The Ends, the Means, and the Man: The Ethics of Severus Snape

Summary

Critical Magic Theory – Episode Summary

Podcast: Critical Magic Theory: An Analytical Harry Potter Podcast
Episode: The Ends, the Means, and the Man: The Ethics of Severus Snape
Date: October 15, 2025
Host: Professor Julian Womble
Summary Prepared By: [Your Name]

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Overview

In the final installment of a trilogy examining Severus Snape, Professor Julian Womble and a co-host (unnamed in transcript) lead a deep-dive into perhaps the most contentious question in the Harry Potter fandom: Is Severus Snape a hero, a villain, or something more complicated? Drawing from listener survey responses and previous discussions, the episode explores Snape’s motivation, heroic acts, villainous traits, and the very nature of redemption, examining how perspective shapes our judgments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting Up the Conversation – Reflection on the Trilogy

• Julian Womble and co-host reflect on their changing understandings of Snape, acknowledging they may not like or agree with every part of him but now better understand why he inspires such passionate defense.
  • "I, for one, ... am walking out of these episodes about Snape with a new understanding. I haven't changed my perspective ... but I do feel like I know him better." (03:13)
• Focus for this episode:
  • Is Snape a hero?
  • Is he a villain?
  • Can he be redeemed?
    (03:31)

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2. Favorite Snape Moment – Revealing Snape’s Emotional Core

• Womble shares their favorite Snape moment: the confrontation with Dumbledore about Harry’s fate.
  • "[Dumbledore reveals] Harry has to die... Snape looks at him and goes, 'So you've been raising him like a pig for slaughter.'" (12:24)
• Significance:
  • Rare moment holding Dumbledore to account.
  • Reveals Snape’s depth: “His entire life has been driven by guilt, grief and a strong emotional attachment to someone who is gone.” (14:22)
  • Clarifies that his actions are motivated not by pure heroism, but by guilt and love for Lily, exposing both his humanity and flaws.
  • “It gives us a glimpse into what drives him. Not the spy, not the teacher, not the Death Eater ... but the man who spent his life trying to make one act of affection undo a lifetime of harm.” (17:45)

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3. Arithmancy Lesson #1: Is Severus Snape a Hero?

Survey Results: 40% yes, 49% no, 11% unsure. (20:34)

• Listener Quotes:
  • “I think Snape did things that were truly heroic, but I don’t think he had the character traits of a hero. That’s why I chose the word anti hero.” (20:45)
  • “He didn’t let [his love for Lily] twist or corrupt him the way it could have. ... Not a villain, but villain-shaped.” (21:23)
  • “He’s somewhere in between.”
  • “Snape with Lily, Joel with Ellie. Love warped by loss.” (22:16, 22:39)

• Womble’s Definition of Heroism:

  • Hero = doing the right thing when you don’t have to, above and beyond self-interest (23:13).
  • Womble struggles to call Snape a hero, seeing his good acts as self-motivated quests for personal absolution rather than true self-sacrifice (24:23–27:44).
  • “...for him to feel better about what he did to Lily, everything he does... is necessary." (24:23)

• On Snape’s Death:

  • Seen as a casualty, not an intentional sacrifice: “Snape did not go to Voldemort to die ... this is not him sacrificing himself for the cause...” (26:41)
  • Womble ultimately sides with uncertainty: “Maybe my answer is, I don’t know. I’m joining the 11%.” (29:38)

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4. Arithmancy Lesson #2: Is Severus Snape a Villain?

Survey Results: 48% yes, 40% no, 12% unsure. (31:06)

• Listener Quotes:
  • “Severus Snape is the slimiest git to ever walk the earth.” (31:08)
  • “Love for one person does not erase contempt or indifference toward all others.” (31:31)
  • “He’s not a villain, but he is villain-shaped. ... There’s something tragic in that.” (32:02)
  • “He could have done more in every instance, and yet he always disappoints.” (32:26)
  • “It’s hard to call someone like that a villain when the system made him what he was.” (32:50)

• Womble’s Analysis:
  • Focuses on perspective: "A hero to whom? A villain to whom?" (33:19)
  • Draws equivalency with other “villains” such as Umbridge and Lockhart—Snape’s targeted cruelty as a teacher cannot be dismissed (33:48–35:24).
    • “What is so clear is he is not the same teacher to certain students as to others, ... a level of intentionality ... we cannot absolve him of that ... it is vile.” (35:15)
  • Challenges fandom’s willingness to let later reveals in Snape’s story color previous harmful behavior.
  • “He is certainly a villain to more people than he is a hero.” (38:08)
  • Especially as an educator, Womble is adamant: “...I struggle with the idea that he could ever be anything other than a villain when he allowed his own problems to dictate the way children were treated when put in his care.” (41:19)

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5. Arithmancy Lesson #3: Did Severus Snape Redeem Himself?

Survey Results: 60% no, 26% yes, 14% unsure. (43:36)

• Listener Quotes:
  • “I said yes. But I really mean in terms of what happened with Lily and Harry... had he not been Lily’s son ... Snape wouldn’t have given a rat’s ass about what happened to him.” (43:49)
  • “Redemption is engaging in compensating acts. Absolution is no longer carrying the responsibility for your actions. ... I think Snape redeemed himself, but I don't think he absolved himself.” – Kimberly (44:28)
  • “He did more than anyone ... to defeat Voldemort, but we can debate ... his choice, but he still made it and followed it through. ... Here we have the right choice, but possibly for the wrong reasons.” (44:48)
  • “If Snape actually felt any remorse ... he would have shown it in all areas of his life. ... The way he continually bullied and abused literal children ... shows he had no remorse for his choices.” (45:24)
  • “He wanted to bring Voldaddy down, but ... not because he doesn’t reflect the supremacist beliefs, but because he murdered the love of his life ... I do not think Snape is redeemable, but I understand why people do, because it’s written that way.” (46:00)

• Redemption vs Absolution – The “Pink Underwear” Metaphor:
  • Womble echoes Kimberly’s metaphor: Snape never “replaces the underwear” (fully owns or undoes his harm), just hides it.
    • “He doesn’t even admit that he turned them pink. He just stops doing the laundry altogether so he won’t mess up anything else ... to me, that’s not redemption, it’s avoidance. That’s self-protection dressed up as penance.” (49:09)
  • Snape’s good acts are in secret; the people he hurts don’t see it, and he never owns up personally—especially to Harry.
  • “Snape doesn’t try to make things right. He just tries to make sure that no one can see what went wrong.” (52:35)
  • Conclusion: Womble does not see Snape as redeemed, arguing that true redemption requires both confession and restitution to the wronged parties—something Snape never does.

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6. Reflection: The Broader Meaning of Heroism, Villainy, and Snape’s Ethics

• Morality and Perspective:

  • The binary of “hero” and “villain” is simplistic; most people (including Snape) dwell in shades of grey.
    • “What if [goodness is] not [simple]? Even the most basic ethical questions undo that neatness.” (56:02)
  • Society (and Hogwarts houses) teaches us to value simple categories, but “The line between hero and villain is a story we draw—not the truth we live.” (72:46)
  • Heroism is defined more by perspective (“hero/villain to whom?”) than actions alone.
    • “Heroism and villainy are two sides of the same coin, minted by perspective and time.” (73:14)

• The Power of Narrative and Headcanon:

  • We tend to revise our understanding with new context (e.g., “The Prince’s Tale”), excusing or softening what came before.
  • “...Perspective informs the narrative that we are presented with ... what we then do with that narrative based on that information.” (62:51)
  • We’re more forgiving of a redemption arc than of a fall from grace.

