MARCIA GAY HARDEN — on mastering dialects and crying to Meryl Streep

Summary

Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson: Marcia Gay Harden on Mastering Dialects and Crying to Meryl Streep

Release Date: December 3, 2024

In this captivating episode of Dinner’s on Me, host Jesse Tyler Ferguson sits down with the esteemed actress Marcia Gay Harden. Recorded at Ocean Prime in Beverly Hills, California, the conversation delves deep into Marcia’s illustrious career, her approach to acting, personal insights into parenting queer children, and memorable moments from her time in theater history.

1. Introduction and Background

Jesse opens the episode by sharing his admiration for Marcia Gay Harden, highlighting her Oscar-nominated roles in Mystic River and Pollock, as well as her significant contributions to Broadway, notably in Angels in America. Reflecting on his personal connection, Jesse recounts how Angels in America served as a pivotal moment in his teenage years, shaping his understanding of powerful storytelling.

Jesse Tyler Ferguson (05:07): "Marcia has always been a dream guest of mine for this podcast, so I am so excited that it finally worked out."

2. Marcia’s Acting Techniques and Dialect Coaching

The conversation shifts to Marcia’s dedication to her craft, particularly her recent work with a dialect coach for a new character. Marcia explains the challenges of maintaining an accent off-camera, sharing a humorous anecdote about inadvertently slipping into her character’s voice while interacting with Jesse.

Marcia Gay Harden (09:14): "I have to talk in it all the time. Because otherwise I can only do it on the lines."

Jesse, an actor himself, delves into the intricacies of adopting different dialects and how these nuances impact performance, fostering a mutual appreciation for the depth of their professions.

3. Storytelling and Mirror Neurons

Marcia introduces the concept of mirror neurons, suggesting that actors might possess an enhanced ability to empathize and imitate through these neurons. She theorizes that this neurological trait is fundamental to effective storytelling, enabling actors to convey genuine emotions and connect deeply with audiences.

Marcia Gay Harden (11:07): "Actors have more of a mirror neuron or they're somehow very enhanced than other people."

Jesse echoes her sentiments, emphasizing the natural storytelling prowess of Marcia and how it translates to her work, including her children’s podcast, Snorees.

4. Parenting and Mothering Queer Kids

Transitioning to personal life, Marcia candidly discusses her experiences raising three queer children in a predominantly conservative and religious family environment. She shares heartfelt insights into guiding her children through challenging social interactions, emphasizing the importance of empowering them with the ability to assert boundaries and embrace their identities.

Marcia Gay Harden (14:03): "You can say no. You don't need to decimate them only because that extracts something from you."

Jesse commends Marcia’s approach, highlighting the natural way she integrates her advocacy into her parenting, fostering resilience and self-assurance in her children.

5. Role in "Angels in America" and Its Impact

A significant portion of the discussion centers around Marcia’s role in Angels in America. She reflects on the profound personal and cultural impact of the play, particularly in relation to the AIDS crisis and its representation on stage. Marcia recounts how being part of the original cast allowed her to engage with audiences on deeply emotional and societal issues.

Marcia Gay Harden (20:55): "Being in that play, we got to be a part of this. These moments of watching the AIDS story shift. So for me, it feels like one of the biggest honors of my life."

Jesse shares a touching personal story about attending Angels in America with his father, illustrating the play’s broader impact on personal relationships and societal understanding.

6. Wig Dispute with Director George C. Wolfe

The episode delves into a dramatic and vulnerable moment from Marcia’s theater career involving a conflict with director George C. Wolfe over her character’s wig in Angels in America. Marcia describes the emotional toll of maintaining her character’s appearance against Wolfe’s insistence to remove the wig, culminating in a physically and emotionally intense confrontation backstage.

Marcia Gay Harden (24:04): "And I was sobbing. He was pulling it and I was pulling it and I was sobbing. No, you can't have it."

Despite the pain, Marcia acknowledges the necessity of such compromises in theater, ultimately finding solace in the significance of the role and the personal growth it fostered.

7. Career Journeys and Experiences in Theater and Film

Marcia and Jesse exchange stories about their early careers, highlighting the often humbling and unpredictable nature of the acting industry. Marcia shares her experience winning an Oscar for Pollock and the subsequent challenges she faced in securing meaningful roles, including returning to catering despite her accolades.

Marcia Gay Harden (27:01): "I went back to catering because, like just like you, I have to pay the bills."

Jesse parallels her experiences with his own initial struggles, discussing his time working in theater gift shops and coffee shops while pursuing acting opportunities. This mutual understanding underscores the relentless dedication required in their field.

8. Closing Remarks

As the episode draws to a close, Marcia and Jesse reflect on their growth as actors and individuals, emphasizing the importance of perseverance and authenticity. They also discuss their aspirations for future collaborations and the directors they admire, showcasing their continued passion for the craft.

Marcia Gay Harden (41:06): "I've always wanted to work with Kenneth Branagh. I think that'd be really lovely."

