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Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
How Do We Know The Resurrection Happened Or That The Bible Is True? | Dr. George Barna
01:02:22
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- [00:00]
Alex Clark
How many people in America today say they're Christians and how many actually are?
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Dr. George Barna
So you've got 66% who would say, yeah, I'm a Christian. But then it narrows down to about 3% who actually meet the criteria that Jesus gave us.
- [00:15]
Alex Clark
That is a wake up call.
- [00:17]
Dr. George Barna
I don't believe in God because I've read the Bible and he's a God of wrath. Who would want an angry God who would kill their own son for other people's bad choices? Only a loving God.
- [00:55]
Alex Clark
How do you convince a skeptic that God exists or that Jesus died on the cross and rose again three days later? Dr. George Barna, a veteran researcher and director of the Cultural Research center at Arizona Christian University, has spent decades studying faith, worldview and cultural trends in America. Today we're diving into a topic that's increasingly relevant in 2025, how to convince skeptics that Christianity is is the one true religion and that Jesus is the only way to heaven. This is a short, sweet and to the point episode that will leave you on the edge of your seat motivated to evangelize. Watch this episode on the Culture Apothecary, Spotify or Real Alex Clark on YouTube. Follow the show on Instagram ultra apothecary or me ealalexclark. It would mean the world if you could just pause for 30 seconds. Leave a five star review on Apple or Spotify. Please welcome Dr. George Barna to Culture Apothecary. According to new research that you did, millions of people admitted that they could be persuaded that God exists. So we were originally, I feel like not too long ago told that like 6 out of 10 adults do not believe that the God of the Bible exists. But then this new work that you did says that when these people were followed up with one quarter actually ended up retracting their doubts. So what does that tell us?
- [02:12]
Dr. George Barna
Well, Americans don't know what to think about spirituality. We live in a culture right now where everybody thinks I'm the arbiter of my own reality. And so I'm going to determine truth for my own life. I'm going to determine if there is a God for my life or supreme being or some kind of higher power. I'm going to define its parameters, I'm going to identify its characteristics according to what I think it should have, and then I'm going to interact with it. However is comfortable and makes me feel secure. So that's the culture that we're growing up in now that's radically different than the culture I grew up in back in the Stone Age, where we actually read the Bible, went to church, believed in the God of the Bible, believed that Jesus died, rose and died for our sins. I mean, all of those kinds of traditional Christian beliefs, that mindset, that profile doesn't really exist very widely in America anymore because we become pretty full of ourselves thinking that we're the center of everything.
- [03:18]
Alex Clark
We've kind of made ourselves our own God.
- [03:20]
Dr. George Barna
Absolutely.
- [03:21]
Alex Clark
But people don't realize they're doing that right. How many people in America today say they're Christians and how many actually are?
- [03:29]
Dr. George Barna
It really depends how you define it. And in our research, we define it many different ways just to see what kind of answers come out. But one way that I like to think about is if you look at the people who say they're Christians, that's about 66 or 67% of adults in this country. But what did Jesus say was the key thing? Well, become a disciple of his. So what does that mean? If you go through the scriptures, you find there are six times when he spoke very specifically about what it takes to be a disciple. So in John 8, he said, you'll be my disciple if you obey my teachings. In John 13, he said, you'll be my disciple if you love other disciples. In John 15, he said, you'll be my disciple if you produce a lot of spiritual fruit. In other words, make disciples. In Luke 14, he had three things right in a row that he said, and the first of those was, you cannot be my disciple unless you put God first in all things. And then a few verses later, he said, and by the way, you cannot be my disciple unless you. You're willing to pick up your cross and carry it and follow me, which in that Roman context means, you know, know who the prevailing authority is and pay attention, do their. Their will. And of course, in Rome, that would have been Caesar, but in the Bible, that would be Jesus or God. And then he ended up in. In Luke 14 by saying, and by the way, you cannot be my disciple unless you surrender everything to be my disciple. So going by those six characteristics, if you measure that, we just finished a survey where we looked at that, and what we found is that only about 3% of adults in America fit those criteria as disciples of Jesus. So you've got 66% who would say, yeah, I'm a Christian. But then it narrows down to about 3% who actually meet the criteria that Jesus gave us. And there's all kinds of groups in between that you could look at people who we might think of as born Again, Christians, you know, theologically speaking, individuals who say, when I die, I know I'll go to heaven, but only because I've confessed my sins and accepted Jesus Christ as my savior. Well, that's 32 or 33% of the population, but then it drops all the way down to 3%. Really, disciples, okay.
- [05:53]
Alex Clark
And you know what comes to mind? The road is narrow. That is what comes to mind. For me, that is shocking that that much of America thinks I'm going to heaven. I'm a Christian, I believe in God, and really, if you're looking at the criteria of the Bible of who those people are, only 3%, roughly might make it to heaven. I mean, you know, obviously we don't know.
- [06:15]
Dr. George Barna
We're not the judge. God is right.
- [06:17]
Alex Clark
But like, we're just estimating, right? That is shocking. And a wake up call. Your research also often highlights the reasons people doubt Christianity. So what are the top reason skeptics question faith?
