A (3:19)

Are you finding that the most used excuses from Christians on why they're not evangelizing more is because they don't feel confident in how to do it? Is it because they're embarrassed and don't want to offend all the above, all of it?

B (3:31)

Yeah, we have problems with fear. That's, that's, that's the problem, fear. But there are certain things we can do to take Goliath down to Zacchaeus. And I handle my fears this way. If a firefighter looks at a building, fifth story, sees a mother and two children screaming for help. It's on fire, wooden building. They're going to be dead, burned alive within five minutes. He looks at a 60 foot ladder that he has to climb amidst the smoke, amidst the sirens, amidst the screaming and the heat, and having to reach out 60ft up and take two children. Is he terrified? Absolutely. Would he rather be at home with his wife and kids? Of course. But what does he do? He handles his fears by not thinking of his own problems. But that woman and her two children. And that's how I handle my fears. I get fearful all the time when I kind of preach in a university or get up on a box or just even witness to someone one to one sitting next to them on a plane. I handle my fears by not thinking of myself, but thinking of that person. And that's what the scriptures do. They liken us to firefighters, Book of Jude, others making a difference, having compassion, pulling them from the fire, hating of the garment spotted by the flesh. So the key is just to love people, be concerned about people's eternal salvation.

A (4:42)

Do you feel compelled everywhere you go that you need to be sharing the gospel like you just mentioned on a plane every time you fly, Are you talking to the person next to you?

B (4:51)

Yeah. This is going to sound like a boast, but it's not. I've been on over 2000 flights and never once have I not witnessed to the person sitting next to me. And you say, that's remarkable. No, it's not. That's biblical evangelism.

A (5:01)

Wow.

B (5:02)

How can I not be concerned about this person who's sitting next to me? I relayed in one of my teachings where I was on a plane and a woman sat next to me, and I thought I should witness to her. And I thought, well, I just preached to 500 young people last night. God doesn't expect me to do one to one. So I leaned back and I was reading Pilgrim's Progress, began drinking my orange juice. Cara, the airline. And suddenly I thought, imagine if I was on my way to hell and didn't know it, and this woman couldn't be bothered sharing the way of salvation with me, or she was too scared to talk to me. So as I was sitting there, suddenly on a modern jetliner, the armrest fell off, hit me on the foot, the tray table fell down, hit me on the knee, and I choked on a piece of ice. The scripture despise not. The chastening of the Lord came to mind. So I took Pilgrim's Progress, threw at her foot, and she woke up because she'd gone to sleep. I said, have you read this book? And she had in Sunday school and was able to witness, you gotta make the way. You don't wait, you make the way. Like Jesus met the woman at the well, and he didn't sit on the well for two years building a relationship with that woman, he immediately brought up her sin so he could share with her his forgiveness.

A (6:07)

I started a conversation about this topic on X recently, and I got a lot of pushback from Christians. So I want to ask you, what is the main purpose of the church supposed to be? Is it to bring unbelievers in, or is it to train up the congregation so that they can evangelize the words of D.L.

B (6:26)

Moody? I'd rather set a thousand to work than do the work of a thousand. That's the key. Jesus trained the 12, and we train others. And we've forgotten the ministry of the equipping evangelist. Ephesians 4, I think it is. The evangelist is the equipping of the saints for the work of the ministry. And what I liken it to is I come from New Zealand where we have 4 million people and something like 50 million sheep. Although they're not sure of the exact amount because the guy that counts them keeps falling to sleep. There are a lot of sheep in New Zealand and we have what's called sheep trials. You know what a sheep trial is? It's not like an O.J. simpson trial. It's like. Ever seen the movie Babe?

A (7:01)

Of course. Yeah.

B (7:02)

Okay, Babe. That's where they were getting sheep through a little sheep gate. And I remember I was in a pastor's house once and the pastor was getting a drink, it was non alcoholic, came back in and I said, look at this. Here's a shepherd trying to get sheep through this little sheep gate. If he got him through the sheep gate 5o sheep, he wins a national prize. And he was just standing very still holding a rod. And I said, one wrong move from that shepherd and he's going to scatter the sheep. And I said, that's like the local pastor trying to get his flock involved in evangelism. One wrong move and he's going to scatter the sheep. You make us feel guilty about reaching the lost. We'll go to another church. Greener pastures. The pastor said, where's the evangelist? And suddenly a sheepdog came screaming through, went up to those sheep and just went. And the sheep immediately went through the sheep gate. And I said, there is the equipping evangelist. So when I go to a local church, when I did, I got a local church. I bark at the sheep, I say what I want. I say, if you're not evangelizing, where's your love? Don't you care about unsaved people? They're going to hell. There's a lake of fire. And too concerned about worshiping the Lord and not reaching out to the lost. If you're gonna lift your hands and worship to God, make sure you're prepared to reach out your hands in evangelism for God. And I can bark at them because I don't care what they think of me. Cause I'm leaving the next day. That's the ministry of the equipping evangelist. He should come into the local church and do what the pastor doesn't feel comfortable doing. Because he's got a lot of authority. He can come down heavy on the sheep, but if they'll scatter, he lets the equipping evangelists come in and bark at his sheep and say, you should be Reaching out to the lost, that's genuine church growth. We have musical pews in much of our Christendom rather than genuine church growth where unsaved people get saved and then come to the local church to be fed.

A (8:44)

Where did you get this idea to start evangelizing people on the street?

B (8:47)

I got saved.

A (8:48)

Tell us about that.

