← Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
BONUS: Livestream Q&A with Mike Cosper, Matthew D. Taylor, and Robert Downen
00:54:29
Loading summary
Transcript125 lines
- [00:02]
Mike Kosper
This episode is brought to you in.
- [00:04]
Rebecca Sebastian
Part by the Apologetics Guy show, the.
- [00:06]
Mike Kosper
Podcast that helps you find clear answers.
- [00:09]
Matthew Taylor
To tough questions about Christianity.
- [00:11]
Rebecca Sebastian
Learn to explain your faith with courage and compassion. Join Moody Bible Institute Professor Dr. Michel.
- [00:17]
Mike Kosper
Del Rosario@ apologeticsguy.com.
- [00:23]
Robert Downen
What if you could.
- [00:24]
Amy Isham
See firsthand how God's moving across the globe right right now?
- [00:29]
Mike Kosper
Christianity Today's global initiative shares powerful untold.
- [00:33]
Robert Downen
Stories of faith from Latin America and.
- [00:35]
Amy Isham
Africa, Asia, Europe and elsewhere. Discover a fuller view of God's Kingdom at One Kingdom Christianity Today.com.
- [00:51]
Rebecca Sebastian
This is CT Media.
- [00:58]
Robert Downen
A note to listeners this story contains sensitive content including sexual abuse, child murder and dark spiritual themes, and may not be suitable for all listeners.
- [01:09]
Matthew Taylor
Hey, this is Mike Kosper, host of the show, and I'm here to introduce our first bonus episode. Technically this is our second bonus episode, sort of because we did a Q and A show mid season, but that's neither here nor there. This is the first real one since the finale. Anyway, throughout the season we did these Monday night live streams which we'll do again next season. And this episode is from one of those live streams. It's from the one that aired the week after our finale. Rebecca Sebastian, my co producer, and I were joined by some special guests, voices that you heard on the show, and we did a deeper dive on a few issues that connect our story with modern day events. We covered a lot of ground the New Apostolic Reformation, January 6, Texas Politics, and much, much more. One of our guests also takes time to remember one of the survivors of Paul Pressler's abuses who passed away tragically a few days before this livestream. It's the first in a series of follow up conversations we'll be having right here because these issues aren't going from Christianity Today. I'm Mike Kosper and you're listening to Devil in the Deep Blue Sea. On this season we're talking about the Satanic panic and how chasing phantoms distracted us from real devils in our midst on this show. Our first bonus episode, a Conversation with Matthew Taylor and Robert Downing.
- [02:47]
Robert Downen
Paranoid conspiracies are all you seem to.
- [02:50]
Amy Isham
Think of Taking hold of me instead Run, run it from the reaper Join me But you spun around and you never hear it coming when you're covering up your ear.
- [03:18]
Robert Downen
Here we go. Welcome to our post Memorial Day Post Season one Wrap livestream. Mike, how are you?
- [03:27]
Matthew Taylor
I'm good. How about yourself?
- [03:29]
Robert Downen
Doing really well. It feels feels different this live stream. It's like kind of summer. We're not making episodes actively at the moment, so that's kind of nice, right?
- [03:40]
Matthew Taylor
It feels. It feels good to not be behind schedule when we're talking.
- [03:43]
Robert Downen
Okay. You said it, I didn't.
- [03:44]
Matthew Taylor
It's always good.
- [03:45]
Robert Downen
Yep. And we of course want to say hi to everybody who's watching us on our Facebook page. Welcome. And as well on the CT YouTube channel. Hello to everybody. We're glad you came. Tonight's gonna be a jam packed hour.
- [04:00]
Matthew Taylor
Yeah, we've got lots of special guests, lots of surprise guests.
- [04:03]
Robert Downen
Yeah, we've got appearances tonight.
- [04:05]
Matthew Taylor
So we wrapped the series. How did you celebrate? Did you do anything to celebrate getting the last episode out?
- [04:10]
Robert Downen
I think there was a collapsing involved and just like a two day sort of quiet. Did you have that where you just.
- [04:18]
Matthew Taylor
I built bookshelves. I. I unpacked books. I've been meaning to unpack for a couple of years and realized I don't. I don't have enough bookshelves, which is, you know, I guess a good problem to have. I don't know.
- [04:29]
Robert Downen
And that's what I would say. So you like to work with your hands after you make something like this. It's like you want to do something kind of manual that has a beginning.
- [04:35]
Matthew Taylor
Middle, and I planted my tomatoes. I finally. Wow, we planted tomatoes. This was kind of my thing.
- [04:40]
Robert Downen
Yeah, I did have a. I had a college graduation in our family. My daughter graduated. So that took up a lot of planning and festivity and fun and travel. So that was exciting.
- [04:50]
Matthew Taylor
And you're about to head to meet the Pope.
- [04:53]
Robert Downen
Yes. Officially a one on one. Yes. No, we're gonna go pope chasing in Rome while we're vacationing. But. But yes, I am going to the home of the new Pope.
- [05:04]
Matthew Taylor
That'll be exciting. Tomorrow I hope to. Hope to see pictures. So if you're not following Rebecca on social media, check that out and I'm sure you'll see pictures with her and his Holiness.
- [05:15]
Robert Downen
Yeah. Forthwith, you'll definitely see gelato at the very least.
- [05:19]
Matthew Taylor
There you go.
- [05:21]
Robert Downen
Well, this is really cool because our first guest is actually a listener of the show and a member of our Facebook group. And it's just such a cool example of the interesting range of people we had listen. And they bring so many unique perspectives and experiences. So I think she's in the studio. We can bring her out. Her name is Amy Isham and she's joining us from Australia. Everybody. Amy. Hi.
- [05:50]
Matthew Taylor
Hey, Amy.
- [05:51]
Robert Downen
We can hear you.
