Elizabeth McGovern — on ‘Downton Abbey’ fame, and what she learned from iconic Hollywood bombshell Ava Gardner

Summary

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Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson

Episode: Elizabeth McGovern — on ‘Downton Abbey’ fame, and what she learned from iconic Hollywood bombshell Ava Gardner
Release Date: September 16, 2025
Location: Estiatorio Milos, Hudson Yards, NYC

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Overview

In this intimate and engaging episode, Jesse Tyler Ferguson sits down with acclaimed actor, writer, and musician Elizabeth McGovern for a pre-show meal in New York City. Over fresh Greek cuisine, they discuss Elizabeth’s remarkable career—from her breakout in "Ordinary People" to international stardom in "Downton Abbey," as well as her latest theater project "Ava: The Secret Conversations." The conversation weaves through themes of fame, reinvention, the realities of Hollywood, imposter syndrome, creative fulfillment, and the enduring impact of embracing new artistic challenges at any stage of life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Careers and First Big Breaks

• Elizabeth’s upbringing and entry into acting ([18:54]–[23:20])
  • Grew up in Chicago, moved to Los Angeles at age 10; parents were teachers, not a “Hollywood” family
  • Her family didn’t go to movies, which fostered her independent spirit:

    “It gave me the freedom to not have any kind of desperation about being successful.” ([19:04])

  • Transfer to artsy Oakwood School was transformative, meeting lifelong friend Todd Haynes (now a film director) ([21:05])
• Accidentally scouted ([21:59])
  • Cast in "Ordinary People" after an agent saw her in a school play
  • Booked the role at age 18, attending mass open calls
  • Later reflected on early break:

    “…it took me like the rest of my life to learn that it wasn’t that easy.” ([23:13])

• Juilliard & Robert Redford’s help ([26:17]–[28:30])
  • Auditioned for Juilliard and landed "Ordinary People" at the same time
  • Redford prioritized her education by scheduling filming around her studies:

    “He actually flew me up whenever I had a weekend off and we shot those scenes. I mean, that’s such a caring thing to do.” ([28:24])

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2. Fame, Failure, and Finding Purpose

• Navigating early success & disappointment ([23:22]–[24:18])
  • Explains the pain of later rejection after early meteoric success:

    “…there’s an added sort of frisson of failure about that and that I have faced. [...] To me, that felt almost worse than someone going, ‘oh, I’m going to try to be an actor [...] okay, it didn’t work out’…” ([23:52])

• On “Downton Abbey” and ensemble achievements ([25:23]–[25:39])
  • Unexpected phenomenon, especially on PBS in the States
  • Cast camaraderie sometimes gets overshadowed by career anxieties:

    “It’s that kind of peripheral anxiety that has nothing to do with that initial feeling of warmth and camaraderie...It’s a trap.” ([25:21])

• Moving to the UK & family ([32:49]–[33:45])
  • Relocated to England in 1991 to start a family
  • Felt as though she was professionally starting over
  • Embraced periods of hiatus for her children:

    “I think on my tombstone it will read on hiatus.” ([33:27], also [03:03])

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3. “Ava: The Secret Conversations” & the Art of Reinvention

• Genesis of the play ([07:00]–[10:17])
  • Discovered Ava Gardner’s memoir on a whim
  • Adapted for stage; explores Gardner’s late-life reckoning and relationships
  • Play parallels Gardner’s marriages with her evolving relationship with biographer Peter Evans
• Casting choices & dramatic devices ([10:25]–[11:09])
  • Biographer actor doubles as all of Ava’s husbands, connecting past and present
  • Striking design and direction noted
• Reflections on female celebrity and cultural memory ([11:47]–[14:55])
  • Discussion pivots to Pamela Anderson as a modern parallel

    “She has now seized it and is doing what she wants with it. And for me, that is a very happy thing to see.” – McGovern ([14:33])

  • The pressure female celebrities face to play to “male fantasy” in order to be seen

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4. Oscar Nomination & Meaning of Awards

• Processing the Ragtime nomination ([39:00]–[40:15])
  • Felt undeserving of an Oscar nod at 20:

    “It was my second job. I didn’t know what I was doing… it dawned on me that these things are not about deserving them.” ([39:59])

• Awards as industry currency
  • “It’s about keeping the… kind of the business thing working.” ([40:16])
  • Humorous speculation on the origins of the Oscars as a tool for studio politics ([40:24])
• Anecdote from Jesse about the SAG Awards ([41:08]–[42:33])
  • “Get used to it, kid!” — Edie Falco to a disappointed young castmate ([42:32])

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5. Sustaining Creativity: Songwriting and Band Life

• Late-blooming musicianship ([43:21]–[47:17])
  • Inspiration to take up guitar lessons as an adult during a lull in acting work
  • Started a band with her guitar teacher and his brother; still performing together after 20 years
  • Finding value in pursuing new creative outlets, even if not at “virtuoso” level:

    “It’s like, work with what you’ve got and do your thing.” ([47:06])

• Encourages learning at any age

  “There’s being technically brilliant, right? Yeah, it is too late. It’s too late… There’s another thing which is you can find a way of expressing in your way on this thing.” ([45:53])

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6. Legacy, Contentment, and Life Perspective

• Jesse’s reflection on Elizabeth’s full, varied career ([47:17]–[48:47])
  • Urges her—and listeners—to appreciate a life that’s richer and more complex than fleeting moments of fame