Jesse expresses his gratitude for Marcia’s openness and the enriching conversation, setting the stage for future episodes filled with equally inspiring discussions.

Notable Quotes

• Marcia Gay Harden (12:09): "The neuron that allows you to imitate your face and imitate and to empathetically if you are feeling sad. My face feels sad."

• Jesse Tyler Ferguson (22:22): "Have I shared that with you?"

• Marcia Gay Harden (37:03): "What he needed to know... He thought I have to be loyal to Masha."

Conclusion

This episode of Dinner’s on Me offers an intimate glimpse into Marcia Gay Harden’s multifaceted life, blending professional triumphs with personal challenges. Through thoughtful dialogue and shared experiences, Jesse and Marcia provide listeners with valuable insights into the resilience and artistry that define their careers. Whether discussing the emotional depths of Angels in America, the complexities of parenting, or the relentless pursuit of excellence in acting, this conversation is a testament to the enduring power of storytelling and authentic connections.

For those who haven't listened yet, this episode is a must-watch for its rich, engaging content and the profound wisdom shared by two seasoned actors navigating the highs and lows of their craft.

Transcript

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

The other day I was making lemonade with my sons, Beckett and Sully, and Beckett is a little bit of a perfectionist. I'm not sure where he gets that from. It's me. It's definitely me. But he was getting really upset about the seeds falling into the juice and it was turning into a bit of high drama. Now listen, there's an easier way to do this. Who knew? Wonderful seedless lemons are a 100% naturally seedless lemon variety. They're juicy, zesty, bright, and everything you love about lemons minus the. See, that's right. No more seeds floating in your lemonade or Diet Coke or getting caught in your teeth when you take a bite of salad. Frankly, that's just a hazard. Wonderful seedless lemons are available nationwide at retailers such as Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, Walmart, Kroger, as well as select Costco outlets. Look for Wonderful seedless lemons at your local retailer or visit wonderfulseedlesslemons.com to learn more. Hey, it's Jesse. So I've got a bit of a crazy life. I have two kids under five, two dogs, a husband, a busy career. And I also just added another thing to my to do list. Hosting on Airbnb. Now, to be honest, I haven't yet pulled the trigger because I'm getting a little overwhelmed with everything I would need to do to be on top of everything as a host. I'd want to put gorgeous photos up to show off the amazing space. I would want to make sure that I'm as responsive as possible to guest and anticipate any questions or needs they might have. You know, you gotta get those good reviews. Plus I gotta make sure that the house is in tip top shape, linens are clean, everything is pristine for when they arrive. See, I'm. I'm already tired just thinking about it. It's like a part time job. That's why I'm so excited about Airbnb's new co host feature. Now I can hire a local co host to handle all the details while I'm away. They can create my listing, manage reservations, communicate with guests, and even style my space. So it's perfect for every guest. It's like having a trusted friend who's really good at this stuff. Just take care of everything. I can focus on my family and my work knowing that my home and my guests are in great hands. Find a co [e-mail] host hi, it's Jesse today on the show. You know her from her Oscar nominated performance in mystic river or Maybe her Oscar winning performance in Pollock. Or perhaps her incredible Broadway career that started with Angels in America. And most recently, her children's podcast, Snorees. It's Marcia Gay Hardin.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I'll be with my kids sometimes, and people will come up and, oh, my God, you recognize me and talk to me. And they always see me, like, come back to them, go, like, it's so weird. Like, I don't get it. And son Hudson finally goes, mom, you're a legend. I'm like, no, I don't see myself that way. I'm not. And he goes, mom. Especially in the gay community.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

This is Dinner's on Me. And I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Marsha Gay Hardin is a name I knew long before I moved to New York City. Long before I even left Albuquerque, New Mexico. She was a name in the original cast list printed on page seven of my worn through copy of Angels in America. All right. This play, Angels in America by Tony Kushner, meant so much to me when I read it as a teenager. It was like a peek into the world beyond Albuquerque. It taught me what great writing could do. It felt like a. It felt like a rescue raft, really. I can't even tell you how many times I read that play. And even though by the time I got to see Angels in America on Broadway, the original cast had mostly left, I idolized the people who created these roles on Broadway. The first time I actually got to see Marcia live on stage with my own eyes was in an incredible, starry production of the Seagull opposite Kevin Kline and Meryl Streep. The year before, she had picked up an Academy Award for her performance as Lee Krasner in the movie Pollock. And I remember thinking, yeah, of course this woman is firing on all cylinders. She's Marcia Gay Hardin. I've known about her ever since I first read Angels in America. I mean, you would have thought I single handedly discovered this mega talent. I had such grand dreams of how our lives would one day intersect. And indeed, they one day did intersect in the baggage claim line at the airport. Not nearly the glamorous introduction I was hoping for. But that did not stop me from basically bowing down to her and gushing for as long as it took our bags to arrive. I guess you could say we have. We've been friends ever since, and I still pinch myself that I can call her a friend now. Marcia has always been a dream guest of mine for this podcast, so I am so excited that it finally worked out. It was even more perfect that she was coming to me mere moments after finishing a session with a dialect coach she was working with for a new character she was about to play.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I just finished. I was across the street, so, I'm sorry, a few seconds late. Oh, you're fine doing this accent work with this guy. So it keeps popping in.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I know. I was like, are you British now?