• Never Meet Your Heroes:

  • Disappointment is inevitable when the reality of people (or characters or authors) doesn’t match the heroic narrative we've built for them.
    • “...Never meet your heroes, because heroes almost never look heroic up close, because they are human, flawed and scared and sometimes selfish. ... What you lose is the illusion of perfection.” (64:16)
  • Womble draws parallels to real-world figures, including J.K. Rowling and parental figures, underscoring that idealization masks complexity and disappointment.

• Real-World Parallels:

  • “He is the perfect reflection of a world that rewards effectiveness over empathy. ... that forgives cruelty when it delivers results.” (74:21)
  • In both the wizarding and real world, those seen as heroes in one context are regularly villainized in another—morality is always a negotiated perspective, never absolute (75:06).
  • “Heroism isn’t purity, it’s perspective.” (76:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Heroism:
  • “I can recognize that someone has done heroic acts and still not like them. ... I can even recognize that they are a hero and still judge the cost of their choices.” – Professor Womble (60:49)
• On Snape’s Humanity and Motivation:
  • “It’s about trying to find some sense of forgiveness, absolution, redemption for the person that you truly cared about and maybe the only person you've ever really cared about by protecting the only thing that exists of her still on the earthly plane.” – Co-host (18:07)
• On Never Meeting Your Heroes:
  • “Because heroes almost never look heroic up close because they are human, flawed and scared and sometimes selfish ... either they become more heroic because you understand the things that they were up against, or they might become less heroic because you finally see the harm they caused. Either way, what you lose is the illusion of perfection.” – Professor Womble (64:16)
• On Redemption (the Underwear Metaphor):
  • “Snape never replaces the underwear. He doesn’t even admit that he turned them pink. ... That’s not redemption, it’s avoidance.” – Professor Womble (49:09)
• On Pragmatism Over Empathy:
  • “He is the perfect reflection of a world that rewards effectiveness over empathy. A world that forgives cruelty when it delivers results. A world that confuses purpose with goodness. And that is not fiction. That’s real.” – Professor Womble (74:21)

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Major Timestamps

• 03:13: Host reflects on Snape trilogy journey
• 12:24: Snape confronts Dumbledore about Harry being a “pig for slaughter”
• 20:34: Poll results: Is Snape a hero?
• 21:23: Listener on Snape’s anti-hero status
• 31:06: Poll results: Is Snape a villain?
• 35:15: Womble compares Snape and Umbridge as abusive teachers
• 43:36: Poll results: Is Snape redeemed?
• 44:28: Kimberly’s redemption/absolution metaphor
• 49:09: “Pink underwear” metaphor for redemption
• 56:02: Reflection on the complexity of “goodness”
• 64:16: “Never meet your heroes” and loss of idealism
• 72:46: “The line between hero and villain is a story we draw”
• 74:21: Snape as a mirror for society's moral trade-offs
• 76:06: The nature of heroism as perspective, not purity

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Tone & Style

• Engaging, humorous, deeply analytical; Womble is candid, self-reflective, and sharply critical but open to evolving views. Language is accessible but intellectually rigorous, with frequent callbacks to listener perspectives and popular culture comparisons.
• The episode encourages ambiguity (“I don’t know” as a viable position) and models respectful disagreement; participants are encouraged to bring their open, critical selves to further conversation.

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Conclusion

This episode provides a fittingly complex conclusion to Critical Magic Theory’s exploration of Severus Snape. Through candid self-reflection, community input, and sharp ethical analysis, Professor Julian Womble illustrates that questions of heroism, villainy, and redemption—whether in fiction or real life—rarely have neat answers. Instead, the discussion challenges listeners to embrace the “messiness and contradiction” inherent not only in Snape, but in all the stories and people we choose to call heroes.

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Engage Further:

• Join the post-episode chat on Patreon for deeper discussion
• Next trilogy will focus on Albus Dumbledore; listener thoughts are encouraged

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Transcript

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[Professor Julian Womble]

Oatmeal.

[Sarah]

So long, you strange soggy.

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[Professor Julian Womble]

Welcome to Critical Magic Theory, where we deconstruct the Wizarding World of Harry Potter. Because loving something doesn't mean we can't be critical of it. I'm Professor Julian Womble, and today is.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

The last episode in our Severus Snape trilogy, y'. All.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We made it. We made it to the end. We did it. We survived.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

We have not left the community.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We have fought, we have squabbled. We have agreed. We've had our minds changed. We've had our eyes opened. I, for one, have to say that I'm walking out of these episodes about Snape with a new understanding. I haven't changed my perspective on him, as you will see throughout some of this episode. However, I do feel like I know him better.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And what's more is I feel like.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I understand why his defenders defend him the way that they do. And honestly, that's progress because frankly, that wasn't always the case before. And now I feel like we all understand each other better.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And what's more, and what we're going.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To talk about a little bit more in this episode and in the Prof. Response episode is I think we understand ourselves a little bit better. And I think that Snape does a lot of work in kind of inviting us to think about these things. And today we're diving deeper. There are two more questions that we hadn't talked about and then I added a third one for the end because chaos. And I'm so excited because I think that there is a way that this will really sum up a lot of our journey with Severus Snape.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And there's a way that we kind of can just, I don't know, like.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It just feels like the perfect ending.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Have you ever wondered, does doing a heroic thing automatically make someone good? Or if a villain can still be.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Right even when their methods are wrong?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Or what does it really take for.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Someone to be redeemed, absolved or forgiven?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Y', all, we are getting into every.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Bit of it today for this final full episode on Severus Snape.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

You all have brought so much to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Bear and I cannot wait because the questions of whether or not he's a hero, whether or not he's a villain.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Whether or not he's redeemed are the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Questions that we are tackling today. And child, the answers that we are going to be diving into because we're only focusing on the three questions.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I'm going to be drawing more from.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Your open ended responses than I normally do and I cannot wait because I feel like this is really going to be a very rich and meaningful discussion and I cannot wait until we get into the post episode chat. But before we do any of that, see I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm getting ahead of myself because this is not. This is our penultimate. Bop bop. And it's time.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

In three, in two, in one. Let's bop.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We need to talk about Harry Potter. Sa welcome back everyone.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I hope you danced.

[Professor Julian Womble]

For those of you who are just joining us for the first time, who are joining us after catching up, who have been with us for the whole time and are up to date, welcome. I am so excited that we have.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Been on this journey for I guess.

[Professor Julian Womble]

This is our fifth week on Severus Snape and I don't know about you, but I was worried about the journey and I'm actually very pleased that we did it this way. To that end, I cannot wait to see what we come up with in the post episode chat. So if you have not joined us on Patreon yet, you can do so for free and join us for the post episode chat patreon.com criticalmagictheory you could also join it with a paid subscription as an outstanding owl, a deep diver, and a chronic overthinker. Speaking of chronic overthinkers, I want to take a moment to thank our new recruits, Rachel, Tara and Anna. Thank you all so much for the.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Time and financial contribution to keeping this podcast going. I hope that you enjoy all of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The perks that come along with being a chronic overthinker, including but not limited to the Discord, y'.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

All. I again, I'm still racking up my points.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I'm racking up my galleons. I was told that I needed to duel someone and I feel like perhaps, but I have to pick who I'm gonna duel and they need to know that I'm merciless. So if you are interested in joining our discord, the instructions are available for deep divers and chronic overthinkers on Patreon. As always, there is merch.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And last but not least, y', all, the time has come.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Every episode that we've done on Snape has not been a Dumbledore episode, but now we're getting to the Dumbledore episodes. And I was going to do like a little professorial panel in between these episodes, but one, I.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Organized it to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A certain extent, but not fully. And so, you know, we need time for, you know, respecting people's times.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But also the more I think about it, the more I feel like we.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Need to go directly into the Dumbledore episodes because we've been talking about him so much. Everyone's mind is fresh. We need to just go and we'll.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Just do our next trilogy and then.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We'Ll take a beat to kind of cleanse our palate to get ourselves together and then we'll move on and that's when we will have our professorial panel. And and I think the topic of the professorial panel is going to be what Harry Potter can teach us about 2025. And I'm excited about it. I've assembled a really great group of people who are in various places on their Harry Potter journey. Anyways, suffice it to say, we're getting into Dumbledore. You all need to get ready. The survey will be up on Patreon on Friday. It is your time. You have had weeks and weeks and weeks to prepare. I will, of course, before we start the episode, I will let you all know and I will post one more time. But you all need to start getting ready now. I'm telling you two weeks in advance because I know many of us like myself love to procrastinate. Start writing down your thoughts. Speaking of writing down your thoughts, I know for our post episode chat many of us like try to remember what's going on and then write our thoughts. Some people go on and they will write in the post episode chat as they're listening.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

You can do that. I want you to know that you can do that if you want to comment while you're listening.

