Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson

Episode: Elizabeth McGovern — on ‘Downton Abbey’ fame, and what she learned from iconic Hollywood bombshell Ava Gardner
Release Date: September 16, 2025
Location: Estiatorio Milos, Hudson Yards, NYC

Overview

In this intimate and engaging episode, Jesse Tyler Ferguson sits down with acclaimed actor, writer, and musician Elizabeth McGovern for a pre-show meal in New York City. Over fresh Greek cuisine, they discuss Elizabeth’s remarkable career—from her breakout in "Ordinary People" to international stardom in "Downton Abbey," as well as her latest theater project "Ava: The Secret Conversations." The conversation weaves through themes of fame, reinvention, the realities of Hollywood, imposter syndrome, creative fulfillment, and the enduring impact of embracing new artistic challenges at any stage of life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Careers and First Big Breaks

• Elizabeth’s upbringing and entry into acting ([18:54]–[23:20])
  • Grew up in Chicago, moved to Los Angeles at age 10; parents were teachers, not a “Hollywood” family
  • Her family didn’t go to movies, which fostered her independent spirit:

    “It gave me the freedom to not have any kind of desperation about being successful.” ([19:04])

  • Transfer to artsy Oakwood School was transformative, meeting lifelong friend Todd Haynes (now a film director) ([21:05])
• Accidentally scouted ([21:59])
  • Cast in "Ordinary People" after an agent saw her in a school play
  • Booked the role at age 18, attending mass open calls
  • Later reflected on early break:

    “…it took me like the rest of my life to learn that it wasn’t that easy.” ([23:13])

• Juilliard & Robert Redford’s help ([26:17]–[28:30])
  • Auditioned for Juilliard and landed "Ordinary People" at the same time
  • Redford prioritized her education by scheduling filming around her studies:

    “He actually flew me up whenever I had a weekend off and we shot those scenes. I mean, that’s such a caring thing to do.” ([28:24])

2. Fame, Failure, and Finding Purpose

• Navigating early success & disappointment ([23:22]–[24:18])
  • Explains the pain of later rejection after early meteoric success:

    “…there’s an added sort of frisson of failure about that and that I have faced. [...] To me, that felt almost worse than someone going, ‘oh, I’m going to try to be an actor [...] okay, it didn’t work out’…” ([23:52])

• On “Downton Abbey” and ensemble achievements ([25:23]–[25:39])
  • Unexpected phenomenon, especially on PBS in the States
  • Cast camaraderie sometimes gets overshadowed by career anxieties:

    “It’s that kind of peripheral anxiety that has nothing to do with that initial feeling of warmth and camaraderie...It’s a trap.” ([25:21])

• Moving to the UK & family ([32:49]–[33:45])
  • Relocated to England in 1991 to start a family
  • Felt as though she was professionally starting over
  • Embraced periods of hiatus for her children:

    “I think on my tombstone it will read on hiatus.” ([33:27], also [03:03])

3. “Ava: The Secret Conversations” & the Art of Reinvention

• Genesis of the play ([07:00]–[10:17])
  • Discovered Ava Gardner’s memoir on a whim
  • Adapted for stage; explores Gardner’s late-life reckoning and relationships
  • Play parallels Gardner’s marriages with her evolving relationship with biographer Peter Evans
• Casting choices & dramatic devices ([10:25]–[11:09])
  • Biographer actor doubles as all of Ava’s husbands, connecting past and present
  • Striking design and direction noted
• Reflections on female celebrity and cultural memory ([11:47]–[14:55])
  • Discussion pivots to Pamela Anderson as a modern parallel

    “She has now seized it and is doing what she wants with it. And for me, that is a very happy thing to see.” – McGovern ([14:33])

  • The pressure female celebrities face to play to “male fantasy” in order to be seen

4. Oscar Nomination & Meaning of Awards

• Processing the Ragtime nomination ([39:00]–[40:15])
  • Felt undeserving of an Oscar nod at 20:

    “It was my second job. I didn’t know what I was doing… it dawned on me that these things are not about deserving them.” ([39:59])