- [06:31]
Dr. George Barna
The same thing that children tell us. I wrote a book called Raising Spiritual Champions about how do you disciple children? Because whether or not you're going to become a disciple really depends on what happens when you're a child spiritually. So in looking at that, one of the things that we discovered is that children say they know their parents love them, but they can't really trust their parents. And we went back and said, well, how does that work? Why is that? And they said, well, you know, my parents say one thing, but they do another. That hypocrisy of, you know, do as I say, not as I do. Children see it, adults see it. And so when people are looking at Christians, they're saying, well, you're supposed to be loving, you're supposed to be kind, you're supposed to be generous, you're supposed to be this, that and the other thing. And I don't think you are. So that's actually the biggest detriment is that Christians are unable to disciple other people because non Christians don't trust them. They look at their lifestyle and they say, I don't think you're any different than me, so why should you be telling me how to live? So that's, that's a big obstacle we have to overcome. Another one, it has to do with the Bible. You know, how would you figure out how to be Christlike, how to become his disciple? The Bible's the best place. It's his words to us, God's words. He's trying to help us. He knows we're a bunch of ninnies. So he put it on paper for us to make it as easy as possible. But most people in America don't trust the Bible. They don't believe that the Bible is true. So that's another major obstacle. It's like, well, where are they going to go? What we know is that when we ask people, we just did a survey last week where we talked about how would you figure out what truth is? 77% of Americans said they would turn to their feelings. Oh, you know, only 18% of Americans consistently rely on the Bible for their moral decision making.
- [08:23]
Alex Clark
Only 18%.
- [08:24]
Dr. George Barna
18% less than 1 out of 5 people. So, you know, there again, we've got another big obstacle. We've got to get people to understand why they can trust the Bible, why they should trust the Bible and read the Bible, turn to the Bible in order to make those kind of choices.
- [08:40]
Alex Clark
I mean, the Bible is infallible. Human beings are not. So when you are saying that the majority of Americans are admitting, oh, I just trust my feelings on things, I go to myself to solve my problems. I mean, this is why relationships are crumbling. Geez, what a scary place to be. And just, I mean, yeah, there, there would be no path to success.
- [09:03]
Dr. George Barna
Well, when you, when you look at all the institutions, particularly the family, that's falling apart, it's because we don't trust other people. We can't find truth. Our truth is so flexible. It's always changing. You know, we found the 67% of Americans say that there's no such thing as absolute moral truth. Truth is always dependent on the individual and their circumstances. It's not at all the case. You know, when it comes to morality, there are absolute morals and God gave those to us in his word. But if we're not reading it, if we're not trusting it, if we're looking at other people as kind of the living Bible for our life because we're not going to read it. So we'll look at what Christians are doing and they don't see any difference. And yeah, we've got major problems.
- [09:51]
Alex Clark
So if Christians hear that list that you just gave, how can Christians address those doubts effectively?
- [09:57]
Dr. George Barna
What does it take to disciple somebody? Because we're doing a lot of work on that. And one of the things we found is that it's not about what you say, it's about who you are. And so that discipleship process, if it's going to be effective, has to start with a relationship. You have to know me, you have to trust me. I have to invest a lot of my time in Our relationship. And then what do we do? We talk. It's not about me yelling at you, but the Bible says. The Bible says if you don't do that, you're a sinner, you're a wretched sinner, you're going to hell. No, that's not how it works. Because we have a relationship. A relationship means I care about you, I want the best for you, and I want to do everything I can. That's going to be the best for you. So how do we do that? We do it through conversation. What I would call Socratic dialogue, which means that I'm not even going to come to our, our meeting, our dinner or whatever and say to you, this is the way it is. This is truth. This is what you must believe. I'm going to start out by asking you questions because I need to understand what are you thinking? Where are you coming from? Because I can't really help you. I can't care for you in the way that I need to as a disciple of Jesus, unless I know your starting point. So I've got to ask the questions about. Well, you know, you said you were struggling with money. You know, what's the nature of the struggle? You know, why are you struggling in that way? Have you ever thought about this? I mean, I'm just going to try to get you to think about biblical principles simply by asking you questions and letting you come to those conclusions on your own. Why? Because if you come to those conclusions on your own, you're going to own that as your own thought process. You're not buying my philosophy of life. You're developing your own, one that you feel you can buy into, you can trust, you can live by. And that's what we want to do. So it's that continual back and forth with you. And we're not going to solve everything in one dinner, one coffee break, one conversation.
- [12:00]
Alex Clark
It's a continuing relationship.
- [12:02]
Dr. George Barna
That's why it's a relationship, is because it keeps going, you know, as opposed to maybe a sermon, you know, or a class or a, a radio program or something like that. That's a one shot deal.
- [12:17]
Alex Clark
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- [12:56]
Dr. George Barna
All.
- [12:56]
Alex Clark
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- [14:37]
Dr. George Barna
Completely. The research that we did, we went, we went out, we did a big national survey with senior pastors and one of the opening questions was how effective do you think your church is in ministry? We found that more than four out of five of them said they're very effective, highly effective, completely effective. You know, there was a scale and so they're way up at the upper end of the scale. More than four out of five say, okay, whatever. Now why do you say that? And what we found is that most pastors across the country have five factors that they evaluate. How many people show up, how much money is raised, how many programs are offered, how many staff people have been hired, and how much square footage has been built out. And they look at those numbers every week. And if those five numbers are bigger than they were 52 weeks ago, the expression that most of them use is, we are a healthy and growing church.