    “I hope that you can look at, like, everything you’ve done...Like, you’ve done so much. I mean, talk about taking a life and, like, making something of it.” ([48:21])

• Elizabeth’s acceptance and gratitude

  “But to… take out and see that bigger picture, it’s a lovely thing. Thank you.” ([48:53])

• Warm closing sentiments
  • Affectionate mutual respect:

    “I’ve watched you in the dark so much. It’s really a treat.” – McGovern ([49:23])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On reinvention:
  “It’s that kind of thing you can keep doing, and then you just kind of get it right the last time.” – McGovern, on revisiting roles ([06:05])
• On playing the game in Hollywood:
  “She had to sort of play that game... Which she did. And... she has now seized it and is doing what she wants with it.” – McGovern, on Pamela Anderson ([14:27])
• On award show realities:
  “Get used to it, kid.” – Edie Falco to young Aubrey, after losing a SAG Award ([42:32])
• On artistic satisfaction:
  “There’s being technically brilliant, right?... There’s another thing... you can find a way of expressing in your way on this thing.” – McGovern ([45:53])
• Self-aware humor:
  “I think on my tombstone it will read on hiatus.” – McGovern ([03:03], [33:27])

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |:----------:|-------------------------------------------------------| | 03:03 | Elizabeth enters; playful banter; “on hiatus” tombstone joke | | 07:00–10:17| Genesis and structure of "Ava: The Secret Conversations" | | 12:10–15:00| McGovern and Ferguson discuss parallels between Ava Gardner and modern female celebrities like Pamela Anderson | | 18:54–23:20| Growing up in LA, entry into acting, Oakwood School, Todd Haynes | | 26:17–28:30| Juilliard admission; Robert Redford’s mentorship | | 31:05–32:49| The life change of moving to England and starting over | | 38:34–40:22| "Ragtime," Oscar nom, the strangeness of awards | | 43:21–47:17| McGovern’s 20-year band, creative expansion, late-in-life learning | | 47:17–48:53| Jesse’s reflection on a full life and measuring success | | 49:23–49:41| Mutual gratitude and encouragement to each other before their performances |

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Tone & Style

• Warm, candid, and self-deprecating: Both Jesse and Elizabeth lean into humor, honesty, and a mutual sense of being grounded despite high-profile careers.
• Inviting and reflective: The setting in a bustling NYC restaurant adds intimacy and authenticity, making the listener feel like a dinner guest at the table.

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For First-Time Listeners

This episode is a must-listen for fans of stage and screen, anyone interested in the realities behind public success, creative reinvention, and the ways artists build meaning in their lives beyond fleeting accolades. Elizabeth McGovern is as thoughtful as she is accomplished—a Hollywood “bombshell” who opted for artistry, personal happiness, and constant creative evolution.

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Transcript

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So I'm currently traveling abroad in London right at the moment, which is why so many of my episodes have people with British accents right now. It's amazing here. I love it. And until I need directions or restaurant recs or anything. And I've got no wi fi and sky high roaming fees, which is just. It's not cute. That's why I started using Saily. Saily is an easy to use ESIM app created by the folks behind NordVPN. It gives you instant mobile data in over 190 countries and you only have to install it once. That means I didn't have to line up at the airport for a SIM card, get scammed outside the train station, or keep hunting for public wi fi signals like it's a rare Pokemon. Seriously, I sat outside of Wagamama the other day trying to get onto their wi fi for probably 20 minutes. I just opened the app, picked a regional plan and boom. I had reliable Internet from Italy to Greece without switching a thing. Plus Saily offers private features and 24. 7 support, which makes me feel a whole lot more secure out here. Get 15% off your Saily plan with the code dinnersonme just download the Saily app or head to saily.com dinnersonme S A I L Y.com dinnersonme stay connected and don't miss your dinner reservation. Lately, our August calendar has been absolutely packed. Between summer travels, Sunday dinners with friends, chasing our kids around the park. It's. It's busy in the best possible way. And when you're juggling all that and you realize you need hire someone fast, that's a whole different kind of heat. That's where Indeed comes in. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need. Instead of waiting around hoping someone sees your post, indeed's Sponsored Jobs puts your listing right at the top for the right candidates. And it works. According to Indeed data, Sponsored Jobs posted directly on indeed get 45% more applications than non sponsored Jobs. One of the things I love about Indeed is how fast the process is. No long term contracts, no subscriptions, you only pay for results. How fast is Indeed in the minute I've been talking to you. 23 hires are made on Indeed, according to Indeed Data worldwide. There's no need to wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility at indeed.comdinnersonme just go to indeed.comdinnersonme right now and and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast, Indeed.com dinnersonme Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Hi, it's Jessie. Today on the show. You know her as Cora Crawley in the Downton Abbey universe. She's a wonderful singer, she's a wonderful writer. It's Elizabeth McGovern.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I think on my tombstone it will read on hiatus.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, this is Dinner's on me. And I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. I, once again, since I'm in New York City, rode my bike up this time to the area known as Hudson Yards. I'm so excited to be here to sit down and have a lunch with Elizabeth McGovern. We're both on stage this evening, so we're having a light pre show meal together. I have been admiring Elizabeth McGovern's career for so long. Obviously I saw her in her very first film, Ordinary People, which is a classic. But I recently became a fan of hers in the series Downton Abbey, which I think the rest of the world became a fan of hers in as well. She is on stage right now in a play that she wrote and stars in called Ava the Secret Conversations. It will be closed here in New York by the time this podcast comes out, but there will be runs of it in Chicago, Chicago and Toronto. It's absolutely wonderful. Hi. Hello, gorgeous. Hello. I'm sitting here at Estorio Milos. It's in Hudson Yards, as I said. I'm staring at a display of glistening fish. That looks so fresh. Yeah, one actually just winked at me. Sunlight is pouring through the floor to ceiling windows. It's bouncing off the marble staircase that we've just wandered up. It feels like a little slice of grease, except instead of the Aegean Sea, we've got the Hudson river and the giant copper beehive known as the Vessel as our background. It feels like a perfect place for Elizabeth McGovern. It's elegant, it's worldly. It's just a little unexpected sitting above a incredible mall. This is not a hide in the corner kind of restaurant. This is a let's sit in the middle of the action while we talk about escaping Hollywood and landing happily in Chiswick kind of spot. The energy is warm and buzzy and the food is impossib fresh, which is exactly what you want when you're eating fish. I'm so excited to be waiting for the one and only Elizabeth McGovern. Oh, I think I just saw her walk in. All right, let's get to the conversation. How are you?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I'm fine, thank you. Very excited yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm excited to have you. I. I saw the show on Sunday.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