- [05:52]
Amy Isham
Can you hear me?
- [05:54]
Robert Downen
We so can hear you beautifully. And the world is amazing. We have you. It's tomorrow where you are.
- [06:03]
Amy Isham
It is. I'M in the future.
- [06:06]
Robert Downen
Yes, you've come from the future. We can't wait to see what you can share with us. Maybe you could just give a little brief bio about what you do and what I'll. I guess I'll just set you up by saying you sent me such an interesting story and many, many listeners did, and this one is fairly recent history. This happened in the early 90s and it was a real life exorcism and you studied this case pretty closely. And I thought it might be something our viewers on the live stream and our podcast listeners might be interested to learn about. And there's so much to this case. I mean, there could be a podcast series on this, actually. So, Amy, why don't you tell us who you are, what you do and about this story.
- [06:47]
Amy Isham
Yeah, so I'm a, I work at a Catholic theological library, so I'm a librarian, but I'm a Presbyterian pastor's wife and I also have a PhD in leadership. So I was out in country Victoria studying leaders, and then I stumbled across this case and it haunted me ever since. And I wondered, when would I get to tell Joan's story? So Joan Leonora Taylor. And so few people mention her maiden name only there's been a few more podcasts more recently, but only case file actually found out her maiden name. And then all the, there's so much media coverage. There's op eds, there's from the scene, court coverage, but a lot of the details are wrong. And because I lived out in the country and I was the pastor's wife and it's a very strong community, Bible belt. I met a lot of the people I knew. I know the son in law of one of the men who was a Lutheran minister who ended up having to. I've gotten the word for that thing where they. Yeah, excommunicated. They excommunicated this couple. But I want to launch right in, if that's okay. Yeah, please, let's go for it. So you guys have been talking about the grift. I would say this is the grifted. So 1993 is not too late for the Satanic panic to still be in full swing because everything came to Australia late, but it comes to rural Australia even later. So this is 1993. And to set the scene, we have Joan Vollmar and her husband Ralph, and they live in a remote pig farm. It's not good pig country. It's very dry. It's a wee belt. Even the pub is closed. And Antwerp, which is the name of the town, they are quite near Warwick, Nabeel, which is, incidentally where Nick Cave was born. But it's not very rock and roll. It is very, very boring, very dry, very flat. The shimmer of heats on the horizon gets to over 40 degrees Celsius in the summer. So Joan had been hospitalized with hypomania, which in 1993 was probably some kind of psychosis. And she was off her meds, though, and they'd done some kind of deliverance ministry where she'd had total relief of her symptoms, which, well, is explained by still having the benefit of the medication, but having no more side effects because you've gone off your meds and she's having symptoms again. And they came back from the Adelaide Charismatic Convention, which, if you're in the country, it's a long drive, but people drive. And I looked at the curriculum for the year before, and there was some Korean shamanism stuff going on. It's quite a. It's a strange convention. So he came back. Ralph came back with demons on the brain. And she's saying. She's acting weirdly. She's saying, look at my painting. And, oh, she's painted the car pink. Or I'm baby Princess Joan in a little baby voice. Or I'm pregnant. She's 49. The neighbors are worried. People are worried. But Ralph's like, I'm not going to call the doctor this time. He calls in Leanne and John Reichenbach, who are loosely connected to Japarat Lutheran Church. They've just done prayer ministry to assist Roger Ratzi, the Lutheran minister there. But they also have a kind of deliverance ministry, which in the past has been successful and harmless. But they come in with just prayer and Bible reading. But it very quickly escalates to the point that she's being tied up hand and foot on a chair because they're worried about her making satanic colors and making satanic gestures, which I would really love to know what they are. It's stinking hot, as I said, and there's slapping going on for at least an hour a day. And this is what they're calling spiritual warfare. They're trying to figure out the name of these demons and drive them out, and they're not getting anywhere. And she's being coerced into saying a lot of stories that you would have heard before. Satanic. She's had a satanic surgery. She had a baby that was eaten by Satanists as a child. But they're coming up with these stories through this questioning process. They've decided that her parents went to India and that's where she was infected with this demon. I couldn't find any evidence of her parents, where they were from. So finally, it's been three days. She's still crying out. She's screaming all night long tied to a mattress. They're in phone connection with Leah Clugston and another woman called Susan Nuski. These are all like, at least an hour away and remote roads. And so Susan says, my son has a particular sensitivity to evil. And he drives from Warrandyte Melbourne, which is a lot. It's very far east, they're far west. It's a good six hours. It's a very, very long way to drive. And he drives very quickly. And he gets there and he takes one look at Joan and Joan says to him, calls him a piss pot, which in Australian slang means alcoholic. And they take this as evidence that she has some kind of prophetic demon. And it all ramps up from there. Matthew Nuski. Glad wraps the house. Don't ask me why. There's always glad Wrap in these. He destroys her cat figurines. He destroys her flower garden, which he says are strongholds of Satan. Things get very physical. We've gone from slapping and tying up to pushing bodily, holding down, pushing demons out of the belly, out of the womb. Finally, they're massaging her neck and she has a fit, froths at the mouth and dies. And they describe it as the demon left her with a shriek. And they're still not convinced that this has gone wrong. So they're on the phone with Leah Clugston, who's told that Jonah's been slain in the spirit, which, if you're in sort of Pentecostal circles, you'll see as a very harmless spiritual moment where you're having a moment, you're not dead. Leanne has a vision of Lazarus, which everyone takes to mean that she will rise from the dead. Ralph brings a change of clothes to the funeral and is absolutely shocked and appalled when she does not rise. You'll see photos of him, which I sent to Rebecca, of some of the news stories. He's absolutely devastated. And I have friends who still know Leanne Reichenbach, and she would still say she did the right thing. So it's. It's. But, yeah, it's a dark story. Yeah. And so the police at the same. When they arrive, they think that they're talking to witnesses, not perpetrators. So that corrupts the evidence as well, and they have to throw it out. There's a county court case and it's ruled as a normal Christian practice. And then when they spill out on the street, the local Christians are appalled, like, this is not. This is not normal. So it goes to the Supreme Court, and there's a manslaughter ruling, but only Leanne serves four months, and the others get suspended sentences. So you see this bad theology, bad anthropology, and bad ecclesiology, all just tragic results. Yeah.
