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- [00:00]
A
You know those meals that just immediately take you somewhere? Like, you take one bite and suddenly you're transported to a backyard. Someone's manning the fryer, and everyone's waiting for a taste. That's exactly what Boar's Head has managed to do. But at your deli counter. New from Boar's Head, the Fryer's turkey breast has the taste of deep fried turkey. And I mean, it's perfectly seasoned. That golden, savory flavor. It really does that thing where one bite kind of takes over and you're like, oh, okay, this is what we're doing now. And the best part, you don't have to host anything. You don't have to fry anything. You don't have to politely ask someone else to handle the hot oil, which, frankly, I'm always happy to avoid. It's just there at the deli, ready to go. So if you're putting together a sandwich or just standing at the counter deciding what kind of day you're going to have, the Fryer's turkey breast is a pretty great choice. Discover the craftsmanship behind every bite at your local Boar's Head deli counter. Boar's Head. Committed to crafts since 1905, this episode
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B
is brought to you by Prime Obsession is in session. And this summer, Prime Originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus. Elle every year after the Love Hypothesis, Sterling Point and more, slow burns, second chances chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime.
- [01:31]
A
Hey, it's Jesse Tyler Ferguson. This week's guest is Jon Bernthal. You know him from the Walking Dead and the Punisher. And I know him as my old co star from my very first television show, the class, almost 20 years ago. Wow. He's currently making his Broadway debut in Dog Day Afternoon. We met up at Lumay in Manhattan's West Village for breakfast. Now, to get back into the conversation, you're pulling up a chair as we talk about the impactful stories John tells on his podc. The real ones. I was listening to your podcast with Jamie Lee Curtis. You're talking about not drinking. I also stopped drinking a few years ago. And just listening to her talk about sobriety was really impactful and beautiful and eloquent. And, you know, the reason I love it so much is because it's so, so authentically you. And I feel like coming from you just feels really right. You know, you have a very deep interest in people who live their lives and then deal with the consequence afterwards. I think that. I think that you've dealt with that in your own life. I think that your work reflects that. I think, you know, even in shows like the Punisher and certainly in Dog Day Afternoon, it's about, like, people who deal with consequences and from the choices that they make. And that podcast, you know, the fact that you're. You're. You're allowing a platform for so many people who have such deep stories that you and I could never even scratch the surface of is really impactful.
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B
I appreciate it, man. Look, I. I think that what's important. And again, it's like, Jesse, we're. We're. We're dads now, which is so crazy. You know what I mean? So crazy. But, like, that's what we are. And I think that, like, I just. When I think of my dad, like, my dad never gave up on me. Like, he never. And I gave him every reason to. Like, I. Like, the first time I ever, you know, like, got locked up, like, my dad waited outside of that jail until, you know, like, until I was set free. Like, he was out there the whole time, and, like, there was. Everybody in life was like, this kid's bad. Fuck this kid. Like, your decisions, like, these things that you do, they don't have to define you. And I do believe that there is, like, this. There's this possibility for folks that have, like, really been through it, who have really fucked up and done, like, some of the worst things. Like, I really believe, like, they. And they only are in the sole position to go find other people that either have done those things or who might do those things, and they're the only people that can, like, reach down into that. Yeah. Because it's like, look, I can. Look, like you're not preaching at me. You're not, like, you know that shit. Like, you know what rage is, you know what loss is, you know what hopelessness is. Like, you've been down that fucking road. Yeah. And, brother, like, let me tell you, you have worth. You have value. You can get out of this. Like, there's another way. There's a different way. And they'll only listen to those people because anybody else is like, brother, you don't know what I've been through. Like, you can't. You can't. And. And. And I also want everybody to know that it's never too late. Like, it's never too late. Like, it's never too late to have this, like, second chance to. To turn it all the fuck around. To, like, be of service, not just be selfish. And. And. And, you know, there's. There's this. This guy. You know, there's this guy Brett May that I met inside Calipatria State Prison. You know, you know, he's this beautiful guy. And, like, look, you know, like, I'll be honest. Like, you know, he went away for. For murder. He was part of an armed robbery, and there was a. There was a. A murder that took place. It went awry. He didn't pull the trigger. But the way it works in California, you know, if somebody dies in the middle of a crime, it's like, you all get life in prison. He got life without parole, you know, and he went away. And, you know, while he was there, he got his high school degree, his college degree, his law degree. He became a writer. He started this program called the LWOP program, which was this creative writing program where Calpatri used to be, one of the most deadly prisons in the entire country. And what he did is it was all, you know how it works, especially west, the Rockies is. It's all, you know, it's all the politics of prison is all done by race. And, you know, these LWOP guys, these guys with no chance, these guys, life without parole, they're some of the biggest sort of. They're able to do some of the worst dirt, some of the. Some of the most violent acts in prison because they're not getting out anyway, right? And since it's all divided by race, Right. So what this guy did, he started this creative writing program, and he broke all the racial boundaries. So it didn't matter what you were, you were lwop. Come with me. Come pray with us. Come learn with us. Come write with us, Come create with us. And this program, it cut down Calipatria's. It cut down Calpatria's violence. It became one of the most safest yards in the entire state. And this guy's in the system.
