← Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson
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A
Hey, I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Here's a little side dish from this week's episode of Dinners on Me. This week's guest is Michael Kors. You know him as the American fashion designer behind one of the world's most recognizable brands. And as a fan favorite judge on Project Runway, we met up at Cafe Commerce in Manhattan's West Village. Now, to get back into the conversation, you're pulling up a chair as we talk about how Michael overcame some pretty serious career challenges. What would your advice be? I always ask people who have had long, successful careers for, you know, I know that there were moments of your career where you had, you know, things that weren't going well. Like, I know that there was, like, bankruptcy.
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C
Oh, yeah, chapter 11.
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A
Chapter 11.
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C
You name it, it happens.
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But then, you know, what I feel like is so hard to sometimes see in the moment is, you know, that opportunity to sort of shift perspective and like, okay, what do I need to do to see myself through this moment, which I think you did very well. Like taking advice from the industry, shifting to accessories. And, you know, I'm like, you know, 10 years later, you, you know, go public, and you're doing very well.
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C
It's night and day. It's night and day.
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A
I mean. But seeing yourself through scary moments.
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C
You know what I think the biggest thing, it's funny. And in fashion, it happens. And maybe film is the same. You know, in fashion, we never actually get to live in the time that we're. When we're working on a collection, we're never in the time we're in. Right. Because we're always ahead.
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A
The world doesn't have access to it. Yes. No.
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C
And we're working on something that people aren't going to see for quite some time. And to me, as I said before, until someone actually wears it, it's still not alive. The baby isn't born.
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A
So when you're doing what you creatively are loving doing, there's no. You have no sense of whether or not it's going to be something successful.
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C
You don't know. You know, I mean, to a certain degree, you can, of course, you know, say, well, with experience, I think this is going to work, or it won't work, but it is. You know, you are throwing spaghetti against the ceiling. Some of it'll stick, some of it won't. I think the biggest thing for me that has always worked was don't dwell on where you're at right now. Know that this will. I mean, all the cliches are true. This will pass.
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A
Yeah.
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C
What's next?
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A
Good and bad, by the way.
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C
Yes, absolutely. Oh, and don't dwell on the, like, oh, the hosannas. Yeah, because that'll pass. That'll also pass. No, but for sure. So the good thing about not being in your moment in fashion is that you know what you're working on, what's next. You're always looking. So. And I remember, you know, at the time thinking to myself, oh, you know, do I have to totally shift gears? You know, going into chapter 11 and having a financial difficulty? Do I have to shift my perspective or my point of view? Do I have to do something different? And my mom said to me, your greatest talent is ultimately your gut. You have to go with your gut. Don't second guess yourself. And she was right. She was really right. And know that, you know, it will turn and maybe, maybe it'll take you in a different direction, and that's okay, because life would be Boring if it didn't.
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A
Right.
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C
You know, and you're on to the next thing.
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A
Do you have a moment where you're like, if this doesn't work out, what will I do?
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C
Or really want to hear? Okay, you really want to hear a crazy thing about that? I. When I was teenager, taking acting classes, and I remember thinking to myself, I really can't sing. I'm the worst dancer in history. Not all gay men can dance. And terrible memorizing a script. And I also thought to myself, if I do this and it doesn't work, I will possibly turn out to be the worst waiter in history. But fashion was something that I always loved. And, I mean, I started drawing when I was 4 or 5, and I thought, if it doesn't work, I love being in a store. I love being in a store. I get a rush. And I always say, you know what? I'd be very happy working in a little shop, like, perfectly fine. I could be Romeo Michelle. Folding scarves would totally work for me. Not a problem. And so. And I still. I still get juiced, really. Like, going into our stores, meeting customers, going to department stores, doing appearances. I like people.
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A
Yeah.
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C
You know, and so I always thought that's a good thing. And a lot of designers, I think, you know, I always tell them, like, when they're starting out, I'm like, you've got to spend time talking to people, or else you're designing in this weird bubble. Bubble?
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Yeah.
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C
You know? Well, how do you do what you do unless you're in the world?
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A
Yeah.
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C
You know.
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A
Well, I think fashion and acting are both reflections of what are happening in society. You know, one is just something that you wear. Another thing is something you observe. But, like, I think. Yeah, I think being attuned to what is happening, you know, around you is paramount.
