are you letting these kids get away with doing all of these things? They should not be responsible for the things that they are seemingly responsible for. There is a world in which we are expecting children to do adult tasks. And I think that that expectation for me, and I'll speak for myself in this, leads me to be much more critical of what adults are doing. Because I'm like, is it heroism when you're an adult? When I believe you should just be doing this to begin with, Like, Hogwarts is falling. You should be there. Like, why are children fighting in this war? And what's crazy is that, like, we only see children fighting on the side of good. Like, there are no Death Eater children. There are no, like, people on the other side. Like even the Slytherins, who. People malign in the books, you know, have them thrown in the. Not the books, the movies have them thrown into the dungeon and blah, blah, blah. They're not fighting. We see Crabbe and Goyle and we see the Fiendfire moment in the Room of Requirement. Yes, but in many ways that's different. That's kind of set apart from the battle itself. The only people that we see engaging in true, like, villainous behavior is, are adults. And that tells us a story. Right? And I think that there is a World in which, like, we do experience the children differently and especially Harry and his comrades. Because it's like, there is, I think, at least for me, a voice in the back of my mind that's like, this isn't your responsibility. Like, even Harry, right? And we're gonna. Obviously, this isn't a Harry Potter episode. We will get to a Harry Potter episode. But, like, there is a world in which I'm like, this isn't your responsibility. You are a child. Like, you literally can't do magic outside of your home. And now all of a sudden you're fighting the darkest wizard of the age. That's crazy. And the idea that we are navigating and having to deal with a world where children are and not. Not even children are children have to be the heroes. I think part of how we're arriving at heroism as it pertains to age is one of the contextual factors that we're considering is like, you shouldn't have to do this. Where are the adults? Why is this being placed on your lap? Why are three children running around the countryside trying to find the horcruxes of a madman? Where are the adults? Why is it that Dumbledore left. It's in the. In the hands of children. Why is it that the people who we see fighting are. Tend to be children? Why is it that the idea of, like, well, if you're 17, like, you get to just stay and fight because you're technically of wizarding adulthood age, even though, like, y' all just learned how to operate three seconds ago, Right? Like, I think that there a world where we want more from the adults and we expect less from the children. And that those expectations then inform how we understand what heroism looks like and who gets the title of hero. And so that when we think about Harry, I think there's a world where, like, it is important for us to think about the extent to which, like, the way we understand his heroism is colored by the fact that we recognize that he is a child. And from Enron and Hermione and Fred and George and all these, like, all these people. And I mean, obviously at the time of the Battle of Hogwarts, Fred and George are not children by legal standards, but we knew them as kids. And we're still thinking about the question of where are the adults and why aren't they doing this work? And I think that there's something really fascinating about that particular context when it comes to our definitions of hero, because I think that we. I don't think that we can necessarily Consider that in the same way that until last week, I hadn't really considered the role of blood status. Right. And what expectations we have of people based on these contextual identity factors that then inform how we understand what they should and shouldn't be doing and appreciate what they do and don't do. The third theme that we are going to be discussing is one that asks a very simple question. Was it a choice? How do we understand the role of consent in heroism? Marche comes to us again, asking or saying rather. This begs the question that has always plagued me about Harry and Neville. Are they heroes because they choose to fight in spite of how their families were torn apart? Or are they heroes because it was thrust upon them after having their families being targeted by the other side? Laurian returns to us and says, I think it's both. It was thrust upon them, but then they chose to step up and embrace the role, knowing the worst that could happen. It's my turn. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think what is interesting about this and what I love, especially as we think about and prepare for our conversations around Harry, is the question of whether or not one has to decide to be a hero or whether or not one is simply a hero by virtue of being put in certain circumstances and situations. And I think that at the end of the day, what is true for Harry is that, no, no, this is not a Harry Potter episode, and we are not gonna get into that. We're gonna have this conversation later. But what I think is true is that there are contexts in which. And we see this throughout the entirety of the, like, heroic canon, across genres and stories, right? There are different kinds of heroes. There are antiheroes, people who do bad things in order to get good outcomes. There are people who are, you know, who choose to be heroes. There are people who have hero or heroism thrust upon them by virtue of, you know, a war or, you know, a person who has been taken, who they care about or, you know, there's such a subjectivity to the idea of heroism that I think, you know, when we think about Neville and we think about Harry, I think that their heroism is different. I think that they both are heroes in their own rights for different reasons. I think when I think about Neville, who we've already talked about, I think his heroism comes in the fact that not only did he do all of the things that he does, right? But Neville also does it in the face of his own insecurities, in the face of a recognition of what heroism can look like, right? When he goes to St. Mungo's. And he sees his parents and he sees that. And they were brave people who were tortured and lost their minds. And he still decides to do these things. He becomes a hero and makes these decisions in the face of potentially leaving his grandmother with no one. He makes these decisions in the face of a grandmother who pressures him to be what she wants him to be. And in the midst of all of that, in the midst of all of these pressures and all of these confounds and all the things that make his life his life, he decides, I'm going to do what I need to do to protect people that I care about, to invest in myself. And we as readers get the privilege of watching that arc. And what's interesting about Neville is that there aren't that many character arcs in these books. Like, a lot of it is just a flat line that just continues and everyone just gets older. Neville is one of the few characters that we see legitimately change and transform from book one to book seven. And what is true about that transformation is that the circumstances that define him don't really change. It's how he navigates them and the decisions that he makes in the face of them. There comes a moment where he's no longer living for what his gran wants. He starts doing decisions that he wants. Right? The idea that, you know, risking his life now becomes something that his gran is proud of, and he begins to live up to the name of his parents. Right? There is a way that I think Neville's heroism is multifaceted in that the circumstances and the context in which he finds himself are such that he has to make decisions to be a hero. He has to decide, I want to go to the Ministry. He has to decide, I'm going to stand up to Ron, Harry and Hermione. He has to make these decisions left and right. And I think Harry, on the other hand, is in a circumstance where, according to the prophecy, this is preordained. Now, there are obviously decisions that he makes along the way, but his heroism looks different because there is something kind of primordial that exists outside of him that defines some of the choices that he ultimately makes. And I think that that is really important because it creates a very different kind of understanding of who is a hero and who isn't. And perhaps that's why we look at Neville and see a hero in a way that we don't necessarily see the same way for Harry. But I do think that there is a world in which both of these individuals are heroic in their own way. For different reasons. And that matters because when we think about what does it mean to be a hero? I think there's a world where sometimes we think that if you're forced into it, you don't really get to lay claim to it, right? Like that you have to make a decision to be a hero and that you're going to do heroic things. But when I think about, you know, obviously, the Odyssey is coming out. And when I think about Odysseus, all he wanted to do was get home. Everything that he did in the midst of that was all in pursuit of getting home to his wife and his kid. When I think about Heracles, Hercules, you know, you decide which one you like. Like so much of the trials and all the things that he did were preordained. Things that he kind of had to do because he had a stepmother who wasn't really feeling him. All of these stories, right? Like the reluctant hero, the person who has to do it because if they don't, XYZ is gonna happen, right? That there are just so many ways for us to understand what it means to be a hero. And I think that choice does play a big part in that sometimes. I know that some of us are not necessarily as pleased about how much we did not arrive at a definitive definition. Definitive definition of heroism. I know that some of us wanted to feel validated. Maybe we did. Maybe the conversations that we've been having have allowed for us to be able to see our own and understand our own definitions in a more meaningful way. Some of us may not be satisfied at all with the fact that we didn't arrive at anything. And part of this is what I think is something that I would call, like, productive failure. Because we tried as a community to come together, which is silly, because every time we try to define something, we never, ever really come up with a consensus. But it's the thought that counts. But I do think that what's interesting about this, right, is that in our inability as a community to come up