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- [00:00]
Mike
If you have a dollar sign in your bio, you don't get it. You don't know what I'm talking about. That's not why I'm here. This studio is for the love of the game. Like, I love design. I'm obsessed with design. This is why I'm on the earth. So the fact that I get to make a living out of it is a bonus. That's not why I'm doing it.
- [00:19]
Rid
Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Rid, and this is where designers never stop learning. This week's episode is with Mike and Cara from Smith Indiction, who you might be familiar with because they're the ones who did the Perplexity brand identity. So when I had Henry and Fee from Perplexity on, they talked a bunch about their experience collaborating with them. So this episode is going to be a deep dive into product strategy, branding, positioning, and Mike even shares his experience bringing brands to life using AI but even if you don't gravitate toward branding, this is just a fun episode. So I'm really excited to share it with you today. And to start, I wanted to get their perspective on the current landscape for design agencies.
- [01:06]
Mike
The landscape right now is really, really kind of fractured, I would say, like, there's the never AI ers, there's the all aiers, and then there's the people like us where we're just like, we'll see what happens. We'll see what shakes out at us. You know what I mean?
- [01:20]
Cara
Eight months ago, I felt like the whole world was waiting to see what AI was actually going to be capable of. There was so much hype, but nobody could actually picture what it was actually going to do. So nobody wanted to hire branding studios or design studios because they were like, maybe in two months I won't need that and it will be so silly that I paid at the top of the market.
- [01:38]
Mike
Yeah.
- [01:39]
Cara
And now they sort of realized, like, oh, yeah, okay, a lot of those things are going to work their way in, but we can't actually just like, I is not tomorrow going to be able to build me a brand or tomorrow take over my entire marketing stream? So I feel like we kind of reached the edge of the like, okay, those are tools that we're going to keep using.
- [01:54]
Rid
What about subscription agencies and this push towards more, like, productization? Like, nice. How much do you care about that of stuff as a blip on the radar? How do you see that fitting into the broader industry?
- [02:06]
Cara
Hot takes immediately.
- [02:07]
Mike
Yeah, immediately hot takes. I'm never going to knock the way Someone works. Because, hey, if you want to be laying out banner ads, keep going, laying out those banner ads. And I hope that you make a lot of money doing that. But when I have seen so many of them, just this year being like, I'm realizing that subscriptions is not the right move for me, and I'm going back to pricing every project. And I was just like, oh, well, well, well, the subscription model works. It's called a retainer. It's worked for years and years and years. Like, all of Mad Men is based on the Lucky Strike retainer. That's the whole thing. So it's not new. The wording around it has become new and fresh and using something like subscription. But I think that's something that's really interesting about. The subscription thing is just like Netflix. Like, the second it stops working for you, you cut it off. It's gone immediately. You don't think about it. It's not a human. And I hope to think that our relationships are a little bit deeper than that with our clients and a little bit more kind of conversational. A lot of the times when we pitch people, we're like, most of our clients are now our best friends. And I know that's like, a bad way to do business, but, like, that's just who we are, and that's who we. We love. We love to talk to people like they're our friends. And, you know, we've done work for coffee shops where we go in and then they let our daughter go behind and, like, pour her own ice cream. Those are the kind of people that I want to be tied with. And I think that there's a beauty in, like, the collective. I'm a designer, you have a business. Together we are super powerful. And I think that that is much more special than you have a business. You have a need, and then I fulfill that need.
- [03:52]
Rid
Let's go a little bit deeper on that, then. So, like, how would you describe the type of company that you two want to create? And then how does that influence the way that you position yourself in this market?
- [04:03]
Cara
Yeah. Okay, I'll start, because I feel like you could talk a long time and I won't do it. I think that the. If you compare us to, like, a subscription model, it's interesting because it feels like the interesting thing about a subscription model isn't actually the design. It's not what you're getting. It's like, you don't know how to use this design program. So I'll do the thing. Not because I'm Bringing like my level of expertise or thought to it. I'm just doing it. And that's kind of what it's about. It's a business model more than it is like we're going to bring this level of craft and we try to set our studio apart because people come to us for the way that we design, for the way that we think, for that like level of thought that we put into things as opposed to like, I just don't know how to use Illustrator. Can you do it for me?
- [04:42]
Mike
We worked really hard when Kara first joined to make like our tagline of thoughtful identities for imaginative clients. And like thoughtful was like the main thing. We were like, that's the number one word that we are going to structure our whole business around is this idea of being thoughtful. And then we also toss in imaginative clients because we're like, sure, we can be thoughtful for a bunch of banks, you know what I mean? But they're not imaginative. We want to work with the people that are pushing the boundary, that are doing things a little bit differently, that are not afraid of like having fun in their brand, not afraid of having like excitement in their brand. And that was so, so important to the foundation of who we were.
- [05:21]
Cara
Twice this year we've had clients literally ask us, we said, what are you looking for? And they said, I want it to be risky. And Mike is like, that is my ideal client. I want somebody who's not afraid. They know what they're doing. They know that the quality of what they are delivering is so high. That brand is supplemental. It's not meant to save them. It's not meant to be the hero that takes their mediocre product and makes people want it.
- [05:44]
Rid
Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. So this new product called Genway has totally changed the way that I do research. It uses AI powered interviewers to help you gather rich qualitative data at basically an infinite scale. You can even interview people while they use your Figma prototypes. Just tell the AI what you're hoping to test and it will have a dynamic conversation with each person as they're going through your prototype. You should see the quality of the follow up questions that the AI asks. It is really something. And the best part is they just introduced a self serve onboarding so you can get started right away. And they're even offering two months free for Dive Club listeners. Just head to Dive Club Genway to get that special offer that's G E N W a Y. If you've been listening to this show for a bit then. You've heard me profess my love for Raycast multiple times by now. So I want to highlight a couple people who started using Raycast after hearing about it on Dive Club. The first is Rex Harris. He says Raycast is the tool that most shapes how he uses his computer and keeps him in flow. The next is Greg Hunton. He called it a life changing product and says every time he pulls a thread on something in Raycast, it wildly deepens the power and experience of using his computer. I couldn't agree more. And I can't recommend Raycast enough. It's totally free to start. Just head to Dive Club Raycast to check it out. That's R A Y C A S T. Okay, now on to the episode. All right, let's talk about the thoughtfulness that you bring to the table then. Because something that I read that you wrote was strategy and positioning are how cool logos get made. So let's start at the ground level and maybe you could talk a little bit about what it takes to lay the best possible positioning foundation for your work.