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C
We're sitting here, and here we are on the Upper east side, and, you know, people would, like. If you listen to Elaine Stritch singing here's to the Ladies for lunch.
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Yeah.
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C
You say, does that really happen anymore?
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It's literally happening right behind me.
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C
It is happening, Jesse. Right behind me. Right. And. And no, it's different, you know? No, not a piece of ballers. But, yes, it's still going on. And how has it shifted? How has it changed? And if you stay in your little bubble, you won't grow.
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Yeah.
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You know, and maybe what you're doing will only please you.
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Yeah. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Michael tells me about the LGBTQ history museum he's developing and some iconic, iconic New York City run ins with Amy Sedaris. Okay, be right back. Right now, our family is living that New York theater life. I'm performing in a play right now called Tru where I get to play Truman Capote. And the kids are here with me. And I'm working in the city, which is amazing. I love it so much. It also means I'm juggling a lot between rehearsal schedules, school drop offs, figuring out dinner in between shows, and then making sure everyone has what they need. It's hard just getting through the day, let alone planning ahead. And while we're here in New York, fully immersed in this, you know, this season of life, it got me thinking about how our place back home is just sitting empty. If you're going to be away for a while, like me, listing your space on Airbnb can be a great way to put your space to use and earn a little extra cash while you're gone. And the idea of doing it all by yourself, see, now that, that just feels like too much. That's where Airbnb's co host network comes in. You can partner with a local vetted co host who can handle all behind the scenes details, so hosting feels manageable. Even when your schedule is as packed as mine might be. Co hosts can create your listing, manage reservations, handle guests communication, and even provide on site support. So you're free to focus on the busy season ahead. If you're ready to get started, find a co host@airbnb.com host. Study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC.
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And we're back with more dinners on me.
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We are in the midst now when we started having a conversation about the museum, I of course was like, it's gonna be, you know how big I'm thinking it's gonna be, you know, enormous and, you know, steps. Yeah. So I look at the African American Museum in Washington, which initially was a small space. And we were there right after it opened. And I remember just standing there being knocked out by the stories that were being told in that building. And this is the beginning of just the first Step to tell our story.
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A
Well, it's like how your career started. You know, you want everything at the beginning. You want it all. You need to learn to, like, take the small steps and the small victories.
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C
Exactly, exactly the same and go step by step. And, you know, I do. I go back to the idea of it's easy to just agonize and complain.
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A
Yeah.
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C
But you know what? I don't want to be Pollyanna, but I'm a realistic Pollyanna. I think we all can do something that is proactive, that makes this world a better, better place for not just for us, but for future generations. Tell the story. You know, I mean, 20 year olds don't even know what stonewall means. They have no idea. No idea.
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Right.
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C
And so, you know, and you're, you're, you're a groundbreaker. You're a groundbreaker, you know, and when you think about what you brought to young people who are watching you, it's me watching Truman Capote, you know, on television or, you know, or gay characters on television. It was so, you know, you knew that Uncle Arthur on Bewitched was gay, but it wasn't publicly acknowledged. And then slowly we let people feel that they're part of the. Part of the story. It's remarkable. It's so important. Thank you.
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A
That means a lot.
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C
Thank you. Isn't this a light dessert? No, but like, do you know, once, I think we were here one night, we were four people, we ordered the cake and we couldn't finish it with four people. No way. And then I said to the waiter, I said, have you ever seen a person eat the cake? And he said, a woman. Oh, but that's what she had for dinner.
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That's all she had.
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C
That was her dinner.
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That's my lady.
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C
That's all she wanted.
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A
She's my. I was like, I. I was at ABCV a few days ago after rehearsal for Truman Capote, and I was at a table by myself. I was working on my script and Amy Sedaris came down next, sat down next to me. I don't know her super well, but we know each other a little bit. So he said hello, and she was waiting for a friend. So I was, you know, it was like awkward conversation. But again, like, you know, we know each other a little bit. And she's asking what I was working on saying. Truman Capote. And she's like, oh, you're so skinny. And you know, you know, what part of his life were you playing him? Was like in his 50s when he was, you know, a Bloated, alcoholic. Like, that's, you know, suspension disbelief. And so anyway, we have this conversation. Her friend ends up coming, sits down. They're having their. Their meal together. I'd order what I thought was going to be like maybe one or two chocolate chip cookies. A plate of cookies come out, and they put them down. I'm by myself. They put them down in front of me. And I'm praying to God Amy doesn't look over. And I see her sort of glance over, and I was like. I say, don't judge me. And she goes, oh, so you're trying to gain the weight.
