← Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Toxic Empathy & How To Put Family First As A Working Mother | Allie Beth Stuckey
01:04:40
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- [00:00]
A
Relatable is the number one podcast for Christian conservative women. You've now written two books. What is your trick to being able to do all of that outside the home, plus prioritizing your family and your children and making sure that they come first?
- [00:14]
B
I don't think that every job is conducive to motherhood.
- [00:19]
A
Do you think that a misunderstanding between Christian female voters and what it truly means to be empathetic could possibly sway the election?
- [00:29]
B
Toxic empathy is the primary tool that progressives use to manipulate women into being on the left. Their politics drives their theology, not the other way around.
- [00:39]
A
Why do Christian women especially have such a difficult time standing firm against the mantra love is love?
- [00:47]
B
We've gone from love is love to let's subsidize egg selling and womb renting and drag queens reading stories and libraries really fast. There is a difference between love and and empathy. Love, according to the God who is love is inextricably intertwined with the truth. There are a lot of people that demand our feelings. So instead of asking the question how do we feel? Or how does this person make us feel? We have to ask the question, but what is right?
- [01:40]
A
Why is it so easy for Christian women in particular to get manipulated on issues like gay marriage, abortion, illegal immigration or other social justice topics? It's because of progressives using what Ali Stuckey calls toxic empathy to trick Christians. Ali is on the show today to discuss her new book, Toxic Empathy How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion and answer some burning questions I know you guys have about her being a working mom. As a Christian, what does she think of people who say that women shouldn't work outside the home? What is her schedule actually like? What are her education plans for her kids, and much more. Watch this interview on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel or culture Apothecary on Spotify. This podcast is made possible with donations from listeners like you who believe in our mission to helic culture physically, emotionally and spiritually. Make a tax deductible donation through the link in our show notes. Please welcome author and host host of Relatable in my friend Ali Stuckey to Culture Apothecary. Toxic empathy or empathy telling somebody that they need to wear socks with their sandals on a plane.
- [02:49]
B
They shouldn't be wearing socks with sandals. That's the first problem that in and of itself is a toxic choice. It's not hard to just put socks and shoes on. You're not a toddler. You don't need to be wearing Crocs. Just wear your socks and shoes. If you Absolutely must. If you are on a long international flight and your puppies need to breathe, you can take off your shoes. Do not take off your socks. Actually, Alex.
- [03:14]
A
What?
- [03:14]
B
On the way here, I have a harrowing tale. The person, and this is the worst person to do this, because I had a direct line of sight, the person, like, diagonally in front of me, took off his shoes and had his bare foot, his bare grown man toes up on the little wall in front of him. There is no reason for that. No one wants to smell that. No one wants to see that. It's not toxic of me to say that that, is it? Is it? It's toxic to do that in many ways.
- [03:47]
A
Do you think that a misunderstanding between Christian female voters and what it truly means to be empathetic could possibly sway the election?
- [03:58]
B
Absolutely. I think that toxic empathy is the primary tool that progressives use to manipulate women into being on the left. That's basically all it is. Not to say that those women are not smart, that they never critically think. I'm not trying to condemn them as dumb. But because women are naturally compassionate, we're naturally feelers, and not all emotions are bad because we have this natural caretaking instinct, even this mothering instinct, whether or not you're a biological mother. When we are presented with a victim, whether it's by the media, whether it's entertainment, whether it's by these politicians, our instinct is to take care of them. Our instinct is to defend them, to advocate for them. I think that a huge portion of the social justice movement is misplaced mothering women channeling their natural mothering instincts into social justice causes, thinking that they are defending the illegal or undocumented migrant. They are defending the marginalized person that's been a victim of systemic racism. They are defending the woman who has to have an abortion because of her unfortunate circumstances. They're even defending the trans child who was born in the wrong body. Because of that, they not only feel very strongly about their causes, but they are convinced that their causes are righteous. It's almost a spiritual mission for a lot of women to play devil's advocate.
- [05:33]
A
Are you saying that it is a sin to be empathetic to people who are different than you?
- [05:38]
B
I'm saying that empathy is a poor leader. I was talking with Abigail Schreier, who wrote Bad Therapy. I know you've talked to Abigail, and we were talking about empathy because it's something that she writes about in her book. And actually she's harsher about empathy even than I am in my book. But she Kind of pushed me in her direction. Through her research, she found that the more you encourage empathy in kids, actually, the meaner they can be, the nastier they can be, the more exclusive they can be. Because the thing about empathy is if I put myself in your shoes, I'm firmly in your shoes. I can see Alex Clark's position. I know your perspective. I feel what you feel. That means anyone who is opposed to you, who disagrees with you, is now my enemy. That person has become an oppressor because they are opposed to Alex Clark. They don't just disagree with you because I am you. I have your feelings now. That person, the person that you think opposes you, that person now opposes me, too. And so you are no longer able to see objective reality or morality. You can only see what the person feels that you have decided is the victim. And so it's not always bad to feel what someone feels. I start the book with feeling empathy for this mom lugging her toddler and all of her stuff through the airport.
- [07:04]
A
Because that you.
- [07:05]
B
Well, that's what I was going to say. It's not me, but I had been there. Yes. And before I had been there, you know, I might not have noticed her. Or you hear the crying baby on the airplane. And because, you know, I was a scene, single woman, I'm thinking, gosh, that's such a distraction to me. That's annoying to me. But after I have kids and now I understand, gosh, no one wants that baby to stop crying more than that Mom. My instinct is, now, how can I help? Not, gosh, how is that bothering me? And so empathy is not always bad feeling how someone feels, putting yourself in someone's position can be very good. The question is, what does it lead you to? Does it lead you to compassion, to serving them, to helping? Or does it lead you to affirm their sinful choice? Does it lead you to lie? Does it lead you to support policies that are ultimately destructive? And I think what Abigail Schreier would say, because I kind of went back and forth with her on that, like, isn't it good? Sometimes she would say that, no, you really should be teaching people, and we all should be embodying ourselves. Not empathy, but virtue. Because, see, I could have had compassion for that struggling mom before I had kids. It wasn't a requirement that I had to go through motherhood myself to have compassion for her and help her. Because you can be a selfless, compassionate person without having gone through something that another person has gone through. And so it's actually more important to teach ourselves and our kids the virtue of selflessness and compassion, but also wisdom, impartiality, all of those things that go into being an objective, critically thinking, responsible person, more than it's important to teach them empathy. Because our feelings can really blind us to what's good, right, and true.