- [07:34]
Cara
It takes being able to really think from the perspective of the potential client, you know, the potential user who's actually using this and what is their mindset and what are they actually looking for. Really good strategy and positioning requires you to really think, what is the true challenge of the person who's sitting down and what do they actually want out of it? Not just how do I get them to buy a thing they don't want, but like, what do they actually want? And then how do I tie that back to what I'm offering? Because if you sell somebody something that they don't want, they will never buy it again. You don't actually have a loyal customer. Your brand actually isn't good. That was just a sale. It wasn't a brand.
- [08:08]
Mike
Yeah, like, for us, it's like we buy everything from Topo. Like, if I'm like, oh, I need a new water bottle, like, Topo is the first place I go. Like, oh, I need a new book pack, book bag, Topo. First place I go. Then I go everywhere else. And that is such a good definition of brand that I think is so, so cool that like, before I even look at anything else, I'm just like, let me see where they're at right now. And I think that if you can hit that stride, that's a really good mode to be in.
- [08:38]
Rid
How do you reverse engineer what Topo was able to do? Because I'm actually the same way. Like, I Lived in Boulder for a long time. Like, Topo is the coolest brand. But like, what do you draw from that in your own work?
- [08:48]
Cara
Why are they good?
- [08:49]
Mike
Yeah, why are they? Why am I like, sucked into their.
- [08:52]
Cara
Because they have color.
- [08:53]
Mike
They have.
- [08:54]
Cara
Because they're quality and they have color. And they like saw this hole in the market of like, the colors are terrible. Like, most hiking here, the colors are awful. Like, you go to look at like really quality hiking backpacks and there's like, did you want bright purple? That's the girl one. Or like a hideous red for the boys? And that's the like, none of that is hiking colors. You know what I mean? And tooo is like, you feel good? It looks nice.
- [09:15]
Mike
Yeah.
- [09:15]
Rid
Do you get swayed by Cotopaxi then?
- [09:17]
Mike
Cotopaxi is awesome. And there's also. I'm going to hype up a small business. There's this guy, I think his name is Brian Couchman. He runs this thing called Steady Bag Company. It's like the bags that you can put on the frame of your bicycles. He is like the niche, hyper designed version of the Kotopaxi stuff. And it's so good. And he's like making his own custom patterns and he's like hand sewing all of them and all that kind of stuff. But yes, I'm attracted to anything that is bold. Anything that, like, you know, it's the same thing. We're just talking about risk. It's like, why would you want to just have another black bag? You know what I mean?
- [09:53]
Rid
All right, so Topo was able to identify some gap in the market that was based off of color, like pure aesthetic. So what are some of the gaps that you're helping founders cross in order for them to figure out where you can really double down with brand?
- [10:07]
Cara
Kind of talk about carrier.
- [10:09]
Mike
Oh, yeah, that was so we.
- [10:10]
Cara
This is like healthcare. So it's not maybe the most like, it's not as fun as Topo bags. But a client came to us, they're doing AI for pay organizations, which is like insurance companies. They were like, what if create. Like that pre authorization wasn't a pain. It didn't take days or weeks, and it wasn't like stressful. You just went to your doctor's office and he was like, it was as simple as swiping a credit card. So you were like, oh. He's like, I want to order an MRI for your knee. Do, do, do, do, do. Great. Okay, your MRI is pre approved. Let's schedule you for Thursday. So that's their mission which is so interesting. And the thing that we sort of had to help them identify is we had to identify, strangely, not with the consumer, because it's not the consumer's choice whether or not to use this product. It's the nurses who work there. And then it's like these massive hospital systems. And then you have to put yourself in the shoes of, like, a guy who's running Pennsylvania Hospital System, all these different hospitals, all these thousands of employees. And what is he thinking and he feeling when he makes a decision about, like, okay, I'm going to bring on this entirely new system, switch this whole big thing over here. What a hassle that is. And how do you make sure that you're selling it to him in a way that makes the hassle of change worth the benefit on the outset? It's just all about getting at the heart of, like, what sets you apart?
- [11:18]
Rid
What does it take to get at that heart? Like, what are you doing in the onset of a project to really make sure that you're understanding the perspectives of the end user and the people that are going to be encountering the brand?
- [11:29]
Cara
I mean, part of it is like, discovery, right? You talk to all the people that you can. But the other reality is, like, what we do is we ship our kid over to my mom's house and we go out to dinner and we drink a bunch of wine and we just talk about it for a long time. And that's when we say that thoughtful is the thing. We step away from our computers. It's not about taking meticulous notes. It's not about searching for what else is out there. It's about really just thinking about, what would it feel like? What would it feel like to be a nurse? And I go to my job and one day they're like, we're moving to this new system. And how does that feel and what emotions come up for you? And the other thing that I think we do that really matters is we think spend a lot of time thinking about the emotion. Like, what emotions do you want your brand to be tied to? How do you want people to feel when they're interacting with it, when they hear that there's a rebrand, when they see this new product, like, what are the feelings that they're getting? Because that's really what it's all about, is creating a feeling.
- [12:19]
Mike
I feel like a lot of the AI people right now are just like, well, it gets the job done faster and better, so why wouldn't I use it? And like, I say to Carl, all The time the magic happens in the mess. Like, the magic happens when you're digging through things, you're digging through notes, and then you see the way you underline something, like, where it's just like, oh, yeah, like we're going to go back to that. And like, there's so much inside of that, like, humanity. And I think that we really just hone in on the emotional value that, like, this thing, this brand or whatever, this interaction, we hone in on what that will do to a person who maybe doesn't care. Like, maybe doesn't. It isn't inclined to care. How do we make them care? And I think that a lot of the times when we make brands, I'm just like, oh, yeah, I'm using a gatefold menu for this restaurant because no one else is using gatefold menus. And like, they'll open that up and be like, okay, I've never seen that before. And then, you know, they'll think about it for two more seconds. And I feel like in this age, as long as the age of, like, attention economy, if you can get someone to look at something for two more seconds, like, you've won.
- [13:27]
Cara
When you're in this, like, strategy platform state, it's so easy to do the sort of, like, bare minimum to look at. Like, okay, I listened to 10 interviews about what they want, and turns out nurses just want it to be easy. And then you're like, our brand is easy. And like, that's not actually what they want. That's just what they said. And you have to be able to look past what people say to what they actually mean behind what they say. And that can be really hard because especially when you're in this phase, you can look and be like, everyone said they just want reliability, I guess, our Internet reliability. But like T mobile, like, everybody says reliability, like, that's so boring and uninteresting. You don't know whose platform is reliability versus coverage. And is there even a difference between those two, you know, versus. Why don't you do something that makes people be like, oh, I had a feeling when you said that word, which, like, doesn't happen with easy or reliability. You know, you have to push a little further into zones. And I think that comes back to risk. It might feel riskier to not say we're the reliable network when, like, everybody's asking for reliable. We have to be reliable. And what if we don't say it and it feels scary? But then really when you're like, we're the fun network, people are like, that's what I want, you know, and then it's different.