[Professor Julian Womble]

If you're listening on Spotify, you can do that.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Like whatever you need to do.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Some people have Google Docs that they make and they take notes as they're going.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

You can do that if that's what you want to do.

[Professor Julian Womble]

However you want to approach our conversation is totally up to you. So you can prepare during the episode for the post episode chat by taking notes. You can prepare for this Dumbledore survey, which is coming out on Friday by taking notes. We've already got a number of essays complete with citations, footnotes, endnotes, and all the notes, y'. All.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

It's going to be a time. But before we do that, we've got.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To wrap up Severus Snape. And what better way to do that than to talk about heroism and villainy and redemption. So buckle up, buck up, and buckle up because this is going to be a time. And as always, before we get into it, remember in our post episode chat conversations we are coming with respect. If you are of the mind that you aren't really interested in hearing other people's opinions on your idea, let us know that you're just sharing, but you don't wanna be swayed. Remember that some of us are actively wanting to engage in meaningful dialogue. Also, let's minimize how much we draw on our own personal experiences as a means by which to explain some of these things. If it means that someone's critique of Snape is going to make you feel a certain kind of way, because it's gonna feel very personal to you. If that's your story, let us know. Let's kind of have a little bit of a disclaimer so that we can mitigate any sort of offensiveness that might come inadvertently. Enough of that teacher talk. Let's get into Sebi Sev. Hmm. The Half Blood Prince HBP okay, let's just talk about Severus.

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[Professor Julian Womble]

I have to say that one of the hardest parts of doing three episodes on a character that I genuinely dislike is trying to find a favorite moment. And this moment is my favorite moment with Snape because. Because I think it's one of these moments where I was actually like, snapping and being like, you better let him know. And my favorite moment for Snape. And I've been saving it. Oh, I've been saving.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

This moment is when Dumbledore reveals to Snape.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Now, again, this is not a Dumbledore.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Episode, but when Dumbledore reveals to Snape.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That Harry has to die at the right time. And Snape looks at him and goes, so you've been raising him like a pig for slaughter.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And I love it because there are very few moments where we get to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

See someone actively hold Dumbledore accountable. And if we're being honest, the only person who actually does it in a meaningful way is Snape. Because when Dumbledore puts on that ring on his fing. His ring ring on the fing thing, Snape's like, this was dumb. Are you stupid?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And this moment is another moment where he's like. So to be clear, you manipulated me.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Into watching over this child, Lily's child. You did the whole thing about the.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Shape of her eyes and the colors.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And da, da, da, da, da.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

You did all of that for the purposes of just saving him so.

[Professor Julian Womble]

So that he could die.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And I think this is such an extraordinary moment because it's one of the only times we actually see Snape's emotional core laid bare. He is apoplectic. He's furious. And for so much of the series, Snape's motivations have been opaque.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Like, we don't know why he's doing.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

What he's doing or who he's doing it for. But in that moment, in that scene, we finally get the truth. And it's a truth that some of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Us may not 100% agree with my take on what that truth is.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But to me, this isn't about protecting Harry because he cares about Harry. He's doing it for Lily. And he even says, like, Dumbledore is.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Like, you care about this kid.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And he's like. And Snape's like, don't be stupid. No. Expecto Patronum here is the doe.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Right?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And it's devastating. And it's also clarifying because suddenly everything.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We'Ve seen, every act of supposed loyalty, every ounce of courage, and, yes, there is courage here, shifts into focus.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

His entire life has been driven by.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Guilt, grief and a strong emotional attachment to someone who is gone.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And in this particular moment, those feelings collide with the realization that even Dumbledore, the man that Snape has trusted to give all of those feelings meaning and directionality and purpose, has been playing the same game of sacrifice and manipulation that Voldemort once played. And that's why it is so incredible.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To me and why I saved it for our last episode on Snape.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Because it's not just a revelation about Harry's fate. It's a revelation about Snape's faith. It's the moment that his loyalty to Dumbledore cracks. Even if only for a moment, he thought that this was about preserving Lily's legacy and keeping Harry alive. And when he finds out that that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Actually wasn't the goal, that Harry's survival.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Was actually never the point, it's like the ground gives out beneath him. And I love this moment because I think it humanizes Snape in a way that very few other moments actually do. It gives us a glimpse into what drives him. Not the spy, not the teacher, not the Death Eater or the double agent, but the man who spent his life trying to make one act of affection undo a lifetime of harm. And it's also a moment that humanizes Dumbledore in a really uncomfortable way because it forces us to see the cost.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Of his moral calculus, which we are going to spend pretty much every episode.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

On Dumbledore talking about, and to recognize that even he is capable of cruelty disguised as strategy. This is one of those rare scenes where you can feel the betrayal. Snape feels betrayed by Dumbledore's pragmatism. And Dumbledore is confronted with the limits of Snape's devotion with an understanding that it's not ideological, but this is actually personal. And one of these moments where I think that Dumbledore adopts the perspective of many of us, which is that Snape doesn't really have any feelings for anything, that he's just this kind of occluded soldier. And in this moment, we see Snape as a person who does feel. And we may not agree with the feelings, we may not call them what.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Other people will call them, but the reality is, is that whatever is motivating Snape is So far outside the realm of Dumbledore's comprehension.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Which is ironic, right? Because Dumbledore spends the whole time telling Harry about love and this and that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Oh.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Only to then turn around and be like, wait, I'm so confused.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I thought that you were done with this.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And Snape's like, done. Like, that was the whole point of this. And I don't know, there's something about that. I think that it just. It makes such an important impact on me because it's the one time where we get to see Snape let all of the barriers, the guards, the mental.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Space, the emotional kind of guardrails down.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And we get to understand fully and truly why he's doing what he's doing. And the reason some of us may say it's noble. It's not about saving the world. It's not even about saving a child. It's about trying to find some sense of forgiveness, absolution, redemption for the person.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That you truly cared about and maybe the only person you've ever really cared.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

About by protecting the only thing that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Exists of her still on the earthly plane.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And there's something both kind of devastating.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And beautiful about that reality of why he's doing this. And I'm not saying that I agree with it, and I'm not saying it doesn't give me the ick.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But there is something to be said.

[Professor Julian Womble]

For me in this moment of saying.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

You have completely misconstrued all the things.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That I have done.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And we've spent a lot of time talking about how this is loyalty to Dumbledore. And I think in part it is.

[Professor Julian Womble]

But it's also loyalty to the preservation of Lily's memory. And we gotta give it to him.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

No matter how we characterize the emotions.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He's found a way to reconcile how he feels about James and Lily and.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Found a way to make sure that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Harry at least has a pulse.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And because the bar is in hell.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It'S easy to clear.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And he clears it.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And not only that, he clears Dumbledore by calling him to task for what.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He'S actually been doing this whole time. And there is something so satisfying about.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It coming from a person like Snape. And I love it.

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[Professor Julian Womble]

For this episode's arithmancy lesson again we.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He had 550 responses and the first question we're tackling is Is Severus Snape a hero?

