Vanessa Williams – on Proving Everyone Wrong, ‘Ugly Betty’ & Reinventing Herself

Summary

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Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson

Episode: Vanessa Williams – on Proving Everyone Wrong, ‘Ugly Betty’ & Reinventing Herself

Date: August 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this vibrant and candid episode, Jesse Tyler Ferguson sits down with the multi-hyphenate Vanessa Williams for a lively rooftop meal at Flute in London’s Soho. Vanessa shares her extraordinary journey—from becoming the first Black Miss America to starring in Ugly Betty and reinventing herself across pop, stage, and screen. The conversation dives deep into topics of resilience, reinvention, race, and the pressure of breaking barriers, all delivered with humor and warmth.

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Setting the Scene

• Location: Flute, Broadwick Hotel, Soho, London
• Atmosphere: Maximalist glam décor with a stunning terrace, currently featuring a Moroccan-inspired menu due to a hotel partnership (03:03).
• Opening Highlight: Jesse celebrates Vanessa’s iconic role as Wilhelmina Slater and her current turn as Miranda Priestly in the West End’s The Devil Wears Prada musical (02:36).

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Career & Breaking Into the Spotlight

• Being Perceived as an “Other”: Vanessa describes always feeling like an outsider who has to “prove herself” in every new arena—music, Broadway, and beyond (02:52, 06:07).
  • “They perceive me as like, well, she's a recording artist. Can she really do Broadway?... So, I've always had like, okay, just watch me. Just relax.” – Vanessa Williams (02:52)
• “Save the Best for Last”: A Hit with a Backstory: Vanessa reveals she was the third choice for the song, after Bette Midler and Barbra Streisand passed on it (05:47–06:10).
  • “The real story behind Save the Best for Last is like, I was third dibs on that show. So they gave it to Bette Midler, who passed. They gave it to Streisand, and she passed. And I was like, third one up. And I was like, I love it.” (05:47)
• Missed Musical Opportunities: She wryly recounts missing out on “Baby, Baby,” which went to Amy Grant due to a mix-up (07:02–08:01).
  • “I just want to tell you that [‘Baby, Baby’] was supposed to be for you, but Todd forgot to put it on the tape and give it to you, and we gave it to Amy. And I'm like, you motherfuck, Todd.” (07:56)

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2. Ugly Betty Era & Set Memories

• First Impressions: Jesse recalls being starstruck on the set, amazed by the show's hit status signs—like the chocolate fondue fountain (09:21–10:00).
• Ugly Betty’s Underdog Start: Vanessa shares they were underappreciated at first and only gained more attention after a Golden Globe win (09:54–11:11).
  • “When we first started ... we were a Friday night show. No one cared about us at all ... They still didn't care. And all of a sudden ... we had zero [funding].” (10:53)
• Behind the Scenes Camaraderie: Jessica and Octavia Spencer bonded as fans on set (12:24–13:00). Vanessa praises Judith Light’s nurturing, spiritual energy (13:13–14:03).
  • Jesse: “Judith ... knows every psychic on earth, every channeler.” (13:17)

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3. Miss America: Triumphs and Trials

• Surprising Start: Vanessa entered beauty pageants somewhat by accident, initially for scholarship funds (22:21–23:42).
• Breaking Barriers: Winning as the first Black Miss America brought both celebration and an immediate, heavy spotlight on her race (23:44–24:15).
  • “There had never been a black Miss America … there was no pressure, like, ‘Oh, I’m gonna make it.’ I was like, ‘We’ll see.’” – Vanessa (23:44)
• Backlash and Threats: Her family received death threats, hate mail, and threatening calls after her win (25:28–26:38).
  • “My parents had a… box that they would put all [the letters] … threatening to kill me.” (25:31)
• Pressure to Speak Out: She was asked about political and social issues constantly, even as a very young woman (27:15–27:31).
  • “They were like, ‘How do you feel about ERA?’ I said, ‘Yeah, women should be completely equal. Pay.’ ... So there was, you know, so I ruffled feathers from the get go.” (27:15)

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4. Controversy and Losing the Crown

• Crown Taken Away: Jesse and Vanessa discuss the infamous headline-grabbing scandal that led to her resignation (31:39–33:49).
  • Jesse: “Now, I think people who hear that story ... will be like, I cannot believe that that happened.” (31:49–31:57)
• Betrayal & Racism: She reflects on having her privacy violated and on experiencing racism from inside the pageant world (34:34–36:21).
  • “That's a whole nother layer of racism, you know … Like, oh, you're getting ready to slum it now with the black Miss America.” – Vanessa (35:37)
• Moving Forward with Resolve: Rather than let it end her hopes, Vanessa used the experience to fuel her persistence:
  • “It gave me the—I’m gonna prove it. They have no idea who I am.” – Vanessa (34:31–34:34)
• Obstacles Across All Genres: Even after her comeback, Williams had to fight bias in music and Broadway—with people always doubting her ability to cross disciplines (36:54–39:50).

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5. Theater & Reinvention

• Broadway Barriers: Williams describes industry gatekeeping and being turned down for roles despite her talent and commercial success (37:56–39:56).
  • Anecdote: Mike Nichols recalled Lee Gershwin’s refusal to cast Vanessa ("Over my dead body will that whore be in my show.") – Vanessa (38:48)
• Fun of Proving People Wrong: Vanessa admits she actually enjoys subverting expectations— “I always think it’s fun.” (39:56)
• Miranda Priestly vs. Wilhelmina Slater: She contrasts her two “boss” roles, revealing the subtle differences and her approach to crafting each character (40:22–41:43).
  • “Wilhelmina was so extra and so physically … like a fox, like a panther ... Whereas Miranda owns the power. It's in her body.” (41:06–41:41)
• Collaboration & Chemistry On Set: Vanessa credits Michael Urie’s wit with making Wilhelmina/Marc the show’s heart (42:19–43:54).
  • “We were always, like, doing these bits together … that chemistry … you cannot give me another assistant on the next episode. We have to stick with him.” (43:12–43:54)

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6. Humor, Humanity, and Moving Forward