You did?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I did.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Oh, isn't that nice of you? Because you are busy.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm busy, but I was excited to see it. Yeah. I have ma. I can see mayonnaise, which is great.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Right, Good.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Oh, you have no matinees.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, because I'm doing Shakespeare in the park at no point. We don't do daytime concerts.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I wish I could see you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I know.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

It's killing me.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I know.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And I love that play.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's my seventh time doing Shakespeare in the Park.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Oh, is it?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So it's sort of my home. It's where I got my Equity crown.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Well, I'm impressed. Seven times.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Seven times, yeah. Do you do Shakespeare?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I've done Twelfth Night twice.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Who'd you play?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Violin? Twice.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Twice.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And I was looking at it again, thinking, oh, now I. Now I know how to do it. It's that kind of thing you can keep doing, and then you just kind of get it right the last time.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm now circling back and, like, there's roles in Shakespeare plays that I've done that I want to do different parts in. Like, what was it like for you to tackle the same part with some space in between?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I just. Well, I feel that way doing the play that I'm doing right now because we've done it before the same production.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And after that, it's just such a nice thing to start on day one. And it's already kind of in your bones in terms of knowing it. Yeah. So a lot of that stress is gone, and then you can just go deeper.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. So, I mean, what drew you to Ava Gardner's story in the first place? I know. Was it. It's based on a book? Is it?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

It's a book. It's a book that was collecting dust on my shelf in my house in London for years, and I just happened to pick it up one day. I mean, literally, that is the story. And I started leafing through it, and I just thought, this is so interesting that a woman is trying to come to terms with her life at the end of her life, and she's doing it with a guy who's hired to try to write her story for her. So that that kick starts an interesting relationship right from the start, because the two of them are journeying toward intimacy in the same way that a romantic relationship takes a journey toward intimacy. And there's stops and starts, but basically, you're going to a place where you really start to know each other. And then I thought, since she's thinking back and trying to come to terms with all the romantic relationships of her life, I wanted to try to sort of do a parallel story.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes. How are you today? Welcome to Milo. Hi.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Hello.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

How are you? Thanks for having me. May I offer you some water? Do you have any preference? Do you want sparkling or still is my preference. I would take still as well. Do you want Milos? Yes. This is my first time. Welcome. So I highly recommend sharing some of our highlights. If you'd like to have a little try. Try grill octopus with a little fava spread, a little special thinly sliced zucchini eggplant, a little tzatziki spread on the side, some fried saganaki cheese. I would love to get a Greek salad, if that's okay.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah, me too. I like that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Maybe we should have that.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Well, it says serves too perfect.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's. We're gonna eat two. Will eat that. And then I would love some fish. Do you like dude fish?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I do fish.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Like, maybe a fish we could share. Would you like to try the Greek snapper? I'm happy to try that.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I think there's something in your eyes that's telling us that's the way to go.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. But we're gonna trust you. It's a quite unique fish. Yeah. I'm happy to try it.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Okay.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And we'll. We'll both be on equal footing tonight on stage.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Exactly. Exactly. Well, I'll text you to see how you're faring. Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

How's that fish sitting?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah. Is there a side with the fish, maybe? Sure. A side with the fish. Sure. Broccoli, cauliflower. Let's do that. Perfect. You're talking about a parallel.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Oh, yeah. What was.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I. I know, I know. It always happens when we go.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Oh, yeah. That we're.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

We're.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Because Ava Gardner was famous for marriages, I thought, let's go through the arc of these marriages and have a parallel arc of her and her biographer, so that there's these two stories that are kind of hopefully playing out at the same time. And so we learn about her past, but we also get swept up, hopefully, in the ongoing story of her and the biographer. And I want to see, like, what.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Happens between them and what's so wonderful. And first, I should also say that you wrote this as well.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Well, I adapted it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Adapted it, sure. That's still a huge. Yeah. I mean, it's a huge achievement to adapt something for the stage.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Well, thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But what. I love the devices you've used is that the biographer who plays Peter. Peter Evans is the biographer's name. And the actor is Aaron Costaganis. Thank you. He's so wonderful. He also inhabits all of the husbands.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Exactly.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And that was such a wonderful surprise. You know, Mickey Rooney and of course Frank Sinatra and then the middle husband that everyone always forgets about.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Artie.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, Artie Shaw. Yeah, Artie Shaw, who she was ironically married to, I think the Longest, right?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Oh, I don't know. No, I think she's married to Frank Longest.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay. But he's so wonderful. And so. And it's such a beautifully designed show as well that the flashbacks are really striking on stage.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Oh, I'm glad to see it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, I kind of wish you could watch it from the audience.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

