← Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
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- [00:00]
Michaela Peterson
I remember looking at my purse at one point and the zipper was open and seeing teeth. You'll see on side effects for SSRI and psych meds may cause restlessness. That's the term they're using for akathisia. Everything I saw looked pixelated. Everything was terrifying. Everything hurt. Sound hurt. Smells were weird. Panic and discomfort in my own body to the point where I was like, I kind of wanted to hold myself and rock back and forth.
- [00:25]
Alex Clark
And this is what your dad has.
- [00:27]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah. And he had two years of this. You hear about people having a week of this and killing themselves.
- [00:33]
Alex Clark
Do you think that there's millions of people who believe that they're mentally ill for life and. And really they're just chemically dependent for sure.
- [00:40]
Michaela Peterson
So it's a physical inflammatory response causing mental illness. But the solution certainly wasn't medication that causes neurological damage. Long.
- [01:04]
Alex Clark
Foreign. S of people being told that they're mentally ill for life when they may actually be inflamed, malnourished, chemically dependent, sleep deprived, spiritually lost, or reacting to the food they eat every single day. Today's guest is one of the most polarizing and recognizable women in wellness and mental health conversations online, Michaela Fuller. Or you may know her as Michaela Peterson. Yes, she is Jordan Peterson's daughter. She is the co founder and CEO of Peterson Academy, an online education platform built to make learning accessible, affordable, and ideology free. She also hosts the Michaela Peterson podcast and became internationally known after developing what's now called the lion diet, an extreme animal based elimination diet that she says helped reverse devastating autoimmune disease, depression, chronic inflammation, and severe psychiatric symptoms. But this conversation goes way beyond diet. I mean, Michaela and I get into what's going on with her dad lately and his health issues. Antidepressant withdrawal, whether SSRIs are creating a generation chemically dependent on medication, what akathisia is and feels like in the body and why more medical professionals are not warning people taking antidepressants about it, what chronic inflammation may be driving like anxiety and depression, and whether some mental illness symptoms are actually metabolic symptoms in disguise. We also get into mold toxicity, mitochondrial dysfunction, dating, libido, and of course, faith. Her own faith journey, which is really interesting, and her mom and dad's. Before we get started, please support the show by pausing, leaving a five star review. This takes like five seconds to do it immensely. Helps us get bigger and better guests and to stay prominent on the charts. Please welcome Michaela Fuller to culture Apothecary. One of the first things that actually piqued my interest into learning about big food and big Pharma was Aderall. I was listening to this podcast, and this girl was talking about how Adderall was, like, literal speed, but it was legal, and I had never heard that before. That was, like, the most shocking thing. I was like, what do you mean it's legal speed? How can we be prescribing it to people? You know, that really melted my brain. And you've had your own experience with Adderall, right?
- [03:20]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, I was so. I had idiopathic hypersomnia, which is like a fancy word for chronic fatigue. And that started when I was about 14, and by the time I was 20, it was incapacitating. So I was sleeping 18 hours a day, and I couldn't get out of bed. I've got an interesting story about Adderall, because Adderall actually woke me up enough to start researching to try to get myself out of chronic illness. It helped me, but if I had known how to get out of chronic illness, I wouldn't have used it. Obviously, I stopped taking it. I took it for about. I think it was about three years, 20 to 23, six days a week. And, yeah, it. I mean, it is chemically very similar to, like, methamphetamine, something like that. Definitely not something you want to give to kids and not something you want to take without being seriously informed that what you're taking is, like, speed. Like, if you're an adult, maybe do whatever you want, but it's not this casual pharmaceutical. My experience, once I started getting healthier, was it completely ruined my sense of humor, like, flatlined my emotions. Obviously causes serious insomnia. I was on the long acting one, which there. There are fewer, like, types of them in Canada than they have in America. They've got more types in America, but it, like, wreaked havoc on my sleep, my appetite, everything that speed would likely do. So I stopped taking it. It was one of the medications that, like, I'm appreciative of, honestly, because it woke me up enough to start researching. But I was on seven other pharmaceuticals, eating terribly. I didn't know that at the time. And chronically ill. So it was just like another pill. But now that I know what I know, obviously the pharmaceutical route isn't the way to go. You discuss that all the time on your show.
- [05:04]
Alex Clark
What scares you more? Kids on stimulants or parents thinking stimulants for kids is harmless?
- [05:09]
Michaela Peterson
Kids on stimulants, probably. The pharmaceuticals for children is such a nightmare. Like, Adderall is one thing. Psych meds, my gosh, like psych meds, I think are, are the real issue. Not that Adderall can't be a segue into getting medicated with psych meds too. But to children on any type of mental medic medication is completely nuts for developing brain.
- [05:30]
Alex Clark
Yeah, talk about that. You kind of just touched on that. But the personality loss associated with kids being medicated long term.
- [05:38]
Michaela Peterson
I know this one girl, her name's Danielle Gansky. And her story isn't like it's, it's severe, but it's not, it's not rare, which is the scary part. But she was medicated for ADD when she was 7, but it was like almost like normal kid attention problems in class. Like nothing that needs something like speed. And that kind of took her down the route of Adderall, causing anxiety and causing these other problems and then being diagnosed with mental problems and then have being put on psych meds. And psych meds have like, I don't want to say ruined her life because she has a life, but like, she's really trapped on these, physically dependent on them. And that's a story that is seriously common. There's a study talking about psych med withdrawal. And after two years of a psych med medication, and most people are on them for five years plus after two years of a psych medication, 78 of people experience some sort of withdrawal. And that ranges from completely debilitating. So 30 of people can't stop taking them because the withdrawal is too debilitating to something minor like brain zaps. And we call them brain zaps, as if that's something casual. But no one really understands what a brain zap is. It's definitely not good. But that's my like blurb on psych meds. I think those, those are the danger that is very difficult to recover from.
- [07:00]
Alex Clark
You and your dad have both talked about the pains and difficulties with SSRI withdrawal. Why are so many doctors in denial that SSRI withdrawal is a thing?
- [07:10]
Michaela Peterson
I think one, they're not taught about it properly in medical school. Two, classic withdrawal doesn't look like the withdrawal they've been taught about. So we're very used to opiate withdrawal, which is like nausea, vomiting, sweating, like class classic drug withdrawal. That's not what psych med withdrawal looks like. Psych med withdrawal looks like severe versions of almost what you went in to get the prescription for in the first place. So you'll go, but. But it gets worse. So you'll use words like extreme anxiety, panic depression. But then there are other neurological symptoms, like when it gets really bad. Akathisia sensations under your skin, pain everywhere, sensitivity to light, to sound, to touch, to fragrances, to food. So that all comes. But when they go into the office, they go, oh, I've stopped taking my medication, or I've gone down, or they've been tapered down in two to four weeks under their doctor's recommendation, and between three days, two days, and two weeks later, they'll have this relapse. So it's diagnosed as a relapse in the office. And they go, oh, this is just your original mental problem. This is why you need to stay on the medications, when really it's a withdrawal, which isn't even the greatest word for it. Like, they call it protracted withdrawal for these lengthy withdrawals, but really it's neurological damage from brain adaptation to these psych meds that happens. It's. It's so bad, it's hard to believe. So I think doctors don't understand because, one, they think it's the original mental problem. Two, people are in such distress when they're experiencing these symptoms, they're easy to write off as crazy. I mean, that's about it.
- [08:47]
Alex Clark
What you just said is important. You mentioned how doctors sometimes will try to taper people off these drugs in, like, a month, and in some cases, they've been on them for years.
- [08:56]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [08:57]
Alex Clark
And that's where you get people experiencing severe physical, neurological damage.
- [09:02]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [09:03]
Alex Clark
Pain. And it could last the rest of their lives. And so you have Secretary Kennedy making this announcement that we need to be educating doctors on how to properly taper people off of these drugs. And then the narrative on X and online in the past week that we're recording this, Secretary Kennedy is trying to take away ssri. Can you speak to this?
- [09:24]
Michaela Peterson
What was actually said so is so unbelievably frustrating. Obviously, that's not the case. If anything, it's the opposite of the case. Now he's looking into the dangers of these medications, which really need to be studied. But he's trying to stop doctors from rapidly tapering people. Because if you go in, they go, first of all, you're. You're prescribed the medication. And they go, this is because you have a chemical imbalance, and you might need to take this for the rest of your life. But if you do want to get off, they go, well, it's not. It's not addictive. So you can get off in two to four weeks. And that's not dependent on how long You've been taking it. That's for everybody. And doctors that really don't know what they're doing will do that. Even for benzodiazepines, which they're like one of the only two medications that can kill you when you stop taking them. So this is really dangerous, these rapid tapers and they often cause neurological injury because of the rapid taper. It's partly because of like long term use causing neurological changes and then injury when you pull them out. Now some people experience these injuries while they're on the medication and that makes this a lot more difficult because then you're already injured. It's very difficult to pull out. But he certainly didn't say anything about taking away the medications that would like. I can understand the sentiment on X saying that's a terrible idea because that is a terrible idea. Yeah, but that's certainly not what happened.
