← Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Charlie Kirk’s Views on Business, Fatherhood, and Celebrity | Tyler Bowyer
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Foreign.
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Of my Charlie Kirk legacy series that I've been doing this week on Culture Apothecary. I wasn't planning on this episode, but you guys loved the Andrew Colvette interview so much and I thought, man, well, who is somebody else that's known Charlie for forever and can kind of speak to the nerdy behind the scenes inside baseball Turning Point come up type of stories. And that's Tyler Boyer. He is the COO of Turning Point Action, which is our sister organization that really focuses on candidates and the hardcore politics of things. And Tyler is our longest tenured employee at Turning Point usa. So I thought he would be a great person to have on just to share some OG Charlie stories that you've never heard. You know, some of the older, original Candace, Charlie, Kanye stuff, Charlie's philosophies on parenting, what he kind of envisioned for his kids, his ideas of, like, what would have made Turning Point a success in the early days. Please welcome CEO of Turning Point Action, Tyler Boyer to Culture Apothecary. You are the longest tenured Turning Point employee, is that right?
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That's right.
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And you really embarked on this journey with Charlie to get together like you guys had started this. You're, I mean, one of the founding fathers as well as Andrew Colvette. You guys have been here since the beginning, known him from just being a kid all the way through becoming a husband, becoming a father, and really the superstar that he became. Can you talk about that moment where you first met Charlie and how you guys decided like, okay, let's band together and build this thing?
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When I met Charlie, he was already going a million miles a minute. And that's what really attracted me to hitch my wagon to Charlie. I tell people this all the time, is I was here in Arizona and I was a young leader. I was a, you know, college Republican president. I had served on the board of regents as a student regent. And we just realized that there weren't any conservative organizations actually helping young people. And so people had said, hey, you need to go to meet this kid that's in Illinois. He's saying a lot of the same things that you're saying, doing a lot of the things that you're suggesting that need to be done. And I met Charlie and it was right away that I knew, wow, he got it. He understood. And that's what made us fast friends, was he was doing all the things that were the answers to all the problems. And that's really the story of Turning.
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B
Point, which at that time, what were the problems that he was Seeing. And you were seeing.
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Oh man. I mean there's so much. I mean there was just a lot of bloated conservative organizations out of the D.C. area that just didn't do very much. They were more interested in kind of just like patting people on the head than actually doing the work. And the work is across America. The work is in all 50 of the states, not in the D.C. beltway. So when you have organizations being run out of DC, they sometimes get in this kind of rat race, circle, hamster wheel type thing where all they care about are the people who are there and that they're answering to, whether it's donors or if it's like people in Congress or the big power players. And Charlie never cared about that. That was never of interest to him. It's never been of interest to me. In fact, that's kind of our anti establishment focus that we have at Turning Point that everybody's always sensed and always made people feel very uneasy is that they just can't control us. Right? They can't control Turning Point. They can't control what Alex Clark has to say. They can't control what Charlie has to say or anyone else that works here. And so that's very unnerving for people who are in the D.C. area. And that's what makes us so cool, is that we were never supposed to exist.
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Did he come up with that slogan, Big Gov sucks?
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Yes, yes. So right from the very beginning, that's part of what attracted me to Charlie. All the stuff that you see here that we do today, that we continue, Charlie's brain power came up with. So these rally signs, all the big posters that you see on campus that we still use, and we use those at Turning Point Action as well. That was all already devised when I met Charlie. And the big government sucks slogan. It was so funny. Our original website was turningpointusa.net and we also had biggovernmentsucks.net and so that was net. Cause that's all they could afford at the time. And I don't know if somebody else owned the domains or whatever. We eventually got a hold of them. But we were pushing that as the slogan which was kind of just like kind of the rallying cry for all of Turning Point. That was like basically our only collateral that we had ever produced was big government sucks signs. And the next day I had an election for to become chair of Maricopa County. And I had little Brooks, who's my oldest son. He's at that time, I think he was five or so. But he was very little and he's in the picture holding up one of the big gov suck signs, like right next to me. And everybody, you could see the entire crowd loved it. Like everybody loved it. And that was my first interaction, which was like that confirmation that this genius, this brain power, this conservative epicenter that Charlie had created, that was so right and so anti establishment and so real, you could touch it, right. You could feel it with the big guff sucks stuff. It worked. And it worked with the grassroots. The grassroots gravitated towards it and that's what the. The movement needed.
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So originally, and correct me if I'm wrong, originally Turning Point was created and kind of the vision was just this college campus, chapters, clubs, if you will.
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Yeah.
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So it was the field program, which is. Was the first thing we did. And then eventually throughout the years that we. We expanded into all these other different departments of the organization, like CVP and events and graphic design and productions and all of these things. Right.
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Influencer, all that stuff. That's the only element that you came through on was. Was all of that. But yeah, the heartbeat for all of Turning Point USA has always been the field program, the national field program. And it wasn't even. We didn't have chapters. Chapters came later. It was just going out on campus with a table and preaching the good word essentially out on campus.
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B
So how did he move from that to events and all these other things?
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One of the earliest things, and again, this is the brain power of Charlie Kirk was they came up with our Young Women's Leadership Summit.
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Oh, that was the first event.
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That was really one of the first events. So it was young women's, young Latinos and then our high school summit. So the very first one that we ever did was in 2015. It was in Pheasant Run Resort in Illinois. So. So it was like, right. Real close to the heartbeat. So this was still like when Turning Point was all centric around Illinois. And we held basically all three of those events all together, one after another. And this actually happened to be the same week that we did the first Trump rally, which was in July of 2015. But all three of them were basically sandwiched together all at the same resort. So it was back to back to back. All of them were tiny. I mean, we had like, I don't know, like maybe a dozen, two dozen young women at the first Young Women's Leadership Summit.
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Two dozen.
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It was not very, I mean, I still have the pictures in my phone. It was not very big. Our high school was a little bit bigger. I think we had like 50 or so kids.
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But see, to put this in perspective, the growth trajectory we've been on for this last decade or so is so crazy because my first Turning Point event was Young Women's 2018, I remember. And when I was there, there were hundreds and hundreds of kids. Yes. So you're saying in a three year span, we went from 24 or so women to hundreds and hundreds of women.