B (8:49)

I was a very successful young businessman, had my own business, surf shop. And I used to make leather jackets like this, but in leather to order for people. It was very successful. And one thing that bothered me was that I really had a Solomon experience. I got old prematurely at the age of 21, 22. I'd done everything I wanted to do and got everything I wanted to get. And I thought, what's next? Where do I go from here? I'm married, I've got a house, I've got a kid. And I remember one night I just wept at the thought of the fact that 10 out of 10 die. There was this thing called death that was waiting for me that could snatch me like that in a split second or take my beloved wife from me. And I thought why? And I remember weeping and looking up to the heavens and tears streaming down my cheeks, just saying why? Not realizing I was praying to God. I used to believe in God, prayed at night, Lord's prayer like a sleeping pill. But I didn't realize I was seeking God. When I did that. Six months later, I was on a surfing trip. A young guy had a Bible open. And I read it, the words of Jesus, you've heard it said by them of old, you shall not commit adultery. And I thought, well, if there's a heaven, I'll make it. Never done that. And then I read what came next. But I say to you, whoever looks upon a woman to lust for her has committed adultery already, whether in his heart and was like an arrow hit my chest. I thought I'm guilty like every other red blooded guy. And I thought, if God seen my thought life on judgment day, I'm in big trouble, heading for hell. And that's when I understood the cross. Never understood it until I saw my sin. You'll never appreciate and appropriate a cure unless you first realize you have a disease. And when we realize the disease of sin, then the cure of the cross makes sense. I came to Christ, born again, immediately began sharing the gospel. Gospel tracts. Put billboard outside my home, got a 34 seater bus. Put scripture around it professionally. Sign writing at 21 years old. Yeah. On the front window of my business I put John 3:1, 16 and 3 inch professional lettering. And I got a soapbox, began preaching the gospel in the local square. Did that every day for about 12 years. Almost every day. And so if anyone could have been considered a religious nut in those days, it was me. Nowadays, I'm much worse.

A (11:04)

Yeah, you're an extremist.

B (11:05)

Yes, and loving it.

A (11:08)

What does repenting actually mean? And how do you do it?

B (11:11)

You can see it in the life of King David. Nathan came to David and he began in the natural. Told of a man who stole another man's lamb as pet lamb. David stood on his high throne and just said, that man will restore fourfold. He knew God's law, and he said, he will die. And that's when Athos said, you are that man. Why have you despised the commandment of the Lord? And then David cried, I've sinned against heaven. And then we see, because of that knowledge of seeing sin as being exceedingly sinful, we have Psalm 51. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to your loving kindness, according to the multitude of your tender mercies. Blot out my transgressions against you, and you only have I sinned. And now this evil in your sight. So that's an insight into genuine repentance. Contrition produces repentance unto life. Scripture says, and you can see it in the life of the prodigal son. He went to his dad and said, give me my money. And then he went to a far country. Why did he go to a far country? Because he wanted to get away from his father. Because he knew he wanted to spend time with prostitutes. That was where his heart wanted to take him. And that really is a picture of atheism. Atheism is a far country. Sinners just want to get away as far away as they can from God. And what brought the prodigal son to his senses? It was when he looked at that pig food and realized he wanted to eat it. When he realized his desires were disgusting, that's what brought him to his senses. And he cried, I'm going to go back to my father and say, I've sinned against heaven, and in your sight make me your servant. And so the thing that shows a sinner that his desires are unclean is the moral law, those ten Commandments. See, the rich young ruler came to Jesus and he said, good master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus immediately reproved his understanding of the word good. Most people don't know what good is. They say, I'm a good person. No, no, no. You need the moral law to show you're not. And Jesus gave the rich young ruler five of the ten commandments. Actually, there's another commandment snuck in there that's not one of the commandments. The words defraud, not Jesus tucked into those commandments, which gives us insight to probably that rich young ruler who was so self righteous, got his money by fraud. Probably. When you say to someone, do you think you go to heaven? They'll say, yeah, I'm going to heaven. Why? Is it because you're a good person? They'll almost certainly say, yes, I'm a good person. Proverbs says that most every man will proclaim his own goodness. Why did they do that? Well, they go about to establish their own righteousness, being ignorant of the righteousness which is of God. So what we must do is what Jesus did, bring in that moral law, bring in the light of the law, and it shows sinners being exceedingly sinful. And this is how I do it. Say, think you've kept the ten Commandments? Oh yeah. How many lies have you told? Oh, lots. Ever stolen something? Yeah, just little things. Ever use God's name in vain? That's the third commandment. Yeah, it's a bad habit. Shouldn't do it. Do you realize you've used God's holy name as a cuss word? That's blasphemy. You would do that with your mother's name. And you've taken the God, the one who gave you a mother, and used his holy name in place of a filth word to express disgust. What am I doing? Applying the law to the conscience. The work of the law written on the heart, the conscience bearing witness. They know it's wrong to blaspheme God's name. They know it's wrong to lie and steal. And then we come to the spiritual nature of the seventh commandment. You shall not commit adultery. But Jesus said, if you look with lust, you've committed adultery in the heart. Ever done that? And every guy says, absolutely all the time. By your own admission, you've just told me you're a lying, thieving, blasphemous adulterer at heart. And you have to face God on judgment day. You're gonna be innocent or guilty. And they say, guilty. Heaven or hell? Looks like I'm heading for hell. And that's happened in a matter of three minutes. What's happened? Prodigal has been shown that his desires are unclean. The sinner has been shown that he's unclean in the eyes of God and he needs God's. Mercy. And that's when the cross will make sense. Now, what modern evangelism does is it circumnavigates that law. I don't want to show people their sin. And this is what the prosperity gospel does. They circumnavigate. Don't talk about sin, righteousness, or judgment. They just say, come to Christ. Give your life to Jesus. So the prodigal goes back home, and instead of saying, I've sinned against heaven, make me your servant. The modern convert says, I've run out of money. You be my servant. They look on God as a divine butler because they've never been shown their sins, and the cross has never been shown to them to make sense. And so it's very important to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and use the law to bring the knowledge of sin. Do what Nathan did with David. Do what Paul did in Romans, chapter two. You who say you shall not steal, do you steal? We need to make Felix tremble. What did Paul do? He reasoned with him of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come. And Felix tremble. We need to do what happened with the Philippian jailer. Give him his own little personal earthquake, put the fear of God. And you say you can't make people fearful. Listen to what Jesus said. He said, fear not him whose power to kill your body and afterwards do no more, but fear him who has power to kill your body and destroy your soul in hell. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And Proverbs says, through the fear of the Lord, men depart from evil. And sinners will never let go of their darling sins until they fear God. And so the fear of the Lord for me not only caused me to depart from sin, but keeps me free from the attraction of sin. Because I know the eye of the Lord is in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

A (16:53)

You know that feeling when you try a protein powder and it tastes like chalk in the dust under your bed?

