Heather Graham — on Young Fame, Rollergirl, and Becoming a Scream Queen

Summary

Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson

Episode Summary: Heather Graham — on Young Fame, Rollergirl, and Becoming a Scream Queen

Release Date: April 7, 2026
Location: Le Pavillon, Midtown Manhattan

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Episode Overview

In this intimate and engaging episode, Jesse Tyler Ferguson sits down over dinner with actress, writer, and director Heather Graham. The pair dive into Heather's origins in Hollywood, what it was like growing up with a conservative, FBI agent father, her experiences as a “nerdy” theater kid, transitioning into her iconic “pretty girl” film roles, and her navigation of both industry sexism and personal empowerment. They candidly discuss career longevity, artistic agency, the joy and struggle of directing, and why Heather’s friends compare her to Martha Stewart. The conversation is peppered with humor, vulnerability, memorable Hollywood anecdotes, and delicious food.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Childhood, Family, and Early Ambitions

• Heather’s Upbringing:
  • Heather shares she was born in Wisconsin, moved to Virginia due to her father’s FBI job, and landed in LA at age nine.
  • She reflects on being a “nerd” growing up — into books, school plays, and movies, not one of the “pretty” or popular kids.

    “I was nerdy, like, kind of what you were describing, you know, I was, like, smart, and I was just like. Nobody thought I was, like, that pretty.” — Heather (08:20)

• Breaking Into Acting:
  • She started acting at 16, convincing her parents to let her take classes and drive into Hollywood.
  • Her first big job was License to Drive at 17, which came as a shock to classmates who’d overlooked her.

Young Fame & Navigating Hollywood

• First Successes and Perceptions:
  • Playing a “pretty, popular cheerleader” in her breakout role changed how people at school saw her.
  • Her genuine love for performing came from her passion for theater and film, not a quest for popularity.
• Family in the Industry:
  • Heather’s younger sister is also in show business.

Career — From Indie Darlings to Iconic Collaborations

• On Gus Van Sant & Early Films:
  • Drugstore Cowboy with Van Sant was her second major job at 18. She notes Van Sant was an up-and-coming then, “He’d done a small indie film...for, like, $20,000.” (10:31)
• On New Work — “They Will Kill You”:
  • Heather is “having a horror moment,” starring in the new satirical horror film They Will Kill You, which she describes as,

    "Kill Bill meets Get Out meets Rosemary's Baby...It's scary but there's also a lot of humor and a lot of action." (12:23)

  • The film has received energetic audience reactions at festivals.
• On Horror and Carrie Adaptation:
  • Working with Mike Flanagan on Carrie (TV series). Flanagan, a major horror director, is such a fan of her work he bought her Boogie Nights roller skates at an auction!

    “He actually ended up while I was working with him on Carrie...he bought the roller skates from Boogie Nights at this prop auction.” — Heather (14:50)

Boogie Nights and Working with Paul Thomas Anderson

• Cultural Impact and Risks:
  • Boogie Nights was risky for its subject matter at the time; Heather recounts the skepticism,

    "At that time, it was kind of on the border of like, oh, maybe you shouldn't be doing that...But I think now people are more open minded about like, what we're watching." (17:38, 18:18)

• Memorable Scene:
  • Jesse recalls the emotionally impactful scene with Julianne Moore,

    "...that scene with you and Julianne Moore. When you're asking her to call you—she's like, 'Can I please call you Mom?' and she says, 'Okay, I can do that for you.' It's such a gorgeous scene." — Jesse (18:32)

Artistic Agency & Shifting to Behind the Camera

• On Writing & Directing:
  • Heather discusses starting to write and direct her own films (Half Magic, Chosen Family) due to the lack of strong female-led stories.

    “There's not as many projects...with female protagonists...I wanted to be telling stories that were about things that I cared about with a female protagonist and put myself in them.” — Heather (21:25)

  • She aspires to create a production company focused on female-driven stories and even has an idea for a cooking show centered on candid, food-driven conversation and women’s experiences.
• Challenges of Directing:
  • The business and post-production side can be daunting, but the creative process is rewarding.
  • Casting is “really sad” — careers (and roles) are often decided by money, perception, or even social media metrics.

    “Now...people are getting cast because they have Instagram followers and they're not even actors.” (38:02)

Navigating Typecasting, Sexism, and Power Dynamics

• Typecasting and the “Sexy” Trap:
  • Early career roles (stripper, porn star, drug addict) gave her empathy for typecasting, the struggle for female artists to balance being “sexy, but not too sexy,” and how it’s a uniquely female experience in Hollywood.

    “It’s kind of confusing as a woman to be like...how sexy is too sexy and how sexy is not sexy enough, you know, and it's like, that's hard to navigate as a woman sometimes, you know?...Which I think is kind of sexism.” (23:34)

• Being Independent & Weinstein Era:
  • Heather’s independence is in part a response to a controlling upbringing,

    "When I grew up, my father was really controlling...I remember thinking, I'm never going to have somebody to say that to me again." (26:00)

  • She briefly discusses being “blacklisted” by Harvey Weinstein ("not by the whole business, but by him") and finds satisfaction in “seeing justice being served.” (26:46, 27:11)

Chosen Family, Friendship, and Finding Peace

• Her Social World:
  • Estranged from her biological family, Heather proudly celebrates her “chosen family” of close friends and boyfriend.
  • Friendship, food, and creating space at her dinner table is a major part of her life.

    “I made this movie called Chosen Family, and I feel like my friends are my family.” (34:40)

Food, Meditation, and ‘Martha Stewart’ Vibes

• Dinner Parties & Cooking:
  • Heather is an avid dinner host, often cooking vegan and scratch-made meals for up to 14 people.

    "All my friends are like, you should have a cooking show...I try to make everything from scratch." (31:57)

• Meditation Practice:
  • She is devoted to transcendental meditation, which she attributes to advice from David Lynch,

    “He's the one who told me to do it...I'm, like, very disciplined.” (32:52)

• Self-Love Through Food:
  • For Heather, cooking is an expression of nurturing and love, even meditative at times.

