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- [00:00]
Rafael Konda
When you are working on something, you have the vision, like, you know what you're trying to do. The goal is to communicate this idea as cleanly as you can to someone else. If I have this idea for a feature, don't just design the feature and share mockups. Don't just make a prototype and do a screen recording of you using the feature. Make an ad right. Sell this idea.
- [00:24]
Rid
Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Rid, and this is where designers never stop learning. Today's episode is with Rafael Konda, who you might remember as Rafa from the layout podcast that I used to listen to all the time. Well, today he's working as a design engineer at Retro, which is one of my favorite consumer apps. So the focus of this conversation is all about how do you create software that makes people feel something? We're going to get into how he designed the new onboarding flow for Retro, how he uses video to share his ideas, and a lot more. But let's start by going all, all the way back to the beginning of Rapha's journey.
- [01:04]
Rafael Konda
It was my first MacBook and I got it at a mall, at a store, and then I went to the restaurant section above and I set it up on a table. And yeah, you open the laptop and you see the video with the stars and the words. There was like a whole experience still today. Remember how I felt, which is like, this is cool. I thought computers were cool, but this is like, cool cool even. Not just computer cool. This is amazing. This is like a movie. Sci fi look. It's space. And then set the stage for everything else. Everything else I would see in experience, like, just trying this computer, it had that background, that context. This is amazing. This is cool. This is polished. Everything's shiny. At the time, thing was glossy. I think as a designer, I'm trying to chase that. Like, that's what I want to do. I want to make people feel something like that. Did you experience that?
- [01:53]
Rid
For me, the moment was kind of different, actually, but it was. Did you ever play the game draw something on iOS? It was one of the, like, early, like, that changed the way that I thought about software forever playing that game, because I understood software. I liked apps. I was even kind of tinkering with Adobe Illustrator in just kind of making things and playing around. But then I saw Draw Something and it was so fun and it. It just broke my box of what software could function as and where it could fit into my life. That was the moment for me where I'm like, I think I literally want to do this for the rest of my life is build stuff like this.
- [02:26]
Rafael Konda
There you go. Everyone has that, like the. The origin story. As a designer or someone in tech, I think there's always that. You can always trace it back to a moment when you're like, oh. Even though I did go, I did study computer science, like in college, but it was not really because I wanted to be a programmer or anything. Like, I never had written any code or didn't even know how it worked. But it was mostly because, like, I liked technology. Just again, computers, video games, you know, and it felt like, oh, the world is all going to be software, right? Like, it's all computers. So I felt like I might just do computers, like, to understand the world, if that makes sense. I'm making. I'm making it sound deeper than it actually was. Like, yeah, computers, sure, I'll do that. But it was like, yeah, that first year that. That's when I tried Mac. And that's where I saw like, indie devs, the apps, like from Panic and full of little delight and Easter eggs and just humanity sprinkled into. Like, I could see the people behind it. And before, the only other place where I saw you could really feel the people making the thing. Like, the people behind the thing was like, video games. The game Metal Gear Solid, the first one for PlayStation, where famously, Hideo Kojima, he's the director behind that series and he's very much like, he puts himself into it. Like, I think the first title card or something is like a game by Hideo Kojima. Like, this is. And even at the time, you wouldn't see that in video games. You wouldn't get the credits or the actors behind. Right? That was not a thing in video games. That's a thing for movies. But no, Hideo Kojima is like, no, a game by Hideo Kojima. I'm going to put myself into this. This is my taste, this is my interpretation of how a video game should be or whatever. And so in that game is full of those moments, like breaking the fourth wall, just making you think outside of the box. Like, I'll give you two examples for people, you know, people listening to this. I think that game might be too old now for.
- [04:19]
Rid
Let's not date ourselves too much here, okay?
- [04:22]
Rafael Konda
One. You know what? We didn't even call it a PlayStation 1 because there was only one.
- [04:26]
Rid
So it wasn't one PlayStation.