• Aperol Spritz Mishap: The infamous “straight Aperol on ice” story—Vanessa accidentally drank just Aperol at Jesse's party, leading to an epic hangover (18:55–19:49).
• POTUS and Texting Hijinks: Jesse shares a hilarious story about a misdirected group text to a number he thought was Vanessa’s, culminating in years of messages to a stranger (45:58–47:13).
  • “Years I’ve been texting this person … Please show this exchange to Vanessa. So she goes into your dressing room … you’re laughing so hard …” (46:52)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Defying Expectations:
  • “I've always had, like, okay, just watch me. Just relax.” — Vanessa Williams (02:52)
• On Pageant Pressures & Firsts:
  • “There had never been a black Miss America ... What a detour.” — Vanessa Williams (23:44)
• On Public Controversy and Betrayal:
  • "I was caught in the middle, saying, okay, I did these as a teenager. No one's supposed to see them. There is no signed release. They shouldn't have been seen by anybody anyway. But that didn't... the betrayal didn't mean a thing because that was the news." — Vanessa Williams (33:49)
• On Industry Gatekeeping:
  • "Over my dead body will that whore be in my show." — Recapped by Vanessa Williams (38:48)
• On Turning Pain into Power:
  • “It gave me the—I’m gonna prove it. They have no idea who I am.” — Vanessa Williams (34:31)
• On Ugly Betty’s Impact:
  • “It was the best show I’ve ever done on television.” — Vanessa Williams (12:20)
• Aperol Spritz Mishap:
  • “You didn’t realize there was other ingredients involved in an Aperol spritz other than Aperol.” — Jesse Tyler Ferguson (19:39)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Vanessa’s Introduction & Early Career Perspective — 02:36–06:07
• “Save the Best for Last” Backstory — 05:47–06:10
• Musical Theater & Broadway Anxiety — 20:05–21:47; 36:54–41:41
• Ugly Betty Set Stories & Memories — 09:09–14:03
• Miss America Path and Experiences — 22:08–27:31
• Controversy & Crown Resignation — 31:39–36:51
• Racism Inside the Pageant World — 34:34–36:21
• Miranda Priestly vs. Wilhelmina Slater Discussion — 40:03–41:43
• Chemistry with Michael Urie on Ugly Betty — 42:19–43:54
• POTUS Group Text Story — 45:58–47:13
• Closing Gratitude and Affirmation — 47:32–47:43

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Tone & Takeaways

• The tone is open, witty, supportive, and unfiltered—full of behind-the-scenes details, resilience, and showbiz wisdom.
• Vanessa’s willingness to be vulnerable underscores the episode’s themes: the ongoing need to prove oneself, the pain and power in public adversity, and the importance of humor and community.
• Listeners are left with a sense of admiration for Vanessa’s tenacity—and inspired by her ability to keep surprising (and dazzling) the world.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

On days off from Jesus Christ Superstar in London this past summer, we would head out to the English countryside for a little family reset. The boys were in heaven. They were running around looking at farm animals getting as muddy as possible. Justin was, you know, thriving, taking runs in the morning, and I finally had an excuse to sit quietly with my Kindle for a few minutes without feeling guilty. Now, trips like this always remind me that vacations aren't exactly cheap. So here's something I really didn't think about until Airbn. While you're away, your home could actually be working for you. When you list it on Airbnb, it's such a practical way to bring a little extra income and put it towards your own travel plans. And if the idea of hosting sounds intimidating, Airbnb has this great thing called the Co Host Network. It's made up of experienced local hosts who can help manage your listing, take care of your home, and help your guests have a great stay while you're away so you can enjoy your vacation without worrying about what's going on back home. Find a co [e-mail] host Ever since Beckett and Sully came along, I swear, I swear I do more laundry every single day. I don't know where all these tiny clothes come from. I can't believe how many outfit changes they have during a day, but somehow the hamper is always full. One thing that has made that routine a little easier is Blueland's laundry tablets. They're pre measured so I don't have to deal with measuring detergent or lugging around one of those giant plastic jug. I just toss a tablet into the machine and let it do the work. And I like knowing the formula is microplastic free, made with plant and mineral based cleaning ingredients and hyperallergenic, which is always a plus when you got kids. The best part is they actually work. Whether it's food stains, playground dirt or whatever mystery mark showed up on a T shirt, our clothes come out clean. I've also become a big fan of their dishwasher tablets and toilet tablets. They're simple swaps that help cut down on plastic around the house. Blueland is a certified B Corp and Leaping Bunny Cruelty Free certified. Their formulas are EPA Safer Choice certified and many products have also earned Cradle to Cradle's Gold Material Health Certificate. If you're looking to make small changes in your routine, you can get 15% off your first [e-mail] JTF that's blueland.com JTF for 15% off your first order hey, it's Jesse.

Today on the show, you know her as the iconic Wilhelmina Slater on Ugly Betty. She's currently playing Miranda Priestly in the West End in the Devil Wears Prada musical. Listen, we're not gonna save the best for last today. We're gonna give it to you right now. It's Vanessa Williams.

[Vanessa Williams]

They perceive me as like, well, she's a recording artist. Can she really do Broadway? So it's always been like, okay, she's a Broadway person. Can she really do? So I've always had, like, okay, just watch me. Just relax.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

This is Dinner's on me. And I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Today I'm at the Flute, a rooftop restaurant in the Broadwick Hotel in London's Soho neighborhood. It was actually named because a flute maker used to work on the street. It's a whimsical spot. Decor is very maximalist glam with mirrored ceilings, animal print fabric, and palm frond carpet. It has a style stunning terrace with incredible views. Right now, there's a Moroccan bent to their menu because the iconic Marrakesh hotel, El Fin, is taking over the Flute. So I'm so excited to have this exclusive experience with Vanessa Williams, who is someone who only deserves the most VIP f experiences. Okay, she should be walking in any minute. Let's get to the conversation.

[Vanessa Williams]

Isn't this the cutest?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love this so much. It kind of reminds me of, well, like the Farmdale hotels a little bit.

