← Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Why Smart People Are Ditching Their Doctor For A Naturopath | Razi Berry
01:02:03
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- [00:00]
A
I know my audience is going to like to hear this, but What I predict, 20, 28 and beyond, I think we're going to swing the other way now and we're going to elect some extreme socialist like aoc.
- [00:11]
B
I agree with you. However, socialized medicine is not the answer.
- [00:15]
A
What is the biggest misunderstanding about naturopathic medicine?
- [00:19]
B
They actually criminalized medical doctors from associating with what they call quackery, which was naturopathic, homeopathic midwifery and herbal medicine.
- [00:31]
A
By who?
- [00:32]
B
Rockefeller.
- [00:57]
A
20,000 new doctors will graduate medical school this year. And most of them were never taught how to actually get someone well. Not how to find root cause, not how to reverse chronic illness, not how to use food, environment or lifestyle as real medicine. They were trained in a system where the standard of care isn't always the best care. It's just the most approved, the most billable and the most protected. So what happens to the patients who don't get better? And today's guest has spent over two decades documenting exactly that. Joining me today is Razzie Berry. Yes, Like Raspberry, founder and publisher of ndnr, the journal of Applied Natural Medicine, home to the largest archive of naturopathic, integrative and functional medicine case reports. She spent over 20 years chronicling the history, the patterns and the quiet tensions between conventional and natural medicine. We're talking about how modern medicine became pharmaceutical first, why natural and low cost therapies were pushed to the margins, and who actually decides what counts as legitimate care. This episode is going to challenge what you think you know about healthcare and also just give a basic, like fifth grade level understanding of what naturopathic medicine is and why it may be the best alternative for your family and encourage you to get out of the typical health insurance matrix and start paying cash for your doctor. Watch this episode on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel and culture Apothecary on Spotify. Before we jump in, if you take five seconds and leave a five star review for this show on Spotify or Apple, it would really help us out. Please welcome Razzie Berry to Culture apothecary. This year, 20,000 MDs are graduating medical school. What did they not learn in school that is now going to impact how they practice medicine?
- [02:43]
B
So medical school is like, let's say Harvard Medical school. It's about 23 or 31 courses throughout the whole medical curriculum, which is about a year and a half of schooling and then they go straight into clinical. They are then shadowing the other doctors or following the other doctors who are doing these five to 15 minute patient visits. And so they aren't getting as deep of a didactic education where they can really think about the rationale behind a treatment that a patient would get. Whereas in naturopathic medical school, it's more like 130 courses that are taken throughout the whole four years. And they, they don't do as much clinical rotation until later when they're about to graduate or after they graduate. But in my opinion, that sets up the MD, and it's not the MD's fault the way the education is structured, but they aren't as prepared to think outside of the box, to treat the patient as an individual, to get to their individual history, their background, what they've been exposed to, even stresses in their life, to really put together a treatment plan. And so they also don't have as much biochemistry, which is important to understand how natural and synthetic products affect you at a cellular level. So it's a lot more, medical school is a lot more, you learn, you know, 23 to 31 courses and then you're just in there following a doctor who's quickly treating the patient, kind of constrained by the insurance model. And so I, I think it's difficult for them to be able to really have a rationale of the therapeutic decisions they're going to make.
- [04:26]
A
You've spent over 20 years kind of taking note of all of the times that traditional conventional medicine has failed people with extraordinary cases. Why does it feel like most conventional doctors either aren't trained or aren't incentivized to find root cause?
- [04:46]
B
Well, it's really hard to find the root cause when you are constrained to, you know, seven to 15 minutes to seeing a patient. So I don't really fault the doctors at all. And when we start talking about the history of education, in a minute we'll kind of understand the, the market behind why that happened. The problem is, is that patients aren't given these options and then the doctors aren't given that training. Whereas a naturopathic doctor, the whole philosophy behind it is to understand that the body has this innate ability to heal. When you first get rid of anything, that's an obstacle to that. And after that, you can then strengthen the body's own healing mechanisms. And then it's higher up on the list to where you do more higher force interventions like surgery, like biologics, like antibiotics. And so it's more of really listening to what the patient's going through as an individual.
- [05:44]
A
And if you had to guess, and I know we don't have hard data on this, but we're just going to guesstimate. If you were to guess a percentage of Americans who are getting worse and not better because they are following standard of care, what percentage would you throw out there on a whim?
- [06:00]
B
Well, if you look at the numbers behind iatrogenic causes of death, which are like medical mistakes, basically, that's like the third leading cause of death in the United States. So, you know, 30% of people are suffering because of medical malpractice or for side effects of a disease. And again, I don't, I don't fault the doctors. You know, most MDs, conventional medicine doctors, they go to school because they have a heart to help people. But it's just the way the system is set up and the education is funded by that system.
- [06:34]
A
At its core, what is naturopathic medicine?
- [06:37]
B
Naturopathic medicine is a unique paradigm that takes into consideration something we call the Vicks medicatrix naturae, the healing power of a nature, the innate, sometimes you call it the immune system, the life force that all living things possess, that your cells are constantly turning over. Your body is always trying to keep homeostasis and allostasis so it can interact with its environment in a way that's optimal. And so naturopathic medicine is taught to, to look at that and to say instead of a high force method, which is called heroic medicine, and that was started in the 1700s as something you force the body into health, Naturopathic medicine looks at how do we gently guide the body and then once we strengthen those systems, what do we need to do? Because sometimes medication is necessary. So naturopathic medicine isn't against medication. It's just more of a different philosophy of how, what, what, when, where and why you approach each treatment modality.
- [07:42]
A
You were a skeptic, you were even resistant to naturopathic care at first. What was going on with you and how did you change your mind?