B (16:57)

Ooh.

A (16:58)

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B (19:44)

Yeah, there's a litmus test you can do with anyone. And it sounds very trite and very simple, but you just say to someone who says, yeah, I gave my life to Jesus when I was six and there's no fruit. They're blaspheming God's name and you want to find out where they're at. You only suspect where they're at. So all you do is say to them, do you think you're a good person? And they'll almost certainly say, yeah. Why? Because they've never seen their own sinfulness. They never had that law applied to their conscience. And so it's very important to find out where someone is so you can give the diagnosis, so you can give the cure. And so that's very, very telling. And there's a way to change someone's mind in about 10 seconds. And I did it yesterday at a local college. This girl says, I'm a good person. I'm a pure person. She went from good to pure. And I says, I can change your mind in 10 seconds. She said, do it. I said, Jesus said, there's none good but God. Who's lying, you or Jesus? And she says, I am. I says, that's right. Let's go to those commandments and see how sinful you really are in God's eyes. Went through the commandments and she said, yeah, I blasphemed God's name. I've lied. I said, you're in big trouble on Judgment Day. That's when the cross made sense to her. And we prayed together. It was just wonderful. And I see it happen again and again. And it's nothing special. It's just using the tools that God has given us. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty. Through God to the pulling down of strong strongholds. You know, it's very important to realize what the enemy does with sinners. Says the God of this world has blinded the minds of them that believe. Not least the light of the glorious gospel, who is the image of Christ should shine unto them. And so Satan wants to stop people hearing the gospel. How do you do that? You stop them seeing their sin. If you don't want someone to see the cure and understand what it is, don't let them see their disease. And so all we're doing as Christians when we go through those Commandments is diagnosing the disease and preparing the way for the Gospel. The Bible says the law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. And it's such an important part. And it's very important because it dissipates your fears when you know where you're going, when you're witnessing. I have two major keys when I share the Gospel. Number one is the sinner's will to live. I know this person I'm talking to is not a dog, horse, cat, or a cow. They're a human being with a will to live. God's placed eternity on their heart. And so I tap into that because Hebrews 2:15. And it says this in the amplified Bible, so I'll quote it a little louder. It says, every human being is haunted by the fear of death all their lifetime. And isn't it true we are haunted by it? And so when I go to the local college, I go with my dog. I've got an electric bike with a platform. My dog sits on the platform wearing sunglasses. I'm wearing sunglasses. And she's the big best bait I've ever had. When fishing for men, I get surrounded by students saying, love me a dog. I've got a friend immediately because of that dog. And the first thing I say is, would you like to come on YouTube? And they say, oh, but shy, we can do this. I'll help you out. First question I ask is this. Are you afraid of death? And the person goes, yeah, a little bit. I said, what do you mean, a little bit? It's horrific. Someone wants to put you in a box and bury you six feet under the ground. This is a horror beyond words. And they go, yeah, yeah. And I can read in their eyes what they're thinking. They're thinking, how does this guy know? How does he know? I haven't told mom and dad, my brother, my sister, that I'm terrified of dying. It takes my breath away. I can't even think about it. And I know because Hebrews tells me this person is haunted by the fear of death. So then I just say this. Ever read the Bible? And this is typical answer in a college, no. So did you know in the Old Testament, God promised he would destroy death? And in the New Testament, we're told Harry did it. Did you know that? And they go, no. So would you like to hear? And who's not going to want to hear when the fear of death is haunting them and someone says God destroyed death? Even atheists sit up and listen. And so I take them through to scripture and say, look, you know why we die? No. It's just natural, isn't it? Everyone's got to die. No, no, no. The Bible tells us the wages of sin is death. God is paying you in death for your sins, like a judge who looks at a heinous criminal that's committed multiple murders and says, I'm g the death sentence. This is your wages. This is what you've earned. And I say, sin is so serious to a holy God. He's given you and I the death sentence. You're on death row. You're in a nice holding cell with a blue roof, good air conditioning, good lighting. But this life is a holding cell. And your death will be evidence to you that God is deadly serious about sin. And I say, do you think God is justified in giving you the death sentence, or are you a good person? And they'll say, I'm a good person. Go through the commandments and they'll say, he's justified. I've been hiding my sin. And then the cross makes sense to him. So that's the first key. And the second key is the knowledge that this person has a conscience. The word conscience means with knowledge. We touched on it before. The work of the law is written on their heart, the conscience bearing witness. So we have an ally right in the heart of the enemy. Now, let me qualify this. Most Christians, and this is probably one of the reasons that many Christians are fearful, is that we think we have to be eloquent. We have to get a grip on apologetics. We have to understand all the cults and all that, and I'm just not knowledgeable. I say the wrong thing.

A (24:55)

That's how I feel all the time. I feel insecure about that.

B (24:57)