[Marcia Gay Harden]

No.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I took Marcia to Ocean prime in Beverly Hills, a sleek seafood and steakhouse restaurant that's as glamorous as it is inviting. The ambiance. Think dark wood paneling, plush booths, and sparkling chandeliers, but still relaxed enough to make you feel at ease the moment you walk through the door. The menu is a celebration of fresh seafood, and let me tell you, I love sushi. And this sushi tasted like it came straight out of the ocean. Somehow Ocean prime has that rare ability to feel both elegant and effortlessly cool at the same time, which is exactly why I thought it was the perfect spot for Marcia. Okay, let's get to the conversation.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

How do you do this? What do we do?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

We're already doing it. It's already going.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Are we eating?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

We're eating. Are you hungry? I'm starving. Also, the fact that I'm gonna maybe eat sushi with Marcia Gay Harden in Beverly Hills is really making my day.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

First of all, Jesse, you're making me laugh, because when I was doing Got a car dish, Used people. No, used people. With Marcello Mastroianni in Canada, we became good friends, and he hated to eat alone.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And so he would always love me to go out to eat with him, because I ate.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

So I'm one of the few American actresses that he would know who would actually eat. So we would go, and I. And once he had, like, a hugely famous, kind of like, Bertolucci type DP in, and he invited me to lunch, and he's with him, and he said, see. See, Ma. Watch. Watch. She. She. She eats. She eats.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Watch.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

She has a dessert. So, like, I gained 10 pounds on that film. I had to buy a whole new wardrobe, literally. But I do want to eat.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. I definitely eat while doing this.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

What are you going to have?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I definitely want sushi.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I do, too. Hello there.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

How are you? Hi. How are you?

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Good. Would you like to get started with some filtered water? Bottled, sparkling, or bottled still, while you look over?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I would love. I would love sparkling.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And then for lunch, there's a few things that are not printed anywhere on the menus. I have a lobster linguine if you're in the mood for pasta. Wow. Also have a 7 ounce Australian wagon filet and a 12 ounce Australian lobster toast. Wow. Take your time.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Do you know what you want? Do we have questions?

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Well, I think I want us to try the deviled eggs just for a little appetizer.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

We absolutely need to do that. I'm gonna do the nigiri.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

The nigiri looks really good. Those are individual pieces, so you can customize and how many you would like on your plate. You get one of each. You're saying if you like. I think we should get the nigiri.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, let's get the nigiri and a.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Dynamite roll or something.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Fantastic.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Okay.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And then the deviled eggs are completely off vinegar. Do you want kilter for me? Two pieces of each. So you each have one salmon.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Definitely two pieces of each. Do you want more than three pieces of sushi?

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Whatever you do? I will.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I can do two of each, if.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

You think you will.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Sure. Two of each. Yeah, let's do two of each.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Anything other than sparkling water for now.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I think I'm okay with that.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Sparkling water is going to be good. So what is your favorite thing about this?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You know, what it's been. I mean, I really like actually researching and, like, watching stuff that I've maybe missed or, like, forgotten about. Like, I went into a bit of a deep dive watching Pollock and Mystic river and. But also just, like, remembering some of the stuff that I got to see you do on stage. And, like, it's just so fun to sort of, like, you know, discover new things. I hadn't actually ever seen Mother's Crossing.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Oh, that's wild. Yeah, that's wild.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And the Coen brothers are, like, one of my favorite filmmakers of all time. So I was. I got to see that for the first time. So that's been my favorite. Sort of doing the revolution research for each different person.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

You go down a rabbit hole.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I kind of tried to. Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Like, open up doors a little bit.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

It's interesting.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But, I mean, I love that you just came from a dialect coaching, because I was actually, when I was watching Pollock and Mystic River. I mean, those are two such wildly different dialects.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I mean, that's something I. And I'm going to geek out a little bit, just as an actor asking another actor I admire, like, how I just feel like, when you're on set and you're starting, like, the first day of shooting and you have a big swing like that, like a dialect, because it's not like a play where you get to change the way you do it tomorrow.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I have to talk in it all the time. I have to talk in it all the time. Because otherwise I can only do it on the lines. And there's no rhythm, there's no cadence to it, because I'm just doing my line reading of the.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right. And you're wearing the accent and it's not part of you.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Right. You're wearing it. But I would serve. I think you've probably heard me say this before. I would serve the kids breakfast. Thank you. Serve the kids breakfast with it. Like, who wants. Who wants their cereal? Who's having corn flakes? I'd be like, mom, stop it immediately. It was awful. I would do that. Like, even for this one in Boston, Rosie, I had that. She came from Queensland. Rose. Rose was always talking like Rose to them. And now they still love it, they do those characters. But for me, that's what I'm trying to say. It's why sometimes I'm coming out sounding really stupid with you right now, because I am still a little bit in my mindset.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, your head's facing a little bit.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