- [07:50]
B
Well, I grew up very allopathically, thanks mom. And I even thought that going to a do was basically quackery. It was just how my mom was raised as well, kind of that white coat syndrome. So in my early 20s, I was struggling with just sort of some unusual neurological symptoms that kind of, you know, ended up a prodrome for something that happened later. But I had been going to so many doctors and they just either weren't spending time with me or they would just tell me there was nothing wrong. When I knew my body really well and when it started to affect my everyday life, my work, my ability to sleep, my Ability to enjoy my life. I was just reluctantly went to a naturopathic clinic and I was scared to do it, but it just opened up a whole new world. They asked me questions about my childhood. How was I, what was my birth story? Was I C section baby or was I a vaginal birth? Was my mother able to breastfeed? What line of work? Like, I had a doctor who realized that at one point I sold new homes like in a model home. And there are a lot of pesticides used because they don't want clients to come in and see like a grasshopper or an ant or something. I was very much exposed to pesticides at that time, so I had never had a doctor ask me those questions. Keep a food diary, keep a sleep diary. Are you going through any emotional stressors? And I thought that was so amazing. And I became sort of a believer after that. And it also makes me feel sad for doctors who don't get the opportunity to practice in that way because again, I think all doctors for the most part go to medical school because they really want to help people. But we've just really clamped down on different types of medicine outside of the, you know, the biological pharmaceutical model.
- [09:39]
A
Well, and the way that when you talk about, you know, it's not the doctor's fault, it's how the system is set up and insurance is set up is they're trying to get as many bodies through the door as possible. It's all about quantity, it's not about quality. And so in order to get as many bodies through the door as possible in your general practitioner's office, you're talking about 10 to 15 minute wellness visits, max. Well, in a 10 to 15 minute wellness visit, you cannot do those types of thorough questions that, you know, you just described that you were given by a naturopath. And so really you need an hour or so appointment, hour and a half appointment with these doctors to really start, you know, kind of doing some detective work into what's really going on with people.
- [10:22]
B
Right. Could you imagine going to an attorney or trying to learn an instrument or, you know, fixing a broken leak in your house and somebody literally spends, you know, five to seven minutes looking at it or trying to understand the situation there. These health is too important. It's our most valuable asset that we have. And so to relegate it to something in such a short amount of time and the insurance model is really a disservice. And I have sort of, and I. It sounds like you might agree I have sort of a unique perspective, a Lot of people want naturopathic medicine to be included in insurance, but. But what I worry about is what happens if naturopathic medicine gets squeezed into a 7 to 15 minute visit. How could that survive? Because the insurance only wants to reimburse for a short amount of time, just for the reason you said, because they need to get so much, you know, reimbursement hours, minutes per hour.
- [11:17]
A
One thing that I'm super passionate about is not trying to get all of this natural medicine covered by traditional insurance. I'm super passionate about educating the American people that you do not need to rely on traditional health insurance. I think there's so much propaganda, you know, what if something bad happens? What will I do? Like, how would I be able to afford it? Like, there is so much misinformation about how predatory American health insurance is, that there is a way out of that matrix, that there is a way to be able to. And you know, I, I really believe in, in some health shares and crowdsourcing and things like that. And so I think that is really the way of the future for people to have access to doctors like this to be able to pay for their birth or what have you, your doula, your postpartum doula, all these amazing things, and have somebody fund it. But you're out of the traditional health insurance model. I think that is keeping so many Americans prisoners is they feel like, well, I really want to use that stuff, but I can't because it's not an insurance.
- [12:17]
B
Right. You know, exactly right. And look at how much families have to spend on insurance. It's like the insurance company always wins. The doctors lose, the patients lose, the insurance companies always win.
- [12:30]
A
These people, family of four is spending like $1,200 a month on health insurance, and one out of every four claims is denied. What are you paying for that? That's what I'm trying to get through people's heads is what are you paying for? So anyway, I use crowd health. I talk about it on the show. Yeah, I'm super passionate about this. And, and I think that's something that people kind of automatically write off. Something like naturopathic medicine or naturopathic doctors, they get freaked out because they're like, well, what do you mean my insurance doesn't cover this. It's pay cash. I think they hear pay cash. And they think, well, this means it's like way more expensive.
- [13:03]
B
And honestly, people just need to reassert their priorities because I don't hear people saying, like, well, I can't get my roots done. Because my insurance company won't pay for it. So sometimes a little tough love is in order. I mean, we've all been to either a teacher or a tutor who is even just a few sessions a year make a profound impact on how we play an instrument or how we speak in speech and debate or whatever you're passionate about. And you can do the same thing with naturopathic medicine. You can go to, you know, initial visit, I mean, depending on what kind of chronic illness or acute illness you're dealing with. But you can learn so much about lifestyle and how to strengthen your body systems in just a few visits that if everyone just prioritized that, then that's all they would really need, I think.
- [13:50]
A
Foreign. These blood work companies are often lying about the price. I keep seeing people say, oh, it's only $30 a month. No, that is not actually what you're going to pay. Here's what happens. You sign up, Great. Then you need your blood drawn. Well, that's extra. You want to talk to a human about your results, that's another fee. You need supplements, separate purchase. You need real treatment, like hormones or peptides. Sorry, not available. Go find another doctor and then pay again. So that cheap membership that you guys are thinking about doing for getting your biomarkers tested and all of your blood work actually turns into this expensive scavenger hunt where nothing connects. So this is why I switched to Jevity. Unlike a lot of these other testing companies like Function Health or other ones that are super popular, Jevotee is not only going to give you all of the answers in your blood work, they have an entire team to go through your blood work with you and then come up with plans, right? Like, okay, based on your blood work, what supplements would we recommend? What nutrition goals should we set? What lifestyle goals should we set? Nobody else is doing that. So with Jevity, the price is the price. You get comprehensive blood work, over 90 biomarkers tested, a personalized longevity blueprint that actually explains what's going on. You get provider visits included, a care team that you can message, supplements, peptides, hormone support, all managed in one place based on your labs, and they retest every six months to actually adjust your plan. That's the difference. It's not just testing. It is testing, explanation and actual action. And if you've already wasted money somewhere else and you're sitting on labs that you don't understand, Jev just launched a free tier. Now, this is important. Listen to me. You can upload your results from previous blood work that you've gotten done that you have no idea how to understand without paying anything on gody.com and they will tell you what it means. Goy.com this is all free. You can use code Alex. Okay gody.com code Alex. We're all willing to forgive when a 15 year old's foundation doesn't quite match, you know, orange necks, wrong undertones. We've all been there, so we feel for her. But by the time you're 30, it's more than a little cringe. And honestly, most of the time it's not user error, it's that the makeup itself just isn't working with your skin. That's why I love Adele Natural Cosmetics cosmetics. Their moisturizing foundation is their top rated product for a reason. It evens out your skin tone while still looking like your skin. It genuinely feels like you're wearing nothing at all. But with this really beautiful natural finish. And if you've ever struggled to find your exact shade, Adele offers a complimentary color matching service. So you just email customer service. They're going to help find your match and if it isn't perfect when you get it, they're going to send you a new one for free. No stress, no guessing. Everything is handcrafted in small batches in Central Texas, made with clean, nourishing ingredients and rooted in the belief that beauty comes from the heart, not harsh chemicals. If you're ready for makeup that actually matches your grown woman skin, use code Alex for 25% off your first order@adele natural cosmetics.com. if you are Hillary Clinton, we can find a foundation that matches your grown lizard woman skin. That's Adele natural cosmetics.com code Alex for 25% off your first order. Do you think that the mantra trust your doctor is dangerous?