Okay, well, you can get around that. And I'll tell you how you can get around it. Romans 8:7 says this. The carnal mind is enmity against God. It is not subject to the law of God. Neither indeed can be. That carnal mind is in a state of hostility. That's the sinner's natural mind. Hostile towards God. How do you know they're hostile? Well, they use his holy name as a cuss word. No one in history has had their name used as a cuss word. Not Muhammad, not Buddha, not Hitler, not Mother Teresa. No one except Jesus Christ. Only one person in God's name. Why is that? Well, Jesus told in John 7, he said, the world hates me because I testify of its deeds. They're evil criminals hate the police because the police stand for righteousness. And the criminal wants to do that which is wrong and that's the state of the sinner. So what I want to do is move away from that carnal mind as quickly as I can because it's an state of hostility. It's going to be contention. I believe in apologetics. We've got a whole Bible called the Evidence Study Bible, which is pregnant with apologetics. But I only use apologetics very lightly. I move away from trying to prove God's existence, the infallibility of scripture, the reason for suffering, all those things. I want to move away from that quickly because I'm going to get contention and I go to the conscience and there's an easy way to do that. All you do is say, do you think you're a good person that's moved from the intellect to the conscience? Even ask atheists, can I have permission to move away from your intellect now to your conscience? And they say, sure. Not realizing how powerful this is, this weapon that I've got. How many lies are you told? Ever stolen something? Use God's name in vain? Why would you do that? You don't believe in God? Ever looked with lust? Had sex outside of marriage? You've just told me you're a lying, thieving, blasphemous, fornicating, self righteous adulterer at heart and he'll hang his head. Why? Because that conscience is an impartial judge on the courtroom of the mind. And it's what Jesus addressed with the rich young ruler. It's what Paul addressed, it's what Nathan addressed and it's what James and others addressed in scripture. And we've got to follow an example of Jesus if we want to be effective. Now that's good news for you because of the fact you don't have to get into deep apologetics. You can just go straight to the conscience and say you think you're a good person. And there's another thing that's helped me get rid of my fears instantly. This is the biggest thing, this is the biggest thing that got rid of Goliath for me and that was this. And I've just got to tell you that the battle that I had when I travel by plane, this is no exaggerating, when the seat next to me was empty, I would subconsciously pray something like this. I'd pray for the person who's going to sit next to me. I'd pray this. Oh Lord, please don't let them show up. I'm not kidding. I didn't want anyone sitting next to me because I Have to witness to them. And it was just terrifying. But I discovered this thing that changed everything. It's this. When I meet a stranger, I'll say, hey, how you doing? Do you think there's an afterlife? That one question. Let me give you an example. Let's say at the ministry we have someone come and do some repairs, a plumber. And I just walk in and say, hey, how you doing? He says, good, I'm Ray, nice to meet you. What's your name? He says, fred. Fred, I got a question for you. Do you think there's life after death? Now, I haven't mentioned Jesus, God, heaven, hell, sin, righteousness, judgment, anything that's making him or me feel a little uncomfortable. I've just said, you think there's life after death? I want his opinion. So Fred stands to his feet and says, that's the big question, isn't it? So you think about it much? He says, yeah, all the time. Now his all the time has just dissipated my fears. He's not Antichrist. He hasn't stabbed me to death. He's a human being with a will to live. Eternity's on his heart and he thinks about his own mortality. So I said, well, do you think heaven exists? He said, I hope so. Are you going to be going there? Yeah, I think I'm a good person. So let's have a look. We'll go through the commandments and it's as simple as that. I'm not fearful because I know exactly where I'm going. So you've got your will to live and you've got your conscience. Think of it like this. A waitress in a restaurant sees three businessmen come in and sit down at a table. They've got three piece suits on, they've got little cases on the desk. They're obviously wheeling and dealing millions of dollars. So what does she do, cower in the corner? No, she just walks up and says, can I take your order? Why is she so bold? Well, it's because she knows she has what they want. They are there for food and that's what gives her the boldness. And we have what this world wants. Now, I'm not exaggerating. I don't think right at this moment there are millions of people around the world in torture chambers called gyms lifting weights that are far, far too heavy for them. And I believe in physical fitness, as you can see from my physique. But what are they doing this for? Why are they drinking green slime instead of chocolate milkshakes?

A (29:43)

They're trying to Live longer.

B (29:44)

They want to extend their life just that little bit. But we haven't got an extension of life. We've found immortality in Christ, treasure in earthen vessels, everlasting life through trusting in Jesus. And so we know we have what the world wants. And that, like with the waitress, should provoke our boldness. That's what makes me walk up and just say, can I take your order? Sort of thing to somebody.

A (30:10)

Yeah. Have you seen that guy? What is his name? Is it Brian Johnson or something like that? But he's literally trying to live forever. He wants to be, like the oldest living person. He's doing all of these biohacking things. He's super in health and wellness, and I am, too. I mean, this entire podcast is about health and wellness, you know, but I'm focusing on physical health, emotional health, and spiritual health, hence this interview. So every interview falls into one of those categories. But man on my heart, every single time I see that man pop up on social media, I'm like, more than anything, this guy needs to be witnessed to, like. It is just. It bothers me every time I see him. I would love for you to sit down with this guy. I just feel like in the health and wellness space especially, there are so many people like that where, you know, I. I love this because I want to steward the body that God gave me. I want to be, you know, existing and operating at the best of my ability so that I can get out and do the work that God wants me to do. That's my purpose for being into health and wellness. But there are a lot of people who are really trying to cheat and beat death.

B (31:08)

Yes.

A (31:09)

I also think there are millions of people, Ray, who claim to be Christians, who are saying that they're saved because they've said the sinner's prayer. What is missing or what can be a problem with the sinner's prayer?

B (31:22)