My head's a little bit there. Cause I was just doing it in the car with him. And every vowel I'm trying to get lower than my own way of doing it. Well, how do you do it?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I was going to ask you, when do you forget about those tiny nuances and just live in the scene? Is it really. You have to live with that accent.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

That's what I think. You don't think so?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, I just. I don't know. I mean, I always feel like I flip back into thinking about, oh, that ballad was a little off and, you know, heard that that sound went up too much.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Oh, yeah, but I still do that in my head. Yeah, but it's. This is the weird thing about an actor's brain and I wish they would do real scientific research on it because, you know, we have these things called mirror neurons. And I. My theory is that actors have more of a mirror neuron or they're somehow very enhanced than other people.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What is a mirror neuron?

[Marcia Gay Harden]

It's the neuron that allows you me to imitate your face and imitate and to empathetically if you are feeling sad. My face feels sad. And they sound like amongst the bonobos, the ape that is the one, the. The right hand one to the king or whatever of the apes isn't the strongest, which it is in other apes, gorillas, it's not the strongest, it's the most sympathetic. And when you Think about great storytellers. There's a new book by the guy who wrote Sapiens. I haven't read this book yet, but I think I forget what it's called. I'll think of it. Anyway, he said that they don't think the Neanderthals are very good storytellers, basically. So you can imagine being back in the day, right, in the cave. Day.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And someone's like, tell us about the hunt. And someone comes in and says, well, in the hunt, the senior leader lifted up the sword and got the wild boar before.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Very pragmatic, very factual.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And everyone's like, cut, cut. And then someone's like, no, no, no, that's not what had it all. Okay. We were gathered around the bush and then we heard a crack in the distance. And then creepy. And they, like, tell the story with all the detail and the expression. And that's the storyteller. That's the storyteller you want to listen to. And this book, he's saying that he thinks that's a huge part of what made humans humans. Storytelling, being able to tell our stories. And of course, then we remember our history because we're storytelling too. It's not just primal and instinctive, it's this story. Look. Yeah. Little caviar on top.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Beautiful.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

It's a little crown.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, that's so pretty. Mmm. No, I. I definitely went into, like a deep rabbit hole with. With all that work that you. I just feel like you are such a great storyteller. And I also love, you know, with what you're doing right now with the. The podcast, you know, kind of bringing that into, you know, your storytelling, into, like, helping kids find peace and sleep with Snorris.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Snorris.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Snorris, right.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Three Z's. Snorris.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

S N O R I E Z zz, the app for.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Did you actually listen to it?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I did, yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Did you?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

How old are your kids?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Four and two.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Oh, the four year old's, Right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

He's at the right age. Yeah. On the, like, you know, Beckett is. My four year old is very sensitive and he gets very upset if he's starting to have a bad day in the morning. Like, if we have. If he's starting off on the bad foot, you know, he gets really upset. He's like, I really want to have a good day. And it breaks my heart to hear him say that. And so as I'm talking him through, like, okay, let's reset ourselves. Let's really ground ourselves in our surroundings.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And, like, that's what this podcast is all about so that you can know that no matter where you are, that you can focus on something other than your feelings.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, right.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

You can focus on hard facts and what's around you, and then you kind of know it's okay. I'm okay. I'm gonna be all right. And teach him a script.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Tell me more about that.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Well, I was speaking to Julita, one of my kids who's in school in Rhode island, and this guy kind of hit on her. And I was upstairs checking us into the hotel, and this guy kind of hit on her and wanted her number, and she said no, and then he wanted her Instagram. She said no, and then he pushed and he pushed and he pushed. She finally gave him her Instagram. She came upstairs. She was mad at me. She said, I guess I learned I had to be polite to people and kind to people. And I was like, no, no. I taught you. You can say no. You don't need to decimate them only because that extracts something from you. You're building toxicity that you don't need. And I said, what we need to do is discuss a script that really works for you GT so that it comes to you the next time somebody's being pushy, because they know sort of very predatorial. They know that pushy, that wheedling kids do it all the time. They know that wheedling, that pushing is going to get you. But come on, come on. And then they make fun of you. Come on. What's the worst of go. And soon you bought into all that crap as opposed to just saying no.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I was wondering about what kind of a script can a young child have that helps them in these situations? Right?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Absolutely. Yeah. You know, I mean, I've been such an advocate for LGBTQ rights for my entire life, and you've been obviously very private with your life, which I really respect. And I know you've talked about, like, there's a difference between being an actor and a celebrity and, like, a celebrity group, you know, you are your personality and you share so much of yourself. And, you know, that's not how you felt comfortable moving forward. But, like, in recent years, you have been very open about the fact that all three of your kids are identify as queer. And I've really appreciated the way you've used your opportunities and your platform to talk about how you mothered these queer kids. And, I mean, that. Was that a scary thing for you to talk about? Did you have conversations with them about, or is it just sort of happen naturally as we're as our world is sort of.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