- [16:58]
B
Absolutely. I mean, you should never have blind trust for anything. Because when, when you have someone trust your doctor, then you're saying, don't listen to your gut, don't listen to your body. Because we all know when something's off. We know before our doctors do. And oftentimes doctors are so busy that they dismiss it for stress. I'm sure you've had, you know, heard stories like this. You've had people on your show who've had situations like this. And so you should never blindly trust anything. You need to be your own health advocate and you need to seek out a doctor who is going to allow you to advocate, allow you to ask questions and someone who's really going to listen and try to dig deeper. It's like being an investigate you know, investigator of your health.
- [17:45]
A
Now this is interesting to me. You're not a naturopath, right?
- [17:47]
B
I'm not, no.
- [17:48]
A
So this is what's fascinating. You're like, you're not a naturopathic doctor. I've had some on my show for sure. So I've had naturopaths on. But you're not a naturopath, however, you're like press secretary of naturopathic doctors. So how did you get in this, like, role as spokesperson for naturopathic doctors if you're not a doctor?
- [18:04]
B
Well, after I found a naturopathic doctor and had a team of naturopathic doctors, I became like evangelical about it. So then I married a naturopathic student, and after he graduated, he was a chiropractor first. And then after he graduated, I noticed that he got these journals that were about everything except for naturopathic medicine. So I said, somebody has to do this. I went to different organizations who at the time just didn't have the bandwidth or the time to do it. So I just said, I'm going to do it. So I reached out to naturopathic doctors all across North America and I invited them to submit their best cases, their most difficult cases, and I started publishing them. And it was just the reason that I wanted someone else to understand that there were other options out there. So it didn't. I didn't set off to create like a business or anything. I just wanted to have other people learn it. And if somebody else isn't going to do it, then I thought, why not me? 21 years later, the Journal of Applied Natural Medicine now serves tens and tens of thousands of all sorts of practitioners who want to learn from patient cases. Because here's the problem with science today, I think, Alex, we put so much emphasis on these double blind, placebo controlled studies, and those are important, but the individual case report sort of gets disregarded as not important. But when you start looking at 1, 2, 3, 4, 21 years of how somebody treated migraine, how somebody treated endometriosis, how somebody treated just, you know, the common cold, you start seeing patterns that emerge. But also no two patients are alike, even with the same symptoms. And so, so we've kind of got this cult following over the years as a place where clinicians whose patients are demanding alternatives, or for doctors who just want a little bit more insight, and it just sort of grew organically.
- [20:00]
A
What is the difference between a functional medicine doctor and a naturopathic doctor?
- [20:04]
B
Okay, so a functional medicine doctor is a doctor who goes through a Certificate, some certification courses, to become certified as a functional medicine practitioner. So there are a lot of similarities in the fact that they believe to look at the root cause of care. And a naturopathic physician has the entire four years of really diving deep into the biochemistry of nutrition, drug herb interactions. For instance, like John Hopkins Medical School, you get like three weeks of endocrinology, where like Bastyr, you get 10 weeks of endocrinology. There's just a little bit more of that didactic understanding and reasoning. So functional medicine doctors are sort of like those doctors who, they didn't go to naturopathic school, but they see that there's a better way. And I call some of them my greatest friends. And it's just a different. The also functional medicine doesn't have the same philosophy of what's called the therapeutic order. First you find out what are the obstacles to cure, we call it. Then you strengthen the body systems. Then you look at physical medicine, maybe posture, sleep, movement, things like that. Then you start looking at like herbs, homeopathy, other indigenous herbal medications, biochemical supplement protocols. And then after that, only then do you look at maybe, you know, more like pharmaceutical drugs. So there's a very specific step by step process that naturopathic doctors use. And some functional medicine doctors do that and some don't.
- [21:36]
A
If I walk into a conventional doctor's office versus a naturopath's doctor office with the exact same symptoms, what actually happens differently in those two rooms, step by step?
- [21:49]
B
Well, when you walk into the conventional medical doctor's office, you're probably going to be greeted by a medical assistant who's going to say like, what are your top complaints? And the doctor will come in and they'll ask you some questions, type on the computer. They have a lot of paperwork they have to do to make sure they cya basically and then they'll decide like, okay, maybe we'll change this medication or add this medication. There's not often a lot of actual physical exam. Palpation, looking at the tongue, looking at pulses, looking in the eyes, asking questions. How are you sleeping, how are you urinating? I mean, if you go to like a GI doctor, they might ask you about your digestion. But a naturopathic doctor, even if you're coming for your skin, they're going to ask you about your digestion. So when you go to a naturopathic doctor, they're not going to so much focus on just what your symptoms are. They're going to focus on who are you, how did you get here, what have you been exposed to, where do you live? Where did you grow up? What types of jobs have you had? Maybe you've worked in restaurants, a factory. You know, there's different things that you can be exposed to in those ways and you'll have a really thorough history. But you don't just write out a form that gets stuck in a computer. And maybe someone reads it, maybe they don't. Right. That might come out later on if there's like a problem. They actually read through it just as if an attorney is going to go through the discovery to help you in a case. I think there's a lot of similarities there with a naturopathic doctor. So they're going to really sit down and listen sometimes, like if it's like, if a mother, they'll want to see the children as well. Or sometimes families come in together because sometimes families, they'll find patterns there, like, oh, well, everybody's having these symptoms. Let's look at, is there a mold in the home, Is there something wrong with the water supply or, or something like that. Maybe there's a pet that is exposing the family to something. So it's just deeper. And again, I'm not trying to sound like I'm against regular medicine. I just, I think the, the doctors have a real heart, especially these days. There's a lot of doctors waking up and really wanting to fight back against the system that constrains them. But you really have a completely different experience as far as discovery of who you are, where you've been and what you're experiencing.