- [10:40]
Alex Clark
Do you think that there's millions of people who believe that they're mentally ill for life and really they're just chemically dependent?
- [10:46]
Michaela Peterson
For sure. I'm not part of the group of people. I know there are a lot of people on acts that are like, oh, well, mental illness isn't real because I've experienced it and I was not okay and it ran in my family. So that's what made it easier to believe that it was some genetic chemical imbalance because it hit my great grandpa, my grandpa, my dad, me. And the symptoms were severe, severe depression. And by the time a lot of people in my family were 50, they spent the last 30 years on the couch. But what we've figured out recently is likely my family's response to mold, which is getting out there, but is really severe and manifests in psychiatric issues. So it's a physical inflammatory response causing mental illness, which complicates it for people. So the mental illness was real, but the solution certainly wasn't medication that causes neurological damage long term.
- [11:39]
Alex Clark
I'm glad that you talked about your family and your all's experience with this because I went on Glenn Beck show in the last, I don't know, year, year or so. And Glenn brought this up because, you know, he knows I talk about all this stuff with Maha and everything. He's like, okay, well let me ask you something genuine. He said, you know, so many members of my family have had debilitating depression. I almost took my own life. You know, he went through this whole entire thing and multiple members of his family had the exact, exact same experience. So he was like, how do you explain that? Like, don't you think there might be a genetic component or whatever. And I don't remember what I said at the time, but now if I didn't say this, I should have said this. I really think when you talk about families that are all experiencing the same thing, and you can speak to this better than me, but I really think that's typically a case of you're eating typically the same food, you're living in the same type of environment, you're doing the same things. I feel like there's something environmentally, whether that's food or. Yeah. An exposure to. To. To mold or whatever that is affecting multiple people. I would say yeah would be my guess.
- [12:36]
Michaela Peterson
I like, agree mostly with that. Yes to the environmental part. Like, for my family, my great grandpa who got hit, he grew up on a farm. So this was a long time ago. And then my grandpa who got hit was a high school teacher in northern Alberta. And then my dad who got hit was like a Harvard professor in Boston. And then I got hit and I grew up in Toronto eating the same things. I mean, we were all eating. My great grandpa was probably eating better than the rest of us, but we weren't picky with the diet. Like, I grew up eating the standard American diet, and that was like wreaking havoc on my health. But I. I think for our family it was this serious sensitivity to mold. And mold is common in, like, most buildings. The indoor air quality in America is not good. It's terrible, actually. It's a huge issue. And I think that's at the root of a lot of people who have these genetic depressions. That would be my guess. But, like, it's all. There's emerging research, tons of research into mold causing psychiatric illnesses. Like, I don't know why that's not commonly known, because the number of papers internationally, astounding.
- [13:36]
Alex Clark
You ever meet your kids teacher and just immediately think, this person hates joy? Like, they walk into the room and all the fun is sucked right out. Passive aggression, off the charts. And you're like, how did you get into this profession in the first place? You're smiling like, yeah, thank you so much for everything you do. While internally you're like, this woman would report me to the government for blinking wrong. You know, half of life is just trying not to offend people, including with your smell. Most deodorant is basically a chemical weapon. I mean, aluminum, synthetic fragrance stuff you can't pronounce, and you're just putting it directly into your armpits and lymphatic system. That's why I only use zebra deodorant. It actually works, first of all, which is shocking in the natural deodorant world, where half of them are like a suggestion. This one keeps you fresh, has unisex scents, and doesn't burn your armpits. It's clean, non toxic, no aluminum, no fake fragrance. It's designed to support your body instead of shutting it down because sweating is normal, but smelling like a haunted locker room is not. So we need to be detoxing. And the best part is, you don't have to think about it. You just use it. You don't smell weird, and your kid's teacher has one less thing to judge you for. Life is hard enough. You don't need your deodorant working against. You switched zebra deodorant@yay zebra.com code Alex for 10% off. That's yay zebra.com code Alex, for 10% off. I need to interrupt this episode with a formal apology to all of you because apparently I've ruined your lives. I've been getting messages, people saying, alex, I can't stop. I'm hiding bags. My family is concerned and I just want to say, well, that's not my fault. But also I understand, because I've been talking about Masa chips since late 2022, before they were even a sponsor. I had the founder on in 2023, like some kind of snack evangelist. Because I believe in something. I'm not casual about it. I go full ride or die. And Masa deserves that. Because once you switch to chips made with real ingredients, organic nixtamalized corn, sea salt grass fed beef tallow, you physically cannot go back. You try a regular chip and you're like, what is this? This tastes like drywall dust fried in engine oil. And now you're stuck because Masa actually satisfies you. You eat it and you feel full, calm, stable. No bloat, no crash, no gross sluggish feeling. And your kids aren't bouncing off the walls from artificial junk, which honestly might be the biggest miracle here, hiding the chips. You've created a secret stash. You've become a person you don't recognize. And again, I'm sorry, but I'm also not. Because not only are these the best tortilla chips I've ever had, their mission is to completely revamp the food system. And I will support that aggressively. So if you're ready to upgrade your family snack game, you've got to go to masachips.com and use code real Alex Clark for 25% off your first order. Fair warning. Masa makes their chips in small batches with real ingredients, so certain flavors do go out of stock frequently. I actually just restocked because it wasn't finally back and I wasn't going to miss it again. So grab your favorites while they're available. Go to masachips.com use code real Alex Clark for 25% off your first purchase. Also look for Masa in Sprouts, Wegmans and Whole Foods for the first time ever. But remember, my discount is only on their website masachips.com here's a thought. Maybe the secret to a healthier life is in another self help book or some guy screaming about cold plunges on Instagram. My simple hack is just one scoop of creatine every day. Creatine is one of those tasteless, rare things that actually lives up to the hype. Yes, it helps with strength and muscle. Yes, it helps with recovery. 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- [18:20]
Michaela Peterson
So it took me a while. I went, I cut out a bunch of foods out of my diet in 2015 when I was on these eight medications, I had juvenile idiopathic arthritis, this, chronic fatigue, extreme mental illness. And I was on a bunch of medications to stabilize, which weren't working. And when I was, I was 22, I was like, if I don't figure this out, I think I'm not going to make it. And that wasn't, that wasn't me being dramatic about it because there are second cousins that have died at 30 from unknown autoimmune disorders. And I was in like that category of people that was on my dad's side as well. So I started cutting out foods. And three months into a really restrictive paleo diet, I could feel my depression lift. This was on the, this was on the psych med. I was on Lexa Pro at that point. And I felt the depression lift and I was like, like, oh, my gosh. I had been doing the diet to try to get my arthritis under control. I never even thought it would touch genetic depression. I thought that was just a chemical imbalance at the time. So that stopped and I literally had the thought, I'm never taking another pharmaceutical again.
- [19:23]
Alex Clark
And how many milligrams of Lex Pro were you on?
- [19:25]
Michaela Peterson
20. But something funny about that. It's not funny, actually. The reason hyperbolic tapering, which is like, it's about a 10% reduction every, I want to say every month, but that should be double checked. But then when you go down, so if you go from like 20 to 18, then next dose is a 10% reduction of that dose. So when you get to these really tiny doses, it still, it takes a lot longer to get off. And it turns out 5 milligrams of Lex saturates something like 70% of your neurotransmitters. So you think if you go from 5 to 10, you're getting a double dose, but you're really at a 70% dose at 5 milligrams and then you're at a like 80% dose at 10 milligrams. So the difference between 10 and 20 isn't massive, as massive, massive as you would think, just looking at dosages. But I figured out I had neurological damage after I stopped taking it over two weeks. I felt great for about two days. I was like, wow, I'm clear. I can think. Two days later, I started to try to reintroduce more inflammatory foods, and my food sensitivities skyrocketed. And for the first two years, I was attributing these weird neurological symptoms to food sensitivities. But my symptoms were like. Like I said, sound, light, fabric sensitivity, extreme depression, up and down, insomnia, panic. And it got to the point of hallucinations of really dark and horrifying things. And I was like, well, it's my reaction to food because I was so unaware that rapidly stopping antidepressants could cause the symptoms because they're unbelievable when you experience them. So it wasn't actually until my dad got hit and he got hit with antidepressant withdrawal, but we didn't know what it was. But then when he was prescribed clonazepam, that just was like the cherry on top of neurological injury. And when he started experiencing it, I was like, oh, my gosh. I think all these neurological issues that we seem to have that we think are like food sensitivities are from the antidepressant withdrawal.
- [21:27]
Alex Clark
Can you talk about what akathisia is and what it actually feels like in the body?
- [21:33]
Michaela Peterson
I had, like, brief experiences with it in the midst of the severe protracted withdrawal. So the mental state was almost like. I don't know if your audience has done shrooms, but it was almost like a psychedelic bad trip. Bad. It didn't feel like real life. Everything I saw looked pixelated. Everything was terrifying. So, like looking at plants. I remember looking at my purse at one point and the zipper was open and seeing, like, teeth. Like, everything was terrifying.