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A
He, like, he just.
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B
See and he just. He realized and put, like, beyond that, beyond that, it's not absolving it like somebody lost their life. Like, he went into someone's home and someone lost their life. But there is no one I have ever met in my life who is more associated and more. Has more intimacy with their own shame that understands the gravity of what they've done than this guy. And he's reflected on it, he's acted on it, he's created on it, he's reached out on it. He's made peace, he's made amends. On it to whatever degree you can. And he realizes that, like, he is in this place where he can help so many people and, like, he's ratcheted down. The potential for good in this guy is fucking boundless. And, you know, we did this podcast and we did advocate for him and he's out now and he was never supposed to get out and he's doing so much fucking good. But I think about things like that and it's like, you know, that's tricky territory. And Brett will tell you it's tricky territory, you know, but. But I do have to believe in it. And first and foremost, I gotta look at it as a dad because, like, our kids are gonna fuck up and we're gonna fuck up as parents. Like, we just are. And I just want them to know it's never too late to keep striving and to also. And to reach out and to understand everybody's coming from different circumstances, you know?
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A
Yeah. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I tell John my thoughts on his performance in Dog Day Afternoon and he how he's adjusting to the demanding schedule of being a Broadway performer. Okay, be right back. Right now, our family is living that New York theater life. I'm performing in a play right now called Tru where I get to play Truman Capote, and the kids are here with me and I'm working in the city, which is amazing. I love it so much. It also means I'm juggling a lot between rehearsal schedules, school drop offs, figuring out dinner in between shows, and then making everyone has what they need. It's hard enough just getting through the day, let alone planning ahead. And while we're here in New York, fully immersed in this, you know, this season of life, it got me thinking about how our place back home is just sitting empty. If you're going to be away for a while, like me, listing your space on Airbnb can be a great way to put your space to use and earn a little extra cash while you're gone. And the idea of doing it all by yourself, see, now that, that just feels like too much. That's where Airbnb's co host network comes in. You can partner with a local vetted co host who can handle all the behind the scenes details, so hosting feels manageable. Even when your schedule is as packed as mine might be, Co hosts can create your listing, manage reservations, handle guest communication, and even provide on site support. So you're free to focus on the busy season ahead. If you're ready to get started. Find a co host@airbnb.com host.
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B
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A
And we're back with more dinners on me. Not every actor is made for the stage. I mean, I have seen some of my favorite actors of all time who I love from their film work just not translate on stage. It's just not for everyone. Yeah, not everyone can do it. And you are a beast on stage, and you were made for the stage. Whether or not you ever want to do it again after this, like, is another thing. But, like, you are. You're one of those people that is made for the stage, and I hope you can feel that. But what I think what makes you right for the stage is exactly what you're saying, and it's that you are constantly looking for the perfection and not finding it and failing and willing to fail and willing to move past it. Because that's what I think a lot of the other actors who fail on stage, that's the trap they fall into is because they either get in their head when they fail or they don't allow themselves to fail. And you have to be able to have that. You can't. You'll never give a perfect performance on stage. And that's what's so brilliant about it, I think.
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B
I. Thank you, Jesse. It's very kind of you. And I do think that there's this insane. I'm just trying to, you know, as I get older and I think as I'm old, I'm not getting older, I'm just old. And, like, now I'm like, I'm just like a dad first. I'm always looking, like, what does the meaning, like, why, like, what is the pursuit? Like, what is this about? Like, why do you want to do these things? And this was just like a note, you know, Like, I fought like hell to do this. Like, I, like, had to do this. And. And I'm really glad that I'm doing it. But, yeah, like, what is. What is that thing? Because I do get in my head and I do get really hard on Myself when it doesn't work and you know, in front of a camera when there's a bad take, I'm like, you know, I'm so upset and I'm like, let's go. And it has to be, for some reason in my insane mind, it has to be like a perfect take. It never works. Like, oh, well, that moment worked and that. And you know, some people are like, no, no, it's fine. We'll figure it out in the edit. I'm like, that dude. Like, that is when you, like, you've
- [11:59]
A
done a few takes and like, I. I think we got it.