- [13:53]
Matthew Taylor
One of the things that I've always found fascinating is that when you talk to Christians that are outside of, like, first world contexts and in societies where there's. Where there's a lot of, like, sort of active paganism, animism, that sort of thing, the sort of experience with encounter with the supernatural, with demons, with this kind of stuff is. Is pretty common that comes out of those stories. But what you so often hear from the missionaries who encounter this stuff on a regular basis is when you encounter this stuff, you confront it as Jesus did, with the word of God, with prayer, you know, all the sort of, like, dramatic confrontations, the physical confrontations, the. I have never heard from people that I found credible anyway, those kinds of stories. And. Yes, and in the Gospels, of course, like, it's. The Word is what has power. It's the proclamation of the Word from the Son of God that has the power to cast out demons. And so you hear these stories and you just think about, what are the. Because, as you say, the people who do. Who do this stuff are utterly convinced, and it's like, what is the chain. What's the logical, rational chain of events that leads a person to that place where they go, oh, this is the. You know, the next thing we should do is wrap the house in Saran Wrap and start strangling this person.
- [15:07]
Amy Isham
It's not working. Let's do it harder. Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you look at the. So I work at a Catholic library. We've got the Roman ritual here from 1926. You have. The liturgies of baptism still contain a little mini exorcism, because there's that sense that you've got the paganism that's still present in society. But when you get to the 1960s and you get to Vatican II, there's a revision of all the liturgical processes, but you still have. Catholic exorcists are very, very highly trained. And it's a very controlled process. And as you said, they're not going nuts and getting terrified and wrapping the house. They have a very controlled process. Yeah.
- [15:51]
Robert Downen
What struck me was the. The defense. What was the exact strategy when the defendants finally did have to go to Supreme Court. It was like, essentially, it was like a freedom of religion case almost.
- [16:03]
Amy Isham
Yeah. And that was funny.
- [16:04]
Robert Downen
Was the right to practice.
- [16:05]
Amy Isham
Yeah. I don't think even freedom of religion was a thing. Otherwise it would have been a lot more dire for them. I think the whole thing was motive. It was like the motive. Motive is so big part of the law. Did they intend to harm? No. Their intent was to heal. And that's why the whole point is it's. It's spiritual warfare with physical harm. They go, well, look, we can't say for sure that it wasn't the act of a demon leaving her body that killed her. That that is what some of the things were saying. And there was. They got a rogue Catholic priest to say, oh, no, no, this is totally normal. Spitting, hitting, all this. Carry on, tying up. Yeah, that's normal. But that's not normal Catholic exorcism either. So.
- [16:47]
Robert Downen
Yeah, well, there's a lot more to the story, as you might imagine. You've heard. You know, we've heard the very condensed version. And Amy, thank you for sharing it and bringing it to our attention, because I do think it's one that in the United States, we didn't hear as much, and it's wild how recent it was, but we really appreciate you coming on and sharing it.
- [17:07]
Amy Isham
Thanks so much for having me. Big fan.
- [17:09]
Robert Downen
Of course.
- [17:10]
Matthew Taylor
Thank you.
- [17:11]
Robert Downen
Thanks for listening.
- [17:12]
Amy Isham
Yes. Thanks again and have a great day.
- [17:14]
Robert Downen
Tomorrow in Australia today.
- [17:17]
Mike Kosper
Yes.
- [17:17]
Amy Isham
Lunchtime here.
- [17:19]
Robert Downen
Yes, Good. Enjoy. We have Matthew Taylor, who I think folks will recognize from the podcast. Mike, of course. He's the senior Christian scholar at the Institute for Islamic Christian and Jewish Studies in Baltimore, Maryland. And he wrote a book called the Violent Take it by the Christian Movement that is Threatening Our Democracy. And he is going to come on and join us, and we're going to pick up a little bit where we. Where we left off in the series. Hey, Matthew, good to see you again.
- [17:50]
Rebecca Sebastian
Hello. How are you all?
- [17:52]
Matthew Taylor
Good. Good. It's good to have you back.
- [17:54]
Rebecca Sebastian
Good to be here.
- [17:55]
Matthew Taylor
I'll just jump in because, Matthew, where I'd love to pick up the conversation, you know, kind of where we left things off in our storytelling was essentially sort of right at the day of January 6th. And obviously the story goes on from there. Here we are, we're four years and a few months later. What has happened with the general trajectory of the new Apostolic Reformation over the last four and a half years after all that happens? Like, how did they respond when Biden became president? And how is the Movement sort of adjusted, corrected, retold that story. I'm very curious where it goes from there.
- [18:31]
Rebecca Sebastian
Yeah, there's. There's a lot to tell. So, I mean, in both my book and in the podcast series that I did, Charismatic Revival Fury, we kind of end the story with January 6th the way that you did. I mean, it's kind of the focus of the book. But the NAR is extremely active. I mean, they have been the chief propagandists, the chief spiritual propagandists for Donald Trump since he really entered politics, presidential politics, in 2015. Some of these prophecies about Trump started In July of 2015, about a month after he entered the presidential race. So we're going on a decade now of these prophecies around Trump. Those continued after January six. You even had some NAR leaders saying things like Johnny Enlow, who's kind of an understudy to Lance Wall now, I guess you could put it. Johnny Enlow made a comment, I believe in, like, March of 21, that Donald Trump was still enthroned over the United States from the perspective of heaven, that he was the anointed king over the United States, and that from God's perspective, he was the president, even if the rest of the country didn't recognize it. And by the way, he just updated that to say that I think it was a week or two ago that Donald Trump is actually enthroned as the king over the whole Earth because he's God's number one kingdom asset on the earth. So that's Johnny Enlow.
