Noma Dumezweni — on subverting expectations as Hermione Granger, and acting opposite Alexander Skarsgard

Summary

Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson

Episode: Noma Dumezweni — On Subverting Expectations as Hermione Granger, and Acting Opposite Alexander Skarsgård

Release Date: September 23, 2025
Location: Sook, Fort Greene, Brooklyn
Guest: Noma Dumezweni
Host: Jesse Tyler Ferguson

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Overview

This episode features a candid, compassionate, and often hilarious dinner conversation between Jesse Tyler Ferguson and acclaimed actress Noma Dumezweni. Over Thai food in Brooklyn, they explore Noma’s remarkable journey—from her upbringing as the child of refugees, to landing the groundbreaking role of Hermione Granger on stage, to starring opposite Alexander Skarsgård in "Murderbot." The dialogue centers on themes of identity, resilience, artistic craft, family, and what it means to navigate Hollywood while defying preconceptions.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family, Parenting, and Big Life Moves

• Noma discusses her move from London to New York for "Harry Potter and the Cursed Child," at her then-11-year-old daughter's request. This decision ended up shaping both their lives for the better.
  • “She gave me the luck for the career I’ve had in this moment. Because I think with your kids... you follow them. Then everything happens.” (03:19, Noma)
• Jesse connects this to his own experience, now considering his children’s needs in career decisions.
  • “It seems like it’s always the right choice, obviously to put them first. But, like... with my gut, like, I’m like, oh, this one doesn’t feel right or that one does feel right.” (04:27, Jesse)

2. Noma’s Refugee Childhood and Perspective on Upheaval

• Noma reflects on her background as a child refugee from apartheid South Africa, and how relocating shaped her adaptability and comfort with change.
  • “I didn’t know that that was what was happening, because it’s the parents’ story... I have got friends who go—the idea of me being—I’m always fascinated when someone has stayed in the same house for, like, 20 years. I don’t understand that, but I’m in awe of it.” (07:35, Noma)
• She describes her mother’s sacrifices and her own journey finding storytelling and theater as a safe space.

3. The Power of Storytelling and Finding Theatre

• Youth theater at 13 was “saving grace” for Noma, offering belonging and expression.
  • “Thank God for youth theatre. You find your tribe, you find your tribe.” (10:54, Noma)
• Both recount feeling like old souls who found their people in the arts.
• Noma notes the healing legacy of her mother, assimilation, and the tension between blending in and standing out as an artist.

4. Embracing Aging & Shifting Life Chapters

• Both discuss how aging brings clarity and new opportunities.
  • “I love getting older. Because the vantage point now makes sense of my life.” (09:28, Noma)
  • “50 is complicated because that chapter of my life is done... but exciting in a way that, you know, 40 was.” (09:03, Jesse)

5. Big Breaks: “A Raisin in the Sun” & Olivier Award

• Jesse is surprised Noma had never read the play before performing.
  • “That was even considered—oh, this is the play that people talk about, ‘Raisin in the Sun.’ I’d never read.” (17:08, Noma)
• Noma explores embodying Ruth Younger, connecting deeply to the role despite cultural differences.
  • “It’s a fucking human story.” (17:43, Noma)

6. Theater Mishaps: Uma Thurman and the Press Release

• Humorous interlude: Jesse nearly appears as the headline star of "Raisin in the Sun" in a PR error.
  • “The headline of the press release is Jesse Tyler Ferguson and Uma Thurman. Headline Raisin and—Stop it.” (19:39, Jesse)
  • “Can you imagine? That’s the meta production coming out someone’s asshole.” (20:03, Noma)

7. Subverting Expectations as Hermione Granger

• Noma breaks through as an older, Black Hermione in "Cursed Child." She recalls her surprise at being cast, having told herself she was “too old and too dark-skinned.”
  • “I’d been called into a series of workshops... and this is the story I told myself. I’m too old and I’m too dark-skinned. I’m gonna go, they’re gonna use a mixed race young girl.” (24:01, Noma)
• She discusses the uproar among fans, the cultural power of film vs. theater, and the importance of diverse representation.
  • "The blackness thing, it's literally the cultural difference. And look, I can. In a weird way, the little mermaid’s like, oh, please, we're talking fish.” (23:58, Noma)
  • “The optics of me being an older woman, being an older Black woman who’s in her late forties, having this experience, was extraordinary. And I really leaned into that... My archetype is Maghra. My archetype is nurture. I was never gonna be Aphrodite, But I’m here.” (35:05, Noma)

8. Craft and Joy of Acting In Midlife

• Noma expresses gratitude for her late-blooming, spectacular career—her journey from “supporting actor in British theater” to leading roles in high-profile projects.
  • “I fucking love being at this age and feeling that it’s all new. And it has been the last eight years.” (34:35, Noma)
• She details the beauty of “tech day” in theater, and the thrill of not knowing what a new TV project will become.

9. Acting with Alexander Skarsgård and “Murderbot”

• Noma relishes being “in awe” of peers like Alexander Skarsgård and Nicole Kidman.
  • “Every time I watch Alex work, it’s like watching Nicole Kidman for the first time when I was doing ‘The Undoing’... you go, oh, it’s my line, it’s my line.” (31:36, Noma)
• She explains her journey with the quirky, sci-fi show "Murderbot," the unfamiliar newness of the genre, and the “lovely responsibility” of being present in meaningful projects.

