Lisa Rinna – on hustling, housewives, and Harry Hamlin

Summary

Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson
Guest: Lisa Rinna
Episode Theme: Hustling, Housewives, and Harry Hamlin
Date: February 24, 2026
Location: Coral Tree Café, Brentwood, CA

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Overview

In this engaging episode, host Jesse Tyler Ferguson sits down with Lisa Rinna—actress, reality TV icon, and author—for a candid meal and conversation at the LA institution, Coral Tree Café. Together, they dive into Lisa’s journey through reality television, her memoir, the reality of fame, her family life, professional resilience, and thoughts on aging in Hollywood. The episode is filled with warmth, genuine vulnerability, and plenty of laughter, offering listeners a revealing look into Lisa’s world beyond the camera.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Lisa on ‘The Traitors’ and Reality TV (05:01–22:00)

• Decision to Join ‘The Traitors’
  • Lisa was initially hesitant to return to reality TV but was persuaded by a close family friend (05:05–05:47):
    “I didn’t want to do any reality…I was done for now…My neighbor down the street…convinced me to do it.” — Lisa Rinna (05:08–05:47)
  • The role was a game-changer, giving her renewed visibility and thrilling experiences.
• Being a ‘Traitor’
  • Lisa admits she wanted to be a traitor for the camera time: “If I’m gonna do it, you want all the camera time. Otherwise, why?” — Lisa Rinna (06:12)
  • Discusses the exhaustion and anxiety of filming, lack of sleep, and getting “backed into a corner” by fellow player Colton (06:24–07:25).
  • Reveals how the game’s turning point was being accused on camera, a rare twist in Traitors’ history (07:02–07:20).
• Game Dynamics vs. Housewives
  • Highlights differences:
    • ‘The Traitors’ is producer-free—"they really let that game play out" (17:21–17:46).
    • ‘Housewives’ is the opposite: “The producers produce you and they talk to you” (17:28–17:39).
    • Being a “hostess” and forming alliances was Lisa’s main strategy (19:22).
    • Humorous take on the grueling labor: “If you want to be a traitor, honey, you are…literally three hours more a day…into the middle of the night” (23:40–23:48).

The Weight of ‘The Real Housewives’ (09:43–14:55; 26:12–32:07)

• Vulnerability and Grief
  • Lisa describes filming ‘Housewives’ soon after her mother’s death:
    “In hindsight, it would have been better if I had said…let me take this time. But I’m a worker bee…So would have been better if I didn’t do the show in that state of mind.” — Lisa Rinna (10:18–11:06)
• Changing Dynamics in Reality TV
  • Noted increasing toxicity from the fan base and social media:
    “…the response to us changed. And that made it really difficult—really difficult. Which you’re just like, wait, it’s a TV show.” — Lisa Rinna (12:06–12:47)
  • Addresses trauma-bonded friendships formed through Housewives (32:18–32:29).
• Making the Most of Fame
  • Acknowledges the visibility boost Housewives gave her: “That show…catapulted you. I knew at the time in my career, I needed that real estate” (27:01–27:08).
  • Lisa refers to business opportunities that stemmed from leveraging her Housewives fame (see “Hustle”).

Lisa Rinna’s Memoir & Personal Growth (10:14–11:06; 26:12–27:08; 43:01–47:20)

• Cathartic Experience
  • Writing the memoir was deeply cathartic:
    “It was very cathartic for me…to just tell my side of the story, to tell what was going on with me and how I felt about it.” — Lisa Rinna (10:18)
  • Lisa was nervous about the vulnerability in her book:
    “Are you nervous for people to read some of it? Yeah, because it’s so vulnerable…I don’t like to be vulnerable. Like, who does?” — Lisa Rinna (43:04–43:15)
• Revealing Family Struggles: PANDAS
  • Lisa opens up about her daughter’s struggle with PANDAS (Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal Infections), a first for her publicly (43:34–44:15).
  • Describes the intense family toll, parenting strategies, and the challenge of focusing energy on the child in most need (44:29–45:41).
• Importance of Humanity
  • Lisa highlights the significance of showing humanity, marital reality, and the struggles of raising a family—especially in Hollywood (46:44–47:20).

Hustling, Resilience, and Reinvention (29:24–36:38)

• The ‘Rinna Hustle’
  • Jesse details Lisa’s relentless work ethic through a list of her projects in a single year: from infomercials to QVC, to the famous ‘Depends’ ad (29:24–30:15).
  • Lisa’s take:
    “We have done some things that are truly remarkable being actors…We got two babies we’re raising. Like, get to work.” — Lisa Rinna (30:30–30:49)
• Life After 60: The “Rinna-sance”
  • Lisa discusses her recent modeling moments—including walking Paris Fashion Week at age 62:
    “It’s truly…there’s an expiration date on what people consider that career—take be Hollywood. Yeah. Well, when I turned 40, that’s when we started the stores, because I thought my career was over…But now look at it 22 years later and go, wow, I would never have seen this moment then.” — Lisa Rinna (36:11–36:38)
• On Aging and Inspiring
  • Lisa finds inspiration in the “renaissances” of women over 50 like Pam Anderson, Demi Moore, Nicole Kidman, stressing it’s vital for her daughters:
    “It’s really important for my daughters to see that you’re not washed up when you turn 60…you can still be a viable female in this world.” — Lisa Rinna (35:00–35:46)

Fashion, ‘Housewives’ Costs, and Showbiz Realities (36:38–39:46)