Reflections on Success, Longevity, and Modern Industry Realities

• Audience and Endurance:
  • Both Jesse and Heather find it “so nice that people...still watch” their work years later.
  • They remark on the fickleness and randomness of casting, the growing importance of social media following, and how the industry has changed from pure talent to marketability metrics.

    "What it does scare me...is that it's gonna require like that type of person now to like..." — Jesse (39:08)

• Directing Addiction:
  • Directing is a “labor of love” she wants to return to, likening its highs and lows to an addiction.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On School & Early Hollywood:
  • “I had very bad style and bad hair and makeup. Like, I did not know how to... And then people were like, oh...maybe we should have, like, paid attention to her.” — Heather (08:20)
• On Horror’s Appeal:
  • “It’s not just, like, the whole time, you know, totally disturbing. It's scary. But there's also a lot of humor and...action.” — Heather (11:21)
• On Paul Thomas Anderson’s Legacy:
  • “You were so wonderful in it...such an impact...just like an actor and like someone who loves film.” — Jesse (17:15)
• On Starting a Production Company:
  • “My goal is to start a production company...like Hello Sunshine or LuckyChap or just making stories from a female perspective.” — Heather (21:25)
• On Hollywood’s Changing Values:
  • “People are getting cast because they have Instagram followers and they're not even actors.” — Heather (38:02)
• On the Power of Chosen Family:
  • “I'm estranged from my family...I feel like my friends are my family.” — Heather (34:40)
• On Transcendental Meditation:
  • "He's the one who told me to do it. I’m very disciplined...I've done it probably 90% of the time." — Heather (32:52)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:13 — Heather discusses being cast as the “pretty cheerleader” but not feeling noticed in high school.
• 06:51 — Heather and Jesse bond over nerdy roots and school theater.
• 08:00 — Early Hollywood stories and her first “big moment” at 17.
• 10:25 — Her first films with Gus Van Sant.
• 11:16 — Reactions to her new horror film at festivals.
• 14:50 — Mike Flanagan buys her Boogie Nights roller skates.
• 17:04 — Describing Boogie Nights’ impact and risk factor.
• 21:25 — Why Heather started writing and directing her own films.
• 23:34 — Gendered challenges of typecasting and “how sexy is too sexy.”
• 26:00 — On independence, control, and being blacklisted by Harvey Weinstein.
• 31:54 — Hosting dinner parties and friends comparing her to Martha Stewart.
• 32:52 — Her daily meditation practice inspired by David Lynch.
• 34:40 — Importance of “chosen family” and building her personal community.
• 36:00 — Directing and writing movies; the pain and appeal of directing.
• 38:02 — Industry shift to valuing social media over talent in casting.

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Tone, Style, and Atmosphere

The tone is warm, candid, and conversational, balancing humor with moments of vulnerability and honest critique of Hollywood’s changing nature. The chemistry between Jesse and Heather creates a relaxed space for both lighthearted reflection and substantial commentary on gender, power, independence, and artistry.

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This episode is a must-hear for fans of Heather Graham and those interested in the evolving challenges and triumphs of women in Hollywood. Whether discussing food, film, or feminist vision, Heather’s wit and wisdom shine through.

Transcript

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Spring break planning at our house is it's definitely an adventure. Our kids have very strong opinions and they're always on different sides of the spectrum. Beckett has very strong opinions about the ocean. It has to be a certain temperature and the wind has to be blowing a certain way if he's gonna get anywhere near it. He doesn't want sand on his feet. Sully, on the other hand, he will roll around in the sand and doesn't care about the water temperature. And he, you know, he could be just sitting amongst seagulls and he's happy. Justin and I, we just want to air conditioning and wifi. Honestly, juggling all the details of a trip can be very stressful. And while I'm thinking about our plans, I also start thinking about our house while we're away. And it hits me. Maybe we could list our place on Airbnb while we're gone. It always sounds great, but I don't know if I can manage all the details myself. That's where Airbnb's co host network comes in. You can hire a vetted local co host to handle all the behind the scenes details, managing reservations, guest communications, and even providing on site. So hosting feels manageable even with everything else going on. So if you're traveling this spring, it might be the perfect time to list your space on Airbnb and maybe earn a little extra cash while you're gone to put toward that extra future travel someplace with air conditioning and Wi fi. If you're ready to host but could use a little extra help, find a co [e-mail] host so right now I'm in New York City. I am doing a play about Truman Capote and It's basically a one man show, just me for 90 minutes. I am basically eating, breathing, sleeping Truman Capote and this play. And I have very little time for myself, let alone time to cook for myself. That's why Home Chef has been a total lifesaver at this point in my life. They deliver fresh pre portioned ingredients straight to my door. And the recipes are so easy to follow. Whatever kind of day you're having, Home Chef has you covered. From classic recipes with fresh ingredients and home 30 minute meals to oven ready trays and quick microwavable lunches. There's even a dedicated family menu for easy four to six serving dinners. And this is the most important part. They all taste amazing. Like restaurant quality amazing. Home Chef has worked with chefs like Gordon Ramsay and now Giada De Laurentiis bringing chef inspired recipes right to your kitchen. Plus, it's affordable. Home Chef customers save an average of $86 per month on groceries for a limited time. Home Chef is offering my listener 50% off and free shipping for your first box. Plus free dessert for life. Go to homechef.com dom that's homechef.com dom for 50% off your first box and free dessert for life. Must be an active subscriber to receive free dessert. Hey, it's Jessie today on the show. You know her from iconic movies like Boogie Nights, the Hangover. She has a new film out called they will kill you. It's the iconic Heather Graham.