- [22:02]
Alex Clark
Oh, my gosh.
- [22:03]
Michaela Peterson
Everything hurts. Sound hurt. Smells were weird. But the akathisia part was like panic and discomfort in my own body to the point where it was like I kind of wanted to hold myself and rock back and forth. And that's when. If someone with akathisia goes to see a psychiatrist or something and is like, pacing around and rocking back and forth, they go, my gosh, like, you need anti psychotics or something. Like, this isn't right. It causes people enough physical discomfort that they want to crawl out of their skin. And it commonly, commonly causes suicidality. Not because the person is upset about their life.
- [22:41]
Alex Clark
Yeah.
- [22:41]
Michaela Peterson
But because they're so physically hurt that they can't stand it.
- [22:46]
Alex Clark
And this is what your dad has.
- [22:47]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, that's what he has. And his is. His is complicated because he experienced this it was horrible. He experienced this for two years. Actually. He experienced this while on clonazepam and recognized, oh, you know, something's happening that isn't good because of this clonazepam. And then he went to a bunch of really, really uninformed doctors that really hurt him. And he had two years of this, which is. You hear about people having a week of this and killing themselves. Like, two years is insane. And he miraculously got out of it. And then it was re triggered this summer. That would have been five years after taking a clonazepam pill. We had no idea that the neurological injury, like once you go through that first part of withdrawal can re emerge. But for a lot of people, especially with benzodiazepine induced neurological withdrawal injuries, it can be re triggered. So his was likely re triggered from mold exposures over the summer, the stress of his parents dying, and then a couple of like, supplements for like, trying to relax.
- [23:57]
Alex Clark
Didn't you give him. He ate something like passion fruit or something.
- [24:00]
Michaela Peterson
Passion flower extract. Passion flower extract is like. It kind of like the equivalent of chamomile tea. Like, if somebody healthy were to take it. Because I was like, this seems risky, so I'll try some. It's like I can't even feel anything. But because it works on GABA receptors and his GABA receptors are damaged, that triggered it. That was more recent. That was. And that was under like doctor supervision for supplements. It does look, I don't want to, like, get too enthusiastic about it because it's still a really bad situation. But he's having like, slightly longer windows during the day that have some relief, which he wasn't getting at all for a while now that all of those, like, well, passion flower extract. It's not like all of those things, but like, passion flower extract has been removed. But since then, I. I wrote a website, it's prescribed-harm.com to list all the research about this because doctors are so uninformed. And there's tons of research on akathisia and psych med injury. And I have maybe 500 people's stories on there about living with akathisia and things and this protracted withdrawal that lasts for like, we don't know how long. We don't know how long. But for unlucky people, like 10 years maybe it just lasts a long time. So you have to be careful with your nervous system for maybe the rest of your life. It's a. Is a catastrophe.
- [25:23]
Alex Clark
So if SSRIs are this hard to get off of why aren't we talking about them with the same seriousness as opioid withdrawal?
- [25:29]
Michaela Peterson
Oh, I've been through opioid withdrawal. I like. Opioid withdrawal was absolutely nothing compared to SSRI withdrawal. I was on oxycontin for my hip and ankle replacement because I had no cartilage in those joints and I couldn't sleep at that point. I was in so much pain. So I was on OxyContin for about a year. Stopped too rapidly. It was horrible. Like, two. But it wasn't like two and a half years of off and on hallucinations and sensitivity to everything. It wasn't that. It was. It was bad. And OxyContin is one of the worst ones for withdrawal. Why aren't we talking about it? I think because the withdrawal was hard to. Was often misdiagnosed because it wasn't this classic, like, sweating, throwing up type of withdrawal. And then I think it was also covered up by the pharmaceutical companies. This is the part that makes me really angry. Like, like, you'll see on side effects for SSRIs and psych meds may cause restlessness. That's the term they're using for akathisia, which is like, I don't know what malevolent person came up with that. But restlessness is not equivalent to Akathisia. Like, akathisia is so uncomfortable, people kill themselves to escape it.
- [26:36]
Alex Clark
Why do people get so angry when you bring this stuff up?
- [26:38]
Michaela Peterson
I totally understand that too. I probably would have been one of those people when I thought that the antidepressants were helping me. Like, I thought, I'm incredibly mentally ill. I. And like, thank God I have this solution that makes me more comfortable to be alive.
- [26:53]
Alex Clark
Yeah. They're saying, SSRIs have saved my life.
- [26:55]
Michaela Peterson
Saved my life. Yeah. And I, like, maybe. And maybe initially, like, I'm not even against that. The problem is they're not told that one. It's not solving the underlying problem. It's creating this, like, numbness that doesn't. Doesn't. Doesn't even last long term. And then if you do solve the underlying problem, which is what happened to us, we figured out mold, we figured out diet, we figured out how to get rid of this severe mental illness. Then you're stuck on this medication. That's what they're not told about. So there's pushback because the truth is so terrible. Like, about 20 of the population is on psych meds, and a huge percentage of those people have been taking them for over five years. They're likely physically dependent on a medication, 30 of them maybe can never stop taking it. So admitting that that's a problem is a catastrophe to millions of people.
- [27:49]
Alex Clark
We're prescribing kids as young as seven Lexapro.
- [27:51]
Michaela Peterson
Now.
- [27:52]
Alex Clark
What do you predict for the next generation who is likely to spend their entire life on SSRIs?
- [27:57]
Michaela Peterson
So I started them when I was. I've been saying I've been going back and forth between 11 and 12. I was in grade five. That's how I remember it. And I managed to get off of them, but it was brutal. And if at the time I had known that my symptoms were caused because of antidepressant withdrawal, I likely would have gone back on them. What's going to happen to them? I don't know. I think I've seen a. I've seen great success with especially ketogenic diets and helping people get off of these medications. But it is really tricky if you've. If your entire development has been built around this medication. I don't know if those people are going to be able to get off of them without risking neurological injury. And obviously staying on them isn't ideal because they're likely causing neurological injury. It's a complete catastrophe. Yeah.
- [28:48]
Alex Clark
A teenager comes up to you, they say, Michaela Peterson, I. I am suffering so much with depression. What is your order of operations that you give them before you take medication? This is what you should do.
- [28:58]
Michaela Peterson
I would immediately tell them to adjust their diet. And for someone who had severe, okay, say we're just. Say we're dealing with like anxiety, depression, I would say ketogenic diet. Right away, just switch into the ketogenic diet. The emerging research there is getting, is getting to be overwhelming. It's still emerging, but every year that passes, there's more and more studies, especially on mental illness. So ketogenic diet. And if that's not enough, that's when I would suggest the carnivore diet or the diet I'm doing, which is the lion diet. Depends on the severity of symptoms. For people who have never been on medication, they might not need to go all the way to just eating meat to get their symptoms under control. Ketogenic diet might be enough.
- [29:37]
Alex Clark
What's your opinion on the theory that chronic inflammation is driving a lot of anxiety and depression?
- [29:44]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, I mean, I think that's a simple way of putting it, but yes, definitely. Like all these triggers which seem to be diet or mitochondrial dysfunction. I know you just had Chris Master John on, so that might be at the basis there. There's some evidence that in people with mental illness, there's issues with their GABA glutamate systems, but inflammation plays a huge role there. It's probably a little bit more complicated with neurotransmitters, but it generally looks like if you lower the amount of information and if you give yourselves an alternative source of fuel like ketones, you can get these mental problems under control. And the efficacy of a ketogenic diet for mental disorders is way higher than SSRIs. Even if you just look at PubMed and scientific studies, it. It works way better. So that's what I tell people to do.
- [30:35]
Alex Clark
Do you feel like the general public really underestimates or misunderstands how traumatic the benzodiazepine era was for your family?
- [30:47]
Michaela Peterson
Oh, definitely. I mean, it's not possible to explain how bad it was. Well, is. Honestly how bad it is, is and was. I've had grandparents pass away from Alzheimer's, which is terrible, but they weren't like, physically. And I also think a lot of that is preventable. But they weren't physically suffering. It wasn't apparent. There were still smiles and things like that. That's not what neurological injury is like. Neurological injury is. It's the most amount of suffering. It's an amount of suffering you don't see as a human, I think, unless you've been in war. Like, even in my mom had cancer, we were in reward. Also traumatizing. And people in there are really suffering, but they're on morphine. They're, like, not suffering as much as these neurological injuries, which you can't treat with medication. So, yeah, people underestimate it, but it's because you don't come across this, I think, unless it happens to somebody in your family. And hopefully it doesn't. Is it hurtful?
- [31:51]
Alex Clark
The rumors online that are saying that your family is covering up, that your dad's just off the wagon.
- [31:56]
Michaela Peterson
He's.
- [31:56]
Alex Clark
He's just in rehab. You know, he's an alcoholic. This is why he can't be seen publicly.