• Fashion Realities
  • Peels back the curtain on Housewives fashion: “You have to do your own hair, makeup, and you have to dress yourself…that’s where all my money went” (37:25–38:00).
• Value of Marital Partnership
  • Lisa and Jesse reflect on the hard work and ongoing effort required for a long, happy marriage:
    “Marriage, a good marriage, is a lot of work…As long as you have a mutual respect for one another…I think is really the key.” — Lisa Rinna (48:20–48:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If I’m gonna do it, you want all the camera time. Otherwise, why?” — Lisa Rinna (06:12)
• On Housewives’ production style: “The producers produce you and they talk to you. They plant seeds. They plant storylines. These producers [on Traitors] stay back and the game plays out, and it’s quite brilliant.” — Lisa Rinna (17:28–17:47)
• On deciding to share her daughter's struggle:
  “I’m glad that I get to, because I also know families that are suffering…Anytime I can get out what really is going on, I felt very good about saying.” — Lisa Rinna (44:15)
• “You can dance. You can be silly. You can be weird. You can be beautiful. You can be everything.” — Lisa Rinna on being a woman in her 60s (35:39–35:46)
• “Marriage, a good marriage, is a lot of work…As long as you have a mutual respect for one another, I think is really the key.” — Lisa Rinna (48:20–48:23)

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Memorable Moments by Timestamp

• 05:05–05:47 — Lisa explains her process of being convinced to join ‘The Traitors.’
• 09:28–10:18 — “It’s not Housewives for me.” – Lisa on the difference in personal impact between ‘The Traitors’ and ‘Housewives.’
• 10:14–11:06 — Lisa discusses the difficult decision not to take time off after her mother’s death.
• 12:06–12:47 — “The response to us changed…” Lisa on the rise of toxic Housewives fandom.
• 19:22–19:33 — Lisa articulated her “hostess” strategy in ‘The Traitors.’
• 27:01–27:08 — Lisa and Jesse discuss the unique career boost from ‘Housewives.’
• 35:00–35:46 — Lisa gets passionate about positivity for women over 60.
• 36:38–37:24 — Discussion of hidden costs and realities of dressing for Housewives.
• 43:04–43:15 — Lisa admits fear over her new book’s vulnerability.
• 44:29–45:41 — Honest discussion of the emotional toll of parenting through a child’s illness.
• 48:13–48:23 — Lisa offers advice on the work needed for a strong marriage.

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Episode’s Tone & Takeaways

Lisa Rinna’s trademark candor and self-deprecating humor are ever-present. The conversation is rich in vulnerability, hustle, and hard-won wisdom—a true mix of sunny LA optimism and showbiz grit. Both Lisa and Jesse deftly intertwine personal stories with insights about Hollywood, reality TV, aging gracefully, and the ongoing work required to nurture family and self.

Listeners will walk away with:

• A new understanding of the real costs (emotional, financial, and professional) behind reality TV stardom.
• A rare look at the emotional labor and resilience behind Lisa’s public persona.
• Honest advice about hustle, parenthood, aging, and partnership in Hollywood and beyond.

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Lisa Rinna’s memoir releases February 24th, offering a deeper look at the stories and vulnerabilities shared in this episode.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I was just like, just don't look like Ramona Singer on the red, you know, on the Runway, my girl said, mom, whatever you do, don't look like Ramona. So I have that in my mind, right? Don't look like, look like Ramona. Don't have googly eyes.

[A]

This is dinner's on me. And I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. So today we're at the Coral Tree Cafe in Brentwood, California. Coral Tree is a bit of an LA institution. It's been here forever. It's known for its all day breakfast and paninis and salads, great coffee. So I thought this would be a great place to meet up with Lisa Rinna and talk all things housewives and traders. And also her new memoir that she just wrote that I got an advance copy of. I have so many questions for her, and I wanted to curl up in a corner with her, have a cup of coffee, maybe a cup of hot tea, because I want to get the tea and the hot goss. All right, let's get to the conversation. First of all. Oh, we have so many things to talk about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you were asked to do the Traitors, was it like an immediate yes? How you already watched it?

[B]

Oh, I hadn't watched it yet.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And I said, well, let me watch it and see because I didn't want to do any reality. I was like, I'm not doing any more reality. So was done for now. So I was like, no, it doesn't really sound interesting to me. And then I started to watch it with Harry. We started to watch it and I thought, wow, this is really good. But I rather watch it than do it. Yeah, right. People kept talking, talking, and then my neighbor down the street who grew up with my daughters little 27 year old called me and said, you got to do this show and I'm going to tell you why. And I said, well, let me come down, I'll have a glass of wine and we'll chit chat. You tell me why. And she convinced me to do it.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah. And my team was so happy because they were like, oh, this is just a game changer. It's going to be so great for you. And I was like, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. And then it turned out to be, turned out to be a good thing.

[A]

It's a pretty great.

[B]

Turned out to be great for me.

[A]

Were you surprised that you were a trader or did you expect it?

[B]

Yes, I was surprised, but I also kind of expected it. It could have gone either way. I wanted to be a trader.

[A]

You did?

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I'm gonna do it, you want all the camera time. Otherwise why. Sure, why not? You know, I mean, that's what I

[A]

talked about with Colton. I was like, you have another like three hours of a work day because you have to do the whole turret so hard. Yeah.

[B]

I mean I was suffering like you can't believe because you're not, you're not sleeping and I'm, I have to, I have to sleep and you're not sleeping.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you know, by the time you get to where I was, episode seven, I was so ready to go home, to be honest with you. Oh, my God. I was just like, I didn't fight that hard because I was like, I can't save myself at this point.

[A]

Right? No, you really got backed into a corner.

[B]

I couldn't. Can I just.

[A]

So, right, okay. So, yeah. One of the only times I think probably the only time this has happened was someone got murdered in front of everyone and someone got last words. He got last words.

[B]

That's never happened.

[A]

That's never happened. And he said, it's Lisa. It's Lisa.

[B]

I knew it right then there. I was like, no matter what I say, it doesn't matter because that's not how I Killed him, by the way.

[A]

Right, right, right. You killed him because he touched your amulet. He says you killed him by kissing him.

[B]

But I was fucked. The minute he was screaming my name.