[Heather Graham]

Nobody thought I was, like, that pretty, so I got this job as, like, the popular, pretty cheerleader. And then people were like, oh. Like, it came out right as I was graduating. And I think, like, people were like, well, maybe we should have, like, paid attention to her.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

This is dinner's on me. And I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. So today we're at LA Pavilion in midtown Manhattan outside of Grand Central Station. This is Daniel Boulud's seafood flavor Forward restaurant. I've been hearing about this place for years. I'm so excited to try it. Places like this always make me think that I've stumbled upon some little alcove where business deals are being made and negotiations are happening and people are, you know, whispering over really fancy seafood. And I thought this would be a great place to bring Heather Graham, who has been in this business a very long time and I'm sure has lots of tidbits about the industry and wonderful stories to share with me. This is a beautiful setting to have a great conversation with a new friend. I think she's coming shortly, so get to the conversation. So this was your suggestion?

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I've been here one time on a romantic date.

[Heather Graham]

Yes.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes. Hi.

[Restaurant Server]

Hello. Welcome to Le Pavillon.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

How are you doing?

[Heather Graham]

How are you?

[Restaurant Server]

Everything is good so far?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So far, so good.

[Restaurant Server]

Okay, so we have one. I mean, if you have any recommendation, we have a few of the classic at the restaurant. We have the grill avocado salad.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Restaurant Server]

Grill avocado salad comes with airborne berries on the bottom. So with the green yogurt, kale chips, and Harry sassos, then we have. If you want to do something a little bit more light, we can do a nice Spanish macaron. Spanish mackerel comes like a sashimi style or ceviche style, served with green papaya salad on the bottom, served with a cucumber mint vinaigrette, mole in creme fishery.

[Heather Graham]

Wow, that's a nice mole. That's interesting.

[Restaurant Server]

Yes, very, very, very tasty. And also one of my favorite for this season is the red snapper bouillabes steak. You never run, never run with the steak. We have a timber carrots, chipotle onions and big mushrooms. Very good, actually.

[Heather Graham]

Sounds great.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, my gosh. I was, I was sort of looking at the scallops, but now I feel like I might want steak.

[Heather Graham]

I know. Well, if you want, you could get the scallops, I could get the steak and we could split it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I would do that.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay.

[Heather Graham]

I like tasting.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Let's do that.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And then do you want to start with something?

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, maybe. Okay. So the one that you're recommending, did you say the mackerel is what you're recommending?

[Restaurant Server]

Mackerel is great.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That sounds so good.

[Heather Graham]

It sounds so good.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you very much. Thanks so much.

[Restaurant Server]

Anything.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Appreciate it.

[Heather Graham]

This is very romantic.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Very romantic.

[Heather Graham]

I know. I mean, it's so beautiful. All these plants they have in here.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I know, it's gorgeous. So you say you're. You live in LA and New York.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And you, you like, you lived a lot of your life in la, right?

[Heather Graham]

Well, my father was in the FBI and I was born in Washington. I was born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. He was working there. He's from Philadelphia. My mom's from New Jersey. Then we moved outside of Washington D.C. to Virginia, and then we moved to LA when I was nine. So I'm pretty from LA.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay. What was it like being in LA? It is it. Were you working as a nine year old?

[Heather Graham]

No, I. I wanted to be. Were you?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, I mean, I. Okay. Not working. I mean.

[Heather Graham]

Where are you from?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Albuquerque.

[Heather Graham]

Okay.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I was doing theater.

[Heather Graham]

Okay.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But like, you know, not being paid.

[Heather Graham]

It was extra curriculum. No, I was doing like school plays. Yeah, I was like, I would live for the school play. Like, I gotta be in the school play. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I was a nerd who liked to be inside.

[Heather Graham]

I was just a total nerd. Like, I want to read books, I want to like, watch movies. I want to be in musical theater. I want to be in the play. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You would have been really good friends. So you were doing that. But you were in this, you were like right up against this industry that.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, my father was really religious, so he was kind of like wary of the entertainment business. So it took a lot of talking him into it to, you know, I had to pretty much be like 16. But then I started driving into the city and working on films. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Do you have siblings or are you an older sibling?

[Heather Graham]

I have a younger sister, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And is she an actress?

[Heather Graham]

She is in the business, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And what was your first. Was your first big thing with. With Gus Van Sant?

[Heather Graham]

That was my second. It's funny because I just. My very first movie was called License to Drive with Corey Haim and Corey Feldman. And I recently just saw Corey Feldman, like, two days ago. It was funny. Yeah. But have you seen him? No, I haven't seen him in a long time, but I just kind of ran into him. But. But no, it's funny because some people still remember that movie. It's.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's.

[Heather Graham]

It's wild. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And you were what, 17?

[Heather Graham]

18. 17. I was 17. I was in high school, and it was huge for me. Like, that was a huge moment. Yeah. I got to, like, make money. Like, I was in. I was like. I had a bank account, you know, and I could, like, live on my own. It was amazing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What did, like, your friends at school think when you were so. I imagine, like, in LA would. There were, like, a lot of people that were.

[Heather Graham]

I was nerdy, like, kind of what you were describing, you know, I was, like, smart, and I was just like. Nobody thought I was, like, that pretty. So I got this job as, like, the popular, pretty cheerleader. And I had very bad style and bad hair and makeup. Like, I did not know how to, like, you know, do that. And. And then people were like, oh. Like, it came out right as I was graduating. And I think, like, people were like, well, maybe we should have, like, paid attention to her, you know? Oh, my gosh. That's so pretty.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's why I kind of want to

[Restaurant Server]

take a picture you a little bit about the food right now.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes.

[Heather Graham]

Wow.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That is.

[Restaurant Server]

We have a beautiful Spanish mackerel. Spanish mackerel comes with a green papaya salad.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Restaurant Server]

Cucumber. Finish it with mole and creme fresh on it. Oyster Vanderbilt. Oyster Vanderbilt is made with white chowder sauce. On the top, we have a beautiful butter made with seaweed, parsley, hazelnut, and breadcrumbs. The chip recommend. Eat the oyster with a spoon.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes.