Well, you immediately get the fur on the back of Christians up when you say, I don't believe in the sinner's prayer because it's so accepted. You know, the gospel's been twisted to God has a wonderful plan for your life. You want to experience the wonderful plan that God has? Just say this prayer and give your heart to Jesus. It's not biblical. The whole wonderful plan thing for a starter isn't true. You look at the disciples. James was beheaded, John the Baptist was beheaded, the disciples were killed. Stephen was stoned to death. It takes about 15 minutes to stone someone to death. It's horrific beyond words. And we say, oh, God, Has a wonderful plan for your life. Well, scripture says we enter the kingdom of God through much tribulation. I didn't know what problems were until I became a Christian. The world, the flesh, and the devil who hated for his namesake. The time will come when people will kill you thinking they're doing God a service. So why be a Christian? Well, everlasting life is a free gift of God. That's what we receive in Christ. So Christianity doesn't offer, as someone said, a smooth flight, but it offers a safe landing. That's what matters. Everlasting life. If someone kills me today for being a Christian, I've got everlasting life. That's what matters. All by the grace of God. So the sinner's prayer is unbiblical. And let me show you why it's, how can I put it? Really dumb. If a man has committed adultery against his wife, and she says, I'm willing to take him back. And I say, okay, I'll bring him to you. We go to the door, knock on the door, the door opens, she's standing there. And I say to him, your husband is here to ask your forgiveness for what he did to you. So, one moment. So, Fred, here's your wife. Just repeat this after me. Dear wife, I'm really sorry. I committed adultery. And so he repeats it to the wife, say, I won't do it again. That's crazy. She's gonna slam the door and say, what are you talking about? I'm interested in his words. I want to know his heart. Is he genuinely sorry? And we think we can lead people to God and have them repeat a prayer of repentance? It's not in scripture. Nathan didn't lead David in a sinner's prayer. You don't find it in scripture. So when I find someone as contrite, they're really sorry for their sins. I say, can I pray with you? And I just pray that God will open the eyes of their understanding and they'll be genuinely sorry. And sometimes I get them to pray, but I don't lead them because it's not in scripture. And that tradition has actually filled the church with false converts. Stony ground hearers, particularly that Jesus spoke of in the parable of the Sower. A sign of a stony ground hearer is that he receives the word with joy and gladness, but in a time of temptation, falls away. That's a false convert. Joy and gladness, there is no contrition. Sorrow for sin. James, in addressing sinners, says, cleanse your hands, you sinners purify your hearts, you double minded. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to heaviness. That's the straight gate. Jesus said, straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it. And he said to strive to enter that straight gate. That would strive in the Greek is from the same word of which we derive our word agonize. So it's not easy to become a Christian. It entails, like in natural birth, pain and suffering. When someone's born naturally, there's pain and suffering. And when someone's born spiritually, there should be genuine contrition, brokenness of heart. Oh God, I've sinned, sinned against you. Have mercy upon me, according to your loving kindness against you. And you only have I sinned. So we see so many that aren't genuinely converted. They join the church as a kind of club, as tears among the wheat, foolish virgins among the wise, bad fish among the good, goats among the sheep, which will be sorted out on the day of judgment. When Jesus warned that many would say to him on that day, lord, Lord. And he'll say, depart from me, you worker of lawlessness. No regard to the divine law. They commit adultery in their eyes and their heart, lie and steal and blaspheme God's name and call themselves Christians. Workers of iniquity. Says, I'll never, I never knew you. Depart from me. What a fearful thing.

A (35:29)

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B (37:55)

Yeah. The Bible says demons believe and tremble. I believed in Jesus before I was a Christian. I used to pray every night to God. I used to say the Lord's Prayer. I believe Jesus was the Son of God, that he rose from the dead, but I hadn't yielded my heart to him. This is what the Bible says, though he were a son. This is of Jesus. Yet learned he obedience by the things that he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation to all that obey him. If you read the Ten Commandments, they begin with, I am the Lord your God. Very interesting words because it's used many times in the Old Testament. I am the Lord your God. God is the God of every atheist, but he's not their Lord. Lord means supreme of the universe, the one to whom we owe allegiance. I am the Lord your God. We see genuine conversion in Thomas where he knelt before Jesus and said, my Lord and my God. And so important to realize that Scripture says when we come to Christ, we acknowledge him as Lord of our lives. We have a Gethsemane experience where we sweat drops of blood in repentance and say, not my will, but yours be done. So being a Christian is not just a matter of believing in Jesus. There are multitudes who believe in Jesus but have never obeyed him. He said, why do you call me Lord and do not the things that I tell you? And the reason they sit amongst God's people with that false sense of assurance is they've never passed through the straight gate. Jesus said, straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life. Here there be a fighter. And then he said, this broad is the path that leads to destruction. And many go in that way. That go in is a way of entry. That's the way of entry of a false conversion. Remember the man who built his house on rock and the man who built his house on sand both had the same storms. The man who built his house on rock was those that obeyed the teachings of Jesus. Man on sand heard the teachings of Jesus and did not obey them. So it's not speaking of the Christian and the world out there. The world don't hear the sayings of Jesus and not obey them. The professed Christian within the church hear the sayings of Jesus, go into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature. They don't because they've not yielded to him as their Lord. They live for themselves. The Bible says the backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways. When I became a Christian, I yielded my will to God. Present your body as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And that's the key to successful Christianity. You want to know what you have to do to find freedom in Christ? It was told in a story of a dumb little story I used to read to my kids called Tootle. Have you ever heard it? It's very famous. No. It's a little train that came down a hill and it saw lambs leaping around in a field. And it thought, I want to be free like those lambs. So it jumped the tracks. But instead of getting freedom, it got disaster.

A (40:56)

Oh yeah, because it didn't have his tracks anymore.

B (40:58)

That's right. Because it's a train is designed to find freedom within the confine of the tracks. That's where it finds freedom and we find freedom. Yoked to Jesus. Yoked to Jesus Come to Me, all you that labor and are heavy laden. I'll give you rest, take my yoke upon you and learn of me, and you shall find rest to your soul. So freedom in Christ comes from total submission to his lordship. Freedom from sin, freedom from death, freedom from God's judgment, freedom from the grave. He said, if you truly are my disciples, a disciplined person, you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. And so many Christians professed have cheated themselves by not coming through that straight gate.

A (41:38)

I have a lot of moms who listen to my podcast, and most of their time is spent at home, you know, raising babies, homeschooling, serving their families. So what tips for evangelism do you have for moms for that season of life?

B (41:50)

Yes. Not only for moms, but anyone who has the same problem. Like someone who. Who works. How can you. I've got to look out for my family. I've got to work. I just did. I say to them, this. You have a lunch hour. I say, yeah. What are you doing in lunch hour? Do you spend the whole hour munching lunch? You've got no teeth. How long does it take you to eat lunch? So don't call it a lunch hour. Call it a fishing hour. Say, okay, every day I'm gonna go out during my lunch hour or my time at home and just look for sinners. People are walking around the streets. I might take my dog for a walk. If you've got a dog, you've got a friend and a stranger, or take some tracks with you. Or we've got something called the Ten Commandment coin, which has got the commandments on one side and the gospel on the. It's made of aluminum. It's got perceived value. And when you meet a stranger, say, how you doing? They say, good. So I got a gift for you. What is that? It's a coin with the Ten commandments on one side and the gospel on the other. I gotta thank ChatGPT for this. About six months ago, I typed in some good questions to ask people about the Ten Commandments, and number three threw me against the wall. It was just amazing. It was this. Which is the hardest commandment to keep. Keep. Ooh. And I thought, I'm gonna try this. So Huntington beach went there with a camera crew, and I handed a coin to a guy. I says, coin of the Ten Commandments. He said, oh, thank you. I said, which is the hardest commandment to keep? He says, adultery. I said, you've been committing adultery? He says, yeah.