- [08:54]
A
Why is it the American church seems to have become like the biggest sitting duck for progressive leftists on this? Like, why are they setting their sights on, you know what, it's the church who. Who's really going to listen and. And be susceptible to this kind of manipulation?
- [09:09]
B
Yeah, that's a great question. Because Christians are led by love. And that's what makes Jesus different, is that he has claimed dominion. He has created this kingdom, this people, these evangelistic followers, not through force, not through manipulation, but through love. Like when we look at the devastation of the hurricanes that have ripped through a huge part of the United States, We've seen a dereliction of duty by the government. And in that vacuum, we've seen a fearless church. We've seen a church step up, have compassion, do the right thing, meet the needs of the most vulnerable. What the church has been doing really well for the past 2000 years. Christians are rightly compelled to love. We are supposed to create a refuge for the most vulnerable. We are supposed to meet these material needs. We are supposed to see the undignified, the ones on the margins of society, those that society sees as unclean or less than or subhuman. We're supposed to take care of those people. But there is a difference between love and empathy. Empathy feels how someone feels. That can only get you so far. It can lead you to lies. It can maybe lead you towards virtue, but it is not love in itself, because love, according to the God who is love, is inextricably intertwined with the truth. Love never rejoices with evil, but rejoices with the truth. That's 1 Corinthians 13:6. Empathy, because it's about emotions, doesn't really care about what's true. It only cares about what someone feels. And I know we live in this culture that says all feelings are valid, but that's not true. Valid means rooted in truth. And all feelings may exist, but they're not all true. They're not all grounded in truth. And so that is the big problem with empathy and especially toxic empathy that leads us to support the wrong causes. But love has to be rooted in truth for it to actually be biblical. And I think that's where the confusion lies within the church. The difference between true and the truth in love approach and this superficial empathy.
- [11:20]
A
You talked about how women especially are vulnerable to this type of toxic empathy. But was there anything in particular that you found out about men? Like, is there any type of toxic empathy that gets men really easily?
- [11:32]
B
I think anyone can be persuaded by toxic empathy, certainly. And in this age of convincing men that masculinity is toxic, that strength is toxic, that male leadership is toxic, trying to feminize men, like, we see this, I think, really perfectly in Tim Walls. He's like the Phil Dunphy of politics. He's just this bumbling knucklehead. He's just so silly. He tells lies about where he's traveled, but it's fine because he's just sweet Tim Walls. Like, he is the picture of the sitcom dad that typifies the only masculinity that is acceptable nowadays. And so, because a lot of men, I think, have been convinced that this feminized version of masculinity is the only one that's okay, I'm sure that there are men who have imbibed some of the doctrines of feminism and have said, well, you know, I've never been a woman. I can't control a woman's body because I don't know what it's like to be pregnant, that I have to support a woman's right to choose, quote unquote, in order to be really loving or empathetic. And of course, it affects men because you're talking about churches being a hotbed of toxic empathy. Most churches are led by men.
- [12:46]
A
So you know what I've seen on dating apps? Guys. In order to appear friendlier to women, they are deliberately choosing moderate as their political view.
- [12:57]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [12:57]
A
So instead of conservative, I haven't seen.
- [12:59]
B
That personally on dating apps.
- [13:00]
A
You've heard about it?
- [13:01]
B
I have heard about that from single friends.
- [13:03]
A
So they're doing that, you know, I think, to, like, kind of appeal. And then when a girl's like, okay, well, I'm super conservative, then he's like, okay, cool. Yeah, me too.
- [13:10]
B
I don't know if that's toxic empathy as much as it's just the. What do the kids say, Riz? Maybe they're just trying to rizz it up. Yeah. By lying about who they are. I mean, it's really crazy. Just the graphs that I've seen of conservative affiliation among men and liberal affiliation among women, I mean, they're going to so far apart. It kind of makes me sad that the men are the ones who feel like they have to kind of compromise because Women have imbibed this toxic empathy so much. Men are like, well, if I'm going to get married, I guess I got to bend a little bit before I put a ring on it.
- [13:51]
A
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- [15:18]
B
I wasn't sure which one you were going to go with.
- [15:21]
A
I think it's Love is Love.
- [15:22]
B
So we start with in that chapter, the story of Glennon Doyle. And most people know who Glennon Doyle is. She was this Christian mommy blogger. She had a blog called Mama. And then she wrote a book called Love Warrior. And it was basically about fighting for your faith, fighting for your family, fighting for your marriage. And these were bestsellers. She became extremely popular because she taught women how to persevere through really hard times in marriage and parenting. And she was beloved because of her strength. And then it was announced right before her last bestseller was about to be released. Or maybe it was right after that, actually, she was divorcing her husband and she was now with a woman named Abby Wambach, who was A US Women's soccer player. And while there was some pushback and some shock from her audience, obviously most of it when they ended up getting married was celebration, because she is such a wordsmith. And of course, how she has communicated this is liberation and authenticity. She finally feels herself. She finally feels happy. She finally feels like she's discovered everything she's been longing for and how she paints the picture of her family as one of happiness and wholeness. And it's hard to argue with that. Like, I'll just be real. It is hard to argue with that because you look at that and you think, well, how does that affect me? If they're happy, if they're free, if they're liberated, if they've figured it out for their family, then why would I be mad about that? Now, from a secular perspective, I would say the argument is a little bit. I would. Not tougher to make, but a little bit more complex to make, because you have to look at societal makeup. What is the building block of society? Why the natural marriage between a man and a woman is so important? You've had Katie Faust on just statistically, that is the safest place for a child to be. What a mom and a dad bring to a marriage and bring to parenting, bring to a family is so necessary for the healthy formation of a child. And then when you look at the massive, widespread societal implications of raising purposely fatherless and motherless children, it's huge.
- [17:42]
A
What do you see when you purposely raise a child without a father or mother?
- [17:46]
B
We have a lot more data on fatherlessness just because historically that's been more common. It is so unnatural for a mother to leave their children. Yes, it happens, but it's the exception God just created that biological tie that makes it a lot more difficult for a mother to do that, both physically, physically, and emotionally. But for fatherlessness, of course, we see an increase in delinquency. We see an increase in sexual promiscuity as a teenager, an increase in the likelihood of teen pregnancy, depression, anxiety, eating disorders. You have a much higher likelihood of poverty as an adult. And then with motherlessness, as I said, we have so little data on that because that's a historical aberration. Moms just so rarely leave their kids.