- [15:31]
Alex Clark
Right? Yeah.
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Dr. George Barna
Now, my reaction to them is, look, I'm a research guy. I'm a sociologist, a methodologist. I'm glad you're measuring stuff that's critical because you get what you measure, but because you get what you measure, if you measure the wrong stuff, you're going to get the wrong stuff. You only measure what you think is important. So what you're telling me is that the most important things in ministry is how many people are showing up, how much money they're giving, whether or not they're spending time on the campus. If you can keep expanding the campus. Jesus didn't die for any of those things. And so if your job as a pastor is to facilitate discipling people, you're measuring the wrong stuff. So, yeah, I completely agree with you. It's like we've got to rethink the entire model of what we're doing because it's not working. And as you know, the definition of his insanity is keep doing the same thing over and over again, expect different results. That's what the church in America does. We can demonstrably prove that the church is ineffective, the local church is ineffective. We have a shrinking number of Christians. We have almost no disciples. Hey, let's keep doing what we've been doing.
- [16:40]
Alex Clark
Yeah, Yikes. And how is it looking for Gen Z in the church?
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Dr. George Barna
Gen Z is interesting because it's a generation that what you find generally, generationally, is that every generation is a reaction to their parents generation. And so you've got Gen Z, who basically are a reaction to the millennials. Now, the millennials didn't want anything to do with God. They didn't want anything to do with the local church. They don't read the Bible, they don't pray, they don't do any of that stuff. Gen Z's coming in. Suddenly we see a group of young people who are really interested in spirituality.
- [17:17]
Alex Clark
I saw this week an article come out saying that Gen Z is obsessed with Catholicism, that they're really liking the traditional aspect, that they're really rejecting more of this, like non denominational Protestant. Like it's too lax for them. Like they're like, well, if I'm gonna go to church, I want it to be like really, really formal. I think they feel like they're getting something more out of that. So like the Catholic Church is growing a lot?
- [17:42]
Dr. George Barna
Not really.
- [17:43]
Alex Clark
Oh, okay, tell us.
- [17:44]
Dr. George Barna
Yeah, I mean, it's kind of state stable. In fact, what we're seeing is that the religions in America right now that are growing are non Christian religions. And whoever wrote that article, I would, I would debate with a little bit in terms of, you know, really, do they want all that structure? They do want some structure, yes. But what we also find is, remember they're coming into a culture that says feelings are everything. There's no absolute moral truth. So you got to feel your way through every moment of every day. And so the fastest growing religion in America right now is Buddhism. Judaism is growing, other Eastern faiths are growing, and of course the other one that keeps growing is no faith at all. Yeah, that's from 20 up to 23% right now.
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Alex Clark
But where the heck is Buddhism coming from?
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Dr. George Barna
Well, because it's about feelings and goodness. You see, we have this ridiculous idea that human beings are good. And so what Buddhism pushes is you need to be kind, you need to be compassionate, you need to be good. And the only way to do that is you keep working at it because of course you're going to be reincarnated. And so when you come back next time, you want to come back as a better person. So start working on that now so that you know you've got that flow happening in your life. We find that much like Mormonism, you know, the Mormons tout how much growth they have. And there are probably about 2 million new Mormons that come into the Mormon church every year. That's a lot. What they never tell you is that about two and a half million come out the back door every year. So they're not really growing. Why? Because, you know, they're very good at the relational end of things, getting people to come in and building a sense of community. And young people in particular are looking for that. Buddhism provides that kind of sense of community where nobody's better than anybody else. We all are going to make it through this together. We're a community. So yeah, it's a really mixed up thing. Are Gen Zers really interested in the Protestant church? Not unless they have a relationship with somebody in one of those churches and they're impressed by the lifestyle of that person. Modeling is huge in discipleship, we learn most of who we become not by what we're told, but by watching people we know and trust and believe in and then imitating what they do.
- [20:16]
Alex Clark
I like that. That's a lot of conviction. I like it.
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Dr. George Barna
It's very important. And I mean, you know, where did that come from? Jesus, right? You know, I mean, he took 12 yahoos and they. They lived with him for three years, and he showed them. No, no, no, no, no. This is how you work with people. This is how you love people. This is how you get people to. To trust you at what I'm doing with you. You know, having that conversation, walking around, experiencing things together, talking about it afterwards. That was Jesus whole approach.
- [20:44]
Alex Clark
Well, one of the biggest hurdles for skeptics is believing that God exists at all. How do we know that God is real? And what evidence can we point to that might resonate with somebody who's doubting that?
- [20:56]
Dr. George Barna
It depends on the individual. Again, it's got to be a conversation because you got to work your way through their layers of disbelief. So it depends where they're coming from and how they latched on to that idea that there's no God. I think it's really difficult to look at all of creation and say, this just spontaneously happened, and look how well it fits together. And by the way, if we change the oxygen, you know, content by one degree, there could be no life on the planet. If the earth were a little bit closer to the sun, we'd all burn up. But, you know, that just happened randomly. And, you know, it's spinning at a particular rate of motion that enables us to stay on the planet. Oh, there's this thing called gravity that you can't see, but God created it to anchor us. I mean, all of these things that have to be put in place, that when you talk with honest scientists and you ask them, as I've done, could you please calculate for me the probability that all of these things happened randomly? They can't come up with a number for it.