- [32:02]
Michaela Peterson
I don't really care about those. The one that got me, there was a news article yesterday about us covering up how IV stem cells caused sepsis. And then I don't know if you've seen that one that's been. It's so dumb. It's, like, hard to fathom, but. So I've had comments online. They're like, oh, you're just covering up the IV stem cell. I don't. Conspiracy. I was like, that's the stupidest conspiracy I'VE ever heard. I, I guess they're saying your dad got stem cell se. He's sick. So I feel like your family would
- [32:30]
Alex Clark
just say that if that was what was going on.
- [32:32]
Michaela Peterson
First of all. Yeah, it's not like we're like part of big stem cell or something. I don't like, I don't even know where it's coming from. Do they get to me? Yeah, I think cuz I'm, I'm pregnant. This is very stressful. We're also pretty used to people saying stupid things on the Internet. And I'm also, and my family is very hopeful of recovery. So I'm like, it doesn't really matter. And eventually dad will get through this like he has before and come back and then he can explain to people what's going on. But I don't know. There's an endless amount of stupid people on the Internet.
- [33:04]
Alex Clark
You brought up Chris Master John. Do you think that mitochondrial dysfunction explains a lot of this?
- [33:08]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah. Now the, the tricky part is so it looks like being in ketosis gives yourselves an alternative source of energy and that helps mitochondrial function. So that's possibly why part of the reason why ketogenic diet works. Mold wreaks havoc on mitochondria. Psych meds wreak havoc on mitochondria. This is all in the scientific literature. This isn't a, this is as much of a theory as peer reviewed research allows. So yeah, I think likely he's got serious mitochondrial dysfunction from initially being sick for mold and then being treated by these psych meds. The tricky part is, is there isn't like a pill you can take or an injection or an infusion. There's no way to fix this really other than trying to calm down your nervous system, being in ketosis, being careful with your nutrition, sunlight, sleep, you know, trying to be a healthy person and then hopefully your mitochondria can function better. But yeah, I think that's at the basis. It's just, it's, there's not like, like a solution really.
- [34:18]
Alex Clark
These blood work companies are often lying about the price. I keep seeing people say, oh, it's only $30 a month. No, that is not actually what you're going to pay. Here's what happens. You sign up. Great. Then you need your blood drawn. Well, that's extra. You want to talk to a human about your results, that's another fee. You need supplements, separate purchase. You need real treatment like hormones or peptides. Sorry, not available. That cheap membership that you guys are thinking about doing for getting your Biomarkers tested and all of your b blood work actually turns into this expensive scavenger hunt where nothing connects. So this is why I switched to Jevity. Unlike a lot of these other testing companies like Function Health or other ones that are super popular, Jev is not only going to give you all of the answers in your blood work, but they have an entire team to go through your blood work with you and then come up with plans, right? Like, okay, based on your blood work, what supplements would we recommend? What nutrition goals should we set? What lifestyle goals should we set? Nobody else else is doing that. With Jevity. The price is the price. You get comprehensive blood work, over 90 biomarkers tested, a personalized longevity blueprint that actually explains what's going on. You get provider visits included, a care team that you can message supplements, peptides, hormone support, all managed in one place based on your labs. And they retest every six months to actually adjust your plan. That's the difference. It's not just testing. It is testing explanation and actual action. And if you've already wasted money somewhere else and you're sitting on labs that you don't understand and Jevity just launched a free tier. Now this is important. Listen to me. You can upload your results from previous blood work that you've gotten done that you have no idea how to understand without paying anything on gojevity.com and they will tell you what it means. You can use code Alex. Okay. Gojevity.com code Alex. My pregnant friend just found out her rental house has black mold. Not maybe mold, not a little mildew black mold. The kind that lawyers get rich from. She's been dealing with headaches, congestion, weird fatigue, all this stuff people tell you. Oh, it's probably just stress. No. Then the mold remediation guy, he comes in, he runs the test, he says something wild. Thank God you already have Jasper air scrubbers in every room. Otherwise your symptoms would be way worse. That is what really solidified it for me. Okay, these are my real life friends. Jasper is not just some cute air purifier. It is the first air scrubber built specifically for home use using commercial grade power. These guys helped invent commercial grade scrubbers for wildfire smoke mold remediation and disaster cleanup. This is the best air purifier for your house. It is designed to actually live in your house without looking ugly too. It's beautiful. It's engineered in one intentional size. It's big enough to clean your air, compact enough to fit seamlessly into your space. Jasper has Smart sensors that Detect ultra fine PM 2.5 particles. Dust, smoke, pollen, cooking fumes and it captures airborne mold spores with a true HEPA filter. It also removes VOCs, the toxic chemicals released from wall paint, cleaning products, furniture, all the stuff slowly wrecking your indoor air. This is multi threat protection. Wildfire smoke, cigarette smoke, mold, pet dander, odors, chemicals. This is not just my experience. This is thousands of you in my audience, including one of my closest best friends who is pregnant with mold in a rental home dealing with this right now. But she has Jaspers in every room. Jasper is now one of the best selling products of all time with the culture apothecary audience. My friends are telling me their kids are sleeping longer, their snoring is disappearing and sickness is clearing from their homes faster. It is backed by a lifetime warranty because this is a health investment. It is not a temporary seasonal fix. Go to Jasper co jasperjao and use code Alex for a discount. That's Jasper Co JCO with code Alex for a discount. Because if your house is making you sick, clean air is an optional. It's survival. Why is your biggest piece of dating advice for people to take control of their health?
- [38:19]
Michaela Peterson
Diet makes you look so much better. Like being unhealthy isn't. Isn't attractive. No. Now you can get away with like, I had an autoimmune disorder in high school. I looked pretty normal, except pale on the outside. I didn't look like a sick person. And I was like, that's actually kind of nice. I would rather that than looking like how I feel on the inside. But I would do a diet for sure. And that's not just for looks. That's also for mental clarity, for stability in relationships. So you're not so irritable. Let's say you're a healthy person. I would try for sure. I would cut out the processed foods. This is likely what you're telling people, like just eat healthier, like eat meat. Eat a varied diet. If you have any type of anxiety or fatigue issues, that's when I'd start saying like cut out grains, maybe cut out dairy because sometimes dairy can be hard on people. Diet though changes your life.
- [39:12]
Alex Clark
Do you think that people eating crap food can make them worse at sex?
- [39:16]
Michaela Peterson
I mean probably, yeah. It makes them worse at everything. Right. Like it would make some. It makes them irritable, makes them foggy, makes them tired, makes them overweight. So yeah, like I mean likely. Yes. I mean worse libido, worse hormone levels, worse confidence. Yes.
- [39:33]
Alex Clark
Those all of it?
- [39:34]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:35]
Alex Clark
Is there a difference between romantic chemistry and nervous system dysregulation that people mistake for chemistry?
- [39:43]
Michaela Peterson
Yes. I love this. Okay, this is probably just coming from my experience because I haven't looked into a lot of the research and I don't know what the research is for this, but I know that I used to mistake that butterflies feeling you get as something exciting.
- [39:57]
Alex Clark
Same.
- [39:58]
Michaela Peterson
I think every girl below the age of what, 25. Like I don't know, for me it took a while to be like that's not a good sign. But yeah, the butterflies, that's, that's, that's not great. That's like adrenaline.
- [40:12]
Alex Clark
Wait, so if you're on a first date and you're experiencing butterflies, that's bad?
- [40:15]
Michaela Peterson
I think you could have some nerves meeting somebody new. But if you've met them, maybe let's skip the first date. Maybe let's go to like the second or third date.
- [40:23]
Alex Clark
But I think there's a distinct difference. Just as somebody dating, I think there's a distinct difference between the like, wow, there's chem. Well, what you're thinking is chemistry. It's this like romantic butterfly feeling. Like I like this person versus nerves.
- [40:36]
Michaela Peterson
I don't know, I don't know. I. And the reason I'm saying that is cuz when I like when I met my husband I didn't really get the butterfly feeling and I'm like head over heels in love with him. But at the beginning I was like, I don't have that. So this isn't what I'm thinking it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I've talked to a lot of people in long term relationships and they're like, no, like you're supposed to feel safe. What I got from him when I met him, which I found really shocking was, was oh, like I like your vibe. I feel really safe. Which wasn't the same as the butterfly feeling at all. So I'm not, I'm not really super convinced of that. I think the butterfly feeling maybe isn't good. I think what you want is a safe vibe.
- [41:16]
Alex Clark
I think you're on to something with that.
- [41:18]
Michaela Peterson
Even though the butterfly feeling is fun,
- [41:21]
Alex Clark
I experienced this exact same scenario with who I'm dating now. So I know exactly what you're talking about.
- [41:27]
Michaela Peterson
About. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. It was a huge change for me because I pretty much only had butterflies before that. And then I was like, oh wow, you're really safe feeling. Oh that's maybe that's way better. Like maybe that's what I need.
- [41:41]
Alex Clark
You only eat Steak for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I have witnessed this. It's steak and salt. That's literally it. Do you even cook it in butter or anything?