- [18:33]
A
Did Glennon have kids with her husband?
- [18:35]
B
Yes, she did. Three kids. Yes. And she claims, of course, that they're happy. And I don't have any argument against that personal anecdote. But when I'm speaking in principle, when I'm thinking about who are the primary victims, not only of Redefining marriage, which is huge when you think about how marriage has been defined naturally for millennia in all cultures. That is a groundbreaking social experiment that children have absolutely no say in. And we are purposely creating motherless and fatherless children, raising motherless and fatherless children, gaslighting them into believing that their feelings of mother loss and father loss don't matter. All in the name of love. Is love on the name of these stupid, silly, superficial mantras. And really, the government has no right and does not have the responsibility to redefine marriage. And I think that we've seen that that slippery slope that Christians warned us about a long time ago has been a lot more slippery than we thought. Since Obergefell was just nine years ago, we've gone from love is love to let's subsidize egg selling and womb renting and drag queens reading stories in libraries really fast.
- [19:56]
A
Do you think that Glennon Doyle's books, her podcast, would be dangerous territory for Christian women?
- [20:02]
B
Oh, 100%. And it's not just for that. It's not just for her relationship and what she claims is her sexual orientation. It's because she worships the God of self. And her book is all about the untamed book, which has sold, I think over a million copies, which is absolutely insane. I mean, she's a very talented person. She's a charming person. I completely understand why she has attracted the adulation of so many people. But she worships the God of self. She is about whatever feels good and whatever she wants to do. I would say, like she is the cult leader of the cult of self affirmation and self fulfillment and self empowerment. There is nothing good that you can get out of Glennon Doyle or Brene Brown.
- [20:52]
A
Wait, we have a problem with Brene Brown? Yes, tell me about her. Because very popular with women, especially Christian women, which I don't even think she's a Christian.
- [21:01]
B
No, she's not. She's very openly, you know, pro abortion. But she definitely uses what I would call this toxic empathy to tell women this message. And this is something I addressed mostly in my first book. But women are told, Christian women, non Christian women, that our biggest problem, problem in life is that we have low self esteem. And as soon as we fix that with our own self love, as soon as we realize we're enough, we're perfect the way we are, we're beautiful. There's no flaw in any flaw that we think that we have is really society's fault or the patriarchy's fault or capitalism's fault, or our mother in law's fault or boyfriend's fault or whatever. And as soon as we get rid of all of that toxicity and we find this goddess deep down in herself and unleash her and liberate her, then we'll finally be happy. I'm not saying those are the exact words that Brene Brown has said, but those are the ideas that we really see among these, like, pseudo psychological influencers that have really risen to prominence through Instagram and through their books. Of course, I'm not trying to downplay their actual success, but it is all about the self. It's about that self love, self empowerment, self fulfillment. But if the self is the problem, it can also be the solution.
- [22:11]
A
Do you think that we are underestimating how much a role the LGBTQ topic is playing in the deconstructing of Christian women?
- [22:19]
B
I think it's playing a huge role. In fact, almost every story I've heard of someone deconstructing, whether they're still deconstructing or they've walked away or whether they've reconstructed after deconstructing, has to do with the LGBTQ stuff. Almost always does. It almost always does. Or politics in general. Because for progressives and those who identify as progressive Christians, their politics drives their theology, not the other way around.
- [22:43]
A
So it's like I feel like my faith is preventing me from caring for that kid that feels like they're trapped in the wrong body. I feel like I don't like the church telling me that, you know, the two gay neighbors that I have that I love and adore can't, you know, shouldn't be married. It's that type of struggle.
- [22:55]
B
I would say it's that type of struggle. Now, they would probably use a little more spiritual language than that. I remember I had a professor in college who said, you know, who said he was a Christian, and he said, well, you know, everyone will ultimately go to heaven. And I didn't realize I was being divisive. But, you know, I asked him about John 14:6. I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. And he said, well, God is bigger than that. And I think that is the phrase that I hear a lot from those who say they're progressive. Well, my God is bigger than basically, sin versus righteousness, hell versus heaven, good versus evil, light versus darkness. He's bigger than that. Which is a very inclusive, empathetic sounding way to say, I don't want to deal with sin. I just want to say one More thing on the marriage thing, because most of your audience probably is Christian. Maybe a lot of them listen to me, but maybe some of them don't. And I just want to make that one crystal clear for the Christian. I know that we can get into some nitty gritty when it comes to the secular and societal reasons why natural marriage is so important as the bedrock of society. And you should listen to Alex's episode with Katie Fist and she gets into that really specifically. But for the Christian, this is really a non negotiable. And this is really why when someone walks away from the faith, it almost always starts with this redefining of gender and sexuality. Because marriage between man and a woman, it, this is an alliteration, is rooted in creation. It's reiterated throughout scripture, it's repeated by Jesus, it is representative of Christ and the church, and it is therefore reflective of the Gospel. It is extremely central to the biblical narrative. There is spiritual and eternal significance to the definition of gender, which we see in the first chapter of the Bible and the last chapter of the Bible. We see it in Ephesians 5, we see it in Matthew 19:4, 5, we see it in Romans 1, we see it in Exodus 20:12. It is everywhere throughout Scripture. There is such a deep, deep, physical, profound, spiritual, eternal significance to this. There is a reason why when people start to reject Genesis 1:27, which is that God made us male and female, that they eventually reject John 14:6. Because you cannot love Jesus and hate Christ and his church, because Christ is the bridegroom and the church is the bride. And that is what progressive Christianity tries to do. And that's why it never works.
- [25:21]
A
Why is it crucial when you're discussing sexuality and gender to understand who God intended marriage to be for?