- [24:02]
A
What is the biggest misunderstanding about naturopathic medicine? Is it that it's anti drug, Is it that it's anti science, or is it something else entirely?
- [24:11]
B
The biggest misconception is that it's anti science. And this was something that the AMA started as far back as the 1800s, and then again in 1957. They actually criminalized medical doctors from associating with what they call quackery, which was naturopathic homeopathic midwifery and herbal medicine. It was actually like they, they were in trouble if they did something like that. It was a systemic and intentional basically campaign smear campaign against any field of medicine that, that goes against this. And that started back with the Flexner Report, which I'm hoping that we get a chance to speak about.
- [25:01]
A
I'm packing for a road trip and I'm throwing in comfy clothes, underwear, the usual. And it hits me. We are literally living in these clothes like 24, 7 contact with our skin. Right. And your Skin isn't just a barrier. It absorbs what you put on it. There are studies showing certain chemic used in synthetic fabrics can be absorbed through the skin and even disrupt hormones, leading to things like infertility. And this one stopped me in my tracks. There was research where dogs wearing polyester underwear had a significant drop in fertility, even becoming sterile. So what we wear matters. That's why I've been loving Q for Quinn. They're rethinking the basics that you wear every single day. Bras, underwear, socks. But doing it in a way that's actually better for your body. Everything is made with Gotz certified organic cotton. We know from my episode with Hannah Denning, right. That the best certified organic cotton is the best of the best creme de la creme. So Q for Quinn, undergarments and other clothing has no hormone disrupting chemicals, no weird synthetic blends. Their founder, Melita actually started the company because she couldn't find organic cotton socks for her son with eczema. And now they've built this entire line of insanely soft breathable essentials for the whole family. They even have undyed options. So Q for Quinn is fabric in its most natural state. Or plant dyed pieces if you still want color without harsh chemicals. And their pointelle lingerie. It's that perfect mix of feminine and breathable with without relying on synthetics. 100 organic cotton underwear doesn't have to be boring. Use code Alex for 15 off your non toxic basics for the whole family at Q4quinn.com that's code Alex for 15 off 100 organic underwear and more for the whole family at Qforquin.com you ever have cramps so bad you start inventing your own cuss words. Like not even real ones. You're just in bed. Like Sackajawea, Abraham Lincoln shin bones. You sound like a haunted history textbook. And you know, that's when I realized maybe I need help. Not emotional help, because that ship has sailed. I mean physical help. One of my all time favorite period hacks comes from Primally Pure, actually clean skincare that isn't going to gaslight you with natural ish ingredients. Primly Pure Cycle soothing spray is for when your uterus declares war and you're a civilian caught in the crossfire. It's made with things like magnesium and essential oils. Stuff that actually helps your body calm down. You spray it on your lower abdomen and it's like your body goes, okay, we're still mad, but open to negotiations. And that's all we can ask for, is Women, right? And I love primly pure's tallow balms too, because apparently your skin thrives when you stop feeding it chemicals and start giving it real nourishment. Who knew? Not big lotion. This is the kind of stuff that you give your friends when you actually like them for a little gift. You know what I mean? Either thinking of you birthday, what have you. Primally pure bundles are toxin free, intentional, ready to wrap, like a personality trait, not a last minute mistake. Use code Alex Clark to get 15 off your primary Pure purchase. That's Primly Pure dot com. Use code Alex Clark for 15% off. Primally Pure dot com code Alex Clark for 15 off. Try that cycle soothing spray and then you don't have to keep screaming Sackajawea into the void once a month. Would you personally trust a standard hospital for a serious diagnosis?
- [28:07]
B
There are standard conventional doctors who will fight for you for the diagnosis if it's a difficult one or if it's something unusual, difficult to diagnose most, but for the most part they're busy and they'll either refer you out or they'll send you to the psychiatrist.
- [28:24]
A
When did people start using naturopaths?
- [28:27]
B
Okay, so this is a really fascinating history. So there's two groups of doctors who sort of brought us to where naturopathic medicine is today. One was from the European vitalism or nature cure field. And this was a direct backlash against the heroic medicine of the 1700s to the 1800s. Alex, that was lead laudanum, which is like opiates. That was mercury, which was called calomel, which was the most prescribed medication between the 1700s to the mid to late 1800s. It's like a mercury salt, basically, and also caustic topicals that would cause you to blister and the bloodletting. So what was happening during that time is that these, these drugs were so widely used that it's what killed our president, George Washington. He had ridden all night long in the cold and he woke up one morning in I think 1799 with a sore throat and had trouble speaking swallowing. So we had four of the most prestigious doctors come in. They drained within a 12 hour period, 40%, this is all in historical documents, 40% of his blood supply. And they gave him calomel every hour. They basically poisoned him to death with mercury. One of his physicians basically said, wait, we're, we shouldn't be doing this. And they just admonished that physician. Interestingly enough, in like 1860s, there was a colonel, an army surgeon general, named Dr. Hammond. And he was court martialed, Alex, because he decided that so many soldiers were dying from the mercury from the calomel that he took it off their formulary. And even back then, the institutions were, were so strong and that was the best medicine money could buy. That was the science. He was court martialed for it. It's absolutely outrageous. So naturopathic medicine was a backlash from that movement. So there was a doctor named Father Sebastian Knipe and he cured his own tuberculosis using basically like the Wim Hof method type. You know, like hot and cold compresses, hydrotherapy, sunlight. And there was a young man named Benedict Lust, who a doctor basically told him, go home and die. I can't cure your tb. He went back to Germany, was cured, and Father Knipes sent him back to New York and said, said, go help Americans with this. So he opened up the first health food store ever. It was in New York. It was called the NYPE Store. Then he got a medical degree, an osteopathic degree, studied homeopathy and chiropractic, and he started the first school of naturopathic medicine. So it was an eclectic education that comes from the word eclogo, which means to choose from the best of everything, choose what's best for the patient. So at one time we had 160 medical schools in the United States, and more than 20 of those were naturopathic medical schools. Back in that time, there were 40,000 naturopaths in the United States. And to put that in perspective, there were 70,000 members of the AMA. So there was a lot of open market for patients to choose. And it was really thriving. It was like the golden age. Then comes along. Standard Oil goes into business with some German chemical companies, one of whom went on to create Zyklon B that was used during the Holocaust, actually.