[Professor Julian Womble]

About 40% of us said yes, about 49% of us said no and about 11% of us said don't know.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Someone wrote.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I think Snape did things that were truly heroic, but I don't think he had the character traits other of a hero.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

That's why I chose the word anti hero. He was often cruel and vindictive, but he also did the right thing many times or the best he could without breaking cover.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Like protecting George in the Battle of.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

The Seven Potters or ensuring the safety of the students in his last year. I think he came to care for.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Harry eventually, even if he denied it.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Someone else wrote I believe that Snape.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Is a good person insofar as he.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Took his love for Lily and let.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It become the protection for Harry.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He didn't let it twist or corrupt him the way it could have.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He had a heart.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He did not let his love for Lily turn into a dark twisted thing, but fought for her child.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Not a villain, but villain shaped.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Oh yeah, someone else wrote. He did some brave things, double agent work and some good things. See the binding agreement with Narcissa over Draco. But I do not believe this makes him a hero in my book. He's still a villain, someone else wrote I don't think of Snape as either.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A hero or a villain.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Yes, he does a couple of good.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Acts, giving Harry the memory, sending the doe with the sword, but he also.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Used his power over others to treat.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Them the way he was treated. Trauma doesn't excuse it.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He's an antagonist to Harry for much of the story, but that doesn't make him a villain. He's somewhere in between, someone else wrote.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He reminds me of Joel from the Last of Us.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Neither of them cares about the greater.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Good, only about their good and their world. Snape with Lily, Joel with Ellie.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

We justify Joel more easily because his motives seem nobler and we see his side of the story. Snape's devotion feels smaller, more selfish, but it comes from the same place.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Love warped by loss.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

One of the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Things that I have often maintained when we've asked the question about is a person a hero or not is that to me a hero is someone who does something in the face of not necessarily having to do that thing, right? So when we talked about the Weasleys, I spent a lot of time talking about how as Pure Bloods, they didn't have to fight or be in the Order of the Phoenix. They could have just been Pure Blood and kept it moving. Right? And they were actively making a decision to be active participants in the kind of anti Voldemort movement.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And that, that to me is heroic.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Because you're going above and beyond for the sake of your, you're going above and beyond for a thing that you actually don't need to be going above and beyond for. And so I'm trying to apply that same paradigm to all the characters that we ask ourselves, are they, are they heroes?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And when I think about this for Snape, I'm struggling and I know that some of us may be like, but he like does all these things he doesn't need to do. And I think this is a bigger.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Question than I hope we get to talk about in the post episode chat.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Because to me, and you know, y'.

[Professor Julian Womble]

All know I'm a Gemini, so you know, I can, I always see things from both sides.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I can understand how people would arrive.

[Professor Julian Womble]

At his heroism using my definition of hero and say like, clearly the evidence is giving hero.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And I think, I mean I get that simultaneously, concurrently. And I also think that a lot of what he's doing is not like the, it's not self sacrificing in that he doesn't need to do it. I think that for him to feel.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Better about what he did to Lily, everything that he does, the double agent, all of that stuff is all necessary.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Like he has to do those things, right? And I, and maybe there's room to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Say like, he didn't need to kind of take Dumbledore up on his deal, right? Like he could have just, I don't know, wallowed in self pity and kind of turned internal and just eaten himself up from the inside out. And so that in many ways his decision to say yes to Dumbledore is in fact heroism because of the danger that he was engaging with by being a double agent and the potential for him to lose his life, you know, if Voldemort ever found out.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I get that. I do, I'm, I, I'm struggling with this because I, I see the heroic acts and even when I think about.

[Professor Julian Womble]

His death.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Snape died, but not really because of like the sacrifices that he was making. He died because Voldemort didn't understand the rules and the strictures of the Elder Wand. And Snape got caught in the crossfire of that. Snape had not anticipated dying in that moment. Snape did not go to Voldemort to die and in fact to not even Dumbledore would have predicted that this is what was going to happen. Because I don't think he fully understood like, what Voldemort's plan was in terms of getting the Elder Wand. And so at the end of the day, Snape's death, while tragic and unexpected.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And very visceral and aggressive, right? Like the whole Nagini situation was way more than I think many of us were wanting or expecting.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But at the end of the day, Snape is another casualty of war and not by his own volition. Like, he is a sacrificial lamb for Dumbledore's ultimate goal and for Voldemort's vanity and desire for power. And that is sad. But like, this is not him sacrificing.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Himself for the cause.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

This is him being, I won't say an innocent bystander, but someone who was actively just doing his job and ultimately fell prey to the nuances of magic.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That he simply didn't understand.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And so when we think about what this means for Snape as a hero.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Like, his death is not the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Thing that's locking me in on that.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Him being a double agent, absolutely, like.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Scary, necessary, dangerous, life threatening for sure.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But at the same time, like, I mean, did he need. I don't know.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I'm really, really, I'm struggling with this.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

One because I think that there is a way that there are heroic acts done. But even when I apply my own paradigm of doing a thing that you don't need to be doing, I think for Snape, he needed to do this to feel like he was actively repenting.

[Professor Julian Womble]

For the sins that he made.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Like, I think he needed to be the double agent. And I think Dumbledore knew that, which is why he exploited his feelings for Lily the way that he did. And in some ways it feels like Snape didn't really have a choice in this.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And maybe that's not fair.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And I'm sure that there will be.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Many of you in the post episode chat who will come and say, like, I'm not being fair. And I will grant you that that is very possible, that that is very possible. I. This is a hard one for me.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Because I think like.

[Dutch Vet Service Announcer]

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[Professor Julian Womble]

Yes, his actions brought down Voldemort, absolutely. There's no denying that. There's a question about intentionality here, right?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Like obviously, like I wonder if Snape actually cared about Voldemort falling and does that matter, right? Like do we care about that? Do we care about whether or not the actions and the intent were aligned with the overall motive? We talked about that a little bit.

[Professor Julian Womble]

When we asked, you know, was he a good member of the Order of the Phoenix?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I don't know, y'.

[Professor Julian Womble]

All.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I don't know. I'm really fighting on this and maybe that's my answer.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Maybe my answer is, I don't know. I'm joining the 11%. I don't know. Oh, I know you all are going to be so mad at me for this. I don't know. This is hard for me. And you know what? I'm just going to let that be what it is. I'm just going to let it be what it is. I know the post episode chat's going to be a wild ride. It's okay. It's our last episode on Snape. You thought I was going to make it easy on you? No. Oh my gosh. I knew this episode was going to be chaotic but like I really. There are things about these episodes that I plan. But my responses to your like open ended responses, I don't. I like to just kind of see how I feel in the moment and that might come back to bite me in the butt because, well, what a time we are having right now. The next question, is Severus Snape a villain? About 48% of us said yes. About 40% of us said no. And about 12% of us said don't. No.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Someone wrote, Severus Snape is the slimiest.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Git to ever walk the earth. Okay? They don't have strong feelings about Snape.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He's enthralled with the dark arts and only ever repents when he loses the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Attention of the girl he thought he was entitled to.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He only protects Harry because he's indebted to Dumbledore.

[Professor Julian Womble]

If he didn't have that obsession, he'd have stayed With Voldemort a hero, please, someone else wrote. Here's the thing.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Love for one person does not erase contempt or indifference towards all others.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Snape was solely driven by his devotion to Lilly. His story isn't one of redemption.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

It's a story of extreme obsession. If he had lived, would he have been less harmful, a better person?