- [22:02]
Alex Clark
Wow.
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Dr. George Barna
I mean, it's virtually impossible because there are so many things that have to align, that have to line up in order for us to have life and to continue life. It's nonsense to think that it would be spontaneous or random. So, I mean, that's one area you could go into. Other people say, I don't believe in God because I've read the Bible and he's a God of wrath. Who would want an angry God? It's like, well, okay, let's go back a little bit before the Wrath showed up, and let's figure out what the rules are that were set by the person who created you and everything else on the planet. And so when you follow that story, what you find out is he said, look, this is what I'm asking of you human beings. This is what I expect of you. And when we chose, by the way, because of our feelings, to. To disobey the rules that the Creator of all things, including us, gave us, and he gets angry about that, who are we to say he should not be angry with us? We decided that was the best thing for us to do. We're a creation. We're not the Creator. And so you have to then think through, okay, so why is he angry? Because he's a God of love and justice. And in order for him to remain that he has to follow through on the rules that he gave us. He has to expect us to do the things in the environment he placed us in, in the time that we're here.
- [23:41]
Alex Clark
And according to his plan, by the way, that is exactly what any healthy parent child relationship looks like. They're doing the same thing.
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Dr. George Barna
It's what we call accountability.
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Alex Clark
Yeah.
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Dr. George Barna
You know, and so for us to reject a God who is simply holding us accountable to rules that he gave us for our best interests, you know, he didn't make these up capriciously. They were all done because this is what will enable you to thrive and succeed and have joy and be blessed. It's like, well, okay, we have a better plan, right? Really? How's that working? So, you know, those are some of the reasons why people don't believe in God. And I sympathize for people who are in that position, but I'd ask them to not think with their heart, but to think with their mind, to put together the facts of the situation. Because whether you like facts or not, we live according to facts. There is reality and there's fantasy. The heart leads us to fantasy, the mind leads us to reality. And so if you really want to understand whether there is a God, what the nature of that God is, use your mind. Don't go into fantasy land and dream up this kind of existence that you wish existed. That's not how it works. We're created.
- [25:06]
Alex Clark
Let's say you go into that and it works, One of those things works. They're like, okay, well, I'm open now to believing that God exists, but they still have questions about the nature of God. You know, with all of the horrible suffering that happens in the world. How do we know that God is really a loving God?
- [25:22]
Dr. George Barna
If you go back into the Bible and, and there's, you know, 66 books. One of them is called First John. If you read in First John, the fourth chapter, it tells us about how God is love. Not just that he loves us, he is love. We wouldn't even know what love is if God didn't exist. He's the very definition of it. Now, how do we know what that looks like? Because of how he treats us. He gives us a chance. He gives us hope. He gives us guidance and direction and power and authority. He'll give us all these things if we're willing to work with him within his system. Now, as human beings, we have kind of a natural inbred arrogance, like, who is he to tell me how I'm supposed to live? Well, he's God. He created you. He made the rules. He can change the rules if he wants. He doesn't because he knows that it's important for us to have predictability. And so he keeps them there for us. And, and if we are willing to read the guidebook that he gave us for our own good, we can understand what those rules are. Who would do such a thing? Someone who's loving, someone who's merciful, someone who cares about us. And so, you know, then you go on from there. Well, yeah, but you know, there must be some other way that we can know that God is love. Okay, let's talk about Jesus. You know, the fact that God gave us the rules, he gave us the guidebook, we chose to do it our way, which we call sin. And so there are consequences for every choice we make. I'm a parent, I'm a grandparent. I, I taught all my girls that. I teach all my grandkids that every choice you make has a consequence. Sometimes a good consequence, sometimes a bad consequence depends on your choice. And so our sin has consequences and that's that when we die, we cannot be in the presence of a holy, righteous, all loving, all knowing, omniscient. God just can't be there because he is so incredible that that dirtiness that we represent with our sin can't be in his presence. Yeah, but he loves us so much that he said, but I'll make a way that, that we can overcome your sin. I'm going to take part of myself, my son, you know, from my own essence, and I'm going to let you kill him. An unjust, painful, illegal, embarrassing death in public. And there will be many witnesses. And he is going to take your sins with him when he dies. And he will get rid of those sins for you. If you're willing to admit that you sinned and that he is the one who is going to save you. He will give you that eternity in my presence. You can't earn it. There's no other way you can get it. He's the only pathway. All you have to do is say, okay, I give up. I know I can't do it. I want Jesus to be my savior. I sinned. I'm sorry. I'm going to try to live differently, which is what repentance is. And. And I mean, who would do that? Who would kill their own son for other people's bad choices, right? Intentional horrible choices. Bad choices. Yeah. Only a loving God.
- [29:04]
Alex Clark
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- [32:46]
Dr. George Barna
Right. We're not the ones that make the rules. Yeah, God makes the rules.