- [14:32]
Rid
All right, can we be a fly on the wall during these late night sessions? You have a glass of wine, you're in the thick of a new project. What are you trying to achieve in those jam sessions? And what are some of the things that you typically do to get momentum really early in a new project?
- [14:49]
Cara
This client that we're working on, I can't share any of it because it's not live yet. We were working on the strategy, and we were just, like, talking about, what does this feel like? And some. One of the things we started talking about yesterday is like, okay, how do you describe this by a person? Like, some strategists will put like, your brand is this person. Like, I don't know that you need that, but it can be a helpful tool to say, like, oh, like, what does that sound like? So, for example, somebody was like, well, how did you come up with, like, what perplexity should feel like? And I was like, it should basically feel like Malcolm Gladwell, super informed, super. Knows everything, but explains it to you in a way that makes really sense and it really resonates. And you're like, yeah, okay, I feel great. And I want to listen to his podcast and read his book, but he's like, super, super smart. So that can be helpful to feel like, oh, yeah, that's who our brand is encapsulated by a human being that I can picture and I can reference. And so we were just listing people like, oh, is it this chef? Is it the celebrity chef? Is it, oh, is it this Olympian? Is it this? Like, who are the people that might feel related, relatable to this brand? Then we can, like, look at that person and be like, oh, that's what your tone should feel like. That's what your personality should feel like for your brand.
- [15:53]
Mike
Yeah, because it's like, if you look at someone like Simone Biles, the words that might come out of that are, like, determined, focused, like, strategic, measured, accurate, like. And those kinds of words as you're describing that person can help you go into a different territory of like. I would never think of the word accurate if I wasn't trying to describe someone who's like, you know, has precision in, like, their. Yeah, and so, like, comparing that against a celebrity chef, like, that celebrity chef might be, like, meticulous.
- [16:25]
Cara
Meticulous, but vibrant, vibrant, passionate, like, loud. Maybe, like, maybe a bit abrasive. Like, there are so many words that can come from describing a person, and I feel like, that ties back to emotion too, when you're, when you think of it. I've always done this with my strategy. Anytime you're developing like a brand tone or personality, you should picture it like you're describing your brand like a person, not like a brand. Because it's very easy to describe your brand as like, tidy and clean, but, like, is that the words you would use to describe your best friend when you want to invite to your Christmas party? Like, no, picture it that way. And there's a million people in the world, so they can all be different.
- [17:01]
Mike
Yeah. And then another thing that's really sweet is like, sometimes when you bring this up to people, they'll bring up people you don't know and then you get them to tell you about it and they get so excited and they're just like, well, I love this guy because he was the first person to ever climb Mount Everest. He did it with no oxygen or something. And then like, you're like, that's nuts. Like, that's crazy. And then they dive into it. And the craziest thing is he did it 14 times. And you're like, that's absolutely. And so it's like you kind of ride their energy. And I think that, that when you can, when you can bring someone's energy with you and they feel like you get them, they won't go anywhere else.
- [17:38]
Rid
I love framing a brand as a person. Are there any other tactics that you find yourself going back to when you're trying to figure out what a brand strategy is?
- [17:47]
Cara
I've worked on teams at big agencies, small agencies, but the thing that I come back to every single time, the way that we run our strategy, it ties back to when we worked together at Charity Water, which is a nonprofit. And they just approach strategy differently. It's all tied to that emotion in a way that a lot of corporate strategy often is not. Often it's like much more dry and like, all about actually selling it through to the stakeholders as opposed to actually making a difference to the people who might eventually buy the brand.
- [18:15]
Mike
That's very true because, like Scott, the CEO, has a fantastic story that he is so, so good at telling. And he is just like, how are we going to get people to give their hard earned dollars to give that to someone in, you know, a developing country? But the foundation of just like, imagine not having clean water. Just imagine not drinking, being able to turn the tap on and have water. Imagine walking 5 to 10 miles with it on your head and like, it's dirty when you get there, it's dirty when you get home. And, like, just imagine that. And so he was just so, so good at, like, tapping into that emotional button. And then when we were at Charity Water, we were there for two years and we wrote rewrote the whole strategy, rewrote everything for, like, the style guide and everything. So we were, like, deeply entrenched with shaping that language.
- [19:05]
Cara
The way that we've adapted it now is like, one of the things is really understanding what is the purpose of your strategy. So I think a lot of folks, if you're working at, like, a big agency, the goal of the strategy is mostly to make sure that everyone at this large agency is on the same page, which is a very good thing and is very useful. So even if that's all your strategy is doing good for you to try and, like, compete if you're a challenger to try for a T Mobile to try and, like, steal 1% more of Verizon's business. But there's not like this emotion. If you sit down at your desk and you are handed the strategy document on your first day and you're like, told to read the new, like, brand guidelines and strategy, what are you supposed to feel on that first day working at this new company? And we try to frame it in that way. So, like, again, we're always putting that emotion into things of, like, what is your vision? Your vision is the thing you should share with somebody. And there's different names for it. Your vision, your purpose, whatever. That's the thing you should share with a new recruit. Be like, oh, here's what our vision is as a company. Here's our purpose. And they should be like, I'm canceling all my other interviews. I want to work with you. Like, they should be on board with what you're doing. It shouldn't just be a plan. It should be a thing that makes somebody feel something.
- [20:11]
Rid
It's interesting because I can see how something like Charity, you know, it's quite possible to tap into that emotion where it gets a little bit more challenging when you're like, the person's listening. They're like working on a SaaS product and maybe they are using AI to streamline an old workflow. And it's like a very clear, defined problem. It's like, okay, well, how do I make that emotional? You know?
- [20:32]
Mike
Yeah, yeah, totally.
- [20:33]
Cara
I mean, and it's. It's not necessarily easy. And that's why people pay us to do it, is because it takes a lot of thought to think about. How do you Come up with something that feels true. Like, okay, you're like a food tracking app.
- [20:43]
Mike
I was just gonna say that because, like, they came to us and they were like, we're a food tracking app. We're gonna use AI to kind of fill out the rest of the day and do all this kind of stuff. And I was like, I'm out. Immediately, I'm out. But Rami and Adam were very sweet. They're very, very sweet and also very, very hardworking. And Rami was just like, so in most food tracking apps, if you eat anything that's not chicken and rice, like, if you're eating Indian food or Ethiopian food or something like that, it's almost impossible to try because it's just like, the apps are not designed for flavor. They're not designed for culture. They're designed for, like, streamlined bento box chicken and broccoli and rice. And he was like, I want to change that. And then I was like, hold on a second. Like, I have, like, a super messed up stomach. Like, I am constantly always worried about my stomach and worried about what I'm going to eat. So I. I eat the most boring foods ever. Are you telling me that maybe I could use this and the AI maybe could help me reorganize the way I do my recipes and things so I can get some flavor and I could do. And I really focus in on things. I like, he was like, absolutely. Like, that's the goal of what? And I was like, oh, I'm in. I'm here. I'm ready. Let's go. Because, like, not only was it for the fitness, but it was for culture, and it was also for, like, helping people like me that I would never download that app.