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B
We got it.
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A
We got something together. Spray diarrhea all over our movie.
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B
Yeah, man. And so it's like, I want it to happen on the day I want it, but. But it is this, like, insane sort of like, mining for getting better and like, following something and. And I, I know that that's like, you know, like the, like my. For me, like my, my, like, kind of philosophy in this for better for us. Thank you very much.
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A
Thank you.
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B
You know, I'm such a cheese dick, but I always talk about, like, the Moscow Art Theater and like, and. And like the Symbol of the seagull and like, you know, that play and like, chasing your dream and having it be, like, alive in front of you and like, you know, following it wherever it goes, not just trying to attain it or grasp it. And so there is no moment of arrival. There is no perfect performance, There is no perfect night. And you do constantly feel. You do.
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A
You do.
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B
I don't know that that makes for, like, a healthy, like, mindset, but it is that, like, you know, I do. I am in love with this. Like, every night you get this at bat. Every night you have this fight every night. And the one thing I know is that, you know, when you talk about actors that have done it and now that I'm doing it right now, like, you and you like my friend IO and like, and like Tessa and like these actors now who are like, making this leap, who don't necessarily have to, but they're doing it. I've got so much fucking respect for it. Like, you know, it's just, you know, I come from boxing and I'm always like, people who, like, get in the fucking ring and put up or shit. Like, you can talk all you want, you know, while you're hitting your bags or where you're hitting hand pads, but let's get in the ring and everyone's going to find out exactly who you. And like, very few people actually do it. You know, like, very few people actually compete that way. And I have so much respect for. For people that do it.
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A
Yeah. I mean, that's a perfect analogy, actually. And, like, I think in the acting world, like, theater is the ring. I mean, there's nowhere to hide. You have to. You have to work with the emotion that you have in the moment. You can't manufacture anything. The minute you manufacture an ounce of something, people sniff it out. They know you have to. And it's a traumatizing thing to put yourself through, to, like, go through. I mean, listen, some people do, you know, a lot of musical theater, and it's like, they just. They get to live in that world for two and a half hours. I mean, like, you know, with Dog Day Afternoon, I know it's a different place that you have to go to. And so, you know, it's. Your body doesn't always recognize when you know it's fake. And, like, you know, especially if you're doing it every night. I mean, I know with friends of mine who have done really heavy pieces, you know, that it really takes a toll on them, and they have a hard time recovering from a long run because, you know, their body's used to going through that trauma every night because they're putting themselves through it, willing.
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B
I don't even know about the recovery because you're always fucking there. Like, I just realized, like, the place that I am more than anywhere else right now is literally on that stage doing it. Like, that's kind of.
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A
Let me ask you this, because I know you've done theater before, so it's not, like, totally new to you, but the Broadway thing is a new thing. And obviously, at this level, it's a new thing. Yeah. I was talking to my friend Sarah Paulson about this when she was doing her show on Broadway. She and I were, like, getting. So the thing that infuriates me so much is people who think, like, oh, theater actors, you just work two hours a night, three hours a night, the
- [15:24]
B
rest of the day, My whole fucking. I mean, you've met my family, my barbarian friends and family. I mean, they all are just like, you don't really work. There's, like, definitely some truth to it. But, like, I don't know, man. I think I had that idea. I think I thought, yeah. Oh, wow. Well, I'm gonna have my days free. Like, you know, I'll be able to do whatever. You know, I'll be like, I haven't gone out. Like, this is as social as I get. I mean, this is it. You know what I mean? Like, and, like, you know, it is. It is, like, so fucking all encompassing.
- [15:57]
A
Yeah.
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B
And, you know, all day is like,
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A
kind of you're in preparation for it, and then you have those two show days where it's like you have to do it twice.
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B
Yeah.