[Professor Julian Womble]

Nothing we have indicates that would be.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

The case, someone else wrote. I think he began heading down an evil path and could have become a.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Terrible, murderous person had he continued.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But his love for Lily and his feelings of guilt stopped that journey and headed him down a path, a different path. He's cruel and vindictive, but not evil, someone else wrote. He's not a villain, but he is villain shaped. He's greasy, mean, bitter and hard to like. But there's something tragic in that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I was livid when I had to open my heart to him, someone else wrote.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He could have done more in every instance, and yet he always disappoints. Possessive, controlling, selfish in his friendship and pining. Cruel, vicious and heartless in his teaching. What an awful man to name your kid after. But I still can't call him purely evil, someone else wrote. I answered yes to him being a.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Good person, because I think the good things he did outweighed the bad.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But he's not innocent. Snape is cruel and emotionally stunted, but he's also a survivor of abuse and war. It's hard to call someone like that a villain when the system made him what he was.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Okay, now we have to really get.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Into it, because I do, I think that Snape is a villain. Yes, I do think, though. And now the more that I think.

[Professor Julian Womble]

About it, the more I realize, like, some of us have brought this up for other characters as well.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And it's like a hero to whom.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A villain to whom. And I think that, like, we have to allow that to weigh in.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I think again, like, I. I think that anyone who can be someone's greatest.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Fear is giving it's close to villain.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And when we think about why we.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Think certain people are villains, why we think that Umbridge is a villain, let's take a moment and think about that. Why we would say that even Gilderoy Lockhart was a villain and Gilderoy Lockhart did not inflict nearly as much harm. I mean, yes, he erased the memories of people, sure. Is that worse than anything that Snape did? Like Umbridge abused students? Yes. Snape also tormented students.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And what's really shocked me, I have.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To say, is the way that some.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Of us in the post episode chat have somehow absolved him of that particular reality and have said things along the lines of, oh, the students are too sensitive. Oh, I think that, you know, he was just hard on them for the sake of teaching them these things. Y', all, come on, come on. What is so clear to us is that he is not the same teacher to certain students as he is to others, which suggests to us a level of intentionality in terms of the rancor and animus that he brings to bear for certain students. We cannot absolve him of that or try to clean it up or say.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Well, other students didn't experience him that way. Not, no student should experience him that way. That is villainous to me. It is vile.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And again, we have to ask ourselves the question of when we are comparing him to the people that we have called villains, what is the thing that makes him less villainous? What is the thing that somehow, like, is it because of the motivation.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Yet.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Like, he, yes, he protects people, but so did Narcissa. Narcissa also put her life on the line. And maybe that would lead some of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Us to say, well, Narcissa isn't a villain. But when we look back at the survey and we ask the question, not necessarily of whether she was a villain, because I didn't ask that question and I should have someone write that down, we can go back and do it in another iteration of these analyses.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But 66% of us said that she.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Was not a hero. 66%, 2/3 of us said that she was not a hero. So at the same time, the same.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Token, when we're using a very similar.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Metric, if I'm looking at the benchmark for some of these other characters that we have talked about and we're looking at the things that they do and the way that they behave and how we arrive at whether or not they are, you know, heroes or villains. 68% of us said that Gilderoy Lockhart was a villain. 68% of us, 68% of us said that he was a villain.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And I have a lot of follow.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Up questions about how we understand that. 98% of us said that Dolores Umbridge was a villain. 98%.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And I think that the thing about.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Snape, and we're going to talk about this in the reflection, is.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

We allow.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The new information that we engage, that we get to completely color the way.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

That we see all of the things.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That he did before. Because here's the gig, the gag and the truth.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Many of us hated Severus Snape until.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Chapter whatever of Deathly Hallows.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And then all of a sudden, we switched. And I just want us to think.

[Professor Julian Womble]

About what happened in the Prince's Tale that made us say, aha.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

No more.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He's not a villain anymore. And maybe all of us didn't hate him, but many of us definitely did not like him.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And maybe I'm petty, which is true.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I can say it's not even a maybe. I am petty.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I think that he is certainly a.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Villain to more people than he is a hero.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And when I think of Snape, I.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Absolutely am much more inclined to call him a villain than I am to call him a hero.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And maybe that's my own bias and.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I own that I will own that particular reality.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And as I said, my understanding and appreciation for Snape has grown infinitely since.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We'Ve been doing these episodes, however, simultaneously, concurrently. And I am.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

There are some things I just can't shake. And one of those things is an.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Acknowledgement of the role that he played in the mental anguish of many students.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And yes, he helped bring down Voldemort.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He played an integral role. To me, that's absolutely true. I'm not convinced that that undoes, absolves, leads to forgiveness of. That just doesn't. That doesn't do it for me because I think that, yeah, he's a villain in many people's narratives.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And Harry, God bless him, was able.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To kind of move into a different place.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Not me. Not me.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And I know that many of our Snape defenders may not like that. I want to highlight the reality again, like, this is a new, updated version of Julian, who is now, like, much more inclined to see the utility and purpose and importance of Snape and all the feelings and things that go along with him. All of the anguish and the victimization and the. I see it all. I see it all.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And at the same time, I see the way that all of that affected how other people experienced him and themselves, how they understood themselves as people, how they understood their worth, how they understood their own ability to operate within a space that he occupied as well. I also see someone who leveraged all of those negative emotions in conjunction with the power that he had as a professor, as a caretaker, as someone who was. Who was charged with watching over these students. I see someone who became headmaster of Hogwarts and allowed the Karos to run roughshod over the entire institution to the point then where we have first years being put under the Cruciatus Curse because the Karos think it's cute.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And I understand that, that there is.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

A space in which he had to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Allow some of these things to happen for the sake of saving face.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But we also know that he is very rarely seen actually doing anything at Hogwarts. He swore to Dumbledore that he would keep those students safe and he allowed the Death Eaters to do that. That's crazy. I don't know how we explain that away. Like I don't know how we explain the fact that he allowed students to be tortured under his watch as headmaster. That tells us a story and I'm really trying to find the grace in that particular moment. But I think for me, the thing.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That I'm stuck with is that Severus.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Snape was a villain to many students. And again, maybe it's my own bias as an educator. I simply struggle with the idea that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He could ever be anything other than a villain when like he allowed his.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Own problems to dictate the way that children were treated when they were put in his care.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I don't know, y'. All. Yeah, I'm totally willing to just say and walk away and be like I, this is, this is the line in the sand for me and you may not like that and I absolutely appreciate that and I hope that you disagree with me because you all know that this is not a cult and you are totally allowed to disagree with me full heartedly. 10 toes down with your full throat and full chest.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

That's okay.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That's absolutely okay. And I hope that you enter into the post episode chat even if it's for the millionth time, to explain your case. I hope to see you there because I want your thoughts so that I have something to respond to in the Prof. Responds episode because maybe my perspective will be changed. It's happened before.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Some of you have changed my Listen, that last reflection I did on Snape.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I wasn't ready for that and it changed the way that I saw him. It does not, however, as far as I'm concerned, make me see him in any other way than someone who, because of the space that he has to occupy, lacks empathy, care, sympathy or concern for people put in his charge. And to me, I'm really struggling with how we make the distinction between him and Umbridge. There, I said it. The next question that we are grappling with is a new addition that I added in at the last minute because, well, I wanted the episode to be a little bit longer but it was a question of do we think that.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Severus Snape redeemed himself?

[Professor Julian Womble]

We had 175 total responses on Patreon. About 60% of us said no, 26% of us said yes, and 14% of us said don't.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

No.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Vero wrote, I said yes. But I really mean in terms of what happened with Lily and Harry in a roundabout way. When it comes to how he mistreated the kids, he didn't redeem himself. When it comes to outing Remus, he didn't redeem himself.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And even with Harry, had he not.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Been Lily's son, orphaned by Snape and Voldemort's actions, Snape wouldn't have given a rat's ass about what happened to him. In the end, it was all about Lily. And that's it. Kimberly wrote, there's a difference between redemption and absolution. Redemption is engaging in compensating acts. Acts. Absolution is no longer carrying the responsibility for your actions.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

If you turn my underwear pink by.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Washing your red socks with them, you can fix the error by replacing my underwear. Redemption.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But that doesn't mean I'm ever letting.