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Hundreds, yeah. And that. And now thousands where we're at today. But that to your question, you know, there was always a known quantity here of like, hey, we need to organize events. We need to organize and do these. The real question was, how do we go about those? Because how do we make them attractive enough for enough people want to go to them? Because you have to keep expanding. And it's a little scary because you have to go from, okay, well, we can, we can all fit in a conference room in a low budget resort in Illinois to, hey, we need to move this to Dallas to do it in a little bit more of a central, a little bit more of an accessible place. And we need to move it into like a real legit hotel and take over and then go from there to where we are today, which is like we have to take over convention centers and, you know, Gaylord resorts and things like that. Right. The, the real history of this is like our events team. We started building our events team and we had incredible people like Alex Seavey, who was working for us at the time. And she had just started. She was in a campaign intern. She, the Ted Cruz campaign in 2016, was looking for a job. Like, loved doing the events for the presidential style stuff. So we brought her in and we just sat down and remember sitting down with her when we still had our offices in Illinois. And I was like, hey, are you willing to, you know, move to Arizona? Because we're moving our headquarters to Arizona. And she said yes. And she did it. And we got into this building actually where we're filming right now, and there was nothing in here. This was a garage where we're sitting right now. This is like, that's all it was. It still is a garage.
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B
It still is technically, but.
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But it was a. Just a garage. There's nothing in here. And you know, this entire space was just completely empty. And we had no one. And we had like basically one employee that we had to build from the ground up then at that point for our events and for the world's class style events that I know Charlie had always envisioned. You know, it was along the way it was, you know, how do we convince donors and then also Charlie that, you know, we need a bigger, more expensive stage? How do we convince donors and Charlie, how do we lay out that we need a bigger venue for that?
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And he did not want this to be your mom's or your dad's conservative convention. He was very specific because with the memorial, there was a lot of people kind of clowning on us online, being like, oh, you have fire shooting and cannons and all of these things. He had a specific vision of this is what makes events great. He wanted us to be doing that kind of stuff. Right?
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Yeah. I mean, and I'll tell you from the beginning, this is the humility of Charlie. Charlie was always interested in making sure that we weren't wasting money.
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Yes. He was very, very fiscally responsible.
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I mentioned Alex, I remember the first time we bought T shirt guns and I was like, hey, like, our events are big enough. Like we. We used to throw T shirts from the stage and stuff like that. We still do. I mean, Charlie is known for throwing hats and things like that. Right. But like, we bought these T shirt guns and I think they were like, I don't know, 500 bucks a piece or something. And I remember being like talking with him was like, hey, I think we really need this. And us having that debate over should we do it, should we not do it? All those. Every single decision that was made along the way, whether it was expanding the venue, expanding the stage, our debate over led for the background on that because again, once we got to a size that was approximately the size of cpac, which was kind of the biggest event that existed, we looked at, we. We had been at CPAC every year since. Since the inception of Turning Point. And I'd been there every year and there was always this uncomfortability because it felt like. Like kind of an older event, right? Not to knock cpac. It just is kind of more geared towards.
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Well, it's more geared towards adults, not really young people.
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And that was kind of our concern was like, well, do we invest into cpac, you know, and try to make it acceptable and we're not really in control, or do we do our own thing? And that's really when we took a turn which was like, all right, you know, let's do our own thing. And that's where, you know, we started the development process with the events team. And Lauren, who. Lauren started at an event, she came to one of the last events from kind of the old school way of doing things. And I Sat down. I remember sitting down with her. She was just a student that had come to watch but had some events experience and she had applied for a job. And I sat down with her afterwards and we had a conversation, was like, what would you do differently here? And it was just like this list. And I took that list and sat down with Charlie and was like, here's all the things that we need to do better. We're hiring. We got to hire more people to help support and make this bigger. And Charlie was all on board for that with everything. But we went through all those things and again, one of those things was led and it was like, whoa, man, this is a, it's a huge expense.
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Yeah.
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I mean, doing things like a, like a Taylor Swift concert style level of event, it costs money. And you, you don't want to waste donor dollars and things that programmatically go right into us, you know, campus activism and actually doing the job on things like that. And especially when your budget's a lot smaller. And at the time it was. And so we had to figure out how to offset it by getting more people to show up to events. So that's what forced us to grow. Right. And say, okay, we're gonna have more tickets sold, we're gonna have more sponsors show up to these things that are gonna offset the cost of the led. Yeah, that are gonna offset the cost. And it worked. And it worked. And Charlie was all in on board for that. And I think it was like that culmination. I think that first year that we were able to pull together, America Fest in particular, we started LED at a much smaller scale for YWS and the Student Action Summit, which we held in, in West Palm Beach. But that first America Fest that we did a handful of years ago, we moved it to Arizona, called it America Fest. And the LED just lit up and it was like, with the sparks and the confetti and everything. And once you see that on camera, you see everything and then how many people that attracts and how exciting that is. That's when the game changed and we've, we've never looked back.
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Do you think Charlie wanted to be famous?
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No. No. Charlie Kirk was the most humble person that I've ever seen step into a limelight like. And that's what has honestly kept everybody squarely around him. He was never a person that was seeking attention. His goal was always to tell the truth and expand the movement.
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That the truth would be attention getting enough.
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That's right. Like that would attract everyone that would be necessary to complete the Mission. Right. That would. And again, you know, when you step into that role of being a spokesperson for the conservative movement, you naturally become famous. I think he did. He became the face of young conservatism very rapidly because there was a big, huge, gaping hole that was left there by the political establishment and the elites. But he never was seeking to be famous, didn't want to be famous.
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But he was smart to say that we need to surround ourselves with influencers and commentators and whatever you want to call it, that did want to be famous. He would say that to me. He would say that about me. He would be like, alex doesn't want to be famous enough. We need her to want to be famous more. Because it's like, that's going to drive you to want to go out there to, you know, to. To draw attention to the organization and.
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All that kind of stuff. Yeah. I mean, I think he was always really focused on the organization and the mission. Right. Which is that if we can get people who want to help profess the mission.
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Yep.
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Like, they always came first. And there was a lot of people, and there's give or take, like, again, people who want to be famous who can also help profess the mission, like, that's a really great trade off. I think that's who really excited him the most, were people who would lay into the mission that wanted to do the hard work. I mean, there's a lot of people who want to be famous but don't want to do the work. Charlie always wanted to do the work, and fame kind of followed the hard work that he put in. Does that make sense?