[Restaurant Server]

Just be careful. It's hot. Okay.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay, I'm gonna like.

[Restaurant Server]

And then with the bread, we have a sourdough. We have parmesan, garlic focaccia.

[Heather Graham]

Wow.

[Restaurant Server]

Lavash. And a beautiful jamboardier butter.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you.

[Heather Graham]

This is really pretty gorgeous.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's really good.

[Heather Graham]

Is it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That bread just cracked.

[Heather Graham]

Oh, yeah. No, that bread is so good. But wait, I kind of feel like to try. Trying this.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you. When you. So what. How did you get that first audition? Were you. Did you have someone working for you? Were you. Did you go to.

[Heather Graham]

Oh, you mean my first real audition, like, for the.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

The. The first movie you did?

[Heather Graham]

Oh, yeah. Well, I used. I would go to acting classes in the city, so I would drive. I finally got my driver's license. I convinced my parents to, like, let me go to acting classes in the city. So I was going to acting classes, and I convinced my acting teacher to introduce me to her agent, and then they represented me and sent me on audition.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So, like. But the Gus Van Sant thing, I

[Heather Graham]

mean, I know that was after license to drive, Right?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay. And that was like. You were 19.

[Heather Graham]

18.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

18.

[Heather Graham]

Wow.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And at that point, was Gus someone who had. That was like, the beginning of his career.

[Heather Graham]

He done a small indie film. Most people haven't seen it. It's called malinoche for, like, $20,000. So that was his first movie. Really?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Wow.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You are promoting this new movie, which I'm really excited.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah. We have to talk about that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. They will kill you.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I was supposed to get a screener last night. I did not get it.

[Heather Graham]

It's fun to watch with people because, you know, it was at south by Southwest, and it was great.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, thank you. It's really fun to watch it with people. It's sort of like the movie that you would like. It makes you. It's great in a theater because I watched it with, like, agents and managers. And then I went and watched it with these people at film festival. People were, like, screaming and people were, like, clapping people, like, ah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You know, I mean, in the trailer that I did watch, I mean, it's so gory in, like, a fun way.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, no, it's funny. It's like, because I do get scared by horror movies, but it's not just, like, the whole time, you know, totally disturbing. It's scary. But there's also a lot of humor and there's, like, a lot of action.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So, I mean, I could tell just from watching the trailer, but I mean, like, I was part of this movie, Cocaine Bear, which should also.

[Heather Graham]

That's how you know Carrie Russell, right?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. It has, like, this sort of, like, pulp, like, comedy, but also, like this, like, Coen Brothers kind of vibe. And, like, it's just a real fun mashup. And, you know, we went to. To Ireland to shoot.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah. Because that movie was, like, a big hit. Right. I remember. So I think it's a good.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, we shot. We shot we shot in Ireland as Georgia and I know that you shot in South Africa.

[Heather Graham]

Yes, as New York. Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Which is crazy. But shooting New York and South Africa,

[Heather Graham]

I mean, it's because they built all the sets.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay.

[Heather Graham]

The sets are really cool.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And it's about. It's about like a satanic cult that is in a like lives in like a high end apartment building.

[Heather Graham]

It's kind of like Kill Bill meets Get out meets Rosemary's Baby.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Sold.

[Heather Graham]

If you like, sold.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You got real estate, you got gore, you got action.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, but it's like fun. There's a kind of stylized quality. My boyfriend also compared it to the Evil Dead, which I've actually never seen that movie, but. But that's like a classic. But there's a fun actiony aspect that's stylized. So it's not just like, you know, someone stabbing someone throughout the whole, you know, but it's like, it's fun. Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Heather tells me all about what it was like to work with now newly Oscar award winning director Paul Thomas Anderson on one of his first films. Boogie Nights,

[Heather Graham]

K Pop, Demon Hunter's Haja Boys Breakfast Meal and Hunt Tricks Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It is an honor to share.

[Heather Graham]

No, it's our honor.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It is our larger honor.

[Heather Graham]

No, really, stop. You can really feel the respect in this battle. Pick a meal to pick a side

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

and participate in McDonald's while supplies last.

[Heather Graham]

I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies. Just because we finished rewatching the Office does not mean we're going anywhere. Every Wednesday we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from the Office and our friendship with brand new guests. Plus, you can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. So follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odysee app and wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And we're back with more dinners on me. And you're also. Well, you're doing. So are you doing something with Carrie that's coming out? You're kind of like in this Korra era right now.

[Heather Graham]

I know for some reason this is not even like. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how it happened. But I've suddenly gotten into a bunch of horror movies and. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And Carrie's gonna be a limited series.

[Restaurant Server]

Is it?

[Heather Graham]

It's a series. I think they might actually try to, you know, go be a series. Yeah, they have, like, some plot points that could keep going. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, that's very.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah. Well, it's Mike Flanagan. He's really a cool, great, talented guy. He's really lovely. And he actually ended up while I was working with him on Carrie. He bought the roller skates from Boogie Nights at this prop auction. Yeah. He called me and he sent me the photo. He's like, are these real? And then he bought, like, an outfit that I was wearing, you know, and like this necklace. He's like, that's all this stuff real? Cause he's like, I'm about to buy it from this crop auction.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Are you serious?

[Heather Graham]

Now he has it at his house? Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

He owns your.

[Heather Graham]

He owns it. Well, there were two pair. Like, there was a pair that the movie company kept, and then there was a pair they gave to me. So the pair that I had, I ended up giving it to the Academy museum. So. Yeah. And then he bought the one that the movie company had that they were, like, auctioning.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, my God.

[Heather Graham]

Isn't that funny?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love that.

[Heather Graham]

I know. He texted me one day. He's like, are these your roller skates? Because I'm about to, like, buy them.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That is.

[Heather Graham]

No, but he has, like, rooms in his house with props from all these movies. Like, he has so many cool movie props.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

He's a collector.