- [04:28]
Rafael Konda
Yeah, yeah. But that game, like, at one point you have call this character called Meryl. And the game keeps telling you that you have to call Her. Like, oh, yeah, call Meryl. Call Meryl, but you don't know her frequency. Like, you don't know how to call her. Like, you don't know her number. The game will not tell you. And you're stuck because you know what you have to do, but you don't know how to do it. So at some point, I'm sure you get so frustrated and so bored and so stuck that you start looking at the. The game box in, like, the. You see the back of the box, and in the back, there's a bunch of screenshots of the game and explaining what the game is. In one of the screenshots, you see, like, an image of a call between you, the character, and Meryl. And in that screenshot, you can see the frequency, and that's how you would know which number. Like to call her. This would not fly nowadays. Like, no, wait. You're purposefully getting gamers stuck and frustrated. You're purposefully getting people frustrated. Like, that's usually something even as designers, we avoid at all costs. Right? We don't want users to get frustrated. Fine. This is a game, not a. An app or whatever, a tool. But. But, like, frustration ignited creativity for some. I'm sure some people dropped it, like, all right, you know what? I'm done with this game. I can't do it. But that moment is like, so. Because when you get it, what you feel when you're like, oh, I get it, you know, that feeling, man, is so memorable, it's forever. Here I am telling you the story, and, like, there's this other character, second moment from the game. There's another character called Psycho Mantis. It's a boss, really hard boss. And the whole thing about this character is, like, he's. He's psychic, and he can. He can read your mind. So if you're trying to shoot it or something, you always be one step ahead because it's reading your mind. And at some point, the character says, here's a magic trick. Place your controller on a flat surface, and you're like, your controller. Wait, it's already breaking the fourth wall. Like, what do you mean, your controller? Because now he's talking to the player, not the character. So you put it and then uses the rumble feature, which was new and innovative at a time. So by. By vibrating the controller, it would move. It was like, see, Magic trick. I'm making your controller move. That also blew my mind. And then the way you defeat this boss is you have to unplug the controller. There were wires back Then people, for people listening, you had to plug in with a wire, the controller anyway. So you had to unplug the controller from controller one port and plug it in controller two port. And then all of a sudden he couldn't read your mind anymore. No way. And that's how you would defeat it. Do you understand rit? Do you understand what's going on here? The creativity, the genius, the fun, the frustration. There's so many feelings, there's so many emotions. I know video games, but like these things, these moments, it imprinted on me and like this is what I would love to. To make other people, people using software that I designed or I made or whatever it is I make. Like I want to inject some of that humanity, inject some of yourself in it a little bit. Be creative when you can and just create those moments of surprise. I know, like surprise and delight. It's a very overused term nowadays, but I'm just going to use it again because I don't know what else to call it. But yeah, a little surprise. But like, oh, wow. Or I didn't think that was possible or how did I do that? That's cool. That's why I do, I think what I do.
- [07:39]
Rid
Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. When you're prototyping with AI, if you're spending time recreating styles, components and layouts from your actual product, I got news for you. You're probably wasting time and definitely not using the right tool either. That's why I love recommending desen to teams. In one click, you and everyone on your team can prototype directly in your code base without ever opening an ide. Desen extracts your design language and gives you the perfect sandbo to explore without any of the technical hurdles. It's a pretty big deal. And you can connect your code base and start prototyping today. Just head to Dive Club Dessin. That's D E S S N. It's surreal that I can just talk to my computer before bed. And then agents explore 20 different concepts on paper's canvas that I can review the next morning to pick a direction. And using paper to scale my explorations with AI is 20 totally reshaping the way that I think about my design process. And in the time that it would take me to make two manual iterations, I can see a design 10, 20 different ways on the canvas. And I always comes up with something that I didn't consider. So I'll just grab my favorite parts from a handful of concepts, start moving Things around making little tweaks and everything that the canvas is really good at. And then when I'm ready, I can just tell Claude or Codex to build the selected frame. And there's nothing lost in translation because Paper's canvas already uses HTML and css. Paper is truly taken my design process to the next level. I cannot recommend it enough. Just head to Dive Club Paper to start designing today. Now, onto the episode. I want to tap into this concept of you chasing that through your career. It's obviously played a big role. Maybe before we go into that, though, I'm curious if you've experienced that with any products recently. Maybe something that feels a little bit more like a traditional digital product, just to help people wrap their head around what this actually could look like. And then maybe from there we can then talk about, okay, like, how have you pursued that? But does anything come to mind where you've played it or used a product for the first time and you're like, oh, wow, this, this did something for me.
- [09:53]
Rafael Konda
There's this new app. It's designed for you to track the position of the sun and, like, where the light is coming from.
- [09:59]
Rid
Oh, interesting.
- [10:00]
Rafael Konda
Like, say that if you want to do, like, if you're doing like a shoot, like a movie or production, whatever, tv, and you need to know, like, at what time of day, where's the sun coming? And the way you, like, interact with this UI is a lot of, like, gyroscope motion stuff and it's a super cool UI that you wouldn't really expect. And everything is really polished. So I'm going to put, I'm gonna send you the links two examples that come to mind.
- [10:22]
Rid
One is maybe a little bit easier because it is very, very consumer, almost more game like. But have you ever played with the Tolan app? Maybe a long shot?
- [10:32]
Rafael Konda
No.