[Professor Julian Womble]

You do laundry again. Absolution. I think Snape redeemed himself, but I don't think he absolved himself. Thank you for that metaphor. We're going to use it again, okay?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Laurian wrote, he did more than anyone.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Other than Harry to defeat Voldemort, and.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

This was a choice, whereas for Harry it was predestined and unavoidable. We can debate as to the reason.

[Professor Julian Womble]

For that choice, but he still made.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

It and followed it through. Here we have the right choice, but.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Possibly for the wrong reasons.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He made awful, terrible wrong decisions.

[Professor Julian Womble]

But I don't think he's evil. I think he's flawed.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And I think by devoting the rest.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Of his life to fighting evil in the form of Diva More, he does.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Enough for me to see him as redeemed. Christie wrote, if Snape actually felt any.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Remorse for being a Death Eater, he would have shown it in all areas of his life.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He not just in being a double agent for Dumbledore. The way he continually bullied and abused literal children and never apologized and that even at the very end, shows that he had no remorse for his choices.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He only regretted that telling Voldy about the prophecy ruined his chances to getting his hands on Lily. Dying at Dumbledore's behest doesn't redeem him for anything.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Liv wrote, he was a petty and.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Vindictive bully who was an effective Order member, Dumbledore's puppet only because of his love and obsession for Lily.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He wanted to bring Voldaddy down. But from the evidence we have, it.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Seems like he wanted him gone. Not because he doesn't reflect the supremacist beliefs, but because he murdered the love of his life and childhood best friend.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I do not think that Snape is redeemable, but I understand why people think.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He is, because it's written that way.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Harry forgives Snape and even names his.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Freaking child after him.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Tamara wrote, my first thought to this is always redeemed himself for what?

[Professor Julian Womble]

BRO wasn't looking for redemption.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He would have had to have gotten over himself, his pride, and dealt with his trauma to have wanted any redemption. But he was too entrenched in bitterness.

[Professor Julian Womble]

For any of that.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Ms. Bcrafty wrote, I answered yes, because it represents what I think, but I.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Actually think he was on a path of redemption. I don't think he was ever actually.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

There yet, but he had chosen to be on that path, and I believe.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He would have gotten there if he hadn't have died. Jordan wrote, after confirming the definition, that redemption means making amends or compensating for one's fault. I do believe Snape achieved a kind of partial redemption.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Still, I don't believe Snape ever truly.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Took responsibility for his role in Lily and James death.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

His efforts to protect Harry were less.

[Professor Julian Womble]

About accountability and more about trying to.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Soothe his own guilt and grief. So while he may have sought redemption.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It was a deeply flawed version of it, one born of obsession and regret, not true acceptance or moral growth.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And Nadia wrote, redemption for which of his many misdeeds? Perhaps the worst thing he did that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We know of was handing over the prophecy.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

This was the one thing he may have redemption from. He sacrificed his life. I believe he knew he would ultimately.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Die when he agreed to kill Dumbledaddy in order to put right this wrong.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

In the only way he could. Lily may have forgiven him. James.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I'm not so sure.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Okay, so for this, I want to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Go back to the quote that Kimberly gave us, because I think at the root of a lot of the conversation that we're having, there's questions about how we understand redemption and absolution. And this kind of washing underwear, red socks example, I think, really helped me think through the logic of how we understand this. Right. So I'm gonna read this for you again. If you turn my underwear pink by washing your red socks with them, you can fix the error by replacing my underwear redemption.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But that doesn't mean I'm ever letting.

[Professor Julian Womble]

You do laundry again.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And I think that there's something about.

[Professor Julian Womble]

This that I really like, because again, it helps kind of ground our understanding of redemption, which in this case would be replacing the underwear versus, like, not letting you do the laundry again, which would be absolution. And I really like this.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But here's the thing. For me at least, when I think about this, in the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Think about the metaphor. Snape never replaces the underwear.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He doesn't even admit that he turned them pink. He just stops doing the laundry altogether so he won't mess up anything else. And then he hides the ruined pair so no one ever knows what he did. Like, he actively doesn't tell anyone. No one knows. And it is not until he dies that he admits the underwear is pink. And to me, that's not redemption, it's avoidance. That self protection dressed up as penance. Redemption would have required him to own the mistake. If I am buying you a new.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Pair of underwear, I don't know how we got here. Thanks, Kimberly, for this.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But if I'm buying you a new pair of underwear, it requires me to say, hey, I'm sorry I messed that up, and now I'm giving you another pair. That's not what happens. He doesn't face the people he hurt to try to make something right in the open. Instead, he spends his entire life trying to control who. Who knows the truth. And when they find out, now, some of us may say, you can't replace the underwear because the wearer of the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Underwear, in this case, Lily, is dead. Okay, but guess what?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Part of the reason why you are taking, Part of the reason why you.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Are protecting Harry is because you are trying to make right what you did to Lily.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Why not tell Herring, right? Like that would have been the easy thing to do even when you were dying, right? Like, at no point is it revealed.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That you turned the underwear pink. Kimberly, I'm so grateful to you for this because it just. It makes. It fits in my mind very, very well. And I know talking about Snape and underwear feels a little untoward, but I swear it's just for the purposes of talking about redemption. Everyone calm down.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Every good thing that Snape does, every act of bravery, every risk he takes, it all happens in secret. The people that he hurt never see it, and he never gives them a chance to. And again, I know that some of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

This is about Lily, and many of us have talked about Lily.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But at the end of the day, Harry is the physical, living, breathing manifestation of the very thing that he is trying to get redemption for. And Harry, in his benevolence and his.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Magnanimity, gives him that redemption in the end.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But to me, I don't think that Snape is redeemed. And maybe it's because, like, again, the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Person who he's actually seeking redemption from isn't here to give it to him. But I personally think that there are.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Plenty of other people who, who would.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Be able to give that to him.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And I think when Harry gives it.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To him, it is because Harry is Harry.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Because at no point is there any.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Acknowledgement of the hurt he's caused him.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Not even in giving him the memory. Because all Harry then sees is Snape.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Being like, this kid is garbage.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Snape doesn't try to make things right. He just tries to make sure that no one can see what went wrong. And that taps in directly to our.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Discussions of Occlumency and the way that we talked about how he seeks to hide everything.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And so that when we think about, you know, does Snape. Is he redeemed for me? No. And what would his redemption look like?

[Professor Julian Womble]

Confessing that you turned the underwear pink.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Confessing what you did wrong, Telling people, telling Harry, the living, breathing manifestation of the person you are seeking your redemption from, letting him know not only what.

[Professor Julian Womble]

You did, why you did it, why.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

You'Re apologizing, what happened, like all of the excuses that we. We give to Snape, why not give him that? And again, and I, some of us.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Are of the mind that somehow the Prince's tale is this. I don't think that snake was in the position to really control the kind of memories he was able to give Harry as he was taking his last breaths because he had been attacked by a snake.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I don't think he could control that. And I don't think that he was doing this for the sake of trying to look good in Harry's eyes. I think he simply poured out as.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Much as he could in the time that he had.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And so I don't. To me, giving the memories is not that, is not that. Because even in the memories, he never apologizes, he never acknowledges the wrongdoing.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We don't get any of that. And I think that that matters. We have now reached the point in the episode where I am going to reflect on our understandings of heroism and.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Villainy and Severus Snape.

[Professor Julian Womble]

In the last four episodes, we have spent a considerable amount of time unpacking our own understandings of who Severus Snape.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Is, what he represents in the wizarding.