with a definition of heroism, we also arrive at heroism, which is to say that we're talking about something that's outlandishly multifaceted, that is contextual, that is circumstantial, that has all of these different pieces. It has choice. It has, you know, questions of free will. It has all of these things. And in that is heroism. And so we have arrived. In our failure to actually come up with an objective definition, we arrive at what I think heroism actually is, which is a whole bunch of stuff. And I'm really struck by Kim's questions about why it is that we feel so compelled to. To make heroism such a high bar to reach. I think a lot about, like, the. The phrase, you know, never meet your heroes. And I think part of it is because you realize when you meet them that they are humans. And I think about the people in my life who I, you know, look up to and aspire to be, at least in part, and people who I think are heroic. And one of those people is Beyonce. Um, not because I think she's, like, you know, oh, well, I do think she's changed the world, but I'm biased. But the thing that gets me about Beyonce, I've seen her in concert a lot. And as a creative person myself, like, whenever I watch her, I often think about the fact that, like, she is at a place in her career where she could literally do whatever she wanted. She could make the same song over and over and over again, and people would buy it. It's me, I'm people. And she doesn't do that. She pushes the bounds of music. And I'm not inviting you to like Beyonce. If she's not your cup of tea, that's totally fine. I'm just sharing my own thought on someone who I believe in my life is like, someone that I see as heroic in a very different sense than, like, fighting in a war or whatever. But for someone who is at. In her position in life to continue to, like, move the bounds of her own gifting for the purposes of just creating art in a world where, like, you can hit a button and someone can just, like, do it very easily, to me, is a heroic feat because you're pushing back against the ease of art, especially when you are a person who occupies the position that she occupies. And so I think of heroism and I think of our ability to kind of try to arrive at a definition for it as this beautiful, productive failure. Some of us arrived at our own definitions and had them and feel them more fully. Some of us are amending them. But I think that when we think about why is it that everyone can't be a hero? I'm sure some of us will have answers for that. But I also think that, like, more than that, why is it that our bar for heroism has to be so high? Why is it that it's so difficult for us to let people be heroic and to call heroism heroic? Why is it, as Kim noted, right. That in a world that is so torn and problematic, that giving someone a smile is a heroic act? Right. That that feels Cliche, but to someone else, that may change the trajectory of their day, their week, their month, we don't know. And I think that that's the thing about heroism, right, is that there's such a subjectivity to the reception of heroism. When I thought about a lot of what we had been talking about, one of the things that really stood out to me is the fact that, like to Bellatrix Lestrange, Voldiva Volzadi is a hero. He's pushing back against the progressivism that exists in the wizarding world that is somehow suggesting that pure blood is not the goal. He's taking magic back from Muggle Borns, who apparently, in their minds at least, stole it. He's pushing back against the strictures that are removing the prestige and power that come along with pure bloodism, pure bloodedness. And so that there is a way that she looks at him and says, that's my guy. He's fighting. Because we are purebloods, are victims. And there's something oddly, terrifyingly familiar about that mentality. So that as we ourselves are defining who's a hero and who isn't, we also have to leave room for the fact that, like, there are people on the other side of this thing who are looking at the thing, the characteristics that we're describing and ascribing them to other people that we don't agree with. People would say, oh, you know, Lucius Malfoy was super brave for putting that diary in Ginny's little cauldron. He could have gotten caught. He didn't. Bravery, Sticking it to the Weasleys. Right. That there is a level of subjectivity and directionality that comes with heroism, and that there are all of these other factors that play in our own expectations of what people should and shouldn't do. How. How could we expect to come to a consensus when what we expect from these children, from the adults in their lives, are all different? And our expectations inform our definitions of heroism? And I also think that some of this is the byproduct of our own socialization. In these books, J.K. rowling invites us to recognize who are heroes and who are not. She gives us the tools, the crumbs, the bread, the bread path. Bread path, the breadcrumbs that make the path. You get what I'm saying? Enough. She gives us the tools to believe that somehow heroism is easily defined and easily understood, that we know it when we see it. And yet the more we think about it, the more it becomes difficult. It's interesting because I think about, dobby Right, Dobby. In Deathly Hallows Hero, many of us were