• Awards as industry currency
  • “It’s about keeping the… kind of the business thing working.” ([40:16])
  • Humorous speculation on the origins of the Oscars as a tool for studio politics ([40:24])
• Anecdote from Jesse about the SAG Awards ([41:08]–[42:33])
  • “Get used to it, kid!” — Edie Falco to a disappointed young castmate ([42:32])

5. Sustaining Creativity: Songwriting and Band Life

• Late-blooming musicianship ([43:21]–[47:17])
  • Inspiration to take up guitar lessons as an adult during a lull in acting work
  • Started a band with her guitar teacher and his brother; still performing together after 20 years
  • Finding value in pursuing new creative outlets, even if not at “virtuoso” level:

    “It’s like, work with what you’ve got and do your thing.” ([47:06])

• Encourages learning at any age

  “There’s being technically brilliant, right? Yeah, it is too late. It’s too late… There’s another thing which is you can find a way of expressing in your way on this thing.” ([45:53])

6. Legacy, Contentment, and Life Perspective

• Jesse’s reflection on Elizabeth’s full, varied career ([47:17]–[48:47])
  • Urges her—and listeners—to appreciate a life that’s richer and more complex than fleeting moments of fame

    “I hope that you can look at, like, everything you’ve done...Like, you’ve done so much. I mean, talk about taking a life and, like, making something of it.” ([48:21])

• Elizabeth’s acceptance and gratitude

  “But to… take out and see that bigger picture, it’s a lovely thing. Thank you.” ([48:53])

• Warm closing sentiments
  • Affectionate mutual respect:

    “I’ve watched you in the dark so much. It’s really a treat.” – McGovern ([49:23])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On reinvention:
  “It’s that kind of thing you can keep doing, and then you just kind of get it right the last time.” – McGovern, on revisiting roles ([06:05])
• On playing the game in Hollywood:
  “She had to sort of play that game... Which she did. And... she has now seized it and is doing what she wants with it.” – McGovern, on Pamela Anderson ([14:27])
• On award show realities:
  “Get used to it, kid.” – Edie Falco to young Aubrey, after losing a SAG Award ([42:32])
• On artistic satisfaction:
  “There’s being technically brilliant, right?... There’s another thing... you can find a way of expressing in your way on this thing.” – McGovern ([45:53])
• Self-aware humor:
  “I think on my tombstone it will read on hiatus.” – McGovern ([03:03], [33:27])

Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |:----------:|-------------------------------------------------------| | 03:03 | Elizabeth enters; playful banter; “on hiatus” tombstone joke | | 07:00–10:17| Genesis and structure of "Ava: The Secret Conversations" | | 12:10–15:00| McGovern and Ferguson discuss parallels between Ava Gardner and modern female celebrities like Pamela Anderson | | 18:54–23:20| Growing up in LA, entry into acting, Oakwood School, Todd Haynes | | 26:17–28:30| Juilliard admission; Robert Redford’s mentorship | | 31:05–32:49| The life change of moving to England and starting over | | 38:34–40:22| "Ragtime," Oscar nom, the strangeness of awards | | 43:21–47:17| McGovern’s 20-year band, creative expansion, late-in-life learning | | 47:17–48:53| Jesse’s reflection on a full life and measuring success | | 49:23–49:41| Mutual gratitude and encouragement to each other before their performances |

Tone & Style

• Warm, candid, and self-deprecating: Both Jesse and Elizabeth lean into humor, honesty, and a mutual sense of being grounded despite high-profile careers.
• Inviting and reflective: The setting in a bustling NYC restaurant adds intimacy and authenticity, making the listener feel like a dinner guest at the table.

For First-Time Listeners

This episode is a must-listen for fans of stage and screen, anyone interested in the realities behind public success, creative reinvention, and the ways artists build meaning in their lives beyond fleeting accolades. Elizabeth McGovern is as thoughtful as she is accomplished—a Hollywood “bombshell” who opted for artistry, personal happiness, and constant creative evolution.