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Like, have a super eclectic, like the Kit. Kit Kemp design. It's so nice. You're here all the time.

[Vanessa Williams]

I'm here all the time. I live about, I don't know, six minute walk from here.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes.

[Vanessa Williams]

So this is my Sunday spot and they have outdoor dining. So sun's out, cocktails, good Sunday brunch. Any of my friends that are coming in to see the show, it's like, that's my Sunday hang. Come. And that's it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love it.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Yeah. Hi.

[Vanessa Williams]

Look at this.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Welcome to the Brothers.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thank you.

[Vanessa Williams]

Thank you, Tiago.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

These are the menus for you today. Thank you, Tiago. Not a problem.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love that suit. My God, you're so chic here.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Very chic. So we're having a residency with Elfen, our partner hotel in Marrakech, which is very sexy, very new as well. So welcome to the. To Dubai. Is there anyone would like to order any drinks for now?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, all the Moroccan mint iced tea. Iced tea in England is such a rare thing. The fact that you say that you

have it is really impressive.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Yes, it's really good.

[Vanessa Williams]

Okay, I'll do that too. Yes, yes, yes.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Perfect. All right. Thank you so much.

[Vanessa Williams]

Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I didn't know this until I did some research, but Save the Best for Last was a very popular gravy commercial here.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes, Yes.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I had no idea.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know the name of the gravy. Bicester Gravy, I think.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I think so. I think it is.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's like a. It's like a. Was it an instant gravy or something? Or it's like a jar.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

And they just poured it on top of the meat on top of your

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Sunday roast, and that's how you save the best for last. That's the gravy's the last. I mean, do, like, people ever, like, reference that when they're talking about probably

[Vanessa Williams]

a specific age, you know? Yeah, but, you know, it's like squeeze

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

the Charmin that era.

[Vanessa Williams]

But the real story behind Save the Best for Last is like, I was third dibs on that show. So they gave it to Bette Midler, who passed. They gave it to Streisand, and she passed. And I was like, third one up. And I was like, I love it. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's iconic.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. So thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, interesting.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. Third. Yeah. Not even second.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And how do you, like, when something comes to you after they've offered it to other people? Do they tell you that?

[Vanessa Williams]

No, no, no, no.

[Narrator/Producer]

How did you find out?

[Vanessa Williams]

I found out after we were a gigantic hit and I became really good friends with the writers and Phil Galston said, just want you to know the other two had passed on it and. Yeah, so you were. Yeah, yeah. Phil Galston.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. And I feel like there's several songs that are. That have that history where they were written for a specific person and, like, someone else got to claim it.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. It's like, oh, this is lovely. And I had no idea it was gonna be the long lasting hit that it was, but I knew that it was one of those ear worms that I couldn't get out of my head. And I thought, oh, yeah, I can do this. Yeah. So you never.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

I wonder.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, my God, that's so interesting, that history that, like, I always think, like, if songs had ended up in someone else's hands, they might not have had that same impact, you know?

[Vanessa Williams]

True. Yeah, that's true. Keith Thomas was the producer who did it with me, and that was a huge hit with us. But then after we became, you know, he was known for. He did also Colors of the Wind and a lot of my big hits. And he had an assistant named Todd who worked in his studio. Assistant. So I went to do the next album with Keith down in Franklin, Tennessee. And again, it was a cassette. And like, here are the ones that Keith has written for you. And he left one of the songs off. And it was Baby, Baby, that Amy Grant ended up doing. And he said, I just want to tell you that was supposed to be for you, but Todd forgot to put it on the tape and give it to you, and we gave it to Amy. And I'm like, you motherfuck, Todd.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, wow. Have you ever sung it?

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

No.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You should put it in your show.

Tell that story and put it in the show.

[Vanessa Williams]

Baby. Baby.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Yeah, exactly.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That is incredible. Y love to hear that. That story and then hear you sing it.

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, iced tea. Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, my God. There's so much ice in it, too. An embarrassment. Riches.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Very fresh.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes. I love this. Thank you.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Thank you so much, so much. No problem. And we prepared also a selection of our beautiful menu.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

So dishes.

[Vanessa Williams]

All right.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

They'll be bringing on Faith. Perfect.

[Vanessa Williams]

Not for me.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Not for me. Perfect.

[Vanessa Williams]

Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Look at this.

[Vanessa Williams]

Ah, yes. Tuna tostada is amazing.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

I've got here the sweet potato. Thank you. And butternut squash salad and jabna cheese tomatoes.

[Vanessa Williams]

Gorgeous.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Enjoy.

[Vanessa Williams]

Thank you.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Beautiful. My God.

[Vanessa Williams]

Thank you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm trying to remember where we met. Was it doing the Hollywood Bowl?

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, you did betty, right? That was 09. Did you? 09, right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Because I had just finished doing the classes before Modern Family. It was right before Modern Family. Yeah, but we didn't have a scene together, did we?

[Vanessa Williams]

Did we meet on set?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I think I was introduced to you on set, but so briefly. I just remember I had just done the show called the Class and that had got canceled. And it did fine while it was on, but it was never something that people were throwing a ton of money on. Then I went to go to Ugly Betty, which was such a hit. And I remember coming up being on set and you all had that day a fondue fountain, like a chocolate fondue fountain. Literally. There was a table with spewing chocolate and fruits and vegetables. And like, that's like what I was walking into. I was like, oh, this is what being on a hit show looks like. There's literally a chocolate bamboo fountain.

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, that was then, though, because when we first started. So basically we were a Friday night show. No one cared about us at all. We went to the TCAs, the television critics, the panel that they have in Pasadena. And this is 2006. And we did our panel, and when we got down, the interviewers said to us, you know, this is the best thing that they have this season. And we were like, really? And they. Because they love the pilot.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

The pilot was great.

[Vanessa Williams]

The pilot was great. And so when we started, we were still. We were working at. I think we were not Radford. We were at.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You were at. I remember where you were. Cause that's where I shot Raleigh.

[Vanessa Williams]

Raleigh Studios.

[Narrator/Producer]

Right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right across from Paramount.