- [10:33]
Rid
Okay, so Tolan T O L A N is this AI companion. But it's, it's cute, the branding's amazing. And they turned it into this game where you're kind of building this world together and. And I don't know, I saw it enough times where I was like, I'm just gonna download this and play with it. And the initial experience of this app is unbelievable because they throw you so deep into this world and you're talking with this oracle who's like, understanding who you are as a person and then you meet this new friend and everything about it is sensational. I do think there is, you know, playing in that level of consumer is a little bit easy mode because you can Take more risks. But another example that I think is interesting is we've continually had this raising of the bar for onboarding experiences for new browsers. So, like, ARC browsers, onboarding experience was crazy. Like, that was crazy. And then they, you know, had to one up themselves with dia, but then Comet came out with perplexity. And like, you have the. The space overlay on your Mac when you have all the sound effects and the planets and it's like, oh, okay. Like, that was a cool 20 seconds where they didn't need to do any of that. But I felt it for sure.
- [11:41]
Rafael Konda
Interesting that, like, browsers became the space to do that. Like the unboxing experience.
- [11:46]
Rid
The most commodified tool ever.
- [11:47]
Rafael Konda
Yeah, because, well, you need to stand out, right? That first impression. I'm surprised that we don't do more of this. I mean, I also know and learned the hard way why we don't. But, like, even when I was at Sketch, I did prototyping, played it around with some ideas. But, like, you don't want to hijack their computer. You don't want to play sounds that can be very intrusive. You don't want. Like, there's a lot of reasons why you shouldn't do it, but there's also some reasons why you should. And, like, who's making that call right in the world? What I feel like you design for everyone, right? You have to take into all kinds of users, which is great. Like, I'm not saying we shouldn't. It's good accessibility wise and just like, be aware of every type of user that might be interacting with this. But at the same time, if you try to generalize so much, then it's harder to do those more like targeted experiences, if you will. At Retro, I worked on, like, the little. I don't know if you call it unboxing, but we would play a little video with haptics and stuff. The first time you would launch it, it was very much like, targeted to a type of audience. It's like a slideshow of pictures, like, emotionally charged a little bit with, like a message going through. And then there's a haptic that you feel it with every new picture in the slideshow. And then, like, the whole thing is like, nowadays the world is full of ads and slopping, AI and reels and whatever. And then we lose some of the, like, special moments with friends, family, things that matter. This is the type of the message. And it starts, like, very fast. And because of the haptics, you can feel the fast Pace of it. And then as it goes, it slows down to kind of communicate that thing like, hey, let's slow down in this world that's very noisy and very fast. Let's slow down and get back to essentials or what matters or whatever. I think it was a neat idea. I think it's cool. I liked it. I think people that see this may be like, that's neat, great. But also you're introducing like a 10 second video before showing them the, you know, the sign up button. And there's a lot of reasons why people just drop. And they did, by the way, like, just a little insight. Finally, this guy is saying something useful for people listening. Where are the lessons? Hi, I'm Rafa. I'm here in this podcast and it's a great honor and Rid has had a bunch of brilliant, brilliant, smart guests. And now it's my turn. It's my turn to like ground a little bit this podcast and have the audience finally connect and like, relate to. Oh yeah, he's not that smart. That's nice. I can see myself in this podcast. Anyway, so we do this video and we test it and I think we lost like 20% or 30% of signups for people, you know, who see the video first. And it's like, it makes sense. But like, all right, but sure, signups. But what about at the end of the onboarding? Meaning maybe a lot of people drop, but would those people drop anyways during the onboarding flow or no. And then the numbers get a little bit softer. It's not that big of an impact. And then we didn't really do much in depth testing and whatever. Like, we don't know what kind of users would we get out of this thing, but suffice to say, like, of course you're going to play a video. Before at that time was like, you had to tap and hold to skip. Because I didn't want people like accidentally tapping and skipping because I worked a lot on this video and I want people to see it. Of course everyone wants to see this, right? Why would you want to skip it? Beautiful. Stop. But yeah, no, so a lot of people dropped and like, all right, well, let's make it easy. Easier to skip maybe then if you really don't want to watch this, you don't have to quit the app. You can just tap. And that helped. And then like, actually we, we were playing the sound regardless of your like the mute switch state, whatever, in the phone. Because I'm like, we only have one opportunity to show this Video and the soundtrack kind of plays a big role in how it makes you feel and all. So I really, I didn't want to risk people not listening because I, as a user, my phone is on silent, like all the time, constantly. So if I'm designing for myself, like, oh, I as a user would be bummed if I didn't, because how would you even know there was sound? And then we, like, we maybe softened that up and actually, like, we would respect the mute switch. A great experience that I think for people who would appreciate this, it would make a big impact, but also has a big impact on everything else. And there's a reason why Apple doesn't do the video anymore when you open your Mac. Because, like, hey, there's people who buy these computers for like, massive organizations and companies and we have to set up 200 of these. And if I have to wait 10 minutes to watch a video every time I open one to set it up, like, come on, right? So if you try to design for everyone, then it's harder to make these things. It's harder to like Hideo Kojima when he was doing Metal Gear Solid, if. If the goal was like, you have to do the mainstream game that everyone is going to love and everyone's going to beat it and it's going to be the greatest game ever for the masses, then he couldn't do those things. You can't purposefully get players stuck and frustrated. Right? You know what I mean? So I feel like that's why nowadays, before, you would see more big companies doing these risks, and now the big companies cannot afford to make these bigger risks. And that's why we see it in the smaller indie shops, smaller devs that can make the risks. Like, my own side projects are full of these little things that I don't really do on my day job, right? Or do not as much or not as intensely because the pressure is off. And then like, it's fine if, if I lose 10% of my user base.