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What was his early vision of success for tpa like? He was like, we will know we have made it. When? And then what did it become in the months right before his death? Like, then he was like, this is our big vision for Turning Point now going forward.
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Oh, my gosh. I mean, those goal posts always kept moving for sure. So, like, every day it would. It seemed like, oh, we did it. And then I'd go talk to Charlie and be like, oh, no, we haven't done it yet. The goalpost just moved. Which is what I honestly love about Charlie is that we were always leading from the front. I mean, it didn't take much in the conservative movement to lead from the front with youth because there was so little that was being done prior to Turning Point existing. And so we basically became our own marker on that. We had to move the goalposts. Charlie had to constantly keep pushing everyone. Charlie was the person that honestly was Always a great example to others because he did that, but always pushed people just the right amount so they wouldn't break, but they would see the vision and see what the outcomes would be for that.
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So, like, what were numbers or things that he wanted to do then and then what did it become this year?
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So I remember we bring up events, like, our first goals of like, wanting to get a thousand people at an event. Yeah, right. Like, that was a huge, huge deal. No one in the conservative movement had ever done an event that was a thousand people big. Like, just, just. They just didn't exist. That's why, like, think of it like presidential campaigns really kind of get a thousand people in a room a lot of times.
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Wow.
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So. And like, we knew that, like, back in 2015 when, remember, there was like 20 people running for president. Like, we hosted the first big speaking event. I talked about. I had Charlie and we had Rand Paul, and it was here in Arizona, and Rand was still running for president. This was like early 2015. And we got a thousand people in the room, and they were blown away. They couldn't believe it. They couldn't believe it. And it was Charlie and Rand that spoke. But that was pretty typical back then. Like, we can't really envision it now because of Trump rallies.
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And I know that's what I was gonna say. I, like, kind of forgotten that politics didn't used to be that exciting to people.
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It was not exciting. It was horrible. It was awful. It was decrepit. It was miserable. It was the people running it had no vision.
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That's probably something that Charlie and President Trump had in common, is they both saw the value in making politics more like showbiz.
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Yeah, for sure. I mean, Trump is a showbiz president and, you know, Turning Point became a, you know, a showbiz events organization that really like, kind of jived with the entire Trump administration. Right.
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B
Right before Charlie died, I mean, this year, what was he telling you guys? Just C level executives. You know, this is what we need to be working towards now for the future of Turning Point.
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A
Well, it's constant. So, I mean, there's a lot of different things. First and foremost, at the very heart, we talk about the field program. Yeah, the field program was always. The heart has always been the heartbeat of Turning Points system. Right. Whether that's on the Turning Point USA side or the Turning Point Action side. And the goal was to grow significantly and dramatically.
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B
The high school program that's growing faster than anything.
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Well, that's the biggest thing that that's come Since Charlie's assassination is that there have been more requests specifically to get involved the high school. And that was the biggest need. And we knew that.
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And we just found out that the state of Oklahoma, every single high school is going to have a Turning Point chapter.
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A
That's right. And hopefully we'll have more states follow in that way. We're going to talk about that hopefully in Utah with our Utahns. Yeah, that's a great example of that. Mission never changed for Charlie from day one to where he is today, which was. That was the focus. Keep pushing, keep pushing. There's 30,000 high schools in America. We've gotta be at least half of those. He would say, you know, prior to just recently, just when we were in Colorado, we just had talked about this. It's like, we need to be on 20,000 high schools. I remember going like, Charlie, there's only 30,000 high schools in America. At 20,000 high schools. And with Andrew Cipher, who runs the field program, I just. We were having that conversation. I was like, oh, my gosh. Like. But that's how much Charlie pushed, right? Was like, hey, we can be at two thirds of every high school and now we certainly will. Yeah. Like almost every high school probably in America.
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You're now the COO of Turning Point Action, which is our sister organization. It's a 501C4 and you guys are ballot chasing and you're helping candidates win races. And it's like more of the straight up political army of the organization. And before that, though, you were COO of Turning Point usa. So you were the person that hired me originally and there were no media shows. Turning Point USA had never done a show before. And I kind of pitched this idea for a show. You guys decided to take a huge risk in hiring me. What were those conversations like behind the scenes between you and Charlie about hiring me?
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I remember them very, very fondly because it was all centered around ywls. So remember, you came to ywls, loved it. You had reached out and said how much you loved it. And you were. You a premier radio talk show host. Right. You were. You were too nice and cute and funny for radio. Right.
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I was too conservative is really.
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And then mostly too conservative. Right. So. And that was what the conversation was, which is like, I'm too conservative. You know, that's not. This is not a great trajectory for me. Like right there.
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Yeah.
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I don't know what, like, my stability will be here. And we had had the conversation with Charlie of like, hey, what if we took someone like Alex and built around her. Something that was really special and unique. And at that exact same time, we were actually in conversations with Snapchat about doing a very specific, you know, Snapchat related show. Cause Snapchat does shows, but they control all of the content that goes in and out. Snapchat, it's not like a free flowing platform similar to Instagram or X or whatever, right? Or Facebook. They control all of the narrative. And they had vocalized and said we would be open if you guys wanted to create a show. And that's where, you know, at the same time having the conversations with you, you had this incredible idea for Poplitics. When it brought to Charlie, he was like ecstatic and like, yes, do it. Go, go, go. And that's what like really launched the. And God bless you for picking up your entire life out of Indiana, moving to Arizona.
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B
Yeah. And this was before. I mean, there was no. He didn't even have the Charlie Kirk show yet. That came later in the pandemic. So it was, I think the next.
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Year, the very next year is when we launched Charlie.
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It was, it was really exciting because you guys took a risk and again with donor money. But Charlie saw a bigger picture of like, okay, I see how this could be something that attracts even more young women to the movement. You know, using pop culture as kind of that gateway to hook them in and then be like, oh, by the way, I'm conservative.