- [32:12]
A
Who are you talking about?
- [32:13]
B
Farben or Ferber? I, it's. I can send that to you, but it's Furben or Farber. So this is in all historical documents. So they realized that you could take these byproducts from feedstock and you could create these patent medicines. And it became wildly popular. You can still find antique medicine bottles that say patent medicine. That was like all the rage. It's so cool. This is patentable. And so people are making a lot of money doing that. Standard Oil had such a monopoly on coal oil feedstocks that they did. And this isn't conspiracy. There's like the documents and the business contracts that they work together. And then they put together $160 million to basically redo education. Now, at that time, the pharmaceutical industry was really all minerals and herbals like Elaine.
- [33:10]
A
Right. Because this is what I wanted to ask you was how did we get to this place where pharmaceutical medicine is the default and natural, low cost, most herbal interventions are considered anti science?
- [33:24]
B
Well, and that's such a great question because what happened was all pharmaceutical, all pharmacists were compounders. You would go to the pharmacy, they would compound the medicine for you. And companies like Eli Lilly, another, I'm forgetting the name, that's now a subsidiary of Pfizer, they would send expeditions to the West Indies, to the Middle east, to Native American tribes, and they would find medicines, historical medicines, and that was what pharmacy was. Well, then when this whole marriage between Standard Oil and the chemical companies came together, they put together a report called the Flexner Report, where they decided, okay, we are going to put all this money into education and only the schools that abide by our patent medicine type pharmaceutical are going to get funding. So chiropractic schools, eclectic medicine schools, midwifery degrees, they, they didn't get any of the funding. And then by the time Fleck, which by the way, Flexner, who did this report, he was a school teacher, he had no medical training. So they shut all these schools shut down, except for just a few of them.
- [34:36]
A
Why did he write that?
- [34:37]
B
Because he was paid to do so. He was the.
- [34:39]
A
By who?
- [34:40]
B
By Standard Oil.
- [34:42]
A
And who was running Standard Oil?
- [34:44]
B
Rockefeller.
- [34:45]
A
So he has no medical background. He's saying, hey, we've really got to stick with this standard of care. We're not going to give you any money. And everybody just folded.
- [34:52]
B
Yes. And by the way, the naturopathic and the eclectic schools were the first schools that allowed black Americans to go to medical school and women to go to medical school. So a lot of those opportunities shut down. And then it just. They started writing papers that were only funded, the research was only funded if you abided by this new way of medicine. And then they had this commission on quackery. That's literally what they called it during that day where it was just a smear to malign any other type of medicine. And still today you'll run into people who are just. That's just the way their brain has been trained. There's so many people that think that there's no science to these other ways of medicine. Even though our bodies are so biocompatible with the sun, with food, with herbs. Herbs. And yet it's still just, it's called quackery. They just basically maligned a whole generation of physicians. And the thing that's so terrible about it is that I don't mind if, if there, if heroic medicine exists, pharmaceutical medicine, but let the market decide, let patients decide what kind of medicine, what kind of doctors they want to see, and let doctors decide what they want to learn. Do you think it's fair for a doctor to go to school like Johns Hopkins or Harvard and not get many hours of biochemistry and nutritional therapy? It's just, it's not fair to the doctor either.
- [36:19]
A
If revenue is tied to interventions in conventional medicine and not prevention, how does that shape what actually happens to patients in the exam room?
- [36:31]
B
Well, the doctors in conventional medical school, they learn pharmacology mostly from drug reps. They learn about new pharmacological treatments from drug reps because there is that incentive to sell the drug. And so this is. Doctors are busy and they want to help patients, and this is what they're taught. They're not exposed to the other. And so I think that everything is obviously driven by the commercial market. But, you know, one in three patients, whether they tell their doctor or not, have tried some sort of, what's called cam, complementary and alternative medicine, whether that's like dietary therapy, supplements, even yoga, acupuncture. But some patients feel like they can't even talk to their doctor about it because they'll just be laughed at or brushed off. And you usually see those people, like, anonymously in the comment section, right? Yeah,
- [37:26]
A
I used to babysit these kids. Horrible kids, like, deeply unwell. I mean, first of all, their behavior was awful. Screaming, negotiating, like tiny lawyers. But also they just had sticky hands. And that, like, makes it 10 times worse. And the parents would be like, well, we only feed them organic snacks. Yeah, organic what?
- [37:42]
B
Glue?
- [37:43]
A
Because these kids were bouncing off the walls like they just did a line of pixie sticks. I'm reading ingredient labels like, what is this? 47 ingredients. Half of them sound like pharmaceutical side effects. This is the problem with snacks, okay? And I'm saying that in quotes. They're either junk or they pretend to be healthy, but they're still garbage. This is why I love Paleo Valley beef sticks. And if I could go back in time, you know, 15 years ago when I was like a teenager babysitting, this is what I would have brought them. These are 100% grass fed, grass finished beef raised on real pastures, regenerative, not in some dystopian feedlot situation. They're naturally fermented, which is so rare. You are not getting all of the preservatives and weird chemicals that are in basically every other meat stick. This is such a unique beef stick, it tastes completely different than any other jerky or beef stick that you've ever had. Trust me, you think that all bee sticks are the same until you've had Paleo Valley. This is the best tasting one on the market. They've got flavors like jalapeno garlic, summer sausage, cherry teriyaki. So you're not suffering, you're enjoying your life. And this is the kind of snack that you can actually give kids or yourself without feeling like you've made a terrible decision. Because you eat this and then you feel normal, stable, not like you need to be monitored. Head to paleovalley.com use code ALEX for 15 off your first order. That's paleovalley.com code ALEX for 15 off see if you can guess what movies these famous quotes are from. Here's to looking at you kid. You can't handle the truth.
- [39:04]
B
Truth.