- [41:52]
Michaela Peterson
No. Yeah.
- [41:52]
Alex Clark
There's literally nothing.
- [41:53]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [41:54]
Alex Clark
You've been eating this way for seven years. Years.
- [41:56]
Michaela Peterson
Eight.
- [41:57]
Alex Clark
Eight years. And you call this the lion diet?
- [41:59]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [41:59]
Alex Clark
And you really believe that it's healed you physically but also mentally?
- [42:02]
Michaela Peterson
Like I said at the beginning of the episode, when I first started getting my health under control, I did a very restrictive paleo diet. So a lot of meat, all meats, a lot of green vegetables, root vegetables, and like a tiny bit of fruit. And that really, that really transformed my health until I stopped taking psychiatric medications. And then that blew up all of the sensitivities I had before, which were mostly, I don't want to say psychological, cuz it's something physical is going on. But that was what was harder to get under control. And that's when I eventually went to meet. And I went to just meet because I realized that the higher carb foods were not making me feel good. And then I was eating meat and lettuce and greens for like a year and I still wasn't feeling good. I had some arthritis. I had a baby and. And my arthritis was back in a way. This was, I'd been off medication for almost two years at that point. It was back in a way where if I got off the bed and put pressure on my hand, my wrist would buckle and I was like, no, this isn't coming back. Like I already had this under control. How do I get rid of it? I'll just go down to all meat because I know meat isn't giving me flare ups and then, then I'll add more foods back in. And so that transition was horrible. Just from meat and greens to meat, there was a huge transition which was surprising because I'd been on a, basically a ketogenic diet for a year or so before I did this. And then when I tried to reintroduce foods, I tried it six weeks. I tried olives in olive oil that were like preservative free. And I was like, olives are a health food, so this will be fine. Huge flare up, mostly neurological. So severe depression, all those sensitivities I talked about flared up. I got arthritis again. And I was like, oh God, okay, guess I'm just going to eat meat. And then five months into that, I felt better than I'd ever felt my entire life. So the lingering anxiety went away, which was kind of the last of all my symptoms. To go away. And I was just. I don't know. That's when I went on Rogan the first time. And I was like, this is. I don't know what I said. Maybe everyone should eat this way. I don't know what I said, which isn't. I don't think I quite said that. But I was pretty gung ho about it when I first put everything into remission. And I've been on that since then, throughout the years. So this pregnancy, in the first trimester, I had a really, really bad meat aversion. I'm going to have had three babies in the last two and a half years. And I was like, I cannot do a mute aversion again. I'm just not going to eat. Which you can't do when you're pregnant. But so I was like, I've got to try adding some things in because I'm so miserable. So I tried to add in some arugula, like pan fried arugula, some lettuce. I had some broccoli at one point. Point I had frownin. Mango, coconut ice cream.
- [44:39]
Alex Clark
Yeah.
- [44:40]
Michaela Peterson
Which after eight years of not eating anything was like the best thing I've had in my entire life. And the good news was my arthritis didn't come back with those foods, which shocked me. And there's a confounding variable of my pregnancy which can dampen down your immune system. So it's possible that that's why the arthritis didn't come back. But either way, my arthritis usually gets. Before I was on the diet, it would get worse, worse with any foods. So I think that was a step in the right direction. But eventually I started getting, like, depressed enough that I didn't want to continue. And I had a gallbladder attack, I think, from, I don't know, eating a whole bunch of greens. You're supposed to get a gallbladder attack from saturated fats, but obviously that's not a trigger for me. But the gallbladder attack was enough for me to be like, I'm gonna go back to. To meat again. And then my meat aversion went away. Thank God.
- [45:30]
Alex Clark
So getting enough vitamins and minerals from all these sources, I mean, are you doing supplements? Does that bother you?
- [45:36]
Michaela Peterson
Supplements do bother me. For the first six years, I didn't to. I didn't do anything. I. I didn't take vitamins. Vitamins were giving me neurological symptoms. And it turns out a lot of people who have injuries from psych meds can't tolerate, specifically B vitamins. B vitamins. Induce flare ups of these neurological symptoms. I don't think anyone knows exactly why, why they're like B vitamins play a role in mitochondrial function and so maybe there's something damaged there and you end up with kind of an overflow of B vitamins that causes discomfort and insomnia and agitation. Those are usually the symptoms. So. But no one, no one actually knows. Recently though, I've started like for this pregnancy and for my last one, felinic acid, which is a form of folate. And if you only eat meat for long enough, your folate levels do get low, low. So that's something you should keep if anyone's doing it or thinking about doing it. This is long term. This was like six years into the diet. But folate started to get low and for pregnancy that's like, that's way too much of a risk. So I started doing felinic acid injections. They're also using that to treat autism in children. That seems to be somewhat tolerable. So that was a miracle because I've tried folic acid, couldn't do that. Methylfolate was horrible. I've tried all the different forms and I kept getting these like insomnia reaction. And folinic acid seems to be flavorful. Fine, no explanation for that. But the other vitamins seem to be covered by just eating meat which is shocking really to people. The other thing I've been keeping an eye on is B1 because now that I've been on this DIET Basically for eight years, give or take the like eight weeks of some greens that was recent. B1 is on the lower end. It's, it's hard to take my vitamin level seriously cuz I've. This is my third pregnancy in two and a half years and that just depletes you. But most people know, most people who are long term carnivores, their vitamins look good.
- [47:28]
Alex Clark
So this is what I don't understand. You and your husband both eat this way. One, I just, I can't even imagine what your, your food budget is because you're eating like four steaks each for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Why only steak? Like why aren't you adding lamb in or duck or chicken or fish or like other forms.
- [47:44]
Michaela Peterson
So now I mostly eat Korean short ribs. When I saw you at the conference and I was having steak that. I haven't eaten steak like that probably since. Probably for about a year and a half I've been on a Korean short rib kick. So that's. My diet is Korean short ribs. But not adding In I was on lamb for two years when I got really sick from mold in Miami. I only ate lamb for two years because I couldn't tolerate the histamine and beef which was miserable. Cuz I don't really like lamb. Before I was dieting the only.
- [48:16]
Alex Clark
Well, I wouldn't like lamb either because you can't do any freaking seasonings. That's what the, the craziest part is like. I love lamb chops but I'm doing garlic powder and rosemary and thyme.
- [48:24]
Michaela Peterson
You're like covering the lamb a little. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [48:28]
Alex Clark
And you're just plain.
- [48:29]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah. It turns out Colorado lamb though doesn't have that lamby horrible flavor like New Zealand lamb does.
- [48:35]
Alex Clark
Good news for the lamb haters out there. And no fish.
- [48:38]
Michaela Peterson
I can do a little bit of fish now, but I don't because it doesn't fill me up. What? You're like, things are weird once you only eat meat. Like you're pretty sensitive to what you eat and fish is like I feel like I could eat three or four pounds of fish without being full. Full.
- [48:51]
Alex Clark
And you can't do any type of egg, duck, chicken, nothing.
- [48:53]
Michaela Peterson
I am super allergic to eggs. Like normal allergy to eggs. I, I, the allergy to egg is so bad that I haven't tried a duck egg.
- [49:01]
Alex Clark
So I can't do chicken eggs. And I do great on duck eggs.
- [49:03]
Michaela Peterson
Really? What happens? Is it violent?
- [49:05]
Alex Clark
No, I just throw up. Like I'll immediately throw up if I have a chicken egg now.
- [49:08]
Michaela Peterson
Okay. That's kind of what happens to me.
- [49:10]
Alex Clark
Yeah.
- [49:11]
Michaela Peterson
Except the last time I had a reaction to that, I took a, I was trying to take a supplement for this like gut healing protocol. I did did after mold and it had, it was like may contain egg white and I was like in the bathroom ill for 12 hours and I was like, it was like food poisoning level and I was like oh my gosh, never again. So no egg and chicken makes me groggy in the morning and I don't really like it after eating meat for so long. And duck. Nothing dramatic, you know, chicken, fish, duck dramatic. I haven't tried Frost frog. Be hard to survive off of frog. That's true. It's too, it's like such a lot of frogs. Yeah.
- [49:48]
Alex Clark
And you have three kids, they're not eating this way.
- [49:50]
Michaela Peterson
No.
- [49:51]
Alex Clark
What do they eat?
- [49:52]
Michaela Peterson
Well, kind of. So my 8 year old is on a paleo diet. She's been on that forever. When, when she was little I started her off on just meat. So we did do like breastfeeding breast milk, then meat, till she was honestly about three, and then did one food at a time time. And I was hyper paranoid about this because of all these health issues that run in my family that I was like, I want to be really careful that I'm not gonna have a.
- [50:21]
Alex Clark
You think he waited too long with her? Like, you know, didn't introduce peanuts and things?