[A]

You're like, I'm done.

[B]

I was like, this is really great television, but I'm done. I'm fucked. I can't get out of this. I knew that.

[A]

And Colton was on to you very early on.

[B]

Yes, he was.

[A]

Which, you know he was, right?

[B]

He was.

[A]

And obviously you felt a different way in the moment, and you were like this snake in the grass. We got to get rid of him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yet he outlasted you.

[B]

Barely.

[A]

Barely. I died out. Hi.

[B]

You guys have the breakfast?

[A]

Oh, perfect.

[B]

So we actually order and eat.

[A]

We do.

[B]

Okay. Okay, great.

[A]

If you want to just let me

[B]

know what you want to drink. I'll get that started. I would have an iced tea with some stevia. Iced tea with some stevia.

[A]

I'm do iced tea without stevia. And do you want to take a minute to figure out what you want to eat or do you know a quick one?

[B]

Let's see. Something easy to eat.

[A]

No, I want it complicated.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Prawns. I want to watch you eat prawns.

[B]

I'm gonna have a steak salad. Steak salad. Well done steak or medium? Well done steak. No, pink.

[A]

Okay. There you go. And I'm gonna have the curry chicken salad. Okay. Thank you. I'm excited. But in the moment, you were pretty. You were annoyed that he was.

[B]

I was pissed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh. You know, he was a great nemesis for me. And I've told him that to his face. I've said that, you want that. You need that. Otherwise, what are we doing? It's just not interesting. So I kept saying to him, you know what? I know that it's awkward with us right now, but I gotta tell you, you were a great nemesis for me.

[A]

Great. Well, I just saw him for his birthday a few, like, a week ago, and he only speaks the highest of you. He loves you.

[B]

And so, yeah, there's no hard feelings there. You know, There really is. Not for me. It's a game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't take it personally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I never did. So, yes, I can be mad at Rob and, like, play the game of I'm so mad at you, and I spanked him. But it's a game. Like, it's not Housewives for me.

[A]

Right where I got personal, that was

[B]

personal, and that was really challenging. So when Colton came at me like, you're supposed to be a housewife and you're not Acting like a housewife. I was like, excuse me, hold on a second, we're gonna have a chat.

[A]

I mean, that was the fieriest you got on the show.

[B]

It was.

[A]

And you know, I, I also just read your book, which. Thank you for. Or someone sent this to me. Fantastic. I love it.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

But you know, you talk about. It's a quick read, but so yeah, we know each other and so having read your book and even just from the private conversations we've had, I know how hard Housewives was for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I didn't know some of the stuff that you were going through at the time, at your hardest moments, which was. So I hope it felt very,

[B]

I

[A]

hope it felt very cleansing to get a lot of that stuff out in, in the open.

[B]

It was very cathartic for me to write this book. Book and to, to just tell my side of the story, to tell what was going on with me and how I felt about it. Cuz there was so much speculation at that time and imagine then grieving your, your mother's death in public. Like the whole thing was just a really bad perfect storm. You know, it was just really unfortunate. In hindsight, it would have been better if I had said, guys, listen, I'm going to take this season off.

[A]

I'm just going to, after your mother

[B]

passed, take a break because, you know, I went back to work three days later. Yeah, that's. You're in shock. You don't know what you're doing. And in hindsight, if I just said, you know what, let me take this time, if I can come back, great. If not, I'll come back next season. But I'm a worker bee, you know, I don't think like that. I'm like, I have a contract, I

[A]

gotta go to work. Right.

[B]

So would have been better if I didn't do the show in that state of mind.

[A]

Do you think they would have responded?

[B]

No, not kindly. They would have said, no, you have a contractor, we'll sue you if you don't come to work.

[A]

Right, right, right. Well, they might have.

[B]

No, they, they needed me. I also knew that they needed me on the show at this point. So it was not going to be like, oh, sure, sweetie, go, go, take your time.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

It was hard. That was difficult.

[A]

And you were a consumer of the Housewives before. You never, before you watch.

[B]

I never watched it. I mean, as aware of it, but.

[A]

Well, we all are. Yeah.

[B]

You know, this was before really social media and everything. When I got on the show, it was just Starting. So different time. Totally different time. And during those first, say, five years on the show, it was manageable because the zeitgeist and the fan base hadn't become so angry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, that's what changed is the response to us changed. And that made it really difficult. Really difficult. Which you're just like, wait, it's a TV show, and we're playing a game. But, you know, luckily, I'm on the good side of this. Usually I'm on the bad side, but I have great empathy for the people that are on the bad side of it because I've been through it. And that's why I came out about Colton, because I didn't want him to necessarily go through what I went through or had or for me to have anything to do with it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, so I thought it was important to say, we're fine. We're good. We're okay. So it's a game, and people are just crazed about this show. Like, I haven't really been out in the world that much, but I am right now, and people just want to talk to me about it. Yeah, they just, like, I was just getting something at creation. They were just like, I feel this, and I want to know about this. And it's just so funny to me.

[A]

Well, it's fun to also peel the curtain behind that show because, you know, I mean, you're in this castle in Scotland. Like, we want to know everything about that. Does it feel like, how does it feel being on another reality show? Now that's so zeitgeisty. Having done, you know, the part of the Housewives franchise. And, I mean, and in this way, in this version, you are playing a role. Literally, they're saying you're the role of a traitor.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

And kind of also getting to act out and kill people, Misbehave and kill people.

[B]

I loved it, every second of it. I mean, you see, when I kill Caroline, when we kill Caroline Stanbury, I put my soap opera hat on. Like, that was just delicious. I put that hat on, and I was just like. It was so fun.