- [19:50]
Matthew Taylor
This was a question I got from a number of listeners because I know your book squares this pretty well, but. Well, as well as one can. We didn't go into it so much on the show. How do NAR leaders who come from, I mean, especially when you think about, like, the Pentecostal movement and the Charismatic movement as a. It's a very pietistic. It's a holiness movement. How do they square Donald Trump as a person with, you know, with his history, with his reputation, the way he's talked about women, his participation in things like Playboy, his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein, like, we could go on and on and on. How does a. A movement with that sort of theological vision of holiness and whatnot square who he is with what their movement is about?
- [20:36]
Rebecca Sebastian
Well, I mean, if you're motivated, you can rationalize just about anything, including theologically. So they would say that he's repentant of all of the nefarious doings, and they will throw up a flag and say, hey, I don't like all of his rhetoric. I don't like some of the things that he says, right? So they don't want to give this kind of blanket endorsement of everything that he does. But a lot of it actually fits under the charismatic theology of anointing. And if you think about the world of especially charismatic televangelism, right, where you have these figures who scandal after scandal after scandal, I mean, constant issues, right? And yet they keep remaining in ministry, they keep getting restored to ministry. We see right now a number of major figures in the non denominational charismatic space have had huge scandals that have broken about them within the last few years. A couple of them. Those scandals are too big for them to survive. Many of them get put back into those positions, get restored, have the same following. But it connects to this idea of anointing, right? Because if God has put an anointing on someone, if God has given you this special gifting in their theology, that anointing is irrevocable, right? God put it on the person. And so that anointing needs to find expression. And so the idea that there are these kind of spiritual elites who have been given this special anointing, the special purpose from God, and God's going to get that done through them and they're going to have their foibles, they're going to have their humanity, but the anointing is there and it needs to be enacted. And so it's telling that the first prophecy about Trump is this Cyrus anointing prophecy, that he has an anointing as Osiris to basically bring conservative Christians back from cultural exile in the United States.
- [22:27]
Matthew Taylor
So. So specifically then, I mean, they're looking at, I mean, almost, I would assume all of the, all of the sort of biblical references to frame that theologically are sort of Old Testament references. You're looking at Cyrus, you're looking at David, you're looking at, you know, the imperfections of Moses and that sort of thing. Is that fair?
- [22:46]
Rebecca Sebastian
But I mean, they'll also pull Romans, the gifts and the calling of God is irrevocable, right? I mean, like, they're well versed in their B. They quote it very selectively, but they know a lot of verses. Yeah.
- [22:57]
Matthew Taylor
So the concept then is that like God has anointed this person, therefore the gift doesn't matter. Doesn't matter how faithfully they've lived. The gift is going to be expressed, the gift is going to be carried out. I can't help but laugh as I think about this because there's no small amount of. Well, I don't think there's anything ironic about it. I think it was very intentional on the part of Mark Driscoll. When everything sort of melted down at Mars Hill, he moved into that stream, that charismatic stream, to sort of rebuild what, what he did to limited success. I mean, I think he, he didn't find a great foothold there, but it makes sense in the grand scheme of.
- [23:33]
Rebecca Sebastian
He has story yet to be written there. Mike. He's fairly popular in the independent charismatic space. I mean, not, he's not, he's not a, like a list celebrity, but he's maybe B or C list today.
- [23:46]
Matthew Taylor
No, yeah, totally. He hasn't rebuilt what he had. Right. Like, he hasn't rebuilt the brand, the machine. And I mean, a lot of that's just, he doesn't have the people around him that he had at the time. But anyway, we don't have to get into the Driscoll thing too far. I just, I think it's, I do think it's a really fascinating thing. So then fast forward to today then. The nar, they must be feeling pretty excited about where, where we are, where things stand. What does it look like now? What are you paying attention to as a researcher?
- [24:14]
Rebecca Sebastian
So, I mean, they stuck with Trump after January 6th. They did not really abandon Trump. I think one prophet threw out a kind of trial balloon prophecy about Ron DeSantis just to kind of see if it would stick. Didn't work. And so they, they really have continued to bolster Trump. And I would argue that if anything, this kind of prophecy narrative has become even more entrenched since January 6th. I mean, this is the great irony, right? Like they prophesied that he would win in 2020. He doesn't win in 2020. They continue to prophesy his victories and those prophecies have become more popular in the interim. The assassination attempts on Trump really helped to cement and lock that in. And in fact, I have heard other Christian leaders who are not charismatic, who have not, did not buy into the prophecies, say after, especially the Butler, Pennsylvania assassination attempt on Trump, say, well, no, God must really be involved in this man's life in order to make something like that possible. The NAR was extremely involved in the 2024 campaign. Lance Wall now did a swing state revival tour, right? It was framed as like a Pentecostal style revival. I went to one of the stops, JD Vance went to one of the stops, and it was about 45 minutes of kind of Pentecostal style revival and the rest of the day was conspiracy theories. And we have to vote for Trump, otherwise the demons will win. And I mean, it was just straight up political organizing masquerading as Pentecostal style revival.
- [25:47]
Matthew Taylor
When you say conspiracy theories specifically, what, what, what did you witness?