A (43:13)

Oh, my gosh. He just Admits this on camera on YouTube. Yeah, some of these people.

B (43:18)

Yeah. Well, I just had a guy last week, he says, I see you committed adultery. He says, yeah, I have. And I turned to the woman, said, what about you? He Sundays, she has two. I says, Boy, you're getting yourself in trouble here. This is on camera. And anyway, that question actually causes the person to reveal their secret sins. People say, yeah, lying is my big problem. Well, using God's name in vain. So you do that. Yeah, I do it a lot. You're immediately right at the point of addressing their sins. And that little coin opens the door for us.

A (43:48)

What are people getting wrong when they try to start a conversation with a non believer?

B (43:52)

I was just starting the day. Next, natural, relax, smile. Make the person feel relaxed.

A (43:56)

Ask them, don't be weird.

B (43:57)

Yeah, don't be weird. Yeah, just say, nice day, you know, and then you can. Once you've said to the person that I've felt your sanity, if there's any, you just say, do you think there's life after death? And use the Socratic method. I didn't realize it, but someone says, use Socratic method. Well, you just ask the person questions, do you think there's life after death? Are you going to heaven when you die? Are you a good person? Have you kept the ten Commandments? How many lies do you think have you told? Told question after question? There's no accusations, there's just question after question. And you let them talk and then let the conscience do its work. So if you can keep those two things in mind, that person's got a will to live. They're gonna be on your side because they want to live. If you can tap into that and that conscience needs to be awakened, and you can awaken it by just going through the commandments or saying to someone, do you think you're a good person? I get accused of being a one trick pony, but it works. Yeah, well, that's. I gotta admit, I've been doing the same thing for 40. If you think it's boring to hear me say, how many lies do you think you've told? I've heard it a lot more than you have, but it works. You're right. So I'm not gonna change the gospel.

A (45:05)

Okay. So it's interesting you say this. This is perfect segue to my next question, which was, do you need to tailor the way you share the gospel depending on the type of person you're evangelizing. For example, an agnostic, an atheist, a Mormon, a Roman Catholic.

B (45:19)

Yeah, just a little okay, but not too much.

A (45:21)

So, like, what would you do for a Roman Catholic if you want to share the gospel?

B (45:24)

I go deeper. Deaf with a Roman Catholic. There's a reason for that. Okay. I say, hey, do you think it's an afterlife? I'm a Roman Catholic, so I didn't hear that. I just went straight past it. Because I'm going in my mind, if I heard that say, oh, no, I have to deal with papal infallibility, Mariology, confessional transubstantiation, it's going to freak me out. So I just said, do you think you're a good person? Yeah, I'm a really good person. So you're going to heaven when you die? Yeah. Why? Well, I take the communion, so. Well, let's see if you are a good person.

A (45:53)

So if they say no, if they say, I'm a Roman Catholic, you pretend to go deaf. And then they go, you say, are you a good person? They say, no, I know I'm not. Then you're like, okay, you're probably saved.

B (46:01)

No.

A (46:01)

Oh, then what do you do?

B (46:02)

Some people say, yeah, I'm a really bad person. Say, what do you mean? Oh, I'm not as kind as I should be to people. It's something like that. Very superficial. We tend to trivialize sin. So I still apply that law. Even if someone says, yeah, I'm a sinner, so let's see how bad you are. Because they don't think they're worthy of hell. See our problem? This is an analogy I use, and I use even with non Christians. So you're walking along the street and you see a wooden building, two story, and you see the smoke coming out of the basement, and then you see flames licking up. And you look at second story, you know, there's a guy in there, he's a night shift worker, and he's gonna be asleep right now. So you take a stone, throw it at the window. He comes to the window and says, what are you doing? I says, your house is on fire. He says, no, it's not. Go away. I'll call the police if you keep this up. And he slams the window closed. What are you gonna do? You gonna say, oh, burn then, buddy, and walk off? No, this is a test of your character. You're gonna throw rocks at that window. You're gonna bang on because you want to awaken him to his danger. You don't just want to awaken him, you want to alarm him. And the stones that God has given us to throw at the window of sinners. Is the commandments, those stones of the law.

A (47:07)

So how do you bring it home when you're evangelizing? So they admit, I've broken all these different commandments. You say, okay, well, you're headed towards hell. And then how do you wrap it up with them?

B (47:16)

I say, do you know what God did for guilty sinners like you and me? So they know I'm in the same boat as them. It takes off that whole pointing the finger thing. What did God do? And people say, I don't know. So you actually do, but you don't understand it. And so you don't understand it and you don't value it. That's why you don't value it, because you don't understand it. Have you heard of Jesus dying on the cross? Yeah. Yeah, I have. So why did he die? For our sins. Now, if a person's a Roman Catholic, which I didn't hear them say, but I usually go back and say this. So Jesus died for our sins? They say, yeah. Say, how can that help you 2000 years ago, Jesus died for our sins. What does that mean to you? You're heading for hell. How can that help you? And they'll go, I don't know. I say, is it. You think that Jesus dying on the cross was setting an example to love your enemies? Is that why he died on the cross? Yeah, that's what he did. It's an example of how we should live. I said, no, no, let me share the gospel with you. You and I broke God's law. Jesus paid the fine. That's what happened on that cross. That's why he said, it is finished. Just before he died, he was saying, paid in full. I said, if you're in court and you've got speeding fines and you admit your guilt, a judge will let you go. If someone pays those fines, he'll say, you're free to go even though you're guilty, you're out of here. Cause someone paid your fine and it's legal for him to let you go. Say God can legally take death off you because of what Jesus did on the cross and paying a fine, rising from the dead. And you see the light going on because they've never heard it in the Catholic Church. Jesus was always an example, not a sacrifice once and for all for sin, so we could have everlasting life by God's amazing grace. And so Catholics immediately so often say, I'm going to get right with God right now. I've never known this. And they'll thank you because they've suddenly seen you've thrown stones at the window because you care about them. They can smell the smoke and say, man, I'm going to get out of here. I see what you're saying and that's the motivation for everything we do do. It's love. As I said earlier, others having compassion. I genuinely love sinners with all my heart. I don't want anyone go to hell. And one thing that makes me weep is the fact I don't weep when I share the gospel with people. I don't even weep when I pray. I've got a hard heart. I say, God, soften my heart. Cause me to use every day I can to reach out to the lost. I go to the local college twice a day normally to share the gospel with sinners because I care about them. My motivation is love. The love of Christ compels me.