10. Advice for the Next Generation and Dreaming Bigger

• Noma and Jesse reflect on the challenges of adolescence and the value of perseverance and hope.
  • “Wherever the pain is, please hold on. I am so in belief that we are here each to serve each other. And you may not know what you’re here for, but it literally could be you’re the person who smiles at somebody one morning and you’ve just changed their trajectory because they were feeling shit about themselves.” (09:28, Noma)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I know I’m a gay man in a woman’s body. I really do.” (00:16, Noma)
• “Thank God for youth theatre. You find your tribe.” (10:54, Noma)
• “At 50... I feel like I have a lot more life in me.” (09:03, Jesse)
• “It’s a fucking human story.” (17:43, Noma, on ‘Raisin in the Sun’)
• “I’m too old and I’m too dark-skinned. I’m gonna go, they’re gonna use a mixed race young girl.” (24:01, Noma, on Hermione)
• “The optics of me being an older Black woman who’s in her late 40s having this experience was extraordinary. And I really leaned into that.” (35:05, Noma)
• “Don’t take yourself seriously. Take the work seriously. All those clichés are true.” (35:05, Noma)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:01 – Opening greetings, connection over queer identity
• 02:25 – Noma on moving for Harry Potter and parenting in NYC
• 07:35 – Noma reflects on refugee childhood and adaptability
• 10:44 – The power of storytelling and discovering theater
• 17:00 – Noma on "A Raisin in the Sun" and her Olivier Award
• 19:39 – Jesse’s PR mishap story involving Uma Thurman
• 21:40 – Jesse and Noma reminisce about the magic of Harry Potter and theater
• 23:58 – Navigating backlash and representation as Hermione
• 31:36 – Acting with Alexander Skarsgård and “Murderbot”
• 34:35 – Embracing a flourishing career in midlife
• 38:38 – Advice for the next generation, dreaming beyond one’s limits
• 39:03 – Reflections on future chapters and gratitude

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Tone & Atmosphere

The episode is warm, irreverent, and deeply human—filled with laughter, mutual admiration, and real vulnerability. Noma’s humor, honesty, and rich storytelling shine throughout, while Jesse’s curiosity and relatability keep the conversation flowing naturally and intimately.

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Conclusion

This dinner conversation is equal parts insightful and joyful, offering listeners not just an inside look at Noma Dumezweni’s remarkable career—but also invaluable wisdom about following one’s heart, challenging expectations, healing through art, and daring to dream bigger, regardless of age or circumstance.

Transcript

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Hi, it's Jesse today on the show. You know her from prestige TV shows like Murderbot, the Undoing and the Watcher. It's Nomad Duma Zwini. I'd be you reincarnated. I think I'm you reincarnated as a white gayer.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And you know that shit happens. And I've always said, I know I'm a gay man in a woman's body. I really do.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

This is dinner's on Me. And I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. I am here back in my old neighborhood of Fort Greene, Brooklyn, waiting for Noma Dumizwini. I am such a fan of hers. I first saw her on stage in Harry Potter. She played Hermione Granger in the stage adaptation of Harry Potter in London and then later on Broadway. And I fell in love with this woman. And I've since watched her in incredible TV shows like the Undoing and Presumed Innocent. She's on Murderbot, which our previous guest, Alexandra Skarsgard, is also a star on.

[Noma Dumizulu]

It's real.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Hi.

[Noma Dumizulu]

It's real.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's real. It's really happening.

[Noma Dumizulu]

It's real.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I am so excited. I'm settling into a corner seat at Sook, which is Fort Greene's ultra cozy train car inspired Thai spot. This place did not exist when I was here 15 years ago, and I'm so happy it's here now. It makes me want to move back to this neighborhood, actually. It has these cute plush red booths, warm wood paneling, moody lighting, and it makes you feel like you've boarded an old school express bound for, I don't know, deliciousness, hopefully. I bet it's gonna be pretty delicious. So many of my friends have told me this place is amazing. The menu is a little cheeky. It's designed to look like a newspaper and serves up not just dishes, but stories. It details the ingredients, the regional origins, and a nod to Thailand's rich railway culture. It's a perfect place to press pause, pour a pandan coconut refresher.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Mmm.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And settle in with Noma. All right, let's get to the conversation.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I feel that we've met once briefly, but we haven't.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

We might have.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I think we've had a. Laughter but we've never met this.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, we've never met like this. We've never had time. I mean, I think the last time I saw you live was when you were in Harry Potter.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Oh, my God. Yes. That's my arrival into New York, probably.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, right.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Ended up staying because of the kid. Found a Great education.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

When you did Harry Potter, how old was your daughter?

[Noma Dumizulu]

She was 11.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

She must be going to college at.

[Noma Dumizulu]

This point this September. Well done, boy. She just graduated from high school. She starts pace at the end of this month.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Incredible.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yes. At the end of this month. She starts next week.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

How do you feel about that?

[Noma Dumizulu]

I'm so excited because it's been a journey in the sense that I only came in for Harry Potter for just that year and a half, as we all did. My kid with her dyslexia, found this extraordinary education that's very specific to New York. And we were just going to be there for the seven months as she, she'd finished primary school. So come September started, we're going to go in March. And then she asked in January of that year 2019, can I stay till the end of the year? So it's March, April, May, June, three more months. I was like, yeah, finish this bump. And I always go. She gave me the luck for the career I've had in this moment. Because I think with your kids, Sullivan and Beckett.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes.