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I mean, that was the whole thing, right? We, you know, we were saying amongst ourselves, but then obviously to everyone else is like, if Fox News and he had a baby, it would be Alex Clark. And we would love to tap into that with young women. And it worked. The most important thing was that that risk worked. And there were many projects that were like that over the years. But obviously you being one of the most successful things that, you know, you invest in yourself, you sacrificing basically yourself for an unknown outcome. Charlie doing that, the entire team, building a team and doing all of that. But it worked because your entire audience was 18 and 24 year old women. I mean, we talked about that so many times of this was the plan. We weren't sure what the outcome was going to be. And, you know, if you build it, they will come type of a thing.
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B
We all bet on ourselves. We all bet on ourselves.
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A
And it did. And it was incredible. It was a lot of work, right? It was every day, remember that production.
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B
Schedule that was like, I cried every single day. It was just grueling, like, hardly any sleep. Just like, is this gonna Work like, did I just ruin my life? You know, give up my entire radio career, number one rated show to move out here? And, like, what if nobody watches?
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A
And we started from zero, so started a brand new Instagram handle and everything else. And obviously you had your personal stuff, but you were changing your entire, you know, Persona. So, like, the public Persona to, like, the things that you cared most about. So, you know, looking back on it, it's like, of course that would work, you know, but at the time, you never know. You never know. And the thing that I love about Charlie and I know he loved about you was. And we would. We talked about this even up until just, like, weeks ago, which was that he always 100% believed in you and the way that you were moving your brand to work with the people who are listening and watching and the content to help the movement. And again, Charlie was always a person, has always been a person that if someone wants to invest themselves into the movement, he would do everything he possibly could to lift you up.
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B
He valued loyalty, and he was loyal, 100%. What were some of the biggest scandals or hurdles that Charlie had to overcome in the early days? Like, maybe a video went viral for the wrong reasons or there was a financial issue. Just, like something that you guys had.
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A
Big drama about during the 2016 campaign. Yeah, we had hosted the first big Trump rally ever here in Arizona, and Charlie was, like, right there helping with it the whole time. He had become super close with Don Jr. And some of his closest confidants who really had put the entire campaign on their shoulders. Because the RNC at the time wasn't, like, super pro Trump. A lot of the political establishment, political elites really hated Trump. They weren't doing anything to help him. And so, like, literally, Don and his closest allies weren't going out, and they had picked up Charlie. They had, like, Charlie was brilliant. They had gotten to know him pretty rapidly. And Charlie was, like, zipping across the country, like, helping Don one on one, like, talk to donors, you know, talk about stuff, do content, things like that. So a piece of content was created, and it was like a bowl fill Skittles. And it was something along the lines of, if one of these Skittles was poisonous, would you. Would you eat it? And the analogy was, like, letting one bad person in the country, you know.
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B
Oh, with illegal immigration. Okay.
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A
And at the time, that was, like, super controversial. Now it's not very controversial. Now that meme would fly and people would be like, yeah, 100%, like, 70% of the country would agree with it. Okay. At the time, it was like, this is somewhat racist. Like, da, da, da. Like, all this stuff, right? Like. Like, what is Don Jr? But we, like, we had produced that. So Charlie had had that meme done by one of our graphic designers at the time. And it was, like, super stress inducing because it was like.
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B
Because he didn't want to ruin his friendship with Don, probably. Yeah.
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A
He didn't want to, like, upset Don or the campaign or, you know, whatever. But it went, like, massively viral about this racial undertones or, like, all this stuff. Now you put that stuff out, like, nobody would even blink. But that was the world then. And it was like. I remember that week. It was just like, we were so stressed. Like, our whole lives were stressed. And we're like, we have to produce more content. We have to do more, like, to, like, you know, make this go away or whatever. And, like, now you can, like. Like, if Charlie was here right now, we would laugh. We did laugh about that, like, this last election. Cause we were talking about it. It's like how meaningless that feels now. But at the time, it was like our whole world was crashing down because this one meme that we had made.
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B
For Don, and he would never blink at some scandal like that now. Like, he would be. Wouldn't even phase him if that's a scandal, right?
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You look at that, you're like, that's not a scandal at all, but, like, it just shows, like, how much he cared. Like, how sweet it is. Like, he cared so much. Like, we cared so much. He never wanted to let down Don. And I tweeted this on Sunday is like, Don was like a big brother to Charlie. And, like, he. He loved him like a brother, and he cared about him, and he wanted to see his success was our success, and so on.
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B
Do you remember a time where you and Charlie had a massive disagreement on just how to react, run or manage the organization, maybe? And Charlie ended up being right.
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A
Charlie was right all the time. We disagreed a lot. The one thing I would say about this is that Charlie was such a humble human being that he wanted to have people around him that would challenge him, that would disagree that all this stuff he didn't have. Like, there's a lot of people who are CEOs and leaders, executive directors of things. They only want to be surrounded by yes men.
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B
Everybody did feel empowered around him and here to bring something to him, like, hey, I think this should change, or this wasn't right, or this didn't go well.
- [28:43]
A
He. He always has surrounded himself and so even in the early days where it was just like, you know, me or, you know, just a couple of people, you know, making decisions, now we have a lot, as, you know, we have, you know, dozens of people who are decision makers around here. But he, again, I would say the one thing about him was he was always so humble where there was, you know, if somebody disagreed, they didn't feel like they, they had to shut up. They had to. Like, I never felt that way. In fact, I felt like he appreciated the constant, like, hey, are you not sure if that will work? Or like, are you, are we sure we want to go that way? Or why don't we do it this way? He was always very sensitive to the outcomes that we had because he always knew what was going on.
- [29:25]
B
What do you mean?
- [29:26]
A
He wasn't like detached from the business, right? Oh, right again. Like again, until his last breath on earth, he was on campus doing some of the very same things that we were doing in the beginning, albeit less popular back then, right now, probably more.
- [29:40]
B
You're saying he was always extremely invested and present in the business, no matter how famous he became and all the other things that he could have had going on.
- [29:48]
A
Yeah, I mean, he could have stopped, right? He could have just like, said, you know, I don't need to go on campus anymore. I can just sit in the safety of my house and do my show. And like, he could have, like, he didn't do that. He could have easily said, you know what, we don't need to spend all this money on a high school program. Like, we don't need to do that. Like, we did. We didn't. Most organizations in the D.C. beltway, that's why they never grew, is they just stopped investing because they would just pay themselves or they would pay, you know, a bunch of their friends and raise more. When they raised more money, they would just pay their people more instead of doing the work for what it costs. And that was never the plan. It was always growing things from the ground up. And people see that now more like people. A lot of people didn't even realize all this work that Charlie did, had no idea all this work that Charlie put his name to that he was invested in. They knew him at first radio show, obviously, and listening on a day to day basis and his great takes and everything else, but his, his capacity as a really effective CEO, a really invested CEO, I think is the most critical to truly understand.