- [22:00]
Cara
Yeah. Well, I think the interesting thing about what you just said is that statement that Rami made was, like, it was, like, one minute in a very long conversation.
- [22:08]
Mike
Yeah.
- [22:08]
Cara
And most people might not hear it, but one of the things that we do, we try really hard is, like, pay attention to that tiny thing and find that nugget of, like, oh, that's actually what makes you different. All the things that you're saying about, like, oh, it's a little faster. It's a little easier. Like, okay. But, like, you might have an easier track you can use voice to track, but, like, who's going to steal that next week? That's not going to actually set you apart. What will set you apart is if you're speaking to a global audience in a way that everyone else is, not that you have this, like, idea this tie, that food is not just about the calories. It's not just about the nutrients. It's about the culture. It's about the way that you feel when you sit down at Thanksgiving dinner. It's about, like, your mom's pasta. Like, if you can tap into that emotion that food brings, that's what's going to set you apart from all the other bland tracking apps out there. So for us, I feel like that's where the strategy comes from is like, those conversations where you get at that thing that truly sets you apart, not the thing that you think sets you apart.
- [23:01]
Mike
And again, that taps into, like, you only get that when you're an imaginative client. If you're there just to make money, we can tell I am, like, the most impractical businessman that I think exists. Like, I don't care about money in any way, shape, or form. Like, this studio is for the love of the game. Like, I love design. I'm obsessed with design. It's like, people made fun of me, like, for so long because they're just like, you're corny. You're always, like, too much into this. I'm like, I don't care. Like, this is why I'm here. Like, this is why I'm on the earth is to, like, make little postcards for my friends and make tote bags for my family. So the fact that I get to make a living out of it is a bonus. That's not why I'm doing it.
- [23:42]
Rid
It's a refreshing perspective in a world where most people talk a lot about making the transition to more of a creative director. Distancing themselves from the craft, achieving scale, optimizing. And then there's you and then there's me.
- [23:56]
Mike
Like, to tie that back to your subscription thing. Like, I posted something the other day. I was like, you know, just poking fun of them for all going to out of subscription. And then, like, a lot of, like, people tagged that Brett from Design Joy or whatever. And, like, when you click their profiles, the. The first thing in their profile is like, I make a million dollars every month or I make whatever. And I responded and I was like, if you have a dollar sign in your bio, you don't get it. You don't know what I'm talking about. That's not why I'm here. That's not why I'm doing it. And they're like, you're an idiot. And I'm like, okay, I'm fine with that.
- [24:30]
Rid
Like a happy idiot.
- [24:32]
Mike
Yeah. Like, I'm totally fine. With that. I love sitting down at my computer, and I love making stuff, and I love cracking into something that, like, maybe no one's doing or, like, you know, changing the world in just, like, the tiniest little way, like, and making it a little bit more beautiful or a little bit more understandable, a little bit more digestible. Like, that's why I'm doing it. Not like, I could have changed this studio 15 times over and just, like, scaled all the way up, made a few million dollars, and then, you know, go sit on a beach in Hawaii or something. But that's not why I'm doing it.
- [25:03]
Rid
All right, let's use this as a launching point into the more visual side of things, then. And maybe we can start by framing the entry point in a similar way as the very beginning of this conversation. What are you tired of seeing in brand design today?
- [25:18]
Mike
Everything comes back around. So it's like, the stuff I was tired of, like, the 2D flat illustration. Now I would feel like that's a breath of fresh air product. Like, Skeuomorphism is coming back, which is, like, super, super interesting. It's basically things just create these, like, hit these saturation points where, like, everything was reflex blue and then everything was green, and then everything is a gradient, and then now it's, like, kind of shifting to everything. Feels dreamy all the time. You hit the moments where you're like, yeah, I'm tired of this. And I. If I see another, you know, gloopy typeface, I swear to God, like, I know you guys are just cashing the check at this point, but it'll come back. You know, like, somebody has to change it, and then it comes back. It's a constant cycle of reinvention. And I think that's the best part about this field, is that there isn't one way to do it. And I think that if you're a person who is chasing trends and just following that kind of stuff, like, you will be like, oh, there's only one way. There's only one way. There's only one way. But, like, I think that the diversity of what we're allowed to do in our field is, like, just so, so awesome. So I won't say that I ever get tired of anything. I'll say that maybe you could think about it a little bit differently. You could be a little bit more imaginative. You could put your own spin on it. Because it's like, if I see you doing, like, you know, the same thing as, like, superpower, superhuman, or whatever, where it's like big, beautiful orange gradients and stuff. It's like, I've already seen, like, three sites that look just like that. And I'm like, why didn't you make it, like, a little different like that? Why didn't you do that? So it's like, I don't get tired of stuff. I kind of just ask the question of what made you think that that was okay to do the same thing? You know, do you think it's even.
- [26:55]
Rid
Possible to create a brand that's actually timeless, or does everything just live on this cyclical trend chart?
- [27:02]
Mike
Yeah, I saw a very interesting thing one time. It was like, in 2020, when, like, the Black Lives Matter stuff was happening, and someone was like, calling an identity timeless is racist. And I was like, jesus Christ. I was like, holy. And they were like, what you mean is, like, 1960s Swiss, 1950s Swiss. Like, that's what you mean. You mean a time period in a Anglo, you know, whatever country. And it's so easy to knee jerk on that and be like, oh, my gosh, that's insane to say. Or you think about it for a second and I was like, there's a little bit of validness in it. It's just like, you know, everyone's chasing that at all times, and there's not a lot of soul in it. There's not a lot of, you know, humanity in it. This thing's, like, purely geometric. And like, most of the time, when people say timeless, they just mean geometric, which is weird to say.
- [27:53]
Cara
I have another hot take. So, interestingly, I think a lot of the time, and this just goes back to, like, hearing past the words that people say. When people say they want a timeless brand, what they actually mean is, I don't want to have to rebrand in three years, and I don't want to have to rebrand in five years. I want something that's going to last and endure. And so, like, you have to get past the words that people use of, like, maybe they want something that's of a time that's like, feels like it's from the 1960s. Or maybe what they mean is, I really need this to stick, and I really can't afford to redo this in four or five years. I don't want something trendy. And so I think that sometimes you have to sort of, like, listen to the other words to figure out which of those things they're actually asking for. Are they asking for something that has all those geometric qualities? Are they asking for something that they feel like has the legs that can stand for 10 years or 20 years or 30 years.