[Professor Julian Womble]

World, what he represents to Harry, to.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Dumbledore, to all these people, how he arrived there, what it means for him to be in the space that he's in, the efficacy of his occlumency, the cruelty of his actions towards students. We've talked about so many things, but what we've not talked about really is, is what Snape can teach us about.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The world that we live in right now.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

We talked a lot in this community about what it means to be good.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A good person, a good Gryffindor, a good Slytherin, Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And most of the time when we.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Use the word good, we're talking about a version of goodness that's simple and clean and certain and doing the right thing and making the right choices and sticks standing on the right side. There's no moral ambiguity, no hesitation.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

We talk of good as though goodness is something you can measure by clarity. But what if it's not?

[Professor Julian Womble]

Even the most basic ethical questions undo that neatness.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Is it wrong to steal if you're.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Stealing bread to feed your children? Is it wrong to take a life if it's to save your own?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Those examples remind us that morality isn't always a line, it's a spectrum. And yet, both in this fandom and in our broader world, we often cling to a zero sum idea of virtue.

[Professor Julian Womble]

You're good or you're not.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

You're a brave.

[Professor Julian Womble]

You're a brave.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

You're brave or you're cowardly, righteous or corrupt. There's rarely room for I don't know.

[Professor Julian Womble]

You all heard me struggling with the notion of an I don't know for whether he's a hero or not. It took me many minutes to realize.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

That that is a viable and reasonable.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Response to that question.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And that's why in these books and in our community, this interests me so much. Because our understandings of goodness are shaped by the same cultural logic that built Hogwarts House. Morality, Gryffindor, courage, Slytherin, cunning, Hufflepuff, loyalty, Ravenclaw, intellect, Ev. Each of them sells us a very simple story.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Do the right thing.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Embody these characteristics correctly and you'll belong. But what happens when the right thing isn't clear? What happens, as we talked about, when courage is recklessness or loyalty becomes enabling? Most of us, like Snape, live somewhere inside of those contradictions. And that's what makes heroism as a concept so complicated. Because heroes are supposed to be the ones who do the right thing when no one else will. They make sacrifices that don't benefit them. They take on burdens that no one else asks them to carry. And by that definition, mine included, Severus.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Snape should be seen as a hero.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And yet I struggle because there is a way in which there are so many different countervailing things pulling at me. I can understand one context where people would say, yes, that is very heroic. But I can also see another one where people will say, absolutely not. And I struggle because there are so many things happening. And the perspective that we get is one that makes it very difficult to really lock in on what any and all of his actions, in their totality, mean. He risked his life every single day, gained no recognition, and died without ever being thanked for what he did. But that's only one perspective, right? That's only through the lens of bringing Voldemort down. That has nothing to do with the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Way that he treats his students and his day job.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

It has nothing to do with the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Way that he actively engages with Harry, who he is trying to protect, right?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

So, like, there is a way in which most of the way that we understand Snape's heroism is through the lens of this one thing, which, of course, is not inconsequential.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Obviously, bringing Voldemort down matters, but he.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Is doing a lot of other things.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That require us to see his perspective.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And his story and arc in a very particular way. And here's the thing that we have.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Not talked about yet, but I think is really important.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Snape's arc is really not an arc.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It's a flat line.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And we just get perspective on it later on, right? Like, his character does not change. What changes is how we understand the actions and what he did. And that matters in terms of our understanding of his role as a hero, right? Because when we think about the notion of heroism as. And I'm gonna say this many times throughout this reflection, it's really about perspective. And what we get is not anything that changes what he's done, but a new perspective on why he did what he did. And even then, that's in one kind of domain.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It doesn't explain why he treated Hermione the way that he did.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

It doesn't explain why he treated Neville.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The way that he did.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

It only explains one piece of this person's larger, more nuanced narrative. But the world doesn't teach us to see heroes with nuance. The world teaches us to root for them, to celebrate them, but to believe that if someone is a hero, they must also be good. And that good that they've done must therefore be noble and righteous and pure. But heroism, in the way that we've been conditioned to understand it comes with this absolutism attached. If you're a hero, then what you've done must be worth celebrating.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And that's simply not true, because I can recognize that someone has done heroic acts and still not like them. I can also recognize that they've done.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Heroic things and still question what they did. I can even recognize that they are a hero and still judge the cost of their choices. We rarely talk about the fact that most heroism in myth and history is violent. It requires someone to fight, to harm, to destroy.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And we don't call it that.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

We soften it with words like sacrifice and bravery. But heroism often leaves wreckage in its wake. The thing that redeems it is the context, what the act achieved, who it protected, who got to write the story afterwards. Because after all, the Prince's Tale is the Prince's Tale. All we get from that narrative is Snape's perspective. And one of people's favorite favorite things to say when, especially when I leverage.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A critique against a character that people like is Harry is an unreliable narrator. He's coming at it from his own perspective.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He's not bringing truth.

[Professor Julian Womble]

There is a way in which the. The absolutism of his kind of experiences and what he is seeing may not necessarily be what has actually happened.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And I think that that that critique can also be leveraged here. The chapter that we use for many of our defenses of Snape is coming from Snape. It's how he himself experienced it. And while, yes, he may not have had the power to be able to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Curate it the way that he wanted.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

We also are only getting the way that he experienced it, the way that he understood it. And so, in many ways, right, the spoils go to the victors. We don't get to experience what Lily experienced. We don't get to get anyone else's story about this. All we get is Snape's. And it's from that that we build.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Out our narrative about his heroism.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And I think it's important for us to think about the way, again, that perspective informs the narrative that we are presented with, and then what we then.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Do with that narrative based on that information.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And in many ways, I know that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I'm conflicted about my perspective on whether Snape was a hero. And I'm sure that there are other people who also are.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I think that part of that kind.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Of dichotomy that we're struggling with is.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

We know that what he did ultimately mattered in one domain. But. But then there's also all this other stuff that he did. That, I think, is interesting as a mental exercise because it introduces the nuances of how we understand the idea of heroism and the things that we're willing to forgive for a person who has so many flaws, justifiably so. We talked about all the things that Snape experienced and the lack of healing that he's undergone and what that then.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Means for his ability to operate in a society with other people. We get that. I understand that.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And there's a humanity and a depth.

[Professor Julian Womble]

To that that I think is actually.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Really important and we don't get with a lot of other characters. But to me, it also undermines the.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Notion of his heroism. And I don't think I'm alone in that.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And that's part of why we say.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Never meet your heroes.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Because heroes almost never look heroic up close because they are human, flawed and scared and sometimes selfish. And when you finally see that, something strange happens because they might either become more heroic because you understand the things that they were up against, or they might become less heroic because you finally see the harm they caused. Either way, what you lose is the illusion of perfection.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And I think about this a lot, particularly as it pertains to my parents.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

For me, growing up, my parents were my first heroes. And I think that it is true, even for those of us whose relationship.

[Professor Julian Womble]

With our parents is fraught, that there.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Were people in our orbit, adults who we were able to find solace in and to. And to imbue them with this kind of untouchability. For me, that was my parents. And as I got older, the cracks began to show and I started to see their compromises and the moments when love and survival collided and moments where I was a victim of their own trauma, of the things that they never discussed, of the fact that there was.

[Professor Julian Womble]

A lot of pink underwear left that.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Was just hidden and replaced with other underwear without any discussion that my parents were human. And I think as an adult, when.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I returned back home, having lived life.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And come back and seeing, oh, oh, you all are just people and you have done a lot of work that has affected me and the way that I understand myself, the way that I live my life. And if you're lucky, that realization makes them more real. Not saints and not villains, but just people doing the best they could with what they had, to quote the immortal Mariah Carey. And I think the reason they tell us to never meet our heroes is because so much of heroism is fantasy. It's the stories we make up in our heads about people we admire. It's projection I was just talking to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

My students about this the other day.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

About how when we think about the author of these books, I realized for me, that I never thought of her.

[Professor Julian Womble]

As a hero growing up.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I didn't know anything about her life.