- [25:29]
B
Because if we go all the way back to the first verse of the first chapter of the first book of the Bible, that God created the heavens and the earth may be the most controversial verse in the Bible because of all of its implications. Because if God is the authority over all things, or if he's the creator over all things, rather than he is the authority over them, if he created us, he gets to say what we are, who we are. And thankfully he answers so many of our so called culture war questions in that one verse, Genesis 1:27, he made us in his image. That means we matter. From the point that we're humans conception onward, it means that we are made male and female, because that's what that verse says. And then he brings us together in a marriage. So he's defined gender, marriage, the value of life, all in one verse. And then he tells us to be fruitful and multiply. That is the nature of marriage. And it's not a coincidence that in, in Ephesians 5, Paul says that wives are to submit to our husbands. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Because we are a reflection of the bride of Christ as women as wives, and they're the reflection of Christ the Savior, the bridegroom. Two men can't do that. Two women can't do that.
- [26:44]
A
But what would you say to somebody who says, okay, Ally, but there are children growing up with moms and dads who are in an incredibly toxic environment. And there are kids growing up with, you know, two, two gay parents that love them. And it's great.
- [26:56]
B
I would say, obviously the ideal situation is that a child is with a mom and a dad that love them very much. They're biological mom and dad that love them very much. That is the ideal. We live in a fallen world, so we don't always get the ideal. Adoption redeems a broken situation, but it is still not the ideal. The ideal is for that married, biological mom and dad. And Brad Wilcox, a professor at the University of Virginia, has debunked through data what's called the family diversity diversity theory, which we hear a lot, which is that kids just need love. It doesn't matter if it's two men, two women, one man, a polycule situation, as long as they're loved and their material needs are met, they're fine. That's just not true. Kids want to know. People want to know whose they are, where they come from. And knowing the DNA of both parents, the family history of both parents really matters to us us, because the law of God is written on our hearts. We want to know whose we are and why we're here. And parents give us a beautiful window into that. So of course I don't want any child to be mistreated, but just because I don't want children to be mistreated, that doesn't mean that I am okay with raising purposely motherless or fatherless kids.
- [28:16]
A
You wrote in the book that in 2018, you speaking out in opposition to Lauren Daigle celebrating same sex marriage really taught you to be fearless when offering clarity on controversial subjects. Dave Rubin, a few years later, a friend of all of ours decided to have two children with his husband via surrogacy. Was that another moment where toxic empathy was a tempting route for you?
- [28:40]
B
Well, I will say for Lauren Daigle, she did not celebrate same sex marriage. She was asked about what the Bible says about homosexuality, and she said she didn't know because a lot of people that she loves are gay. And so she was wrong on that. I don't know if she has corrected herself since then. I think that she's really talented and brings a lot to the table there. But that was my first time speaking out about this. And that's, I think, when I came up with that alliteration that I already explained, because the Bible really does make this so clear. And I was initially scared to talk about it with Lauren. Yes, I was. I was nervous, but I. It. I think it was like, also around June, and I was getting a lot of messages from people being like, can you please, please talk about this? Or my church doesn't talk about this, or what do you think about the United Church? Or my United Methodist Church split over LGBTQ issues? And so I was like, okay, I feel like I just need to lay this out there. But I was nervous. I had been asked to speak on a panel about the definition of marriage just, like, a few weeks earlier, and I was thanking God that there was a scheduling conflict because I was so scared to just be outright about it, which is almost silly to think about now. And that's just a lesson for people. Like, once you say the thing this, the thing that is true, it gets easier and easier every time. But, yeah, Dave Rubin. I was nervous before that interview where I, you know, told him what I thought as a Christian, and he's a great interviewer. He was very respectful. Since I've been more outspoken against surrogacy, though, yeah, there's some added tension there.
- [30:19]
A
Has he said something to you like, hey, I don't appreciate this, or just like, he just doesn't talk to you, period?
- [30:25]
B
Well, we don't. We don't talk. But I won't. I won't disclose, you know, private communication. I probably wouldn't like it if someone did that to me. I don't know whether he would pay me that respect. But I won't disclose the private communication. But I will say we don't have the same. Yeah, yeah, Friendly, friendly relationship that we did. But I still think that, you know, he's such a talented person. He is, I would say, one of the very best interviewers that I have ever been interviewed by, especially as someone who I'm, you know, even before he had kids, I'm telling him something very personal that I disagree with. And he handled that, you know, in a very, very classy and Graceful way. And so I'll. I'll say that about Dave and I wish him the best.
- [31:11]
A
One thing that I did not know about you, that you'd written in the book, and I was actually very surprised by, is you admit that there was a time where you were like, okay, I'm personally against gay marriage, but I feel like it should be legal. And then you changed your mind. So my question is, what toxic empathy pitfalls have you fallen into at some point as a Christian and then later changed your mind on.
- [31:36]
B
Yeah, there's been a lot. I would say there's one in every chapter in abortion. I used to be for the exceptions. I thought that that was a completely acceptable pro life position to be against abortion, except, of course, in cases of rape and incest and serious female fetal anomalies and, you know, the life of the mother. I really hadn't thought through those things. I just thought that sounded very obvious and compassionate and balanced. And I remember I said that this is probably 2000, I don't know, 16, 17. I posted something along those lines on Facebook. And I don't remember who it was. It wasn't a public figure. I think it was just a random commenter said, you know, what's the difference in a baby that's conceived in rape and a baby that's not conceived in rape? And that showed me that I really wasn't looking at abortion through the perspective of the victim of abortion, which is the baby. I really was still thinking, yeah, killing babies is wrong most of the time, but in some cases it's not. Which completely undermines the whole pro life premise is, which is that babies in the womb from the point of conception matter, that they are entitled to rights, that they have dignity. Why would I execute the death penalty on a baby because of how he was conceived? It didn't make any sense. So I've since changed my position and also just educated myself through talking to so many pro life doctors that there's really no reason to kill a baby to save the mother. If the mother needs, for example, chemotherapy, she's 16 weeks pregnant, she needs it immediately or she's going to die. The humane thing to do is to deliver that baby whole, even knowing that that baby is going to tragically die, to do everything that you can to comfort that baby and to save the mother. There's no reason to poison or starve or dismember a baby to save the mom. So I really don't believe in any exception.
- [33:41]
A
I was like flipping through the book reading, thinking, like, okay, there's going to be a big fertility chapter here besides lgbtq. I think this idea telling women you have a right to be a parent is another toxic empathy lie.
- [33:57]
B
Yeah.
- [33:58]
A
Did you consider putting anything about surrogacy and IVF in the book?