- [28:39]
Mike
It's super interesting. When you're starting to design stuff, I would chase timelessness because like it's such like a impossible to achieve goal, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, sure. Like it, you could say that timeless just means it scales down well and it looks nice on a circle and like it looks nice on Instagram, it looks nice in Gmail. Like you could say that's timeless. But like the, the true test of time is like, is that company actually worth anything? Is that company actually good at anything? Like timeless things? Like we look back at timeless logos now because those, it's what's for like the New York City subway, that's still there, it's still doing stuff that's still good and it's still providing a public service. And I feel like that is what you actually need to do.
- [29:28]
Cara
Well, and I think, you know, to go like really heady with this question, I think one of the reasons that a lot of people consider mid century design to feel timeless is because it was made with a lot of craft. And that craft has shown that it will last the test of time versus a lot of the brands that were made in the 80s or the 90s which were not made with a lot of craft. They were made with a lot of new tools like flash in the pan and then. So those are not timeless because they did not stand the test of time. So I do think it's all about.
- [29:57]
Mike
What a great, what a great. I would never have ever said that, but that's actually.
- [30:00]
Rid
Yeah, I like that idea a lot.
- [30:02]
Mike
Because we were trying new things, we were trying new computers, we were trying like just looking at the Rand McNally like addresses and like from 1950, you're like, there was craft, there was care, there was like a person working on it. And then the 1990s, it immediately just like went to pure dog shit. And it was like from one year to the next, like it was just like they got a computer and that was. And that was it. So it was so crazy to see that. But that's totally right. They were just trying new materials. And so would you say we're there right now?
- [30:30]
Cara
I was going to say that exact same thing. We're at that same sort of crux, you could say, and design now of like most of the things made with AI shouldn't probably be made with AI look pretty bad because it's a brand new tool and nobody knows how to use use it yet. So like, if you're seeing stuff in AI and you're like, why does that puppy have a fifth leg? Of course it does. It's a brand new tool. Nobody knows how to use it. It looks exactly like a Rand McNally atlas in 1994. It's like not good where there's too much and you're just what? But what are you supposed to do? You know, it's a brand new medium, you have to try it and the medium is going to get better. Like the graphic design tools on computers in the 90s were not strong, but to me it's, it all comes back to like how much thought and care are you putting in? Or are you trying to get the cheapest brand out there possible and then call it timeless? That's not how it was made.
- [31:13]
Rid
Yeah, maybe we can use this as a launching point then to talk about your experience using AI generators for brand design.
- [31:19]
Mike
Oh man, it's crazy that our work, our AI stuff and Pentagram's AI stuff dropped in the same week and Pentagram just like got worn apart. And I was emailing with Armin from Brand New and he was just like, well you have to understand that like Pentagram has like a target on their back. Like people want to hate it because it's like they're huge. They're a conglomerate of design at this point. So like if they're taking shortcuts, people are like immediately going to attack them for it. But when they, when we did it, people are a little bit more like, well, we're just trying to punch above our class, punch above our weight, you know what I mean? They understand that this was something that we wanted to explore and we explored it with our intention and our thoughtfulness that we felt was to a high enough quality that it could go into a project that we worked on. The client at the time that we were working with Alma, they asked us to look into it. They were just like, we're not saying you have to do it, but we're saying look into it. Because we have this idea that we love to use custom food for every different time that somebody logs something. And so, you know, we were like, okay, how can we approach this in any way, shape or form that is repeatable or could be iterated on? And I actually was introduced to them through Colin, who is one of the co founders of Visual Electric. I was already using Visual Electric anyway because I like when Mid Journey was in Discord, I was like, there's a zero percent chance you catch me in A discord. There's a zero percent chance. And so I was already in Visual Electric because it looks like Figma. And I don't know if Colin will be mad that I said that or not.
- [32:59]
Rid
I think you would appreciate it.
- [33:00]
Mike
So it looks like figma. It feels like figma. It operates like figma. And that, to me, I was just, like. I was comfortable. I felt like I was like, I can move around in here with confidence. And up until Alma, I was just using it to, like, make backgrounds. Like, cool gradient. Like, looks like it's on a different planet or, like a flower that was in airbrushed texture or something like that. And I was just using it to make backgrounds because it was beautiful. And I thought they were doing some really cool stuff. And when Alma was like, we want to try this, I went through, like, five different versions of, like, artistic angles and, like, all this other kind of stuff. And then once we kind of realized that we could embrace the insanity of it, it truly felt like someone, like, opened a door in my mind of, like, you can do this, and it can be really, really interesting and visually interesting. And I think a lot of the people that are mad about what I did are, like, saying that, like, it's not okay that he thinks that just because it looks good, it's fine to do. And, you know, that's a very good and astute, you know, opinion to have of just, like, why, as humans, will we give leeway to just things that are aesthetically pleasing?
- [34:11]
Rid
It's human nature, though.
- [34:13]
Mike
It's human nature. Yeah. You're attracted to beautiful things. You're attracted to things that draw your eye in and naturally. And so I get it. And something I haven't told anyone is I presented that in the mood boards. So I was like, let me just float this idea. And they won't even know that I made it. And so when they saw it, they were like, holy shit. Like, is that someone else's thing? And I was like, let's go. No, Like, I was like, this is an idea that we have been, like, just messing around with. We only had generated three things that kind of worked, but we put them in there as a gift, and they were like, that's it. So we then built the whole brand based on, like, the excitement and the kind of explosive quality of those collages, which was really cool.
- [35:01]
Rid
I love it because you give yourself the out. It's like, I just got those on pictures. It's just something like that.
- [35:05]
Mike
Exactly, exactly. I was just like, yeah, let's just Float it. Let's just float it. Let's see what happens.
- [35:10]
Rid
Use the phrase open the door, like in your mind of like, oh, okay, now I can actually see how I could use this. Yeah, I would imagine that that took a little bit of trial and error and you probably didn't just stumble backwards into those three concepts that made it in the mood board. So like, what were some of those early hurdles that you were having to overcome when you were first getting your feet under you in the tool?