- [17:13]
Rid
I think there's a middle ground too that's kind of interesting. Like one of the lessons that I internalized from one of the co founders at Maven years ago, where especially as a designer that skews slightly more technical. Like, I see all the edge cases, I see all of the different Personas, I see all of the ways that an experience could be suboptimal for this specific type of person in this specific type of state. And it's really easy to let those not happy paths, like, lower the ceiling of what the experience can be for the people that we really care about in the Persona that we're really optimizing for. And I think I've had to almost unlearn some of that a little bit where I'm like, no, no, no, I'm okay. Not ignoring. That's a, that's a strong word, you know, but downplaying the impact for this 1% of state or this 1% of users, if it means that I can create something that's really special for the people that I want to make sure are sticky and love the product, and maybe that does mean adding a little bit more friction if I feel confident that I can create this feeling that is going to build affinity with whatever I'm making or something like that.
- [18:15]
Rafael Konda
There's a lot of lessons that I just internalized from my early days as a designer building software, like, don't make users scroll or whatever, like labels everywhere. And all these things are great and good lessons because you're making software more accessible. At the same time, people are. They're more used to computers like new users as they were 20 years ago. Some of these things I've been trying to, like you said, like unlearn because like, oh, no, people have to swipe horizontally. They don't know how. We have to put pagination or whatever. And then you test it if you want and then you realize, oh, no, no, people are. People know how to scroll. They'll scroll like, it's fine. Apple removed the home indicator little grabber thing right from, from in iOS 26. Can you imagine being like the designer in me? Like, oh, no. But how will people know such a good example? You're right.
- [19:09]
Rid
And they did that for billions of people.
- [19:10]
Rafael Konda
Yeah, but at the scale, at that scale. And I'm sure people at Apple have the stats to back this up. I'm sure they've tested it because they're not a company that takes those big risks. No backlash. I haven't heard a single person, like real person, like not designers on Twitter. I haven't heard a single person be like, oh, no, I don't know. Now I don't know how to, to go back. You know, I wonder if there was
- [19:33]
Rid
a drop off in the beginning, though. You know, there had to be some moment of frustration, but they were like, you know what? We know this is going to be a learning curve, but people, it's a bet on people's ability to figure it out. And we know that this will be a better experience. We know that this is going to raise the ceiling so we're going to do it anyway, even if there is, like, a lull or a period of frustration. I love that example. I haven't thought about that in a long time, because that was a big decision.
- [19:53]
Rafael Konda
Yeah. And so some of those assumptions that I just grew up with, like, I have to challenge myself a little bit and, like, trust the user a little bit more. And as I'm saying this, I'm just like, it hurts on the inside because it goes against everything I've ever, like, taught or, like, learned. And, you know, like, no. Make it more and more accessible all the time. And I still, to a certain extent, agree to that. But also. But trust him a little bit. Users aren't all that dumb. Right. And to go back to Hideo Kojima, Metal Gear Solid, trust that they'll look in the back of the case at some point when the frustration is real.
- [20:26]
Rid
Can we get, like, really deep on the retro onboarding here for a second? Because I think your haptic idea is kind of genius, actually. And I think there's a lot of really good design, at least in my head. You know, when I'm, like, ideating, it's like, oh, this is gonna look or feel beautiful. But I think what is inspiring to me, listening to you talk, is you were designing from this core or, like, root realization that you wanted people to have in that moment. Like, the actual slowing down. Like, there was, like, a physical response almost, that you were trying to create in the design, which I think is so interesting. Like, how quickly did you arrive there? Like, can we just use that as a way to look at some of your creative process and how you're even thinking about going from, you know, the blank canvas of what do we want to do here to where you landed?