- [32:50]
Alex Clark
And that's what says when people are like, well, he's a God full of wrath. He's not loving. I'm like, but the gospel proves that that is not the case.
- [32:59]
Dr. George Barna
And there is no greater place of hope than the Christian life. You know, so many Americans are trying to figure out, what's my purpose in life? How am I going to succeed in life? How can I make life worthwhile? You know, maybe I should just end it all. You know, I'm always depressed, I'm always anxious. I mean, we do the research on this. I know there are tens of millions of people that wrestle with that every single day. One of the most important ones is, okay, your greatest hope is going to be in Jesus. He can heal you, he can save you, he loves you. He wants to spend the rest of eternity, long time with you. Give him a chance. What do you have to lose? One of the great old philosophers, I forget which one now, said, if I go with Jesus, and it's not true. Well, I've kind of lived my life the way I wanted to anyway, you know, so what did I lose? But if I go with Jesus, and it is true, I mean, all God's asking me to do is to admit that I'm a sinner. You know, I make a lot of bad choices and that there's a better way that I could be living and I should probably pursue it. It's like, well, I haven't lost anything there either. Yeah, so why not go with door B, you know, because I've got much better outcomes there. You know, if you're a gambler, that's the way to look at it. It's like you're better off with door B than do that.
- [34:22]
Alex Clark
Perspective on God's love through Jesus kind of brings us to a pivotal event in Christianity, which is the resurrection. Skeptics often wonder, you know, did that really happen? So my question for you, Dr. Barna, is, is there historical and scientific solid evidence that the resurrection of Jesus Christ really happened?
- [34:41]
Dr. George Barna
Yeah. And. And we can start out with all of the eyewitness accounts of what took place there. So the first thing that happened, Jesus dies on the cross. And one of the Roman soldiers goes up and pierces him with his sword. What came out of his body? The liquid that's described only comes out of a body when it's dead. So we know that he was dead. You know, some conspiracy theorists will say, oh, he wasn't really dead, you know, he was just in agony. But then he got off the cross and he ran away. No, he was dead. You know, so then he's put in a tomb, he's guarded by soldiers. There's a huge rock in front of this tomb, and some of Christ's followers come the next day and, you know, they look in there and he's gone. Well, the soldiers were still there, the rocks there, you know. How did he get out? Well, it had to be a supernatural explanation to that, you know, but then you've got Peter being the first one to physically see and speak to him. Then you've got the other 12 apostles, you know, who see him personally. Then we've Got accounts of over 500 people witnessing the resurrected Jesus, you know, speaking to them, walking among them, talking with them, doing things with them. You've got additional historical accounts about that from people who weren't even Christians. They were just historians who did their own research and came to the conclusion, yeah, all these things happened. You know, then you've got the lives of the people who followed him. Let's take. Let's take the 12 apostles. You've got Judas, of course, who fell away. So we're down to 11. But then you've got 10 who themselves were crucified because they refused to give up this wild tale the Romans are calling a wild tale. You know, this makes no sense, and we're going to kill you unless you recant that ridiculous story. Ten of them were willing to be crucified a painful, ugly death because they knew it was true. I can't turn my back on the reality of the situation was their ultimate response to the Romans. And then you've got the 11th, you know, John, who was exiled onto Patmos, and, you know, his life was miserable because of that, but he wasn't willing to recant. So, I mean, you've got all of these people having all these experiences with the risen Jesus. Then you've got, you know, other archaeological evidence of, you know, things that were at that event and that have since been found and are exactly as they were described. So, I mean, there's just so much evidence for it now. We call Christianity a faith. Faith means, okay, there are going to be some things that maybe I don't have facts for, but I'm going to believe anyway because it makes sense to me. It still seems real. But I think there's so much factual evidence about Christianity. Maybe it's not even so much a faith as we call it. It really is based on fact.
- [37:58]
Alex Clark
If there is no historical doubt that the resurrection happened, that means everything is true. The Bible is true. But wait, the Bible has been translated so many times. Are we sure things haven't been mixed up or changed or taken out of context?
- [38:15]
Dr. George Barna
Some heaven. Because you've got so many different translations. Some aren't even called translations anymore, you know, because they're kind of admitting. Yeah, all right, we're changing the language. But when you go back to the original manuscripts and then you try to track through, okay, if you translate the original Aramaic or Greek or whatever language that portion of the scripture was in, and you look at the different translations, there are ratings as to which ones you can actually trust because they're good. Translations, they've gone back and tried to figure out over the course of years, even as those languages have changed, what did the original mean? And so you do have a variety of translations that are faithful to the original language. So, yeah, you got to be careful about what version of the Bible you're reading. But if you're. If you're really wanting to get at the truth of what the Scriptures teach, you can do that. You can find those translations.
- [39:08]
Alex Clark
If two people are living the exact same life, they treat others with kindness when no one is looking. They give to charity, they raise a happy family, they're a good spouse, they're a good friend, they're a good son, daughter. But one believes Jesus Christ is the son of God, and one doesn't. Are both or only one going to heaven?