[A]

Yeah. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Lisa and I talk more about her time on the Traders. Okay. Be right back. You know that moment in the middle of the night when you hear noise and your brain immediately goes, what was that? And you're lying there thinking, okay, okay, it's probably a squirrel. Yeah. No, it's. It's definitely a squirrel. Oh, God, please let it be a squirrel. And Most of the time it is. It's. It's just a squirrel. But we all have those heart racing, middle of the night, what is that noise? Moments. That's why I love ADT. They're there 24 7. Keeping watch with professional monitoring and technology that helps get first responders to you faster when every second counts. And with the ADT plus app, I can check in on my house anytime, whether I'm on the road, at work or just lying in bed convincing myself that, yes, it really was just a squirrel. ADT makes sure your home is your haven. Not another thing to stress about when every second counts. Count on ADT. Visit ADT.com to learn more. So good, so good, so good.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

And we're back with more dinners on me.

[B]

I loved being a trader.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't. I wasn't a very good trader, but

[A]

I, I think you were until you got back into a corner.

[B]

I wasn't great. I was entertaining, but I, I wasn't strategic. I think, like Rob, Rob. Rob and Candace are very, very much more game players, I think, than I was. But I think it was a fun mix.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of all of us. I loved us all as traitors. And I thought that's why it was so sad, because it was like he broke up the family.

[A]

Oh, I know, I know. I mean, I sort of another episode in other seasons of the Traitors that has happened where the traitors turn on each other and it happens every season. It makes it exciting.

[B]

It does. And, you know, you can kind of tell, like we all lasted seven episodes in all the other seasons. Traders have already gone by that point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I also think that production is like, okay, you know what? It's also time for maybe a recruitment or just to mix it up. And, you know, that's part of the game.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They don't produce you at all. They really let that game play out,

[A]

which is the opposite with Housewives.

[B]

The complete opposite.

[A]

I understand.

[B]

I was so shocked by it because in reality, that's what I'm used to. The producers produce you and they talk to you.

[A]

They plant seeds. They plant stories and storylines. Yeah.

[B]

These producers stay back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the game plays out, and it's quite brilliant.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love that part of it.

[A]

Well, you all have a common goal, too. It's like you're working toward the same thing.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

You know, you're not on your own little island trying to spin whatever story is happening on your own little island. You're working together as a group to create this thing together. And it feels like very much like an ensemble piece whether or not you are playing against one another.

[B]

Would you ever do it?

[A]

I would. I told Colton I would. I think I would. Although I don't. I don't know. This is what I'm observing. I find that people who are actors. Actors or funny people don't do great well.

[B]

And why do you think that is?

[A]

I think that it's hard to crack through, and I think people don't trust it. They think you're acting. And I think, you know, people use humor as a. As a shield. And I think that, you know, when people are being funny, like Ron, who's a very funny person. Very funny, you know, he didn't fare well.

[B]

Yeah. Yes. It translated differently, I think, for Ron. I got along great with Ron. We had an Oregon connection. So he was. He was brought up in Salem and I was brought up in Medford, so we instantly had that. And so I think that that was helpful for us because Ron is very much a loner. And so I think that being a loner in that game doesn't serve you because you have to. To really figure out alliances and you really have to be like. I knew going in my job was to be like a hostess and get to know everybody and get everybody to really kind of like you. That was really kind of the only thing I thought was important.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

You really had to be a hostess and chat with everybody.

[A]

Yeah. You did a really good job. And I mean, you're also, you know, people sometimes forget because you've been doing reality TV for so long. You're a really good actress.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And so, you know, and I noticed that specifically in the breakfast scenes where, you know, you know, who's going to walk in the door. And you were doing a great job.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I think you really played that role well.

[B]

I think so too. I thought I did everything well until I didn't. You know, it's so funny because, you know, everybody's like a backseat driver and they say, well, if you'd only done this, if you'd only done that. And you're like, God, if I had even thought of that, it didn't even cross my mind.

[A]

I know when you're in the moment, your mind is in another place. Are you watching the traitors? Okay, so you are watching it in time and seeing like, oh, well.

[B]

Cause we hadn't seen it. So you do it and then now you're watching it. So you see the editing. Because there is a lot of editing. We spend hours and hours and hours in hours filming that doesn't end up

[A]

probably whole storylines and whole, like, relationships

[B]

that don't get well, as I think Kristen has come out and said that her whole relationship with Mark is, like, not non existent. And, you know, you don't even see that in the castle while you're working. You only see what you see. So I didn't even know they had a close relationship. I didn't know Rob was going and pushing my name. But you don't know that if you're not in that room.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So there's a lot. There was a lot of good poker face going on as I was leaving. But, you know, if you're an intuitive person, you sense it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, I knew. Like, I knew Rob was not looking at me. You can always tell by body language in the eyes. And I kept making sure that I looked everyone straight in the eye. That's what I made sure of. Because as a trader, you might not. You might be more careful. I looked everyone straight in the eye. Like, I sat next to Colton the whole time. And, you know, he's after me the whole time. And every time I look at him, I would look him right in those baby blues and I was like, I ain't moving here. I'm gonna just go like that. So there's a lot of things I did do that I think worked. And then other things, you're just like, wow, they didn't even really show something that could have helped you. And you're just like, nothing you can do about it because it's gone right well.

[A]

And there's only so much time for the show to, you know.

[B]

And there's 20 some odd people.

[A]

Exactly. A lot of. A lot of coverage. Yeah, you. I mean, you don't strike me. You've never struck me as someone who's, like, intimidated by anyone, but was there someone that you're, like, a little intimidated by when you're in this sort of game?

[B]

You know who I was intimidated by the first night you get there? Natalie from Survivor.

[A]

Oh, yeah. No, she seems like she's very intimidating.

[B]

When I first saw her, like, I kind of picked up a vibe, and I thought, oh, shit, she scares me. And then it turns out I love her. She's one of my favorite people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But her energy I clocked because she

[A]

was so, like, well, she was a gamer.