No, I had conversations because I don't want to. I didn't want to out them.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And if they weren't ready for people to know.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Or even people in my family who. I have a lot of really conservative and some super religious people in my family. I'll say everybody accepts them, but that doesn't mean everybody approves of them. So I did. But I don't think I've ever gotten so much hate mail as when I spoke at one of these functions. It was. Drag isn't dangerous. And you could tell that there was a real engine of hatred that was put in place. And people said about grooming, what are the chances that all three of your kids and I think in the ancient world, I suspect it would be so much more normalized. I suspect that there weren't the mores and traditions and ideologies of disapproval. I suspect that people were attracted to both. Certainly much more than we admit to today.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Well, I find it very natural, but.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

That'S all I've known. Darling, it is natural. I mean, that's the whole thing. It is natural.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Yeah. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Marcia tells me about being part of theater history with Angels in America, her infamous wig dispute with the director George C. Wolfe, and going back to a catering job after her first big film role. Okay, be right back. So recently I've gotten back into somewhat of a consistent workout routine. But one thing I did realize, and I'm embarrassed to say this, is that some of my athleisure wear was looking a little worse for wear. I ended up doing a little refresh with some items from Quince. I got a few of the flow Knit Breeze performance tees and polo shirts. They're super comfy and lightweight. They look really great. And fun fact, the fabric is made from recycled water bottles. All right, but we got to talk about the price. These shirts feel just as nice as the name brand shirts I have that were quadruple the price. Okay, how is this possible? Let me tell you. Quint's partners directly with factories, cutting out the cost of the middleman and passing the savings directly on to you. And I appreciate that they only work with factories that have safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices. Upgrade your wardrobe with pieces made to last with quints. Go to quints.com JTF for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com JTF to get free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a year, people. Quince.com JTF this episode is brought to.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

You by Google Gemini. With the Gemini app, you can talk live and have a real time conversation with an AI assistant. It's great for all kinds of things, like if you want to practice for an upcoming interview, ask for advice on things to do in a new city, or brainstorm creative ideas. And by the way, this script was actually read by Gemini. Download the Gemini app for iOS and Android today. Must be 18 to use Gemini live.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And we're back with more dinners on meme. Marcia, have I ever. I mean, I've known you for a while now, and I don't know if I've ever actually told you how much Angels in America means to me. Have I shared that with you?

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I don't think so.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No. I didn't see you in the show because by the time I came to New York, you had left.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I saw it with Cynthia Nixon, who I think was your replacement. Yes. What does it feel like to be a part of a piece of art and a piece of theater that so many people have such deep emotional connection to?

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I mean, it's so rare.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

A. My first boyfriend was gay and had died of AIDS in 1984, I believe it was. So the reality of that was so much on my mind. And in that play, as you know, when we were performing it, men were bringing their parents to see the show and I was living in the West Village and they would come up to me and they would say, are you Marcia Gay Harden? I'd. Yes. Well, I took my parents to see the show and then I told them I was dying or I took them to see the show and then I told them I had aids, which to their parents meant they were dying. So I was a part of this. Tony was a part through Tony and George. And being in this play, we got to be a part of this. These moments of watching the AIDS story shift. So for me, it feels like one of the biggest honors of my life, like probably the biggest honor of my work life to have been in that play.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's also, I mean, I was coming out of high school, just moving to New York. When that play was on Broadway, were you out? Yes. Ish. But when my dad took me to New York, he drove me to New York from Albuquerque, New Mexico, in the Suburban, the family Suburban, and dropped me off my student housing and stayed with me for about a week. And I took him to go see Angels in America. And I sat with him and he was already sort of aware of this play just because he'd seen me do this cutting of it for my speech and debate tournament in high school. But here we were watching, you know, the Broadway cast and the George C. Wolf directed production and this Pulitzer Prize winning play. And it was a very profound moment for me because we didn't talk about it afterwards. We didn't talk about the play. But I think there was a big shift in my relationship with my dad having sat next to me watching that play, knowing that his son was gay for never having that conversation. And when you were talking about just having conversations and how storytelling is so important, I felt like just sitting in the Presence in that theater and watching these actors tell us a story was a conversation between me and my dad was enough. Yeah, okay.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

That's beautiful.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. So that play really is. Means so much to me. I do have a follow up question for you though.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Yep.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I've asked Tony about this, I've asked George about this and I've read about it in the oral history. There was, from what I read. And you participated in this too because you talk about it. There was a wig that you were determined to wear as Harper. And George said, you need to lose the wig. You need to lose the wig. You said, I need the wig, I need the wig, I need the wig. And it ended up in what I understand to be a wrestling match with the wig backstage.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

No, you're not wrong.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Do you want to elaborate on any of this?