[Noma Dumizulu]

That you, you follow them.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Then everything happens. And I remember a friend, years ago, Michael, saying, babies are good luck if we can just sit in that space, follow what they need. And my baby girl, now 18, I was like, oh, that really is true. I followed me and her dad, who are not together, you know, great co parents. Damien and I have gone, what does Cuiva need? And it was hard for him for her to stay in.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Where does Damian live?

[Noma Dumizulu]

He's in London.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah. Irish drummer, gorgeous human being. But it was, it was hard because we were here and we were going to come back and then we just gently stayed and we'd come back for holidays and I've just been rolling with her education.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's so interesting that you're having this conversation with me because I'm in a place right now where we're also discussing, like, what we want to do, but also what our kids need. And it's great advice to listen to. Kind of where they take you. Yes, yes. Because they will let you know. And really they are the most important.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thing right now. But like, I, I'm now at that place where I'm getting job offers for the first time that I'm really having to consider, like, because of the family.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yes.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And it seems like it's always the right choice, obviously to put them first. But, like, I feel like even with my gut, like, I'm like, oh, this one doesn't feel right or that one does feel right. And that one does feel like.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And I like to follow that now. I really started to trust that. Yes. Not at all. Hello. I'm very excited to be at your place right now.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Thank you, my darling.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Restaurant Staff]

So welcome in, guys.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Do you want to tell us anything about the menu and what we should be waiting? We have a lot of literature in front of us.

[Noma Dumizulu]

We have.

[Restaurant Staff]

So this terrace is going to take you to every part of Thailand to try all delicious food from every corner of the city. So of the country. So let me start with our, like, recommendation.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes, please.

[Restaurant Staff]

So we have the most famous here is gonna be home of the brancino curry custard, the first one on the menu. It's a flavor bomb.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And this is the photo of it, right?

[Restaurant Staff]

Yes, please.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Okay, that's. Yeah. Okay.

[Restaurant Staff]

Another one will be called stir fried chive pancake with a tamarind sauce. Chives.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I love this feel.

[Restaurant Staff]

So good. Can't go wrong.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Okay.

[Restaurant Staff]

And for the main, I would recommend the deep fried debone brancino. The second picture on the menu.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Okay. Where's that on here?

[Restaurant Staff]

This one right here.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Share. I'm gonna get. If I. If you don't mind, I'm gonna get whatever you want. Where's the little. The chive pancake.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And the pumpkin curry, of course. That'd be fantastic. With tofu.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm going to try this.

[Noma Dumizulu]

The.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'll try this. Hormak. You get to have one of the best.

[Noma Dumizulu]

What did you call me?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Sorry.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I love that expression. I stole that from RuPaul's Drag Race.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What did you call me?

[Noma Dumizulu]

What did you call me?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I stole everything from RuPaul's Drag Race, to be honest. So I'm gonna have that.

[Noma Dumizulu]

How'd you say hormones? Hormonk.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I said it right. Okay. And then I'm gonna do. I kind of want pad Su.

[Restaurant Staff]

Of course. That's the fry noodle.

[Noma Dumizulu]

When it's good, it's good, isn't it?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Restaurant Staff]

What kind of protein would you like?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'll do chicken.

[Restaurant Staff]

Chicken.

[Noma Dumizulu]

All right. Yeah.

[Restaurant Staff]

Would you like anything else?

[Noma Dumizulu]

Drink wise? Oh, for drinks. Yeah.

[Restaurant Staff]

I almost forgot. I like the Good morning, Brooklyn. It's Moscow with guava puree. If you don't. If you. If you want.

[Noma Dumizulu]

You're working. I'm not.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You go for it. I might have to.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Lovely afternoon in Brooklyn. I'll take that. I am so cheap when it comes to recommendations. You know what I'm saying? You like it? Great.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm going to do the Victoria Spritz the mocktail.

[Restaurant Staff]

Of course.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah, that did look good. I caught that first and went, oh, it's a mocktail. But that's fine. I get overwhelmed with menus.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That is a lot. That's a lot of literature.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It all looks incredible. And I cannot wait.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Thank you so much.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Wait. I'm trying to remember now. I have now. I'm trying to remember where we left off before.

[Noma Dumizulu]

So trying to flow with my child's career has been the best thing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Well, and also, I feel like this must be something you understand, because you were moved as a kid, as a refugee, when you were seven and one.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Didn'T know that that was what was happening, because it's the parents story. It's the parents story. Yes. Sorry, let me finish.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, no, no.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I do interrupt, my man.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm just, you know, making connections with you as a mother and you as a kid. I mean, like, I think, you know, there was probably something that you intuitively understood about picking up and moving and starting over.

[Noma Dumizulu]

It wasn't strange to me. It wasn't strange to me. Whereas I have got friends who go. The idea of me being. I'm always fascinated when someone has stayed in the same house for, like, 20 years. I don't understand that, but I'm in awe of it because I go, what is that energy? Because even now, as an adult, there is a sense of me going, oh, we've done this. I've done it now.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right?