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C
I love that. Yeah. She. Years and years ago, a magazine wanted to throw a dinner for me during Fashion Week. I think it was Glamour. And they said, who do you want to invite? And I said, make it eclectic. Make it fun. And they were like, well, you know, a little uptown, a little downtown, a little Brooklyn. I said, yeah, mix it all up. Yeah. So they sent me the guest list, and I said, oh, this looks great. And they said, is there anyone you'd like to meet who you think would be fun to add to the party? And I said, let's invite Amy Sedara. Perfect. So Amy came, and Amy looks around at the table, and she said, are these Park Avenue socialites? Am I one? I said, you are now officially, you are. I mean, she was.
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Isn't she great?
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I love.
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Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Michael tells me about his early life as a designer and why he decided to quit fashion school not even a year in. Okay, be right back.
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Fuel to start.
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C
Oh, let's go.
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A
And we're back with more dinners on Mean. Did you feel like being at FIT that you already sort of knew a lot of what was they were talking about? I assume you would, because that's why I dropped out.
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C
Right?
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A
You dropped out.
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C
That's what I left.
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About nine months.
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C
Yeah, Nine months.
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I can. I mean, I imagine you would, just because you were so immersed in it
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and I wanted to start working.
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Yeah.
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I remember sitting there thinking to myself, I know what I want to do.
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Right.
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C
I'm not trying to find myself.
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Why am I spinning my wheels?
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C
Why am I here? And I Remember, I had a teacher who I went to. She was a great professor. You know, we think about the teachers who were meaningful to us in our lives. And I said to her, I said, I'm really. I don't know what to do. I said, but I kind of think I should start working. Like, what do you think? And she looked at me and she said. She said, you have a point of view already, right? And she said, you will learn so much on the job.
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A
I mean, that's the same with acting, too. You know, you learn your most by just doing. Were you already, like, aware of, like, how to sew?
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C
Oh, God, no. I'm a disaster.
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A
Are you?
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C
I am.
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So how.
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C
Sewing is the Lucy Chocolate Factory. Really?
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No, no.
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C
It's disastrous. So interesting. Well, I have no patience.
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A
Okay.
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C
I have none.
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A
But you were able to.
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C
I could sketch up a storm.
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Okay, that's what I was gonna ask.
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C
I could sketch up a storm. And then I. I knew, you know, how I wanted clothes to fit, how I wanted things to be finished. You know, I started, you know, selling sketches when I was 16, so it was something that I had already done. But the sewing part. Oh, my. No, like, riotous. I mean, you could have played a young me. You would have been amazing playing a young me. Trying to thread an industrial sewing machine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, disastrous. Totally disastrous. Like, like, coming nuts.
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A
Love it.
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C
I love it. It was a riot.
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A
Where do you think your point of view came from? I mean, how would you have classified that?
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C
You know, I think, number one, we. I think we all are a product of our times. And, you know, I think that coming of age in the 70s was really a remarkable time for women and for men and how they engaged with fashion. That, you know, women were getting dressed for work. People cared about comfort, mobility. There was a simplicity to it that was necessary. You know, GQ would come, and I'd be like, oh, my God. Like, you know, give me a jumpsuit. Unzip down to the waist. I'm ready to go. There was a fluidity from how people looked at sexuality. Things changed. Suddenly it was like, oh, wow. Like, being gay is actually sort of trendy.
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A
Right?
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C
Like, this is actually, like, a good moment. So it's all that. But then, of course, I think the city itself inspired me always, and I very much. You know, I don't think there's any designer who isn't inspired by their family either in a good way or a bad way. Sure. Sometimes you want to avoid how they dressed, and sometimes you're inspired. And I Grew up with very opinionated women. Everyone was, quite frankly, too young. My mom had me very young, so. And then my aunts were, you know, almost like older sisters. And I saw the different fashion tribes. You know, my mom was sporty, very streamlined, very simple. Then I had an aunt who was full hippie, lived in the East Village. It was all of that. Then I had another aunt who was trendy. I mean, she wore a bikini top and hip huggers to my apartment. That's fine.
