← Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Culture Apothecary with Alex Clark
Why Your Wife Won’t Submit | Biblical Leadership with Owen Strachan
01:20:57
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- [00:00]
A
Relationship research tracked 2,000 couples. The couples who were radically honest had a 67% divorce rate. Those who kept a few more things to themselves had only a 19% divorce rate.
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B
You have to do a lot of forgiving, zipping your lip. You just go, we're going to let that one pass. You want the dynamic of the marriage to be anchored in grace.
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A
Just going to church doesn't save you just passively going and not becoming a member and not getting involved in serving in the church. You're not going to find that sense of community. So when you're like, I don't know, we go to church, but like, nobody cares about us, okay, well, what have you done?
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B
Men want a strong figure to follow because men want to be strong. And strong local churches should breed that kind of man. Foreign.
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A
What does it really mean to be a man after God's own heart in your home? Well, I don't know, obviously. But in a culture that either mocks masculinity or distorts it into domination, how do we return to biblical headship not as tyrants, but as sacrificial leaders? How can men lead their marriages with strength and tenderness, truth and grace, especially when life gets messy but emotions run high and expectations clash? Well, good thing I'm not the one talking the most in this episode. It is Dr. Owen Strand, theologian, professor and author of the War on Men. He's a voice that you may know from his bold takes on manhood, gender roles and gospel centered marriage. He serves as a research professor of theology at Grace Bible Theological Seminary, and he's been a leading figure in the complementarian movement for over a decade. In this conversation we talk about how men can lead as God commands to not through extreme patriarchy, not through passive silence, but through loving, Christlike headship. We'll dive into practical marriage dynamics, spiritual leadership, why respect matters to men, how Satan tempts couples with a transactional mindset on marriage, and even how to think biblically when culture distorts gender, marriage and authority. Also, how to become a spiritual leader if you haven't ever been one and don't know where to start. Whether your marriage is thriving, struggling, or just getting started, this conversation is for every man who wants to build his house on the rock. Watch this episode on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel or culture Apothecary on Spotify. This podcast is a free podcast, but you can really, really help us out by leaving a five star review and just letting us know what your favorite episode was, what the first episode you heard was, and why you keep coming back. Join the Keith Servitus Facebook group if you are a woman to discuss this show and meet like minded women walking through the similar seasons that you might be. And ask your husband to send this episode to his friends. Today's episode is brought to you by all new Jevy Studio. Please welcome theologian and author Owen Strand to culture Apothecary what discourages men from leading as God commands?
- [03:07]
B
All sorts of factors. We have our own indwelling sin that discourages us. And especially today, a major factor is our culture. For decades, men have had to navigate their way through a feminist culture and, and that's had a big effect on them. It's left a lot of men without direction, without an idea of what a man is. If you act in a traditionally masculine way in a lot of contexts, for example, you're in the penalty box and then there's not really a lot of ways back into the good graces of our culture once you get there. And so suffice it to say that a lot of men today are just down and out and they don't know how to find their way back into the the norm of society.
- [03:52]
A
What is your testimony?
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B
I was raised in a Christian home. I became a Christian when I was young, 9 or 10 years old. My father's a forester. My mom was a librarian in down east Maine, as they call it. It's the east part of Maine, near Bar Harbor. If you know Acadia national park, if you haven't been there, strong recommend.
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A
Okay. Just so you know, I haven't been to Maine yet and it is like my number one top place in the US I want to go.
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B
It is a fantastic place, Acadia. What I would recommend is since we're turning this into a travel show, Acadia national park and Bar Harbor. It's where Martha Stewart lives.
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A
Oh, yes.
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B
If that's good or bad, I don't know.
- [04:26]
A
Iconic. No, it's totally iconic.
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B
Okay, iconic. Even better. That's where she's from. And Bar harbor is basically national park ice cream town, seafood everywhere. You can hike, you can swim in the frigid main ocean. It's absolutely stunningly beautiful.
- [04:43]
A
Okay, so you grew up there and you were a Christian and then did you decide you wanted to become a pastor?
- [04:49]
B
Yeah, When I was 9 or 10, I went to Christian summer camp, which is a big thing in Maine. And I knew that I was a sinner. I knew that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and I knew I needed Jesus blood to cover all my sins. And so I placed my faith in Christ, repented of my sin. From that point on, I was a Christian, obviously. But being a Christian in small town Maine was not easy. Maine is kind of a burned over spiritual district. There's about 1.5% of the people up there that claim to be a Christian. So being in a public school, which I was, was rough, but it was great training ground for Christian faith in a fallen world. So, yeah, when I get to college at Bowdoin College in Brunswick, Maine, it's another very hostile environment. Princeton Review rated Bowdoin one of the least spiritual campuses in America in like 2000 or something. And it felt that way. There were only about 20 kids who would show up to the weekly university Christian meeting. And so that shaped me as well. And it was there that God called me into ministry. Ironically, you know, you're in this really secular environment. It's the kind of environment a lot of Christian parents, honestly, like myself, might even fear. Like, oh, I don't want my kid there. But it's a testimony to me of the faithfulness of God and the goodness of God and the power of God, because it was there that I just wanted to proclaim Christ to everyone I met. And I wanted to study the Bible and teach the Bible and God then got me into some different avenues to do that. And I ended up at Capitol Hill Baptist in Washington D.C. and trained to be a pastor and then went to Seminary in 2004.
- [06:21]
A
And so now where are you now?
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B
I'm actually back in Louisville, Kentucky.
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A
Okay.
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B
And I'm in ministry. I'm leading a new ministry called One Gospel that is basically a content resource site. So similar to in past days, Christianity Today or Gospel Coalition or something like that, articles, podcasts, videos and stuff like that to strengthen people in the gospel. Around the Gospel, there's a lot of fighting today. There's not a lot of unity in the church. We have to have some battles. We have to enter the fray at different points. But then at other times, you know, we gotta pump up our unity muscles. That's a weird thing to say, but we've, we've got to find unity in Christ and love one another. And so I'm trying to have this project, One Gospel. Do both of those ends unify around the Gospel. Take stands for the faith.
- [07:12]
A
What is the difference between loving self sacrificing headship and domineering rulership?
- [07:18]
B
Here's the thing, just before I define it, there's been a strong push to recover strong manhood in Christian circles as I'm Guessing your question is getting at. Great question again. And what that has meant for some young men is they're like, feminism is all terrible. I'm going the dead level opposite of that. And they end up, I would argue, in some domineering territory if they're not careful. A godly Christlike head does lead. He has authority in the home. He's the one with whom the buck stops. He makes decisions. He leads his wife spiritually, he leads his children spiritually. He's not going to be perfect in that by any stretch. I haven't been. But that's his goal. That's. That's his rudder. It's where it's pointed. I would say that a domineering husband gives his wife no voice in any of that. There's no back and forth, there's no conversation. You see, a godly head in the Bible views his wife, has to view his wife, I would argue, as his helper. We don't like the term helper today, but It's a Genesis 2 word is there in the Hebrew. God calls himself a helper. Later on in the Old Testament, for example, helper doesn't mean for the woman or for anyone else in the scripture. This person, you know, they can't really do anything except pass out Kool Aid, you know, at the water stand or something like that. We'll give them the job that, you know, no one else really wants to do. That's the opposite of what helper means. Helper in scripture means you are bringing strength to the table that other people don't have.
- [08:43]
A
Wow.
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B
That's why in Genesis 2, when God calls the woman Eve the helper, he's like putting a crown on her head. He's not calling her into the closet and saying, you've. You've got nothing to say in this marriage. This man over here, Adam, he's going to rule you and he's going to domineer you. You're kind of like a child. You're older than a child, but he's just going to run things, and you just smile and nod and do whatever he says. That's not what biblical complimentarity looks like. It looks like long answer. A loving husband, yes, Leading, but leading. Always conversing with his wife, getting her wisdom, getting her feedback, talking things out. You know, when they disagree, there's disagreements that come up. That's okay. And then making. Making a call and leading the family.
- [09:24]
A
Let me ask you what a husband should do in this scenario. So he's had a long day at work. He's exhausted, he's starving. He gets home, his wife doesn't greet him, she's exhausted, the house a wreck, the kids are screaming and dinner isn't even started. What should a godly man tell himself to bring clarity and calmness to that.