- [21:16]
Rafael Konda
Yeah, I'll prove that there's no genius here at all. Like, I started with I'll do a slideshow, because, one, it's easy to do, like, technically. Second, like, I knew I wanted haptics just because. Not because I wasn't at that point. I was not, like, because I want to make people feel that. No, it's more, like, because it makes it more dynamic and haptics are fun. Like, it makes it more interesting than just a video. So it started from there, like, okay, slideshow, because it's easy, and I can do it in haptics, because whatever. And then also, if I were to make a video and play a video file, then would be so hard to, like, sync the haptics with a video. Maybe there's a way I Don't know how to do that. So it's just like, I'll. I'll do what I. What I know how to do. So that's why, like, I settled on slideshow. And in slideshow, I, like, looked at a bunch of slideshows and, like, ad campaigns and stuff from, like, they use as a slideshow format because I was trying to, like, deconstruct it. My first take was, like, way too much motion. And I had, like, a little can burn effect and all that stuff, and I realized it's too much. And then I just analyzed, like, studied a bunch of other sideshows in ad campaigns, and I realized, like, oh, actually, no, there's no transition. There's no fades between the photos. No, it's just snap, snap, snap. Very easy. I do a slight Ken Burns on the whole thing. So not per photo, but the whole animation has a slow, like, zoom. I started there, and then I did the haptics. And then I realized with the haptics that I was actually feeling the pacing of the slideshow of the video. And then, like, I was doing, you know, we have a daily call with everyone on the team, and I was showing them, and we had builds and people were playing it and trying them. I'm pretty sure it was one of my co workers. It was Sean or Cheryl. But someone was like, we realized that we were feeling the pacing, and then we're, like, going over the story. Because at that point I only had the script, and I think one of them suggested, like, hey, it would be nice if we start faster and then we go slower. And then it all just fell into place a little bit. So it was not. I didn't have the whole idea and whole vision right at the start. It was like, I'll start doing the things I know how to do. And slowly, like, oh, yeah, that would be cool and doable. Oh, yeah, that would be nice. And everything was kind of like, everything's like a little accident of the process. Once we figure out the thing of, like, starting fast, ending slow, slowing down, then a lot of design decisions around it had that as, like, the goal. Then everything became easier. So, for example, when it was time for me to do the soundtrack, which is a very short little thing, but I started with, like, street noise. So at the top of the video, you hear the. The. The. It's like a little piano thing, which is, like, in itself a calming sound piece of music. But then I added a bunch of street noise. And, like, I think it was, like, at a restaurant or something. I Just went on, like, I don't know, copyright. Like, just free sounds. I could use, like. Yeah. And people talking and stuff. And then I would, like, slow that down a little bit. And then halfway through the video, you don't hear any. Any of that. Which pairs really nicely with the slowing down as well visually, with the sideshow, the physical aspect of it, with the haptics. And now the sound. Like, the sound is also kind of slowing down, focusing on the music and, like, removing noise. So once you got that motif, that, like, metaphor, everything else was just working around that, and it fell into place. And the whole thing is quite short. It's like, I think. I don't think even, like, seven seconds or something. I forget. No, genius is like, I'll just start with what I know how to do, talk to people, get other ideas, and then everything kind of falls in place.
- [24:38]
Rid
I like that it started with the haptics, too. Like, you didn't start from problem solving or, you know, how do I make this flow efficient? It's like, man, wouldn't it be cool if this thing buzzed and vibrated in my hand? How could I use that? And then you got to that place, and also, like, so often. I mean, that's my experience, too. It's like, maybe I'll spend days in search of the motif. And then you find the motif, and then everything just unravels from there. There's so much momentum in every direction.
- [25:01]
Rafael Konda
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [25:03]
Rid
Can we go a little bit deeper into retro for a second? I feel like we're winding, but I love this product. I'm curious.
- [25:09]
Rafael Konda
Thank you. Me too.
- [25:10]
Rid
Maybe a little bit. Why'd you join and give us a bit of context for it? But I'm really interested in, you know, your role specifically, because I know you kind of have this hybrid set of skills. So I'm interested to see what that looks like in a daily, weekly practice.