A (49:46)

What encouragement do you have for a Christian who's faithfully sharing the gospel? But they just feel like they're seeing very little fruit. Like they're like, man, I'm evangelizing so many people and I'm just not seeing major conversions.

B (49:58)

I preach the gospel almost every day for 12 years and didn't see any fruit, hardly any fruit. Once or twice some lady smacked him in the mouth and then punched me in the face. And some guy came down from the crowd, he says, I was just praying, God, would you please show me if you're real? And I saw that I want to come to Christ. And I thought, well, that's amazing. That happened because I got a smack in the mouth. What it'll take to bring revival all those years was just a matter of sowing in tears. And that's what we're doing when we're Christians. We're sowing the seed of God's word. I'm not out to get a decision that's not a success. I'm out to sow in someone's heart and if someone listens to me, that's great success. I end up by saying, do you understand what we've talked about today? And I say, yeah, I really do. I understand what this. That pleases me. Because the good soil hearer in the parable of the sower is he who hears and understands. That's what Philip the evangelist said to the Ethiopian eunuch. Do you understand what you're reading? And so what we want to do is not say, jesus, help your marriage, drug problem, alcohol problem, fill the God shaped vacuum in your heart. No, no, we want you to understand you're under God's. Wrath. If you die in your sins, you'll end up in hell justly. You need God's mercy. Do you understand that? Can you see your house is on fire? Are you awakened and alarmed? Or are you just awakened where you say, I can see what you're saying? No. I want you to run from the house. I want you to flee to the Savior. Because that's what a genuine Christian is. Someone who's fled to Jesus and sought mercy.

A (51:28)

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B (54:27)

Yeah, I'm not around my sister all the time, but I do have a sister and I'm terrified of her. Now. She's not a monster. She's very sweet and very nice. But this is why I'm terrified to share the gospel with her. If I offend a thousand atheists to a point where they want to kill me, I haven't lost anything. But if I offend my sister, I've lost everything. I don't want to offend her. So evangelizing your family becomes like a Goliath to you because you know you can upset your mom and your dad where they say, get out of my house. You're fanatic. You don't want that to happen. So don't win them with work. Win them with works. They want to see your faith. Buy them gifts when it's not Christmas. Buy them gifts when it's not their birthday, when it's expected. Just say, mom, I was at shopping. I thought I just Want to give you this. You mean so much to me. I love you so much. And a gift can stop the mouth. So is the will of God that by your well doing you put to silence the ignorance of foolish men. How do you put to silence the ignorance of foolish men person? While doing, let them see your good works and glorify your father which is in heaven. Let me just go back a little bit because I wanted to touch on atheists because you brought it up a little earlier on. Oh yeah. An atheist is not an intelligent person. An atheist is someone who lacks a brain. I've actually said to atheists in the past, do you believe God gave you a brain? They say no. So it's pretty obvious he didn't. Because you're an atheist. Because an atheist believes, and this is true definition, an atheist believes a scientific impossibility that nothing created everything. Not that there was nothing in the beginning. An atheist believes that flowers, birds, trees, the sun, the moon, the stars, puppies and kittens, the marvels of the human eye, the miracle of childbirth, the incredible human brain, male and female, everything came together because nothing created it. That's worse than insane. That's why the Bible says the fool has said in his heart there's no God. So when I meet an atheist, I proved to him God's existence scientifically.

A (56:29)

How?

B (56:30)

Very simply. All you do, you just gotta have a building handy. You just turn and say, see the building? Yeah. How do you know there was a builder? You can't see him, hear him, touch them, taste them or smell them. How do you know there was a builder? The atheist will say, well, the building's there. That's right. You know, the building can't build itself. So let's take the scientific principle to paintings and painters. When you look at a painting, how do you know there was a painter? Well, the painting's there. Paintings don't paint themselves. So let's take it one further. Creation. Creation is evidence of a creator. It's scientifically impossible for nature or creation to have made itself utterly scientifically impossible. So that's what the scriptures say in the book of Romans, the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made, even as eternal power and Godhead. You know one thing that helps me get over a lot of things that, that concern me, like suffering. Why does God allow suffering? I mean, I know why there's suffering. We've got Genesis, we live in a fall. We have disease, pain, suffering, death and dandruff and Dentists, all these things are evidences of a fallen creation. Dentist, I'm going to be in trouble now. Why is it that God allows people to suffer? It's not just he got cancer and he died. No, he got cancer and he spent two years not being able to breathe and then he died. Why does God allow that? And the way I handle it is with my dog's eye. I say, what are you talking about? I got a dog, Lucy. And when I look into her eye, I can see her soul. You see, human beings have got faces, we've got skin. We can show an expression a dog doesn't. It's just fur. So when I look in my dog's eye, I see emotion, I see excitement, I see fear, I see anticipation. Just in that eyeball, I can see into a very soul. And I think, how could God create an eye? 137 million light sensitive cells. So you take it from a tiny part of God's creation to the biggest part, or one of the biggest parts, like the sun. I wouldn't suggest you do this, but go to the sun, cut it in half and find the middle atom, split that in half, turn it over and look on the inside side. God's already seen it because he made it. And so thinking like this about dog's eyes and atoms and the sun enlarges my view of God and his power and his nature and his character. And so when I look at suffering and try and work it out, I think, can't work it out. But how could I ever understand the mind of God if I can't figure out a dog's eye or Adam and the sun? How could I know the mind of God and know his purpose? Look at the life of Joseph. Things were going well. Taken by his brothers. They wanted to kill him. Dropped in a pit and taken and sold as a slave. Then he's thrown in prison. False accusation. I think it was 17 years in prison. But God was working his good will in his life. And so we see so often in scripture, like all these things happening. And we realize that God has his purposes that are far beyond ours. Who has known the mind of the Lord? Scriptures say it's rhetorical. His ways are infinitely above our ways. So I do what Spurgeon said to do. He says, faith may swim where reason may only paddle. Try and work out the issue of suffering. You're not going to be able to reason that out. You're going to be very shallow. But if you just say, lord, I see the power that you have, I trust you then, no matter what comes your way, whether it's a lion's den, whether it's a red sea, you can say, lord, I trust you in this because you are faithfully promised.