[Professor Julian Womble]

I didn't look her up.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I just loved the books. And my love for Harry Potter did.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Not translate to my love for the author.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But for many people, the books and the author were the same safe haven. The world she built felt like proof of what she believed. And so in. So when her real world language, the transphobia, the vitriol, her exclusion came to light, for many of us, it felt like betrayal because the person we had imagined couldn't exist beside the person we were experiencing. And that particular tension, I think, exists for Snape as well. Because the reality is, is that J.K. rowling gave us this world, gave us a safe haven, a space for us to feel like ourselves, to find ourselves.

[Professor Julian Womble]

In whatever way we could represented in.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

In this space. For many of us, she was a hero. And yet simultaneously, concurrently. And we are now grappling with new information about what she believed. And we have to figure out how we are going to navigate that. This person who was our hero, this person who we looked to and whose narrative was one that many of us connected to even outside of the Harry Potter text itself. And in that same way, we see these, these the way that many of us have found ourselves in Snape in.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Some capacity, whether it be emotional stagnation, whether it be navigating trauma that has come from home or from school or.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

From bullying, we found ourselves there. And what we have done is found a way to absolve him of that.

[Professor Julian Womble]

What is also true in the real world, in our real life, as it pertains to the author of this text.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Is we are less willing to do that. And I think that there's a really interesting parallel there between our relationship with Snape and our relationship with J.K. rowling. And that's due in large part to the fact that Snape's move on the spectrum is going from presumed villain to what some would call a hero. And J.K. rowlings is the inverse. And what do we do with that? And that's what Never Meet yout Heroes really means. Not just that they'll disappoint you, but that they can't possibly live up to the version of them you created in your mind.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We are so good at storytelling that.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

We tell stories about people, too. We build head.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Head cannons for them.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

We fill in their silences with our hope We. We create context that makes their flaws forgivable because we want to preserve the comfort they give us. As long as we control the narrative, the hero can stay heroic. And when reality intrudes, we don't know how to reconcile the two. And I think that that's what makes Snape so fascinating. Because he's the inverse.

[Professor Julian Womble]

He isn't the hero we imagined who turned out to be flawed in.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He's the man we dismissed who turned.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Out to be complicated.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He's the uncomfortable truth that most of our heroes are closer to him than.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We'D like to admit.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Flawed and messy and human, with the capacity for cruelty, sometimes kindness. And always more complicated than the fantasy we created in our heads. The fantasy of someone is always more.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Rewarding than the reality of them.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But the reality is where the lessons live. And maybe that's why I was always.

[Professor Julian Womble]

So drawn to Xena, the Warrior Princess, which is one of my favorite shows of the late 90s. I was a sucker for a woman who flipped and kicked ass on television.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

But what really pulled me in wasn't just the action, but it was the moral complexity.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Hercules, the Legendary Journeys showed Xena as this kind of messy, villainous, disastrous person.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Where Hercules himself was charming and moral and pure.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Xena was ruthless and violent and a.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Villain who fought tooth and nail to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Like, exert herself because she wanted people to take her seriously as a woman. And I remember the first episode of.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Her own series and it was all about her trying to cross back over into goodness and the world not quite.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Letting her, the people she'd hurt didn't forgive her overnight.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Her reputation as a Warrior princess lingered. And that tension of trying to do good while living with what you've done was the whole show. And I think that this also paints the way that I view Snape and my understanding of his redemption. Because Xena literally had to cross the gauntlet and get beat down by her own men in order for them to.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Like, accept the role that she was playing. I'm not advocating for that. I'm simply saying that she had to openly acknowledge the harm she'd done. Later, I saw the same dynamic with Prince Zuko in the Last Airbender, another character that people fell in love with because they wanted to believe he could change.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And there's something deeply human about rooting.

[Professor Julian Womble]

For a villain turned hero.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

We want to see the work, we want to see the struggle. We want to see the possibility of redemption.

[Professor Julian Womble]

And I struggle with this, admittedly, and.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I love that many of you do.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Not, and that many of you work tirelessly to find the humanity in a person. I'm not very good at that. It's work in progress.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I think that why these stories have always felt more real to me than the clean cut ones is because they capture something that's true about us and.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The world that we live in.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

The line between hero and villain is a story that we draw and not the truth we live. Snape, in his own way, embodies the false dichotomy. He both defies and reinforces everything we've.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Been taught to believe about goodness.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Because the journey from villain to hero.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Is the one we like. It feels redemptive.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

It reassures us that people can change. But the journey from hero to villain.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That'S the one we resist.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

It asks us to accept that goodness can erode, that people we admire can become the very thing we fear, that institutions we trust can decay from within. It's easier to believe in redemption than in disillusionment. And yet both are true. Heroism and villainy are two sides of the same coin, minted by perspective and time. The difference is rarely in what a person does. It's in how we decide to remember it. We've seen that with Snape. Many of us will talk about the exact same moment in the text but come at it from different perspectives.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Because we've allowed our own experiences, our.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Own trauma, our own relationships, our own everything to inform then how we view.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The the actions of this character.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

And that's what's so unsettling about Snape. Because every institution he served, the Death.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Eaters, the Order of the Phoenix, Hogwarts.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Itself, found a way to justify keeping.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Him because he was useful.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He is the perfect reflection of a world that rewards effectiveness over empathy. A world that forgives cruelty when it delivers results. A world that confuses person purpose with goodness. And that is not fiction.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That's real.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

It's how power works.

[Professor Julian Womble]

It's how politics works.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

It's how movements work. Corporations and classrooms. We defend the people who quote, unquote, get things done. Even when what they're getting done hurts someone else. We let the ends erase the means and call it pragmatism.

[Professor Julian Womble]

That's why the question isn't just is Snape a hero or a villain, it's.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Hero or villain to whom. Because morality is never objective, it's positional. It depends on who benefits, who suffers and who gets to narrate the outcome.

[Professor Julian Womble]

We see this everywhere, everywhere in our world right now.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

The same people many of us call.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Villains, those leading attacks on trans rights.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

On bodily autonomy, on education, are simultaneously being celebrated elsewhere as heroes, and that dissonance forces us to face the uncomfortable truth. Heroism and villainy aren't opposites, they're interpretations. Snape lets us practice sitting in that discomfort. He doesn't give us a clean answer, he gives us a mirror. He reminds us that moral clarity is often a privilege of distance, that every act looks different depending on where you're standing. So what does Severus Snape teach us.

[Professor Julian Womble]

About the world we live in?

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

He teaches us that morality isn't fixed, it's negotiated. That heroism isn't purity, it's perspective. That we are taught to root for heroes but rarely, rarely question them. And that maybe the work of being good isn't about finding heroes at all, but recognizing their humanity in all of.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Its messiness and contradiction.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Because the world we live in also rights its heroes and villains.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The question is whether we're brave enough to read past the mystery. This has been another episode of Critical Magic Theory. I'm Professor Julian Womble and if you liked today's episode. First of all, thank you. Please feel free to like, rate, subscribe and do all the things that one does where pods are cast y'. All. I know that there were some takes that you will not like.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

I invite you to meet me in.

[Professor Julian Womble]

The post episode chat because that is where it's all going to go down. Patreon.com criticalmagictheory you can join for free and join in the conversation there. There are also a bevy of other options for you if you are a chronic overthinker or a deep diver. Please feel free to join us on the Discord. The instructions are also on the Patreon. If you want to follow me on social media, please feel free to do so at Prof. JW on TikTok and nope Prof. JW on Instagram Prof. W on TikTok. Feel free to send me an email at Critical Magic Theory gmail.com. check out our website criticalmagictheory.com See me.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

In the post episode chat. I can't wait to see what we come up with.

[Professor Julian Womble]

Until then, be critical and stay magical my friends.

[Co-host or Guest Speaker]

Bye.