[Vanessa Williams]

Exactly.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

And I've got here the baked cinnamon beetroot salad and a belted chard broccolini with the frame beans. There you go. Enjoy.

[Vanessa Williams]

Good. Yeah. They did not provide breakfast for us when we got nominated and won the Golden Globe. I paid for, like a waffle. Like one of those pop up waffles. Yeah, yeah. Because we had zero. They still didn't care. And all of a sudden.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Really?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah. So then.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Cause you won the Golden Globe the first year.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. And America won. And then all of a sudden I was like. But up until then, Golden Globe is January. We started shooting in July.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So I think I was on season two. So that point, you were in season

two out in la or either that

or like the very end of season one.

[Vanessa Williams]

Okay.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

In la.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

Okay.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I was there in la. Before you moved to New York.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we had the writers strike. That was one of those shows that just obstacle after obstacle. But our audience loved us, but they kept moving us. And we finally. And it was the 2008 financial crisis, and, you know, we just kept chugging along, and then they finally just said no. Which is unfortunate.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And at that point was that sort of like. I mean, you were heartbroken. What's that?

[Vanessa Williams]

You were heartbroken.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I was gonna say.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. Cause we tried and tried to cut. We tried to cut corners. People expected our. You know, the visual value of what we would produce on a weekly basis was extraordinary. Yeah. And it just got too expensive. Yeah, yeah. For the time period.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

But. But it was the best show I've ever done on television.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It was the best experience. I remember just. It was such a happy set. I just remember being. It was one of those shows that I was also a fan of before I got to be on it. So I was watching it from the beginning and I was just like, so, so enamored with that world. Oh. You know who was on my episode was Octavia Spencer. Oh. Pre Oscar.

[Vanessa Williams]

And she was.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. And we were both like, so she. She and I were both, like, kind of just, like, fan girling over, like, being there and, like, watching America transform and see, you know, with the braces and all that stuff. I remember we're like, this is so cool. We're like.

[Vanessa Williams]

We're in the house.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Like.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Like, let's go look at the magazine. Like, we were just, like, running around the set. Yeah. It was so, so fun, and, like, she was just as excited as I was.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Wow.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. That's how I met her. Yeah. That's so funny. I mean, it was such a great experience in Judith Light. I got to do a scene with her and.

[Vanessa Williams]

And she's very Mother Earth, too, you would think. Yeah, she's very. She knows every psychic on earth, every channeler. She's like, I know them.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I had some. I had a surgery done. I don't know. This is, like, about a year ago now. Hernia surgery. I had a hiatal hernia. And so I was like, I'm going to get the surgery done. And she goes, tell me what room you're in, what day, what time, and I'm gonna send Reiki to you. I was like, what is it? She's like, do you know what Reiki is? Isn't that when they just kind of, like, lay hands over? Like, you're gonna send someone to do that? She's like, no, I'm just gonna send that energy to you.

[Vanessa Williams]

I was like, okay, so listen, you would never know.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You would never know. But I told her what room I was in, what time, and I healed very well. So, like, listen, she probably Reiki to me.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, she's amazing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Go like, this other side now.

[Vanessa Williams]

Okay.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

No, now. So now it's gone.

[Vanessa Williams]

Okay. No, got it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Vanessa takes us back to the unexpected path that led her to becoming Miss America, the pressure of being the first black woman to hold the title, and the incredible journey that followed. Okay, be right back.

[Narrator/Producer]

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[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

it's hard to know what kind of

[Narrator/Producer]

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[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

can always count on with Beckett and Sully if I make them a good sandwich, I know it's gonna get eaten. And honestly, when you're PA lunches day after day, that is a win. You want something your kids are excited about, but you also want to feel good about what you're sending them off with. That's why I love Boar's Head at the deli counter. Our favorites are freshly sliced and made with the quality I can count on. Their Maple Honey Ham and Maple Honey Turkey are made with premium whole cuts and crafted with 100% maple syrup and Grade A Golden Honey so you get great flavor along with quality protein to help fuel busy school days. Pair it with their American cheese made from a hand selected blend of 100% all natural cheddar and you've got a lunch that's simple, delicious and one they'll actually finish. For lunchtime Inspiration, visit boar's head.combacktoschool They've got lots of kid favorite ideas to make packing lunches a little easier. And for Boar's Head, head to your local deli counter. Sometimes the hardest part of dinner isn't cooking, it's realizing that at 5:45 that you forgot to plan dinner at all. You know, I spent a lot of time eating at incredible restaurants for the show, but at home I want something that's easy, reliable and actually tastes great. That's why I've been keeping my freezer stocked with Omaha Steaks. It's honestly like having a really good butcher on standby. Now lately we've been making the burgers and they have been fantastic. They're juicy, flavorful and taste like something you'd order at a really good neighborhood restaurant. If you've never tried Omaha Steaks, the burger perfection flight, it's a great place to start. For just $79.99 cents, you get 20 premium steak burgers made from five different cuts of steak, including filet mignon, New York strip, ribeye, brisket, and sirloin. So you can actually taste the differences between each one. Try the burger perfection [e-mail] today. That's 20 premium steak burgers for just $79.99. Plus get $35 off with the promo code Jesse. That's omahasteak.com, promo code Jesse for $35 off at checkout. Terms apply. See site for details. And we're back with more dinners on me.

Then after that, I mean, how I feel like I really got to know you was when we did the Hollywood bowl, we did a Sondheim concert together, and it was a kind of truncated experience. I think maybe we rehearsed seven days for that Sondheim Sonde.

[Vanessa Williams]

Sondheim. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Which you had already done in New York.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I was just an addition, I guess. They did sort of a truncated version of that show. And one of my favorite stories of you is when I had. I had the cast over to my house.

[Vanessa Williams]

Gorgeous house. Yes.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I don't.

[Narrator/Producer]

I'm not.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I'm no longer there at that house where we're in a different house now, but I love that house in Los Feliz. And we had cocktails on our patio, and we were serving aperol spritzes. Do you remember the story? And I. And you had never had an aperol spritz, I guess. And so I gave you an aperol spritz. Oh, this is delicious. I'm going to go make another one. And so you went inside and made another one, came back out. You're like, it's not as good as the one that you made, but it's fine. And then you had another one after that, and, like, we're all drinking. I was like, God, the aperol is really going fast. And you didn't realize that there was other ingredients involved in an aperol spritz other than aperol. Do you remember this?