- [35:31]
Mike
Sure. Yeah. So like the name Alma means soul in Spanish. And he was like, the whole brand is based on like a trip that he went to in Spain. And I just got like incredibly swept up in the culture of Spain and like art and food and the way that like the clothing is and all that kind of stuff. And so he was like, I don't know if we can tap into art in some way, but I would love it if it felt painterly and if it felt like it had an artistic quality. So like, originally I was in there like typing like hand painted tomato, you know what I mean? And then it was like coming back with like the most generic AI looking thing that could have possibly happened. And I was like, all right, that's not it. So then I was like floating painted tomato. And that way I was hoping I could get it, like having paint stuff but in an environment of something. And then when it did that, it cut the tomato in half and then put the stem in the middle of the half of the cut. And then that opened up the. Like, that's what, like, that's silly. Like, I don't get that. I don't think that I was like, oh, this is going to happen more often than not, isn't it? And then I did like a few more things, some avocados, some other things. And then I tried to do a meal and it was an absolute disaster. Had no idea how to do the whole meal. And then I was like, okay, so the meals don't work because it can't parse out every separate ingredient. So what if I go into like putting commas in there and just trying to generate all the ingredients separately. And then I was going to collage them together. So I was already like going to collage this thing. So then there's a collage, like filter in visual electric. And then I clicked that and it was like, here it is. This is what your mind has immediately right here. And it was really, really cool. And I just like, from then on, I was just like just going on and on and on real quick, don't.
- [37:26]
Rid
Forget that you can get a free month of Visual Electric if you use the code Dive Club. I love the product just as much as Mike does and I'm pretty sure that you will too. All right, back to the episode, maybe even zooming out. How do you think about the way that brands can stand out in this world that we're entering where anybody listening to this can hop onto Visual Electric and generate a bunch of pretty high quality imagery using similar tactics?
- [37:53]
Mike
At the end of the day, it's like you always have to have a story to tell, like tell a better story. And I think that whatever visual goes around that will be fine. But I don't think you can just like crank out like cool backgrounds, you know what I mean? Like, or just like, oh, a chick at her computer doing something. I think that you need to be like, why? And I think that if you approach that tool with why in mind, you will find yourself exploring, you'll find yourself iterating and doing some things, you know, clicking around to different kinds of like motifs like retro or poster, like all these other kinds of things. You'll find yourself being a little bit more open ended. And I think when you were interviewing Fee, he was saying it great. He was just like, oh, this is exactly right. So I'm just gonna put a little link that people can click that goes right to Fee's thing of just like knowledge and like the excitement that knowledge and like the exploration of knowledge is core. So like no matter what they make in mid journey or Visual Electric, as long as knowledge and the explosive quality, quality of learning something, as long as that's still at the ethos of what has been created, it will feel on brand.
- [39:08]
Cara
I also think that there's, as a brand manager or brand owner, it's important to ask yourself like why you're choosing to use AI. Is it because you want to save time and money that might not be as effective. It's the same as like, oh, we don't want to do a photo shoot, it's too expensive. So we're going to use stock photography. Like it's going to feel more like stock photography. It's going to feel like AI with all my. The thing that was different was there. That wasn't the reason we were doing it. The reason we were doing it was because then it felt more personalized. When you entered in your meal, there was a custom collage made for you.
- [39:40]
Mike
Like that's why we use the tool is because we wanted the user who was entering Their thing to be like, how the hell did they do that for me? You know what I mean?
- [39:48]
Cara
Instantly. Yeah.
- [39:48]
Mike
And that comes back to what we were just talking about, like full circle. We're always thinking about, does it feel special in your hand? Does it feel special in your heart? And I think that a lot of the times, like when we're making logos or identities or something, like when I see something that catches and makes my heart skip a beat, I'm just like, that's it, let's go. Like. And that to me is like a lot of people are a little bit afraid to push past what is acceptable and what is beautiful. Like, how do you make the one thing that makes your heart jump when you see it? That, that I think is the most important thing.
- [40:24]
Rid
Hey, it's red. I'm constantly asked about my favorite products, so take just one minute and give you a quick rundown of my stack. Destin is how I ship design changes without having to code. Framer is how I build my websites. Genway is how I do research. Jitter is how I animate my designs and play is how I design and prototype mobile apps. Visual Electric is how I generate all of my imagery. And Raycast is my short shortcut every step of the way. Now I've hand selected these companies to partner with me so that I can do these episodes full time. So the best way by far to support the show is to check them out. You can find the full list at Dive Dot Club slash Partners. Okay, now on to the rest of the episode. Can we talk a little bit about how you think about the brand architecture surrounding a logo and type? And when you're imagining what this visual identity can be like, there's a little, it's a lot more open ended, you know, that can literally be anything that you surround the crux of the identity with. So how do you figure out what that can be for a given client?
- [41:28]
Cara
Sometimes that's like the hardest part of it. And like Mike's word for it that he tells the team all the time is like, we need moves. And so that's like the, our generic term for all the other stuff, like all the other things that aren't your color palette, it's not your type slide, it's not your logo. It's like, how do you have things that you can do that feel ownable? And we have a couple of studio tests that we run to see if it feels ownable. So one of them is how do you feel like your type is ownable enough that it's original. We have the bathroom test. You need to be able to type out, bathroom is closed. And with nothing else on the page, does that type feel on brand? And if it's in Helvetica, it could be any.
- [42:08]
Mike
It could be anything.
- [42:10]
Cara
But how do you make sure that that brand type, just, like, super generic, feels like it's hitting. And we do the same thing with moves. Like, early on in our career, where we met, we worked at a branding studio that didn't do logos. They never did any logos. They mostly worked for higher education. So, like, these storied schools, like, the University of Notre Dame is, like, not looking for a new logo. But even if they need a new brand, what do they need? They need all the other stuff that goes around that new logo. They don't want new colors either, because their colors are, like, steeped into their culture.
- [42:37]
Mike
So we worked there for two years, just building. Like, she worked on Duke, and you worked on Notre Dame. I worked on Villanova. I worked on, like, Providence College, Kinesis College, Trinity.
- [42:49]
Cara
Lots of colleges. And the thing you learn is, like, they used to say this test, and I think it's great. And we do this too. How do you create a thing that doesn't have your new logo on it but still feels like you? And that's how you know you're starting to develop moves in your brands that, like, oh, what is it? Like, it's a signature way that this skews or it's this pattern. It's this brand element, or it's this swoop or it's this, you know, collage, photography, whatever it is that feels like it's not just my logo and my color. And that's, like, all you have. But you have moves that you can do and use in a lot of different ways that can sort of replace your logo.