[B]

She's a gamer. I didn't know her. I don't know the gamers and her. She was just like. I couldn't read her. You know, I know a lot of the other people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or of them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just couldn't read her. So it was more murky for me. Yeah. She's the only one. I also. I gravitated toward Rob the Snake charmer

[A]

because we all gravitated toward Rob the Snake. He charmed all of us.

[B]

But in the moment, I didn't know who he was, and I saw him being very aloof and sitting off to the side while everybody else was kiking and having a great time. And my husband has similar energy, so I thought, I'm gonna go talk to him. So I went over and just started asking him questions and kind of just getting to know him in a way. So I felt super comfortable with him because I'd had that moment with him the first night, and we had somewhat of a connection because I just had a conversation with him. I mean, sometimes it's just that much. You have five minutes with somebody and you go, all right. And other times, I don't talk to many of the people.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

It's exhausting, really. A lot. And then when you're a trader, it's like, forget it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You are never. You're never not working.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really? So careful what you wish for.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If you want to be a trader, honey, you are. I mean, literally three hours more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Into the middle of the night.

[A]

Yeah. That's what Colton was saying. Yeah.

[B]

Brutal.

[A]

Yeah. When I started this podcast, I ran into you at the Sportsman's Lodge. Do you remember this? We were both getting vitamin shots at NextHelp. NextHelp, yeah.

[B]

I still go get my vitamin shots there.

[A]

I do, too.

[B]

I added glutathione, so I do Super V and glutathione. That's my new.

[A]

That's your cocktail.

[B]

That's my new cocktail.

[A]

Okay. Got it, got it, got it. Have you ever done the hyperbaric oxygen chamber?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I like that red light bed.

[A]

The red light bed. Yep. It's all good.

[B]

I like it there.

[A]

I do the cryotherapy as well, due to cryotherapy.

[B]

Cryotherapy, yeah. Hate it. Personally, I hate it. Probably good for me, but I hate it.

[A]

Yeah, I like it. But I ran into you at the Sportsman's Lodge and I think we had just recorded this, like the first episode of this.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

And you were like. You were like, don't ask me to be on it. I cannot. I hadn't asked you at that point, but you're like, don't ask me to be on it. I can't do podcasts. I always get myself to travel podcasts.

[B]

So I didn't do podcasts for five years while I was on Housewives because I made a pact with myself. Every time I did a podcast, I got myself in that much more hot water. So I said, I'm not doing it anymore. And I took five years off. This is the first time back. Yeah, truly. Cuz I was like, not worth it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So we'll see.

[A]

I feel like at that point you had already left the show, though, when I saw you. You must have. Okay, okay. And when I saw you most recently, we were both leaving Terry. I was coming and you were leaving Terry Hatcher.

[B]

Terry's Christmas party, which is such a great party.

[A]

Oh my God, so great.

[B]

Such a great party.

[A]

There's a great video of you and Kathy Griffin dancing with Terry. Terry Hatcher dancing. Yeah.

[B]

Did it right out the gate. They were like, lisa, we need to do a dance video. I was like, okay, pick us up.

[A]

Also, Ron Futchkis was at that party.

[B]

He was.

[A]

Did you talk to him?

[B]

Yeah, of course. I've run into Ron a few. Few times outside the Trader World.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Which is fun. And then we just were part of this First Amendment group with Jane Fonda.

[A]

Yes, I watched that.

[B]

And they just had us do that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, Ron and I. I've seen Ron at a couple of things.

[A]

Yeah, he's great.

[B]

He's even met Harry.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Somewhere down the line.

[A]

Thank you. But when I. I saw you at leaving Teri Hatcher's, you were like, I've written a book, I've got it all out of my system and I'm gonna come and do the podcast.

[B]

And here I am.

[A]

Now, I know this is not your first book you've written, but it seems like probably your most personal.

[B]

Well, it's more like a memoir. I don't really call it a memoir, but they do because it's like bullet points in my life. It's not my whole life, but it's much more vulnerable and revealing than any book I've ever done. And I knew that if I was going to do another book, I had to go there. Otherwise, why write the book?

[A]

Especially after Housewives, you know, people. Joanna, my producer right here is such a massive housewife fan.

[B]

Are you Joanna?

[A]

Oh, my God. She devoured your book. Like, Joanna, this book is for you.

[B]

Did you like it? Good.

[A]

But, you know, yeah. I mean, after you. You've left this. This franchise that so many people know you from. I mean, you already a household name, but I feel like so many new people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your fame was never at the level.

[B]

And Harry talks about that. He's like, you were never more famous than when you were. That show, like, catapulted you. It did.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

That's the great thing about that show. You know, I knew that at the time in my career, I needed that real estate. I mean, that's why I did it, because I knew it was really high visibility and could help with business.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I needed to win.

[A]

Now, let's take a quick break, but don't go away. When we return, Lisa talks about getting her start on the 80s sitcom Hogan's Family with Jason Bateman. And we get into her Rena Sance at 62. Okay, be right back.

[B]

Quick interruption worth hearing.

[A]

If you love sports, TikTok is for you. Game highlights, expert breakdowns and fan reactions. Just the moments that matter. Download TikTok now.

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[A]

Predator Badlands now streaming on Hulu and

[B]

Hulu on Disney Plus. Rated PG13.

[A]

Go further with the American Express Business Gold Card. Earn 3 times Membership Rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels when you book through amextravel.com whether your destination is a business conference or a client meeting. Your purchases will help you earn more points for future trips. Experience more on your travels with AMEX Business Gold terms apply. Learn [e-mail] Business Gold. Amex Business Gold Card built for business by American Express. And we're back with more dinners on me. What I'VE gathered from your book that I didn't necessarily know. I mean, I assumed you were a hustler, but you really were a hustler, and you continue to be. I mean, we're all hustlers in this industry, but, like, I mean, I wrote this down because I was like, let me go through this, like, one year. Like, this is, like, what, in 2012? You were hustling.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm gonna remind you what you're doing in 2012. What was I doing an infomercial for? So the dates might be a little bit.