- [25:25]
Rafael Konda
I was looking around for a new job, a new thing to do. I was fortunate enough that, like, I was talking to some companies and products that I just use and adore, and they're great, but usually all of them were, like, big company. I've never done the big company thing, and I was convinced that, like, this is my time to do the big company thing a little bit. Based on the people I was talking to and based on also just, like, the state of the industry, it's not a good time to look for a job. It's tough out there. So I was not getting picky or anything. I was also considering very realistically just Doing my own stuff and going indie, which is also very. It's a big risk and it's very scary. And I feel like I have been considering this for years and years and I feel like with every new job search I'm like, could it be now? And so I was weighing these two. Either I go big company or go the other opposite and like, let me do indie stuff. And then the people at Retro approached me and I have been a user. I've been using that app since they started like in test flight way back, I think three years ago. Ish. Retro is like a what Instagram used to be. It's a, it's a private social network for friends and family. There's no ads, there's no influencers, there's. There's nothing. It's like a really small closed social network for friends and family to share. Just your day to day again, what Instagram used to be. But now you open Instagram and you're like fall down the hole of reels and ads and you know, you blink and an hour has passed like, what did what. What happened? And also, where are my friends? I haven't seen the same picture of friends. Anyway, so that's what Retro is. And I've been just such a big fan for so long. When they reached out, I was so stoked to also learn more company because I knew nothing, I don't think I knew anyone working there, you know, behind the company, behind the product. So then I got to know them and it's a very small team, I think six or seven. I know the complete opposite end of
- [27:21]
Rid
the spectrum from the big that you're considering.
- [27:23]
Rafael Konda
And it was like, it's one of the few like feel good apps that I, that I use genuinely day to day. It was also like a similar reason why I joined Sketch. Like an app that I just absolutely adore and I use. So it was like the same, the same motivation. Like this is an app that I like. It's a good product to exist in the world. Makes the world a little bit better, I think. And then I also discovered that the team itself, they don't just do Retro, they're trying to build a little portfolio of apps. They're like an app studio, if you will, in Retro is an app. But they recently also shipped, they built this app called Splat. The team, they were trying to play around with generative AI and just learn a bit. And so Splat is, is an app for iPad and iPhone as well. But you, you select a picture or like take a Picture of your kids and stuff. And it, with generative AI, creates like a coloring book, coloring thing for kids. And you can just like have the kids color in the app itself or how I use it. I just print it. So I just take a picture of my kids or like, they pick a funny photo and we create a little, like, cartoon version of it that they can color. And again, one of those apps that are like, feels good. This is nice. It's a nice thing. And because it's designed a little bit for K, no dark patterns, no weird, you know, upsells and ads and stuff, feels very simple, like very genuine without that pressure and burden of, like, design for scale and for business and for all that. So, anyway, so here comes Retro and this team and they're like, right in the middle. They're not a big company, but they're also not going indie. But it's doing the type of apps and the type of work that I think I would generally want to do in my free time if I had the resources and time. So it felt really nice. And then after I got to meet everyone, everyone's just a great team. So it was a no brainer for me to, to join. And I've been there for. I joined in February, so three months. We're six or seven people. We don't really have titles, but I, I think I'm. I'm a design engineer. That's my official. That's what's in the contract.
- [29:23]
Rid
It's the hot buzz word. Anyway.
- [29:25]
Rafael Konda
Yeah, they're like, all right, this guy knows how to code. And it was funny because it changed even from the time I was talking to people, like getting to know the team and was interviewing. And by the time I actually joined, it already changed in the sense that this other product designer, Sean, who at the time, when I would talk to them, they were like, yeah, I mean, we do primarily Figma and stuff, but I've been more and more with AI, like, working, building prototypes and stuff. And that's where he was. At least that's the impression I got the first time I spoke to him. Like, oh, okay, he's more of a traditional product designer who does mostly like, Figma stuff, but now with these AI tools, he's doing more and more prototypes and code. Cool. And then also spoke to Cheryl, who's been doing a lot of the marketing stuff and also doing some of the product design. But first time I spoke with her, she was not doing really anything with code. At least that's the impression I got. And right now everyone's doing everything because I thought, oh, I'm going to be the guy that's a designer who knows how to code. And now I was like, no, everyone knows how to code, kinda. We're all using AI tools, we're all building prototypes in code. Sometimes I build a prototype directly in the main app, like the code base. Sometimes I create little separate, like, you know, projects, Xcode projects for prototypes. But like Sean who was like, yeah, I'm starting to do some prototypes with AI now, like the, the most recent feature, the, the recap stickers, he built most of it, like the actual code that went into the production code. And now Cheryl is also doing a bunch of prototypes and building like opening PRs and stuff with some cool product features. It's, it's, it's fascinating to see. Also tricky to navigate because we see the risks. Sometimes we try to incorporate a whole prototype into production. Like actually this is quite buggy and hard to navigate and it's a bit messy. So we're learning and like two steps forward, one step back. Sometimes even myself, what I do when I have an idea and I have to think, am I going to do a Figma thing or am I going to do a separate prototype in code or am I going to go try and build this in a separate branch directly in the app? It's more like what's going to be faster. That's usually my go to, especially in early exploration phases, like where the goal is to communicate something. So sometimes the Figma thing is faster, but also not a lot of times I think the fastest. I'm at least the most efficient that I'm at is like in a separate isolated code project, you know, new Xcode project. That's my sweet spot. But sometimes I'm like, actually I need like real data or I need other features of the app to work with this. And sometimes it is just faster to like create a new branch of the main app and just pull from there. Whatever I decide to go, whatever the flow of the process, it ends for me. It ends with usually a video. It's like a medium production little video that I share on Slack because I feel like when you are working on something, you have the vision like you know what you're trying to do. I hope so. But you have the idea, the goal is to communicate this idea as cleanly as you can to someone else because you think it's awesome. So if you just do a perfect transfer of idea without losing anything, the other person is going to think it's awesome. As well, that's the ideal thing. And for me, I realized that the video is my most effective way of transferring an idea from one person to another. It's the format that there's the least loss of information around it. Because like if I just do a static mock up, here's a picture, there's a lot missing that might not make the transfer. Right. You know what I mean? If it's like a little video, there's motion, there's like a little prototype. All right, now we're to going, you're communicating more. Communicating out of flow, communicating animation. If there's some, right, you're doing more. If you do a whole prototype and you send them a building, like try it. Okay, you're doing more, communicating more. But for me, the video is like I can show you things, I can talk over it and just verbally tell you all the things that you should focus on, on what's important. I can communicate excitement. And then you pair that with like a very light, upbeat soundtrack or cool. Whatever. Whatever it is.