[Vanessa Williams]

No.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You were just pouring aperol in ice, and I. Not forgetting the champagne and then the soda water.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, okay. Exactly.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And I was like, why is the aperol going so fast? And the next day you're like, I have the weirdest hangover. I was like, Cause you were drinking straight aperol.

[Vanessa Williams]

That's right. That's right. Oh, my God. That was a gorgeous day.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It was a great day.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

I've got the Bahana spice chip. Thank you. How's everything so far?

[Vanessa Williams]

Delicious.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, it's so good. You know, I'm a big fan of your Broadway career.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Because musical theater was always what that was. Your first love, that's what you kind of aspired to. That's what you went to school for. And when you were growing up, did you do a lot of musical theater in, like, school?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Were your parents musical at all?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, they were music teachers, I think

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I did know that.

[Vanessa Williams]

So, you know, I grew up looking at. When we went to Radio City every year for the Christmas show and the Easter show, so my mother would always plant these seeds. Well, you could do that and you can do that and you could, you know, So I knew it was. My parents never said, get a real job. Like, you're wasting your time. So that for me was fantastic. As long as you got your education, do what you want. And my plan was Syracuse. Well, my plan was Carnegie Mellon, which I got into, but we couldn't afford it. Then I got into nyu and they're like, the city's gonna be always there. No, then CalArts, and they're like, it's too far.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Syracuse is like, I mean, what great options.

[Vanessa Williams]

I know. I was.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

The school I went to was. I went to it because it was the only one that accepted me. You had four, like, to choose from, basically. I mean.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's incredible.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So you went to Syracuse?

[Vanessa Williams]

Went to Syracuse. In retrospect, it gave me the full on college. I went to the football games on Saturday. I had my drama classes and all the stuff that was required, but I also had that campus life up on the hill. Rah, rah. And it gave me. Aaron Sorkin was in my first. The first musical I did was a musical revue of Jimmy Van Heusen. And Aaron Sorkin was in that. He was a musical theater major at Syracuse, wasn't he?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Really?

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes. Musical theater major, Aaron Sorokin.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's so interesting.

[Vanessa Williams]

I had no idea. Yeah. And then obviously, transition huge.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Like West Wing and Two Good Men.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's gotta be so wild seeing people like that that have just come up in the industry and gone separate ways. Like, you're like, I remember you in Lil Abner. You know what I mean? I love that. That's so great.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

That's so great. And so, I mean, when you started getting involved in, like, beauty contests, was that something that was always something you wanted to do or was it just kind of came out of nowhere? Was it the scouts that found you or.

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, it's the local Syracuse pageant. Had A board. One of their friends was George Mazurlis, was a classmate of mine. And he's like, you know, my friends wanted to know whether you wanted to go out for the Miss Greater Syracuse patch. I was like, no, no. So I kept getting asked time and time again. Then I auditioned for Syracuse Stage. They were doing a production of Cyrano, and I auditioned for the Orange Girl. Got that. So I'm like, great. Equity points toward my card. And the show ended up not happening. So I had April free. And I called my mom. I go, you know, this pageant's happening in April. You know, do you think I should do it? She's like, is there scholarship money? I said, yeah. So I sang Being Good Isn't Good Enough from Hallelujah Baby. My friend played piano for me. So I won Miss Greater Syracuse, and I won, like, a plaque and a sash and a crown. And so then my next stop was July, Miss New York State, and won that. And then on my way to Atlantic City in September, and I'm supposed to come here for my junior year abroad, I, you know, all my deposits were down and all that stuff to come to London. Yeah. And I end up winning the whole thing. So.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What a detour.

[Vanessa Williams]

What a detour.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

What a crazy detour.

[Vanessa Williams]

And also, there had never been a black Miss America.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Why would that whole. I mean, that was the major story that came out of it, obviously, was like, you know, this is the first black Miss America.

[Vanessa Williams]

So there was no pressure, like, oh, I'm gonna make it. I was like, we'll see. But I wasn't gonna.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But then when. When you did win, it was like kind of like a cultural moment. I mean, it was like this. I mean, I watched like, your exit interview or whatever, and it was like, that's all she could talk about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah. And I think the runner up was also black.

[Vanessa Williams]

She was from New Jersey, her mom was black and dad was Italian.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

And then there were three other girls that were of color, so it was like the most. I think there was five of them altogether. So I guess the odds were pretty good that somebody was going to place in the top five, right? Yeah. Or the top. Yeah. But also 83, you would think. And again, I'm like, junior year, about to start my junior year in a New York school. I'd been exposed to everything. I was very liberal minded, because New York. And then, you know, talking to Deneen Graham, who is missing, and she's like, well, yeah, they. They burned a cross on my front lawn because I'm the first black Miss North Carolina and she has a beautiful ballerina. And it's like, what? Like, oh, yeah, you know, so there was that juxtaposition of.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You're getting a real cross section of the entire country at that moment.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

And you would think that it would be progressive at that moment because my parents lived through the civil rights era in the 60s. I was born the year that, you know, Kennedy was assassinated. So we thought, okay, we've grown, we've changed. And it's kind of back to, like, nothing's really changed. Has it really changed?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Was there. Did you feel backlash for your win?

[Vanessa Williams]

Oh, absolutely. There were death threats. My parents had a. Like a folder, like a box that they would put all. Because back then there was no email. So letters would be sent to my house threatening to kill me. People would call my parents number because it was listed in the phone book back in the day. Yeah. Because, you know, so people would call, you know, and make. So my parents had to deal with so much more than what I had to, because I didn't know. I had just had appearances every day, travel appearance, travel appearance. Plus my workload was double because not only was I doing the regular Miss America schedule, but, you know, naacp, Urban League, all of these black organizations that wanted to honor me and invite me to their events. So I was working hard. But, yeah, I look at my kids, and again, as a parent, you know, you look at them through the lens of like, oh, my God, this is what I was like when I was 20. And I look at my kids at 20, I go, how did I. How did I. How did I handle this? How did I get through this?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And with all that extra pressure on top of it, it's one thing to be on that path and having all those accolades and, you know, being given titles like that, but then on top of that, to have, you know, all that social impact as well. And then, you know, and like, what is my.