- [09:43]
B
Situation that's so relevant? Because as a provider, a godly man, a godly husband, head of home is seeking to be a leader, protector and provider. Those three major roles for men that we call men too. And I'm trying to train my 14 year old son in, in certain ways right now. It's easy to talk about those roles. It's harder to come home when you've been providing and now your brain is kind of soupy because you've been work and what you really want to do honestly is just kind of veg and maybe watch the basketball recording from last night or text your buddies or go on a walk or something. But instead what you need to do is enter that chaos in that fray. And so a lot of times as a man, you need to be praying in the car honestly that you will come home and you will lead. Well, your wife, if she's like mine and has been handling a lot with the kids and homeschooling duties and a thousand and one troubleshooting situations and people calling her and the never ending text threads that come up in life in 2025, she's got a lot on her mind. Now she's, now she's trying to cook dinner. I mean what women do on a daily basis, again, to call them helper is not demeaning them, it's saying they have so many skills that they bring to the table in the Christian home. And so what I want to do when I come in is I want to communicate love and steadiness and warmth and calm and honestly, frequently that means engaging my children. So sometimes that's pushing my youngest daughter on the swing, sometimes that is kicking the soccer ball around with my son, sometimes that is talking about science homework with my oldest daughter. There's a lot that plays in there, but I'm fundamentally coming in. Not like the king returning to claim his throne and tell everybody what to do. I'm trying to come in in a servant minded posture. There's a bad form of servant leadership out there where men don't actually lead and then they call themselves a servant leader and pat themselves on the back. That's not really good. But then there's a good form, a better form of servant leadership where you really do try to love your family as they need with a humble, gentle attitude as much as you can. And you try to set that tone and God works through that. And you know, Alex, you have some nights that go better than others. Sometimes the attitudes, you can't fix them. You know, you're not God. You learn as a parent very quickly. You learn that with babies, but you learn it with teens too. I got two in the teen years.
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A
I'm terrified of teenagers.
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B
It's a serious undertaking.
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A
Like I feel like. And I'm not, I'm not married with kids yet.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And so God willing, one day that happens. I always think like, okay, toddler years, little kids, like I feel so confident and just everything that I've tried to prepare for and learn. And I know you change as you become a parent in reality, but I'm like, I feel good about all those. And then I think about having a teenager and I'm like, I'm so nervous about that.
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B
Yeah, there's truth to that.
- [12:28]
A
You said that you're kind of working with your 14 year old son right now and training him up to be a godly leader in man. So like, what does that practically look like? What do those conversations look like with the teenage son?
- [12:38]
B
There's formal and informal discipleship with your son and with your daughters. Frankly, with my son, it's looking like us meeting together to discuss a chapter of the book disciplines for a godly Young man right now. And so we read six to eight pages in the book on our own, my son and I, and then we come together and we talk about it and I ask him questions and we work through, you know, the Bible passages involved in the chapter and he raises questions for me and there's stuff we've got to touch on and handle and it just provides us a really nice touch point as father and son to come together. It's not in the heat of things, it's not. Everyone's frustrated. I'm not trying to correct something he knows I know going in. We've got this opportunity to meet together, father and son. So that's formal. Then there's all sorts of informal stuff. I'm also his head basketball coach. For example, right now I have just begun a distinguished coaching career in the homeschool basketball world.
- [13:34]
A
That is a joke.
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B
And I am having lots of practice times with him. So we're in the car. So we're talking about different subjects. We're shooting the breeze about plays and which defense we want to run and. And sometimes I think conservative Christians can feel like they shouldn't have Too much of that and you shouldn't have too much fun. My strategy with my son, my mindset is I actually want to have a lot of fun with this kid. With all three of my kids, I want to fill up the enjoyment tank with them as much as I can. Not just so I can pragmatically drain it, you know, and I have to do correction or something. But I really want to connect really well with these kids and love them and give them a joyful home. So we shouldn't be scared. We don't have to be scared of those informal times as well. There's a lot of discipleship that happens when you're just driving to practice.
- [14:23]
A
Yeah.
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B
Chatting as you're watching a ball game or whatever.
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A
What are some questions that a man could ask himself to determine? Am I being a biblical leader in my home? Just like a self assessment?
- [14:33]
B
Am I first leading myself? Do I have a meaningful spiritual walk with Christ? So am I in the Word? Am I praying? Am I leading my family to go to church? Am I serving my church in some way? If my family were to honestly assess me, would they say, yeah, he models Christian faith. He's not perfect, but he does it. And then questions about those leader, protector, provider roles. Am I leading my family beyond myself? We have a lot of freedom to do that. The Bible doesn't say, thou shalt have family devotion seven times a week. It doesn't say that gives us a lot of freedom. There's a ton of freedom in the Gospel. We can work that out individually. But fundamentally, do I gather my family to pray, to read a chapter of Narnia, to read a Paul Tripp devotional about the Gospel, whatever it may be? Again, guys can do lots of different things. Do we open a chapter of scripture and read it, dinner, whatever you want to do. So am I in any way leading my family? Am I protecting my family? Am I around? Do I know what's going on physically, digitally? Am I taking steps when threats arise to respond to that? Am I game planning ahead of time for threats and then provision? Am I stepping in and, and providing so that my wife can hopefully be freed up to nurture the kids and nurture the home and, and, and be free to live out that role and that calling?
- [15:54]
A
Do you think it should be every single husband's goal to find a way that his wife can stay home if she were to want to full time?
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B
Basically, yes, I do. I think there's some gray area as to what a godly woman does. A mother, a wife. And so I'M not one who would try to color in all the lines there and say, okay, she can do seven hours with Avon, but if she's pushing 7.5 or, you know, if she's got, I don't know, an Etsy shop, you know, and she makes more than $176 a month, we are out. You know, I don't know where the lines are. What I think Scripture calls us to are, what are your priorities? What are her priorities? And modern women, honestly can be pretty challenged by that because social media, Instagram, those sorts of things can let you build a following, maybe even more than you thought you would. And that can then, you know, start to encroach on your territory as wife, mother, homemaker, and those sorts of things. So it doesn't mean you can't contribute economically or something to the family's well being. It does mean that you're watching that and you're always trying to rebalance and have your priorities, the lion's share of your time and energy, for example, as a mother, going to your kids. That's not because people like me, you know, will yell at you publicly if you don't do that. That's because, God willing, you love God and you love your kids and you're seeing discipleship as not a part of your life, like 1 25th, but as core to, to your calling on this earth.
- [17:28]
A
What did you think of the recent online discourse amongst Christian men calling out Ali Beth Stuckey for hosting a women's conference?
- [17:36]
B
Yeah, I would say that kind of stuff falls in a gray area where the Bible doesn't say women must have a women's conference or women can't have a women's conference. I think a lot of godly women who love the scripture are going to really prioritize being under the ministry of their local church and seeing as their primary discipler, their pastor, and their team of elders. So that's priority A. And what I'm not doing here is avoiding your question on purpose. Purpose. I'm saying what is clear in Scripture and what is less clear. Right. We're always working from the more to the less clear when we're reasoning out our positions on things in these hard questions in these gray areas. So the clearest is that all of us are being discipled in the context of our local church and our primary disciplers are men, honestly, because the elders and preachers and teachers are men. Not because men are necessarily more gifted than women or intelligent than women or anything like that. But just because God has called men to that role. Just as he has called women exclusively to bear children, for example. So there you go. Men think they're tough. Women bear the children. So let's settle that later on after the show. I wouldn't be one who would like say we have to have all these women's conferences or else we're in disarray. But I think there's some freedom to do that. I don't know exactly how Ali Beth's conference was done. I didn't follow the content or something like that, but she is a good voice for truth. I'm thankful for her. I, I don't think it's wrong for her innately to have a podcast or something like that as a wife and mom.
- [19:08]
A
There's a lot of, you know, self proclaimed Christian men that do.
- [19:12]
B
Yeah.
- [19:13]
A
Think that it's wrong for her to have a podcast even going so far as telling their wives they're not allowed to listen to Ali. Yeah, I just think that's so kind of bizarre.