- [34:01]
B
It is in there. It's in the. It's in the Love is Love chapter. But we don't do a separate chapter on fertility treatments. It's in there just because when Alex is going to write a book one day, I'm trying to convince her to write a book. So when you write a book, you're going to realize, like, you want to put in every argument you've ever made into every book that you write. And, you know, you have a limit. It. That is hard for me. I could have, like, made this book three times as long because I could have done a chapter on every subject I've ever talked about. So I had to find a way to, like, sneak it in there. And so I did it in the Love is Love chapter. And we do a little bit also just talk about fertility treatments in general, even though we're talking about it in the context of motherless and fatherless kids. But, yes, this idea that your desire to be a mom, because that's a good desire, and it is that that justifies any means necessary to fulfill that desire, that's wrong.
- [34:58]
A
That's toxic empathy.
- [34:59]
B
It's toxic empathy. And in a way, I know that this sounds so harsh, and I don't want to sound harsh, because, gosh, the longing for a child is like none other. And I have true compassion and understanding for that. But it is putting yourself first. It is selfish, because you are asking embryos, these helpless children, these lives that you've created, to potentially sacrifice themselves for your desire to have a child. And I know a lot of people will say, well, not every Christian destroys embryos through the IVF process. And that's true. But you don't know that before you go in every bargain, every risk, or every couple that enters into IVF is taking a bargain. They're taking the risk that they will create too many embryos and they won't be able to transfer all of those embryos. Now, most embryos are genetically tested. They're discarded if they're not seen as healthy. But even if you are one of the rare couples that opts out of that, that you probably won't be able to transfer all of your embryos because you'll be encouraged to make at least five to six. Most people can't carry five to Six children. Some can, many can't. Maybe you're told after your two children that you can't have any more kids. Maybe you have to have a hysterectomy. What do you do with those four other insold image bearers of God? I've talked to women in this situation. Do they pay the freezer fee indefinitely? Do they discard their babies? Do they adopt their babies out to people they don't even know?
- [36:32]
A
Thoughts on committing to not destroying your embryo but adopting them out to another family to raise?
- [36:38]
B
I think that's the best case scenario. I would try as much as you can to know that couple and to know that they're Christian. I could not bear the thought of just sending my embryos my children. They already have their genetic coding, their eye color, everything to an adoption agency and knowing that an atheist or two men could adopt and raise this child with values that are diametrically opposed to mine. Like that is my DNA walking out there and that's they're my responsibility. God gave them to me to steward and I can't imagine being put in that situation. I think best case scenario is to find a Christian mom and dad that you know and to see if they will adopt your embryos.
- [37:32]
A
What you put on your body is just as important as what you put in it. And your underarms and mouth are very absorbent areas. Your toothpaste, floss and deodorant can all positively or negatively impact your endocrine system and exposure to forever chemicals. This is why I use Zebra for those products. Zebra is named aptly because the owner Jen believes ingredients should just be black and white. After a horrible terrifying experience with chronically ill children due to products in their environment, she needed non toxic products. But what she discovered was nothing was non toxic enough. And so that is why she created Zebra. And I have not found a toothpaste yet that is cleaner than this one. There's no fluoride, there's no hydroxyapatite. Instead she uses xylitol and the eucalyptus deodorant is my absolute favorite. No artificial fragrance ever, no baking soda because that can irritate people. So there's an option for you as well. Go to yay zebra.com use code Alex for 10% off any order. That's yay zebra.com and code Alex for 10% off non toxic floss, toothpaste and deodorant. Gorgeous packaging too, which is just such a plus. Why was the border included in this book? I just didn't understand it Ali. Because I thought that Mary and Joseph were immigrants. They were refugees looking for a place to live. Why? Why is this a topic of conversation of how progressives exploit the church?
- [38:51]
B
Yeah, I was probably most passionate writing this chapter, which was surprising to me.
- [38:56]
A
That's surprising to me.
- [38:57]
B
Yeah, it was surprising to me too because talk about abortion and gender and sexuality so much and those chapters were so easy to write. I was kind of nervous about the immigration and social justice chapters. I don't consider myself an expert on immigration policy and so I was nervous as I started typing it out. But I followed the same formula that I do in every chapter. I start with a heart rending story that is meant to get you to take the progressive side. So we started with a story of a woman named Maribel Diaz. She came here illegally from Mexico with her family. Family with her children. She moved to Fairfield, Ohio. They lived there for years. Then when Donald Trump became president, she was deported. She was separated from her children. It's a horrible story and to be honest, like it is gut wrenching for me as a mom. I can't imagine being separated from my kids.
- [39:48]
A
And it's a true story.
- [39:49]
B
It's a true story. The original piece was published by the Washington Post. And so as I was writing that, I was like, maybe I'm convinced by this. This does seem wrong, this does seem uncharted, just. And I felt what she feels. It's really easy to do. That's what the media does with all of these subjects. But then we contrasted her story to the stories on the other side of this issue. And this is when I really felt just so impassioned and emboldened about this subject. I started writing in detail Kate Steinle story. Kate steinle was the 32 year old woman. She was walking down a pier on an afternoon with her dad outside of San Francisco and she was shot in the back by an illegal immigrant who had been deported five times. He had been put in prison for violent crimes. But because of sanctuary city policies in San Francisco that were championed by Kamala Harris at the time, he wasn't deported again. He was released. They didn't cooperate with ICE because that's the sanctuary city policies that are in place. And so he shot her in the back and her dad held her as he waited for the ambulance. And she her help me, daddy. And then she died there in his arms. A 32 year old lost her life because of someone who shouldn't have been here in the first place. So we have two sides of this issue, two people that evoke Our empathy. But the question is, what is actually true? And this is a tricky one for a lot of people, because we don't see a clear answer in the Bible for what our immigration policy should be. We don't have a policy prescription in Scripture the way that it's so clear about gender, it's so clear about sexuality, it's so clear about abortion. But I believe that if you look at the principles in scripture, if you look at the character of God, it is very obvious that God is a God of order. We know he gave us countries, he gave us borders. We even have languages and cultures that lead to our flourishing because they lead to human order. Even if you look at the very beginning that God placed us in a garden, not in a jungle, everywhere we see walls depicted metaphorically or literally. Throughout Scripture, they are signifiers of order and protection parameters. Even heaven has gates and walls. And so it is obvious to me that in order for a country to protect its people, which is the role of the government, we have to have sovereignty, which means we have to have enforced borders, which means we cannot tolerate illegal immigration. We can talk about regulating legal immigration, refugees, asylum seekers, and the process for that. I think we can have compassionate policy there. But in order to truly love the people in this country, we can't have a tolerance of illegal immigration. People often point to a couple things in the Bible to justify this basically open borders policy. They won't typically call it open borders, but when you ask them, okay, can we use buoys? No. Can we use barbed wire? No. Can we use guns? No. Can we build a wall? No. I'm like, okay, well, then how are we enforcing this? Can we deport people? No. And so it basically is an open borders policy. And they'll say, well, Jesus was a refugee. He wasn't. He was moving within the empire. He was moving basically within what would be considered now like the same country from state to state. He was seeking refuge in another part of the. Of the country, of the area, but he was not entering illegally. And then also the same people who say, oh, well, you know, Exodus tells us to love the Sojourner, are the same people who say that we can't reference the Bible at all in informing our politics, or else we're Christian nationalists, but if we are to follow the Old Testament guidelines for immigration, we would have a much stricter immigration policy in the United States. Usually they kind of extrapolate that love the foreigner, but they don't look at the fact that any foreigner in Israel had to assimilate, had to follow all of their laws. And so that's the big difference between immigration and aliens and sojourners then and the illegal immigration debate today.