[Vanessa Williams]

What is my opinion? How do I feel? You know?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Vanessa Williams]

Because you're in a bubble. When you're in, you know, college, you're in a bubble.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Sure. And I know just from, like, you know, even now, like, I think, you know, people try and, like, with those pageants, people try and stay neutral politically, but, you know, I assume people expect you to voice opinions, and it's like, you're so young.

[Vanessa Williams]

I mean, I mean, they were like, how do you feel about era? I said, yeah, women should be completely equal. Pay.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right?

[Vanessa Williams]

That was, you know, I was pro choice and that was like a big, you know, I said people have the right to their own bodies. And yes, so there was, you know, so I ruffled feathers from the get go.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Vanessa opens up about the controversy that forced her to resign her Miss America crown. We talk about stepping into the iconic role of Miranda Priestly in the Devil Wears Prada on the West End. And I share an embarrassing group text story that may or may not involve the see you next Tuesday curse word. If you know, you know. Okay, be right back. Ever since Beckett and Sully came along, I swear, I swear I do more laundry every single day. I don't know where all these tiny clothes come from. I can't believe how many outfit changes they have during a day, but somehow the hamper is always full. One thing that has made that routine a little easier is Blueland's laundry tablets. They're pre measured so I don't have to deal with measuring detergent or lugging around one of those giant plastic jug. I just toss a tablet into the machine and let it do the work. And I like knowing the formula is microplastic free, made with plant and mineral based cleaning ingredients and hyperallergenic, which is always a plus when you got kids. The best part is they actually work. Whether it's food stains, playground dirt or whatever mystery mark showed up on a T shirt, our clothes come out clean. I've also become a big fan of their dishwasher tablets and toilet tablets. They're simple swaps that help cut down on plastic around the house. Blueland is a certified B corp and Leaping Bunny Cruelty free certified. Their formulas are EPA Safer choice certified and many products have also earned Cradle to Cradle's gold material health certificate. If you're looking to make small changes in your routine, you can get 15% off your first [e-mail] JTF that's blueland.com JTF for 15% off your first order. One thing I can always count on with Beckett and Sully, if I make them a good sandwich, I know it's going to get eaten. And honestly, when you're packing lunches day after day, that is a win. You want something your kids are excited about, but you also want to feel good about what you're sending them off with. That's why I love Boar's head at the deli counter. Our favorites are freshly sliced and made with the quality I can Count on their Maple Honey Ham and Maple Honey Turkey are made with premium whole cuts and crafted with 100% maple syrup. Grade A golden honey so you get great flavor along with quality protein to help fuel busy school days, pair it with their American cheese, made from a hand selected blend of 100% all natural cheddar and you've got a lunch that's simple, delicious, and one they'll actually finish. For lunchtime Inspiration, visit boar's head.combacktoschool. they've got lots of kid favorite ideas to make packing lunches a little easier. And for Boar's Head, head to your local deli counter. On days off from Jesus Christ Superstar in London this past summer, we would head out to the English countryside for a little family reset. The boys were in heaven. They were running around looking at farm animals, getting as muddy as possible. Justin was, you know, thriving, taking runs in the morning. And I, I finally had an excuse to sit quietly with my Kindle for a few minutes without feeling guilty. Now, trips like this always remind me that vacations aren't exactly cheap. So here's something I really didn't think Airbnb, while you're away, your home could actually be working for you. When you list it on Airbnb, it's such a practical way to bring a little extra income and put it towards your own travel plans. And if the idea of hosting sounds intimidating, Airbnb has this great thing called the Co Host Network. It's made up of experienced local hosts who can help manage your listing, take care of your home, and help your guests have a great stay while you're away so you can enjoy your vacation without worrying about what's going on back home. Find a co [e-mail] host. And we're back with more dinners on me.

I'm sure this thing that you get asked probably most about with anything is like, you know, the controversy of like, being to have your crown taken away. I mean, is that the resigning? Yeah, the resigning.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Which, you know, I feel like now. I think people who hear that story now will be like, I cannot believe that that happened.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. To put it in context, just plainly, Miss America was an ideal and it was the exact opposite of it was of nude pictures and pristine image. That's why it was such a big, big. And also the betrayal and like, you know, selling the pictures behind my back without a release, timing it. So, you know, this was all going on when I became famous.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right, Right.

[Vanessa Williams]

So that dastardly kind of Guccione, him, you Know, trying to help orchestrate the drama of it.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

All right.

[Vanessa Williams]

It obviously worked for him because it was the penultimate opportunity to bring down. I don't want to say an icon, but bring down someone who's been put

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

on a pedestal for sure.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also sell. It's always money. It always comes down to money. How can I make the biggest bang? And the money on the Miss America side was sponsors and sponsorship and image and all that stuff. So American Greetings, Clairol, Gillette, you know, all those corporate. Those corporate dolls that they rely on, you know, what do we do? So it's. So it always comes down to money. And of course, Penthouse made a slew of money on all of it. And I was caught in the middle saying, okay, I did these as a teenager. No one's supposed to see them. There is no signed release. They shouldn't have been seen by anybody anyway. But that didn't. The betrayal didn't mean a thing because that was the news.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right.

[Vanessa Williams]

And that, again, that news generates money.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right?

[Vanessa Williams]

So. And again, there was only, what, three, five stations on tv. Yeah. You know, so the news cycle was very tight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You know, when you. That happened to you when you were so young as, well, 21. So young. I mean, barely. Barely an adult.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Did you feel in the moment. Can you even remember if it felt like. Did it feel like you were like your career, was it gonna suffer from that?

[Vanessa Williams]

I didn't have a career, so that. So.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Well, then did you feel like it was, like, over before it even began or.