No, I always wish I could because I have no idea what's going on in her heyday.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And like, I mean, she's a Mickey Rooney and then the color palette is just really stunning. I mean.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Oh, I'm so pleased.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Your director, Moses, right?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah. Moritz on Strip noggle. Yeah. I mean, fantastic director.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. I saw Hand to God, which is one of my favorite plays. He's such a great director, Moritz. But I. Yeah, I think that parallel relationship is really. I mean, it's the heart of the play.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, you talked a little bit about it, but it's how different and how we've got grown as a culture and how we have treated women specifically. And also the way we view a Hollywood bombshell. I think a lot about. I was thinking a lot when I was watching her play about Pamela Anderson.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Uh huh.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And how she's also had this evolution of like she has this. She's rooted in this very specific place in our memory, you know, with her role in baywatch in the 80s and now she's emerging and people are feeling she's having this resurgence and like she's having a comeback and you know, she's becoming. She's an actress that we were respecting in a different way.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Completely doing it on her terms.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right. But I find it also, I find it interesting because I mean, she has always been there. She's always been like in the background of the past 30 years. Like she's always been in our cultural imagination.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Like it's interesting that almost like culture reclaims her or taking ownership of this moment for her.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I just, it strikes me as very strange that, you know, we are like as a culture saying like we have deemed that she is relevant now in these ways. But it's. I'VE been watching, you know, as she's in, you know, doing press for Naked Gun. And she's such a big star right now at this moment and in this relationship, apparently with Liam Neeson. And it's like it feels very crackly like those all old Hollywood stories do. And it's, it's just interesting to me that it feels like the culture is sort of like, yeah, yeah, we helped bring that along.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess the question to ask is, would she be enjoying this if she hadn't gone full hundred percent into the blonde, the boobs, the male fantasy personified just on what has now become apparent, which is she is incredibly talented person, but if she hadn't gone that route, she would probably be Pamela Anderson at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival being a very, very wonderful actress.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

So she had to sort of play that game.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Which she did. And I mean, to me, it's a beautiful story because she has now seized it and is doing what she wants with it. And for me, that is a very happy thing to see. I suppose if she didn't have the talent that she has, she never could have done that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I mean, that was there.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's what I'm saying. It's like it's always been there.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we return, Elizabeth shares how Robert Redford helped her in her early career. We share our love of Mary Tyler Moore and getting her first series regular role on the PBS mega hit Downton abbey at age 49. Okay, be right back. After a morning Pilates class, I am sweaty, I am tired, and I need something that's going to refuel me fast. That's when I head straight to Tropical Smoothie Cafe. Their peanut paradise smoothie is my go to. It's got 22 grams of protein, it's freshly blended, and it tastes like a vacation in a cup. And if I'm feeling a little extra, one of their tropic bowls always hits a spot. The PB Protein Crunch bowl is loaded with 32 grams of peanut buttery protein. Or I'll go for a mixed berry Greek yogurt bowl topped with fresh strawberries and blueberries. Everything's made to order, it's easy to grab, and you can even order ahead in the app. So you're in and out, just like that Tropical Smoothie Cafe. You're on tropic time now. You know how much I love food, and lately I've been obsessed with this one thing from Boar's Head. Sweet bees, honey Barbecue glazed Chicken Breast. The name alone makes me hungry. Oh, it's so good. It's honey drizzled and barbecue sizzled. And honestly, it tastes exactly like that sounds. It's slow roasted, layered with this proprietary glaze that has wildflower honey and hickory smoke, plus a dry rub with smoked paprika and garlic. It's got that sweet and smoky balance that reminds me of a great barbecue joint. But you can get it sliced fresh at your local deli counter. I've been using it in sandwiches at home, sometimes with Boar's Head American cheese, and sometimes just on its own. Because it is that good. My kids will literally eat it straight out of the fridge. Which, if you're a parent, you know that's a win. So if you're looking to mix up your lunch game or your dinner game, honestly, try Sweet Bees today and experience the flavor of authentic barbecue at your local Boar's Head deli counter. Boar's Head Sweet Bees Honey, Barbecue glazed Chicken breast. Honey drizzled and barbecue sizzled Boar's Head. Committed to crafts since 1905. So apparently I'm what they call a procrastisaver. You know, someone who keeps putting off saving money even though it's staring me right in the face. You've never heard of procrastaver? What are you talking about? Yes, guilty as charged. But then I heard about Mint Mobile's best deal of the year and thought, okay, Jesse, this might be the universe telling you to stop being stubborn. Here's the thing. With Mint Mobile, you can cut your wireless bill to just $15 a month when you switch. All their plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network. And you don't have to buy a new phone. You can keep your current one, your number, all your contacts. I love Mint mobile. I mean, three months of unlimited premium wireless for just $15 a month, that's a deal worth not procrasting on, you know. But it does end September 22nd. So quit stalling and start saving when you make the Switch. Shop plans mobile.com Jesse that's Mint mobile.com Jesse. Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to 15amonth, limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 GB on unlimited plan taxes and fees. Extra cement Mobile for details. And we're back with more dinners on me. I might tie this as much as I can into, like, what? You know, the story you're telling right now with Ava Gardner, but When you were young, I know you grew up in Chicago and moved to Los Angeles fairly young, like age 10.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What was Hollywood like for you as a preteen teenager?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