- [43:21]
Mike
And I feel like you were talking about this a little bit. Like, when you get a new brand and you're like, what am I supposed to do on this website that isn't just the color, isn't just the type? Like, what can I put here? And then, like, sometimes when you get the brand to hand it off to you, you're like, well, there's no moves. There's nothing to do. I can't make any movement here. I try my absolute best to make sure that we hand off brands that have moves. And a lot of the times, like, I'll be honest, like, clients don't get it. A lot of the times, like, you know, they'll have, like, a product designer or Something on staff. And they're just like, why would I. Why would I Repeat the type 20 times? Like, and I'm just like, oh, no, it's like a train. Like, it's like the. The repetition of a train. So it's like the types going over and over and over again. They're like, what the are you talking about? And I'm just like, okay, never mind, never mind. Forget it, forget it, forget. So then, like, things like that will get cut. And then it's like, but you gotta try it. You gotta try that stuff. And, like, you gotta try to give people like, okay, what if we half tone the photography? What if we're putting duotones on stuff? What if we're having, like, weighty patterns? Even when we made patterns for Perplexity, Armin on Brand New is like, the patterns are bogus. But then I was like, oh, God, you're killing me. You're killing me. But they use them. They use them in the app. They use them and, like, it's super, super subtle. And if they didn't have it, it would feel like slightly less perplexity. You know what I mean?
- [44:47]
Rid
Do you have any advice for a founder or early designer who does have a style guide? In Figma, it's just a logo and some colors, and they have no moves.
- [44:56]
Mike
No moves.
- [44:56]
Rid
How should they start to build up this repertoire of moves, man?
- [45:00]
Cara
I mean, it depends on what you're making, right? So sometimes, as with anything, sometimes putting up some constraints can help you figure out where to start. Because if you're just like, make moves, it's like, what are you talking about? Whereas if you're like, okay, let's try to solve a problem. And I think that, you know, Alma's a good example of that. We wanted to solve this problem of how do we make the moment when you ventured a meal feel, like, successful and exciting writing and, like, personalized, and then suddenly that leads you down a path. So you look at, like, the problems you're trying to solve. Not just from a, like, oh, I need to make a website header. And I don't know what elements to put here, but also try to give yourself some. Like, even if there's sort of artificial constraints of like, okay, it needs to be something that I can use in the background behind a YouTube video. Really subtle, so it's not distracting from the main thing, but it still feels, like, branded or like, I have a big team and I need the whole team to feel, like, really excited about getting their new T shirts. Like, we're doing A swag launch or something. How do I make something that feels different for that execution? Because sometimes the hardest thing is if you're only doing product over and over and over again. It's really hard to come up with moves because you're only trying to solve the, like, how do I get from here to there Problem. You need to solve, like, a totally different problem. And I'll do this for copy too. Like, if we're doing writing, try to solve something totally different. Like, if you're at a dead end and you're like, I can't figure out how to write this website, I'm like, write something different. Write a poem, then. Write a poem about this brand. We did this for a brand. We were just working. We're like, okay, write this. Like, it's the Star wars crawl at the beginning. Like, are they going to use that? No, but it gives you this idea. I mean, it tied to the concept vaguely. So it was like. And it just allows you to write in a different tone and way and, like, medium. So I say this to the team all the time. You have to have space to, like, mess around. Like, time to just, like, play with stuff, throw stuff at the wall, make stuff that's really bad. Go through every single filter in Photoshop and, like, what do all the different, like, blending modes look like? And what does that do to this imagery? And, like, that mess around time is where you're like, oh, interesting. Let's play with that.
- [46:56]
Mike
Yeah. Blending modes in Photoshop is my, like, secret, my absolute secret trick. And you just need to know the shortcut, shift bracket, and then just do that and then, like, you'll find something cool happen, I promise. Like, you put, like, a gradient and then a circle over top of it. Then just do. And, like, just go through the blending modes. You'll find something, I guarantee it. Or what I like to do is I'll go on unsplash, I'll get a picture of the sky, and then I'll get a picture of, like, a detail and then I'll just blend. Go through blending modes on that and then I'll find something that's cool.
- [47:26]
Rid
I feel like the more that we talk, the more you keep bringing these interesting tactics and mental models. You just have these repertoire of exercises that you can put yourself through.
- [47:35]
Mike
Yeah. And something that we, like, didn't talk about. Like, when you were talking about how do you, like, like, go to strategy and stuff. And Connor, like, had, like, a really great idea of, like, how we approach it like a person, but, like, something that, like, happens is, like, there's something that we say when the brand has legs. Like, when we hit on a concept. And I think in improv, it's called yes end. And so, like, how do you keep going? And if you have an idea where you can keep going, you have a great idea. If you have an idea where it stops, you stop to think about it for maybe five, ten minutes. Like. Like, maybe that's not the right thing. There's like, a waterfall that happens that, like, when we hit those waterfall moments. So, like, like Carl said, this is for somebody who we can't really talk too much about. But, like, we were like, they're Anthony Bourdain. And then we're like, why?
- [48:23]
Cara
Right. But this is like you were saying, like, this is a SaaS product. It's for, like, it's B2B Sass. Okay? It's like, there's nothing interesting. It's not related to celebrity chefs. You would never think it's Anthony born. But you have to start with, like, okay, it's my accountant. Let's talk about him. And then let's talk about, like, whoever is next to adjacent to that. Maybe it's like I reglass until you get to somebody where you're like, well, that's different and interesting. And nobody would pair Anthony bourdain with a B2B SaaS product. And then the finance space. This is interesting.
- [48:54]
Mike
And then what we'll do is we'll do, like a good cop, bad cop where she'll go on the side of why, or I'll go on the side of why, and then vice versa will go on the side of why not. And if I'm like, anthony Bourdain is not. He's not like, a clean guy. And then she'll be like, you have a white jacket. Anthony Bourdain, when he's in his restaurant early days. Yeah.
- [49:14]
Cara
Before he became a writer, he knew. He knows how to be.
- [49:17]
Mike
He knows how to be.
- [49:18]
Cara
He knows the rules so well that.
- [49:19]
Mike
He can break them, that he can break all the rules.
- [49:21]
Cara
And then we go back and forth until we're like, oh, no, wait, there's a big hole. It's a problem. Or we're like, no holes.
- [49:26]
Mike
Yeah. So that, to me, is like the. A strategy win is when you kind of can keep running. Same thing with moves. Like, we were just talking about the brand moves thing. It's like, there are some brands that we create where you just cannot stop creating. And like, we worked on the George, which was a hotel project that we published at the beginning of the year. And I was working on a flower oriented, like stem oriented serif flare type face that I was doing custom off of a Google font. But then I was just like. Then I got introduced to Simon Walker's news agent typeface. Then I was like making floral keyholes. Then I was making the floral keyholes really big. Then I was having like floral backgrounds on things. And it's just like when you hit that tipping over, it's like the moment where you like, you look up at your computer, you're like, it's been four hours, you know what I mean? And like when you get lost in that like kind of like soul, like the movie from Pixar, like when you get lost in. What is it when you're in the zone? When you're in the zone, like, I thrive and I just. Every project, if you can find yourself in the zone, just be there, just hang out, make it all, like, just live it up. Even if it's bad, even if everything's really, really like off brand or not quite right. Like just keep making it. Because then you're just trying things, you're moving. And I think that even if that move doesn't work for this brand, it might work for another brand. And if you are just trying to solve too many problems, you'll get stuck.