[Vanessa Williams]

It gave me the. I'm gonna prove it. They have no idea who I am.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

And being put in a bottle in a category, a box of, like a beauty queen, I was already fighting against that while I was Miss America. Because people assume that you're not smart, being from New York and having all these Southern girls that have their lives were to be Miss America. They've done little Miss this, that, whatever. So the fact that I'm an outsider who happenstance got involved, you had that judgment of, who is this outsider coming into our system? So there were a lot of hurdles that I had to start with in the very beginning, and in my book that I did with my mom. You have no idea. We were interviewing one of my. I had two chaperones. And when Midge, who was one of my chaperones, she was in the wings. And after I got crowned, and she's dead now, Marianne Mobley, who was Miss America, but she also from Alabama, she leaned over to Mitch and said, you ready to go to Harlem yet? And that was her first. Like, oh, you ready to, like, are you ready to slum it with somebody who's obviously from Harlem? I mean, it was that twist of, this is who you got. Are you ready to do it that way? And of course, I didn't find out about any of this until years later, but that perspective, that's a whole nother layer of racism, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, you're getting ready to slum it now with the black Miss America. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

So intense.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Mm.

[Vanessa Williams]

Mm.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But what I mean, what's really striking is how, I mean, it was the. That moment of controversy, and probably at the time, pain was like, the beginning of what became, like, such an incredible career. Like, that was to launch from that place to, like, your recording career and film and, like, you know, this amazing career on Broadway. And, like, there was a cultural moment around you as well that, like, they couldn't take away, even if, like.

[Vanessa Williams]

Right.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

They said, we're going to take this crown, this physical thing off your head.

[Vanessa Williams]

I mean, I only had six weeks go. To go. So it wasn't like. I, you know, it didn't happen. It happened at the end of July. I had my August, two weeks in August off, and I was going to give it up in September. So I had done everything, but every genre that I have gone into has been like, prove yourself. You're an outsider. So when I went into recording, it's like one hit wonder, guarantee. And then all of a sudden, it started to flourish and like, oh, okay. But then it's like, she's musical theater. She's not gonna be able to be a pop. You know, a pop star or have a pop career. Then you go from that to Broadway. And when I. When I. So Garth Strabinski had me come in for. And I had done other auditions again, scooting back to being judge. My first real Broadway audition was Tommy Tune wanted me to come in and replace Twiggy.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Okay, what was that? My one and only.

[Vanessa Williams]

My one and only.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

You're such a theater nerd.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I learned the tap, learned on the Gershwin. Mike Nichols was the director. Met with Mike. Yeah, met with Mike, came in, did the audition, and he told me the story back in 2008 when we were at the opening of west side Story, and he said, did I ever tell you that story? I finished my audition, I walk back and say hi to Mike, and he goes to Lee Gershwin, who's Ira Gershwin and owner of the whole Estate. Wasn't she terrific? He goes backstage, goes downstairs. The phone rings, and it's her saying, over my dead body will that whore be in my shop. So he told me that in 2008. I knew that I didn't get it. I had no idea the severity of the judgment.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Wow.

[Vanessa Williams]

So that was back in 1985. So I had no idea how bad the judgment was and how big the roadblocks were. So cut to 10 years later when I'm in 94, and Garth brings me in. And at this point, I'm a recording artist. Save the best for last. It's been a huge hit. Blah, blah, blah. I come in. So they only know me as a recording artist. I come in to sing. I sang. I didn't sing, Bill. I sang.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Is this for Showboat?

[Vanessa Williams]

This is for Showboat. And that's how he brought me in. Like, you might be able to do Showboat on Broadway because we're having some issues or whatever. And then it was like, do you want to do Kiss the Spider Woman? So I hadn't seen the show yet, and I go and see it, and I knew I could do it, but they perceived me as like, well, she's a recording artist. Can she really do Broadway? So it's always been like, okay, she's a Broadway person. Can she really do? So I've always had, like, okay, just watch me. Just relax.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Does it ever get exhausting to have to say that, or do you feel like it's fun to show people that you can do it?

[Vanessa Williams]

I always think it's fun. I always think it's fun. Yeah.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

How's everything?

[Vanessa Williams]

This is delicious. This is so good.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah. This is incredible. Sure. It hasn't been lost in yet. I'm sure so many people have made this comparison. But, you know, doing Wilhelmina and Ugly Buddy and then Miranda Priestly and Devil Wears Prada is kind of the same prototype. There's similarities in these two women.

[Vanessa Williams]

Adidas Christmas Carol.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yes.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

But, you know, histrionic. Exactly. Having seen, you know, Divorce Prada. You know, there's such a difference that you are bringing to Miranda Priestly. Was there something that you sort of took from Wilhelmina that you. You brought into Devil Rose Prada, or was it.

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, I think I certainly played to the sass of it all, especially when, like, we just had pride. I mean, of course I'm gonna camp it up as much as I can. So sometimes the strut. Sometimes. Because, again, Miranda Priestly is a character. So we're not literally doing a imitation of Anyone we know?

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right, right, right.

[Vanessa Williams]

So you. But Wilhelmina was so, so extra and so. Physically, like, I found her like a fox, like a panther. Like, you know, you never knew how she was gonna show up and how she would morph and what she would be trying to do to get her way. Whereas Miranda owns the power. Right. It's there. It's in her body. It's in her.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

She's not conniving in the way that Wilhelmina was.

[Vanessa Williams]

Exactly, exactly.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I mean, Wilhelmina was known for her incredible reads as well. You know, it's like Sue Sylvester. It's Megan Mulally and, well. And Grace and like, Willamette. Like, great reads. I mean, the writing on Ugly Betty was just so top notch.

[Vanessa Williams]

And you got. We got some of you. Abraham went to go to you.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Abraham Hickamock. Yes. In fact, we didn't have him for our first season because he stuck with Ugly Betty. And we. And when Ugly Betty finally finished, we got to have him on our show. Yeah. Such a great writer.

[Vanessa Williams]

Great writer.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love him so much.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

And you're, you know, obviously, you and Michael Urie had such incredible, incredible chemistry too.