So I think that's, in a way, why I always had quite an independent spirit, which I do appreciate in retrospect, because my. Even though I was in la, my family literally never even went to the movies. I mean, they were kind of.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What is your parents?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

They were both teachers. So I didn't feel like I grew up in Hollywood culture at all. But I think because of that, it gave me the freedom to not have any kind of desperation about being successful. I mean.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That looks so good.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's incredible. Thank you. What was your introduction into the show? I mean, show business there. Would you. Were you. Did you start off doing theater? Like, how did you.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I. The. The luckiest thing that ever happened to. As I was sort of just a. I feel like I'm sort of almost underwater in the public junior high school. And I don't know what instinct it was of my parents, but they decided to send me to this more sort of artsy, fartsy, in those days school called the Oakwood School, which is, I think now quite an academic school. But. But when I went there, it was very hippy, dippy, kind of. And I feel like I really came to life there. I feel like. I feel like that's almost like it was like being born. And then I immediately became best friends with this absolutely wonderful person with long blonde hair who completely looked like a girl, but he was a boy. And he was called Todd Haynes, who's become.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, of course, Todd Haynes, direct. Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

We went to grade school together.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

We were 14.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Amazing.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

We both started our first day at Oakwood School together, and he was the other. He was the new guy and I was the new girl. And. And we lived very close to each other and in the San Fernando Valley. And he was just a being that was just an artist. You know, he just.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You could tell even at that core.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Of his body, and it was like a sort of earthquake for me. I just. I just kind of absolutely fell in love with him. And then we would do plays.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And where did it go from, like, just so this interest in creating with your new friend Todd to, you know, having a Hollywood audition and having opportunity.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

So that was just another really strange thing. There was a school production of Skin of Our Teeth. Remember that? Born Too Wilder. And one of the guys who was doing the Lights, his father or mother, was friendly with a Hollywood agent whose name was Joan Scott, who came to the play, and she left a message with the school office, which they then handed to me, saying, call me up if you ever want to pursue acting as a career. And I was graduating that year, looking at colleges, and they were doing massive auditions for this movie that's called Ordinary People.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

They saw maybe, like, I don't know, 5 million high school kids for that. And I just went in on one of the massive auditions and then kept coming back. And that was.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

The last audition.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah. When you got that, I was 18.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay. Wow.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

So it took me like, the rest of my life to learn that it wasn't that easy.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And, you know, I did.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And I think it was like, in some ways, there was a sort of added pain or poignancy to then the later rejection, because then there's this element of I had an opportunity that I either screwed up or went away or, like, there's an added sort of frisson of failure about that and that I have faced.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Because you hadn't faced it yet.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

No, I hadn't faced it. And to me, that felt almost worse than someone going, oh, I'm gonna try to be an actor. And like, okay, it didn't work out, but.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Cause you've tasted what it can be.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah. I had this chance, and then either I blew it or maybe for whatever reason, it's gone away.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

So that, that was. But I definitely deeply experienced that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, I bet.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I think anyone who's been in the career will relate to. There's this idea that you're gonna, this moment gonna come, and it's your chance.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And somehow you have to. To capitalize on it. And that's why I think a lot of people become quite miserable when they're in hits. I mean, I, I, I think it was a possible trap with us doing Downton Abbey, because that was a show that went huge, and we were all just loving each other, getting along, working so well as an ensemble cast. But then once it becomes huge, you think some people are exploding and other people aren't. And I'm somehow not making the most of this. It's that kind of peripheral anxiety that has nothing to do with that initial feeling of warmth and camaraderie and passion that you feel for the actual work itself.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

It's a trap.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So I know we're skipping ahead a little bit, but Downton Abbey specifically, I mean, was a show that I think surprised everyone. You know, it was a show that here in the States, we were watching on pbs, which is not A network where, you know, hits are made really, the public broadcast.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Not historically.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, not historically, but that. That was, you know, everyone all of a sudden was, like, figuring out how to renew their PBS subscription because they were hooked to Downton Abbey. And, like, it was massive cultural moment. And, you know, I was doing Modern Family at that time, and we were seeing you all at the Emmys, and I was. I remember being fascinated, like, oh, my gosh, that's what these people look like in real life. And, like, you know. You know, I was used to seeing him in all this period garbage. I mean, I was swept into the magic of that show as well. Like, I adore Downton Abbey after Ordinary People. When did you start Juilliard in that process?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

So I had auditioned for Juilliard, and I was applying for regular college as well, and I did get into Juilliard at around the same time that I got the part in Ordinary People. So it was then another just Greek salad.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You like it? Delicious.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Absolutely. I mean, it's amazing. It just looks like a tomato, but there's something about it that is.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's so. So sweet and delicious. Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I don't know how to do that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You can leave. I don't think we're. I think the bread. Do you want bread?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