[Heather Graham]

He's just like. He loves movies and TV and he just, like, remembers every shot. And he's like, a huge fan. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, he's so great. I mean, I look at your career, though, and like, Gus Van San Paul Thomas Anderson.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You have like, this list of people that I'm just like, are my dream directors.

[Heather Graham]

I know. It's been lucky. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Do you ever, like, look back and, like, take stock of this?

[Heather Graham]

Yeah. I mean, it's funny, cuz sometimes, like, I'll. I've. I'll sign autographs and then people have these pictures from the different things you do, and it's just. It almost feels like it's another lifetime ago. But it's you, so you know that it's you. But you're like, wow. You know, like. Because when I. When I was in Twin Peaks, I was like, 21, so it's wild to think of that, you know?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Heather Graham]

No, it is really lucky. It's. It's Very lucky. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I could say that of you too, you know, I mean, it's very lucky to get into something that people are still. People still watch for sure.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Play right now. And people are sending photographs of, like, things I have done, you know, that's so nice. 20 years ago for me to sign. And it is. Yeah. It's wonderful that your work.

[Heather Graham]

It's so nice that people like you do something and someone is still watches it or still knows it, you know, however many years later. It's really cool.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, I have to say, Boogie Nights. I mean, Paul Thomas Anderson for me is just like, he's one of the greatest. I'm so thrilled that he has an Oscar.

[Heather Graham]

I know, I know. It's really cool.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You know, he's been nominated so many times. I know, but that movie is so special. You were so wonderful in it.

[Heather Graham]

Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, it's such. It had such an impact on me. It's just like an actor and like someone who loves film. I mean, it really was a seminal movie for me.

[Heather Graham]

Wow.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Also because I felt like at the moment I was, you know, I was younger when it. We're close to the same age.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

How old you were when you shot it was how old I was when I saw it.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah. And that was how old Paul was when he directed it. Which is kind of wild. Right? Like, that's very young. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But you know, a movie about the 70s porn industry, it's like at that

[Heather Graham]

time people were not making those kinds of things. I mean, nowadays people be like, oh, yeah, sure. And they would not judge it. But at that time, it was kind of on the border of like, oh, maybe you shouldn't be doing that. That's like creepy.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It definitely felt risky.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, it was risky. And in fact, I remember going on like, do you remember that show? It was like Dr. Drew and Adam Carolla. And I remember him giving me a really hard time. Like, that's going to be a terrible idea. And like, you know, he was basically saying, like, you know, it sounds really like, whatever, exploitative or whatever, you know.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah. And then later he evolved. Apologize.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, I mean, it was not.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, he was wrong.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Heather Graham]

But I think now people are more open minded about like, what we're watching. But at that time it was like, oh, you can't do that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But it's such a testament to, like, great filmmakers because you could take any subject and I mean, obviously the script needs to be wonderful, but like, he did it with such care.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That movie was so beautifully written and shot. I mean, I still think about that scene with you and Julianne Moore. When you're asking her to call you, she's like, can I please call you Mom?

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And like, can I? I need to believe it. And she says, okay, I can do that for you. It's such a gorgeous scene. Oh, my God.

[Heather Graham]

Oh, you're bringing this as, like, three courses or. That is exciting. Wait, should we be filming? It's so dorky. Okay. I have to dorkishly. You're gonna, like, light it on fire or something.

[Restaurant Server]

This is the sea scallops. We have a lemon juice over here. Make a little bit of aroma.

[Heather Graham]

Wow.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay.

[Restaurant Server]

We have Africa release us. We have a pickled bikino peppers and almond.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

This is so decadent.

[Heather Graham]

That is really pretty gorgeous. Okay. I love that we're trying both. It's so good.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I know, Me too. This is such a good idea. Yeah.

[Heather Graham]

Wait, what is this thing on the top?

[Restaurant Server]

I, I. Oh, that's cool.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So pretty please enjoy. Thank you so much. Wow.

[Heather Graham]

It's really, like, artistic. But no, I want all your restaurant recommendations, too.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I will. I'll give them to you. The beginning of your career was definitely like, the, you know, you played a stripper, you played a porn star, you played a drug addict. You know, you had, like, these kind of these very, like, characters that could have been perceived as, like, sort of, like, easily labeled, I would say. And what I've always been struck by your work is that you have brought such depth and humanity to all these different people.

[Heather Graham]

That's very awesome of you to say that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Well, I mean, part of it said, the scripts are so great too, but, like, you have done. I mean, if you, like, just sort of, like, listed what these characters are, I think, you know, people would be like, oh, yeah, these are the careers that, like, someone does. These are the roles that someone does at the beginning of their acting career. But, like, if you, like, really look at what these, these movies and these roles were, like, there was such depth and, and humanity to all these people. And, you know, what I also love is that, you know, in the midpoint of your career, like, you just started, like, writing your own material and directing. What was that shift for you to. Obviously, you know, it's like, I'm in this place with my career where I was like, if you don't make things happen yourself, like, they just don't happen. I certainly understand that. Like, I understand the hustle and, like, needing to, like, yeah, you have an idea. You have to like do it yourself. You can't wait for someone else to help you out. Yeah, but it's also scary, I find, to like take that leap. But I mean, what was it like for you to kind of just. I mean, what was the impetus for you to really start creating your own work?

[Heather Graham]

Well, it's like what you said, basically, you know, there's not as many projects I feel like happening with female protagonists. I mean, there are some, but I wanted to be telling stories that were about things that I cared about with a female protagonist and put myself in them. So I wasn't trying to get someone else to hire me. And just it's. I like the process, you know, just the process of like developing something, writing something. I mean, finding the money is like challenging. You know, it forces you to be like a business person that you're not really. Wasn't really my, like, original intention. But it's interesting to learn about. But like, you know, the learning how to shoot things and figuring out how to. It's fun. The acting part and casting other actors and working with actors, that's really fun. But like the post production, it's just. It's cool to learn about all that stuff, you know. And I get. My goal is to start a production company that I'm working on that and just like, kind of like a hello Sunshine or like A Lucky Chap or just making sort of stories that are like from a female perspective. And I have an idea for a cooking show too, that I don't know. I'm inspired by people like you doing cool stuff like this where, you know, something that celebrates just like food and like women, like kind of the conversations what you're saying about, like when you have great food with someone, you can get into like a really cool, intimate conversation and really kind of connect and bond and talk about. I think in my show, like, talk about like sex and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Do you ever feel. Because I have certainly felt, having done a role for 11 years on a sitcom, there's a great deal of counter programming that has to happen happen if I want to move forward artistically in my career.