- [33:31]
Rid
You had soundtracks to it.
- [33:33]
Rafael Konda
Oh, dude. Yeah, I do like a little mini.
- [33:36]
Rid
Okay, go deeper here. What makes a good video? Talk about what is included in here. Because I've never added a soundtrack, but now I'm very interested.
- [33:42]
Rafael Konda
Oh, these are like the guidelines that I have to follow when I'm making one of these. It has to be like under 10 minutes. That's a rule. Because people are not gonna sit down and like watch a 30 minute video on Slack. Under 10, ideally 5. That's like the best little nugget. I'll sit through a five minute video. If it's an eight minute video, I'm like, maybe I'll watch it later when I have more time. You know, it's not as.
- [34:03]
Rid
I'll turn it up to 1.5 if it's eight minutes.
- [34:05]
Rafael Konda
Yeah, sure. So you do that. It's a short video. You do the soundtrack just because. Especially if there's a lot of talking. If it's just talking, it's more boring. Like there's no. If you add a little soundtrack upbeat thing, it keeps it interesting. And also if you're like, say that you're talking about one point and then you move to another point, you do a little soundtrack change. And now the person just feels like, okay, now it's a new thing. Like now it's a different thing, it feels different. And then you add some humor, you make some jokes, you make it funny to watch. And if it's funny, people will want to watch it because it's entertaining. Ultimately, it's that make it entertaining. They're paying attention. Like, they want to consume this. They want to see this. It's what. It's funny. It's cool. Make something that it's interesting, funny, and hopefully communicates the idea very well. Like, if I have this idea for a feature, don't just design the feature and share mockups. Don't just make a prototype and do a screen recording of you using the feature. Make an ad, right?
- [35:00]
Rid
Like, ooh, that's good.
- [35:02]
Rafael Konda
Sell this idea. If you're making, like, a new feature that it's like, oh, this would be so cool. Show someone using it. Make it look cool. If it's something that, like, oh, I think this would be very emotional, and, like, people really appreciate it. You make this app for parents and grandparents. Oh, make it emotional. Like, I went back to, like. Like, drop the. The Up. Pixar's up. Little soundtrack, you know? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
- [35:25]
Rid
Oh, man.
- [35:28]
Rafael Konda
That little piano. Piano composition thing, like, that itself. It's gonna create. Invoke emotion in you.
- [35:34]
Rid
Yeah.
- [35:34]
Rafael Konda
And maybe it's a cheap shot, but, like, hey, you know, whatever works, sell it. And so you might think, like, that's great, but I don't know how to do video. And that sounds like a lot of work. It might, but for me, it's not. And it's not because, like, oh, because I'm so good at it. It's because, like, you do it a bunch of times, and then it becomes easier, and, like, you just fake it and hack it. Like, it doesn't need to be perfect, but, like, just make it scrappy. Make it. Which can make it even more funny, you know? Anyway, I'm just saying that's something I still don't see a lot. I think it's very underutilized. But as designers, we're always trying to sell ideas and communicate ideas, and if you haven't been using videos as a way to sell those, try it.
- [36:13]
Rid
One thing that Dive Club has made abundantly clear to me over the last year is that the practice of design is.
- [36:18]
Rafael Konda
Is changing.