[Marcia Gay Harden]

On Critics Night.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

On Critics Night. Okay. So the New York Times was there.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

It was the night before opening, I think. Ok, right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Uh huh.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I was on Critics Night and he said I had a wig. It was beautiful, long brown kind of curly hair. Because I had the idea of this pioneer woman and it was a character I was playing. And George said, we can't see you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

George Sebolt, the director.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Yeah, the director said, we can't see you. And I said, but you don't want to fucking see me. You want to see her. And the hair is making you see her. And I am not taking it off. I am not taking it off. I had to perform one night with that on, with that in my brain, but I kept it on. And the next, there it was the next night. You have to take it off. We cannot see you. And it did end up in a wrestling match. And I was sobbing. He was pulling it and I was pulling it and I was sobbing. No, you can't have it. Honestly, Jesse, I probably Even ended up, like, going, no, and I'm ugly. I'm ugly. Like, having a. Ripping it off and having a tanty and screaming that I'm ugly. I'm ugly. Harbor Scott. She's just, like, punishing myself.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And then I had to. In the places.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Fuck. Oh, my God, Marcia.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And you go down, and my face is like, oh. Like that. And it was. It was so scary and awful and I was so vulnerable. But it was the right thing to do.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Whenever you're hiding.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

You have to come out of hiding. And it's the right thing to do. Right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Anyway, I just wanted to confirm Tony Kushner, George C. Wolf, and you all have the exact same story. I mean, it's pretty much the same thing. So it all lines up.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

What did George say?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, he basically reenacted you.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Yes.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Screaming and taking it off backstage. Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Marjorie Gay.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I just remember the wig was literally thrown at one point, so.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Did he say he threw it? Cause I bet he threw it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

He might have.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

The other one they probably don't tell you is that in the audition, when I went to the audition, I had just broken up again with my born again bagpiping boyfriend.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That sounds like a vocal warmup.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I know.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

My born again bagpiping boyfriend, and I was a mess.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Cut to. I have an audition for Angels in America. And so I go into one of those little stupid ass audition rooms. There's Tony and George sitting over there. And as I start doing the scenes, I burst into that kind of snot dripping on the floor. But I think what they saw that they liked was that Harper was in pain. Was in deep, deep pain. It wasn't the drugs. The drugs were to get her out of pain. You don't play the drug. You play the pain of betrayal and being gaslit and all that stuff. So they don't tell you that story because they're probably embarrassed about the little pile of snot that was on the floor that was there.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's incredible.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, my God.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

It was crazy.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Do you know that George C. Wolfe gave me my first job in New York, which was on the town at the Delacorte Theater in Central Park? He directed a revival of that. And I only bring it up because it was such a big moment for me, and I'm fascinated with this moment. With your first big break being Miller's Crossing, the Conan Brothers film. I know you went back to catering after that. So right before I got out of town, I was working at several different coffee shops, but also at a theater gift Shop. And I folded T shirts, you know, that was my job, Put scripts on the shelves.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Oh, God, I love that story.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So I, I did. I got to do Shakespeare in the park that summer. So I had three months of doing this incredible play. Everyone came to see on the Town. It got wonderful reviews and. But then afterwards I needed a job, right. And so I went back to the gift shop and I mean, I was 21 at the time. It's like, I have to pay the bill.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

That's right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I love that you had a similar situation with. After your big break with Mother's Crossing and you know, you were catering and you went back into that and like.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

There'S a company called Great Performances. Did you ever. Did you ever cater?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, no, I never.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

You never cater? No, no, I love this company. They're still around. Great Performances. And it was all actors and singers and artists and great people catering. But Millers Crossing, I got paid a penny, you know, for Millers Crossing. But for me it was a lot of money, but it was not much money. And I paid off my school debts right away.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Incredible.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

So that was the first thing I did. So I was like, just pretend like you don't have any penny left.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes, at a penny.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

A penny left. And then I went back to catering because, like, just like you, I have to pay the bills. But. And the movie hadn't come out yet, so people weren't like, what are you doing?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

But it wouldn't have mattered, really, because you have to do what you have to do.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Sure.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