[Noma Dumizulu]

I've done it. Okay, so where's next? And then the spirit starts looking for somewhere else. So to make my child move. I knew she'd be all right because I've had that experience. That's what I feel you're tying into.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Remember.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So your parents were refugees from. Where were you?

[Noma Dumizulu]

Well, they were in exile, so they'd escaped apartheid South Africa in 68. I was born in 69. I don't care telling my age. I've just turned 56. And I love it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love it. I've just turned 50 this year.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Stop it. It's a big one. And that was an affirmation. And that was an affirmation. Literally. The camera fell with your announcement. How are you feeling?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I feel good. I'm.

[Noma Dumizulu]

How was 40 for you? Because I think 40 sound for men. I'm saying, well, the thing is, when.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I turned 40, I was in the middle of Modern Family, and I was just like, I've got this career. I have a husband. Like, I was like, it's all settled now. 50 is complicated because that chapter of my life is done. I'm artistically, I've had a great year. Between the natural thing. Security is a different thing. I have kids now. It feels different, but exciting in a way that, you know, 40 was in. Like, I feel like I have a lot more life in me.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And it's that I was literally speaking to this lady this morning going, I love getting older. Because the vantage point now makes sense of my life. If that makes sense. It must. Yeah, it's those kind of things. I look at it as a scene. When you look back at how you were stitched in life, if I use that metaphor, and when you were young, you go, I want to change this. I want to change that. I want to actually sit in your life. And this is why I love getting older. And I suppose I'm trying to say, as I'm saying this right now to young people, I would like to go, please hold on. Wherever the pain is, please hold on. I am so in belief that we are here each to serve each other. And you may not know what you're here for, but it literally could be you're the person who smiles at somebody one morning and you've just changed their trajectory because they were feeling shit about themselves.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we return, Noma opens up about discovering theater as a child and landing her Olivier Award winning role. And I share a cringe story about me and Uma Thurman. Okay, be right back. And we're back with more dinners on me. Did you have desire at a very young age to be an artist?

[Noma Dumizulu]

No, but my mum would say something different. She says she remembers me about two or three. She said she caught me watching tv and I just. I can't remember what the. She can't remember the movie was, but I just sucked in. I just. And then I just wanted to watch stories. Not sports or anything like that, but just wanted to watch stories. But I don't remember that. Youth theater was my saving grace at 13. I always say that, thank God for I'm theater. You find your tribe, you find your tribe.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's exactly what I always said. It was my people.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah, I found my people. And school wasn't my people. It was academia. I'm like, that's not good for me.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

The condition incarnated. I think I'm you reincarnated as a white guy.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And you know that shit happens. And I've always said, I know I'm a gay man in a woman's body. I really do forgive me but it makes sense. We never know. Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Never know.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Oh, the afternoon Mezcal indeed. Good morning, Brooklyn. Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Good morning, Brooklyn. Thank you. Thanks.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Lemorie.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Gorgeous.

[Noma Dumizulu]

That looks great. Yes, go on. Sorry.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Early. But early on you had to draw two stories. But you.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I didn't realize how much so. Because I think stories were the safe space. So when. Where did it start? Actually, we were just doing. And my mum being a single mom, because at that point she left my dad and come to England. That's where we were, in England. And I was 7. My sister was 5, so let's say about 13. By that time she was working. And that was the rare grace. When I look back on how the world for refugees and immigrants and people claiming asylum is now, especially in Britain, the way it's going right now in America. When I look at Mama's story, arriving with two kids in 1977, and then transpose it to 20 years later, in 97, 30 years later, in 2007, that exact same story, I really believe. And then you transpose it 20, 30 years later. I would not be sitting opposite you right now. Because my mum had the lack of being able to work gently. We're in homeless families unit for that moment. But when she did. Let's find workshops for you to do. What should we do? She'd find out from people. They will always play structured. There were plays to do, games to make things. It was always crafty.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What did your mother do?

[Noma Dumizulu]

What did she do was. She was. I mean, I look at myself. The main career she had was a bookkeeper. But I suppose what my mother does, ultimately she's a healer and she's trying to heal her lineage of South Africa and all the things that went on for her story.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I say this because it's really interesting.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That she ended up back in that place where she fled at one point.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah. Because she could. And I mean that. And she lives in London. She lives in London. That's actually where she lives. But it's about helping people back home. But what was interesting for that she wanted. Her mum passed away years ago. And I met my grandmother for the first time when I was 33 years old for two weeks, which is extraordinary.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Wow.

[Noma Dumizulu]

But when there's a whole lot of healing and I think the. The indigenous communities, if I can put it that way, of South Africa, which is a lineage of the Sampi, boat, Xhosa, Zulu, all languages I don't speak at all. And I don't know. But I am fascinated by it because every country Has a bit of magic in it. It has a bit of storytelling. So in terms of the storytelling she had to do right now was to clear the space for her mother to open it up for the next generation. That's the imperative that she had for herself. It's 78, and I find that fascinating. For every immigrant story, it's about assimilation into the bigger culture. Sure. And so therefore, let's not shout. Let's not undermine. We are here. We're a unit. And that makes you move in the world in a different way. Maybe when you look at it does.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Also with that is, you know what. What needs to happen when you become an artist too, because then it's also. You're talking about blending in and, like, not making too much noise, but as an artist. Thank you.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yes. I'm gonna come back to that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, for sure.