annoyed with Dobby. In Chamber of Secrets, also hero. Here we have an elf who is running around, leaving his master's home. He is still enslaved, risking life and limb, both because if he's found out he will be punished, but also because he is bound to punish himself if he does things certain ways so that he can save the life of a boy he doesn't even know of, a child. That has very little to do with his own lived circumstance. But Dobby's desire for Harry Potter to do good things outweighs all the cost. Even though it's annoying and even though it almost cost Harry his ability to get back to Hogwarts and almost cost Harry his arm and all the. To the point where at the end of Chamber of Secrets, Harry's like, you're free now. Don't ever try to help me again. We don't see all of that behavior as heroic. But when we think about the context, when we think about the position of Dobby in the magical world, when we think about the fact that in that moment he is still very much enslaved, it invites us to really have to think deeply about what it means to be a hero. And I think that there's a way that Dabi is written in that first book when we first meet him in Chamber of Secrets, to not be a hero. Right. J.K. rowling is creating a context in which we understand characters in certain ways. Some of the things we appreciate, some of the things we don't, some of the things we would call heroism, some of the things we don't. It's not until Dumbledore highlights the bravery that it took for Neville to stand up to Harry, Ron and Hermione that I, at least when I first read it, appreciated it and saw it as brave. Because in the moment, I thought it was annoying. I thought he deserved to get the full body bond. Cause I'm like, what are you doing in my way? We have things to do. We gotta get that stone. We don't have time for all of this. And there are many ways in which I think we are socialized by these books to understand heroism and understand sacrifice and understand the stakes of a moment and the circumstances therein. And we are also invited to ignore other confounding factors that define. Define all of those things. And some of that is because obviously we're looking at it through Harry's eyes. And we recognize from the very beginning that Harry is the chosen one. That he is the hero. And so then we juxtapose all of these other feats to Harry's ultimate sacrifice. But at the end of the day, as we think about Harry and we move into our discussions of him, I think what we did here is like the beautiful thing about this podcast, which is we tried to come together and create something that was cohesive and in so doing, created a tapestry where we all can see and understand our own definitions as being representative of things. Because why would we have the same definition of hero? Why would we all come together in a consensus? Our lives and the things that define who we are are not the same. What we think are good and bad are not the same. We can find some consensus on a lot of things, I'm sure, but there's nuance there. And one of the things that you all often highlight, especially when it comes to the question wordings of the yes, no, don't know, is that we're missing nuance. And so it's not lost on me that you all are now not feeling it, because somehow we couldn't come up with a definition for hero when you all are always the ones demanding nuance from me. Now we have it, and you're not happy. There's no pleasing y'. All. There's no pleasing you. I hope you're proud of yourselves. But I think that as we think about Harry, I think the reality is that the goal isn't uniformity. The goal is always to find our own understandings of our own beliefs and believe them more deeply. And now, as we move forward, as we think about Harry, as we unpack the question of whether he's a hero in other questions, I think we have a stronger sense of at least this question, which is going to be chaotic again. I looked at the breakdown. It's given chaos. And I think there's a world in which part of what we are going to have to unpack is how much of our understanding of Harry Potter is our own, how much of it is what was given to us by the text, and how do we reconcile, if indeed that's our desire? How do we reconcile those things? I don't know about you, but I for one am very much looking forward to that. Foreign. This has been another episode of Critical Magic Theory. I'm Professor Julian Womble, and if you like today's episode, first of all, thank you. Please feel free to, like, rate, subscribe and do all the things that one does where pods are cast, y'. All. We did it. I gave you as much time as I could give you to get through and get your Harry Potter things together. We are moving into the Harry Potter of it all next week and I cannot wait. But before that, I want to hear what you all have to say about this, about heroism, about all the things. And so meet me in the post episode chat patreon.com criticalmagictheory the survey is on our website criticalmagictheory.com it is on my social media Prof.JW on Instagram Prof. W on TikTok. You can send me an email at criticalmagic theory gmail.com if you are on the listserv. You will be getting that survey this weekend, y'. All. We're there, we made it and I cannot wait to talk to you all. Until then, be critical and stay magical, my friends. Bye.