- [19:23]
B
I do too. I think Ali, man, she's stepped up and spoken clearly and biblically and faithfully helpfully on a lot of issues. She's like Megan Basham and some other godly women I know out there in the arena. And I'm thankful for that. You, among others. I think too, a godly woman does watch though those priorities. So I'm not saying this about Allie because I don't know. Ally, you could name any woman out there who's got a public profile and this, this still applies. But you are trying to honor that role of wife, mother, homemaker. You know, if, if you feel called to that from scripture, as I think a lot of Christian women do.
- [20:04]
A
Yeah. So if, if I could just try to summarize and you can tell me if I'm wrong. What your point is, is, is overall, basically, is it essential for a godly woman to not work outside the home? The answer is no. However, if you start prioritizing your career over your family, you, you might need to reassess. And that might mean you have to step away from that job altogether if you just are incapable of, of making sure that the home still remains the priority or dialing it back or going part time or quitting entirely just for a season, at least till the kids are older. I don't know what that looks like. But yeah, I think it's. Women can have it all, but not at the same time. We've said that a lot of times throughout the years on this show. So I feel like you agree with that sentiment.
- [20:51]
B
Yeah, that sounds right. There's so much women can do in different seasons of life. You said it a second ago. But just to underline it, when the kids are little, even into the teen years, like, again, I have a very gifted wife back in Louisville, Kentucky, who is living this with me right now.
- [21:08]
A
Louisville girls are better.
- [21:09]
B
Louisville girls are top flight. I'm just saying. And so this is a woman who was encouraged to do a PhD by her college professors and theology and these sorts of things. She has better comments on the sermon on the way home from church than I do. She's just super sharp. So, again, here's another little myth to burst here, because some of what you hear in the online discourse would go against what I'm about to say. Complementarian men like myself are not asking gifted women to not be gifted. We are not saying don't think. We are not saying don't tell me your thoughts on theology. We're not saying don't read theology books. We're not saying don't go to conferences, et cetera and so on. We are saying that a godly woman, though, welcomes masculine leadership and teaching and preaching. And in the context of her home. Yeah, she's. She's careful about her priorities and her time commitment and all those sorts of things. And so I think that that all applies to these sorts of conversations.
- [22:08]
A
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- [24:30]
B
You have to have a strong walk with the Lord. So my wife and I each in the morning are trying to, you know, focus on devotions and having time for Bible reading and prayer and communication is huge. I'm not the first person to say that about marriage, but it's absolutely, massively important in a marriage and it's really easy, especially in our sped up world, to not communicate. And then you are just sort of on your own, different islands, you're fighting hard not against each other, but for each other to communicate. Well, obviously having a shared vision of the home is huge. So that you know she believes in what you're doing and you believe in what she's doing. So some of that previous conversation we were having matters there. You don't want to be misaligned. So if you do start to get misaligned, which happens in marriage, it happens in all life relationships. You, you pull aside, pull off the road and you talk together and you try to figure out where you are. Obviously you're trying to love each other romantically. You know, Ideally, you're attract to your wife and she's attracted to you. So that's a dimension, as Song of Songs would tell us, that we can talk about in the after podcast if we want. I can give all my advice there. That's a joke, you know. But the spiritual foundation is. And then there's a lot of stuff like personality and humor and you don't have to have the same personality, you don't have to have opposite personalities. It's whatever God puts together in the weird alchemy of love that fits together for you and her.
- [25:54]
A
Okay, so I saw this stat online and I, I'm just. Because I feel like it's to be responsible. I, I don't, I didn't look into this to like double check who the source was or what the deal is with this. So just bear that in mind. But yeah, allegedly. Relationship research tracked 2,000 couples and found that over 20 years, the couples who were radically honest and over communicated had a 67% divorce rate. Those who kept a few more things to themselves and didn't outwardly process every single emotion had only a divorce rate. That is drastically different. What do you think about that? Do you think that there is truth to that? That we're encouraged, like share your truth, say what you're feeling all the time, and that in marriage it might be helpful to not necessarily do that always.
- [26:43]
B
I love that stat. I love that finding. Great finding. I completely agree with, with that. Your, your thesis here. Because you have to do so much picking and choosing when you live so closely with a fellow sinner, including a sinner redeemed by God's grace and given the title Saint, you have to do so much picking and choosing, as do they, as to what you cover, as to what you don't cover. Because just the sheer fact of that all that proximity means you're in each other's airspace, right? I mean, even if you are madly in love, right, you still do stuff, say stuff that ticks them off, ticks you off. You know, you still have things go awry, you communicate expectations, you have a great communicative dynamic and you go to Starbucks or some local coffee shop, you know, every Tuesday morning at 6:30 and talk wonderful. But you still have stuff go awry. And so yeah, you have to do a lot of forgiving, you have to do a lot of zipping your lip, as grandma used to call it. You just go, we're gonna let that one pass. And you've got all sorts of proverbs that will go through your mind. Along those lines, like, it's blessed to overlook a fault. For example, Proverbs didn't address that to a married couple. It applies to marriage.
- [28:02]
A
Wow.
- [28:02]
B
The one who is unwise in the book of Proverbs is the ones who's going around running his mouth, you know, saying every thought that comes into his mind, then in a modern sense, thinking he's radically honest. So amazing. No, you've got to be discreet. You've got to be kind. You've got to be thoughtful. Honestly, this intersects as you get older in marriage because things change, right? You're not 20 years old anymore. You're not as young as you were. You know, shifts are happening bodily that neither of you probably want nor can you control. And so you have a choice, honestly, are you going to be selfishly mad about that, or are you going to embrace that? And again, everything that you get frustrated by, marriage can often be mirrorized. So you put the mirror right in front of yourself, and you're like, oh, they're probably feeling much the same way I am. So we both need a whole lot of grace and kindness and forgiveness to work in this marriage. One thought I sometimes have is. I'm not sure I'm saying enough as I know Bethany doesn't. I know Bethany bites a lot and doesn't say a lot to me. She's really gracious. But actually, it's kind of good to err on the side, per that stat of not blathering your frustration, because you want the dynamic of the marriage to be anchored in grace, divine grace that flows into your union.
- [29:17]
A
How should Christian couples engage with secular marriage advice? Is there any value to it? Sure.
- [29:22]
B
Yeah. There's common sense wisdom out there. There's common sense wisdom on how to, you know, put together cabinets and. And sets and these sorts of things and run microphones. You know, you're careful, the more up the chain you go spiritually, right? So you're. You're being careful. You're really filtering a lot when you're getting to theology and doctrine and spirituality and exegesis from unbelievers. But even in seminary, you know, I would read widely in sources. I would read a liberal commentary series. Not because I'm trying to go liberal, but I'm like, is there anything. The conservatives who are my bread and.
- [29:55]
A
Butter, maybe you were trying to get a job at Christianity Today.
- [30:00]
B
You're gonna get me in trouble. So you read widely. You know, you read widely in the health world and that sort of thing. You pick up stuff, right, that. That the people who agree with you on the doctrines of, you know, regeneration and sanctification didn't pick up. But you're careful, you're doing that carefully as you get to theology and spirituality and that sort of thing. So, yeah, there's a lot of common sense wisdom out there about. I don't buy heavily into love languages, for example, from the past. That's more like boomer stuff, right? But there's something to like. My wife, my wife doesn't love roses, honestly. So, so much of the advice you get when you're a young man, you're like wide eyed, like, all right, big pastor leader, Christian guy, tell me what marriage is. And what I've learned is that was wonderful. They did that for me. They gave me a lot in some areas though, total strikeout. Because she doesn't like that. My wife doesn't like grand gestures. You know, she doesn't want me to whisk her away to the Bahamas. She wants me to go down in the basement and clean out the storage room that she's been waiting for eight months to tackle.
- [31:04]
A
She's acts of service.
- [31:05]
B
She's acts of service and I need to know that. And love languages didn't pioneer that concept in the secular world, but that's a helpful insight.
- [31:15]
A
How does Satan tempt couples with a transactional marriage ideology?