- [39:28]
Dr. George Barna
One will go to heaven. And people say, oh, that's so harsh. No, let's go back to the rules. You know, I mean, Jesus made it very clear there's one way. He's the way. You don't have to like the way. You just have to live with the way. I'm from New York. It's like, you don't have to like it. You just have to deal with it, you know? And that's kind of what Christianity is like. God made it abundantly clear, and he's made it so easy for us. Now, if somebody is a loving person, a good person, a good friend, you know, they're kind, they're generous, they're all that, why wouldn't they say, yeah, I'm gonna follow Jesus. Yeah, what is it you're giving up? All you're doing is saying, the lifestyle that Jesus showed to us is a great lifestyle. I want to live that way. Okay, you've only missed one thing in his teachings, maybe, and that's that. But you're still a sinner. You know, you still have thoughts or behaviors that break God's holy law. And so you need to confess that you need to ask for God's strength to overcome that. And that strength is Jesus, and he did the work for you. All you've got to say is, you know what? Count me in. Yeah, I'll be a follower of Jesus. I'm kind of doing it with my lifestyle anyway. He can probably elevate my game. How great. But let's get to it.
- [40:53]
Alex Clark
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- [43:53]
Dr. George Barna
Well, you've got to work through your own process there to try to figure out, you know, what is truth. Let's look at the holy books of all of these different faith groups, and let's look at the claims that they make, the historical claims, the spiritual claims. You know, the Bible has literally hundreds of prophecies that have come true. Can any other faith literature claim that? No. You know, Jesus is the person that we turn to as Christians and we read about his life in the scriptures and what he did for us, how he suffered for us. You know, look at all these other faith groups. You know, is Joseph Smith suffering for other people? No. You know, is Buddha suffering for other people? You know, pick, pick your alternative God, if you will, quote unquote, and try to figure out what have they done for you? Did they know you personally? Jesus knew me before I was born. He knew the number of hairs that would be in my head. You know, I mean, he knows everything about me. He knows what a wretched person I am, and he was still willing to die for me because he loved me that much. What other savior, what other God figure, what other higher power has been willing to do that for anybody else? So you want to be a Scientologist, you know, because you, you believe Dianetics is a great book. Good for you. Go for it. Best of luck. But you know what? You're going to go through some tough stuff in life where you come to realize Dianetics doesn't have the answer to what I'm going through right now. You know, Hinduism doesn't have the answer with its, you know, umpteen thousand gods. None of them have the answer to what I'm going through right now. But the God of the Bible has the answer to every crisis you'll ever face, every difficulty you'll ever face, every challenge that you're going to encounter. And so for me, it's like, yeah, bring it on. Give me the guidebook. Help me, Lord. You know, and I mean, we haven't even talked about the third person of what's known as the Trinity. There's God the Father, Jesus the Son, then there's the Holy Spirit. He loves me so much. He sent the Holy Spirit known as an advocate, somebody to advocate for me not only before God, but in the world. He's going to guide me in every situation if I'm willing to listen, to try to sense what's God telling me here? Maybe it's going to be through what he makes me read or leads me to read in the Bible that morning. Maybe it's going to be through what somebody's praying for me at lunch when we're praying before lunch. Maybe it's going to be through something else. But that Holy Spirit is going to protect me and guide me. I'm going to have a perfect life because I'm a fallen person. But the Holy Spirit is there for me 24 7. No other faith has this.
- [46:46]
Alex Clark
Most people have a fully solidified worldview by 13.
- [46:49]
Dr. George Barna
By the age of 13?
- [46:50]
Alex Clark
Yeah, by the age of 13. So, I mean, one, is there hope for people that are not Christians after 13? And two, is there any encouragement you can give parents who are raising young children now who want to make sure that their worldview is solidified in the Christian faith by 13?
- [47:07]
Dr. George Barna
Great questions. All right, so is there any hope for anyone who's already got their worldview solidified? Yes, because we always go through crises in life. Everybody does. And I did this really interesting to me, it was a really interesting research project. Over a long period of time, we tracked the spiritual lives of 17,000 people. And what we discovered is everybody goes through crises. Why did they do that? Because that's God trying to get their attention, trying to give them an opportunity to think differently about who they are and how they're living. And so it's during these moments of crisis when we can turn to God and when we're willing to give ourselves to Him. He can change how we think, how we see things, what we're experiencing, how we interpret reality. And we can do it according to the way that he teaches us to do if we want to. But because we have free will, he never forces us to do it his way. It's still got to be our choice. Because part of the thing about being a Christian is that I get to really love God. But it's my choice. I don't have to love Him. Most people in America don't love God. You know, I happen to love him because I can't believe how great he is and how much he's loved me and what he's doing for me. But, you know, you get to make that choice. If he forced me to love him, it wouldn't be love. He loves me because He Chooses to love me. He made me so that he could love me. He wanted to love me. It's incredible. So when we have these crises, we have this opportunity to change the subject of our love, the object of our love, and we can do it or not. Most people tend to choose, no, I'm not going to change who I am. But those are the moments we found there are six dominant times or crises that people could go through when that's an ideal moment for you to start rethinking how you understand life, how you live, what you believe, who you are, what kind of legacy you want to have. All these big life questions, and that's what worldview is. It answers those and then helps you make your choices moment to