[Vanessa Williams]

Love, love, love him and watch him progress and went to all his tiny little shows in between seasons and stuff. Like, I'm doing this here in these, you know, 99. Yeah. But just such an extraordinary talent. Amazing human being. Love his family.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

He adores you so much. I mean, even back then, like, he was, you know, he had just graduated from Juilliard, and I got to know him through a mutual friend, and. And he was always like, Vanessa Williams. I cannot believe that I. That the luck I have to work with her. And then, you know, the fact that he really owes a lot of his career to you because I think you really. But it's the talent fought for him to.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes. So when we did the pilot. We did the pilot and the whole thing for Wilhelmina, she was gonna fire every episode. She'd have a new episode, new assistant.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

And we were doing the Botox scene. And this is when Wilhelmina's in her. Shay is in her office, and Mark got a syringe. And, you know, so he's giving her Botox. And then he's like, can we leave a little bit in the syringe? And can I pretend that I do one? And I don't have enough, so I've got one eyebrow up. That is brilliant. Let's shoot that. And it was always like, let's do this. And we were, like, always, like, doing these Bits together. Like, I love it. I'll do this. And that chemistry. But also knowing that his brain was like, the comedy. Let's make it bigger.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

So it was really kind of a team effort, and I just saw his brilliance and, like, you cannot give me another assistant on the next episode. We have to.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Have to stick with him. Yeah, yeah. And then, of course, I can't. I'm gonna tell this story. I feel like I've talked about this with Leah, but it's just so good to me. I love it so much.

So.

I mean, one of my favorite things I've ever seen you do is potus. Yes. With this incredible cast. You played the first lady of the

[Vanessa Williams]

United States, which was funny back in the day.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Which was funny back in the day. It was. I know it hits a little too close to home today because it was a. Basically like a Trump figure that was in the office. It had this incredible cast. Leah Delaria, Rachel Dratch, Julie White, Susie Nakamura, Julianne Hough. I'm probably forgetting. I love Lilli Cooper.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yeah.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Incredible cast. First of all, I want to ask if any of the. Your. Your version of the first lady was inspired by anyone.

[Vanessa Williams]

No. But I did do a. I did Hillary's podcast before I did the show, so I was asking for tips. But she's more than just a first lady, obviously.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Of course.

Yeah.

[Vanessa Williams]

And she's also a neighbor of mine, so she was amazing.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Right, right, right, right, right. So when we were working together at the Hollywood bowl, we exchanged numbers, and I. I would text you occasionally, but I never would get a response. But it didn't bother me. I will say that right now. It never bothered. I was never, like, waiting for Vanessa to text me back, but I was always like. I would text you again and be like, oh, the last text I sent to hers right there. She never responded. She's busy. This happened for, like, a few years. I would text, text you. Just little things. Maybe some screenshots. I don't know, Maybe a photo. My kids, I don't know. Then we're doing POTUS and we're hanging out. I'm seeing you more often because I'm right across the street doing Take me out across the street. And for your last show, I send a group text to. Basically, I know the entire cast of Potatoes at this point. So I sent a group text to you all. The first line of your play was the C word. See you next Tuesday.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

It's spoken by Julie White. So I said, congratulations. Have a great last show. C word. And the next thing I see, everyone's like, comment, hahaha, that's so funny. Then I see Vanessa Williams has left the conversation. So I go, oh my God, I think I've offended Vanessa. So I privately text you and I say, vanessa, I'm so sorry. I was quoting the play, I'm so sorry if I offended you. This person responds back, this is not Vanessa Williams. Please stop texting me. Years I've been texting this person. So I have. I contact Leah delaria. I said, leah, please show this exchange to Vanessa. So she goes into your dressing room, shows you the six dates. You're laughing so hard, you're like, please give Jesse my right number. I think I just copied it down wrong.

No, no, no.

[Vanessa Williams]

I had two different phones.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, you had two different phones.

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Okay.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Well, the number I had that was no longer your number was now someone else's number.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes, yes, yes. That was hilarious.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Mortified. Mortified, yes. But I'm glad we cleared that up.

[Vanessa Williams]

Yes, yes, yes. And you can call me the C word anytime you like. Not offended, I promise.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I was only quoting a play, but I was also like, I don't think that it surprises me that she would be offended, but also that she was so, like, aggressive about like, I'm gonna leave this conversation, you know?

[Tiago (Restaurant Staff)]

Exactly.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Oh, God, I love that story so much. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of the story. I'm so happy you did this.

[Vanessa Williams]

Well, thank you so much. This was delicious.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

I love you.

[Vanessa Williams]

I love you too.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thanks for doing this.

[Vanessa Williams]

A wonderful.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Thanks for bringing me here and I will pay. Dinner's on me.

[Vanessa Williams]

Delish.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Delish.

This episode of Dinners On Me was recorded at flute on the rooftop of the Brodrick Hotel in Soho, London next week. You know her as Pam from the Office, co host of the hit podcast Office Ladies, and she's starring in the indie comedy Nimrods. It's Jenna Fisher. We talk about the years of rejection before landing the iconic role of Pam Beasley and why the Office continues to resonate with fans around the world. Plus, collaborating with her husband in this latest Green Day inspired film.

And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners on Me. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week

early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad free. Just click Try free at the top

of the Dinners on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial. Today.

[Narrator/Producer]

Dinners on Me is a production of

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch.

[Narrator/Producer]

Our showrunner is Joanna Clay.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Barrett engineered this episode. Hans Dale.

[Narrator/Producer]

She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison.

[Jesse Tyler Ferguson]

Special thanks to Tameka Balance Kolasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

Join me next week.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hi, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Are you looking for a beach read this summer? May I suggest your big wireless bill? It's got suspense, mystery, a slightly flat emotional arc and a shocking twist where you realize you've been overpaying the entire time. Fortunately, though, Mint's story is better. Every plan $15 a month. Month even. Unlimited. That's it. Happy ending, zero tears. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Vanessa Williams]

of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12. Month plan required $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy.

[Ryan Reynolds]

See terms.