But they. I do remember when I was working also at serving tea at the Pierre Hotel because I was also doing that part time. I remember businessmen would come in and go, when are you going to give up this hobby? When are you going to give up this hobby?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, acting.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Yeah, the acting. And you'd think, it's not a hobby, asshole. It's what I do. But at what I would think, at what point, if you've been waiting tables for years and years and years, is it. At what point do you say enough is enough? It's. Yeah, enough is.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I think about that a lot. I don't know if you're going to remember this, but we were talking, we were waiting for our bags of baggage claim either in JFK or lax. I don't know which coast we were on. And it was right before God of Carnage. The movie was going to come out. Oh, and I had seen obviously you in that brilliant performance on Broadway in which you won a Tony Award very deservedly for that play, by the way, is still one of my favorite things I've ever seen. And I asked you, you know, are you going to see the movie? And I was like. Because I was just curious, you know, you weren't in the movie that they were making. I mean, I was sort of shocked that you weren't, because at this point, you had already won an Oscar and you're being replaced by someone who is obviously Jodie Foster's incredibly talented. But, you know, it's like. I don't know. It was just strange to me. I guess it was like one of the first moments that I realized, like, you could have it all. You could have won the highest trophy that you can win as an actor and still have to claw your way to be considered for things. And I was thinking about that. I was thinking about. And this is not to make you feel bad at all, I was thinking about Angels in America, which I know. I don't know if you want to.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Talk about Mike Nichols or not, but.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Like, the same thing. Like, you weren't, you know, you didn't get to do that on. In the HBO version. You didn't get to play your part in God of Carnage on screen. And I remember you saying, like, after. Even after Miller's Crossing and after you won the Oscar for Pollock, you know, that it was hard still. And I just. I mean, part of me, I guess, is it's refreshing to hear that it's always hard. How do you feel about bitter? Bitter? I don't think you do, though.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Bitter, Bitter. You know, that's a good question. How do you do that and not be bitter? At some point, I have to just go, this is what I. This is where I am. And it's work. Yeah, it is work. So I think that that's probably it. Just that having that inner dialogue, like, here's the weird thing. I'll be with my kids sometimes, and people will come up and, oh, my God, do you recognize me? And talk to me more? Lately, a lot of people, and they always see me come back to them going, it's so weird. I don't get it. And son Hudson finally goes, mom, you're a legend. I'm like, no, I don't see myself that way. I'm not. And he goes, mom. Especially in the gay community. So anybody comes up, not mom, says hello to you. And so I think, well, you don't want to walk around life seeing yourself as a legend, right? That's so stupid. But you do, at least. It would not be fair to not know that we've affected people's lives 100%.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Which is why I shared that story about Angels America. Even though I didn't actually see you on stage doing it. The fact that you were part of that production, I mean, really, I mean, when I first got to know you, like, just knowing that you had your DNA was part of that character meant so much to me. That's absolutely right. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Marcia tells me about her full circle moment with director Mike Nichols, the advice Meryl Streep gave her and who she'd like to collaborate with in the future. Okay, be right back.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

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[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

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[Marcia Gay Harden]

Explore our tips and [e-mail] futureyou.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And we're back with more dinners on me. Can we talk about Mike Nichols?

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Uh huh.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Okay, good. You've worked with so many incredible directors and even when you're working with the greats, like, things happen, things happen. Like there are misconnections, there's miscommunication. There are, you know, things don't always go incredibly how you would hope that they would go. I shared a story about turning down spam a lot, right, Which Mike Nichols directed. And I was so nervous that he was going to be so angry at me. And the industry was telling me, you do not turn down Mike Nichols. But I turned him down to do a role in this musical, the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee. Fast forward. You know, Spelling bee ended up transferring to Broadway in the same season that Spamalot was on Broadway. We were up for Tony awards against one another. And there was one night at the end of spelling bee where I have to stand in the audience and sing, sing the last song to the Audience. And I go to my spot in the audience, and I'm standing right next to Mike Nichols, who's singing the show, and he has a big grin on his face. I was like, oh, my God.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Oh, my God.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

My heart was just beating out of my chest. Hadn't spoken to him since. I turned him down and finished the show, went backstage, was in my dressing room. Anyway, there's a knock on the door. I open it up, and Mike Nichols is standing in the hallway with his arms outstretched to me and gives me a big hug and says, you made the right choice. And I was like, wow. I built so much up in my head.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Yeah, for sure.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

About how you felt about me. But you shared a very interesting, not similar story, but journey.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Such a fucking worse story than yours. I don't know, Jesse. So in mine, I had won an Oscar for Pollock, and I got an offer, not even an audition, an offer to play Masha in the Seagull in Central park, which was the cast of Names Bonkers. Bonkers. It was Chris Walken, Meryl Streep, Kevin Klein, Natalie Portman, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Steven Spinella, Larry Pine, Deborah Monk, John Goodman. So of course I'm gonna do it. And I had in my mind, my vain little mind that Mike would see me and realize I was the new Meryl Streep, you know, that I was. That he needed to now make Sophie's Choice, too, but with me, you know, like. But I just had a mind that he would love me and that he would find someone similar in spirit and, you know, passion that he had for Meryl. By the way, I don't know that anyone is similar to Meryl. I think she's singularly one of the most inventive, and she's a goddess. But I was thinking he might think I'm goddess, too. I'm on another tier, maybe.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So we all want Mike Nichols to think we're goddesses.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Yeah, we do. Right. And so you go in thinking that. And I do find in theater that there's often a guinea pig more than in film. But it's not an unusual syndrome that there's a guinea pig.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Explain what that means, because I know what that means.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

But you know what it means. It means that there's one person who gets picked on, and when the show isn't going to be successful, it's going to be that person's fault. And there's nothing. No, no way that person can ever be successful. Anyway, we're doing it, and it's that cast of all those people.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And naturally, Meryl, rightly so, was the reigning queen of that particular play. So it very quickly became clear that no matter what I did as Masha, it was the wrong thing to do. And we sat around talking about the play for days. And then we went into rehearsal. I remember even in tech rehearsal, it was like, you know, masha opens the play, like, two, like, three minutes into the play. I'm like, I'm sorry. Can I go back and take this again? No, no. Mike says, no. Cut to Meryl. Like, we're at the end of Act 2 or something. She said, can I go back to the beginning? Like, yes, of course. This is my perception of it. Right? But she was very. I don't separate the two of us in any way. She was a huge supporter of me and told me the secret that I needed to know.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And you said you shared a dressing room.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