- [25:51]
Rebecca Sebastian
Lance Ball now straight up said January 6th was not an insurrection, it was an election fraud intervention. At the, at this event, there were all kinds of conspiracy theories rooted in kind of Christian nationalist history, conspiracy theories about communists taking over the United States, about Islamic and like bordering on QAnon. A lot of the NAR folks have not gone full QAnon, but they dabble with it. I mean, they don't need a Q prophet. They've got all their own prophets, right? But their worldview is adjacent to that in the way that they think in these kind of Manichean good versus evil prophecy terms. And so they'll play with those ideas. Very extreme anti trans rhetoric and conspiracy theories around trans folks. But really the main one that they have just glommed onto as the narrative of the stolen 2020 election. And so many of the prophets, when Trump won in 2024, said, hey, we prophesied that he would get two terms, but we didn't necessarily say two consecutive. A bunch of them did say two consecutive terms, but a bunch of them were willing to say, like, oh, I didn't say two consecutive terms. So they are still very, very heavily involved in his advisory circles. There's, there's not, as far as I can tell, a formally named advisory board. There wasn't the first term. Now there's this national Faith Advisory board that Paula White Cane started in that seems to have kind of segued straight into being the advisory circle around Trump. Paula White Kane herself is now the chair, the head of the Faith office out of the White House, a newly formed faith office. And you have some of the NAR folks are heavily involved over at Heritage, helping to drive things like Project 2025.
- [27:32]
Robert Downen
How aware of the NARS connection to and influence on the Trump administration is the average Trump supporter or citizen or anyone kind of following politics. Do people know the depths of that?
- [27:46]
Rebecca Sebastian
They wouldn't know the phrase NAR probably or New Apostolic Reformation, because even the people who were historically part of the New Apostolic Reformation rarely use that terminology anymore. In some ways, NAR has become kind of a charismatic bugaboo. There's been so much attention to it that they want to really avoid that phrase. But they would know some of the personalities from the nar, especially Lance Walnut. Now, Lance Wall now has become maybe second to Charlie Kirk among the most prominent Christian supporters, Christian nationalist supporters of Donald Trump. And, and Wall now is just incredibly prolific in creating these memes, these prophecies that, that travel like memes around Donald Trump. He's the one who really pressed this Cyrus Anointing narrative. He's the one who has. Has really helped Trump to weather a lot of these different kind of storms. And he's the one who really came up with the Seven mountains framework. That is the underlying justification for a lot of the Christian support for Donald Trump. So Wall now is very, very prominent. Beyond that, they might know a couple as if they're charismatic. They would definitely know some of the names. Then again, like, the NAR is a network of leaders. They would probably be very familiar with NAR ideas and the ways that they have traveled into these spaces. They would probably know the Seven Mountains, know a bunch of the prophecies about Trump, those sorts of things. But they probably would. They might not know the personalities or even the concept of the nar. They might even not even know what needs to be charismatic. Right. But charismatic ideas travel a lot farther than charismatic networks.
- [29:26]
Matthew Taylor
Right? Right. For sure. I mean, if you look at, if you look at contemporary, I mean, I always, I always point people to contemporary worship in the United States. It all comes from churches that are either heavily influenced by the charismatic movement or deep within the charismatic movement with heavily influenced, you know, elevation deeply within it, Bethel, Hillsong, like, I mean, but those three dominate absolutely. Church music today. And that, that all comes from. From. And there's a whole theology that those songs carry as well. So, yeah, it's pretty darn fascinating.
- [29:58]
Robert Downen
Okay, well, we have another guest whose work and insight and really they're defining work about the sbc. This is Robert Downen. He's a reporter at the Texas Tribune. He's also in the studio. And we thought we could have him come on and join the conversation to talk about kind of where we left off with him as well, and move into some, some current events as well. But, Mike, I think Robert's going to join us and we'll see if we can see and hear him.
- [30:23]
Matthew Taylor
There he is. Hey, Robert.
- [30:25]
Mike Kosper
Hey, guys. How you doing?
- [30:26]
Robert Downen
Hi, how are you? Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me, Matthew. Robert.
- [30:32]
Rebecca Sebastian
Yeah. I don't think we've met. I've appreciated your work.
- [30:35]
Mike Kosper
We've met via Twitter, DM many times.
- [30:37]
Rebecca Sebastian
There we go.
- [30:39]
Matthew Taylor
The IRL connections, which is not irl. It's still virtual, but it feels because there's video.
- [30:44]
Mike Kosper
Are just Twitter DMs at this point.
- [30:47]
Matthew Taylor
So. Yeah. So, Robert, we've been talking about the new Apostolic Reformation, kind of where things have gone in the podcast, we really kind of carry things up to January 6th. We've been talking about where things have gone since then. I know in your work you've focused very specifically on what's on politics in Texas. Christian nationalism in Texas, maybe start by because oftentimes we do think of politics as we think of politics on the national level as being kind of the main thing. And frankly, what happens at the state and local level oftentimes does affect us much more directly. What are some of the initiatives related to Christian nationalism that you've been covering that are sort of, I mean, hot battlegrounds in Texas right now? Maybe. Texas and Oklahoma are probably the two states that are they're pushing the hardest in these directions.