- [50:24]
Michaela Peterson
Like, no, she doesn't have. So she lived with us in Miami, and she got sick from mold, and that sprouted up environmental allergies, but she doesn't have any food allergies. She's. She's extremely healthy kid. She's a bit sensitive to, like. Like, if we go into a musty place, then she doesn't feel good, but that's about it. And she eats. Like, if she'll go to school. She's 8 years old, so she'll go to school and it'll be the end of the year. And they have junk everywhere for the last two weeks of school. And she's pretty good at knowing how foods make her feel now, but she'll have some foods sometime. The only thing that she really cannot tolerate is anything with gluten. And I think that comes from. From my mom's side, where celiac disease runs. So that was actually like, her primary care kind of regular doctor was like, don't eat gluten for her. It was really hurting.
- [51:15]
Alex Clark
And was she vaccinated? Were any of your kids vaccinated?
- [51:18]
Michaela Peterson
No.
- [51:18]
Alex Clark
That's so fascinating. So who is the lion diet ideal for?
- [51:22]
Michaela Peterson
People who have been medicated for a long time, people with extremely severe psychiatric illnesses, people with ner, people who are trying to get off of psychiatric medications, people with autoimmune disorders. Like, the lion diet is aimed towards the sick people that nobody can help.
- [51:42]
Alex Clark
Do women have to worry about what this is going to do to their menstrual cycle?
- [51:45]
Michaela Peterson
I mean, it doesn't look like it, no. What impacted, like, it. It. If anything, it improved mine. Like, mine used to be painful, and it stopped being painful, but I never had. Even with. When I was on the birth control pill. I mean, I didn't really have, thank God, any repercussions from coming off of that or anything. Like, the only time that my period got weird was when I got. When I really moved to Miami and got sick from mold. And then my hormones tanked. Like, it was brutal. I had no idea what was going on. And as soon as I figured out it was mold and moved out, I got pregnant. So, no, I don't think they have to worry about that. But also I think that if they're not dealing with something that's really severe, like autoimmunity or mental illness, then there's likely no need to just be eating meat. They could probably try the carnivore diet to get healthy or even start with a paleo diet and see if just cutting processed food solves your problem.
- [52:38]
Alex Clark
This is for like the extreme cases.
- [52:40]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah. It's an elimination diet. And the idea is hopefully what you can do is go down to just meat. Do that until your symptoms go into remission. And this does seem to work for people. And then start adding foods back in and see how your body responds response. Because it's very difficult to monitor what's impacting you in your diet unless you go down to one variable.
- [52:57]
Alex Clark
But you do drink vodka, right?
- [52:58]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [52:59]
Alex Clark
So it's steak and vodka.
- [53:01]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah. That really discredits the whole thing.
- [53:04]
Alex Clark
What's harder, being sober ish in public or only eating steak in public settings?
- [53:08]
Michaela Peterson
But I feel like people kind of look at that and they're like, kind of wish I was doing that like a little.
- [53:12]
Alex Clark
Yeah, but how can you get, how can you get away with drinking alcohol?
- [53:15]
Michaela Peterson
So I didn't drink alcohol initially. It wasn't like a stink fake alcohol diet initially. For the first two years I didn't have anything to drink and I drank a lot. I drank an unhealthy amount when I was sick because honestly, being drunk was the only time I felt the mental illness leave a little. And obviously I was drunk. But it was like, oh, the overwhelming doom and pain and horror has receded. So obviously drinking is like, is. It's a nice thing to do. That was obviously not like long term sustainable. But I drank a lot before I started to get healthy. I don't drink very much anymore. But I did figure out through trial and error that it doesn't provoke immune responses and it doesn't provoke these neurological issues. Now I'd be careful if I was someone who was having neurological issues with alcohol, obviously, because it works on gaba. Like anyone who's been injured by benzodiazepines. I don't know if they could get away with it.
- [54:15]
Alex Clark
Yeah.
- [54:15]
Michaela Peterson
But for whatever reason I can. So thank goodness for that. That's like the one vice. But I had a bad reaction. Like I can't drink beer, I can't drink wine at all. I had a bad reaction years and years ago when I was really early on on this when I was trying out alcohol with to gin. And it was because it had almond extract in it. So I was like, okay, so I can have like vodka with nothing in it or silver tequila because it has nothing in it. Sparkling water. It's kind of a depressing drink. But like, no, it doesn't give me an immune response. And so I'm pretty happy about that.
- [54:51]
Alex Clark
At least you have your sense of smell. You can smell nice things.
- [54:54]
Michaela Peterson
That's true. That is very true. You don't miss it though, like eating food. No, you don't. Not after a while.
- [55:01]
Alex Clark
I don't know. You can convince me on that one.
- [55:03]
Michaela Peterson
You don't. You don't. It takes about four weeks. The four weeks, six weeks maybe.
- [55:08]
Alex Clark
I guess if you're that horrible, it probably would. You're you. It does feel like freedom after being in the prison of the neurological pain and suffering that you're in.
- [55:17]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [55:17]
Alex Clark
And that, weirdly, ironically enough, it becomes freedom.
- [55:21]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [55:21]
Alex Clark
Although it all sounds like prison to me.
- [55:23]
Michaela Peterson
I mean, it would be. It would be. If I wasn't on it, if the alternative wasn't worse for, like, I wouldn't be doing this. Even when I started eating greens again, again in first trimester, I was like, I was ecstatic. I was like pan fried arugula. I don't even know if people eat that. Amazing, Incredible. Like, wonderful. But then after about a month of doing that and like I said, confounding variables with first trimester pregnancy, where there's a bunch of symptoms that go up and down and the gallbladder attack, I was like, nah. And I don't miss it now that I'm not having a meat aversion. So, yeah, you get used to it. And for chronically ill people, life is so awful that cutting things out of your diet and having life not be awful is just way better.
- [56:07]
Alex Clark
You talked about the mold. You had breast implants, then got them removed after the whole mold debacle, right?
- [56:12]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [56:13]
Alex Clark
Okay. So have your views on, on beauty treatments, plastic surgery, botox, changed in, in the years or stayed the same?
- [56:22]
Michaela Peterson
No, I'm pretty pro that stuff.
- [56:24]
Alex Clark
Why? Explain this.
- [56:25]
Michaela Peterson
I mean, you guys so pissed off.
- [56:26]
Alex Clark
This is the most controversial thing I talk about on the show. I don't know why everybody gets so mad.
- [56:31]
Michaela Peterson
You know what I had? I'm not going to get into what, plastic surgery, Because I'm going to save this for my podcast. But I've had plastic surgery done and I was never, I think because of all the trauma I went through, I wasn't that attached to what I looked like because I could see pain and suffering in my face and was like, I don't care if I don't see that anymore anymore.
- [56:51]
Alex Clark
Do you feel like part of you, it was a trauma response to get plastic surgery after going through what you went through because you wanted to be a different person?
- [56:57]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, yeah, maybe. I like, and I've thought about that, but I don't. I don't care, really. But. But yeah, possibly for sure. When I was 20, I went to makeup school because when I was in high school and I felt so bad, I was so sick, I used to do my makeup and be like, at least I can look okay on the outside. And so that's been ingrained for me from, like, a very young age. But no, I'm like, I'm not, like, classically conservative about these things. I think as long as it doesn't hurt you or make you diseased, it's not a problem. Now, breast implants are a bit tricky because some people seem to have extremely negative reactions to that.
- [57:41]
Alex Clark
Well, anybody with autoimmune disease, you are. You are, like, almost guaranteeing you're gonna have breast implant illness with breast cancer implants.
- [57:47]
Michaela Peterson
It seems to be that way. Yeah. I'd be more concerned around the medication that they give you during plastic surgery than the actual plastic surgery. The other thing, like, for me, I have had surgery so many times. I've been pretty desensitized compared to the average person. Like, I had my ankle replaced twice. I had my hip replaced at 17. Like, I've been under general anesthetic starting when I was eight for joint injections. Like, I have had surgery. I probably had surgery 1, 2, and then was under general anesthetic four more times. So six times before I was 18. So it's just not as big of a deal to me, I guess.
- [58:22]
Alex Clark
Do you get Botox?
- [58:23]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah. That's never provoked an immune response either,
- [58:26]
Alex Clark
because, you know, people are going to say that. They're going to say, how can you be eating this way and doing all this? But then you're doing that. That's probably what's making you sick. That's what they're going to say.
- [58:34]
Michaela Peterson
Well, I mean, that's silly because I was sick from age 7 and I started getting Botox. I think when I was. I got Botox in my frown lens when I was 23 because I was extremely depressed. And that was actually my mom's idea, was like, maybe you should try Botox. And I tried Botox and it was like my whole face, I was glaring all the time, and it was like, My whole face relaxed, and I was like, oh, wow. And I read a study recently that showed that you can kind of impact your mental state by doing that, because holding yourself in certain positions increases some depressive symptoms. So if you're slouching, if you're glaring, if you're frowning makes you feel different than if you're smiling. Smiling. So not to be pro Botox, I don't know how long I'm gonna continue or if I'm gonna continue Botox, because I've seen a lot of people online be like, yeah, I did it for 10 years. And then suddenly something terrible happened to me. Oh, my gosh.
