In this episode, Richie Davidson and Cortland Dahl unpack a very misunderstood molecule in popular culture: dopamine. Often blamed for craving, scrolling, distraction, and the endless loop of wanting more, dopamine is not something we can “detox” from or simply turn off. It is essential to motivation, aspiration, learning, and even the desire to practice meditation. Together, Richie and Cort explore what dopamine actually does in the brain, why wanting and liking are not the same thing, how novelty keeps us hooked, and how savoring may help us step out of compulsive loops and reorient toward what is genuinely nourishing. Enjoy!

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Podcast Chapter List

(00:00:00) – Dopamine is not something we can turn off

(00:03:46) – What is a neurotransmitter?

(00:06:04) – Dopamine as neurotransmitter and neuromodulator

(00:08:20) – Why the brain is too complex for simple chemical stories

(00:12:02) – The awe and mystery of the brain

(00:15:51) – Dopamine, motivation, and the myth of dopamine detox

(00:17:04) – Wanting vs. liking

(00:19:24) – Doom scrolling and the loop of seeking

(00:22:32) – Does dopamine explain why we keep scrolling?

(00:24:21) – Experiential fusion and mindless behavior

(00:25:42) – Why one molecule is never the whole story

(00:26:57) – Novelty and reward prediction error

(00:29:00) – The Easter egg example: seeking, finding, and disappointment

(00:30:23) – Dopamine in different brain circuits

(00:35:37) – What actually helps with compulsive loops?

(00:37:47) – Savoring as a way out of wanting

(00:39:24) – Meditation, breath, and the practice of savoring

(00:43:20) – Letting go of seeking

(00:43:56) – Gratitude, bodhicitta, and the sweetness of connection

(00:45:28) – Renunciation as reorientation

(00:48:00) – Closing

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Written transcript for those who prefer to read

Lightly edited for clarity and readability.

Dopamine Is Not Something We Can Turn Off (00:00:00)

Richard Davidson:Dopamine is essential for human life.

Cortland Dahl:There’s no turning dopamine off.

Richard Davidson:No turning dopamine off. And anyone who thinks they’re going on a dopamine detox and really banishing their brain of dopamine, I hate to burst the bubble, but that would not be compatible with life.

Dopamine is essential in motivation, desire, seeking, and anything that is goal-directed. It has been described by the neuroscientist Kent Berridge as central to “wanting,” which he contrasts with something that it is often confused with: “liking.”

Many times, we like the things we want. But not all the time. Sometimes we get caught up in a wanting cycle that is not necessarily leading to liking.

But dopamine also plays an incredibly positive and important role. When I spring out of bed in the morning, go down to have my cup of tea, and have the strong aspiration to meditate, that is inevitably relying on the dopamine system too.

Welcome to Dharma Lab (00:01:45)

Cortland Dahl:Welcome everyone to another episode of Dharma Lab. I’m Cortland Dahl, and I’m here with my dear friend Richie, Dr. Richard Davidson, who, as I’m sure most of you know, is one of the most eminent neuroscientists on the planet.

We’re incredibly fortunate to have him in discussion yet again, and for a topic that he is especially well suited to talk about, which is dopamine.

I never thought dopamine would be a hook for a conversation like this, but it has taken on almost mythic status in popular culture. It has almost become the bad boy of the brain, like the amygdala, which is one brain region that always gets a bad rap and is associated with all sorts of negative things.

These days, of course, we hear a lot about dopamine. You might have heard of things like a dopamine detox, which makes it sound like dopamine is some toxic thing in the brain that we want to get rid of or shut off or have less of in some way.

So we thought we could get into the science of neurotransmitters generally, and then specifically dopamine. What does the science really say? What function does dopamine actually play, not only in our brains but in our ability to thrive and flourish?

Richie, maybe we can start by zooming way out. I’m guessing people have heard the word dopamine. Some may have geeked out a little and learned more or even tried something like a dopamine detox. Other people may have heard about serotonin or other neurotransmitters, but my guess is that people’s understanding is still a little fuzzy.

Could we start with the idea of a neurotransmitter, and then zoom in and look at dopamine specifically?

What Is a Neurotransmitter? (00:03:46)

Richard Davidson:Yes. Thank you so much. This is a juicy topic and very appropriate for Dharma Lab.

There is a constellation of molecules in the brain that play many different roles. One of those roles is what you mentioned: a neurotransmitter.

A neurotransmitter has a very specific role in mediating the interaction between two neurons. When one neuron fires, it sends an electric potential down the axon of that neuron. You can think of the axon as the wire extending from the cell body. The cell body is where the basic machinery is, and the axon extends from the neuron.

Those axons can be short, and they can also be very, very long. If I asked you right now to move the big toe in your right foot, all of you should be able to do that. That is actually a neuron that extends all the way from your brain to your big toe.

Cortland Dahl:That’s a single neuron? That’s cool. I didn’t know that.

Richard Davidson:Yes, it is a single neuron. Neurons have many different lengths.

At the end of the axon, there is machinery that releases a little packet of chemical. That packet binds to what is called a receptor on another neuron, and that initiates an electric change in the second neuron.

That is how communication works between two or more neurons. That is called a neurotransmitter.

Dopamine as Neurotransmitter and Neuromodulator (00:06:04)

There are also neurotransmitters and other molecules that act as neuromodulators. A neuromodulator is different from a neurotransmitter. Dopamine, which is the topic of our conversation today, can serve as both a neurotransmitter and a neuromodulator.

What is the difference?

A neuromodulator alters the threshold for the firing of a neuron. It is not directly involved in cell-to-cell communication in the same way. It is more like the molecular soup in which the neuron resides, and that changes the threshold for the firing of the subsequent neuron.

There are many molecules that serve as both neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, and dopamine is one of them.

I think most neuroscientists would agree that we have not yet discovered the full range of neuromodulators and neurotransmitters in the human brain. It is a vast number. In the popular press, we’ve heard about dopamine, serotonin, maybe norepinephrine, maybe GABA. But there are hundreds of these molecules playing complicated roles.

This is why, in general, it is extremely hazardous to pin a particular mental state on a single molecule. That is almost assuredly excessively simplistic and wrong.

To the best of our knowledge, there is no well-defined psychological state that can be pinned to one specific molecule. It is much more complex than that.

Why the Brain Is Too Complex for Simple Chemical Stories (00:08:20)

Cortland Dahl:Just as a footnote, I think it’s mind-boggling when you hear how complex our brains are. Could you say a little about the estimates of how many neurons there are, and then beyond that, the connections between neurons?

Now we’re talking about neurons communicating with each other. It’s an order of magnitude we can’t even comprehend.

Richard Davidson:The estimated number of neurons in the human brain is about 85 or 88 billion.

Cortland Dahl:That’s a “b,” everyone.

Richard Davidson:Yes, billion. And the estimated number of connections among those neurons is in the trillions.

Cortland Dahl:That’s in your head, everyone. Trillions of interconnections, and all these little communications, neuromodulators and neurotransmitters. The number of times that is happening right now, as you’re listening, is beyond what we can actually think about.

Richard Davidson:That’s very true. I often reflect on this as a humility induction, because it is so complicated and we really understand so little of it at this point in time.

If we pause to appreciate the complexity, and if we are honest with ourselves, it really is a humility induction.

It also exposes how gross our measures are. We’ve done a lot of research with EEG, including the first paper we published with long-term meditation practitioners. EEG involves pu...