- [16:06]
A
Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I catch John up on how my show Tru is going, and we dive into why it's so important to take big swings. Okay. Be right back. You never know who's going to show up on for the Love with Gin Hatmaker. From Mel Robbins to Tig Notaro, Kate Bowler to Stanley Tucci, I'm Jen Hatmaker. And every week, my dear friend Amy and I dive deep with incredible guests who make us laugh and cry and think a little bigger about life in the middle years. For the Love where great stories meet unforgettable people, follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back with more dinners on me. Now, just for some important context for later in this part of the conversation, when John refers to Esteban, he's talking about the actor who plays his lover Leon in Dog Day Afternoon. Now, if you haven't seen the film, John plays a bank robber who, spoiler alert, is robbing a bank to pay for his TR. Transgender partners feminization surgery. You've opened and you've settled into some. Some sort of a run. Are you enjoying the process? Are you, like, I don't know, are you? That's a great question because I, I mean, it depends on, obviously, I've, you know, when I met you, I had come from the theater world. So, like, I was this, you know, 20 years ago when we met. I had been doing musical theater, which is very different than, like, you know,
- [17:43]
B
I remember I came and saw you in Selling Beat.
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A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
It was amazing.
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A
But, you know, each show is different. In this, this play that I'm doing right now, it's just, it's just me. And so it's, it's just, it's me for 90 minutes as Truman Capote. And it's just, it's a lot to get through that 90 minutes to like, make it from the beginning to the end. And there are times where, like, I'm like, at the 45 minute mark, and I'm like, in my head, I'm like, I don't know if I can do this, but there's like a physically or everything, everything, everything. And there's a group of, you Know, paying people who are in this room just staring at you, watching you do it, as you're thinking, I don't know if I can do this. So this has been a hard one for me. So I. When you ask, you know, I asked you if you're enjoying the process, and to turn that question on me, like, I don't know if, like, enjoy is the right word, but I'm really fucking proud of myself for doing it.
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B
Beautiful.
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A
And I'm. I'm happy that I. I feel like it's exactly what I need to be doing right now. And it's stretching me in ways that. And scaring me in ways that I have.
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B
How's it scaring you?
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A
Just. It feels like. And I always feel like doing theater is, like, really being out there without a safety net. And in a way, like, I feel like not only am I not. I don't have a safety net right now, but I don't even really know how to be on the trapeze. Like, it feels like I'm really. It's like another level of danger. And I just feel like it's a big swing in a way that, you know, when you've done something and you probably have now felt a bit like this when you are known for doing one thing, and, you know, people who consume your work and the industry, you know, they all sort of, like, pigeonhole you into this thing, and you have to work overtime to. To counter program what people think of you.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Because, you know, as. I hate these words, that's why I'm putting them all in quotes. An artist, as an artist, you know, you want to expand and use all parts of yourself, but people discover that's like. That's why we're doing what we're doing. But, you know, not. People don't always let you do that, and sometimes you have to make the decision to show them that you can do that. And so that's. That's the position I'm in right now. I'm showing them that I can do the same. And it is a big swing. I mean, going out and, you know, playing human capote every night and having to maintain dish, my dear, for 90 minutes. My God, John.
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B
It's just. It's just.
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A
And, like, you know, like, starting that and people being like, oh, my God, he's gonna do that for 90 minutes. And, like, you're like, yeah. And then, you know, having to maintain it. It's really scary. Is there, like, am I Carol Channing right now, actually, or am I doing a good Truman Capote.
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B
Can I feel like the line between, between like really hitting it and really missing it.
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A
Yeah. So razor, so razor thin.
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B
And, and, and, and you feel from the audience when you're like, that was terrible because you, you just have bad nights.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And when you feel. And then we're like, oh, we didn't see that. I'm like, you fucking suck if you didn't see that. You don't know what the fuck.
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A
I don't think I can see it.
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B
Well, I mean, look, that's what everybody says, you know, but look, man, for me, I feel like I'm knocking on the door of fun sometimes.
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A
Yeah.