A (60:12)

How can we trust that believing in Jesus Christ, that he is the son of God, is the only true way to get to heaven when there are so many options?

B (60:22)

You look at the great religions, Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam and all the other isms like the cults, etc. If you begin looking closely at them, they're all, all of them are works. Righteousness religions, they say you have to do something, and this includes Catholicism. You have to do something to merit eternal life. Facemaker, fast, pray, do good works, do religious works, repentance, all these things, they're things you have to do. Now what changes the dynamic is when you see God as the judge, and you'll never see him as a judge when you strip him of his law.

A (60:58)

Law.

B (60:59)

When we forsake the law of God, those commandments, then God isn't a judge, he's just a man in the sky. But when you see him in truth, that he is the habitation of justice, as scripture says, that he loves righteousness. When you see him as a judge, then when we come before him and offer him anything for the forgiveness of sins, that is not good works. That is an attempt to bribe the judge of the universe. And you won't even do that in a, in a man's court. If you openly offer a bribe, you're going to be in big trouble. And the Bible says the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord. Nothing in my hand I bring simply to the cross I cling. And so in Christ, God came down and satisfied that law. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us. And so the gospel is good news for the Hindu. He doesn't need to lie on beds of nails or sit on a pole for 15 years as a sacrifice to God. It's good news for the Muslim. He doesn't need to try and be a good Muslim and pray five times a day and do all these religious works. The gift of God is eternal life. And you cannot earn a gift. And that's why the gospel is good news for all the great religions. Eternal life is a free gift of God. You just let go and let God, God's amazing grace. He saves you because of his mercy, not by works of righteousness which we have done. So when you meet a Muslim, just take him through the commandments, show him that his efforts to be saved by his own work. Works aren't going to cut it on Judgment day. It won't even work in a court of law. You can't buy your way out.

A (62:30)

Do you believe that God chooses who will be saved? Or that we have free will?

B (62:34)

Boy, that's a sticky one for me. Yeah, I believe we have the same will as Lazarus. Lazarus is dead. He stinks. Six days, poor guy. His sister said he stinks. So in the greatest book through history, biggest selling of all time, Lazarus stinks. All because of his sisters. And he stinks by now. But Lazarus was dead when he heard the voice of the Son of God, which brought him alive. Then he had the choice to respond. He could have laid in that grave if he wanted to get out of here. But he made a choice to come out. And so we're dead in our trespasses and sins. God makes us alive in Christ. And then we have a free will to respond to him as Lord or to have our backs to him.

A (63:17)

If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, physically, emotionally or spiritually, what would it be?

B (63:24)

Gospel. I can't tell you what the gospel did to me. It released me not only from my fears, the fear of death, etc. But it made me love righteousness. You know, we're a culture that is zealous to slaughter babies in the womb. Not just like apathetic. But yeah, abortions are woman's right now. They're teeth gritted, fiery. Why? Because we've got demonic forces motivating them. Homosexuality, the same thing. It's zealousness for these things. What's the answer? Legislation, yeah, could help. But the answer's the gospel. Why? Because the gospel takes a heart that loves to sin and causes us to love righteousness. What a miracle that is. Here's me drinking iniquity like water, lusting after every woman that I saw. And I tell you, this is a confession. The night that I saw lust was a sin in God's eyes, my heart sunk. Not because of my sin or contrition, but because God was putting his finger on my greatest pleasure in life. When I used to surf, I used to have to dangle my feet as shark bait, travel hundreds of miles, try and get a surf. Am I to get a good wave? Yeah. But with lust, it's instantaneous pleasure for a guy. And God was saying it's wrong. But what happened? The miracle is that God put within me me something that delighted to do his will. I delight to do your will. Oh my God, I love righteousness. I never had that before. I had as much desire for the word righteousness before I was a Christian as a 4 year old boy has for the word bath. I wasn't interested in righteousness. Didn't even know what it really meant. But as soon as I became a Christian, oh, that baby in the womb is so precious. Oh, man and a woman. Woman marriage. Yeah, because that's what God said. He instigated that. So that's the answer. It's not political, that's not dealing with the root of the problem. The gospel goes right to the root of the problem and transforms the heart of a sin loving sinner so that we love righteousness.

A (65:26)

Where can people watch you do street evangelism?

B (65:28)

Oh, on our YouTube channel.

A (65:29)

What is it?

B (65:30)

Living Waters, YouTube or Ray Comfort. They can find us on YouTube.

A (65:33)

If people want to be trained by you specifically, like I want to learn how to evangelize like you. Is there a course? Is there a book?

B (65:40)

Yes. We have the School of Biblical evangelism which has 20,000 online members. We have the Ambassadors Academy where people can come here. I think we have once or maybe twice a year about 100 people come and we have three days on the street, sink or swim. And it really is life changing once they understand the principles that help you deal with your fears. So there's the Ambassador's Academy and the School of Biblical Evangelism and you can find that on livingwaters.com thank you Ray.

A (66:07)

For coming on Culture Apothecary.

B (66:08)

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

A (66:13)

I know that we are going to have some great theological discussions based on this episode. You can DM Me and talk about it at Real Alex Clark or you can talk about in the cute service Facebook group with other like minded women and nuke it out. But let's just keep it respectful. I'm so excited to have had Ray on the show. He is such an absolute legend and getting to be around him, talk to him, learn from him is such a blessing for me and I hope so for you as well. Please leave a five star review for this episode if you haven't already. That really helps the show out. Even if you disagree, you can leave a five star review and and say the Ray Comfort episode I disagreed with and tell us why. We have new episodes every Monday and Thursday at 6pM Pacific, 9pM Eastern where we try to heal a sick culture with different expert guests. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.