[Restaurant Staff]

It's the fried chive pancake.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Oh, amazing. Chives.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Really, I think the picture was making it. I don't understand.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Lots of boobies.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Oh, my God. Lots of boobies. Tits up, darling.

[Restaurant Staff]

Container for the COVID Thank you very much. For the best taste, we recommend to just scoop it up all in one bite.

[Noma Dumizulu]

All in one bite. Okay, so whole flavor hit. Is that what it is? Amazing.

[Restaurant Staff]

Please enjoy.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Thank you so much. Lovely. Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But what I was gonna say is, like, when you're. As an artist, you know what you need to do. What you're tasked to do is open yourself up. And so it's really interesting, you know, you said you found theater around 13.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You know, to have those formative years as a kid, as a refugee, you know, maybe blending in a bit and keeping quiet. And then I'm so.

[Noma Dumizulu]

To keep everyone safe in the family. Yeah, exactly.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm fascinated by that discovery of self, when you found theater, as well as.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And a core part of yourself and realizing, oh, I like this world. I like these people. No one's judging me on how I look, because, of course, I now look different.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Noma Dumizulu]

From the majority. Having grown up in a place where I was the majority. Majority. All the different countries. I've got to try one of those. It's the mouth. It's the mouthful thing. Do it that way. No.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Use a spoon.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Is it? And the hit is gorgeous.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's gorgeous.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Okay, so I can't talk for a few minutes.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Isn't that incredible? Flavor bomb. Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I bet that works.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Delicious.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Tits ahoy. That's great.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Tits ahoy.

[Noma Dumizulu]

That was extraordinary.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I want to talk about Harry Potter because you brought it Up.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Okay.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And it is such an incredible moment in your career. I mean, well, to go back a little bit, it changed everything. But to go back a little bit. I mean, I didn't know that you had played Ruth Younger in Raisin and Son, which must have been such a huge moment for you. And it happened very early in your career, it seems.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Ish. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But, yeah, it was like kind of. It might be fair to say that it was like kind of the first big, like, validation. I mean, you want to Olivier for.

[Noma Dumizulu]

It, which I was extraordinary. That was even considered. Oh, this is the play that people talk about, Raising the Sun. I'd never read.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You had never read. I was.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I'd never read, but it was like an American classic. That's what I've heard. And when I got it. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So many. I mean, I experienced Raising the Sun first by reading it. It was something that would require reading in school.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I've since seen productions of it. What was it like to come to that piece of writing from the inside? From, like, excavating a character within it? I mean, I just read it on the page and it's obviously not my story. Yeah. Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

At all. But it's a fucking human story.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Human story.

[Noma Dumizulu]

So that play, the creating of it, the making of it, Ruth was so, for me, beautiful and so aligned in how I was feeling and so untethered in the world, but with this kind of structure of a life. But holding on to this young mum. I wasn't a mum then, with this husband with dreams, but they're not grounded dreams. And having to transpose. Having Novella there as the African American also made me feel very grounded because there is a partner gang. We have to absolutely honor this. Their emotional experience of playing her with. Just beautiful. When you have actors like Novella and Lennie James. Yeah, it's glorious. It's glorious.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I have to tell you a funny story. Eat while I tell you.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I will do good.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And have more of this if you want. So I did the Williamstown theater festival in 2019, and I did a play by Bess Wool. A new play by Bess Wool.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yes. Who's just. Is it Liberation? She's coming up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Great playwright.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Also in that season, Uma Thurman was doing a production of Ghosts, the Ibsen play. And also Robert o' Hara was directing a production of Raisin in the sun with my good friend Francois Baptiste. And my publicist had a press or, like, a press release about the season of Williamstown, and she was like, would you just Take a look at this really quick to make sure that it's okay. And I was like, I'm sure it's fine. I'm sure it's fine. It's whatever. It's like they're just announcing the season. And I thought, well, let me just take a look at it really quick. So I look at it and I just want to remind you, it's me in the bestable play, Uma Thurman and ghosts in Robert o' Hara's Raising the Sun. The headline of the press release is Jesse Tyler Ferguson and Uma Thurman. Headline Raisin and Stop it.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Stop it. All of a sudden.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Stop. Stop the presses.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Gone. You had a look at it. Thank God you had a bear.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And it was just imagine. So I called. I was like, are you glue? And they're like. They're like, it wasn't us. It was like. It was like an intern, like. And I was like, someone had one job. Read Raisin in the Sun. I mean, if you read. If you even know what Raisin in the sun is, you would know that this does not track.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Can you imagine? That's the meta production coming out someone's asshole. It's like, what the fuck is that?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Hilarious.

[Noma Dumizulu]

That is very hilarious.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Part of me wishes that it had gone to press. Can you imagine? It was a press release, so it hadn't actually gone to press yet. Isn't that funny?

[Noma Dumizulu]

Oh, my God. Something said, have a look at it. Yeah, have a look at that, darling.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I've only been torn. I've only run into Uma Thurman once since then. And I was like, did you know about this? And she's like, no. And I told her. She thought it was very funny.