moment. You know, going to jail, experiencing bankruptcy, losing all your possessions in a major natural disaster, flood or fire or something like that, contracting some kind of debilitating illness, somebody you, you deeply love, somebody that you, you're intimate with has a debilitating illness, or they die a tough death, or you have an acrimonious divorce. So those six things the research show are the major crisis points that people are going or might experience in their life. And, and the tendency of people, when they get there is to try to be strong. Wrong. What we ought to do is recognize this crisis is a gift from God. He wants me to experience this hardship. Why? Because he wants to break me. What, a loving God wants to break me? Yes. He wants to break you of sin, self, and society. Because those are the three things that you're following. You think you're the center of it all. You want society to love you, and you're taking cues from society. And sin is just kind of how we live because we're the center of society. We don't care about God's rules. We're doing what feels right to us. Well, that's what's been killing us. And so he gives us this crisis as a moment of opportunity to rethink it all and to say, do you think maybe there's a better way? You know, I gave you the Bible, all the words. I'll give you the Holy Spirit, Spirit, you know, the moment to moment guidance. My son already died on the cross for you. So, you know, just give your life to him, let him wipe away your sins. That, that's, that's when you have that opportunity. And then once you start thinking that way, then you start reading the Bible, then you see truth in black and white, and then you can start rethink. Oh, I didn't see the World that way. I've got to change that way that I'm thinking my worldview has to shift another degree, you know, you know, and you keep learning things day by day. The Holy Spirit keeps teaching you. Maybe you get somebody who can disciple you, you know, bring you deeper into it. You can ask questions, you can do things together and learn with them alongside of them, you know, and before you know it, yeah, you're going to be on the path to developing that biblical worldview. It's hard. I don't, I don't want to mislead anybody. It usually doesn't happen. Very few people change their worldview after the age of 13. You might change a degree here or there, but by and large I did. I did another long term study, a 35 year study where we tracked people's lives found that people do not change their worldview unless during those moments of crisis they're willing to be broken of sin self in society and to basically put their world back together the way that God wants them to.
- [52:14]
Alex Clark
What about raising children and shaping that before 13?
- [52:18]
Dr. George Barna
Here's the reality. It's an ugly reality. Only 2% of parents of kids under the age of 13 in America today have a biblical worldview. So let's say they want their child for some reason to have what they don't have. Well, you can't give what you don't have. And so where are they going to start? Well, the good thing about parenting is your kids don't know what's going on. And so you've only got to be about 10 seconds ahead of them. Right. And then they figure, yeah, okay, mom and dad have it together here. So if you want them to develop a biblical worldview, in that book that I wrote, I talk about this thing that I discovered in the research that I call the seven cornerstones of a Biblical Worldview. It's seven very basic foundational beliefs that if you really own these things, I mean, you know, just give them, you know, you know, verbal approval. They're really part of who you are, they become part of your essence. Then you've got an 83% probability of going on and developing a full biblical worldview. But if you reject even one of those seven beliefs, that probability drops to 2%.
- [53:32]
Alex Clark
Okay, you got to tell us what these seven things are.
- [53:33]
Dr. George Barna
Okay, yeah, you don't have to go.
- [53:35]
Alex Clark
Into each one because we want them to read your book, but give us the, just the title of the seven.
- [53:39]
Dr. George Barna
Yeah. So the first one and this, this is Sunday School 101. That's the beauty of this. Any parent can do this. Okay, you need to read up, you need to study, you need to be prepared. But these seven. There is a God. There is one God. It's the God of the Bible. You know, he's all knowing, all loving. He created everything. He rules the universe. He's involved in our lives today. He wants to partner with you in life. Secondly, that can't happen yet because you're a sinner. When you're born, you're born into sin. Thank you, Adam and Eve. But that's the legacy that they gave to us and humanity has continued it. The Bible teaches us that's just part of who we are. But thirdly, because God wants to partner with you, because he created you, because he loves you. Jesus died on the cross for you. And that's your way to deal with sin. As we were talking about earlier. Fourth thing is. But how do we know that's true? Because there is absolute moral truth. Truth is not relative. Moral truth is absolute. Well, where does it come from? And how do we know what it is? Number five. The Bible. The Bible has proven itself over time. We could talk about archaeology, we could talk about sociology. We could talk about theology. There are proofs out of all of those that the Bible is real. It's true. The Bible is the source of absolute moral truth. Okay, but then how am I going to live? Number six, God has a purpose for your life. He knows you intimately. He knows the skills that he's given to you. He knows the mind he's given to you, the abilities he's given to you, the spiritual gifts that he's going to give to you so that you can thrive in life. Okay, but. But how do I know when I'm successful? Success. Obedience to God. Consistent obedience to God. That's success. It's not how much money you have. It's not the car you drive. It's not the. The spouse that you marry. It's not the zip code you live in. It's consistent obedience to God. Why? Because God is the measure of all things. God is the only thing that matters. I only draw breath every day so that I can know and love and serve God with all my heart, mind, strength and soul. When I do that, then I can be consistently obedient to God and I suddenly have a success. If you teach your kids those seven things, and the best way for you to teach them that. Yeah, sure. You want to explain it to them verbally. Sure. You want to show it to them in the Bible.
- [56:06]
Alex Clark
Live it out, but live it.