[Heather Graham]

With maybe the problem being that you're such a hit, you're in such a hit when people think of you in that way because you're such a huge hit.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Sure. I mean, like, yeah, if you do one thing for like 11 years, like, that's. I mean, of course you're in people's living rooms, that's what they're going to see you doing.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, when you were at the beginning of your career, did you ever. Did you feel like there was a bit of counter programming you had to do in order to. For people to not see you a certain way? I mean, well, it's kind of confusing

[Heather Graham]

as a woman to be like. Because on one hand you're like, okay, well, I want to play, like, a leading lady or sexy. But then you don't want to be too sexy. And it's like, well, how sexy is too sexy and how sexy is not sexy enough, you know, and it's like, that's hard to navigate as a woman sometimes, you know?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Heather Graham]

Which I think is kind of sexism, you know, because I don't think men really kind of deal with that, you know?

[Restaurant Server]

Agreed.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Heather Graham]

But the culture, I think. Yeah. I just think as a woman growing up, there weren't a lot of examples of, like, female directors and writers. I mean, there's a few, but I'm great that there's more now. But I just think, you know, how we consume media, it affects how we think about life and affects how we think about ourselves. So I think it's good for women and girls growing up to see more, you know, things that help them feel like, well, they can achieve their dreams or what they think matters. Because I think if you're always seeing yourself as. As, like a supporting character, you don't feel like what you. What you want matters as much. You're kind of, like, there in service to someone else. So that's why I think it is important that women can watch things where, like, women are the heroes and women are the protagonists, or women are the antiheroes, or women can be complicated and screwed up. And because that character is very common for men in movies. You know, like that Jack Nicholson character who's like, he's bad, but he's good, you know, but it's not as common for women, you know?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we return, Heather tells me about how her upbringing led her to become the fiercely independent woman she is today, and why her friends have compared her to Martha Stewart. Okay, be right back. This episode is brought to you by Fandango. People say fans are too distracted these days, but the truth is, when a great movie hits the screen, you show up, you stay glued, invested, part of the story. And without fans like you, there'd be no cinema magic, no shared moments. So head to fandango.com to get tickets, stream or rent or buy top movies and series Fandango Loves fans. And we're back with more dinners on me. You seem to me, because I don't know you that well, but someone who's been very independent their entire life.

[Heather Graham]

I know I'm really independent.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And once you had it really held on to that.

[Heather Graham]

I know, I know.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, I'm very independent, very protective of, you know what you want to do.

[Heather Graham]

And like, I know it's probably because when I grew up, my father was really controlling and he would be like, when you're at my, in my house, you have to do what I say. And I remember thinking, I'm never going to have somebody to say that to me again. Do you know? So then I'm like, I'm going to own two houses and I'm going to like, want to do whatever I want. You know what I mean? So, yeah, that's good.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, and you could be like, we, we don't need to talk about this. But I know that you've spoken about, you know, how you with Harvey Weinstein, how you feel like you were. And again, like, we don't need to talk. But, you know, I know you've, you've talked about how you feel like you were blacklisted for a little while because

[Heather Graham]

of, well, not by the whole business, but by him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And, you know, just that idea that someone could have jurisdiction over your career, even in like, their circles, after all the hard work that you've put into your career is mind blowing to me. First of all, I'm so sorry that

[Heather Graham]

that happened to you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Have you found comfort in other people who have had those similar stories? I know so many people, so many of my friends who have.

[Heather Graham]

Well, I mean, that moment in time was such as a woman. It was a very cool moment where so many women were coming forward with stories because it feels like, I mean, I'm sure I wasn't the first woman in the history of, like, life to have stuff like that happen. I just think this has happened to women for, through the centuries and a lot of times just like no one ever gets to complain about it. Nothing ever gets done about it. So I think at least people started talking about it, which I think is amazing. And it's cool. Like, he ended up in jail. I mean, that was like the most satisfying news that I feel like I ever read. Because sometimes it feels like rich and powerful people get away with things and when they don't, it's so satisfying to see justice being served. So I think it was a great moment in that a lot of people came forward with, like, sexual abuse stories and that people felt empowered. And I think a lot of things about, like, I mean, luckily, like, I don't know, nothing happened with me in terms of, like, physically, you know, being attacked or anything or. But, But I just think it's. I think our culture could evolve the past. The point of feeling like, you know, victims of sexual abuse or survivors or can talk about it, you know, because I think that's how people deal with the consequences of their actions instead of just like, you know, acting like, oh, I should feel bad about myself because this person's, like, horrible, you know, So I think it's. It's really good that more people are feeling empowered to speak out about stuff like that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I. Do you feel like things are getting better and the consequences are being. I, I, I personally feel like I see more consequences.

[Heather Graham]

Right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I still think, you know, there's probably so many things that happen.

[Heather Graham]

No, I think the really horrible, abusive people are probably still doing it and getting away with it. There are still people, obviously we both could think of people that are still doing it and getting away with it, But I do feel like the conversation has been open, so now more people are open to talking about it. Whereas I think in the past you had to be, like, super ballsy to even bring it up at all, you know?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right. Yeah.

[Heather Graham]

What do you think?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, I'm not a woman in this industry, and I feel like it's. It's really worse for.