[Noma Dumizulu]

That is very funny. But it is a Fuck off. The ignorance of that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I know.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And literally, can't you read? Can't you find out?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I know, I know. Anyway, now for a quick break, but don't go away. After the break. Noma tells me what it was like to originate the role of Hermione Granger in the play Harry Potter and the Cursed Child in her late 40s, and how she embraced this exciting moment in her career as a regular on prestige television. She gets to stare into Alexander Skarsgard's eyes, you guys, and get paid for it. Okay, be right back. And we're back with more dinners on me with Harry Potter, which is such an. I mean, that was. Yeah, I'm hearing more of it. I mean, Harry Potter was. It's obviously such a big ip and the books Are incredible. And I remember I was very invested in those books. I remember resisting them at first because I was like, they're kids books. And I see everyone reading them on the tube.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I was like. And I'd hear it on the radio.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes.

[Noma Dumizulu]

What is this story?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It was everywhere. And by the time the last ones came out, I was like the first person in line for books I was in. And then I watched the movies and I. And so when the play came out I was like. Part of me was like, okay, do.

[Noma Dumizulu]

They need to do another one? Yeah, do they need to do another one?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But what was so brilliant about it was it was these characters years later as adults.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And it was this beautiful. I mean it is a beautiful. It's still running, right? It's still running here. It's still running in London.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah. But they've got the two parter in London and one part now.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right. So I saw it when it was a two parter and it was so incredible. John Tiffany did such an incredible job. The music is unbelievable. It was one of the first plays to be nominated for best score, I.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Think, which was extraordinary. Yeah. Imogen Heat. Yes. Imogen Heap.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

One of the most stunning productions I've ever seen. My friend Sarah Hyland, who was Hailey, Ed's daughter. Ed's daughter. Ed plays Dumbledore. I think he just stopped playing it recently.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Recently, yes.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I remember like begging him to tell me how some of the stage magic was done and he wouldn't do it.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And that was a joy.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Hashtag keep the secrets.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh my God. But it was such an incredible production. It was such a. I remember watching.

[Noma Dumizulu]

It a year later once I finished. Yes, okay, now I'm going to watch it. Cuz I'd always been worried about them. I was going, can they really not see the magic?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And then you. Cuz your lights and blah blah, blah. And they'll also.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So you did eventually go and sit in the audience and watch it.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yeah. And it was extraordinary just because for me the magic was extraordinary. The lighting was extraordinary, the creativity. The one dance, it's. And I was like, oh, I wish I was young so I could be part of that. Yeah. So I know, I'm going, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's. I mean I love it when you fan over things that you've done. I mean it's. It was just stunning. And you know, your casting as Hermione was so brilliant. And also interesting. Interesting. I mean. Cause it caused a stir amongst Harry Potter fans. I mean and it sort of reminds Me of another piece of work that you got to be a part of with the Little Mermaid. And how, you know, when Hayley was cast as Ariel and there was an uproar about, like, why is she black?

[Noma Dumizulu]

The blackness thing, it's literally the cultural difference. And look, I can. In a weird way, the little merman's like, oh, please, we're talking fish. Yeah, please. And I mean that with absolute respect to all fish. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, it's okay. We can do all of it. Exactly. Interestingly, I understood and I felt as if I understood it before it hit that the fact that you're going to cast me and that, look, my joy as Hermione. As Hermione, but also as Noah the actor, is that I'd been called into a series of workshops the year before. And yet this is a story I told myself. I'm too old and I'm too dark skinned. I'm gonna go, they're gonna use a mixed race young girl. Because I could feel that in terms of conversations, what is the other in this world? And it's usually blackness is the other. And you could go any ethnic demographic in that space. But the Muggle child coming into this space, what does that look like? So totally changing it from there. Because I'm saying that because everyone who read the books before the films, you had your own version of Haman. You had your own version.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Well, the movies.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Yes. And then those movies set those characters. Yeah. Into place for all of us. And I remember my version of her. And my version of her was this freckled, bucktooth, frizzy haired, young white girl. But she was odd and quirky. And then you listen to different people going, oh, my God, we all had such different versions of her. So coming in to do the play of those workshops, John Tiffany going, we're going to be exploring that part because also he. I loved his inclusivity. I loved. And it was just, for me, just workshops and the different people who are coming in. But the core of the story, as most stories are, is whiteness that we have all been told. And again, I will say a lot of things have changed in the last five years about how we all see each other in relationship to each other. And this moment in time that's happening right around this shit show is absolutely making us have to push and go, who am I? And that's why I always go back to the soul thing. Who am I as a human being that I can let these things happen? Who, what, what, what negation of self and humanity do I have to put in place so that I can say no to these types of people? So it's interesting that the Muggle world and then the most extreme, the. The Malfoys, the most extreme wizards there is, that kind of. We don't like people who are not like us. Us. So what JK wrote was this most extraordinary fairy tale for all of us at that time. Absolutely. Oh, my God. That does look amazing. That looks amazing. Fabulous. Oh, that's comfort food all the way.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Thank you so much, darling. Brilliant.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Gorgeous.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And then after that, at the end of that workshop, I remember the reading going, okay. And I've said this before. I remember going, well, whoever gets this, they better fucking enjoy it. They better enjoy every second of it. Because this is fantastic. Just before the reading, and There's Colin Callender, J.K. allen, Sonia Friedman, our producers, everyone involved. And it was the most beautiful rehearsal room because it was having to keep the secrets. And at the end of that space, John, Tiffany and Sonja Friedman came up to me and said, you've got it. And I literally glitched in my head, huh, huh, huh. Because I'd absolutely let it go and put it. It's going to be somebody else's gig. That's. That's what I remember. All I remember doing is like, someone better enjoy it. We'll do the reading. And I'm going, of course I'm going to smash it and make people laugh.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Because I don't care. That thing is, I have no investment in it. And that's the. Another cliche of this life. The things you let go of. Don't hold on too tightly. Go, okay, we're here for you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What's interesting to me about what you just said is that the duality of knowing that you're gonna smash it, but also knowing that I'm not gonna get it. I'm not gonna get it.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And that's the story I told myself, because I just assumed as protection. Yeah, yes, yes. I think that's absolutely true. When I look at it now, it's like, no, I needed to do that protection because I lit the story I had told myself was, I'm too old and I'm too dark. And the way the world does is it's always, I'm just gonna dive in with them. I think there was. Forgive me if I've misquoted it horribly, but Tandy. Tandy Wynne Newton, it was an article or something years ago about realizing that she was the acceptable Face of blackness for Hollywood. And I remember going. Because I think it was a big realization for her in that moment. I was like, that's it. And when you understand that as an artist, you start playing, you start offsetting yourself for disappointment by telling yourself stories, if that makes sense for an actress like me at my age.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I think there's a lovely responsibility that you're holding with being aware of where we are in this time and where you sitting in this industry and what, you know, your presence in certain projects means. I think it doesn't have to be more than that. Just being aware of it and like clocking it and knowing like, and not taking for granted.