- [31:37]
Mike Kosper
Yeah. I mean, so, you know, Texas has always been among the incubators for these kind of policies. So, you know, to your point about people paying attention to federal politics, they've kind of often, I felt, got it backwards as far as what really is going to come first and affect them. But, you know, in Texas, we are about four days away from the end of the legislative session. We've seen a, you know, a number of bills, the Ten Commandments and Classrooms bill, a bill to require to allow optional school prayer. You know, and last session we were, I think, one of the first, if not the first state to pass this bill to allow unlicensed chaplains to replace school counselors. You know, before that, we've, we've seen in Texas, we just passed a new curriculum that pairs, you know, teachings on the Bible and other religious texts, mostly the Bible with history lessons. So we've got kids learning about Nebuchadnezzar along with Letter from Birmingham Jail. But because of other curriculum changes here, not learning who Martin Luther King Jr. Was writing to in Letters of Birmingham Jail. So you can kind of see how there's there's a number of, I guess, potential pitfalls. But, you know, within this legislative session, you know what Texas, the actual legislation that is coming down the pipeline here isn't really that much different than what we're seeing in a lot of other states. You know, it's pretty clear that I don't know if it's Project Blitz or one of these other similar groups that are really kind of, you know, following a playbook, starting with chaplains. I think in Nebraska, they're currently doing chaplains, Ten Commandments and school prayer. But really what's been, you know, notable to me this session is not the policy as much as the tone and tenor of the debates. You know, there was even, even as recently as the 2023 session, our last, you know, there was at least a, I guess pretending, you know, couching some of, you know, the, the thin veneer of religious liberty that some of these folks have used as a thin veneer for Christian nationalism has really come out, come off in pretty pronounced ways this session. We've seen lawmakers just openly advocating for using schools to evangelize. We've seen, you know, them talking about dropping church participation rates in debates. A really just kind of, I think a solidifying of theories, you know, the David Barton world of theories that even a few years ago were considered at least, if not totally fringe, at least not, you know, the mainstream.
- [34:09]
Rebecca Sebastian
So.
- [34:10]
Matthew Taylor
And for listeners who aren't familiar with David Barton, Barton is someone who has published a number of works, ostensibly works of history. You can go to Warren Throckmorton's website to find a very, very thorough critique of Barton's work. But what Barton has essentially tried to do is take the stories of the founders and turn them all into evangelical Christians, particularly Jefferson. And I mean some of Barton's work is downright laughable in terms of how sort of absurd the historical work is. And yet this, you know, because this is the story people want to tell and the story people want to hear, he's now being I suppose mandated, you know, at the state level that his work is taught in the classroom.
- [35:01]
Rebecca Sebastian
David Barton is a very old associate of the new Apostolic Reformation going back to the 80, late 80s, early 90s. He himself comes out of some of these charismatic circles, was friends with Cindy Jacobs for a very, has been since the early 90s, is close with Wall now and some of these folks. And in fact he and Wall now helped co found this organization called Truth and Liberty Coalition out of Colorado that is doing some extreme Christian nationalist organizing there.
- [35:26]
Mike Kosper
I think it's probably worth just unpacking in case there aren't people who understand what Barton's general theories are, which is basically that the wall of the church state separation envisioned by the founders has been misconstrued. The founders being in his mind evangelical Christians really when they talked about not there being no established religion, what they really meant according to Barden was no established Christian denomination. And the wall of church state separation is only supposed to extend one way. I have been writing about this man for quite some time. I have yet to hear anybody explain how a one way wall Works, but we can, we can move past that. But I think, you know, and all of these things are kind of offered as proof of this ongoing, you know, decades, if not centuries long campaign to hide our true Judeo Christian roots. And I think was really, you know, what people sometimes don't really like, they fail to understand about what that kind of, the through line, that intellectual through line of that argument. It means that you have to whitewash the founding of this country. You cannot have a Judeo, a country God ordained by God. While Thomas Jefferson, who is the guy that this movement holds up so often, is refusing to slit to, you know, sell people. He was enslaving. You know, you can't. It really, it really kind of works in lockstep with a lot of what we're seeing as far as challenges to curriculum and challenges to what were once conventional and broadly understood to be acceptable, you know, teachings on American history.
- [36:57]
Matthew Taylor
The other thing I always point out when this conversation comes up as well is like, if you, if you want to refute David Barton, read George Washington's letters to the four synagogues that he wrote where he embraces religious pluralism and says, you know, there's, there's no desire to convert anybody to make them Americans. I mean, it's, it's all, it's all pretty well right there.
- [37:16]
Mike Kosper
Yeah, Barton, Barton, Barton is very convincing, I'll say that. And, you know, I, I talk to reporters in other states all the time, trying to get them to be like, no, like, you need to. Like, just because this guy, you know, has a big briefcase of documents doesn't mean you have to take his word as gospel. So.
- [37:30]
Matthew Taylor
Yeah, and that's where, again, I mean, just to Pat Warren Throckmorton on the back, as much as I can. I mean, his, he and his, his co author, whose name is escaping me at the moment, have, have just done remarkable work, kind of taking Barton, taking Barton to task on all of this.
- [37:45]
Mike Kosper
They've also got a podcast series. That's really good.
- [37:47]
Matthew Taylor
Yeah, for sure. There's a, there's a podcast series and, and maybe we can add that to the notes at some point for people who are listening later. One of the questions I always wonder about in all of this is, you know, because of the fact that we do live in a democracy, when I hear Christians talking about, okay, we'll put, let's get Christians elected, and then we're gonna, we're gonna mandate, essentially, we're going to mandate our, not just our morality, but our spirituality. We're going to put the ten Commandments in the classroom. We're going to teach our kids to pray, we're going to do all of these things. And the thing I always find myself asking is, okay, well, you're going to like this. While the Christians who think the way you do are in those positions. But let's just imagine that like, I don't know, there's a weird wind in 12 years and a bunch of like very left of center Episcopalians fill those positions and they're praying very different prayers and saying very different things about the personhood of God, let alone down the line, you know, moral implications about traditional gender roles and all the other things that these guys are very concerned about. So what is their response to the idea that, you know, look, you're in power now, but what if you lose the next election and you've, you've set all this precedent? What do they think is going to happen? Do they think, oh, we're just never going to lose again?
- [39:01]
Mike Kosper
Matthew, you want to handle that one? I feel like you've got a more insight.
- [39:04]
Matthew Taylor
So, so either one of both, I.