- [44:02]
A
But wouldn't, wouldn't a leftist say that's a false equivalence? Because this innocent mom, daddy, as this innocent mom, you know, she was just raising her kids, she wasn't a violent criminal. That's fine, I, I, I agree. Get rid of the violent criminals. But those people, like, let's not deport them.
- [44:18]
B
It's not saying that they're the same. It's saying that there are people on both sides of this issue that we have empathy for. And that's the point in every chapter. That's what I'm trying to show. For example, in the abortion chapter, I tell the story of a mom who found out that her daughter had this fatal diagnosis at 20 weeks pregnant. She didn't want to have the baby and then she did. And so it makes you feel like, wow, those pro life laws are really unjust because of what she had to go through. But then we look at it from the baby's perspective and at the end of the day on all of these issues, there are people on both sides of the issue that demand our empathy. That's the point that I'm making. But the question isn't who demands more of our empathy? Because if we're led by empathy, which is what we were told in 2020, be led by empathy, we're going to running around like chickens with our heads cut off. There are so many people that can make us feel bad for them. So many people that have real stories. Even a child who insists, I was born in the wrong body, I would just be happy if I were a boy. Please just affirm me, you could get taken in by that. But when we look at the other side of the issue and we ask ourselves who is affected on the other side of this moral calculation, we realize there are a lot of people that demand our feelings. So instead of asking the question how do we feel? Or how does this person make us feel? We have to ask the question, but what is right and what is true in principle, which is more empathetic?
- [45:47]
A
Saying a 13 year old needs to carry a baby to term after being raped or allowing her to abort that baby.
- [45:54]
B
It lacks empathy for the baby if you insist that the baby should get the death penalty for a crime that he or she didn't commit. But more than that, because we're not driven by empathy, we're driven by what's right. It is always wrong. To kill an innocent person, no matter the circumstances surrounding their conception. I actually believe in the death penalty, but not for babies inside the womb. I believe in the death penalty for rapists. I believe in the death penalty for murders. So that man that raped that 13 year old girl should get the death penalty. But I am not going to take her through the trauma of an abortion knowing that it is not going to heal, heal her wounds from sexual assault. And I'm not going to punish the baby for the crime of the man. Now you've punished both the child and the mother for a crime that neither of them committed. The left likes to make us think that abortion is this healing balm for women. It's not.
- [46:49]
A
Well, and I think part of the problem is just misinformation and misunderstanding and this idea that a pregnancy is going to be more traumatic than an abortion. And so that's where they get caught up. Is that. Well, to, to say that this, this child is going to be pregnant for nine months, like that's the worst thing that you could do to her. An abortion would be so much easier. Talk about physical risk. That is way more physical risk to have her endure an abortion than to just go through with having the baby.
- [47:18]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Especially when you're talking about later term, which absolutely does happen. We hear from the left, oh, Donald Trump and J.D. vance are making that up. But even the Atlantic and the New Yorker have profiled this guy named Warren Hearn. He's an abortionist out of Colorado who is very open about aborting babies to 35 weeks. And he told the Atlantic that the vast majority of women who walk in don't have any kind of medical diagnosis. They just want an abortion. And he says that it's safer than having a child, which is not true because an abortion at that time takes several, several days. And I could walk through the entire process of what that abortion is, is, but that is much more dangerous to your body and always dangerous to the baby. By the way, the baby is being forced into cardiac arrest. People forget that abortion is always dangerous to the baby, but it's dangerous to the mom too. And so this lie via toxic empathy that abortion is healthy for the mom is really destructive.
- [48:16]
A
Is it toxic empathy for conservatives to tell other conservative Christians that we have to force forfeit some ground on abortion or will never win an election again? Think about the others, think about the rest of us. We want to win elections. You have to be willing to compromise on abortion.
- [48:32]
B
It might be toxic empathy like I think Melania and Donald Trump are probably duped a little bit by toxic empathy into thinking that all of these exceptions have to be on the table. Melania Trump actually seems a little more extreme on this. She basically said that terminating a pregnancy is part of, like, a woman's individual liberty, which is crazy. I'm really glad that she's not the one who will be making policy. I don't know if it's so much toxic empathy conservative saying, hey, you got to compromise on abortion as much as it is just pragmatism. And honestly, most people on the right and left don't really see abortion as a life or death issue because we can't hear their cries, because we can't feel their pain, because they don't vote, they don't have political power. Honestly, most people who don't see them as image bearers of God, they just don't care.
- [49:20]
A
Relatable is the number one podcast for Christian conservative women. You are selling out conferences. You've now written two books. You have three kids.
- [49:28]
B
Yes.
- [49:29]
A
Something I've always wanted to ask you. What is your trick to being able to do all of that outside the home, plus prioritizing your family and your children and making sure that they come first?
- [49:41]
B
Yes. So it might not look like it to most people, because I think most people. People see. Okay, four episodes a week. That's so much.
- [49:50]
A
Geez, you're doing four?
- [49:51]
B
Yeah, I do four episodes a week.
- [49:53]
A
Oh, my God.