[Heather Graham]

No, it's sad because they're, I mean, all these things people have talked about, but, like, oh, well, it's your fault if you got into this awkward situation in the wrong moment or, you know, just make sure you never get in that situation. Or, like, you know, how do you, like, turn down somebody without hurting their feelings to the point where they never want to work with you? You know what I mean?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. And I could certainly relate to that. I remember, like, early dating in New York. I remember being with people that I was like, oh, I just want to make them feel bad. And like.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And the consequences weren't quite as big because they weren't like, Hollywood taste makers or, like, you know, directors or producers. Like, you know, it was just someone that I didn't want to hurt their feelings and I did things with them that I didn't want to do because I didn't want to, like, make the situation awkward.

[Heather Graham]

I feel like it's like a people pleaser element, which I definitely had growing up, and I'm working very hard not to, but yeah, I think that's what.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It does get easier with age though, right?

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You're just like, why do I have

[Heather Graham]

to make myself this person that I don't even care about?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, right. But I, I personally still find myself slipping into that sometimes and I have to remind myself that I'm a 50, 50 year old man and I don't need to do that anymore.

[Heather Graham]

And is it that working?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Sometimes. Sometimes it does.

[Heather Graham]

Oh my God. I have to take another picture.

[Restaurant Server]

Have carrot here in the bottom. We have a timbolina, carrot, pear, onions, short ribs. Finish it with Jesse rotisserie sauce.

[Heather Graham]

That's really pretty.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Is this part of the mushroom? Wait, this is.

[Heather Graham]

No, I think it's meat.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's like short rib.

[Heather Graham]

It's so good.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's great. Oh my God, I love that you're such a foodie. I mean, would you ever. Do you cook?

[Heather Graham]

I have dinner parties a lot.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Do you?

[Heather Graham]

You should come over.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I accept the invitation. Do you find cooking to be peaceful? Do you stress out about it?

[Heather Graham]

I mean, I kind of feel like it's a means to an end. I mean, I. There's aspects I like, but sometimes I'm like, it feels loving and nurturing both to myself and to other people to just like, I'm gonna make you something to eat from scratch. And that's my way of saying like, I love you or like, I want to have you around, I want to enjoy food with you. I mean, I have this group of girlfriends and they come over and two of my friends are vegan, so I make a lot of vegan food for them. But I have dinner parties with like 14 people and I make food, you know? Yeah, yeah, I think I'm good, you know, I mean, I'm not going to open my own restaurant and, and cook for like 50 people, but I think I'm good enough to make a good dinner party.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

If people are coming over to your house knowing you're, you know.

[Heather Graham]

No, all my friends are like, you should have a cooking show. Like, you know, someone even compared me to like Martha Stewart, which is not true because I don't have like place settings and stuff. But I make a lot of food. Like, I try to make everything from scratch. Like I'll make like pickled onions and I'll make like a tahini sauce and I'll make like, you know, meat for the people that eat meat and then I'll make vegan food for the people who want vegan food, you know, And I, I just Want it to be fresh and just, like, healthy and tasty, you know?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Heather Graham]

I do think it's meditative, but sometimes it's a lot of work. Like chopping. Chopping. But, like, I'll do something else.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I find this so meditative, like the mise en place, putting everything together. Like, that's the part I really like, zone out if I can do.

[Heather Graham]

I like to, like, listen to a book or listen to something and then. And cook at the same time. Same, you know? Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I, for one, I need to get back into it. But I was doing transcendental meditation.

[Heather Graham]

I do that. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Do you? Okay. I went to the David lynch foundation in la.

[Heather Graham]

He's the one who told me to do it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Did he? Okay, interesting. So he, like, when you were doing Twin Peaks, he talked to you about it. So he was already, like, deep into meditation?

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, he was doing it every day at lunch. He was like, you should do this. He introduced me to his friend who's a meditation teacher. I'm still friends with her now.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, I really love it. And I was really.

[Heather Graham]

And you feel like it. It helped you and changed your life.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, it did. And I have not kept up with it. So do you do it? I do it every day.

[Heather Graham]

I'm, like, very disciplined. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Two times a day.

[Heather Graham]

I mean, have I done it? I started when I was 21. Have I done it every single day? No, but have I done it? Probably like, 90% of the time, yes.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's incredible.

[Heather Graham]

Isn't that cool? Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You're supposed to do it. So do you do it like, 20 minutes in the morning and then 20 minutes?

[Heather Graham]

I mean, sometimes I cheat and do it 40 minutes in the morning just because I'm, like, not a morning person. So it helps me wake up, but I sometimes split it up.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

See, my problem with the morning one was, like, I feel like I just woke up, and then I have to, like, close my eyes for 20 minutes. And, like, I was like, I. My mind would already start racing about what I had to do in the day. I guess this is probably why I need meditation so that.

[Heather Graham]

Well, for me, I'm like, I don't want to wake up. I'm still tired. I'm gonna meditate.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Sofia Vergara was doing it. See, she. She. She signed up for TM Cute. And it wasn't working for. I don't think she's. I don't think she's wired for it, but she told me that they gave her the wrong mantra. She's like, they gave. They gave me the wrong word to say. It does not work for me. I was like, I don't think that's how it works. I think, like, you just need to go with it.

[Heather Graham]

Oh, my God. That is so.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It does not work for me. They gave me the wrong one. They messed it up.

[Heather Graham]

Oh, my God. I love your impersonation. I can, like, picture her.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, my God.

[Restaurant Server]

So funny.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Who are the people that you're most connected to in your life? I mean, are they your friends? Is it someone you're dating? I mean, I know that you're. Are you and your sister close?

[Heather Graham]

I'm not close with my family. Yeah. I'm estranged from my family. So I've sort of. That's why. I mean, I made this movie called Chosen Family, and I feel like my friends are my family, you know? So I am very lucky. I have amazing friends. Like, my friends are just mind blowing, like, incredible. And I do have a boyfriend. And. Yeah, I have a lot of really good friends. That's great. Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Am I one now?