- [39:06]
Rebecca Sebastian
Think for especially like the NAR types, it'll be more the, the, the rad trad Catholics taking over, right? That, that's the more kind of realistic scenario from their perspective. Well, a, these folks are not deep philosophical thinkers, right? They're not, they're not sitting there kind of thinking this through in this kind of broader frame. They're prophets, they're revivalists, they're preachers, right? They're, they're very good at creating an emotional experience and emotional attachment to things that they are not people who are just kind of ruminating all day on the possible consequences of their actions there. And from a, from the charismatic side, I'll say this so that it's a little different in each of the movements, how they, they rationalize that.
- [39:52]
Matthew Taylor
But, and I know that's true, but, but then you. If they're partnering with someone like Heritage, I mean, Heritage gets paid to think 4 years, 8 years, 12 years down the line, you know, and that's. But, but, but again, like, but Heritage is behind everything being. Not to get too deep into the politics on this, but Heritage is behind everything being an executive order right now, which all goes away with a stroke of the pen. And in three and a half years, if they lose.
- [40:14]
Rebecca Sebastian
The thing is, in their minds, once they're in, they're in, right? Because in their framework, it's revival and then reformation and then they're in power, right? And they're. Because, because God is the one who steps in then and sets them up.
- [40:30]
Matthew Taylor
Right.
- [40:31]
Rebecca Sebastian
And this is what Trump is app when he said in the campaign, christians, just vote for me once and you're going to have to vote for me again. You're gonna have to vote again. Right. Because we will solve it. Right. So, and, and I think when we say we're in a democracy, they aren't necessarily on board with that. They're not necessarily overtly saying we don't believe in democracy. But their vision of a society is at best an illiberal democracy, probably more likely more of a theocratic, autocratic state. Right. That's what they want, a monarch. They want an anointed king to reset American culture, entrench them in power so that they never have to grapple with being on the losing side again. And that this is when they talk about revival and reformation and all these things. That's what they're saying. Right. A permanent shift in American culture.
- [41:27]
Mike Kosper
I would also just add, you know, being in Texas, which is home to some of the most active far right donors to these causes, I think that people seem to, you know, people who are not paying close attention to this stuff don't seem to understand that the infrastructure of this movement has been slowly built since, you know, really the 80s. Really. I mean, if you had to put a precise data on it, I don't know if you could, but really since the formation of Council for National Policy, which was an outgrowth of the religious right and conservative of resurgence in the sbc, I mean, there has been a network that has been working for half of a century now to prop up this movement. But also, you know, the other half of, you know, the Council for National Policy folks is, it's not just that they are calling for Christian dominionism, they're also calling for unfettered capitalism that basically would effectively end anything, anything that resembles our current and, you know, already flawed labor rights and workers rights system. And so I think that, you know, those two things, those two sides of the movement, when moving in tandem, have the power to, I think, have much more staying power than I think a lot of people are understanding.
- [42:37]
Matthew Taylor
Yeah. And I think to come back to some of the, some of the core themes here as well, and again, some of your phenomenal reporting, Robert, on all of this, what we so often see in, in these stories is there is this sort of othering of everybody on the outside and a weaponization of kind of that fear of what's happening in the culture around us that's so powerful that it's eclipsing that. It's blinding. I mean, I just saw this fascinating clip today. So Tim Tebow has taken up a role to kind of advocate for some policy that can help protect children who are being victimized in child pornography, child sexual exploitation. It's really, really remarkable. And in this clip where he was interviewed, he was on the Sean Ryan show, he was saying, look, there's all these. You hear the conspiracy theories. I don't even think he used the words. He was being very careful because he knows who the audience that he's trying to appeal to is. He says, we hear these stories and we think of child trafficking and child sexual exploitation as this thing that happens when people from the outside come in and get to our kids and do these things. But the vast majority of traffickers of children, traffickers of child exploitation material are the parents of those children, the fathers, predominantly the fathers of those children, you know, and. And he just sort of lays out the statistics. It was, it was quite interesting because you saw some right wing media people kind of responding to it, going, you know, oh, Tim Tebow must be woke because he's saying white men are the problem. It's like, no, it's just, it's just a data fact. Like, the point is not that they're white. The point is that the point is that the problem is inside your house. Else. Right? And I think part of what's so fascinating about these movements, I'd love to hear either of you guys reflect on this. Like, there is this powerful formula at work where these people are God's anointed and the mission is so important and the evil is so profound, and yet they have been breeding grounds for all manner of corruption and abuse.
- [44:38]
Rebecca Sebastian
I think Robert was actually on this story. If you go back to the beginning of this Texas legislative session, there's a NAR affiliated church in Texas called Mercy Culture that staged an exorcism on the first day of the legislative session of the Capitol building. And they brought in their whole church. They did a worship session inside a room in the Capitol building. They had people praying on the outside. They were casting the demons out of there. And Mercy Culture is, I think you guys even talked about, right? Robert Morris was one of the founders of Mercy Culture, right? And they're, they're doing all this casting demons out of the, the LGBTQ people who are going to, to attack our children, right? And like, that's happening within their community, right? And so I, I think there is this externalization. It's a very powerful narrative that says, the evil is out there, the evil is in the culture, and we can diagnose, we can describe that evil, and then we can go after and conquer it. And we are on the side of the angels, so we're righteous. And Trump is on the side of the angels because God has anointed him. So he's righteous, he's clean. Right. And it's very, very much this kind of Hobbesian, like, we are opposed to those people, so they are evil. And whatever our side does is justified in that. I mean, in some ways, this is just basic human psychology, but they've added this veneer of spirituality to it that is itself very powerful because it's claiming revelation as the basis for it coming.
- [46:16]
Mike Kosper
You know, from, I guess, almost eight. It'll be eight years in next month of covering the SBC abuse crisis. That was such a crucial part of how that crisis was able to spiral out of control. This idea that, you know, anybody who is not of us is against us, and therefore anybody who comes to us and says, hey, there are abusers targeting your churches. Not even that.
- [46:36]
Matthew Taylor
You.