No.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You could take this bread if you want to make some room for olive oil. We're going to keep the salad. We're going to keep our microphones, and we're going to keep the salad, and we're going to. To keep the water.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

We're happy.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Thank you. You could. You could switch on my plate. Sure. So I was say if. If there was, like, ever, like a. A moment, like, well, we're not sure if we're going to accept Elizabeth into Juilliard. Well, she did just land Ordinary People. Let's let her in. Let's let her.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I don't know. I don't actually know. I don't think they think that. In fact, I don't think I mentioned it to anybody.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

No, the thing that was. Because they. In those days, I think it's probably changed now. In those days, like, they don't have anything to do with movies and tv. They're the theater.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I'm sure that's not true anymore, but. No, it was. It was Robert Redford because he was directing it. And I remember having an initial meeting with him and saying, I'm just really. I don't know what to do because I. I have this. I've got. I've got. I'VE applied for school and I've gotten in and I don't know whether I should go to school or do the movie because of course it's not a huge part in a movie, it's only five days. But he said, listen, you go to school and we'll just schedule around you. And he actually flew me up whenever I had a weekend off and we shot those scenes. I mean, that's such a caring thing to do.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

He seems like 18 year old kid.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, I love that he flew up and it was sort of. Did he seem like a father figure?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I don't, I don't know about that. But I mean, I've always felt so grateful to him for his kindness and gentleness. And every time I put seen him since then, which hasn't been a lot, that's reaffirmed that feeling I have about him. Very caring, sensitive person.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And Mary Tyler Moore at that moment, I mean, she's an icon. Was an icon. Was such a cultural phenomenon.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah, she was absolutely.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I got to work with her at the end of her life, actually.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Oh, really?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I did an episode of Hot in Cleveland, which is a sitcom that Betty White was on.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And so she must have brought Mary in.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

The whole Mary Tyler Moore cast was a guest star on the show on just one episode. One episode. It was Georgia Engel. It was.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

That must have been emotional.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It was incredible. And Mary was not.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I actually, I'm almost welling up thinking about it because I've watched every single one of those shows.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Same.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah, of course.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And so I was offered a guest spot on this episode that just happened to have the entire Mary Tyler Moore guest cast. Mary Tyler Moore cast as a guest cast for this episode. I was like, there is no way I'm turning this part down. Like, how do I make this work? I am so grateful for that week. It was incredible. I didn't get to talk to Mary Tyler Moore too much, but I, I just even being in her presence on the day that we're shooting was very emotional. Watching them all connect and also like fall into their old.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Patterns of like, you know, Cloris Leachman was annoying everyone and Georgia Engel was like, we gotta move on. And Betty Wire was like, you know, like TikTok, like time is money. And Mary Tyler Moore was just like, you know, happy to be there. It was very.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I wonder how long it hit. Had been since they'd seen each other.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It had been a while from what I gathered.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And did she and Betty keep up their friendship or had they were they kind of reconnecting or do you know, they were.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's interesting. I was. I was very tuned into watching, like, when. When one would enter for the first time, because, you know, I was there on day one, and I was like. I was like, I want to watch them see each other for the first time, because it probably has been a while.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And all I could see was just a lot of love between everyone. Like, there was no, Like, Mary, Betty, like, none of that. When Downton Abbey came around, you were always working, and you're doing theater, and you have an incredible music career. Like, so you're doing so many things that I'm sure fill you in so many different ways, but to sort of be back in that routine of being in front of a camera and specifically, I guess it probably was one of the things, I imagine, one of the things that you did that had consistency, I mean.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Had you ever been a part of a show that, like, you were playing the same role for multiple years?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

No, I'd never been in a series before.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah. And I did feel like there was a kind of a big change in my life, which I did feel, going to England, at which I was. I knew on some level it was another gift that I could not reject, was the gift of starting a family with somebody who wanted to as much as I did, and everything as, you know, that that gives you. And yet, for me, it felt like I was doing it, but I was having to give up this other path that I was on, because even though I knew kind of theoretically, it wasn't entirely the case, but it just felt like physically putting myself in England, which I was determined to do because my husband had a job there and it was secure, and so it felt like the right place to have kids.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And when did you move to England?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

It was in 1991.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And so. But it did feel at the times like I was literally starting in terms of a profession from scratch.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, there's fish. That's gorgeous. Can I just spread it for you? Yeah, that's great. I would love for you to just put it on a plate for me. Yeah. Thank you. When you first moved to England and you were obviously focusing on having a family and did. Were you able to juggle career at that time as well, or did you. Did you take a hiatus?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

It was always. I mean, you know, I think on my tombstone it will read on hiatus. No, because I was always, like, looking for work. But it was, you know, sort of an enforced hiatus.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