- [30:53]
B
And so he had a vision for something that you at first thought was a bad idea.
- [30:56]
A
I would say half the things that we've done haven't worked out. I mean, we fail all the time.
- [31:01]
B
It was trial and error.
- [31:02]
A
Trial and error, fail early, fail often. You know, there are ideas all the time that of, like, shows, for example, ideas like. Like, you are a huge success story. Right. But there were lots of shows that failed. There are lots of ideas that didn't do well that were like, oh, well, we need to scrap that. And in fact, like, one of those was. Was we did a debate night with Charlie Kirk. That was. That was here. And it was, again, a safer environment, which was at our headquarters, filming, debating some of the top, top minds that we'd like to bring in with Charlie. But we realized, like, hey, this just doesn't work.
- [31:39]
B
Well, the truth is, is that behind the scenes, it was hard for us to book people. Nobody wanted to come down.
- [31:43]
A
They didn't want to come down to our headquarters. They knew he'd win, but it was. Yeah, they knew he'd win. He was smart enough that. That's the thing. Charlie was like. A lot of people I've seen say, oh, well, of course, Charlie Kirk can be like a college kid. And debates and all that. We tried to invite in the most brilliant leftist minds. They wouldn't do. They were just as equally as afraid to come in. And so that's when it was like the pivot was like, oh, well, I'm. We should just lean in more on the campus tour stuff instead of trying to, you know, graduate beyond that, keep doing the same things that work. Right. And. And he's always right about that. Like, he was. Oh, and I. I appreciate that about him, was that he never wanted to quit doing the things that he knew were the most impactful.
- [32:26]
B
Candace put out. Her original video that she put out when Charli first had died was just about, like, the early days. Her friendship with Charlie and all their adventures and everything. What is the story that you have about Charlie and Candace that Candace didn't share?
- [32:41]
A
Oh, well, there's a lot. I put one out that was right away. I was there with them. It was like, you know, the three amigos. I was with Charlie and Candace when we went to TMZ that day with Candace and Kanye, and Kanye was immediately obsessed with Candace. I woke up super early to Candace's phone call. I was like, oh, my gosh. Got this tweet from Kanye, and so call Charlie. And by the next week, we found ourselves. We were in Calabasas where Kanye had all his production, everything. He was living with Kim at the time, and they Were married and everything else. Basically, we took Candace there and they had their first meeting that was there. And Candace had mentioned that she loved Chick Fil A. And in the conversation, there was the conversation about she liked it with, I think it was honey mustard or whatever it was. I don't know, I can't remember. And we had also talked about liking chicken minis. And so he had shown up the next morning with like, he had driven through Chick Fil a's drive thru by himself.
- [33:49]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [33:50]
A
And had bought like a thousand chicken minis. So I had put like, mustard on them. Like it was like, just for Candace. Yeah, just for Candace. But, like, he had totally, like, fumbled up, but like, there was all like, these inedible, like, chicken minis that had like, like honey mustard or mustard or whatever it was all over them. I was like, wow, that was like, that's like true love from the very beginning.
- [34:11]
B
And was Kim there when you guys had this meeting?
- [34:13]
A
They met at Kanye's house at some point with that, which was kind of like, again, this was, you know, before everything. Like, everyone had come out. And I just remember how excited Charlie was because, you know, Kanye had brought all these, you know, all these Yeezys and everything else. And so I had given Charlie some very particular Yeezys. And so Charlie had worn those around for, like, a long time after that. I mean, this is just one of many, you know, Charlie being there stories. But he was there the whole time, you know, to support and love on the direction things were going with Candace.
- [34:53]
B
Are there any other secret a list, celebrity stories involving Charlie that nobody's ever heard?
- [34:58]
A
Yeah, a few. I mean, there were a few that, like, were really special people who. Who early on really leaned in on Charlie when they didn't have to. One of those was Chris Pratt. And again, I don't wanna put a huge target on the man for all that. I think he came out this week and said some really nice things about Charlie, so I think we're okay. But Chris actually started following Turning Point way before Turning Point was famous in any kind of way. A known entity. And we were like, oh, my gosh, we were blown away. And so I remember specifically we reached out. Charlie reached out on Twitter or Instagram, it might have been Instagram. And was just made that connection, like, hey, thank you so much. We'd love to talk. And it was very obvious in the response from Chris right away that he had followed Charlie, was really thought Charlie was great. And so that was like a mind blowing experience at that Time. Because it was like, nobody. That was a list. This was right after he had become, like, he was famous already from Parks and Recs and stuff like that, but he became ultra famous with Guardians of the Galaxy and things like that. And this was just after that. So this is like, in the mirror, just following Guardians of the Galaxy. And so we were just like, blown away, like, oh, my gosh. Because that was, like, the first time, like, anyone. That's like, a list. A list Marvel, you know, all that stuff. And he was so nice and so nice to Charlie.
- [36:27]
B
Was there anyone else?
- [36:28]
A
So, like, half the NFL's quarterbacks would constantly be texting Charlie and he.
- [36:33]
B
And unfortunately, we didn't ever get a Travis Kelce endorsement.
- [36:36]
A
Yeah, Travis was not, I don't think one of those people, but there was. There was like, like, half the quarterback. I'm not even kidding. Like, half of them. When the one person, I would say he really valued their banter and going back and forth a lot was Kirk Cousins. Kirk has been kind of a known, you know, Christian and. And things like that. And I think he was like, you know, they were definitely big fans of one another and they had talked a lot, but, like, I'm not even kidding, like, half the guys, like, half the quarterbacks in the NFL. Former. I mean, Brett Favre, so many others.
- [37:07]
B
Yeah.
- [37:08]
A
Had communicated with Charlie on. On a regular basis, including, you know, our favorite kicker on. On Kansas City, who spent time down here, Harrison. Yeah.