- [46:36]
Mike Kosper
Not even that, oh, your pastors are abusive. There are abusers targeting your churches because they understand that they can play off the empathy, forgiveness and. And compassion that are characteristic of your church. They are targeting your churches. And those survivors were, by and large, treated as outside threats. I mean, they were called as. As satanic, as reprehensible as the. As the men that abused them in some cases. And I think that that kind of, you know, it's been. It's been. Not to get too into the internal SBC politics, but. But it's been really fascinating that that culture was really propped up by two men, as you guys have talked about, Paul Pressler and Paige Patterson, who later were the, I guess, impetus for our reporting on the abuse problem writ large. Presser because of actual abuse allegations, and Patterson because of his mishandling of them. And in response to the abuse crisis that was born out of the culture and failures of the leaders of that culture, there is now a new wave within the SBC trying to make the exact same case that all this is a Trojan horse for women pastors. And Beth Moore is going to pop out of a birthday cake at the annual meeting and get everyone to vote for Bernie. I don't really know what the end game is. I'm not privy to those meetings, but, like, like, I don't. I don't. I. It's just been very frustrating to see the same. It is just an endless feedback loop of that kind of, I think, is indicative of what happens when you really buy into the crux of this us versus them theology.
- [48:15]
Matthew Taylor
Well, to that end, before we wrap things up, Robert, one of the reasons we wanted to have you on tonight as well was to remember one of those survivors who was one of the very first to come forward that we lost this week. Could you share that story for our listeners?
- [48:29]
Mike Kosper
Yeah, Dwayne Rollins was. You know, I, I wouldn't be sitting here without Dwayne Rollins. Maybe through a weird twist of events, I don't know, maybe. But I, like when I was at the Houston Chronicle, our entire series on SBC abuses would not have ever started had Dwayne not come forward. And facing almost insurmountable legal odds against Paul Pressler, the, you know, prominent Southern Baptist leader. And, you know, Dwayne was someone that I got to be very close with over the last, you know, few years, you know, six or seven years. Just a really kind, wonderful person, type of person who you could see in his eyes and mannerisms these faint little glimmers of who he was, you know, who he still was. This kind of faint glimmers to, to, to like just this. This childlike glimmer that kind of just reminded you, you that, oh, this person has never really left. Being 14, 50 years later, you can see, you know, you can still kind of see that spark in their eye. And I think, you know, I'm, I'm devastated that he is gone from cardiac arrest. I don't know the full details yet, but he had dealt with drug and alcohol addictions for most of his life as a direct result of the abuse that he endured. And so, you know, it's, it's devastating. But I'm incredibly honored that I got to call him a friend and that he allowed me to, to us to tell his story.
- [49:57]
Matthew Taylor
So, yeah, it is, it is devastating. And we're so grateful for your reporting, but we are. You know, the thing that struck me when I first saw some of your posts about him over the weekend was just realizing that the extent to which it does take a person who's willing to come forward, I mean, in the same way that someone like Rachel Denhollander comes forward and names Larry Nassar and puts her face and her name on that story. It takes something like that to kind of break the ice on one of these, one of these predators that, and, you know, what we know now is that Nasser was a predator for years for many, many, many people, and that Pressler was a, was a predator for many, many years and the courage it takes to do that. I mean, the price those survivors pay when they come forward is. I mean, it's unspeakable what they go through at times.
- [50:45]
Mike Kosper
Yeah. I mean, and Dwayne was, you know, I don't. I don't think he faced the same. I don't think he faced the same dragging through the mud that, say, a woman survivor. Women survivors often face. But, you know, one of the last conversations I had with him was the day that Paul Pressler died, which is about a year ago. And, you know, I just. I've been thinking about that conversation a lot this week. And just like, only then did he feel any kind of freedom. A guy had to live to 99 and then finally die for him to feel like he could breathe again in this world. And it's. It is a testament to the devastating effects of. Of child abuse, especially when it's kind of coupled with divine justifications, as his was. But also. Yeah, just, just, also just, you know, devastating that he got barely less than a year of. Of living with that freedom before he died. So.
- [51:44]
Matthew Taylor
Yeah. Well, thank you, Robert. Thank you, Matthew, Rebecca. Enjoy your upcoming vacation. Rebecca's headed to Italy here tomorrow.
- [51:55]
Mike Kosper
You're not coming to Dallas for the SBC meeting?
- [51:57]
Robert Downen
I'm trying to catch the Pope.
- [51:58]
Mike Kosper
We have wine. They just can't. You just can't let them see you drink it.
- [52:03]
Matthew Taylor
Right?
- [52:04]
Robert Downen
Noted.
- [52:04]
Matthew Taylor
Yeah. It's like that. The only time, you know, the only time two Baptists aren't friendly with each other, so they pass each other in the liquor store.
- [52:13]
Mike Kosper
That's actually a new one. I've never done that one.
- [52:15]
Robert Downen
Just let our listeners know that we'll be back mid June with some bonus episodes and rolling those out over the summer. And Matthew and Robert, thank you again for joining us. And everybody, if you're not already following our Facebook page, that's the best way to stay up to date on what we're doing. And, yeah, we'll be talking to everybody again in a couple weeks. Until then, have a good start to summer.
- [52:38]
Matthew Taylor
Devil in the Deep Blue Sea is a production of Christianity Today Day. It's hosted and written by Mike Kosper, produced by Mike Kosper and Rebecca Sebastian, with production assistance from Dawn Adams. Sound design and mix engineering by TJ Hester. Sound design, animation and video by Steve Scheidler. Graphic design Nim Ben Rubin, Eric Petrick and Mike Kosper are executive producers of CT Meet to Podcasts. Matt Stevens is our senior producer. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us A rating and review wherever you're listening. It'll help more people find the show. Thanks for listening, Sam.