- [56:08]
Dr. George Barna
Let them see it in your life. When they see mom and dad doing those seven things, acting as if they wholeheartedly believe those seven things, then we don't have the problem. I talked about earlier when we were speaking that kids don't trust their parents because the parents say one thing and do another. No, when you say these things, you profess these truths, and then you live these truths. It's a truth that your kid wants to follow.
- [56:33]
Alex Clark
The whole interview is worth that section right there. Excellent, Excellent. What are the best suggestions for movies or books for skeptics to watch or read?
- [56:45]
Dr. George Barna
Lee Strobel wrote a whole series of books called the Case for. And so he's got one called the Case for Christ. He's got another one, the Case for the Bible. You know, he's got a bunch of things, the Case for the Resurrection. So if you've got doubts. Lee was a skeptic. He graduated from Yale, you know, the home of skepticism. And. And he came out. He was trained as a lawyer. He became a journalist, and he started doing research to prove what a sham Christianity is. And the deeper and deeper he went into it, the more embarrassed he became because he realized, oh, my gosh, the sham is atheism. The sham is agnosticism. The sham are all these other faiths Christianity based on. Everything I'm able to find is real. It's true, it's valid, it's legitimate. It's got to be my faith. And then he went on and eventually became a pastor.
- [57:38]
Alex Clark
Yeah. So here's something funny, Dr. Varna, that I didn't tell you. So the inspiration for this interview today was actually a date that I went on recently, and the guy on the date asked me a lot of these questions, and I ended the date and I said, I think you need to watch this movie called the Case for Christ. And that was my suggestion. And so he followed up with me and he sent me pictures. He was watching the movie, and I was so excited. I was like, yeah, you're watching it. So. But, yeah, so I haven't followed up with him. I need to find out more about, like, what he thought of the movie. But that's coming soon. But anyway, I love that you recommended that, so. Because then I feel good, like, okay, I recommended the Right Thing because I was trying my best to answer these questions that I asked you, but I was really curious to hear your answers. I think I did pretty good. He was really blown away by the Jeffrey Dahmer stuff. And then. And then the Case for Christ. So any others that you like?
- [58:35]
Dr. George Barna
Chuck Colson wrote a book called How Now Shall We Live? Which is kind of a cultural worldview book. Great book. And, yeah, I'd recommend that. I've got a whole wall of these kind of books that I think are great. So there's a lot. I mean, if anybody's interested in that kind of stuff, they're welcome to write to me. And I'd be happy to hear what they're struggling with and suggest things for them to read or watch or listen to.
- [59:03]
Alex Clark
That's super kind. I love that. That's super nice of you. I ask every guest this. If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, and it could be physically, emotionally, or spiritually, what would it be?
- [59:16]
Dr. George Barna
People in America today that 3% who are disciples have to recognize that we're going to lose Christianity in America if they don't get busy making disciples. The only person who can make a disciple is a disciple. We reproduce who we are. And so the only people that can make disciples are disciples. That 3% is the remnant that's in America today for such a time as this. And now's their time to rise up and to be the church. Not worry about going to church, but to be the church in the culture, building those relationships, taking the time, you know, sacrificing a lot of our own lives to recognize this is a critical moment in. In the history of America. And if we as the body of disciples don't rise up and create other disciples, we're going to lose America. When the world loses America, it's going to lose its major Christian witness and funding and, you know, so many other things. So this is a critical dimension. And for. For all of us who are disciples to recognize that it's critical that we do that primarily with children.
- [60:33]
Alex Clark
Wow.
- [60:34]
Dr. George Barna
They are the ones who are most vulnerable spiritually. You know, there is no surprise in a way that Mao Zedong, Stalin, Mussolini, Hitler, you know, a bunch of other totalitarian, authoritarian, awful leaders all said at one point during their leadership, give me a child until he or she is. Some of them said seven, some said eight, some said nine. But, you know, give me a child before they're nine and I'll have them the rest of their life.
- [61:08]
Alex Clark
Well, Islam does that.
- [61:10]
Dr. George Barna
Yeah, of course.
- [61:11]
Alex Clark
Yeah. Wow, that's really profound, what you just said. Where can people read more about your work and the research that you do?
- [61:18]
Dr. George Barna
I'm at Arizona Christian University. We have something called the Cultural Research Center. So if they go to culturalresearchcenter.com they'll see a lot of the research we're doing. I also put it for free on my website, GeorgeBarna.com written a lot of books. Many of the books are available there as well.
- [61:36]
Alex Clark
Dr. Barna, this was a fantastic interview. Thanks for coming on.
- [61:38]
Dr. George Barna
Oh, thanks. This was fun.
- [61:43]
Alex Clark
Short, powerful and packed with truth. If you've ever struggled with how to talk to skeptics about your faith, I hope this episode gave you clarity, confidence and maybe even a little fire to step up your own conversations. The need for bold, truth filled evangelism has never been more urgent. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Culture Apothecary and me at Real Alex Clark, if this episode spoke to you, please take 30 seconds. Leave a five star review. It really helps more than you know. We're on a mission to heal a sick culture. Twice a week, on Monday and Thursday nights, new guests bring a unique remedy to do just that. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.