[B]

All right, I won't hold you to it.

[A]

An infomercial for Flex Belt.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

A Taco Bell commercial. The Depends. Depends spokesperson, which I. I remember that so well.

[B]

It depends on commercial, which just freaked everybody out.

[A]

It was so good.

[B]

I was just talking about with Howie Mandel on his podcast.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's sort of iconic. It was you on the red carpet,

[B]

and I have them on in my air v. Leer. Tight, tight dress with my damn diaper on. It's true.

[A]

So good. Well, I mean, those days are long. Those days are long on the red carpet, too. You. I could use Depends. You also had a collection at qvc, and you were. Can't read this. Oh, you wrote your first book. Are you. Not your first book, but my second. Big, fun, sexy sex book.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, I mean, that was, like, all one year. And, you know, I. Yeah. You're a hustler.

[B]

I am.

[A]

I didn't realize that you had these two stores that you were.

[B]

10 years.

[A]

10 years.

[B]

We were in retail for 10 years.

[A]

It's incredible.

[B]

I know it really. You know, we have done some things that are truly remarkable being actors.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We're two actors that were like, we better do something here, because neither one of us had a hit show. And you got to figure it out. We got two babies we're raising, like, get to work. And that's really where it comes from.

[A]

Well, what was interesting is when you're talking. You're trying to talk Harry into, you know, opening up his mind to you, maybe you being in part of the Housewives.

[B]

And he was like, no.

[A]

And then you. You kind of, like, gave him the Bethany Frankel receipts.

[B]

I did.

[A]

You're like, look at what this woman has done. And he said, okay, well, let's rethink her.

[B]

The Tequila Lady.

[A]

Now, we don't use her name. Are you friendly with her now?

[B]

We don't use her name.

[A]

You don't use her name.

[B]

We call her the Tequila Lady.

[A]

You know, that moment for Harry of like realizing that this is. This could be something of a franchise for you and, you know, you could parlay this into other things.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's. I don't know if it's it. And I think you did. You did a really good job with that while you were on the show.

[B]

I think so too.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was great until it wasn't. I mean, that's like a lot of things. You know, you're on a show for eight years. Like how long was Modern Family 11? Oh, how.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I mean, that's just dreamy Beyond. Right. I mean, that's a big part of your life. And so leaving it, you know, you have a lot of emotions about it, whether you want to leave or not.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's something you did for eight years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's a long time.

[A]

It's a really long time.

[B]

Yeah. So it was good until it wasn't. And I'm grateful for it because I think everything that you do in life leads you further on your path.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, if I can get all googly about it, you know what I mean? It's just part of this, part of my story.

[A]

Yeah. And it sounds like you've maintained some relationships that are very meaningful.

[B]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I made some really good trauma bonded moments with friends. We were all trauma bonded. I mean, truly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I still have those girls as friends. Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is nice.

[A]

Yeah. What did your daughters think of, first of all? What do they think of your time on the Housewives and also on the Traders?

[B]

Well, Housewives, you know, they were so young. You know, they were teenagers at the time and they really just don't remember that much of it, I think. But they just didn't want to film. I remember that. And I would have to bribe them to film. Of course. They would want the kids to be like, okay, I'll buy you this. You just come film for like 15, 20 minutes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So they don't really talk about that, but they are loving Traders. They're loving this. They love the show. I got a text from Amelia because everyone's watching at different times. I get this text. It just says Rob with a bunch of exclamation marks. So I was like, okay. She just watched the episode. So it's cute. You know, everybody watches it. Harry had watched it before. I was in Paris walking a show, which was so cool. The night I got banished. So I hadn't seen it because it was on at like 4 in the morning, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wake up in the morning I was like, watch it. And then please text me and just give me an idea of, like, will I be happy? Was it horrible? Whatever. And I got a really great text message from Harry, and I was like, okay, I'm good.

[A]

I'm fine. That. It was good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I thought you came off great. It was fun. It was fun to watch you get banned. Great. It was fun to get. You. Watch you get backed into a corner.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And fight. You were a rat chewing its way out from, like, you know, a corner. And it was.

[B]

And I never got out.

[A]

Really satisfying.

[B]

I could never get out.

[A]

I mean. But that also must have felt really cool, Lisa, to be like, you couldn't watch that episode because you were on a Runway in Paris. And I mean, you know, you. You talk a little bit in the book about Pam Anderson and Demi Moore and, like, these people who are over 50, these women over 50 who are having such a renaissance right now. I saw. I loved the other. A few weeks ago, you post. You went to some red carpet event, and then in sort of tribute of Pam Anderson, you didn't wear any makeup.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And you look fantastic.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

But I love how you were uplifting these women who are having this whole other, you know, moment in their career,

[B]

and they've all been through it.

[A]

They've been through it.

[B]

They've all been through the fire. Like, these are survivors, these women. Not only are they having this, you know. Renaissance. Renaissance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They are survivors that have come out of the flames.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I am so in awe of that. You know, Nicole Kidman, you can keep naming all these women in their late 50s, early 60s having these great moments for women. I think it's so important for my daughters to see that you're not washed up when you turn 60 years old. Like, you can still be a viable female in this world. And I just think. I think it's really important to not stop growing and learning and shining. And I think it's super important and part of my job, I think, to show women you can still have fun, have joy. You can dance. You can be silly. You can be weird. You can be beautiful. You can be everything. So I kind of feel like it's part of what I'm here for.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, do you get emotional, like being on a. A Runway in Paris?

[B]

Oh, my God, yes.

[A]

I mean, you started your career, obviously, as a model, but, like, this doesn't happen for really, people after a certain age.

[B]

62 years old. Hello. Like, what.

[A]

I mean, yeah.

[B]

I mean, it's it's truly.