- [39:05]
A
May the force be with you. You like jazz? If you guessed Casablanca, A Few Good Men, Star wars, and unfortunately B movie. Congratulations. You were raised by cinema and cable television. I question your taste on that last one, but it fits because we're talking bees. I've been swapping out the chemical warfare section of my medicine cabinet for Beekeepers Naturals, which is a health and wellness company reinventing the pharmacy aisle without the neon dyes and mystery lab ingredients. Ingredients. Their Propolis throat spray. I use it daily even when I'm not sick, and one sells in the US every 12 seconds. It's one of the most popular wellness products of all time for a reason. Propolis is what bees use to protect their hive from germs. For us, it supports the immune system with over 300 antioxidants and bioactive compounds and defends against germs on the spot. When my throat feels even slightly scratchy, I reach for that Propolis throat soother. It's got slippery elm and menthol so it cools instantly. Immediate relief. It is the best throat lozenge. Way better for me than my summer of smoking Camel Menthol number nines. My soft More ear because I thought that was cool. Yikes. We've all had a journey of how we ended up here, don't we? I'm also taking the Beekeepers Naturals Propolis vitamin C liposomal packets. They have 1000mg of bioavailable vitamin C plus propolis for supercharged immune support. Best thing to take before traveling or if you start to feel sickness. Also my skin looks really good. These are real, non toxic and completely all natural health solutions that work. Go to beekeepers naturals.com and use code Alex Clark for 20% off your order. That's beekeepers naturals.com code Alex Clark for 20% off. They also have cough medicine made with honey. Oh my gosh. Their products are incredible. It's why they are one of the best selling wellness brands of all time. You can find them at Target, Whole Foods, Walmart, Amazon, CVS and Walgreens. But you can only get a discount on their website beekeepers naturals.com code Alex Clark. You'll spend eighteen hundred dollars on European linen sheets. Hannah, you'll sage your house. Erica, you've got the beige aesthetic. Britney, the boucle chair. Whitney, the little diffuser misting eucalypt. You live in a Nancy Myers movie. Rebecca. And then under the sink a glowing lineup of chemical warfare. Your house looks like heaven on Instagram. Reality, it's a hormone dungeon. Synthetic fragrances, endocrine disruptors, mystery chemicals and sprays, wipes, detergents. We wonder why little girls are starting puberty at 9 years old. 9. Personal care products, cleaning products, plastics, ultr, processed food. We've turned our homes into lowgrade science experiments. And that is why I switched to branch based basics. And I have gifted it to everybody that I care about. Anyone that I haven't gifted it to. I guess you're finding out now that I don't really like you. Their premium starter kit replaces basically everything with one plant and mineral based concentrate. Everything under your zinc gone. No synthetic fragrance, no harsh chemicals. Branch Basics works. I use it on counters, bathrooms as windshield wiper fluid. You could literally clean your butt with it. Carpet cleaner, upholstery, cleaner, laundry, even wash your produce. One concentrate. Simple, simplifies everything and it is safe for kids, pets, the whole family. And here's the wild part. It is very cost effective. Arguably way less than you're spending right now on cleaning products. Each bottle averages out to like $2.13. So you're not paying more to just poison your air. If you're going to curate your home like it's a luxury retreat, maybe don't gas the occupants. Make this year the year that you say goodbye to toxic products. Branch Basics. Have I convinced you yet? I sure hope so. Right now, anybody who listens to my show off the premium starter kit by using code ALEX15@ branch basics.com that's 15 off your new Branch Basics premium starter kit at branch basics.com with promo code ALEX15 again branch basics.com promo code ALEX15 for 15 off. Make 2026 your cleanest, healthiest year yet. With Branch Basics. How do insurance reimbursement rules end up deciding what's considered standard of care, even if that's not the best option?
- [43:06]
B
Well, let's say a doctor sees a patient and they want to prescribe a certain therapy or do a certain procedure or even, you know, prescribe a certain medication. If the insurance doesn't cover it, then the doctor can't write for it or prescribe it because unless the patient's willing to pay out of pocket, which you can't really do if you're going to a doctor that's within that model, those are really the only options available.
- [43:34]
A
Is it realistically possible to practice true root cause medicine inside the current insurance and reimbursement framework?
- [43:42]
B
I don't believe so. I just have to be honest. I don't believe so many people are trying. And God bless them, I hope they find a way to make it work. Because I think every patient should have the opportunity to at least look at some methods of prevention and nutrition. Because that's who we are, right? We're natural. You can't put diesel gas in a regular engine. Right? And I think people are trying, but the way they either look at it is some kind of group model which doesn't always work, or time. A shorter office visit and you can do some subsequent quick follow ups, but you really need the first few office visits. With real root cause medicine, real naturopathic medicine, functional medicine, integrative medicine, you really need that time with the patient.
- [44:24]
A
Why does paying cash for a doctor fundamentally change the type of care a patient receives compared to going through insurance?
- [44:30]
B
Well, because the doctors, no matter what type of school they go to, it's very expensive. If you treat a patient naturopathically or integratively, you can't get reimbursed for that time. You just, you can only see, what, seven patients a day, eight patients a day, if you're spending 45 minutes to an hour with a patient. So if you aren't getting reimbursed for that, how can you even stay in bed? Business. So it's just like any other profession. I think that you would hire a tutor for your child to learn how to play the violin or to get into law school, or an attorney to help you through, you know, fighting your HOA on something. You know, I think that, that you're hiring a professional who, when you pay them directly Their only responsibility is directly to you and what's best for you. And there's nothing getting in that marriage between you and the doctor.
- [45:20]
A
Doctor, I was talking to somebody recently about this. So. So we're seeing like the populist movement that Trump really created in 2015. I think we're seeing a massive nosedive on that movement. Like people feel like it's over, industry is back, corporations are rigging the system again. You know, you're seeing this like disinterest in politics completely. They feel like every single site is bought and paid for. I personally blame the botch on Epstein for this. I think the Iran war stuff is lot of people off. And then I think, I think a lot of the pesticide glyphosate stuff is another thing, is at least with the MAHA space, that's really making people upset. And so, you know, the vibe shift I think is palpable of people just saying, I give up, I'm over this. And so I know my audience is going to like to hear this. But what I predict, what I see is 2028 and beyond. I think we're going to swing the other way now and naturally we're going to elect some extreme socialist like aoc. I don't want that to happen. I'm a die hard conservative. If you're new to the show, I'm openly conservative. That Turning Point USA produces the show. Okay, So I don't want that. But I think one thing is when it comes to medicine and this huge movement with MAHA and kind of getting out of the conventional matrix is people are like, well, why not just try socialist healthcare?
- [46:44]
B
Oh, wow.