- [49:53]
B
Such a big fan of Relatable. It's been four episodes a week for three minutes.
- [50:00]
A
I thought it was three this whole time.
- [50:02]
B
Four episodes a week. Now, thankfully, I have a great team that helps with all the research and I don't do any of the post production, but I think a lot of people see that and say, oh my gosh, you are working so much. But if people have been following me for a long time, they would also know that I used to travel probably five times more than I do now. I was taking every Fox News hit, every interview, because that's what you can do before you have kids. Waking up for Fox and Friends first at like 2:30am Something.
- [50:30]
A
We all had to freaking do that. And it is the worst.
- [50:33]
B
Yep. And then as soon as I had started having kids, I just felt this freedom to start saying no, not no to everything. Because obviously I still speak. I still have the podcast.
- [50:44]
A
Well, and I'll just say in Ali's defense, I mean, her coming here today, she came out same day. Like, you just got here a couple hours ago. You're filming and you're immediately leaving. You're not even spending the night away.
- [50:53]
B
Yeah, and that's. And that's what I always do. And I'm used to that. But even this, I would say, is more than I would typically do because I've got a book coming out. And so there are seasons. There are seasons when I travel more. My assistant can tell you that most of the time I have at least one child with me this past weekend and we had to go to California for work stuff. And we all went together as a family. We do that a lot. My husband and I work together full time. He planned the entire conference. All I did was give my opinions on it. The conference with 4,000 women would not have happened without him. And so he is a big part of that.
- [51:32]
A
You have your husband, like, managing you. Candace has her husband managing her and dealing with all her stuff for her. Do you think that that is really the secret sauce that people don't realize?
- [51:43]
B
That is the secret sauce and that has made a really big difference in our life and just rowing the same direction in the same boat. I'm not saying that everyone has to do it because I know other people in this sphere, they make it work in other ways. And their husbands are lawyers and full time whatever. But man, it makes it so much easier if you're rowing in the same direction. Also, I go into the studio three times a week. I would say that's max, 12 hours a week. And so it's not that I'm never doing other things, but if I'm working, like if I'm writing a book, which I'm not right now, thank the Lord, because that takes a lot of work. But if I'm doing something like that, I also don't write articles anymore. I used to write articles twice a month for World magazine. I don't do that anymore. There's a lot that I've let go of. But if I'm in a season of doing something like that, it happens during nap time. It happens in the morning, it happens at night. Night. My parents live in our neighborhood and so I'm home a ton now. I will say that doesn't mean my time management is perfect. I'm not nearly as organized as I should be. I. I would say the, the thing that I wish I could change, but I've always been this way, is that I'm like what I would call messy, busy a lot. Rather than saying, I so envy these people that are like, I wake up every morning and for two hours I write 1500 words. And that's my writing for the day and then I'm done. And then I don't do anything until 7:30 when the kids are. Whatever it is. I'm just like here and there trying to get things done as the day goes on, which I don't recommend. That is like my vice. I'm not an organized person.
- [53:19]
A
So on a working day for you, when you are going to the studio because you're filming, what does it look like? Like day in the life. Like, what time do you wake up? What are you doing?
- [53:27]
B
Usually wake up about 6:30, which I need to wake up earlier than that, but it's usually about 6:30. And I feed our youngest because she's usually the one who's waking me up. And so.
- [53:39]
A
And it's all three girls?
- [53:40]
B
Yes, all three girls. And our youngest is a year old, so she's still nursing. So I nurse her in the morning and then my oldest wakes up and so I'm doing breakfast, I'm making lunches, I'm getting people dressed. I also. I also do make my bed. I will say I do make my bed almost every morning. And then I get everyone ready for the day. And then my makeup artist comes at 8:45.
- [54:04]
A
Do you have her come to your house?
- [54:05]
B
She does, and that makes a huge difference. And she is like such a blessing in my life. So she does my hair and makeup and then I go into the studio. And I go into the studio for. It just depends. I would say, like, usually three hours.
- [54:21]
A
Do you double. Do you do like two.
- [54:23]
B
One of the days? I typically double tape. Okay. Yeah, yeah, it's typically one of the days. But then like on a day like today where I'm traveling, I had to do two yesterday because I'm not there to film today. But it's really like, it's really flexible. And my older two go to school and sometimes I bring the youngest with me to the studio and we just make it work.
- [54:48]
A
That's interesting that they go to school. I was wondering what your views on education are as a Christian family. You know, are you in this camp of like, all Christian conservatives need to homeschool or are you like. No, there's more nuance to that. Like, what do you think?
- [55:00]
B
I definitely don't think they all need to homeschool. I was not homeschooled. I went to a Christian school, kindergarten through 12th grade. But I absolutely think that every Christian child should have a Christian education if at all possible. And I think the exceptions to that, while they exist, they're very rare. So I don't know exactly what we're going to do. My oldest will go to kindergarten, and we're still figuring that out. But. But it's. There's no compromise on that for us. Both my husband and I had a Christian education, and I credit my Christian education for so much. One model, which I don't even know if we'll land here, but I really like the classical Christian model because I love the emphasis on memorization.
- [55:46]
A
Are you a no iPad ever, mom? Or like iPads when we're traveling?
- [55:50]
B
I will allow certain tablet games when we are on the plane.
- [55:55]
A
So then it's like a special treat.
- [55:56]
B
They're like, yes. And they never, ever play them at home, ever. So it is a special treat. And it really does, like, satiate them for the whole plane ride, which is great. But I do respect the moms that don't do any screens on plane rides. Good for you.
- [56:12]
A
What is your response to other Christian women who are critical about moms working outside the home, period, while they have kids that are little?
- [56:21]
B
She's allowed to have that opinion. I'm sure there are people, maybe there are people who listen to my podcast who believe that, although maybe they don't, because just in principle, they don't think that my podcast should exist. And I would say that women have always contributed to the home economy in some way, whether it's working at their shop that their husband runs or whether it's being an entrepreneur or industrious in another way. And I would say, because my husband and I work on this together and we. We really see it as a family mission, we make it work. I don't think that every job is conducive to motherhood, though. I think it would be really hard to have a strict 8 to 5 job where I am checking in, checking out. My boss is only giving me a certain number of hours off. A flexible job, though, where you're basically your own boss, I think is very doable. Doable.
- [57:18]
A
What is the biggest criticism that you get from your own audience? That you wish they would employ more empathy towards you and not toxic empathy.