[A]

There's an expiration date on what people consider that career take be Hollywood. Yeah.

[B]

Well, when I turned 40, that's when we started the stores, because I thought my career was over. I was acting at the time, and I thought, well, if we don't figure something out, because I'm not going to be working.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But now look at it 22 years later and go, wow, I would never have seen this moment then. Like, I could never have envisioned it or dreamt it. So that's what's cool.

[A]

Yeah. Something I didn't think of, but of course, it kind of makes sense. And because you always look so fabulous on Housewives, but, you know, you really peel the curtain back in your book and, you know, you talk about how so many designers don't want to dress people on the Housewives because they don't want to get wrapped up into any negative storylines or press. And so all of those things you were wearing were things that you had to pay for or beg for or. I don't know, or whatever.

[B]

Rent. Some people rent it. I don't know. But, yeah, you know, as actors, we're used to having our hair and makeup done and a stylist do our clothes, right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was the biggest shock for me to do the show. And they're like, well, you have to do your own hair, makeup, and you have to dress yourself. And I was like, oh. And that's where all my money went. Because you just spend all your money on that.

[A]

Yeah. Because you have to look a certain

[B]

way and then you want to look a certain way.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And then there's, like, a bar, and if you don't meet it, you look stupid. Anyway. Yeah, it was a very big eye opener. And I have a lot of great shoes and pants, clothes from that time. You come in my closet and you're like, damn, girl. That's where the money went right there. Gone.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really. I mean, so many people love it, but I really love your. Yours and Harry's love story.

[B]

It's pretty amazing. We've been together for 33 years. It's a long time. I know.

[A]

And you were so young. 29, you know, and I. You talk beautifully about it in your book. You know, working at that sunglass store and meeting Harry, and you were hustling then, like, you know, waitressing and.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I hadn't made it yet as an actor.

[A]

Was this before or after Hogan's?

[B]

That's a good question.

[A]

What was the show? Hogan's Heroes.

[B]

Hogan's Family.

[A]

Hogan's Family, right. Yeah. With Jason Bateman at the same time. Yeah.

[B]

So I worked with Bateman. Done. I did. I don't remember how many episodes I did, to be honest, but right during that time. And then I got Days of Our Lives, so I had already done Hogan's during that time, but then I'm on unemployment.

[A]

It's really fun to watch you. In that case, it's you with long hair.

[B]

So wild. Yeah, I know. I'm like a baby. I'm 26, long hair. Jason's only 21, and I learned so much from him. I mean, you know how talented he is.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

I learned so much. And he was 21 years old.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was a great time. And do you know, it turns out he's my neighbor now.

[A]

No way. Really?

[B]

He literally lives down the street. Yeah. So full circle, you know, moment. Anyway, yeah, I was collecting unemployment. My friend owned the eyeglasses store, so he's paying me cash. Yeah, you do what you got to do, right?

[A]

We got to do.

[B]

And then I got Days of Our Lives, and then I stopped working at the IBOSS store.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. What do you think you're gonna do now? What. What is like. Do you want to take a break?

[B]

No, I mean, I'll take a break when I'm dead. You know? That's the way I look at it. We can act. The great news is we can do this career as long as we want. Yeah, I think you really can. I would like to act again. I really would like to do a great series, you know, that would be fun. I mean, that's my. That would be my number one. But I'm also open to the universe and what it brings, because I might not be right. You know what I mean? Sometimes I want something that isn't really what I'm supposed to be doing. So I also like to stay open, because three years ago, I could never have written that I would be sitting front row at couture shows in Paris. So you gotta stay open to that stuff. How.

[A]

How do you think you manifested that?

[B]

I didn't at all, usually, because I'm a pretty good manifester, and I can really set my mind to something that came out of the blue. I did not expect that, not for one second. I mean, fashion's always in my. You know, it's always here. But it wasn't like, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do this. That was a phone call that came right after I left Housewives, because there was a lot of press. So people were seeing me a lot. And my publicist called and said, do you think you could go to Paris in four days? Kenzo wants to fly you there. They'll put you up. The George sank. I was like, yeah. I just said, absolutely. And that's how it was begin. And I just kept saying yes. While I was there. People would see that I was there, and they would invite me to another show. And I just kept going to the different shows.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, okay. I like this. This is fun. So three years later, I walked couture for this young designer named Kevin Germanier. And it was so thrilling. It was just a trip and a half. Because, you know, there's so much pressure. You want to do well for them. Like, I'm opening the show, not that I'm just in it. I open the damn thing. No pressure.

[A]

Yeah. You don't want to fuck it up.

[B]

You don't want to fuck it up. It's his baby. It's his creation. It's his dream. So luckily, I didn't fuck it up. I looked okay. I was smooth. I didn't embarrass my daughters. That was emotional. Another thing, I was like, oh, my God.

[A]

Were they in the. Were they.

[B]

They weren't there, but everybody knew I was doing it. And, you know, they're both models, and my youngest is a very big model.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I thought, shit, I cannot embarrass this family. I cannot put shame on the family.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I had all that going on in my mind. I was just like, just don't look like Ramona Singer on the red. You know, on the Runway, my girl said, mom, whatever you do, don't look like Ramona. So I have that in my mind.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Don't look like Ramona. Don't have googly eyes. So I got through it, and it was really exciting. I didn't fuck it up. And he seemed very happy. Kevin.

[A]

Well, that's good. That's good. Yeah. Something that really struck me in your book. I mean, you are so open about so many things.

[B]

I know. It scares me.

[A]

Are you nervous for people to read some of it?

[B]

Yeah, because. Because it's so vulnerable. I don't like to be vulnerable. Like, who does? Right. It's so painful. But I knew if I wrote this book, I had to. Yeah, but am I scared yet?

[A]

When you say. When you say that, the stuff that you're vulnerable about, are you talking about the stuff with your family or stuff with your name?