- [31:20]
B
A transactional marriage is bad news, bears, because once you go down that road, you're going to be frustrated because as we were talking about earlier, marriage in a fallen world means inherently you're not going to get a lot of what you want. So a lot of what our culture sells us and a lot of what Instagram and social media, you know, puts out there in polished form, that I have this spotless life, right? I have this perfect marriage. We take the perfect length of vacation, we eat just the right stuff at all the cool spots. You know, we're all over the world, we're international, a lot of that. And my husband and I, here we are just, you know, embracing and kissing and all these sorts of things and it's all flawless. It's such not the case. And it, it, is it not amazing when you hear about these influencer couples, for example, or celebrities who have this airbrushed marriage or whatever family life and then it's, it's gone, you know. So part of why that is so is because they don't have a foundation of sacrifice in marriage. That's the Christian dynamic. The Christian dynamic is not all right, you're going to get what you want. And I'm Going to get what I want in this marriage. And when we, when we're not getting it, we're out. By the way, that's a contractual form of marriage. Covenantal marriage is the old language. Till death do us part it is. I'm yours and you're mine in a loving sense until God splits us up. And so, I mean, you think about, for example, couples in extended medical difficulties. Let's just say it's a little sticky, but let's say it's romantically and the man is frustrated for years because his wife has a, has a medical condition that inhibits romance. This is a real life thing. I mean, you hear about this. I'm not telling it to be weird or something. It's real. Well, is he getting, you know, what he hoped for? Is he getting what the marriage books say he should shoot for? Is he getting what the Instagram couples look like, you know they're getting? No. And if he's just downing a steady stream of all of that cultural stuff, it's very likely he's going to be, at minimum, profoundly dissatisfied in his marriage. He already has a hard row, even as a Christian, even if he's really committing this to the Lord. But the good news is, if covenant is your foundation, God centered covenant in marriage, still going to get hit hard. We all do in this life. And Satan hates marriage almost more than anything.
- [33:42]
A
Wow.
- [33:42]
B
But you're going to make it by the Spirit's power. You're going to make it because those moments when you have to swallow hard and go, she spoke unkindly to me there, or he continues in that pattern we talked about last month, he keeps doing it, but you keep going back to that dynamic of sacrifice and forgiveness and bearing with faults and the reality, last thing, that God is doing something bigger than this day or this week or this month, you're not aiming for a great year of marriage, I hope you have one. You're aiming for 70 years of marriage that will testify to entire generations of your family. Ideally, as, as you are sitting on the porch when you're 89, there are three generations around you. So are there hard moments throughout those 70 years of marriage? Yeah, there are some hard moments, but the, the, the long term commitment is what you're aiming at more than the momentary satisfaction the world urges you to have that, that fuels a transactional relationship.
- [34:42]
A
Why is it important to remember that God doesn't bring you your spouse to work on them, but for him to work on us?
- [34:52]
B
Because when you are in close proximity to a fellow sinner husband or wife, you will see their faults and shortcomings and sins more than you will see your own. It's amazing how, for all the talk we have about, you know, secular insights, a ton of them are already there in scripture. And here's one with Jesus and the log in your eye and the speck in your brother's eye, those kind of principles that applies so much to marriage because it is so easy to see his or her flaws. And then when. When it's her time for me in the conversation to talk about my shortcomings, who do those defenses go up fast? I'm like the Pentagon over here, man. Like, I am ready to throw down. You have to know, you have to commit, you have to pray, and you have to do a lot of repenting. Alex, I have to do a lot of repenting.
- [35:39]
A
What does it look like to truly repent to your spouse?
- [35:43]
B
When I was saying that, I'm saying I repent before the Lord, first of all, of a lot of, you know, mental and spiritual thoughts and heart attitudes. Right. Just stinky, grumpy stuff. Right. But then, yeah, a lot of the best repentance, I think, comes when you are not in the heat of the moment. So my wife and I have tried to work this out, do it imperfectly, but we try to have forums where we can talk about stuff and the defenses are down. And I think that is where a lot of the best conversation happens. When you, as a pastor encouraged us to do years ago, and we've. We've had seasons where we've done it better and. And not as well. But when you set aside time to talk and you. You go in knowing the defenses are down, that's often when you're not just, like, bristling and getting upset. You're really able to hear each other and always try to. You always want to try to be encouraging to each other. What happens in bitter marriages is the dynamic gets off, and now it's basically just frustration and, like, depression in a cycle.
- [36:48]
A
Yeah. How do you get out of that cycle?
- [36:50]
B
You get out of that cycle by hitting reset, by the two of you recognizing in humility that you need to work on your marriage. A lot of times, women are quicker to see that they need to work on their marriage. Women want to work on the marriage. Men are the ones who often have to say, in life, we're going to be okay. Not because women, you know, can't function or something like that, but women are. Are experiencing a more diverse emotional life at any given time. Men are men are emotional, too, by the way. It's just that women experience, like, 10 emotions within 10 minutes, and men will, you know, get frustrated and go out and burn the barn down. You know, that's the emotional life of men. They experience one emotion strongly. Women are, like, in 10 different states in an hour. So you're coming at it different from different angles. Men are usually going to be slower to think, this marriage needs work. Yeah, but, Alex, there's. There's a strength and a weakness. The strength is men have to say, we're going to be okay, honey. It's going to be okay. Nine times out of 10, it is going to be okay. They have to say that they have to help her. They're called to be strong for her. He's called to be strong for her. But then there are times when that same instinct, that same strength becomes a weakness. And I've seen that in my own life where it's like, we're okay. You know, we don't need to. We're doing fine. Yeah, we have some stuff. It's like, no, we. We should. We should pull over and we should talk honestly. And here's what a lot of men don't want to do. Okay, here's the taboo. A lot of men don't want to get help. Because if men get help, they're weak, they're inadequate, they're not a real man. There's a lot of ways Satan will prey on that natural insecurity of men, sinful insecurity of men, and he will keep the marriage from getting the help it needs. And so men out there, you and me, us owning our sin and us recognizing that our marriage or our family, our parenting needs work, is not a loss. It's not an L. It's a W. It's a win. I try to say this whenever I do men's events because I know the masculine psyche to a degree, and I know that men read talking to outside folks as a loss. And it's not a loss. Every Christian needs help. Every Christian is a disciple. God has to help us infinitely if we're going to save and grow.
- [39:14]
A
Why is someone's marriage a gospel issue?
- [39:16]
B
Because marriage at the earthly level points to marriage at the spiritual level. The marriage of Christ and his church, according to Ephesians 5:22-33. So every husband, whether he knows it or not, is a little living image of Jesus. And every wife, whether she knows it or not, is a little living picture of the church. And God has. Has told us that that relationship is supposed to be one of loving authority, gracious leadership and godly submission, willing submission. And so, yeah, marriage, that's part of why Satan attacks it so hard. Because marriage is this living demonstration that has tremendous power. Think about how when you see over time, especially a strong marriage, not just, you know, you shake some hands and you go out to eat. But I mean, like, you witness a strong marriage and you're like, that is powerful. It's because God has made marriage in that way. He's given it a special beauty and power that other things don't have.
- [40:17]
A
Every family has a dream. Some dream of financial freedom, some dream of a bigger house. My dream, that one day the big metal bowl in my kitchen, the throw up bowl, will be used for popcorn and not the flu. That's why I'm obsessed with Cowboy colostrum. It's nature's original immune system. This stuff is first milking colostrum, collected just four to six hours after birth from grass fed us cows. The good stuff. It's the surplus, by the way, so you don't need to worry about stealing it from the babies. It's rich in immunoglobulins and bioactive compounds that support immunity, gut health, skin, hair, and athletic recovery. And it's whole colostrum. So this is like whole milk. All right? It's not stripped down like other brands. Cowboy is fluffy. It's creamy, it's delicious, it's real, it's yellow. That's the way it's supposed to look. You can froth it into water, coffee, or a smoothie. The vanilla literally tastes like a childhood milkshake. But your body thinks it's medicine. So if you want your family to stop trading germs like Pokemon cards, go to cowboycolostrom.com and use code Alex. Buying gifts for parents or grandparents is basically impossible. Seriously. I mean, you could get them a jetpack and they'd complain. Where do I put it? But here's one thing. Everyone needs new sheets. Imagine Grandpa unboxes the cozy earth sheets, fluffs them up and then, I'm not joking, he tests them not by lying down like a normal person, but by sitting and letting one of his patented farts rip like a nuclear test. And nothing, nothing burns, no holes in the sheets, just silky temperature regulating bliss. That's cozy earth baby, made from viscose from bamboo. It's cooling, it's soft, it's basically indestructible. Unless grandpa discovers a way to summon a volcano in his recliner. These sheets wick away heat, keep sleep cool. And feel so good your parents might actually stop complaining for 5 minutes plus a 100 night trial and 10 year warranty. If somehow grandpa's nuclear farts do make it through, you're covered this holiday. Stop worrying about impossible gifts. Give sheets that everybody is actually going to use and love. Go to cozyearth.com use code Alex for 40% off their bestselling sheets, apparel and more. Again, that's cozyearth.com code Alex for 40% off. Can you talk about realistic expectations within a Christian marriage where both of you may be believers but you're still sinners?