- [57:27]
B
Oh, I think it's really hard being in the reformed Christian world when it comes to, like, who you associate with. Like, if I ever talk to someone or have someone on or share someone's post because I happen to like something that they said. You know, it's the million. Well, did you know that they said that then? Or did you know that one time they sing to Bethel music? Or like, did you know that, you know, this person was associated with.
- [57:56]
A
They've got oceans on their Apple Music alley. They've got it.
- [57:59]
B
You know that. And I'm not saying that that's always wrong. Sometimes it's good for me. Oh, I didn't know that that person was pushing something that I completely am opposed to. Thank you for telling me that. But other times I'm like, okay, here's an example. Example. The other day I posted about a church that was gathering supplies for Hurricane Helene. And I said, this is a church that's taking donations. Well, I got messages from people being like, this is a prosperity church.
- [58:26]
A
Don't perform this church.
- [58:28]
B
And I'm like, give me the benefit of the doubt.
- [58:31]
A
You're not saying, go there, become a member.
- [58:33]
B
That I am not promoting that. That, that is not something I would promote. That I've been very clear about that. That also I would say that people who love Donald Trump should give those of us who critique Donald Trump but are voting for Donald Trump and have told people to vote for Donald Trump a little more grace and to like cool your britches a little bit on that.
- [58:59]
A
There are some things in life we just got to spend the money on. Okay? One is valet because we are not walking in heels. The other is tampons or pads. Unavoidable expense, right? For women, at least for a good chunk of our lives. And when there's a recurring purchase like that, it's important to me to make sure that my money is being well spent somewhere that aligns with my values and is also healthier for my body and my cycle. So I use Garne 100% organic cotton period products. You do not want to be using tampons and pads saturated with heavy metals, glyphosate fragrance, chlorine, or worse. Garne is making unbelievably adorable period products to make strawberry week something to look forward to and feel good about. Knowing that part of every monthly purchase goes towards helping victims of human trafficking. Garnew is a conservative owned company who isn't putting tampons in boys bathrooms either. Go to Garnew.com and use code Alex for 15% off@garnew.com okay. G A R N U.com code Alex. Buy once or set up a monthly subscription so that you never accidentally run out. That's what I do. Garneau.com code Alex for 15% off. I had like a pea sized drop of my Neemi hydrating cream left in my jar today, so I opened up a sample that I had of a luxury designer brands Moisturizer. I had gotten it a while ago, one of those things sitting in a bin in my cabinet. I show up on set, my face is clearly in a rash, and my makeup artist says something like, you know, what did you use? Your skin never looks like this. I said, not Neemie. That's what. It's been my tried and true moisturizer for four years. I cannot live without it. I never have any problems. The NE hydrating cream has the perfect ingredients to be both hydrating and gently anti aging with this small amount of retinol. It's a magic concoction. And if you're really wanting totally clean skin care, the hydrating cream isn't what I would call clean, but I do love it. But they have a clean line. So if you look on their website, there are certain products that say NE clean. They have a brand new clean line that I help consult on with incredible high powered ingredients. Go to NE skincare.com use code Alex Clark for 10% off. That's NEM skincare.com with code Alex Clark for 10% OFF. What is the name of your book and who should read it?
- [61:08]
B
Okay. It is called Toxic Empathy. How Progressives Exploit Christian Compassion. I say it's primarily for the Christian woman, not because Christian men can't get something out of it, because every chapter does arm you with the tools for every argument on these major controversial subjects. But it's for the Christian woman because we are the target of toxic empathy. If you've paid attention to Kamala Harris's campaign, she has been gunning for the white Christian mom this entire election cycle. And she's using toxic empathy and emotional manipulation to do that. And while our audiences are probably, you know, on our same page, I want them to be equipped to talk to their friends, their sisters, their aunts, their moms who are not with facts and with foolproof logic and biblical arguments. So that's what this book is.
- [61:56]
A
You coming on now is great. Because usually, yeah, I would say, and they still are. Most of my audience familiar with you listens to relatable, your podcast, has read your first book, you know, loves you. But I've gained a lot of new people with my rebrand who are just interested in health and wellness. Don't know if they identify as conservative. Gotten messages about that, gotten messages about like, you know, wait a minute, is this. Some of them don't even know they're. Wait a minute, is this a conservative show? Because after I had Seth Gruber on, they're like, wait a minute. So they're learning and so some of them may not be familiar with you. So you just said relatable is four times a week. I cannot believe I didn't realize that. I thought it was three. What can they expect from your podcast?
- [62:33]
B
Podcast, yes. So relatable. You can watch it on YouTube, you can listen to it wherever you listen to podcasts. It is analyzing culture, news, theology, politics from a Christian conservative perspective. We have a lot of amazing guests on there who share their testimonies, their stories. We have sometimes prominent big name guests, but a lot of times we have people that you've never heard of that just have incredibly compelling stories. And I do my best to navigate the chaos of our culture culture with clarity and with confidence through God's word. And I'm always learning. I'm just a mom, a suburban mom that's trying to figure all of this out and I'm trying to take as many other women along with me.
- [63:13]
A
What's your Instagram, Ali B. Stuckey? If you could offer one remedy to heal us at culture, physically, emotionally or spiritually, what would it be?
- [63:22]
B
Stop having sex before marriage. Oh my gosh. Spicy. That would solve. I mean that would solve, I would say 90, 95% at least of our culture's problems. We wouldn't have an abortion problem. We wouldn't have a fatherlessness problem.
- [63:37]
A
All right, well, I'm glad that this interview Ali, the three mushy middle moderate lib people that were listening to my show, they're out now. We've gotten rid of all those people after this interview. I love that. That's really good. Nobody has said anything close to that so far. Thank you Allie for coming on Culture Apothecary.
- [63:54]
B
Thank you.
- [63:58]
A
My favorite line in Ali's book is empathy without biblical truth isn't love at all, it's hate. What a crucial sentiment for the culture. New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. Anywhere you get your podcasts and of course the real Alex Clark YouTube channel. Please leave a five star review for this episode for Ali and I find me on Instagram at Real Alex Clark. Join the Cute Servatives Facebook group to meet like minded women and fans of the show and shop really gorgeous, high quality show merch@tpsa merch.com Pro tip code Alex Clark will get you 10% off. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.