- [46:45]
A
And so I just want to hear your thoughts on that is because as a conservative, I think you're probably noticing the same vibe shift as me. You're a MAHA mom. You're also very heavily in the health space. I mean, do you see what I'm seeing where people are going to say, you know, screw it, let's just embrace what AOC wants to bring to the table?
- [47:03]
B
I agree with you. I think people are seeing money spent either on things that don't matter to them or not being spent on the things that do matter to them, like the pesticides, like reforming health. And I think because of that, people are becoming very disaffected. However, socialized medicine is not the answer. With socialized medicine, you still don't get the one on one care. The money is just coming from the government in just a different way. And doctors are still going to be forced to see, you know, six Patients per hour. That's what they have to do right now. It's still going to be bloated because whenever the government gets some socializes anything. I mean, look at, at student loans. You know, the way the student loans have made college so expensive, I think that it will be an absolute disaster. The only real way is to have true freedom where the market can decide and then costs come down. If everyone just had the opportunity to choose whatever kind of healthcare they wanted, the costs would go down.
- [48:10]
A
If naturopathic doctors are trained in diagnostics and pharmacology, what is the real reason that they're still restricted in so many states?
- [48:20]
B
I'm not, it's not, it's competition and it's not coming from the doctors. Your average MD isn't trying to thwart naturopathic doctors, but it's the lobbying organizations. So the lobbying organizations, in my estimation, in my opinion, they pretend to be on the side of the doctors and lobbying for what they want, but really they're lobbying for what the special interests want.
- [48:41]
A
Sure. And who are some of these groups?
- [48:42]
B
Groups like the American Medical association in every state. And then, you know, so for instance in Florida, naturopathic medicine has been illegal since the 50s.
- [48:53]
A
Governor DeSantis, hello.
- [48:56]
B
So the good news is, is the bill did pass the house and the Senate and we are waiting for Governor DeSantis to sign it. However, the AMA there, the state, because medicine's all licensed at the state level. A lot of people don't know this because the AMA is so powerful in so many places, but it's all at the state level. So they are lobbying so hard to prevent that bill from being signed into law. And there's other states that have tried so hard, like Texas, that's another one that's really hard to. We're only. Naturopathic medicine is only licensed in like 26 states and jurisdictions. I mean competition is a good thing. But look, a patient is going to choose what they want want regardless. So I just think it's never a good thing to stop somebody from doing what they, what they want to do with their own body.
- [49:43]
A
That's true freedom. That's true freedom.
- [49:45]
B
Absolutely.
- [49:46]
A
What will we have to change in medical education for physicians to feel competent leading with non pharmaceutical interventions instead of defaulting to prescriptions.
- [49:55]
B
All the curriculum would have to be completely reformed because again, you go to Harvard Medical School, for instance, or you go to Johns Hopkins, you're getting about 1.5, 1.6 years of classroom education on, you know, pharmacology, cardiology, all of the different body systems, and then you're just thrown into this clinical shift situation where it's. The one good thing is you're seeing a lot of different sick people, but you're following a doctor who's just quickly going through, okay, the chart. How are you doing? You need this, you don't need that. And they aren't really able to learn the deeper systems and the determinants of health that we've talked about. So I believe it would have to be completely overhauled. They'd need a lot more nutrition and biochemistry, and they would have to study more about how herbs and drugs interact so they would feel confident prescribing them, and I think would also have to be the larger associations taking the taboo away. Because a lot of doctors are just afraid of being ostracized if they speak out or out of a job. Job.
- [51:02]
A
So my dad died from glioblastoma. And I tweeted about how when my dad was in the hospital the night before brain tumor surgery, the hospital was giving him orange Fanta during treatment. And I was upset. I. I asked the nurse, like, hey, should we maybe be giving my dad water before he has surgery in the morning instead of pop? And she was like, oh, yeah, sure, that's a great idea. And so they. They stopped giving him pop and then gave him water. I'm from Indiana, so I say pop. So. So when I tweeted about that, I got immense backlash. This went crazy viral. And everybody in the comments were like, you know, I was. Everybody in the comments was saying that I was super cruel for questioning this, that if they were my dad, they'd want to die, too. If they had a daughter that was taking away his orange soda. And by the way, and I would agree with them, let's say he had 24 hours to live or something, then, yeah, it doesn't matter if he's drinking soda, it's imminent. Like, he's going to die. At that point, we didn't know how much time we had. We wanted to go in and remove the brain tumor, and then, you know, maybe we could have five years, I don't know. But I understood that food and drink can increase inflammation in the body. Sugar increases inflammation, obviously, food dyes, all of these problematic ingredients. High fructose corn syrup, which is fake chemical sugar. So I didn't want him drinking that before he was going under the knife. And we're trying to buy time for him. So, yeah, we knew he was dying, but we didn't know how much time. So I was just trying to buy if I could get three more months, if I could get six more months, another year. That was our goal as a family. Okay? So everybody was tweeting like, I don't know anything. I'm talking about, this is, you know, this is the most cruel thing that a, that a child could do to their dying parent. So I just want to hear from you. Why are we as a country normalizing ultra processed food and sugar when it comes to cancer care at all?
- [52:56]
B
I wish I had the answer to it. Of course. Course, cancer cells replicate faster than any other cells. They take up the sugar faster. I mean, there's a type of chemotherapy that's, that's potentiated by sugar because it helps it get into the, the cell. So that is. I'm so sorry you went through that. But I think it's all just commercial. People are addicted because there are substances in there. They are engineered to be addictive. People want to cling to their addictions, right? And they want to bring you down with them. So rather than like shaking saying, like, you know, I want a better way for myself, they'll try to bring other people down with them. I think that's one of the psychology, some of the psychology that's going on behind it. Also, people for just decades now have been just brainwashed, sadly, by, you know, 30 second commercial breaks, you know, every 10 minutes. I don't watch TV, so I don't know what it is anymore. But just kind of telling them about, like, how wonderful and how great you're going to feel and how fun and sexy it is to eat or drink, drink this. And so I think people just aren't taught to listen to their own bodies. Kids aren't taught anything about how their body works. Children don't know, like I taught my kids the three Little Pigs of health. I said, your body can either be made out of straw, sticks or bricks, just like the three Little pigs. And when a germ or, you know, a situation comes around, an illness, that's the big bad wolf. When that big bad wolf huffs and puffs to blow your house down, do you want your house, your body to be made out of the straw, the sticks or the bricks? And I think it's a good analogy even for adults. What you put into your body, you know, you masticate it, it starts to get. Break. Broken down. It goes through your digestive tract and then it goes into your bloodstream. And that becomes the building block for every cell in your body. I mean, you want like a smooth forehead Nice hair, a pretty smile, nice teeth, teeth, strong muscles. Then you need to think about what are the building blocks.
- [54:56]
A
You need a strong immune system.
- [54:57]
B
Yes.
- [54:57]
A
And all of those things, your skin, your hair, your nails, your susceptibility to chronic disease, it is all determined by how strong or weak your immune system is. And what is weakening our immune systems? Inflammation. What is causing inflammation? It's what we're eating. People miss. This food is medicine. It is either killing you or it is healing you. And you have a choice three times a day, day. And even in between that of what you're going to be fueling your body with. And yeah, it's lost on people. I wish that we had for critical care situations, I wish that we had naturopathic hospitals with real bed linens, healing bed linens. Right. With natural fibers that, you know, didn't have fluorescent awful lighting that incorporated real sun time outside for patients and was using natural remedies and things like that. If I was a billionaire, I would be inventing.
- [55:51]
B
I hope you get to do it soon.
- [55:54]
A
We need somebody to do that.
- [55:55]
B
Oh my gosh.
- [55:56]
A
You know, when people in the Victorian era or whatever were like, my doctor told me I had to go to the seaside to heal for the sun and the sea and the ocean, that had to have been a naturopath, right?
- [56:06]
B
I know, yes. I mean, there were sanitariums where they did all that. They had baths where it's like hot and cold water to help your circulation. But you mentioned inflammation. I want to say something that's even unique about naturopathic medicine's view of inflammation. Inflammation, because a lot of even more integrative medicine will agree with you. Inflammation is the cause. But let's look at what is inflammation. Inflammation is your body mounting a response to start to heal tissue or bring waste away from, you know, toxic toxins so that your body can heal itself. Well, when inflammation is actually part of that process, that helps heal you. But what's underneath? Why is the inflammation not able to be successful? Why is the inflammation not able to resolve itself? Your, your joint should get inflamed because maybe you were, you know, maybe you were had some pesticide exposure. Maybe your joints feel inflamed because your body is sending the troops to that area to help clean it up, to help heal it. But then when you keep having these exposures or damage is done at the DNA level, that inflammation, it just doesn't stop. It keeps going. It keeps going and it's not able to be successful. So it's important to even look at past the inflammation. Inflammation is like the light going on in your red light going on in your car and it's the troops going in to help rebuild or to heal that tissue. But when your body is damaged from these compounds, from toxins, from stress, from artificial light, from not ever grounding on the earth birth, then the inflammation isn't able to resolve the issue. And that is where we get chronic disease.
- [57:49]
A
That is such a nugget, a golden nugget of wisdom. Right? There are all naturopathic doctors the same.
- [57:57]
B
No, there is a spectrum, just like there is in the general public. They all are trained in that therapeutic order, right, that looks at the body's natural ability to heal and how to really put together a plan, plan that is intentionally along that order. The determinants to health strengthen the body and on and on up the chain. But just like anyone else, we have some naturopathic doctors that are a little bit more towards what we call like allopathic style. They're a little bit more integrative, some are more vitalists, where they really are the purists when it comes to natural healing and all the things like nutrition, you know, circulation, breath work, sleep, laughter, herbs, you know, so there is, there is a spectrum, but they all are trained in the philosophy and the, the extra nutrition and biochemistry. But some naturopaths are conservative and some are liberal and some are libertarian and there's a whole spectrum, but they do have that same philosophy.
- [58:59]
A
How do you find a good naturopath?
- [59:01]
B
Well, you could go to ndnr.com and you can find a doctor. That's the website for the Journal of Applied Natural Medicine Medicine. You can also go to your local state association. If you just. If you're in Florida, you could click Naturopathic Medicine in Florida for the Florida Naturopathic association and you can find members of that organization where you are.
- [59:23]
A
Where can people follow you on social media?
- [59:25]
B
Well, they can find me at Razzie Berry, or they could go to the Journal of Applied Natural Medicine and follow us there. You can also go to our website, ndnr.com that stands for Naturopathic Doctor News and Review. So that's like our main organization that we published the journal. But you can go there and you can search 21 years of archives of natural medicine case reports and you can find out if you went to a naturopathic doctor and you have hot flashes or you have, you know, chronic recurring ear infections. How have naturopathic doctors, you know, how have they treated that?
- [59:59]
A
Oh, neat.
- [60:00]
B
That's what your website does. Yeah. Cool.
- [60:03]
A
That's awesome.
- [60:03]
B
Thank you.
- [60:04]
A
I ask every guest this to wrap every interview. If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, physically, emotionally, emotionally or spiritually, what would it be?
- [60:13]
B
Definitely laughter. Laughter is the most important. I mean it. There's so many studies on how laughter can help strengthen your immune system, but I feel like when you laugh, you can think clearly, you can make good decisions, and you can just set your sight on what's really important.
- [60:33]
A
It has been such a treat interviewing you. You are so fascinating, so smart, so well spoken on this subject. Subject. Like I said, you are the press secretary for Naturopathic Medicine, so I was really nervous. So thanks for saying that. You did so well. I. I think this is such an important episode for my audience just to kind of talk about the nuances about, you know, how to find the right doctor for you. What is a naturopath? We haven't really done that yet on the show, so I'm so glad you came on. Thank you for coming on Culture Apothecary.
- [61:00]
B
Thank you so much. Alex.
- [61:05]
A
If this episode made you un uncomfortable, good. Because questioning the system that you've been told to blindly trust is uncomfortable, but it might also be necessary. The reality is most people don't start asking these questions until something goes wrong, until they're not getting better, until standard of care stops working. And by then the stakes oftentimes are a lot higher. New episodes come out every Monday and Thursday at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. Anywhere you get your podcast, please leave us a five star review on Apple or Spotify. If it's been a while or you never have, just let me know. What episode is the first that you send people when you want to introduce them to the podcast. It takes two seconds to do. It immensely helps the show and it helps us stay free. This content is for informational purposes only and is not intended to be taken as medical advice. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional regarding any questions or decisions related to your health or medical care. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.