- [59:24]
Alex Clark
Yeah.
- [59:25]
Michaela Peterson
What happened?
- [59:26]
Alex Clark
So I started getting it in my mid-20s. Just very minimal amount just in my forehead, because I was like, okay, preventative. I don't want my face to naturally settle into frown lines. So I was doing that. And then. Then In August of 2023, I had some Botox. And then a month later, I was getting my hair done, and my hair stylist was like, something's not right. You're like, your hair is falling out like crazy. It never. You never lose this much hair. When I wash your hair, she's like, you need to go get your thyroid checked. So then I went and got my thyroid checked and then found out that I had Hashimoto's and that, you know, born Botox was probably making that way worse. And. And not only was I losing hair, but that week that I had gotten Botox, I was severely sick, like, flu symptoms for the entire week, which had never happened before. So it was like fever, chills, all these things. So after that, in August 2023, I never, ever have gotten it again because I was like, I wonder if the next time I get it, I'm gonna have full blown Botox poisoning.
- [60:29]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah.
- [60:30]
Alex Clark
My body just started rejecting. At the exact same time, my body also started rejecting my eyelash extensions.
- [60:34]
Michaela Peterson
Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Okay, okay.
- [60:36]
Alex Clark
My eyes were swelling up. It was the exact same month my eyes were. It's like my body was like, no more fake stuff.
- [60:40]
Michaela Peterson
You've probably screened your house for mold, right?
- [60:43]
Alex Clark
Well, yeah. I mean, I was in an apartment at the time, and there was no
- [60:45]
Michaela Peterson
mold during this pregnancy. I had to stop. So I'm wearing. What's the company? I don't know. They're like cluster lashes that you can put on. On the edges. Yeah, they look good. They look fine. But I. I wore fake lashes for, like, eight years. I don't know how long. Like, getting my lashes done every two Weeks, which is a huge time suck. But I was like, once you get them on, you look like a naked mole rat once they're off. And it's like my eyes, so soft.
- [61:08]
Alex Clark
It takes getting used to it.
- [61:10]
Michaela Peterson
So. But this pregnancy, I kept reacting to them and they switched glues and eventually I was like, can't do that anymore. So now I have like clusters at the very edge, which is honestly, it's way better. I like the clusters and I don't seem to be allergic to this glue, but it's different than like having them on. Yeah, that happened to me. I had like bloodshot red eyes and
- [61:31]
Alex Clark
burning, burning, itching, Constant itching. It was horrible. Yeah. So I had to stop. So I haven't done that either. I can do lashes, strips, but you know, there's formaldehyde in that glue. There's all kinds of bad stuff in lash glue. So it's just, it's. Yeah, it's tough. Did you go to school with the orange girl? Be honest. Or were you the orange girl, just walking around like a traffic cone with lip gloss? We've all had a bronzer era. That should have come with a legal guardian and a court date. Some of you never left that era. You're 34. And that's why I'm telling you about Adele Natural Cosmic Cosmetics. Because at a certain point, you have to stop looking like you fell into a vat of Cheeto dust. Adele is a family owned, Texas based company making actually clean, non toxic makeup. And here's the part that I really love. They are literally going to color match you for free. They've declared war on the orange girl. Curse you. Email Adele Natural Cosmetics. They tell you what to wear. You stop looking insane. It's revolutionary. Try Adele's Blue Lagoon Face Balm while you're at it. It hydrates your skin without looking greasy. And Adele's loose powder foundation. Foundation is so popular because it corrects while letting your skin breathe. What a concept. Go to Adele natural cosmetics.com use code ALEX for 25 off your first order. Get color matched and re enter society looking like a human being and not a cheeto. Adele natural cosmetics.com use code ALEX for 25 off your first order. You ever been on a first date with someone and they hit you with so did you vote? And you have that moment where you're like, okay, wait, do I lie? Do I cry? Do I explain that there was a typo on my voter registration and I. And I didn't find out until it was too late because that's the reality. Most people think they're registered. They assume everything is fine. Meanwhile, like one in four people either aren't registered to vote or aren't even sure. And you don't realize it till you're standing there looking like you just failed a citizenship test. You move, you change your name, you haven't voted in a while, or there's just some random error. So if you want to make sure that you're registered to vote, go to real alexclark.comvote. you can check your registration in like 30 seconds from your phone. Real Alex Clark does.comvote. it walks you through everything. Just handle it now so you're not explaining typos on the first date. I want to talk a little bit about your. Your faith journey. In the last year, you announced that you believed in Christianity but not like you do now and that you now know that the Bible is true. Can you walk us through exactly what was stirring in your heart?
- [63:51]
Michaela Peterson
When my mom recovered from cancer, she recovered in a pretty miraculous way. Like I would qualify that as a miracle. Miracle. They did the surgery, then they did. There was a surgical mishap or whatever they call that, that nearly killed her and there was no way to solve it. She flew to the US they did this experimental surgery that didn't work. And she said when that was happening, God told me, this is coming from a non religious woman. God told me that he would heal me on my anniversary. And at the time she was on morphine in the hospital. And I was like that, okay, mom, you know you're on painkillers in the hospital. And. And so she went to the US the they tried to fix it. It didn't work. She came home and on her anniversary, so this is three weeks later, she's being monitored by a doctor like daily because she's dying from the surgical problem. It resolves on her anniversary. And the surgeons didn't know what to say and the hospital didn't know what to say. And we were just like, well, that's really hard to explain, especially because mom. So she had. She'd been reading the Bible, doing the rosary. I'm not a Catholic. Catholic, but like she's, she's a Catholic. But whatever happened there, something happened and she changed. She got softer, less irritable. Like there was an entire vibe change. And I remember looking at that being like whatever that piece she has, I want like that she's on to something, but I don't know how. You can't force yourself to believe. Then I met my husband and He. He grew up, like, Protestant Christian, and he had this safe vibe. And I was like, whoa, like, what's that vibe you have? Like, that's a nice, like, nice vibe. And I met his family and I was like, your family's got a really good vibe, too. Like, what is this calm vibe that everybody has? So I started reading the Bible and things and was like, I'm saved. This is what Christianity is. And so I started talking about it back then, but then I think it was a year and a half later or something like. Like, that I had an actual, like, spiritual experience. It was dramatic for me, but, like, I guess my life is. I'm like, come from a dramatic family. So maybe it had to be dramatic for me to, like, clue in. But I was shown, like, all the tiny ways in my life in which I was sinning. Smaller things that you kind of just do without thinking about how. How actually bad they are. And I was shown how ter. Like, how evil even little things like that are. Are. And something clicked like, that day. This is something I was stuck on. And I don't even know where I was stuck on it. Understanding the Trinity. I was like, how can three be one? And there was just, like, something in my head that was like, you aren't going to fully understand this because it's out of your capacity to fully rationalize this. This is the entire point of faith. Yeah, you have faith because it's not quite explainable. And it just like. And then that was it. And I was like, oh. And then when I started reading the Bible, which I had read before, and I had been reading it, like, started popping out, which people talk about. Like, there were things I'd be like, oh, my gosh, I read that before, but I never, like, saw the words. Like, a lot of the demonic stuff that I had read, I hadn't remembered or something. And I reread it and was like, whoa, there's a lot about this spiritual realm in here. Like, I hadn't seen that before. And so that's how I changed from being like, yes, I. I believe. You know, I believe in the. The res Resurrection. Like, I. I believe to, like. I know. So that was a crazy experience. I tried to talk to my dad about that too. I was like, this is crazy. We're rocking around in a spiritual realm. What did he say? He kind of just, like, looked at me and was like, hm, you know, like. Like, Michaela's gone off the rails again. I don't know.
- [67:29]
Alex Clark
Where would you say your dad is at in his Faith journey.
- [67:32]
Michaela Peterson
It's really hard to say. He, like, he's not, not, he's not full blown, but like parts of him are. So I still think, I mean he, he certainly doesn't think about it the way I think about it. He's got a lot of rationality and intellectualism to contend with.
- [67:53]
Alex Clark
What do you think people misunderstand about Jordan Peterson's relationship with faith?
- [67:57]
Michaela Peterson
I think when they criticize him, they're not, first of all, even biblically, it's not. And in my experience, it's not just up to a person to be like now I believe if it was that easy, like, I don't think it's that easy. I think, I think God decides when it's time, but I think when he gets criticism, they're, they're not taking into the fact that he's one of the major voices behind this resurgence, I think, and in popularity of Christianity now. There's a number of voices behind that. Like, like Bishop Barron's certainly behind that. Like, there are, there are a number of people online talking about that. It doesn't solely go to dad, but he did, he did start talking about it a very long time ago and blowing it up from more of an intellectual perspective of the Bible. But I think like scoffing at people who aren't necessarily believers, like a Protestant or a Catholic is a Christian. Classically is, isn't even quite biblical because you can't just turn that on.
- [69:01]
Alex Clark
Do you think your dad views the Bible as kind of like historic and, and interesting, not necessarily like living, breathing word of God? Like, how do you think he views scripture?