- [42:26]
B
That in itself is a good way to frame it. You've got to go in with that knowledge. You've got to go in knowing you're going to hurt each other's feelings. You've got to go in knowing, as we were talking about it just a minute ago, that you, you will likely need to talk to older couples, that you will want other voices in your marriage.
- [42:43]
A
So that there, I think is so interesting because there are a lot of women in my audience who feel like I am being a submissive wife. I am going out of my way to love and respect my husband. I am asking him, how can I best serve you today? And he is still totally rejecting me. He is not leading, he is not loving me in an understanding way. And I'm wanting to seek outside help. I'm wanting to have, you know, other couples at our church that have been married a lot longer disciple us or pour into us. And he is just totally, you know, pissed for me even suggesting that we bring others in. Like, how does, how does a wife navigate that?
- [43:21]
B
A wife in that hard situation prays, she gets counsel from her sisters and she graciously tries, as you just said she is doing, to talk to her husband. She has to know, though, that she's not the Holy Spirit, that this is a part of how sin does affect a marriage, and that she's gonna have to exercise patience and trust in God in this area, just like in every area. So this isn't a wave of the hand to women in this situation. But honestly, we have real life situations where it's easy to trust God and we have real life situations where it's hard to trust God. Sure, in all of them, we need to trust God, including the ones where the wife is like, come on, this isn't that hard. Let's just go to coffee with the couple. You know, they're godly, we want to be like them. Let's do it. So pray for your Husband, talk to him. And if things just really are not in a good place, I would say it's valid to try to get some loving help from a godly older couple in the church. If he really is stubborn and he's not listening, you're not like, calling 911 on the guy, you know, because he's not a great listener, but you are trying to bring in other. Other voices. This is why I was saying what I was just saying a few minutes ago. It's because men so often don't want to get help. And I see that instinct in myself. And I know women out there are struggling in that situation. And that's why I do men's events, and I try to learn from scripture and my own experience and call men to see men. We've got to be good listeners. We have to listen well to our wives.
- [45:02]
A
And.
- [45:02]
B
And so when your wife is coming to you consistently, I know this firsthand. Don't continually push it off. Listen to her. Men need to listen to their wives. They. They need to know that women have a good read on the situation. And I'm not saying women are always right or something like that, but a wife is a helper to a man.
- [45:21]
A
I think a lot of times people that find themselves in the situations and wives especially, that feel like, I don't know what to do, like, my husband isn't willing to say, seek help with me. Those are great examples of when it's time to rely on the church. And if you are not a member of a sound church where your pastor is actively shepherding you and then can check in on your marriage, and the congregation loves you and knows you and wants your marriage to succeed, they can check in on you and say, how are things going with you guys? We haven't seen you in a while. Like, if you are able to just miss church for months and nobody checks in on you and says, where have you been? I feel like that's a sign, like, you need to have a conversation with that pastor or, like, find a new church, because that's that support system you're supposed to be able to lean on. So you're not just going through this alone and trying to help your husband or help your wife. This could be on the wife, too. Can you speak to that of just, like, you might have a. You know, maybe you're not being honest with yourself and saying, like, the reason you feel so alone is because you guys aren't plugged into church.
- [46:16]
B
Oh, totally. And there's tons of men out there and women in general are more spiritually inclined than men. It doesn't mean women are better than men, because we don't want to do that. We don't want to do it on either side. Men are better than women, women are better than men. It's not true. Neither is true. And interestingly, the fall of Genesis 3 implicates both the man and the woman. The man doesn't lead. The woman is deceived by the serpent willingly. So you can't do the which sex is better thing. But what you can say is, yeah, that was heat, what you just said. A lot of men out there are struggling. And what happens when men are struggling is they play to their base instincts and they don't pursue maturity. And you know who suffers as a result? Women and children. They suffer. And I'm using that word carefully. So your point about the local church is excellent. Here's what the local church is. This is a little bit of a different angle. Think of it like a sports team. If you go to the local rec league, you like basketball, which I do, and it's just like, put on a jersey. There's no practices. Everybody gets a trophy at the end of it. Right. You're not real inspired, are you? You just. You just go out there and you just do whatever. If you are asked to join a basketball team and it is AAU ball and it is intense and everybody's taking accountability for themselves and they are up at 6am and they are eating right and all the things. And it is a. It is a pistol of a team that changes you. Yeah, you either. You either, like, you either have to up your game or you can't cut it. And strong local churches are exactly like that.
- [47:51]
A
We are obviously so happy. Charlie would have been so happy to see so many people being like, okay, I'm going to church for the first time. But you have to recognize that that's not where it ends. Passively showing up in a service and then dipping out, you're not saved. Just going to church doesn't save you. It doesn't get you to heaven. But also that just passively going and not becoming a member and not getting involved in serving in the church, you're not going to find that sense of community. So when you're like, I don't know, we go to church, but, like, nobody cares about us. Okay, well, what have you done? I mean, you know, how much have you shown up? That. That's like. That's what I think.
- [48:30]
B
I agree.
- [48:31]
A
Those are two kind of separate points.
- [48:33]
B
But no, they Intertwine, you think of like David to his son Solomon in 1st Kings 2. Two, be strong and show yourself a man. A passage that many men would in hearing that go, cool. I like that in the Bible, be strong. I want to be strong. And men should like that. Men need a call to strength. Men do not enjoy following weakness. Men do not survey the room looking for the weakest guy to follow. In their natural state, men survey the room and they try to find a tribal chieftain they look up to. Whether it's music, whether it's computer games, whether it's rock, whether it is sports, whether it is intellectual life. Men want a strong figure to follow because men want to be strong. Boys come up to you when they're tiny, when they're four and they say, is my muscle big? They want to be strong. So God's word calls men to strength. It doesn't say men be weak, women step forward. It says to men, be strong and show yourself a man. In First Corinthians 16:13, Paul says, Act like men. So what this means for men in this kind of situation where men are just sort of, you know, nerfing it through life, what it means is men need to hear that call to strength, maturity, accountability. But that doesn't mean what a lot of men might think it means. It doesn't mean be strong and exercise domineering authority over the people around you or make yourself great or avoid being a servant or something like that. No, because the paragon of strength in scripture is Jesus Christ, who genuinely was strong and came to face down the devil on the cross and wash our sins away. And in doing so, in dying, Jesus destroyed the power of death. But how did Jesus do that? He did not do that by picking up a flaming sword. He did it by dying. He did it by laying down his life. Which shows us then the pattern of the whole Christian life for man and woman alike. But the pattern of life, especially for men in that role of leadership, were men who do genuinely lead. But we lead in a humble, gracious, self sacrificing way. And strong local churches should, in preaching the Bible, breed that kind of man, where even if he hasn't joined, if he goes there for six, seven weeks, he's like, oh, dude, these guys aren't just playing golf and like, you know, nerfing it. These guys are like, they're trying to be like good husbands and like, oh, that dude I talked to, he's like meeting with an older guy to what? For accountability? Oh, I've Never had account no. 1 has any faintest clue what I look at on my phone. And I'm not sure I really want that. Why does he have that? So the local church steps your game up as the spirit works in you. And we need that, Alex. We need that all across America and the world. And you know, that's what Charlie stood for. That's what Charlie lived, honestly as I can read him. And we need a ton of men who step up to the plate like that.
- [51:30]
A
Scripture calls men to love their wives in an understanding way. Can you give an example of a time that you've had to do that and what that even means?
- [51:39]
B
I would have lots of files in that folder where I have tried.
- [51:44]
A
Your wife is like, what do you mean? You have like one example. In all of our years of marriage, there's only one time.