But it was nice. I mean, I had genuinely a lot of time with my children when they were little and I think it was some angel saying, you should be here for your kids now. Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you. Like so good. This is perfect. It's exactly what I wanted.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Good choice. Restaurant.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Gorgeous, right? Oh my God. It's really good. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. After the break, we get her reaction on getting an Oscar nomination at age 20 for the 1981 film Ragtime. And we discuss her band, which she's been making music with for over 20 years. Okay, be right back. Vacation season is nearly upon us and this year, you know, I'm treating myself to luxe upgrades that I deserve with Quince's high quality travel essentials at fair prices. Think lightweight loungewear that's perfect for those long haul flights or premium luggage options. The best part, all Quince Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the costs of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quints only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I just love that. I've been eyeing their expandable Carry On Hardshell suitcase, which comes in four sizes and a bunch of colors. It's just so nice to be able to get an extra inch of packing space in if I need it. I love options. I also just had a tab open for the Nappa leather duffel bag, which for under $200 feels like a steal. For your next trip, treat yourself to luxe upgrades you deserve from quints. Go to quints.com JTF for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com JTF to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com JTF okay, let's be honest. Staying hydrated is the only thing keeping me from turning into a raisin these days. That's why Fiji Water is always close by. Fiji Water really is from the islands of Fiji, 1600 miles from the nearest continent. It's filtered through ancient volcanic rock, naturally protected from external elements, and it picks up a unique profile of electrolytes and minerals along the way that gives it more than double the electrolytes electrolytes of the other top premium bottled water brands and that soft, smooth taste that I absolutely love. Unlike some other top premium bottled water brands, Fiji's water electrolytes are 100% naturally occurring. And Fiji's water has a perfect balance. 7.7 pH. I have no idea what that means, but I like the word perfect score. Okay. And since 2022, Fiji's water's 330 and 500 milliliter bottles have been made with 100% recycled. So whether I'm backstage at home with the kids or planning our podcast recording, I know I'm hydrating the earth's finest Fiji water. It's earth's finest water. Hosting dinners on me means I'm often out, whether I'm grabbing sushi with a guest in Los Angeles or traveling to a cozy Italian diner somewhere in New York City. And while I love those conversations, it also means I'm away from home and away from Justin and the kids. That's why we use Simplisafe. I used to think security meant an alarm that went off after someone broke in, but that's honestly too late. Simplisafe is proactive. It helps stop a crime before it starts. Their system uses smart AI powered cameras to spot suspicious activity outside your home, then immediately alerts their professional monitoring agents. Those agents can step in instantly, talking to the person through two way audio, triggering sirens and spotlights, even requesting police dispatch before anyone gets inside. It's real security that lets me focus on my work and my guests and my own life, knowing that my home is covered. Visit SimpliSafe.com Jesse to claim 50 off a new system that's S I M P L-I S A F E.com Jesse. There's no safe like Simplisafe. And we're back with more dinners on me. Can we talk about Ragtime a little bit?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Oh, go on.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

First of all. Okay, so you were in the movie Ragtime. That's why I'm asking about it. For listeners who wanted to know why I just brought up Ragtime randomly, a movie from 1983 and nominated for an Oscar. It was right after Ordinary People, right?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You were a Juilliard at this point.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I was. I left to do the movie.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You left to do Around Time?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Do you. Okay, so I'm interested in like, you spoke about Ordinary People being this audition. You auditioned for it. You. You got it. It was. You didn't really have a history of disappointment. Was the next Next Big thing Ragtime that you auditioned for?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Wow. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay, so with. With Ragtime, you left, then you. So you left you there to do Ragtime. I mean, of course I want to ask about what it feels like for a 20 year old to process getting an Oscar nomination. It feels like as exciting as all these things are, a little destabilizing.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah. Do you know what? It felt wrong, but wrong even to me. I mean, mostly to me. I was like, this is ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense and I don't deserve it, is what I felt. It was my second job. I didn't know what I was doing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I mean, I think it was like the first time it dawned on me that these things are not about deserving them or merit or. I mean, maybe sometimes they are, but it's a thing that's about something else.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It feels separate.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

It's some. It's about keeping the. Kind of the business thing working.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I mean, I found out later I was doing some reading on Ava and there was. I think it was Harry Cohn. I'm gonna say this, and of course, get every detail wrong. So I'm gonna preface it. He had this idea that he would keep disgruntled actors happy by giving them an award every year. And that was the start of the Academy Awards.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love that.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Because he wanted them to do what he wanted them to do.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right. It's like a doggy biscuit.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Let's look into this when we start.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Let's look into it.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah. I think it's Harry Potter. And now it's become such a thing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It completely works. Honestly.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

We buy it, Lockstein. We do.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

We do.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

It's our only way.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, my God. This is fun. You'll appreciate this. I. So I know Downton Abbey won a SAG award. I know we were at that ceremony several times together.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I feel like we were on that circuit.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I think one year we won comedy and you all won drama. We were lucky enough as a cast to win that award four times, which is, I think. I think, for a comedy, ended up being a record.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I think it is.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I think, er, maybe won that many times for drama, but maybe not consecutively. I don't know. There's some sort of record that we have. I don't know. And Aubrey, again, my daughter on the show. She was three when she was cast on the show. And so Aubrey came onto the show and was like, winning SAG Awards immediately. Yeah, she was part of the cast with the SAG Awards. It's like it's. The entire acting ensemble gets the award. So on her first season, she was winning. I think she won. We won four times. She won. The third and fourth time we won, she won a SAG Award. And I remember sitting on the fifth year that we were nominated again, we were sitting next To Edie Falco and her table. I don't. Maybe she was there for nurse Jackie. And Edie, I don't know her super well, but she's like a down to earth New Yorker. Like she's my people, you know, I like her.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

She surprised me.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

She's awesome. And we lost the show, we lost the award. And Aubrey, she's a child of, you know, she's six years old or something, starts crying and Edie just goes, get used to it, kid. Yeah, like in that skin, like it was so funny but also so true. I don't know, just like when we're talking about, you know, this idea that awards are there to keep us happy, it's like. Yeah, because even as like a six year old she was, you know, she knew that like that was disappointing not to get it this time. The awards thing is a very strange facet to this industry. Can I ask a little bit about your music?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Okay. Yes, please. I love it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