- [69:13]
Michaela Peterson
No, no, I think he thinks of it as living, breathing word of God. Okay, like, like I do. I mean, he thinks when, when we're building Peterson Academy, he was like, we need to have this kind of ethos underneath. Now it's not a like, but like Western society. It needs to be the foundation. He's not as straight up about being like, you know, if I'm like, that person seems demonic, he's not going to be like, he's not going to agree with like that kind of more severe perspective. It's nuanced. I think it's really been confounded because he's been suffering so unbelievably much. And like, I remember when I was sick with like arthritis and things as a teenager being. I remember I was, I was in so much pain. This was when I had my hip and ankle replaced. And I remember walking to the diner, limping to the diner, being like, if There is a God. It's not a good God. Like, how could they do this to me? And so I think it's just, it's so tricky for people suffering. Not that Christians don't suffer too.
- [70:13]
Alex Clark
What do you think about that now?
- [70:14]
Michaela Peterson
I wasn't taking Satan into consideration, you know, so I, like, that was obviously the wrong way of thinking about it entirely, really. And like, yes, there's horrors on this world, but we live on a fallen world and suffering is a part of life. And being a Christian certainly isn't going to stop the suffering, but hopefully it gives you a something to lean on while you're trying to survive life.
- [70:36]
Alex Clark
Are you guys involved in a church locally where you live or, or, or what do you do?
- [70:41]
Michaela Peterson
For the last couple years, I've been watching a lot online, like much more than I've been going in. And that's partly because. Because as crazy as this sounds, I'm still really sensitive to buildings and a lot of churches don't have great air quality. And so I get hit and I can't get hit once a week. So I've been listening to this pastor that I liked from Miami. It's called the Cross Church. It's really tiny church in Miami. But the pastor is like, he's not political, he's not preachy. He's just like a good person. And that really speaks to me. I had an issue with Miami. We went to a number of churches and it felt like a lot of time the, the pastors were performative and I think Dad's seen a lot of that too. And that's kind of what pushed him away a bit, which is like when you see somebody on stage and they're really like, they're kind of lying. Like it looks like someone's lying or performative, which is a big turnoff. But I've, but that's not a good representation obviously of Christianity. It's just unfortunate. Part of some people who are pastors. Yeah, I think a lot of that
- [71:41]
Alex Clark
is like the prosperity gospel, which is not the real gospel.
- [71:44]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, that kind of thing.
- [71:45]
Alex Clark
You know, you have really good distribution discernment to, to pick that out, I think.
- [71:48]
Michaela Peterson
Thank you.
- [71:49]
Alex Clark
More than anything. What would you like to see the Trump admin and Secretary Kennedy work on next when it comes to health in Maha?
- [71:57]
Michaela Peterson
Well, I cannot believe how much they have got done. I can't believe it. I thought I was going to be jumping up and down about psych med injury and, and dietary change for like 30 years. And it was just like, guys, the Food pyramids upside down. Well. Oh, okay, that's fixed. Great. Don't have to jump up and down about that anymore, I guess. And then SSRIs, like, and. And psych meds. This tapering schedule is killing people. And then it was like, oh, those guidelines are getting changed. Bunch of people are still screwed, but at least more people are going to be safer now. So what's left after that? For me, I would, I would tackle indoor air quality issues. So in countries like, like Switzerland's a good example. All the houses are hundreds and hundreds of years old. But ERVs which exchange indoor and outdoor air are mandated in all these old buildings. So when you go in, it's not musty, it's not stale, there's exchange of air. It's that simple. And in America we have these houses build with dry, built with drywall, which is basically paper. So if they get wet once they get moldy. And there's no indoor outdoor air exchange change. So you're living in a fish tank. So all that needs to change. Like, yeah, mold awareness needs to happen. We need proper treatments, like all of that. What we need is indoor outdoor air exchange and building codes.
- [73:17]
Alex Clark
How does the air feel and smell in here?
- [73:19]
Michaela Peterson
This could be a lot worse. This is actually pretty good.
- [73:21]
Alex Clark
I have a Jasper running.
- [73:22]
Michaela Peterson
Do you have a Jasper?
- [73:23]
Alex Clark
Do you have an air purifier?
- [73:24]
Michaela Peterson
Oh my. You should see our air purification system. It's like, it's industrial because we have
- [73:30]
Alex Clark
like what we film and people can't tell, you know, just watching on YouTube or whatever. But this is, I mean, it's a garage, so.
- [73:35]
Michaela Peterson
No, no, it's good. Yeah, I was prepared. I like, usually we'll go to a podcast, get a bit foggy, but no, you guys did a good job. Woo.
- [73:43]
Alex Clark
I'm done. Mike from Jasper is going to love hearing that. Okay, tell us about your podcast, because you have a podcast, which is fantastic. What types of interviews do you do? How often do you release all that?
- [73:52]
Michaela Peterson
So the last two years have been pretty spotty with the pregnancies. I'm like more hopeful during this interview because we've had a couple days where symptoms haven't been as severe. They're still catastrophic, but like, at least trajectory is looking better.
- [74:05]
Alex Clark
You mean for your dad?
- [74:06]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah, otherwise I wouldn't be able to come do this. I've just had no interest in doing anything. So my podcast has been super spotty this year. But I started re releasing it's pretty focused on health, so kind of similar to what you do, but but different. I'm like, I'm getting some weirdos on there.
- [74:23]
Alex Clark
You like to go a little bit more deeper. You're really for the intellectuals, I think, which makes sense for your family. My episodes are too, too, but, but you just, you go on to it as another level. I think I'm dealing more with beginners than you are.
- [74:34]
Michaela Peterson
Yeah. I think a lot of my audience
- [74:36]
Alex Clark
is like hearing this stuff for the first time and you're like, okay, these are for the seasoned pros that are
- [74:40]
Michaela Peterson
literally only eating meat and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. You know, like I just had one about mitochondrial dysfunction and kind of skipped the intro part was just like, well, you know, on a cellular level, what's going on? Which is kind of a selfish way of doing a podcast really. But so I have. I think the majority of the episodes I've released are alternative health focus. Like my second episode was on mold. Before I was like, mold isn't impacting me. Then it took like four years for me to be like, oh, the second episode I was about mold. And that was my problem. And then I have some comedians. I do like political people sometimes. So it's kind of eclectic. A lot of alternative health and what's it called? Michaela Peterson Podcast.
- [75:19]
Alex Clark
And where can you listen?
- [75:20]
Michaela Peterson
YouTube, Spotify, Rumble, wherever podcasts are.
- [75:24]
Alex Clark
And where can people follow you on social media?
- [75:26]
Michaela Peterson
They can go to Instagram. I'm Michaela Peterson on Instagram, my website, Michaela Peterson.com and then if they're interested in any of these, like Lion Diet Psych Med, like that's our mold exposure. I have a non profit called Fuller Research foundation and that's FullerResearch.org and it lists all these like other kind of ventures to spread awareness about these serious root causes of health problems.
- [75:54]
Alex Clark
If you could offer one remedy to helicit culture physically, emotionally or spiritually, what would it be?
- [76:00]
Michaela Peterson
I would say get the processed food out of your diet. It's transformative. People think, oh, I'll have like, what? I won't be bloated. Like, that's what people think. And like, no, you might cure a genetic mental problem. Yeah, get the processed food. Stop eating processed foods and chemicals.
- [76:17]
Alex Clark
Michaela, I've been wanting to have you on for years. So happy we could do it. I know we covered like a lot
- [76:22]
Michaela Peterson
of stuff in a very short amount of time.
- [76:23]
Alex Clark
So it was bit, a little, little bit. It was a little bit wild. But there's so much that I wanted to hear your opinion on and get your take on and just kind of introduce you to my audience. You've got to go back. She has so much good content on YouTube and everything, you know, in depth on each of these subjects that we covered. But I've always appreciated how candid your family is with the amount of attacks that you guys get. I think you guys are always truth tellers. You know, even when that could be humiliating or embarrassing or vulnerable, you guys are truth tellers. And I I think we need more of that. And you guys aren't trying to impress anybody. You're just trying to help people with the information that you put out. And I think that's a really noble mission that your family has.
- [77:05]
Michaela Peterson
That was really sweet. Thank you.
- [77:07]
Alex Clark
Thank you for coming on.
- [77:08]
Michaela Peterson
Thanks for having me.
- [77:12]
Alex Clark
I think what makes conversations like this so powerful is that they force us to ask a terrifying question. What if a huge percentage of modern suffering isn't random? What if it is coming from SSRIs or the food that we're eating? Or even spiritual issues? New episodes come out every Monday and Thursday at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. Anywhere you get your podcast, please leave us a five star review on Apple or Spotify. Support Michaela Let us know which episode has been your favorite or which episode you love to send people. It just takes two seconds to do and it immensely helps the show. This content is for informational purposes only and is not intended to be taken as medical advice advice. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional regarding any questions or decisions related to your health or medical care. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.