- [37:16]
B
By the time Charlie became a dad, you'd already been a seasoned dad. You have three kids. When Charlie was kind of embarking on fatherhood, did he ever come to you asking you for advice or tips?
- [37:27]
A
Yeah, I just remember because we were going, going, going, going, going, going, going all the time. Charlie was a guy that was like, before anything else, was on a plane 24 7. Yeah. I think President Trump said he was 300 days a year. It was more than that. He was in the early days of Turning Point, before he was married and had kids. He was on a plane probably, like, no joke, 330, 350 days out of the year. So when you create that mentality and that habit, right? Like, you're constantly going. It's hard to change gears and to stop. Right. Like, it really is. And I, you know, I had balanced work, life, you know, I think pretty well with going a lot and trying to, like, keep up with Charlie. Quite honestly, like, all of us here will tell you and agree that we just constantly were trying to keep up with Charlie. Like, Charlie was always Demanding excellence out of all of us. But one of the things that we had talked about a lot was, you know, being home on the nights and weekends for your family. Right. Like, being there that he definitely took to heart. And so the moment that he got married, he was, you know, we talked about Shabbat and him taking that time off. And I don't know how much you guys have talked about this, but where he was making that time for himself with God, but also with his family. So basically, Friday night till Saturday night, it was like, as soon as we got through all of the media for the week and his show in particular, after his show was running, it was like he was able to log off all social media, all devices, and just focus on, again, his relationship with God and then also his wife and then later his kids.
- [39:10]
B
Did he ever share with you what his parenting philosophy was or what he envisioned, like, as his kids got older? Like, this is how I want to parent.
- [39:16]
A
Charlie was a big athlete, love athletics. I think his vision for, you know, his kids was, you know, lean in on the athletic prowess that, you know, I think he would say those kids have great genetics between him and Erica.
- [39:32]
B
Erica and Charlie are both gifted athletes.
- [39:34]
A
They're both gifted athletes. Right. Erica being a baller. Charlie was. I mean, I actually posted these clips, I don't know if you've seen it, of his high school reels from basketball. He was really good. He was a great player. I mean, he's tall. Right. He could have easily gone if he hadn't done Turning Point. No one ever talked about this, but he could have easily gone and played college basketball somewhere, had he gone to college somewhere. But I think he had always envisioned. He loved sports. Right. He loved the idea of. Of sports. So I think that that would have played a big part in the conversations we had. He also, like, he was a much stronger and much more disciplined father probably than I am, like, with kids with iPads and things like that.
- [40:16]
B
So his kids are not allowed screen time.
- [40:19]
A
They're not screen time. People like, I've probably allowed my kids to be. So we've had a few conversations about that. You know, obviously it's still in the early years, so, yeah, things could change. Yeah, things could change. You could change. So it's like, not hold that as, like, his example, but I think he was really interested. And obviously, you know, he's a brilliant mind that was interested in reading. Charlie was really into the. The philosophical leaders that had developed his worldview that developed Turning Point.
- [40:50]
B
Yeah.
- [40:50]
A
And I think he wanted to Instill that with his kids, for sure.
- [40:53]
B
What was Charlie like before and after Maha?
- [40:57]
A
All the same, I think Maha told Charlie he was right about a lot since the moment I met Charlie Kirk, he was always an extraordinarily healthy eater. Always. He never wanted to eat anything really, outside of really clean vegetables and meat. And oftentimes early on and then never, like, partook in soda or things that were like. That would kill you.
- [41:24]
B
And didn't drink.
- [41:25]
A
Didn't drink.
- [41:26]
B
And so we would have to make sure that we had little office Halloween parties and stuff like that.
- [41:31]
A
When he was not here, he was super anti drinking. Yeah. Which is. Which is. He's always a great example of that. And he took, like, a lot of offense to when people would suggest that, you know, he drink in private or things like that. And he never did. Like, that just never happened. He never. I was around him, probably logged more hours. He was never, never, ever, ever was into that. But he was always a really healthy eater, like freakishly healthy. The man never drank any bad things for it. Like, everyone knows about the tea now, obviously.
- [42:02]
B
Yeah. The Starbucks drink.
- [42:03]
A
And he was a big coffee, like, very clean coffee drinker for a long time. But, you know, the teas and water and healthy eating. He had plates. We kind of joked on the show about this is like, he would eat plates of vegetables. So we would go places and after, especially afterwards, we'd unwind and he would order like, literally an entire plate of steamed broccoli.
- [42:25]
B
Oh, my God.
- [42:26]
A
Just be piled up and then he would just go through and eat the whole thing. And then he would, like, move on to a plate of, you know, that was like, usually, you know, some kind of. Some kind of meat and then like all stacked up and he did all that, but it was always very clean.
- [42:40]
B
One thing that Charlie brought up on his show, which I had never heard, and I'm very, very interested to hear more about, is Charlie actually said that Erica was more conservative than he was, that he was a moderate compared to Erica. In what way specifically, is Erica Kirk more conservative than Charlie?
- [42:59]
A
Let me just start by saying this. Charlie and Erica, in my opinion, have always been one. You have some people who are married to one another and they disagree on a lot of things, even politically or religiously or whatever. They were very united on almost everything. I've never seen them not united on specific topics. Right. Like, there's a lot of people. I mean, look, I mean, you have Kellyanne Conway with her husband. You have all these different people who have disagreements all the time. They've always been so complimentary to one another on that front that I just don't think that there's very much wiggle room between the both of them. And so I think that's what allowed Charlie to be able to say she's more conservative than I am. Because as conservative as you might view Charlie, she agreed with him on everything that I've ever seen. You know, the one thing I would say is this, is that Erica's from Arizona, you know, and Charlie's from the Midwest. You know, a lot of Midwesterners and like Charlie would tell you this himself is like, are pretty moderate on some specific issues, you know, especially on immigration and things like that. I don't want to speak for Erica, but she's from Arizona and that's like an issue that, like, we're really, we're really big on here. Right. And so I can see him saying something along those lines. Right. Which is that, well, she's firmly grounded on immigration, the pro life issues, especially with her faith backing and everything else. And by virtue of her being from here versus from somewhere like the Midwest or New York or something.