[B]

Anything. I'm open and vulnerable and honest. About is terrifying.

[A]

Had you. And if you don't want to talk about. If you don't want this to be a part of the podcast, we could just be like, let's not talk about that. But had you ever talked to. About your daughters suffering from pandas before or.

[B]

No, I tried to talk about it on the show because, you know, we were open. It was right in our lives. Like, it was really very practical.

[A]

They want stuff about your lives, but then also on their terms.

[B]

They all want it on their terms. If she'd had an eating disorder, it would have made the show. So we were going through that at the time, and it was really, really, really difficult because nobody really knew what it was. And so, no, I haven't talked about it. And I'm glad that I get to, because I also know families that are suffering. And so anytime I can get out what really is going on and what was going on that I felt very good about saying, yeah, that was a great moment to have.

[A]

I mean, I'm a newish father, five and a half and three year old, and, you know, I mean, when your kids are in any sort of pain, it is just.

[B]

It was rough for 10 years.

[A]

It cuts right through the heart.

[B]

It was brutal.

[A]

You know, I mean, you talk about how Harry would have to, like, sit outside of her classroom because she would be having panic attacks, and how what really struck me, and this was what I think I really related to, because I have two kids. You know, there are those moments where you have to focus on, like, the one who needs your help. You have to put the mask on the one who needs your help. And you have this other kid who you also don't want them to feel neglected, but they do, and they do,

[B]

because you can't help that. And we talk a lot about it. You know, we've discussed it very openly. And Amelia's been very open about how she felt because the attention was all on Delilah. And luckily, we have a great, as I'm sure you do, too. We're very fortunate to have great people to help us. And my mom and dad were really super helpful. And, you know, we have somebody who's been with Harry Since, I think, 36 years, Lorena, who was there and was able to have Amelia come and stay with her at her house during some times. And so you make it work, but it's never easy. You know, parenting is really the hardest thing there is.

[A]

Yeah, but that's just. I mean, I'm so grateful you wrote this book because it. I think sometimes with Celebrity are people that we see on television, specifically reality tv. You put them on a pedestal.

[B]

I think we put all actors on pedestal.

[A]

Yeah. But I think with. With reality stars, you. You do. And not to say that you're a reality because you're so many things, but, like, you lived a big chunk of your life on a reality star TV show. And I feel this way with Colton, too. You know, you. You. You encapsulate them in this version, of course, that you have in your head.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

And seeing the humanity, you know, you're also a mother who was going through this with her child. You're also, you know, and I'm sure it affected, you know, your relationship with Harry. And how do we deal with this as a couple and the fact that you've been so honest with that, I just feel like it's really, really remarkable, and it really makes us. It makes the world feel smaller. And these people who you think, okay, they're nothing like me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're like, oh, yeah, there are threads of commonality here.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And I thought that was really, really lovely.

[B]

Oh, good. Well, we're human. And I think it's super important to show your humanity as where I am in my life right now. I think it's really important for people to hear that it's not easy to be married for all these years. It's not easy to raise a family anywhere, let alone Hollywood, California. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's so many things that you don't know what's behind the curtain. You don't know, as you say, you know, when you see people, you don't know what they're dealing with in their lives. And I think it's important to share that. You know, I thought it was important to share all of that.

[A]

Yeah. When does the book actually come out?

[B]

February 24th.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

So a couple weeks. Well, this sure was fun.

[A]

This was fun.

[B]

I'm glad we got to finally do it.

[A]

Thank you for saying yes to this.

[B]

I'm glad I'm only saying yes to my people that I like. And otherwise I'm like, nope, not doing it.

[A]

Yeah, well, I'm thrilled that we're buddies. I'm thrilled that you love me.

[B]

I adore you, and I love your husband.

[A]

Isn't he great?

[B]

I love your husband.

[A]

I know. He's pretty great. I'm very lucky.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We married. We both married really good friends.

[B]

We married good men.

[A]

I hope that we have as long of a run as you, too.

[B]

Me, too. I know you Just gotta work on it, you know?

[A]

We do.

[B]

If you need to go to therapy, you go to therapy. If you have issues you can't get through, you just gotta do it. It's not cute all the time.

[A]

Yeah, no, no, it's not.

[B]

It's not cute all the time.

[A]

No, it's not. But we do work on it. And you're right. It's harder than you think it's gonna be.

[B]

Well, yeah. Cause life gets difficult.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you can start to grow apart. And then you gotta make sure that you. You come back together. It's. It's. It's work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Marriage, a good marriage, is a lot of work.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

So just do that. Keep doing that. And respect, you know, you. As long as you have a mutual respect for one another, I think is really the key. Like you. The minute you start to devalue one another, that's when you got to go to therapy and stop that. Because it's easy. Resentment builds up and you could be like, mad from 20 years ago and not even know it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You gotta catch that shit.

[A]

Good advice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This has been therapy with Lisa Rinna.

[B]

Good therapy with Lisa Rinna. We can go have a cigarette now. It's almost like sex with Lisa Rinna. Have a cigarette.

[A]

I adore you. Thanks for doing this.

[B]

I adore you. Thank you.

[A]

This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at Coral Tree Cafe in Brentwood, California. Next week on Dinners On Me. You know her from Bridesmaids, Reno, 911, the Goldbergs, and currently as hospital administrator, Joyce. On St. Denis Medical, it's Wendy McLendon Covey. We get into her improv days. The surprise side hustle she kept until the Goldbergs and the possibility of a cameo by me on St. Denis. One can only hope. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing. Subscribing to Dinners on Me. Plus, as a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad free. Just click try free at the top of the Dinners on Me show page on Apple Podcasts. To start your free trial today, Dinners On Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Behr engineered this episode. Hans Dale, she composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tameka Balance Kolasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.

[B]

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[A]

[e-mail] 149.