- [51:49]
B
Yeah, it's a little intimidating to be asked these questions on camera. Because it's a high standard. Yeah. I mean there have just been different opportunities where we're stressed and we're facing some stuff. And I really do feel that call to strength we were just talking about. Not a call to strength that silences her. That's what men wrongly think strength is in a marriage. No, it almost never would mean that unless she's screaming heresy at the top of her lungs for some strange reason. It so often means strength in, in the form of, of strength under control. That's really what a man has to show a ton of. So good gentleness, which is not the absence of strength. It is strength under control. And so yeah, I, I don't know that I have a ready made personal example. But there, there are a lot of times when, you know, I will just need to engage with her because she is bringing up so many things that are, frankly, I'm not thinking about. She is thinking about rightly, we need to work through them together. But what I need to do is not go into problem solving in that mode. I need to instead meet her. I need to meet her on her level. I need to not swat her concerns away. I need to not say, oh yeah, yeah, it's going to be fine. I need to, I need to do the much harder thing, like in the old Klondike commercial where the guy listens for 10 seconds and then gets a ribbon. I need to listen, I need to lock in, as my 14 year old son would say. I need to understand her heart. She probably is looking for me to affirm that. And, and then, and then she's ready with me to talk through the plan and she will. So often have great ideas and how to prosecute action going forward.
- [53:29]
A
Is there a patriarchy surge in Christian marriages and is that a good or bad thing?
- [53:33]
B
I think there is, and I don't read it overall as a good thing. And that's because I don't think the Bible teaches patriarchy. I don't think that the man rules his wife, which is what patriarchy means, at least to a lot of patriarchalists. I don't think that the man is effectively the one who makes all the decisions and his wife has very little voice in that. I want to say, I want to be careful. There's a spectrum of patriarchy out there and I think it can be practiced better or worse. And I think there are some voices that are better and some that are worse. Okay, but in general, I have already on this podcast and in my ministry made clear that I don't think patriarchy is really what scripture teaches. I think the better word for it is complementarity, that the sexes are equal. Like you'll hear patriarchalists say men and women aren't equal. And I think I know what they mean, but Homie does not play that. No way. Men and women are totally equal. We are image bearers in the sight of God. Men are not better than women. Women are not better than men. Men and women are distinct and have distinct abilities and capacities and do not have all the same strengths. Absolutely. But get out of, get out of here. That hot garbage of men and women are not equal. They are equal. And, and so I'm just concerned about some of that sort of language and thinking that I, I, I'm sorry, I've had men say to me on social media, I'm gonna, I need to dominate my wife life like positively patriarchy advocates. Like godly marriage for me isn't feminism. It looks like me dominating my wife. And I'm like, here is the age old example of we have veered out of one ditch and that's a real ditch feminism, and we have driven right into the other and the windshield is smashed because you are 22 years old talking a big game on X and you are gonna chew up the first girl, you put a ring on their finger. And I am legitimately scared for her. And I am concerned, Alex, for these women out there who are in patriarchal marriages. I'm not, not calling every woman anytime her husband, you know, is an actual sinner, you know, to call the church elders or something like that. Because both, we've talked about this. Both man and woman have to live with each other's sin, right?
- [55:44]
A
Yep, they.
- [55:44]
B
They both do.
- [55:45]
A
I have a friend who got married young in the church. As of recently, her husband has totally started to veer into this patriarchy path like crazy. Like, not biblical version of it. Right to the point where this woman's husband is saying now that there's biblical evidence for polyamory and for spanking your wife for discipline purposes. So that's been a whole thing that she's now had to navigate and through divorce and all kinds of stuff, but, you know, was getting, like, very, very physically abusive, saying, no, I have to spank you every single time you disrespect me and things like that. What are your thoughts on that? Have you seen any of that online? Because I'm now seeing these accounts pop up. It's really crazy. And they're using scripture and warping scripture to defend these ideas.
- [56:42]
B
They are, and I am seeing it, and it's. It freaks me out. And I believe that that stuff is of the devil. Just because you are reacting to feminism with return to the Bible you say, does not mean what you are doing is good. We are in danger in the conservative movement and the Christian world alike. I'm more in the Christian ministry world. But we are in danger of thinking just because there's all this bad stuff. Wokeness, social justice, whatever. Feminism, homosexuality, transgenderism. If I just react to that in any form, anyone who is reacting to the bad stuff must automatically be my 100% ally. It could not be more wrong. That is not true. You have to choose your allies very carefully. You have to exercise a ton of discernment as a Christian. So is wokeness bad? Yes. I've written a book against it. But does that mean same with feminism. Does that mean now I can enfranchise any response to wokeness? No. I have to think that through. So this is what we've seen with feminism. We've seen a lot of young guys and young women, in a moment of blushing excitement, hit the overreaction button. And now she's. All of a sudden, homegirl's got a head covering. She's baking the sourdough four days a week. You never hear from her. She's committed herself to 15 kids, and, you know, you're in her presence, and she used to talk excitedly with you, and now she just stares up at her husband anytime a question is asked and defers to him. And you're like, are you okay? Blink twice.
- [58:14]
A
Yeah.
- [58:14]
B
And what I want to say is, there absolutely is a call to submission in scripture. I'M not softening that one bit. There's a call for a woman, I think, to embrace the life of a homemaker and a mother as much as she can, as much as God allows her to if she's married. But that does not mean the same thing as this patriarchy garbage on the far end where husbands are spanking wives and treating them like children. That's the problem, though. If the man is such a ruler of his home that he's the only adult, she's going to end up treated that way. And if there are any Christian women out there watching this, listening to us, and that is your situation, again, I want to encourage you to act in faith and calmness and hope and a lot of prayer. But I also want you to get help from godly women in your congregation. Calm, patient help.
- [59:03]
A
When it comes to women submitting to their husbands, what is the difference between tyranny and sin? And does she still have to submit.
- [59:09]
B
To both or either she shouldn't follow him into sin. She's got to know, though, there's a line there that you're, you're putting your finger on rightly. She's got to know that he's going to get stuff wrong. She's got to know that submission isn't limited only to good decisions or decisions that turn out the way she thought they should go or something like that. And those are some of the hardest moments of submission for a woman. Again, submission is not contingent on your husband having a higher IQ than you or something like that, or leading in areas you don't care about. Submission is for all of life. Paul says a wife is to submit in everything. So that's a pattern of life. Paul doesn't mean, though, that a woman is never going to disagree with her husband. He doesn't mean that it is wrong for a woman to voice graciously and respectfully disagreement with her husband. He doesn't mean that a woman is to follow her husband into sin. She is not. So, so we, we need to do two things. We need to have a great robust dialogue about what submission is. And then we also need to talk about what it is not.
- [60:11]
A
All right, real talk. We don't care where you put your sticks, under the couch, in your desk drawer, even other less conventional places. Honestly, it's between you and God, what you do with your beef stick. But here's the golden rule. Make sure they're grass fed, grass finished. The rest, well, that's your business. I'm talking Paleo valley beef sticks, 100 grass fed naturally fermented organic spices. They're the only sticks that you can actually feel proud of. Original jalapeno Teriyaki. Whatever flavor you like, you know it's clean. And unlike some other things you might be hiding, these are not going to let you down. Then there's the grass fed organ complex. Freeze dried organs from happy cows. The supplement is so good. Full spectrum nutrients, no gagging required. Drop it in a smoothie, sprinkle it on eggs. Heck, keep it in a velvet bag. If that's your vibe, nobody's judging. So stop pretending your snack sticks are just snacks. These are wholly nutrient packed grass fed magic. Treat them right, keep them safe and your body will thank you. Head to paleo valley.com use code Alex for 15% off. Your first order. That's paleo valley.com code Alex. Grass fed grass finished in yours to enjoy however you like. You ever scrape your knees an adult? It's humiliating. Kids bounce up and keep running and then adults go down like a redwood in slow motion looking at you. Travis Kelsey. Well, I tripped on an electric scooter last week and laid there like this is it. This is how I go. Luckily I had active skin repair. It's this amazing natural non toxic spray that helps your skin actually heal. It uses a molecule called hypochlorous acid. Sounds fancy, but it's literally what your body makes naturally to fight infection and repair skin. This just gives your immune system a little backup squad. You can use it on anything, okay? Cuts, scrapes, burns, rashes, breakouts, sunburns, even acne and eczema. It's safe for all skin types in all ages, from toddlers to people who shouldn't be falling off scooters like me. Over 500000 happy customers and thousands of 5 star reviews because it was it works. I've never seen a bad review on this product. Use code Alex for 20% off. Get a couple of them. Give this away for your bunko nights for your your Christmas swaps. I don't know. Stocking stuffers. ActiveShipRepair.com code Alex for 20% off. Do men really care more about respect than love?
- [62:30]
B
I think there's not so sharp a line there for men. I think a lot of the way men feel loved is they are respected and our culture does not. Let me just say this, here's a kind of different end of the spectrum word to women watching our culture and I'm sure they know this, but our culture does not encourage respective men. You don't come away from A lot of sectors of society feeling super respected as a man. And I don't mean, you know, you should have, you know, a Roman marching band behind you every time you, you know, go through a door successfully. I do mean, though, that you, you can feel pretty torn down as a man in the society. And, and especially if you're in the wrong end of the, the woke Olympics, you know, and if you're, if you're a straight white man, for example, in a lot of contexts, you, you will feel, you know, you'll feel like you're in a rough place, for example.
- [63:20]
A
So what does that look like? Like, what comes off as respect to men? Like, in a biblical sense, what should wives be doing?
- [63:27]
B
There was a lot of culture in the 90s and beyond where men are laughable and what men do is silly. And men, there's a lot of commercials even to the current day. It's kind of flipping as the political world changes and shifts, but still, there's a lot of it out there. Movies, tv, where the, you know, the guy, the husband is an idiot. Yeah, just, just over and over again. The dude's an idiot and everyone's laughing at him. And really, that's the one character now that you can laugh at, because you shouldn't laugh at kids in a cartoon or something. You're not going to laugh at mom, but you can laugh at dad. And so this isn't about affirmative action for a certain skin color or something like that. That is not my project at all. But it is to say that a wife can take her husband seriously, can respect him, can honor him when he does something good, can thank him if he is out there leading, protecting, and providing. She cannot take that for granted or act like that's what you're supposed to do. Big whoop. No. Dial up. Let's say the marriage isn't in a perfect place, right? It's not a horrible place, but it's not amazing. Dial up encouragement. Those women who want their husband to hear them, this isn't the magic solve it, but dial up thankfulness. Dial up affirmation when you see something good. When he says that guy at church, like we were talking about, that guy at church takes his daughter out for pancakes on Saturday. Do you think I should do that? Don't say yes. I've said that 12 times to you. Why are you finally hearing me? Don't make it a fight. You might want to in your flesh. We might understand that because you might have said that more than 12 times, 800 times. But just go That's a wonderful idea. I love that. And then.
- [65:09]
A
So good. Yeah.
- [65:10]
B
When he comes back from it, ask him how it was. Thank him for doing it. It's not treating men like puppies or something like that. We don't want to do that. But you'd be surprised. Women would be surprised.
- [65:21]
A
And that's like exercising, which I have to work on a lot. That's exercising a little bit of self control to not be like, I told you and be like, that's a wonderful idea. You know, I, I think that's really helpful to hear.
- [65:35]
B
That's the gent. What you just voiced there is the gentle and quiet spirit of First Peter 3. It doesn't.
- [65:40]
A
And my audience knows that's my. Like, I know one day when I get married, that's going to be my biggest thing to work on. I'm. Because, you know, and another guest, me told me this and I, I just, I thought it was so interesting when I was sitting there and she was telling me this, she's like, in every other area of your life, every other lane, this going on the news, public speaking, whatever, you are celebrated for being brash and direct and not gentle in marriage and in motherhood, you're going to have to find that part of you that's going to be extremely important. And I'm like, wow, that's so true. It's going to be a challenge for me.
- [66:09]
B
Yeah. And another, another half truth is that gentle and quiet spirit means like, that kind of never says anything. So if you have a strong personality and a sharp mind, you know, now you get married and you need to just kind of put all that in the attic, Right? No, it doesn't mean that. It does mean though, what you said. It does mean that you take that gifting and that strong personality and everything you got that God has given you for his glory, that should be exercised for his glory and it's under control.
- [66:34]
A
How should a husband lead spiritually if he feels less spiritually mature than his wife?
- [66:38]
B
That's an intimidating place for a husband be. It's easy to critique him when he's in that position, but what he should do is just do the basics. That's. A lot of men are intimidated by spiritual leadership. Listen, a ton of guys did not grow up with a dad who invested in them in any way, let alone was a spiritual Moses of the home. Every morning, okay, A ton of guys have no model for this. A ton of guys, you know, they haven't seen it done well. And so here again is an opportunity for A lot of patience on the part of godly women. It's hard, but a lot of the Christian life is hard, by the way. And so when those men make the simple realization that spiritual leadership actually isn't that complicated, you don't need degrees, you don't need to spout wisdom for 89 minutes a morning. All you need to really do is pray together as a family. Ask a brother for a devotional resource. Read. Read it a night or two a week with the family. Start having spiritual conversations with your kids. Take the kids to pancakes and talk with your wife and say, honey, what do you think are three, three good spiritual questions? I could ask our son or our daughter and invest in him or her and just, just do that. Do one question. Spiritual leadership is, does not need. It gets so cranked up. And that's part of the patriarchy emphasis. But it's, it's beyond. It's. It's outside of that tribe as well. And men get super intimidated.
- [68:09]
A
And so maybe they're really intimidated seeing everything with Charlie and how he led his home and, you know, what a godly man he was. And they're like, man, I want to be that. I aspire to be that. I have no clue where to start.
- [68:22]
B
Right.
- [68:23]
A
I don't know how to learn that. I've never read my Bible. I don't know how to read the Bible. I don't even know how to pray.
- [68:27]
B
Right.
- [68:28]
A
What's your advice?
- [68:29]
B
I'm going to steal our collective answer from a few minutes ago and say, go to a strong church. That's the easiest, quickest way to get caught up to speed, to be around men who do know those things and who won't shame you. Godly men, at least in most healthy churches, will not walk up to you and go, are you leading your family spiritually? You're not. What a loser. You know, that's not really spiritual edification. Right, Right. So they will help you. They'll help you so that. But that's where, you know, you can't, like, throw a lasso around men and drag them to sound churches. Yeah, right. God has to work and they have to go. But that's, that's a huge part of how this can happen. Watch other guys who are doing it well learn from them. It's simple spiritual leadership. It'll go lots of different directions. Absolutely. But it's, it's simple at base.
- [69:21]
A
How do you feel about this statement? I saw this on X. Wives are God's main weapon against porn addiction in men and need to Be reminded of the dignity of that role. Are women men's porn firewalls dull?
- [69:35]
B
Mercy sakes. I would be. I would be extremely careful with that sort of thinking. That sort of thinking got hot in Christian circles like, 12 to 15 years ago. And it was. Wives were basically seen as, yeah, the defense against porn addiction or something like this. So you sort of swap. You take your. You take your porn addiction, you swap it out for a wife, and now it's just this endless, you know, feast of romance. And that's the one thing that will keep you from stumbling sexually. Okay. Marriage is a wonderful gift of God. Sex was God's idea, not man's. There's nothing weird about it. There's nothing bad about it. Inherently, it's good. It's beautiful. Having a strong romantic life with your wife helps a lot in the purity area as a man. Men on average having a lot more drive than women. Not always, but on average. Men on average have 2,000 to 3,000% more testosterone than women. No one talks about this. It's a massive experience gap between men and women. But with those things that I just said, said that is completely unfair to say to a woman. Like, what? So if. If she needs a night off, you're off the hook for looking at porn or something like that.
- [70:49]
A
Right.
- [70:49]
B
I mean, what about, like, you can never say no.
- [70:52]
A
I mean, as a pastor, do you feel like women do need to do their best to not say no to sex with their husband? Unless it's in case of serious, you know, illness or postpartum or something like that. Otherwise, do you think, for the most part, you should be saying yes or. Or what's your thoughts?
- [71:07]
B
A lot of freedom, a lot of gray area. First Corinthians 7 is the clearest place to go in scripture. And it has. It's like Song of Songs actually has a wife who is working at honoring her husband in this area, helping him in this area, showing love to him in this area. This is a key part of how many men feel loved. Romance, right? To. To use the euphemism, but also in those two places. Song of songs, in First Corinthians 7, the husband is not enforcing his desires on his wife. This is where complementarity is better than hyped up versions that go further. The husband is not, I think, legit and going, all right, it's four times a week or else you're. You're in a bad place and I'm calling the elders, you know, or whatever it is.
- [71:52]
A
Yeah, no, I literally, I dated somebody and that is something he said to me. He was like, it is non negotiable. We have to, when, you know, if we get married one day, we have to have sex at least six days a week. And I'm just like, bro, like all my best friends are married with kids, you know, 10, 20 years. In some cases. That is just not reality. There's seasons. There's seasons where you're not gonna be able to stay off of each other. There's seasons where there's gonna be lulz. You know what I mean? Right? I mean, you're married, like, can you speak to this? So I, I think there's like with unmarried men who, you know, and claim to be Christians, I think sometimes there's just a really unrealistic, very much unmanaged expectation of what a healthy sex life should look like in marriage and a realistic sex life.
- [72:38]
B
Right. It's not the man telling the wife what it is. It's also not the wife in, in a gospel shaped marriage, you know, withholding from the husband and thinking nothing of it. It's, it's, this is the dynamic of biblical marriage. It's complementarity. It's, it's self giving love honestly, where a man probably especially as time goes on, body's changing, drive is changing, kids. Oh man. There's so many things that lots of women face, especially in this day and age. All the health things that you cover regularly, it can feel like women are just battling, you know, always battling health stuff. One thing to the next. That has a massive effect in this area of a marriage. So men need to exercise a lot of self control. Men out there don't think that you are able to be unself controlled in the area of marital sex. Self control matters just as much in that area as in every area of your life. So I would just say those principles hugely matter. The sexes come together, the husband and wife comes together. You got to have conversation about it. One's got to give, the other's got to give. There's a mutual dynamic there. There's an interplay there. And there's not this sort of prison like relationship where the guy just says what he wants and the woman does it. By the way, that is a fantastic way to kill, you know, enjoyment for a wife in marriage.
- [74:06]
A
True. Yeah.
- [74:06]
B
Men. Alex. Sorry, I'm saying a lot of fancy words. A lot of men out there need to grow up. They need to grow up and they need to realize, okay, I need to, like, I'm, I need to calm down. I, I need to, you know, let romance be something special. I need to take some nights off, maybe a good bunch of nights off. I want to recover the specialness of this and let her at least some of the time, you know, be able to really enter into this with joy in her whole heart.
- [74:37]
A
In First Corinthians 7:38, Paul says this. So then he who marries his betrothed does well, and he who refrains from marriage will do even better. Can you clarify why self driven singleness can be sinful and why godly singleness can be honorable?
- [74:55]
B
Sometimes you will hear people overreact. Here's my overreact button again to our culture, our self driven culture by saying, guys just get married, girls just get, just find a man already. And I know what a lot of those voices are getting at and I agree to a pretty serious extent with the general call. The Bible esteems and honors marriage. It's God's plan for most men and women in life. It's a huge part of our sanctification. It isn't sanctification itself, but it's a big part. And yet I'm still like, I don't know that I could stand on a stage, you know, in front of 500 people and say, all of you young guys need to get married. Some of them do. A lot of them do. Do some of the young women do. A lot of them do. Some of them don't. The Bible holds out singleness that is ordered to God, that is, that is given to God as an honorable calling. Paul says he prefers it to marriage because the married person has to think a ton about the marriage and the family, whereas the single person is free to focus on the things of the Lord. That's 1 Corinthians 7. So self driven singleness, though distinguished from that, from, from godly singleness, gospel driven singleness would be, I want to do what I want to do. I want to just have my vacations. I want to spend time however I want to spend it. I want to eat the fun food I want to eat. I want life to be my curated, you know, taste fest. And you can do a lot of those things as a Christian and enjoy them, but that's not the focus of your life. The focus of your life, man or woman alike, as a godly single person person, whatever God does in your future is God's glory. You're living for God's glory, not for yourself.
- [76:34]
A
Are Bible studies for women only?
- [76:36]
B
What do you mean?
- [76:37]
A
Some men think, I'm not going to a Bible study.
- [76:39]
B
That's for girls. Oh, do they?
- [76:43]
A
Some of them.
- [76:44]
B
We got some conversations we need to have with some of these dudes, Alex.
- [76:47]
A
But I'm telling you.
- [76:48]
B
No, I, I lead, I lead a small Bible study for a few young guys back in the Louisville.
- [76:54]
A
You're like flabbergasted by the question.
- [76:56]
B
I'm not answering super reflexively here. No, we all should study the Bible. We have a ton of freedom to study the Bible. The godliest man who ever lived, Jesus Christ, gathered his disciples, his closest disciples, and taught them on a regular basis. How, what, what exegetical basis do you have for thinking Bible study is bad?
- [77:17]
A
Okay. How do you know if you're in a healthy Bible study?
- [77:22]
B
You know if you're in a good one? If you know, you're anchored in the word and you're searching out the word and you're trying to understand what it teaches and apply what it teaches, ideally with a gospel driven focus. So you're not just, you know, sitting around gabbing. You're also not doing a theology show off fest, you know, single guys trying to cite, you know, John Calvin, every other line to show off for the young ladies in the group or something like that.
- [77:46]
A
Oh my gosh. I know exactly, exactly the type of person.
- [77:49]
B
Let's not do that. Slow your roll out there, big timer. Yeah, you're trying to know the Bible and apply the Bible.
- [77:55]
A
How do you know you're in a theologically sound church?
- [77:58]
B
Very similar if, if the pastor is working through the Bible and faithfully trying to unpack what the Bible teaches and apply what the Bible teaches, all with the focus on the grace of God expressed in the Gospel. There's, there's lots of, you know, second level and third level doctrinal issues that godly Christians are going to disagree about. So I'm not going to define that. Like for this answer. We can disagree about eschatology, we can disagree even to some level about baptism or something like that, or spiritual gifts. But in a sound church, the Bible is being preached. It is being preached as the authoritative, inerrant, sufficient word of God. And it is being applied in that sense with a whole focus on the cross of Jesus and the empowering spirit and the glory of the Father. If you've got those elements, you've got us. There's more, but those are the foundational elements of a sound church.
- [78:52]
A
What is your book called that addresses a lot of these topics?
- [78:55]
B
My book is called the War on Men. The War on men. It's from 2023. It's with Salem I'm writing a forthcoming book with Skyhorse. We're working out the title. It may be called Plant Gardens. But yeah, the War on Men covers a lot of the stuff that we've talked about. And it's not just for men. It's for men. But I've actually had a fair number of women tell me that they found it encouraging.
- [79:18]
A
Well, I think that's going to be the case for this episode. I think this is the perfect episode for your husbands to listen to, obviously. But I know a lot of wives will listen to and feel encouraged and be like, okay, I have, like, I have some good tips and tricks on what to do and what might be helpful and what maybe isn't working that I could do better about. Where should people follow you on social media?
- [79:38]
B
I'm on X. It's at Ostran. O S T R A C H A N. I'm on Instagram at Profstran. I have a YouTube channel under my name, Owen Stran. And I have a substack like everybody and their aunt called to re enchant the world. So those are some places you can go.
- [79:58]
A
Thank you so much for coming on Culture Apothecary.
- [80:00]
B
Thank you very much for having me.
- [80:04]
A
I never done a theological episode that was specifically addressed to men or really an episode I don't think addressed to men in general. So usually I am speaking to a female audience, although a lot of men listen to this show. But I really wanted this episode to be for you guys. So if you are a man who loves Culture Apothecary, please let us know. I want an honest five star review. What did you think of this? Did you find it helpful? Did you learn anything new? Do you feel informed? Encouraged? We're on a mission to heal a sick culture Twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays at 6pm Pacific, 9pm Eastern. Every guest brings their own unique remedy to heal our sick culture. Subscribe to Real Alex Clark on YouTube. Follow me on Instagram at Real Alex Clark or the show Ultra Apothecary. My name is Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.