We shared a dressing room. And at one point, I sobbed to her, and I said, I don't think Mike likes me. I don't think Mike likes me. And she said, I don't know if he likes you or not, and it doesn't matter. I don't think he likes Masha. I don't think he likes Masha. And it's your job to stay loyal to your character. I'm like, okay, okay. We had a couple sips of vodka. Even though I've been sober for a couple years, I did a few sips of vodka to go play the drunk scene. And Mike said, you're amazing. Not because I'd had a couple sips of vodka, but because I decided I didn't give a shit.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

What? He thought I had to be loyal to Masha. And it was never. Playing Masha was never my finest hour because I don't think I realized it, because I don't think Mike directed me to help me realize it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You didn't trust.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Yeah, I just didn't, Jesse. I didn't. It didn't. The brain didn't crack open to let that make sense to me. And that kills me that things like that can happen. But probably that didn't happen because we, by then, already didn't have a great trusting relationship. So cut to. We do the play. It's fine. It's fine. He sort of, in little ways, and I, in little ways, tried to patch it together. But my big experience was doing the play with Meryl and just being in New York City doing a play in Central Park.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Delacorte Theater, the most important place in.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

The world, delicate theater in the world. Writing my bike home in the, you know, to the. Where I was living at the time in the 70s. Cut to years later now, 2009, I think it was. I do got a carnage. And unbeknownst to me, Mike's in the audience one night with Diane Sawyer, his wife. And someone says, you know, runs upstairs. Mike wants to come back after the play. Are you okay to see him?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Like, was this after you went to Tony Ward for it or no?

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Okay, I don't. You know what, that's a good question. I don't actually know.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I'm on the third, I'm on the top floor and he comes up and when he gets to the top, he's red faced and sweating because it was three floors up and it was hot. And Diane's kind of slightly behind him and he opens his arms just like with you. And he bursts into tears. And I hug him and he says, I was really hard on you during the Seagull, wasn't I? And I said, yes. And he said, even Philip Seymour told me I was really hard on you during the Seagull. And I said, well, you were. And he says, who knew? You're one of the greatest actresses in America. That's why the end of the story is a little embarrassing to say because.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But he said it.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

But he said it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I agree with him.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And I think that the takeaway for me is that it was a two way street. Mike was disappointed in what I didn't know. And he was also playing favorites as he does. He can be very hard on people. But he was disappointed that I didn't instinctively come at it with what he knew. And so he punished me a little bit for it. And also he was catering to a lot of other people in the play. A lot of big names.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

A lot of big names.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And the story for any actor listening isn't that it's always beautiful. It was very, very painful. Being the guinea pig is very painful. Not being liked, not being liked. Oh my God, you're an actor. Like me, like me, like me. Tell me I did okay. You know, that's all you want. And being in that moment and going, oh, I'm not Meryl Streep too.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But also. And because, I mean, I sort of felt this a little bit after I got to win a Tony award for taking me out. And I was expecting so many big things to happen after that. And you know, the phone not ringing was really painful. And like, I mean, I was fine. I have great opportunities, but like I expected, I had higher expectations for myself than what were. What were really happening. And it was. I had to stop being so hard on myself.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I same thing, won the Oscar. I'm at the shutters. They're going to do this Entertainment Weekly photo shoot the morning after, and I throw open the curtains, fully expecting the lawn to be made of emeralds.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

And, oh, is that Steven Spielberg kneeling on the lawn out there begging me to be in his next movie? You know, like, nothing, Nothing. None of that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I'm about to say, like, you're one of the people I dream of working with, and I hope you know that some people like smoke up your ass. But I was wondering if there's. Because you've worked with so many incredible people, if there are people that you dream of having jobs with or if it's just exciting to sort of see what happens.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

I mean, it's like the new ones. Todd Haynes. Right. It was not so new anymore. But the Todd Haynes that would be fun to see, what does he bring?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love him.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Kenneth Brown. I've always wanted to work with Kenneth Branagh. I think that'd be really lovely. I like his work as an actor and as a director. Just thrilled to get jobs, frankly.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same, same. Thank you for doing this with me.

[Marcia Gay Harden]

Yeah. I think this is such a sweet idea.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at Ocean prime in Beverly Hills, California. Next week on Dinners On Me. You know her from Friends, the Comeback and her upcoming series, no Good Deed, it's Lisa Kudrow. We talk about how a firing led her to play Phoebe on Friends, the private reunion she'll always remember and the show that was so good she forgot she was on it. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners On Me. Plus, as a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad free. Just click Try free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner is on Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Angela Vang. Sam Baer engineered this episode, Hansdale. She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tameka Balance Kolasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.