[Heather Graham]

You can be. Yeah, No, I would love to. I mean, I would love for you to, like, cook for me and I totally. Come over to my house for dinner.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Heather Graham]

Are you gonna be in New York or what's your plan? You're here doing the play.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm doing a play. I'm here until mid May.

[Heather Graham]

Okay. I'm sad I missed this play where you were like the reservations guy at a restaurant, because I feel like that sounds hilarious.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It was very funny.

[Heather Graham]

Was that incredible?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes. And exhausting.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So much so that after I was done, I was like, I don't think I'll ever do another one man show again. And then the show I'm doing right now is a one man show.

[Heather Graham]

Oh, my God, that is so cool. But I mean, you're so, like, successful. Like, couldn't you just write your own TV show and just do, do.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I wish it was that easy.

[Heather Graham]

I know, I know, I know.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You write, though.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah, yeah. But you could write your own TV show character for yourself.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And like, I have. Yeah, I have ideas. I definitely have ideas. But you did direct, right?

[Heather Graham]

I did direct. I directed.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Did you direct.

[Heather Graham]

I directed chosen movies. I directed Chosen Family. I directed a movie called Half Magic, and I wrote them and it was fun. It was a labor of love. I mean, we did not have a lot of money in the budget, but it does kind of bite you. You're like, I want to do that again. I definitely want to do it again. It's Kind of like being a drug addict. You're like, oh, my God, it's so hard. It's so painful. But I want to do it again, you know? Like, it's so awesome.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, it's. It's something I'm.

[Heather Graham]

I bet you'd be a really good director.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, I think I would, too, actually.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Don't you ever feel like, though, those days where you show up on set and you're like, it's like a really complicated thing. Scene, and you're like, oh, at least I don't have to direct it. Like, I could just, like, be told where to go.

[Heather Graham]

Oh, my God, it's so true. Being the director, it's so much more stressful because, you know, all the stress of, like, everyone's input and who gets cast and, like, how you get the money and then you know, how you're gonna edit it, and every moment of the way it's depending. Maybe you're in a great situation with great financiers and you don't have stress. I don't know. But no, if you show up as an actor, like, here's my job. And they always treat actors a little bit like little kids. Like, you're so great.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You're great.

[Heather Graham]

Okay. And then the director's more, like, gets the. Not that. Not that treatment.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Heather Graham]

You know? Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Did you feel like directing, like, pulled the curtain back for you a little? Like. A little bit. And, like, in terms of, like, what happens on the. Like, I mean, having been on the other side of the camera for so long.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah. I mean, it's like. It's really sad when you find out how people are cast, you know?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I know.

[Heather Graham]

It's really. It's not like, oh, my God, this person is just the best person, or they're right for the role or. No, it's not.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's usually, like, how much money.

[Heather Graham]

Someone with money decides that they're working worth something. And sometimes it's super random. They're like, oh, that person's worth nothing. Oh, that. You know, it's like some random person is deciding who's worth something.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Heather Graham]

Or they put you in a computer and the numbers come up with, like, a certain thing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I have heard that. I've also heard, and this hasn't. I haven't experienced this on any of the projects that I've been trying to get started. But, like, where, like, things like Instagram followers are in the conversation.

[Heather Graham]

I mean, that's starting to happen, that sometimes people are getting cast because they have Instagram followers and they're not even actors and they don't even know really how to act. And it's just like, look at all these millions of followers and they're just casting them.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's wild.

[Heather Graham]

Isn't that wild?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's really wild.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah,

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

there's. And she might be incredibly talented. I have not seen her and I actually think she is an actress and a musical theater actress. But she. The woman who's on Chicago right now on Broadway.

[Heather Graham]

She is an influencer.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, she was Secret Lies of Mormon Wives. She's a reality show. And I do think she was. And I don't want to discount her tonics. I think she's actually like a legitimate, like, yeah, like, performer. She's a dancer. But so Chicago's been running on Broadway for like 3,000 years.

[Heather Graham]

Oh, I know, I know.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

They have with her in the. In the show.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's broken box office.

[Heather Graham]

Are you kidding?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

All time. For the entire time. It's never made more money.

[Heather Graham]

Why?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Because.

[Heather Graham]

Because she has a great social media following. Wow.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And again, like, I'm not discounting her talent at all. But what it does scare me.

[Heather Graham]

Yeah. Is that it's free marketing. It's like this person. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But it scares me that like, that's like. It's gonna require like that type of person now to like.

[Heather Graham]

I know it's hard cuz, like, yeah. Cuz we came up like, oh, just be really good at your job. Be a really good actor. Now it's like, oh, you need like to do your social media. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right, right.

[Heather Graham]

And I do feel like. I don't know if you feel this way, but kind of like taking a bunch of pictures of myself sometimes I'm just like, this seems. It's funny. Right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you so much for doing this. No, thank you.

[Heather Graham]

No, I'm a fan. I'm grateful to be. To hang out with you and go to this awesome restaurant.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at LA Pavilion in midtown Manhattan. Next week on Dinners on Me, you know him from roles like Blaine Anderson on Glee and from his Emmy winning and Golden Globe award winning turn as Andrew Cunanan in the assassination of Gianni Versace. It's Darren Criss. We'll get into his journey from theater kid to award winning performer. He's a Tony Award winner for maybe Happy ending on Broadway and how he reflects on a career that just keeps hitting new highs. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners on Me. Plus, as a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad free. Just click Try free at the top of the Dinners on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinners on Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Fergus. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans Dale, she composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tameka Balance Kolasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week. Liberty Mutual customizes your car and home insurance. And now we're customizing this rush hour ad to keep you calm, which could help your driving. And science says therapy is great for a healthy mindset. So enjoy this 14 second session on us. I think you've done everything right and absolutely nothing wrong. In fact, anything that hasn't gone your way could probably be blamed on your father not being emotionally available because his father wasn't emotionally available, and so on. And now that you're calm and healing, you're probably driving better too.

[Heather Graham]

Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty.