Chris Perfetti – on bringing Jacob to life on ‘Abbott’ and why theater is home

Summary

Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson

Episode: Chris Perfetti – On Bringing Jacob to Life on ‘Abbott’ and Why Theater Is Home
Date: January 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jesse Tyler Ferguson shares a lively meal at Roberta’s in Studio City with actor Chris Perfetti, best known for his role as Jacob Hill on Abbott Elementary and his recent work in the film Twinless. Over pizza and pasta, they discuss Chris’s journey from upstate New York to network TV, his deep roots in theater, the nuances of representation and queer storytelling on Abbott Elementary, and the creative pleasure of toggling between theater and television.

The conversation flows naturally—from their early careers and love of Shakespeare to the mechanics of filming mockumentary sitcoms and the joy of returning to live performance. Chris reflects on why theater still feels like home and what keeps him creatively fulfilled between TV shoots.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Food, Friendship & Setting the Table (04:46–06:03)

• Jesse and Chris chat about gluten-free diets and the menu at Roberta’s, ultimately ordering the Bee Sting pizza, oxtail rigatoni, lettuces…and some olives.
• Lighthearted banter sets an intimate, comfortable tone for the rest of the conversation.

2. Chris’s Upstate New York Roots & The Theater Bug (06:07–08:54)

• Chris describes growing up near Canada, outside Rochester, NY. He initially fell into performing via music, playing in band before discovering theater:

  “I was pretty shit at everything else, so I was like, I think I'm gonna go to school for this.” (08:03)

• He credits Rochester’s regional theater and NY state governor’s school as pivotal.
• Both hosts reminisce about the Tony Awards as a gateway to theater as kids.

3. Training, Shakespeare, and the Lure of New York (08:54–11:27)

• Chris went to SUNY Purchase, a rigorous four-year conservatory, and Jesse attended AMDA in NYC.
• Both recall their formative theater experiences, including summer Shakespeare and the magic of performing outdoors under the stars.
• Chris:

  “There really is nothing like being under the moon in Central Park, doing a play.” (11:19)

4. Staying True to Theater: Balancing TV Success with Stage Craft (12:28–16:51)

• Jesse admires Chris for consistently returning to theater during his “off time” from Abbott Elementary:

  “I'm just so impressed that, you know, you are still able to do what you... I know because I know you are rooted so deeply in the theater.” (18:44)

• Chris shares how theater remains his “home”:

  “Theater feels like home. It feels the most like acting to me… It’s still the greatest high I’ve ever experienced.” (20:01)

• Both reflect on the unique satisfaction and growth theater offers versus the creative stasis that TV often brings:

  “You get on a sitcom, there’s not a ton of room for growth with these characters... it's comfort TV for [the audience].” (18:44)

5. Living Between LA and New York: Finding Balance (20:01–22:45)

• Chris talks candidly about dividing his life between LA and Brooklyn, emphasizing the creative nourishment he gets from both cities.
• Jesse relates, having only put down LA roots after starting a family but still cherishes time in NYC:

  “Being able to go back and forth makes me appreciate each city so much.” (22:45)

6. The Breakout of Abbott Elementary: The Unfolding of Jacob (23:41–29:19)

• Jesse recalls meeting Chris at baggage claim right after Chris had shot the Abbott pilot and before its success. They discuss the feeling of never knowing which project will “break out.”
• On what attracted Chris to Jacob and his evolution:

  “I definitely know guys like Jacob. There are a lot of Jacobs in my life… This weird kind of, like, alchemy happens where you start to become the authority on this person.” (26:09–28:03)

• The two joke about network TV’s evolving approach to representation:

  “Certainly in the context of network tv, your character ran so that Jacob could be, you know, whatever that is.” (28:37)

7. Jacob’s Queerness: Authenticity Without the Trope (28:30–30:56)

• Chris and Quinta Brunson intentionally avoided a hackneyed “coming out” episode:

  “I so appreciated that she didn’t give the character some big coming out episode.” (28:37)

• On how authenticity and specificity make characters resonate:

  “When they’re doing something that seems truthful to them, that’s when people want to get involved.” (30:08)

8. Mockumentary Mechanics: Breaking and Bending the “Rules” (30:56–35:07)

• Jesse gives an insider’s look into the “mockumentary” format of Modern Family:

  “They kept trying for a few episodes to justify the cameras, but eventually, ‘never mind – camera crew’s already in, everything works!’” (32:17)

• Chris relates similar challenges on Abbott Elementary, balancing realism with the practical needs of TV storytelling.

9. Chris’s Latest Film: Twinless (35:22–38:57)

• Both hosts heap praise on Twinless, which stars and was written/directed by James Sweeney.
• Jesse is “kind of obsessed” with Sweeney, likening the film’s twisty rewatch value to The Sixth Sense:

  “It is one of those films that sort of begs for a second viewing. It's a great film. It was really exciting to see you in it.” (38:17)

• Chris:

  “If you’ve got good writing, I’m there. And then I was really blown away by him (Sweeney) as a filmmaker. He's truly, like, one of the most incredible visionaries I've worked with—and he's 12!” (37:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Theater as Home:
  “Theater feels like home… It doesn’t feel like I’m going to work or like I’m doing something difficult. It’s what connects me to that thing that I’m chasing. It’s still the greatest high I’ve ever experienced.”
  —Chris Perfetti (20:01)

• On Jacob’s Representation:
  “I so appreciated that she didn’t, like, give the character some big coming out episode… people are queer and some of them are teachers. I’m not going to spoon feed this story.”
  —Chris Perfetti (28:37–30:19)

• On the Alchemy of Character:
  “You start to become the authority on this person… it’s weird to simultaneously feel like I’m the expert on Jacob and yet 10 other people are as well, who are writing for him every week.”
  —Chris Perfetti (26:09–28:03)

• On The “Mockumentary” Format:
  “They kept trying for a few episodes to justify the cameras, but eventually, ‘never mind – camera crew’s already in, everything works!’”
  —Jesse Tyler Ferguson (32:17)

• On Twinless and Its Visionary Young Creator:
  “If you got good writing, I’m there. And then I was really blown away by him as a filmmaker. I think he’s truly, like, one of the most incredible visionaries I’ve worked with—and he’s 12!”
  —Chris Perfetti (37:11)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Food & Banter: 04:46–06:03
• Roots & Theater Beginnings: 06:07–08:54
• Shakespeare & Conservatory: 08:54–11:27
• NYC vs LA, Modern Family vs Abbott: 12:28–22:45
• Breaking Through with Abbott Elementary: 23:41–29:19
• Jacob’s Queerness & Representation: 28:30–30:56
• Mockumentary Filmmaking Mechanics: 30:56–35:07
• Discussing ‘Twinless’: 35:22–38:57

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Final Impressions

Chris Perfetti charms with his candor, humor, and obvious reverence for theater, while Jesse Tyler Ferguson proves an affable, insightful host. The episode offers both a backstage view of working on hit sitcoms and a heartfelt celebration of theater’s enduring power. For fans of Abbott Elementary, Modern Family, or just the craft of acting, this meal—and conversation—satisfies.

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Listen for:

• The joy and grind of living between coasts and art forms
• The subtle ways TV is (slowly) evolving queer representation
• Genuine camaraderie and observations about creative ambition
• A personal recommendation for Twinless, a buzzy new indie film

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(Ad spots, plug segments, and outro credits excluded per instruction.)

Transcript

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

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[Chris Perfetti]

It's amazing that we're. Because I feel like certainly in the context of network tv, like your character ran so that Jacob could be, you know, whatever that is.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

We held the door open for you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, this is Dinner's on Me and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. So today I am at the Sportsman's Lodge in Studio City and we are going to Roberta's. Now, if any of you East Coasters think Roberta's sounds familiar, it's because, yes, this famous pizzeria started in Brooklyn and it's finally made its way to the West Coast. We have a few locations here and it's known for a really great slice, a really great vibe. And my favorite pizza of theirs is the bee sting pizza. And it's a little bit spicy, it's a little bit sweet, just like my friend Chris. So I'm so glad he was able to join me while he's in Los Angeles for a few days for heading back east. And I'm excited to see him. All right, let's get to the conversation. This is the funny thing.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I, I keep trying to do gluten free for like two weeks because my doctor was like, just try it to see if, like, your energy level's better. And I cannot get it started.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah, that's good. I mean, you're living in the best place for to be able to do that. And I find I find so many gluten free things I enjoy more than the original. Like a gluten free pastry. Forget about it. A gluten free pancake.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Forget about it.

[Chris Perfetti]

Forget about it. Love that shit.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

What do you think?

[Chris Perfetti]

I don't know. I know I want that pasta if you've got it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

We're definitely doing the oxtail brigatoni.

[Chris Perfetti]

And I want those green lettuces.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

We want the green lettuces. I have to confirm everything, just so you know. Everything has to go through me and I'm an idiot. Little stinker or bee sting. What do you think?

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

Honestly? I would say why not go with the classic with the bee sting?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Okay, let's do it.

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

Yeah, you got it. Okay, let's take the lettuces, the baked dogs tail, rigatoni, and the bee sting, right?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yes.

[Chris Perfetti]

Great.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yes.

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

All right. Thank you so much. I can take these out of your way right now.

[Chris Perfetti]

Thank you.

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

I'll be seeing you very soon.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Okay.

[Chris Perfetti]

Do you have any olives?

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

Actually, yes, we do. We have a really good plate of olives.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Olives.

[Chris Perfetti]

Let's do that as well.

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

Absolutely. You got it. Well, thank you so much. I'll see you soon.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Well, you grew up in New York, right?

[Chris Perfetti]

I grew up super upstate, like, near Canada. And like, my people are from outside Rochester. And then I went to drama school like a half hour north of the city. And then I moved into New York after school.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Where'd you go to college?

[Chris Perfetti]

I went to Purchase where I met Broadway's Micah Stock. That's how we became buds.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

You went to school in the city, didn't you?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I went to the American musical and dramatic Academy in.

[Podcast Host (Lipstick on the Rim segment)]

In.

[Chris Perfetti]

In New York, right?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. On. On the Upper west side.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's a.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

It's a conservatory, like, where you get a certificate of. Please, shed.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You went to like a. I went.

[Chris Perfetti]

To a conservatory, but it was. It was. It was for full years.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Okay. Would you come into the city a lot to, like, see theater?

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think I would have done well going to school in the city. I think I would have been pretty distracted.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Before you went to college and what kind of relationship did you have with performing on stage? Did you do that at home? And was there a community theater that you were involved in?

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah, I did. I did. I kind of fell into it, like, by way of music. I was into music and I thought I was gonna be in band and stuff like that.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

You don't sing, though, do you?

[Chris Perfetti]

Not really. I mean, I sing constantly, but I've never been paid to sing, and I don't think I will. But, yeah, I did plays in high school. I did. I did stuff locally. There was an amazing regional theater in Rochester that, you know, showed me what it could be like. I mean, I fell in love with it because of that.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

And I was pretty shit at everything else, and so I was like, I think I'm gonna go to school for this. And there was. There was enough, you know, as much as I shit on Rochester, like, where I grew up, there was so much there. There was enough to kind of, like, show you where to go. And so, you know, I went to. There's, like, a governor school for New York State that really kind of showed me what training to be an actor would be like. And it made me kind of fall in love with it, I guess, for the right reasons. Whereas before, I was like, I'm going to make you laugh and I'm going to be the center of attention, and it. Did you?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yes.

[Chris Perfetti]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host (Lipstick on the Rim segment)]

Thank you.

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

Just right here in the center.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah, sure. Thank you.

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

Enjoy, you guys.

[Chris Perfetti]

Beautiful. I mean, I grew up six hours from New York City, so I wasn't that far, But I had. The first time I visited New York, I was 16 or 17. And the Tony Awards are really kind of like. They were like. They were like the rainbow road for the. They were like, you know, connecting the country. It's amazing how many people, like, had an experience watching it as a kid.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

And for sure, I mean, it was my pipeline to so much. Yeah. I mean, because, you know, the titles of, like, you know, Angels in America, they weren't making their way to Albuquerque, New Mexico. It was really just through those performances and seeing this, like, tiny little clips, like those little itty bitty morsels of, like, whatever they had to offer for, like, their 90 seconds of screen time that they had on the Tony Awards that, like, I would latch onto and then do, like, crazy research to try and figure out, you know, how I could find out more about these plays and all these, like, shows that, you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Know, we're a little too abstract because.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Like, in Albuquerque, it was like, you know, Oklahoma. It was Annie. Like, these are the shows that, like, I was exposed to. Mouse Trap, you know.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah. Like, yeah. You're like, I want. I want Shakespeare.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah. Boy, did you find it.

[Chris Perfetti]

Boy, did I get. It was this summer the seventh one.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

Holy moly, Jesse.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I know.

[Chris Perfetti]

It's so amazing. Oh, here's our pasta.

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

This is the baked oxtail rigatoni.

[Chris Perfetti]

Thank you.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Thank you.

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

And for this one, be very careful. Try not to touch the edges of that cast iron.

[Chris Perfetti]

I want to touch it.

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

You know, I also have that pizza following right now.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

Would you like me to clear some of these out of the way? Just put them on.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

We can just put it. Yeah, yeah, you can move things over there.

[Chris Perfetti]

Thank you.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Look, if you can see them still.

[Restaurant Staff/Server]

Yeah, of course.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

All right, I'll be right back.

[Chris Perfetti]

Thank you.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

You said you did Shakespeare a lot in the final year.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah, our whole fourth year is kind of.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Ah, you're so lucky.

[Chris Perfetti]

Our whole third year, rather. And so I felt like I had a good handle on all of the plays, and I had a really perfect, gorgeous.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Okay, incredible. Anyway, that was a very special summer. I enjoyed doing that and I enjoyed meeting you that summer.

[Chris Perfetti]

There really is nothing like being under the moon in Central Park.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

Doing a play.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah, that's really special.

[Chris Perfetti]

It's pretty cool.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Chris and I get into our early days doing theater together, and he tells me why he still makes time for theater when he's not filming Abbott Elementary. I love that. Okay, be right back.

[Podcast Host (Lipstick on the Rim segment)]

This is not a drill. For the first time in Lipstick on the Rim history, a real housewife has entered the studio. And not just any housewife. Rachel Zo, the fashion legend herself. Did we expect styling stories, glam chaos stories from the past decade in a full cat eye at all times? Yes. Did we expect her to open up about divorce, rediscovering herself, joining Housewives with zero prep, and what it feels like to finally feel like her again? No. It is vulnerable, iconic, hilarious, and one of our favorite conversations ever. The Real Housewives have officially entered the chat. Listen now.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And we're back with more dinners on me.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

And I wish I'd seen it, but.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You got to do that play, Little Island.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah. New York is. What is it called?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Open Throat.

[Chris Perfetti]

Open Throat, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Which Joanna said she read that book. I haven't read it.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah, it's a phenomenal book. I think you would really like it.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

About a gay mountain lion in Griffith Park.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah. It's a queer mountain lion who. Kind of like stumbles into. It's kind of chronicles their interactions with humans and the experience of. It's kind of like a love story and a takedown of LA all at the same time.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I gotta read it.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah, it's pretty cool. He's a Phenomenal writer. His name's Henry Hoak. You would. I think you would dig this book. Yeah. Little island. The park has. The park has some competition now. We've got some outdoor venues, and there's.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Like, a little tiny mini dart in theater.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah. It's an amazing space. It's literally in the Hudson River.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

And they're programming some really rad stuff. You know, there's opera, there's dance, there's theater, there's music, there's conversations all kind of happening there. I hope it really becomes a thing. I mean, as much as I say, like, there will be nothing like Shakespeare in the park, there's room for other experiences. Bring it on.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

New York's such a cool place for that. I remember during. I don't know if it was. I don't know if it was. I think it was during the pandemic, but I actually think it might have been before. It might have just been, like, a regular summer in New York. I just, like, associated with the pandemic. But there was this woman who lived off of her apartment, and you could tell she'd probably been in this apartment for, like, 30 years or something. But it was one of those apartments that overlooked the High Line. One of those old apartments with, like, the old fire escapes. And she would do a cabaret on her fire escape.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Every, like, Friday night over a summer.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And it became this thing. Timeout.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

New York wrote up a big thing about it, and then the city of New York was like, you actually can't do public performances on your fire escape. So they made her shut it down, but they gave her notice that they were gonna, like, shut it down. So she had a final performance, and I remember reading, and I wish I could have gone to it.

[Chris Perfetti]

You attended the closing night performance?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I wish I had.

[Chris Perfetti]

I really wish I had.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

But I saw photos from the final performance. It was like there was thousands of people in the street under this woman's fire escape, and she was just doing this, like, cabaret. And so I'm glad she was able.

[Chris Perfetti]

To find a way to take back her apartment from the High Line. Right.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Exactly.

[Chris Perfetti]

Can you imagine?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I know, but it's, like, stuff like that that I feel, like, so cool about New York. So, you know, this theater space in Little island, which, you know, I watch. I live in Chelsea. We have our department.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

In that area. So I saw this island kind of, you know, forming over the past 10 years. But it is such a cool space. It's one of my son's favorite place to hang out and, like, I love that there's performance there. I really wish I had seen that play. I saw photos of it. It looked incredible with New Jersey in the background and the river. It looks so cool.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah, it was a good time.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

You have done a very good job. Just put on top of the pasta.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah. Oh, no, don't do that, actually. There you go.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Thank you.

[Chris Perfetti]

You were saying. I've done a good job.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You've done a good job of.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Doing what I did when I was doing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Modern Family and going back to New.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

York and doing theater almost every hiatus.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I've been very lucky, and I'm so impressed.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I remember my cast would be like, why? Why? First of all, they're like, why?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Why do you like to work so.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Hard on your hiatus? It's like, they're so hard. It's like, so much works. I'd be, like, learning the play, you know, in, like, the final weeks of doing Modern Family. And, like, I was like, God, you're already having to work on your next job. Like, it just seems like so much work. And I was like, I love it so much.

[Chris Perfetti]

It doesn't feel like work.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

It doesn't feel like work. I mean, does your cast seem to understand, like. I mean, I don't think you have any theater people in your cast. Well, Sheryl Lee Ralph, you know, what am I saying?

[Chris Perfetti]

Theater icon.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Theater icon.

[Podcast Host (Lipstick on the Rim segment)]

Theater.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah. They're similarly kind of like. I mean, two to their credit. We've kind of, like, bitten off a little more each year, and we're, you know, doing some of these ambitious shoots, and everybody's life, obviously, as the show has gotten bigger, has gotten bigger, and so they're all busier. And Tyler is directing. You know, he's directed a couple of our episodes, and so I think they're probably more ready for a break at the end of it than I am. I just. Yeah. I've been so lucky that there's been a play or something to work on during that time. I feel like so many people have said to me, like, especially people who know you or worked with you. Like, they remind me that I'm on sort of a shrinking island and how great it is when you can get this job, which can work so fast and furiously, but, you know, it takes us only half the year to shoot 22 episodes. And so I've got the other half of the year to.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I mean, and I kept hearing what else I want when I was doing Modern Family, but it is now being on the other side of it and having the show behind me. I can say it pretty confidently to you, but it's so rare that, you know, you have a network television show that. That films 22 episodes and does as well as Abbott elementary is doing. And people really love it. I mean, it's just.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's such a gift.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

And I'm just so impressed that, you know, you are still able to do what you. I know, because I know you are rooted so deeply in the theater, and I love that you are taking these opportunities to come back and, you know, do interesting things that are stretching you, because that's the other thing. And if you're feeling. I don't know if you feel this way, but I certainly did with, you know, doing a network television show, you. You get on a sitcom, there's not a ton of room for growth with these characters. You know, the audience, they don't want to see Jacob not being.

[Chris Perfetti]

Do a 180.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah, exactly. Because they need. It's comfort TV for them. You know, you don't have a ton of room to stretch, especially when you've been doing a role, what, it's now five or six seasons that you've been doing Jacob.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah, we're in our fifth right now.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah. Yep. So, you know, the idea of doing theater and getting to stretch is. It's extremely exciting. But I just, I love that you have been. I mean, I know you constantly go back to New York and in fact, I remember asking you, like, where do you live? You're like, I live in New York. I just work here in la. You really have kept your feet firmly planted in the east coast, which is impressive.

[Chris Perfetti]

LA feels more and more like home every year. But I think just because of the sheer number of years that I've lived in Brooklyn, like, it's still. It feels like home. It still feels like home. And theater feels like home. It feels the most like acting to me. It doesn't feel like I'm. Yeah, like you said, like we're going to work or like I'm doing something difficult. It's what connects me to that thing that I'm chasing. It's still the greatest high I've ever experienced, and. I'm so glad that there's been something to do in those months off. I think they really kind of keep each other in check. Like it was only when I was working on a play, while we were, as you said, finishing up our season and getting to ping pong between the two is just so fun to me. It made me realize how much Abbott is kind of informed by being able to Trust your ensemble. And, like, everything is always about timing to me. Like, even, you know, incredibly dark moments or, you know, whatever you have to access psychologically. It feels like rhythm to me is still kind of like a driving factor in discovering truth or telling a story. Like, especially when you're in a play and, you know, a sitcom is all about rhythm. It's like you have to know how to, like, show up for that thing.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

And so they really feed each other in the same way that New York and la, I feel like, feed each other. New York has everything that this place doesn't, and this place has everything that New York doesn't. And it's so amazing to. I never imagined that I would get the, to spend my life like. It's so crazy, actually, that we go from one side of the country to the other side of the country.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah, I, I, I resisted Los Angeles for a really long time. And even up until, like, 10 years ago, I was like, I'm, I'm in New York or I'm just here for a little while. This is after, like, having substantial work here. Like, I, I was rooted pretty heavily in here. It wasn't really until I, I, I met Justin, got married, and started a family that I felt like, okay, this is where I live now and I get to live in both places. But, you know, I think both, like you just said, I mean, being able to go back and forth makes me appreciate each city so much.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Now, let's take a quick break, but don't go anywhere. When we return, I get into the exact moment that I realized Abbott elementary was going to be a smash hit. The logistics of filming mockumentary style television. And Chris tells me about his new movie, Twinless. Okay, be right back.

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[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And we're back with more dinners on me.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I remember I saw you. I don't know, it was about five years ago now, I guess at baggage claim.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Was it a JFK or lax. I don't remember where, if you were coming or going.

[Chris Perfetti]

We were. We were both landing in New York.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Landing in New York. I hadn't seen you in a while.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I was like, what are you doing?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

You're like, I just shot a pilot. I just finished the pilot called Abbott elementary. And it was before any of this happened. And then I remember, like, you know, late summer, you start seeing all the billboards go up for, like, the next season of shows, and there was your face. I was like, oh, my God, it's Chris's show. I can't wait to watch it. And you just never know with these things. And I absolutely fell in love with it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I think.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I think I reached out to you to tell you how much I loved it.

[Chris Perfetti]

It was.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

It's so special. And I. I. I got to meet Quinta shortly after that at, like, sar. We were with the same agency for a while, and we were at some Christmas party, and it was, you know, only five or six episodes to come out. At that point, she was there, and I introduced myself to her. She's awful.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Charmless.

[Chris Perfetti]

There's so much room for improvement. You know, there's so much potential.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Honestly, just charm.

[Chris Perfetti]

I've said that to her.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I've said that to her face.

[Chris Perfetti]

Charmless is wild.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I have notes. I have notes, and these are. These are the notes.

[Chris Perfetti]

My God.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, it's. It. I was. I'm so happy for you, but I was just so proud that.

[Chris Perfetti]

Thanks, Jesse.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

You know, you were on a show that was so good because you deserve to be. I mean, you're so fucking talented, and it's just such a perfect part for you. I mean, I was curious because, you know, with Modern Family, a lot of this stuff was a lot of, like, what became the show was not on the page when I first audition, and it sort of became that thing as we created the show together. But, like, from what I understand, there was, like, a.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Was there a lot for Jacob. Like, I mean, I feel like quintet.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Had a pretty, like, what? I remember reading a pretty outlined version of who this person was. He's also, like, one of the only white people in the show. So I think there was, like. There was.

[Chris Perfetti]

There was.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You know, how did that.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Why. How does this white guy fit into, like, a prominently black ensemble?

[Chris Perfetti]

I'm laughing because I was imagining the character descriptions of all of the other characters as being extremely thorough. And then Jacob Hill, white. Oh, really? No, that's not what it was. But, no, I think Quinta had a really. I Mean, like any great writer, comedian, collaborator, she comes in with a strong sense of what makes her laugh and then is open to what the universe wants to show her as well. And I didn't feel like I had any authority on this character. I just, you know, I read it, and I thought she had a really specific idea of who they all were, and that's why I thought the show was funny. And so I just kind of, like, vamped off of that. And I definitely know guys like Jacob. There are a lot of jacobs in my life. And then, yeah, after we shot the pilot, this weird, you know, this weird kind of, like, alchemy happens where, like, you start to become the authority on this person. And it's like she brought them into the world, but you're gonna be. They're a parent for however many years you are, and you're gonna, you know, be in their skin for 22 episodes a year. And so it's weird to simultaneously feel like I'm the expert on Jacob, and yet 10 other people are as well, who are, like, writing for him every week. And I think what attracted me. Me to the show was that she took some big swings, and it felt like she was writing for just herself, and she was writing people that, when put up against each other, would cause some kind of sparks.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

And then she was like, who do you. Who do you. What? Like, what do you have to say about. What do you want to bring to this?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

What did you contribute?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What did you have to offer?

[Chris Perfetti]

I mean, not that much. I feel like what I have to offer is like, I just have to find a way to make real for myself what is interesting to you. And then I'm gonna go off and do my work and obsess myself with the things that I think Jacob is interested in and afraid of.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

And was he always a queer character?

[Chris Perfetti]

No. I mean, we. We shot the pilot, and when we got picked up, Quinta and I talked about that, and I so appreciated that she didn't, like, give the character some big coming out episode. And, I mean, it's amazing that we're talking about this, because I feel like, you know, certainly in the context of network tv, You know, your character ran so that Jacob could be, you know, whatever that is.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

We held the door open for you.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

So you could fly. Well, I remember being so struck by that, because you're right. In the pilot, there was no mention of, like, who Jacob was privately. And then, you know, in very simple, almost blink and you miss it sort of ways. There were these hints like who all these characters were in their prior lives, not just Jacob.

[Chris Perfetti]

I mean it when I say, like when I read the pilot, I felt like she was writing jokes for just her, which on a network sitcom is, you know, somewhat revolutionary, I think. But the more you kind of get some specific. And any writer artist will tell you that, like, when they're having fun, when they're doing something that seems truthful to them, that's when people want to get involved.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

You know, it's when you try to please everybody or you do something general that people are like, that's actually not how the world works.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Right.

[Chris Perfetti]

And so I think she just thought, like, people are queer and some of them are teachers. And like, I'm not going to spoon feed this story to perhaps half of the audience who. Who might like, do a double take about that. We're just going to. It's also. It's also, I guess, sort of baked into the mockumentary format that like, we're trying to convince you that this is real life. We're trying to dupe you into thinking that this is happening somewhere really in the world. And so just gotta let it be and not over explain it.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I do love that you all justified the documentary of.

[Chris Perfetti]

Did Modern Family not.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

We tried to.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

So I guess in the original version.

[Chris Perfetti]

That's amazing.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

It was the reason this documentary was happening was because a former exchange student who. The Dumfries, my character and Julie Bowen's character we had when we were younger. It's this kid from Sweden living with us, an exchange student. And then he comes back to like do a documentary about his American family. And the original title, the show is My American Family. And so it was all from his perspective. And he was actually written as a character in the show. And then they were. They were just like a few characters too many. And so they. He was the first to go. And so the documentary or mockumentary conceit stayed. But there was no explanation as to why this family was having a documentary about them. But I do remember in the first season we would do things, I remember in the pilot specifically, like, what would happen if this was a documentary. Okay, so we're bringing this baby home from the hospital. The camera crew is obviously with us. And we're all getting out of the car together. They're getting out of the car. They're behind us. We're leading into the house because we have the keys.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's our house.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

We open the door. We have to hold the door open. The camera could.

[Chris Perfetti]

The camera wouldn't be in there before you.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

So. And they. All these things. And we did that for, like, I don't know, eight episodes. And then we're like, okay, never mind. Camera crew's already been having worked just too much. It became too much.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And so we just sort of, like.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

As it gets slicker and slicker and slicker. And to the one. There's a scene in one of our later episodes where Sofia Vergara's character announces that she's pregnant. And then it fast forwards a few years, and we do, like, this, like, kind of beautiful, like, cinematic circle thing where, like, it goes around. Like, then all of a sudden, like, we're in a different time, and, like, Sophia's pregnant. And, like, I was like, you know.

[Chris Perfetti]

Like, break the fucking rules.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

There's no rules anymore. Like, now what are we doing?

[Chris Perfetti]

We're doing dream sequences, people. Exactly. Yeah. We literally were just doing this the other day. There's this hilarious moment that we just shot where Quinta needs to barge into an office and start screaming about something. But then she realizes that they're on the phone. And so she tries to, like, you know, backtrack.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

And all of us are right behind her. And the camera is obviously with us, coming behind Quinta. Because that's how it would be in the documentary. You know, the camera would not already.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Be in the room catching her arrival. Right.

[Chris Perfetti]

Coming in. And so we did this over and over, trying to. Trying to get the choreography right so that we could see it, you know, so that there was a camera there to capture it, but that it was, you know, also feasible. Right.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

You know, so then we're still trying to work with. In the construct. The construct of, like, a documentary.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

But you guys had so many locations, and so, like, ours. Ours is. I think. I think we are helped by the framework that, like, there are cameras in the school and there are people working. You know, there's a crew working in the school. You guys had.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

You know.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah, we're out in the world. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I remember the first season of Modern Family when we were trying to still do this construct. And, like, there was a scene where we were in. We just shot an episode in Hawaii, and we were in an elevator, and they wanted to shoot it with just the elevator doors open and, like, straight on. I was like, no, that's not interesting. Like, that would not be, like, how it would be shot. So I. I suggested they build in what looked like security cameras in the elevator, in the corners. And then I said in like. And I was like. And what if, like, me and Cam are, like, taking videos of one another on our phone and that's, like, the footage you get. So it's like, you know, you work with what you would have in elevator.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

And so that's how we shot it, and that's what made it in. And that's my idea. And so, like, I was really proud that, like, I was trying for a little while to, like, keep up with this idea that there was a mockumentary happening or documentary, rather. But yeah.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah, it's been one of the more kind of like, unexpected, fascinating parts of the show is I feel like I'm kind of going to film grad school in a way.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Right.

[Chris Perfetti]

Some of these olives?

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah, please. Okay. We're going to talk about twin less.

[Chris Perfetti]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Which, by the way, so twin lists. I. I just watched it. I finished it this morning.

[Chris Perfetti]

Oh, cool.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm kind.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Okay. I'm kind of obsessed with this guy who wrote it and stars in it. He's very good.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Tell me his name again.

[Chris Perfetti]

James Sweeney.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

The movie is great. I don't know why I was like.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I had started off as like, okay.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I think I know what this is gonna be. And it ended up completely surprising me. It's really, really well done. Talk about someone with a vision. I mean, this guy's James, who wrote it and directed it and stars in it, is so great. I actually just sent him a message on Instagram. I was like, I'm kind of a new fan of yours, saying hello. I told him I was so sweet of you, having lunch with you, but.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, how did you.

[Chris Perfetti]

Did you.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Is this someone you knew before?

[Chris Perfetti]

No, I met him when he started to make this movie, and I read the movie, and I was like, I don't think, you know, tonally something like this really exists. I was like, I needed to talk to him. I needed to know if he wanted us to laugh at him or with him or when. It would be sort of the emotional climax of the movie. I thought it was so awesome.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

It is very funny and also dark and tragic and emotional.

[Chris Perfetti]

Super dark. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

You definitely feel for these characters as well. I mean, like, I thought. I felt really bad for. For him, and he's a character, and anyone who watches the film, well, you know, it's. Once you kind of get far enough into the film, you know, your feelings change about many of these characters, and it was a tricky performance to pull off.

[Chris Perfetti]

Totally.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah. I was really, really taken by it. I mean, it's a really cool project to be a part of.

[Chris Perfetti]

Oh, yeah, I agree. I'm so grateful that. I mean, we were chatting about it last a couple years ago now, and I was like, look, if you can make this work so that I can come up on the weekend while we're shooting Abbott, I'm yours. And. And God bless him, he did. And I really went because I was so taken by the script. That's what. It's always. What it always is for me. It's like, it's. If you got good writing, I'm there. And then I was really blown away by him as a filmmaker. I think he's truly, like, one of the most incredible visionaries I've worked with. And he's 12.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

He's so.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

He looks very young.

[Chris Perfetti]

He's very young. He's very talented. He's very sweet, I will say.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

After finishing the film, I went back and watched the first 20 minutes again, knowing what you know. Knowing what I know. And I was, like, really impressed by the clues he laid in and just the attention to detail.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

It's one of those films that, like, when you finish, you're like, wait a minute. It's kind of like. I mean, I don't want to, like, build it up too much, but, like, I felt the same way after seeing the Sixth Sense. I was like, oh, I want to watch it again, knowing now what I know. And it is one of those films that sort of begs for a second viewing. It's totally. It's a great film. It was really excited to see you in it.

[Chris Perfetti]

Thanks, man. Yeah, I think the whole. The whole visual language of it, the story itself, I just thought were so unique.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Yeah. Really cool.

[Chris Perfetti]

I'm glad you saw it. Yeah. I hope everybody can see it, and I hope that he is.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I feel like he's someone that we're gonna see a lot more of.

[Chris Perfetti]

I hope so.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I mean, maybe he'll be his new muse. Just, like. What was her name? To Josh Safis.

[Chris Perfetti]

Julia Fox.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Julia, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I'm Josh Saffay's museum.

[Chris Perfetti]

Yeah. I'm on a lot of people's muse right now. I don't know that I can. That I have room for it. You have room for it. Definitely. Floating.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

No, but it's really impressive, and I'm very happy for you, and I'm glad you're the.

[Chris Perfetti]

I'm glad you did. For you. You're amazing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I've been trying to get you on here for a while.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

I love watching you eat. I love watching you eat. Gluten. You skinny little Worth it.

[Chris Perfetti]

Highly recommend.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

This episode of Dinners On Me was recorded at Roberta's in Studio City, California. Next week on Dinners On Me. You know her from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Brooklyn, nine nine, New Girl, and so many more things. It's Mary Elizabeth Ellis. We'll get into her and her husband Charlie Day's humble beginnings raising a teenager in Hollywood and working with acclaimed director Paul Thomas Anderson.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

And if you don't want to wait.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners On Me. Plus, as a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one.

[Interviewer/Host (possibly Jesse Tyler Ferguson or a co-host)]

Week early, you'll also be able to.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Listen completely ad free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinners On Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode Hansdale. She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tameka Balance Kolasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.

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[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh what a shot.

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325 on back to back weekends. The new era is here.

[Chris Perfetti]

Time.

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[Chris Perfetti]

Bam. Let's go.

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