- [44:31]
B
Are there specific strengths that Erica has that Charlie didn't necessarily. That you think are going to make for really unique, exciting leadership at Turning Point?
- [44:39]
A
Yeah, I mean, Erica, like we've been talking about, you know, Charlie brought the young men. I think Erica is going to be an incredibly impactful voice for young women. I think it goes beyond that, but I think she's going to continue the legacy of Charlie with young men, too. But I think now is the time, and this goes along with you too, is like, this is the time to convert all the young women. This is the time to speak directly to the young woman in America that's 18 to 40 and say, hey, you are leaving high school or leaving college. You're starting a family. Like, we need strong men in this world. We need to find that heart for the family and not be trying to kick that down the road and delaying that. I think her voice and her example is going to be able to do that.
- [45:24]
B
Yeah, me too.
- [45:26]
A
And then again, tying in what your entire premises around Maha, and there's so many young women and young moms who. That's their political dynamic. That's their single issue vote at this point, which is like making sure that they're coming into a clean lifestyle, a clean home, making sure that their kids aren't being fed or given or vaccinated with the wrong things. Those are all really predominant issues that are dominating culture right now.
- [45:58]
B
Yeah.
- [45:58]
A
And so that's really important, I think, to have a spokesperson that can really speak to those things. And I actually think that Erica can speak to a lot of that in a unique and different way that. That, you know, that's even more suited than where Charlie was. Right. And Charlie's voice is going to continue to live on forever. We're not going to let that quit. In particular, the things that he cared about and he spoke so well to. I think she's going to have her own strengths.
- [46:20]
B
Megyn Kelly dropped a very, very interesting story about how in the days leading up to Charlie's assassination, Jezebel, which is a media outlet on the left, had put out, like, a witch curse on Charlie and that Erica was terrified about this and Charlie was worried and that they had even asked a pastor or a priest to pray over them, like, the night before Charlie went to Utah. Can you share anything about that? Have you heard anything?
- [46:46]
A
They were definitely worried about that. Charlie was definitely worried. I mean, aware of those things. And takes every. Charlie took every bit of media that was out there that was centered on him and focused on him, you know, very seriously, which, like, as a threat. Right.
- [47:02]
B
It's just interesting to me, and I guess maybe that speaks to their faith background that they didn't see that as, like, something so stupid, like, oh, brother. But they. They took it serious enough that they were like, no, we need to have, like, a person of faith pray over us and your safety.
- [47:15]
A
Yeah. I mean, in general. And I'll just say this is like, as long as I've known Charlie, I think he always was focused on and believed that there are dark forces in this world. He would call them that. He would call them dark, you know, sinister forces in this world and people that were dark and had, you know, really bad intentions, that. That comes, like, literally from the devil. Right. And I think you believe that 100% fully. So when people were out there having conversations that were dark in nature, I mean, I think he took those things very, very seriously.
- [47:50]
B
I think it is so weird that the entire time I've worked here, it's been like, charlie Kirk is a shill for Israel. All this, like. And people hated him for that. And then as soon as he is murdered, it's like, charlie Kirk is anti Israel now. People hate him for that. I'm like, overnight.
- [48:08]
A
It's always been like that, though, Alex. Odd on both sides. Like, there are tons of times where people have called Charlie anti Israel or pro Israel, and it was always both sides saying that. And I think that's how, you know, Charlie was always himself. Whenever you have both sides saying those things, it's them trying to control, again, a personality or a Persona or a narrative. And that's how, you know, he was his real man is like you have both sides saying those things all the time, you know? And it wasn't just that issue. There's tons of other issues, like pro Trump, anti Trump. There was, like, in the run up to the 2024 election that was somewhat bothersome, was there was people that were like, Charlie Kirk's a shill for DeSantis, or Charlie Kirk is, you know, way pro Trump. And those things were happening at the exact same time. Right. Charlie was always supportive of President Trump and him running for election, but people wanted to hijack those narratives. You had different issues like that that always existed all throughout. And it's just two sides of some issue, right. And people wanting to control, really, one of the biggest voice or the biggest Personas out in media life. And again, that's how, you know, Charlie was his own man, is when you see both of those things, that tells you that he's probably not either of those things.
- [49:24]
B
On that day, September 10th in Utah, do you feel like Charlie's security team did everything to the best of their ability, or were there mistakes made?
- [49:33]
A
First and foremost, it's, like, really bothering me that there are people out there even suggesting that Charlie's security team was somehow, you know, lackluster or involved, like, insanely involved with something like, absolutely not. The Charlie security team we've known for many, many years, they are like brothers with Charlie. We have an elite force of people who are supporting Charlie at all times. And had they even known or suspected that there would be even an element of danger that day in Utah, they wouldn't even let him out of the car, off the plane, you know, into public life. Every single event that's held is a combination of our security team working with the local police. In this case, on university campuses, it's the university police. The university police department is responsible. There's a line that is drawn right, where there's personal protection for Charlie versus protection for the campus in this case, or if it's out in the world, the city or whatever. In this case, for Utah Valley University, their responsibility was to protect the campus, all of the perimeter, rooftops, everything else. We, when we go out in public, our team handles those things where there isn't a police department to work with or do that with. So whether it's a drone program or covering all those Angles or a perimeter, they do all that. But when you're having to work with partners who are responsible for those elements, you're depending on them. There are some elements here where it's like there are people asking, well, why wasn't this that. Well, that wasn't. Charlie's team would have done anything and everything, particularly if it was completely within our purview. And they did an incredible and impeccable job at all times, always covering Charlie. I mean, they were the first people that were trying to save Charlie's life when he was assassinated and doing all of that. They love that man inside and out, right? And they would do the same, not just for Charlie, but for anyone on our team. And they would take a bullet, jump in front of a car, do anything that they possibly could. And so we're praying for them. We hope that everybody is praying for them because they, you know, they're being unfairly targeted by people who online who are making suggestions, like really wild, crazy suggestions that are not even possibly remotely true. And yeah, that's really hard on people who are that love and care so much for a person. And again too, I mean, I feel bad for other officers that were involved with this, right. That were maybe part of the department and things like that. Obviously, there's some really significant and dramatic lessons to be learned that are coming out of this. A really competent drone program, for example, would have saved Charlie's life. Right. And that should be the standard protocol on every single campus. Without question. There should be eyes on every rooftop at all times with everything. We'll see what happens with the investigation and what comes out on all of that and how this tragedy unfolded. The guy is in custody and he's going to be going to trial and all this is going to come out. So we're waiting just like everybody else to find out, you know, what happened and how it happened. And I think there's no one that's more motivated to get answers than, than everyone here.