- [50:52]
Cara
Well, I also think that it's just in general much easier to pull back than it is to push on, you know? And like, that's true with like writing. Like, like you write, write it, just write all of it. And then you can edit it down and you can get to a nice tidy. But if you're just staring, waiting to make it perfect, it's so impossible. And the same is true with design. If you're just like, I need to make the perfect thing, it's really hard. If you're like, I made a million things, then we can all, as a team look at it and decide which are the things worth saving. And like, okay, throw this stuff away. Let's go in on that. This is interesting. Interesting. Explore more that direction. Yeah, but the more you have, the easier it is and the less you have, the harder it is to keep pushing.
- [51:29]
Mike
And that's like another thing that I tell kids a lot. Like anybody who's younger who, like, you know, if I'm giving a talk or something, people are like, well, how'd you make that? And I'm like, because I made 60 of them. And I think that a lot of younger folks, and especially with AI which is really something that gets me really mad about. AI is that, like, you know, it is iterative, but, like, not really. It's all kind of just very, very vaguely spinning on one idea. And when you're making stuff, the stuff that I tell kids is like, just because you worked on it for a long time does not mean it's good. And if you get that out of your head, you will be so much more successful. It's like, yes, work on it for a long time, but don't come fight me up to why it's good, because, like, if it fundamentally isn't, don't fight me for it just because you are like, well, there's work in it. And I'm like, okay, but that work doesn't work.
- [52:21]
Cara
Yeah.
- [52:22]
Mike
And I think that if you can start to learn to cut your emotions to the work faster, you'll make more and you'll be more successful because, like, you're not tied up in, like, well, I spent two days on to on it, and my day rate is, you know, 550 a day. That equals this amount. And so you're thinking about it entirely wrong. Like, you need to be thinking about it much more iteratively, Much more. Kind of like, is it exciting to look at? And if not, keep going, because it might get there.
- [52:52]
Cara
That's another thing that we tell our team all the time, is like, make what you want. Like, I think a lot of folks don't make something that they would ever click on. Like, a lot of designers are making banner ads that they're like, I did what was asked of me, but, like, I would never click on that. I would never be like, whoa, what's that in my feed? So we tell our team all the time, would you click that? Would you want to do that? Do you want to see that ad? Would you be interested to learn more? And if you can find yourself making stuff you're excited about, that's a really good place to be.
- [53:20]
Mike
And sometimes you just make stuff that looks insane for the sake of looking insane. And that's okay. Like, that's something that's, like, exciting. It's something that you can get behind. Like, I was working on our end of year, like, post for our recap. I was like, what if it was just bonkers? You know what I mean? Like, just do that. Why not just, like, make it weird if it's like, have fun and, like, put millions of gradients inside of it? Like, a lot of the times people are just like, well, the brand guidelines. The brand guidelines are so narrow. And like, stop it. Because, like, just like we were talking about before, and this is like a horrible thing to say, but, like, if it actually looks good, people will let it fly.
- [54:02]
Rid
Let's talk about that then. Because I've seen you talk about the importance of, like, flexibility of brands in the coming years. So can you share a little bit more of your thinking on that?
- [54:11]
Mike
When you look at identities that are really successful, it's like a lot of times they're like, they have, like, motion baked into the meaning of why they exist. Like, there's no going back. The cat's out of the bag. We are obsessed with screens. We're going to be on them for the rest of our lives. Screens can move. They're made of pixels. They're made. They can be rgb, they can be, you know, almost look, field dimensional. Some of them can even do, like, holograph stuff. We can go into augmented reality, we can go into virtual reality. Like, if you're not thinking about all of that stuff, you're doing a disservice to, like, brand and identity. And I think that someday we will be able to, like, be in VR and like, touch, pick up a logo and, like, put it in our pocket or something like that. So how can you make something that feels inherently like it. It lives there. And I think that I'm really excited about that. And some people get really overwhelmed about that because they're like, I just want a logo that is timeless. And I'm like, what if it wasn't? What if it was kind? What if it existed as a spark? You know what I mean? Like, what if, like, anytime you had an idea, it showed up and you're like, hell, yeah, that's super stick. You know what I mean?
- [55:21]
Cara
A brand isn't a thing that you go and you buy and then you're done with it. Like, it's not like that. It's much more like food. Like, you have to make it again every single day. And you. It can be great and you can get better at it. And the more, you know, moves that you have in your kitchen, the better your meals are going to be. And the more ingredients you have, and the better the ingredients are, the better the meal is going to be. But, like, you still have to keep making it. And I think a lot of people think, like, oh, if I buy a beautiful brand and then like, making everything will be easy and I never have to invest in this ever again. And that's like the opposite. Like, it should be, like, great. I have these the most amazing brand ingredients, and I can't wait to cook with them every day. And then you still have to, like, make cool recipes every single day.
- [56:02]
Mike
Yeah. And then there's also the things that, like, just, like, recipes where, like, maybe you used all the good stuff, and then you're like, now I gotta scrap something together.
- [56:11]
Cara
Totally.
- [56:11]
Mike
How do I make that scrap cool? And then sometimes you might find yourself being like, like, oh, I made a quesadilla.
- [56:17]
Cara
Yeah.
- [56:17]
Mike
Hell, yeah. I got a quesadilla out of this. And it's like. But it's the most simple, fundamental. It's cheese and flour tortilla. Like, that's it. It could be type in a logo. That's it. Photography style and a logo. That's it. Like, that can also work. So you need to just keep thinking about brand as ingredients. That's such a good metaphor.
- [56:35]
Cara
It is. It really is.
- [56:37]
Rid
I was so excited to see what food item you were gonna pick as, like, the. We don't have a lot of ingredients. What are we gonna make? You chose quesadilla, and it was. Is the perfect example.
- [56:45]
Mike
It is a perfect example. It's just like, okay, the kids are hungry. Quesadillas, baby. Not a hot dog quesadilla. But then you can also make a dope quesadilla. You can do a barbecue chicken quesadilla.
- [56:55]
Rid
Well, Mike, Carla, thank you for coming on today. You're just so much fun. This was really, really enjoyable, and I appreciate the way that you think and the way that you work, and hopefully this inspires people who are thinking about branding today. And. And I'm excited to keep following along with the journey in 2025 and beyond. So thanks for taking the time.
- [57:15]
Mike
Thank you. Thanks for having.