First of all, were you always someone who was interested in songwriting and.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

No. I grew up in a family where my image, my brother was the musician, he was a sort of prodigy piano player. And so I never felt like, and quite rightly that I had any talent. And I was right about that. But it was only later when I, when this period when my kids were small and I was just kind of looking for something to do that I went back to take guitar lessons. I'd taken them like most guys kids do when they're young and I'd always kind of played, but I just decided just to have something to do. I, I called up a local guy whose ad I'd seen in the local paper and he started giving me guitar lessons. And as we were, we would get together once a week and I started just writing songs that we'd play and then he would write songs and then we started like, like playing them together and, and then kind of, long story short, we took these songs to his brother who was interested in recording and was and is an absolutely amazing guitar player. And. And his brother put together a band and the three of us started this band which is still the band this is now like 20 years ago.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Do you play an instrument?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I play a little bit of guitar. And you. I played guitar when I was a kid. I play a little bit of piano but I can't sit down and just go. And my son is now, he was taking piano lessons for a little while. We do have a piano in our house and I, it was inspiring me to maybe get back into it. And try. There's this thing about. And I've met. You're like the third person person I've met that has talked about picking up an instrument that they only played a little bit and like, really not necessarily mastering it, but becoming more proficient or.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Just putting themselves into it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I feel like there's that thing with, like, when you. When you become a certain age, like, oh, it's too late. We were talking about this a little bit earlier with just like, you know, careers thing. And I don't know why I feel like I'm having the. Those feelings about it being slay. It's not like, who's it gonna. Who's it gonna hurt if I put it?

[Elizabeth McGovern]

This is what I tell myself. Well, exactly. And there's two things. There's being technically brilliant, right? Yeah, it is too late. It's too late. Way too late for me. There's another thing which is you can find a way of expressing in your way on this thing. Yeah, you can. Funny enough, Blake was just telling me a story about. I think it was Ozzy Osbourne's guitar player who'd had his fingers chopped off because he was working in a factory in Northern England and working with the machines had destroyed the tips of his fingers. And so he had these truncated fingers. And the guys, Ozzy and he, working in the factory, wanted out, as you can imagine. And they were, you know, playing their guitars and he had this problem because of his truncated fingers, so they just detuned all the strings on his guitar to make it less painful for him, created the songs around that and became Ozzy Osbourne in his band.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's incredible.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

And that's the way I look at music. It's like, work with what you've got and do your thing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I just want to like, spotlight something you said earlier when you were talking about ordinary people and feeling in that moment when you were so young and having. Coming out of that feeling, like, oh, God, did I give something? Did I not take advantage of that moment? I just want to macro out for a little bit. And like, I hope that you can look at, like, everything you've done between, you know, obviously your work on film and Downton Abbey, but your work as a writer and as a songwriter and as a mother and like, like realize, like. I mean, I'm probably not telling you anything you haven't thought about, but, like, you've done so much like, I mean, talk about taking a life and like, making something of it. It's like. And it's interesting because. And I think it's important for listeners to hear this, like, when you're that young and when you are 18 and when you are 20, like, you feel like, oh, God, everything. Like, if I don't jump on it now, like, it's gone.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And it's like, it's. I'm. That. That's it. But, you know, we both are in a place where we get to look at this from maybe the higher up on the mountain and see, like, it's so much more about. Like, this. There's so much more there. And, like, your life is so much bigger than those few years and that opportunity.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Because I'm just really struck by, like, how full your life is and how much you've accomplished.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Wonderful things to hear. Oh, thank you so much.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Sometimes it's hard to see that when it's, like, your life, but I guess.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

That'S right because you're living from moment to moment, and there's always something at that moment that's frustrating you about your own limitation or. And. But to, you know, to. To be with your help, to take out and see that bigger picture, it's. It's a. It's a lovely thing. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I've absolutely adored, like, having this time with you. I've seen you from across the room so many times at these events and. Yeah, I always want to get over there and I never really. I never have had the opportunity.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

I've had the same thing and I've watched you in the dark so much.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

You know, it's really a treat.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you for doing this. Have a great show.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Thank you so much. Thank you. You too.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I know. I love that we're both on stage at the same time. I'll be thinking about you inside.

[Elizabeth McGovern]

Yeah. With that fish keeping us going.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This episode of Dinners On Me was recorded at Estiatorio Milos in Hudson Yards, New York City. Next week on Dinners On Me. You know her from prestige TV shows like the Undoing, the Watcher, and more recently on Apple TV's series Murderbot, it's Noma Dumazwini. Well, dive into growing up as a refugee in England, challenging audience expectations with her iconic role as Hermione in Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, both on Broadway and on the West End, which earned her an Olivier and a Tony nomination. And how hard it is not to stare at Alexander Skarsgrd. And if you don't wanna wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners On Me. Plus, as a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to search your free trial today. Dinners on Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Metcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans Dale, she composed our theme music. Our Head of Production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balance Kolasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week. That's the sound of the fully electric Audi Q6E Tron and the quiet confidence of ultra smooth handling. The elevated interior reminds you this is more than an ev. This is electric performance, redefined mind.