[Noma Dumizulu]

That's what I'm trying not to do. That's. I think that's what it was. That you've actually unpacked that for me right now is I don't want to take anything for granted in that moment. I'm going, am I taking this stuff for granted?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Because that's going to shift, right? Who knows with this business? Like you say, you don't know.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Never know.

[Noma Dumizulu]

No. And that's the joy, isn't it? That's what that 13 year old kid went, oh, where am I going to come in from? What dress am I going to wear? My favorite day in any show is tech. The first day of tech. Because it's the first day. I love rehearsals on tech. It's the first day you see costumes, you see every other department and the director has to hand it over to the tech team to run the show.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And I love that. And then you can sit and watch bits that you'll never see again from that moment.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

So get very romantic about that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love Murderbot. I started watching obviously because Alexander came on the show and I got to get a screener and so I only had the first two episodes available to me.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Odd little thing. I remember that wasn't the best odd little thing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What did you think when you. Because I mean, explain the premise a little bit in your words.

[Noma Dumizulu]

In my words, they're based on these books. By now I totally acknowledge the great Martha Wells called the Murderbot Diaries. I did not know there were books when I got the job because Paul and Chris Weitz, these amazing and wonderful directors. Oh, about a boy in American Pie. I've still never seen American Pie, but I finally watched About a Boy when we were filming Murder, but I went, oh, I get it. So the experience of making the show was from the first day I was like, I have fucking lucked out with these People as an actor doing TV and film. And then I get the first day. Extraordinary. Alexander is extraordinary. And for me, those last two episodes with him and David Espalchan, I just go, yeah, but watching Sabrina, actually, Tatiana, Tamara, all of us make story and share that space. All good people, all really good people. And then to watch the edited versions, I'm going, I have no idea. What I had in my head was a totally different thing because I went, I don't know what this is. I have never seen anything like this. And it's a sci fi comedy but low key kind of version of that. And it's holding on to this energy. What I do know, working on that gig, every time I watch Alex work, it's like watching Nicole Kidman for the first time when I was doing the Undoing. You know, you're doing scenes with them and you go, oh, it's my line, it's my line.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. You get caught up.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I know. Oh, no.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I'm so sorry.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's the greatest, it's the greatest honor when someone. You're that close. Yeah, yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