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B
You know, and, and there's like certain moments in it. I really relate to what you're saying. I'm not doing this. I think, look, I've always felt a little bit like an outsider. I've always felt like a little bit like I don't, you know, this thing that I've just. That in some ways I think I've been trying to shed, but in some ways I've been trying to clutch onto is this sort of like this athlete, like, boxer, fighter guy who's like trying to be an artist thing. And in a lot of ways it's like, you know, that's just where I feel really comfortable, where it's like, okay, there's all the, the fucking real artist and then there's me, but I'll just go in with all my heart and I'll show them. And like, I probably should have let that go a long time ago, but it's also something that I think gives me a little bit of strength and a little bit of like, it, like I feel comfortable there. And, and that's what this like, whole process of like kind of, you know, being able to do this show, like getting this show, like how it's been, like I had to fight for it. And so there's, there's part of that there, but I think now it's like taken on. It's taken on this totally different thing. I've never been strategic kind of career wise in that way. I've always been like, how do I work with the best people and the best stuff and the things that make my heart sing. But then it's essential for me to also, like, find deeper meaning. And I think for me in this, you know, as like a dad of two boys and, and because people associate me with these things, to be able to be who I am and really tell this kind of love story that looks different than what a lot of people associate love stories with or love stories that I would be a part of. That's the gift and that's the thing, that's my sword in this piece. That's the thing that I'm fighting for. And you know, I have to keep kind of like touching. I had like, like my baseball coach in college, he always said, like, you know, like, being at, being at the plate, right? Like, like baseball is such a psychological thing. They always say, like, think good thoughts up there, kid. Think good thoughts, right? Like being up there and being confident and like seeing the ball and like being like, I'm gonna hit this. What do you got? Like being positive, like the line between that and be like, I don't know what he's gonna throw. I can't hit the ball. I'm in my head, right? Like it's, it's like so thin and it's so much like being on that stage, like the second Jesse's in the audience and it can take you out so easily. And what this baseball coach said, he said when you start to spiral in that, like take a step out, like step, literally step out of the batter's box and remind yourself, like, why are you doing it in the first place? Like, like what, what made you love this game? Like, love of the fucking game. And I think that like, you know, for me, this love story and this thing that I have with Esteban going in is like such an opportunity in not like a preachy way and not like a political way, not like a spoon fed way, but to like really, to really like make a comment on people who have like not been able to be their true selves and like love who they want to love. And like a lot of the things feedback that has really mattered to me is folks that are close with me that have come to me and said like, I was at the player, my family member was at the player, this. And it really, it's like I haven't been able to kind of be who I truly am and love who I want to love. And I, it has been laid in with these pressures and I think for that in this kind of day and age with the sort of like brands of masculinity that have been out there that I'm kind of like a big, big, like I've participated in. Like there, there is like nothing wrong with, like, I, I believe part of masculinity for me is like being a protector, being a provider, being strong, being able to be proficient with weapons, to be able to handle myself physical. Like that that's like part of it for me, but also being kind, being sensitive, being open, being curious, be being, being completely and utterly tolerant. Hungry for dependence, debate. Hungry for folks that feel and think and, and love and worship differently than I do. Like that's, that's part of the deal, dude. That is essential part of the deal. And so it's not fun. But sometimes like when I'm down, I try to, I try to like, go back to that. Go back to that. I think it's that. And sorry this is so long. But the other part of it, Jesse, honestly, is that like I do feel and I think you, I mean, you know how much like trouble I used to, to get into as, I mean you, you saw me, you know, at the sort of end of like my really crazy times. But you know, this thing really did save my life. Like it did like it like, no question. And I'm really trying to pay homage to like that 18 year old kid who like found this thing, who this like teacher kind of said, hey, you could do this. And, and, and like led me on this other path that now like, like I have a wife, I have kids, I have few a family, I can put food on the table doing this unbelievable gift that, that we have, that we get paid to do what we love more than anything else. And I'm really trying to pay homage to that kid. So whenever I do get tired or whenever I do get frustrated or whenever these like landmines that have been a plenty on this show kind of blow up, I try to like, take the high road, put my head down, work through it, not let it, not let it like completely cripple me or like get me down or get me sad and just keep driving. And the light that I'm driving for is that, that other, is that higher thing, the thing that, you know, that Estevan is, you know that I'm doing with Estevan.
- [26:22]
A
So that was a little more from my conversation with Jon Bernthal. If you haven't heard our full conversation yet, make sure to check it out on Dinners On Me. This episode of Dinners On Me was recorded at Lumay in Manhattan's West Village. Next week on Dinners On Me. You know her from Desperate Housewives, the Lincoln Lawyer and only Murderers in the Building. It's Eva Longoria. We'll get into her sharp instincts both in front of and behind the camera. The journey from modeling to breakout roles to producer and director, and how she's redefined what it means to be a powerhouse in Hollywood. Dinners On Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans Dale, she composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tameka Balance Kolasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week. You didn't start a business just to keep the lights on. You're here to sell more today than yesterday. You're here to win. Lucky for you, Shopify built the best converting checkout on the planet. Like the just one tapping ridiculously fast acting, sky high sales stacking champion at checkouts. That's the good stuff right there. So if your business is in it to win it, win with Shopify. Start your free trial today@shopify.com win.