- [52:57]
B
What did Charlie envision for Turning Point USA for when he was old?
- [53:00]
A
We talked about that a lot. We knew, like, I kind of aged out, right? Like, I'm, I'm like the oldest guy at Turning Point, which, which is kind of funny because I was like always the oldest, you know, and, you know, survivability here is like, you can't have 40 something year olds going to campus at Turning Point USA. And Charlie was well on his way to. Even though he's still young, we probably still had another 10 years of Charlie on campus and doing Things he knew that at some point that's where you have faith that came up. That's where you have action that came up. Part of the reason why I shifted over to action was, hey, the big boy stuff that we have to do on the political side, it, that's not age inhibitive, right? That, that's, that's almost beyond college and high school. Right. So you have to start working with people who are, you know, you know, middle aged and above and seniors to help organize.
- [53:55]
B
So, I mean, you're also like the encyclopedia of the Republican Party. Like, if you want somebody to nerd out on like polling and I don't even know, random old races and bury Goldwater and all this stuff, it's Tyler.
- [54:08]
A
I'm nothing compared to Charlie. Charlie was like, again, Charlie had like a photographic memory. So, you know, he, he always knew more than I felt like I did on possibly anything at all times. And, and that's, I think that's also what was so cool about Charlie is he was able to do it all. He could do everything that we're doing on campus, plus all the political stuff, plus handle the Trump administration and all the changes that were happening there, plus, you know, all the individual unique personalities, like we mentioned famous people. But there's also organizational leaders that would talk to him and look to him for advice all the time. He quite literally did it all, Alex. That's why I think I miss him so much is like, there's nobody that's going to be able to fill those shoes, to be able to have those conversations with. But that's the torch that we've got to carry now and have those. Like, that's the opportunity for you to step up and for so many others that are influential in every space to say, Charlie did this and he was able to do all those different things. No expectation to be as good as Charlie was at them, but for us to, to be able to blend into those things more and lean on one another, I think that's what he wants.
- [55:11]
B
Yeah, it is. If you could give one remedy to heal a sick culture, physically, emotionally or spiritually, what would it be?
- [55:19]
A
I think looking at the example that Charlie gave is he was just so balanced when it came to eating healthy, being spiritually healthy. I mean, I think that that analogy between your, your souls, your, your spiritual health is so good with your physical health is that you need to have proper. And Charlie believed that fully. Right. Like your body's a temple and you should take care of it and you should be very cognizant of how you treat it, both, both physically and spiritually. I think that's the greatest example that he gave and he lived that. And I'm telling you, since the day I met Charlie Kirk, since he was like barely 20 years old, just barely come out of his teenage years, all the way through his life that ended so tragically early, he always treated himself with that much respect.
- [56:10]
B
And I think somewhere deep down, subconsciously, he had this feeling that there wasn't a lot of time or there wasn't enough time. Like he did not waste his time.
- [56:22]
A
Isn't that interesting?
- [56:22]
B
Yes.
- [56:23]
A
Isn't that interesting? Like the way that he treated himself is that he was always go, go, go.
- [56:28]
B
Yes. Like he didn't sit around and want to binge. Netflix. Netflix. He was like, every moment of every day I am with my family, I'm pouring into my kids, I'm pouring into my wife, I'm pouring into my business, I'm pouring into the country, you know, the people around me, how can I help somebody else? Like, is just so beyond. And he lived so unlike anybody else. And that's why I think he is, is such an example for all of us. It's just unbelievable the way he thought. So I'm really looking forward to having Erica and just, you know, our state of the art basketball court or whatever she's going to put in. I'm just kidding, I have no idea.
- [57:06]
A
But truly, and I think she's going to carry that on that legacy on so well. Like I said, she and Charlie are just one human being. They really are. They're one person. They relied on each other so much for all of those things. But Charlie, like, yeah, you look back on it now and I've been thinking about this all last two weeks is how he really lived his life like that. He just never quit, quit, quit, quit, quit. He was always happy. We dealt with a lot of crazy stuff. Like again, we went through Covid as an organization where we took zero government money and had to keep everyone employed and everything. Like extraordinarily difficult moments that would have been easy to see some stress kind of peek through. And he never did. He really lives his life the way that you saw him, like in public space. And he was always so good to everyone, me included. Like, I'll be the first to tell you, like my life is innumerably blessed because I knew Charlie Kirk, that he poured into me, that he let me do all the crazy stuff that I wanted to do at Turning Point all the time. Similar to how you feel about about all your. All your media ventures. And so I'm just incredibly grateful that we have that and that legacy that we can always hearken back to and, and really live up to. We have to live up to it. So.
- [58:25]
B
Me too. Thank you, Tyler, for giving us the Turning Point history lesson and. And just some stuff about Charlie that we hadn't heard.
- [58:32]
A
No, we love him. We miss him every day. We love Charlie. We're gonna keep living up to that.
- [58:40]
B
Okay, so this was an extra episode that I wasn't planning on doing until last minute. So now tomorrow you are going to get my interview with somebody who has known Charlie since child and has been there for his entire faith journey and transformation and can really speak to that, as well as Charlie's views on education and homeschooling and the Department of Education, why he thought that it should be abolished, all kinds of things. So I think that the homeschool moms in my audience are really going to love that episode in particular and those that just want to hear more about Charlie's faith and relationship with Christ. This week is a special week, but normally I drop episodes every Monday and Thursday, 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. And I focus on how to heal a sick culture physically, emotionally or spiritually. Every single guest that I have on has their own remedy to do just that. And we really focus on the Maha side of things and all sorts of sense of the word. So hopefully you will hang out with us beyond the Charlie Kirk legacy episodes. But it was important to me this week to really spend some time thinking and remembering the best boss ever. If you're enjoying what you're hearing this week, please take some time. Leave a 5 star review for us on social media, Spotify or Apple. Subscribe to the real Alex Clark YouTube channel. These are all really easy, free ways to support the show and keep us going. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.