It's glorious.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I love being in awe of an actor. So I was in awe of Alexander, I was awe of David as Melton. I was in all my crew. And then this odd little thing comes out and I have no idea what it is. And it's 25 minutes per episode per week for 10 weeks. And then by the time we got all. Because I need, I really, I needed to see all of them to piece together. And then by the time we got to the last two episode, I sent a text message. Paul and Chris going, me, that was beautiful. Because you have to go on a journey. I like that. The form is new for me.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And I am a creature of heaven. But I had to go, okay, I have no idea what this is.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah. I adore it. I adore it. I feel that way all the time. I mean, when you take a leap of faith and you know, you don't know what it's gonna be and it's, I mean, it's a great privilege to be able to be a part of things like that that also unfolds slowly. And that also surprise you. I mean, there's so many times. But I feel like, you know, obviously I felt this way during modern family for 11 years. But like, you know, you be you, you find, you find stability in the familiar and like it becomes like, oh, this is a person. These are the pants I'm putting on every day. It's sometimes fun. To, like, put the pants on, but not know what the full outfit is until the very end. You know, that's a lovely way.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And then the full outfit is the other actors who come in that day. And you go, oh, we're gonna be doing that.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Love that. Feeling it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, how has it been as an actress now in your 50s, with this moment in this incredible kind of new chapter of.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I loved every second of it. And I think also that sense of being an older mom plays into that. And that journey from 37 to 47, those first 10 years ago, those were hard because within that, I split up from a relationship that had been from 19 through till 14. We were going to be there together. And this child arrives and I go, oh, no. There's a whole different world to be had. Life, life, life, life happens. And you, I promise you, before Harry Potter, this is the story I told myself. I will always be a supporting actor in British theater. I will never do any parts, but damn, I'm going to do it well. And if I can get to work at the national, at the Royal Shakespeare Company, at the Royal Court, at the Donmar, at the Amida, all these little touch points, if I can just have those experiences, I'm good. And then Harry Potter arrives in my 47th year, and I'm like, what the fuck? Again, she's supposed to be younger. All these stories one tells oneself. And then the truth is, when I look back on earlier days, I had set it up, but I didn't realize I'd set it up because I'd always go, oh, I can't wait to be an older actor. But I was like, oh, it's going to happen somewhere in the future. Because somehow, even if I'm just a supporting actor, I'll be able to have a house eventually. Because as a theater actor, you're not earning money to get that mortgage. You know what I mean? But if I can work towards that, it's going to be in my old age. I fucking love being at this age and feeling that it's all new. And it has been the last eight years. It's nine years. It was 2016 when we first did the show in London.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Harry Potter. Yeah, yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And it's, yeah, nine, ten years since the. The rehearsals, but I am a little kid inside and sometimes I have to remember I've got an older woman spotting, turning. But I love fun, I love lightness. I love. Because then you can focus on the shit. I mean, have fun. Don't take yourself seriously. Take the Work, Seriously, all those cliches are true. And therefore, why do you pull in people? Why do you have this? Why am I sitting here next to you right now having dinner with you? And when that came through from my PR people, God bless you, Luke, Oz and Rosie, oh, my God. I was like, shut the fuck up. I love that chef. You never know. But that sense of manifestation, if I can get everyone to do it a bit younger than I did. But there are also different stories for all of us because. So that thing again, am I going to be the only black person in all these shows? No, no. That's an experience you're having right now. I'm an older woman. That's an experience I'm having right now. I can't wait to be Jessica Tandy. How old was she when she won the Oscar? I'm not saying that's going to happen to me, but there is something about that life. You started off Streetcar Named Desire and then look at that. And we didn't know who you were because Vivian Lee took the film part. And that's what film does across theater. It does a different story and it goes to the masses in a different way. So when people had a problem with my version, seeming version of Hermione, it's because film had told a story. And that's the power of film, the narrative, that you can give it to the world. That was a huge learning curve within that, the optics of what that could be. And then I realized that the optics of me being an older woman, being an older black woman who's in her late 40s having this experience was extraordinary. Was extraordinary. And I really leaned into that because I realized. I realized I've known this, but I've actually finally, fundamentally understood about myself. My archetype is Maghra. My archetype is nurture. I was never gonna be Aphrodite, But I'm here. Do you know what I mean? I'm Yemaya. I'm all those. You know what I mean? There's those versions of. Of the mother energy. But I finally understood that of myself. And I think when I was young, I was like, but can't I be the sex? Oh, I'll never be the sex one. Oh, no, no, no, no. We have to trust. Excuse me. Without sounding simplistic. I get emotional about I love life. And I'm taking it from a kid who didn't want to be here at 15, 16. And I can see so many people who don't want to be here because there's so much Fucking fear. I am so cognizant of the fact that in my late 40s, now in my mid-50s, I've had the most extraordinary seven years of work. I could not. I did not see this when I was young.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love what you were saying about being at that very tender, vulnerable age of your teens and wanting things for yourself and being vulnerable and being in a place where it's hard to look too forward to the future. Even though you have so much life ahead of you at that age, it's very hard to see past the day that you're in.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Absolutely.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And also just what you said about dream big but know that it could be bigger. I think it's really.

[Noma Dumizulu]

That was huge for me. That was huge.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

And a space does open up.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I bet you once you've got Modern Family.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

All of a sudden your dreams changed.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Even just how am I gonna live? I can live in a different way. And that's what Harry Potter gave me.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Arriving in New York, you go, oh, I can afford to give my child an education that wouldn't have happened two years ago. It's that sliding doors of life. And so therefore, put it out there. Put it out there.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. Wow. You're having. I feel like you're on the brink of another, like, whole chapter with your daughter going to college. And it's. It's gonna be. I'm really excited to see where things take you.

[Noma Dumizulu]

Thank you for this. Thank you for this. You have no idea.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

This has fed my soul mate.

[Noma Dumizulu]

It's so.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Take all this home.

[Noma Dumizulu]

I'm so taking all this time because the kid is gonna be so excited when I get back.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at Sook in Fort Greene, Brooklyn, next week on Dinner's on Me. I know her as my girlfriend in the 1997 production of on the Town. And you know her as Big Boo on Orange Is the New Black. It's my longtime best friend, comedian and actor Lea DeLaria. We'll dive into how she started singing in jazz clubs at just seven years old, her groundbreaking appearance on the Arsenio hall show as the first openly gay comedian, and countless stories from our 30 year friendship, including one that involves Vanessa Williams and an embarrassing group chat mishap. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners on Me. Plus, as a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad free. Just click Try free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinners on Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode Hansdale. She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tameka Balance Kolasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.