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A
Oh, my God. Yeah.
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I mean, she was. So I saw all the different characters. My grandmother was very over the top glam. And I kind of.
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A
Was there one that you were sort of drawn to? Like, if you had to like the mix.
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C
I always liked the mix, and I still like the mix because I think that that's human.
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Yeah.
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You know, I don't think any of us, if hopefully we're not so one dimensional that, to me it's sort of, you know, I like potato chips and I like caviar. You know, like, they're great together. Together, nothing could be better. So I like glamour, but then I'm casual.
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Yeah.
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So I like both. And it's always been that way for me.
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A
What were you like as a kid in New York? I mean, were you out? Were you. Were you dating? Were you?
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C
I was. So When I was 18, when I hit fit, it was like, okay, Game on. Game on.
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A
That's how I was at musical theater when I came to New York for musical theater school. Game on fully. Game on.
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C
Same now. And I mean, it's truly insane to think about this, but I didn't go to my high school prom. Instead, I went to Studio 54 for the first time. Incredible. I don't know why they let me in.
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A
How old were you?
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C
17. Okay.
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A
I mean, they're kind of letting people in around 18, right.
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C
They were cute. You were cute. You were young, dressed a little crazy, and then you went.
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Yeah.
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And I remember, like, looking around and thinking, this is it. This is it.
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A
Who'd you see there?
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C
Truman Fody.
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A
I was gonna say.
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Of course.
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I bet.
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C
Of course.
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Yeah.
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C
Actually, Truman in the DJ booth.
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Yeah. That's a part of the play. It's like he says, my favorite place is to sit in the DJ booth. I like to think about all the dead people who would have loved it. Truly lose A Trek in Cleopatra.
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C
Correct.
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Cole Porter. He would have loved it.
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C
Yeah. I actually think, you know, we would go in, we'd walk in, and we would arrive like it was. This is. By now, it's like me and my posse. And we would borrow each other's clothes because we always wanted a new outfit. And you'd walk in and we would, like, lay on the banquettes that had, like, reserved signs.
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A
Yeah.
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C
And we would lay there and they would walk over and say, excuse me, but this is reserved. And we'd be like, yes, we know. It's our table. And they'd be like, and you are. And we'd be like, we're models. We would always say, we're models. But, you know, you'd see Halston there, and you'd see Calvin Klein there, and you'd see Bianca Jagger, and you'd see Truman Capote. And it was just like the mix of people and then students, you know, I mean, it was. It was. That's what made. It was like going to a dinner party where the mix of people is so kind of electric. And I actually remember there was an Issey Miyake fashion Show at Studio 54, and the models came out with sparklers in their hair to the disco version of if My Friends Could See Me Now.
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A
Oh, my God, genius.
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C
And we were up in the balcony. We're all fashion students. Cheering, screaming, losing your minds. Losing our minds. We were like. And kind of. You thought to yourself, yeah, if they could see me now. You know, like, that song would come up and we would go nuts. Totally nuts. And most of the people who I met at school, the inner circle, we're all still friends. We stayed friends. You know, we went through it all together. And, you know, it was a remarkable entree. But, yeah, I mean, it was game, certainly game on when I went. I remember, though, going to acting school for my one year. I was 14. Yeah. And it was in the Village. And I remember it was sort of like handlebar mustaches, you know, guys. Guys with, you know, buzz cuts, big mustaches and all. And they're all checking us. Me and my best friend, the two of us going to acting class together, checking. And I remember thinking, God, these guys are so old.
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A
And they were probably 23, you know,
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C
but we were 14. So there was. There was fear, right? There was definitely fear. But 18, it was like, no, hit the ground running. Yeah.
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A
That's incredible.
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C
So I like both, and it's always been that way for me.
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A
That was more from my conversation with Michael Kors. If you haven't heard our full conversation yet, make sure to check it out on Dinners On Me. This episode of Dinners On Me was recorded at Cafe Commerce on Manhattan's Upper east side. Next week on Dinners On Me. You know him from the Big Bang Theory and he's currently on the Audacity on amc. It's Simon Helberg. We'll get into his scene stealing brilliance on the Big Bang Theory and his transition from sitcom stardom to more nuanced characters on prestige TV and film. Dinners on Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hansdale Chic composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balance Kolasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.
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