- [36:19]
Rid
And the old process of getting feedback just doesn't quite cut it in today's world. That's why I'm excited to announce that Inflight is officially in open beta. It's the feedback tool that I've always wanted, and it's built for a world that moves at the speed of AI, So I can share my prototypes, give context and video walkthroughs, and Inflight makes it Easy to get the exact feedback that I need to move forward, whether it's voting on directions or maybe even getting the green light to ship a new idea. And all of this is available in a single link that I can drop into Slack or maybe even share with power users to test out a new prototype. I use Inflight every day, and it's totally transformed the way that I share work. So I'm excited for you to try the product and if you ever want to jam about it, just email me at ridflight.co. i love that. And it ties back to something that was honestly one of the first probably 30 episodes I did that. I still think about where Gabe Valdivia talked about how the best designers are almost like little TikTok creators inside of their orgs. And you gotta entertain people in order to get, like, you know, buy in for your ideas. And it's like one of those skills that doesn't feel like it fits inside of the boundary lines of what a designer should be responsible for or how we should think about our craft and our practice. But if you lean into it, it's like, really, really valuable. And yet, I don't know, I don't hear a lot of people. I think it is, like you said, it's radically underutilized. And we talk a lot about, well, you know, frame the problem, you know, give good context. Like, yes, totally. But how can you make things entertaining? You know, music, humor. I think that's fascinating for somebody who is inspired, who's like, all right, I'm going to try this. They have no idea where to start. What, like, tools do you even use? Like, how does. How does somebody think about the very
- [38:01]
Rafael Konda
first video for screen recordings and stuff? If I'm doing, like a quick screen recording, I'll use screenflow mostly, even going one step back if it's something just very simple, very quick. And I'm not doing soundtracks or anything. I'm just recording the screen to show, like a prototype or whatever. I'll use Clean Shot. I'll just, you know, just record the screen. But then cleanshot has this feature for you to, like, add your camera as, like, picture in picture, a little circle of your. Your camera, which helps if you see a face help instead of just like a voice in the background. But that's not very funny or entertaining. So what I do is I don't use those. I just use. I open Hand Mirror. It's a great app. You should. Everyone should download it. I feel it's one of the best apps.
- [38:41]
Rid
I think Hand Mirror might Be one of the greatest apps ever made.
- [38:44]
Rafael Konda
Absolutely. Absolutely a legend. Anyway, I use hand mirror. Maybe people don't. I'm joking. I make. I'm not.
- [38:53]
Rid
We'll get you at the next question. Just keep going. You're doing great.
- [38:56]
Rafael Konda
Anyway, so what I do is I open hand mirror, and you have a little window, and I just, like, drag the window in the frame that I'm recording, right? I drag it in, I resize it. Even just the way you start the video. If you start a video saying, like, hey, everyone. So I want to show you this prototype that I made. That's one way you can go about it. You can do it that way, but you can also do, like, start recording the screen and then drag, like, a video, a hand mirror window with yourself in it, drag it in frame and say, hey, I want to show you a prototype of it. You know, it's kind of silly. You have to be comfortable with being a bit silly. Being a bit. It's okay. People will make fun of you. Do something like that. Which is a bit more scrappy, but it kind of makes it. It makes it a bit different, more entertaining again. But, yeah, so I use some of the clean shot screen flow for some basic, like, editing after the fact, after I record a screen. But then I use Kino a lot to just use my phone to record. I do B roll. Like, I've. I've noticed, like, so if you go on my Twitter and you see the. The video of that retro intro that we just talked about, I realized that if you show, like, a screen recording of the video, it has some emotional weight. But if you record someone holding the phone and seeing the same content hits different, it's more real. So a lot of times, most of the times, actually, instead of me recording, say, the simulator on the screen, I'll load it on my device. I hold my device, and I record me using the thing at, like, a slight angle. This makes it a bit more real. It's one thing to show what a character is looking at. It's another just to show the character's face reacting to what they're seeing. And it carries a different weight. Those little tips. Like, I do a lot of B roll. I do a lot of, like, me using the app, speaking of, like, making an ad. But if I'm trying to say, like, okay, so imagine you come home from work and you sit at your desk and you open this app. I'll record myself coming in and sitting at my desk and opening the app. No way. Just so you can see that as you're.
- [40:48]
Rid
That's cool.
- [40:49]
Rafael Konda
As I'm saying it, you see it also, again, makes it a bit more entertaining. So, yeah, use your phone, record some video, record videos of your phone, and then do little edits. I use Final Cut because I'm a boomer. I'm not a boomer, but I'm. Sometimes I feel like one.
- [41:04]
Rid
You keep trying to date yourself.
- [41:07]
Rafael Konda
I'm not that old, but I do feel very old. Right. So every time I say I'm not that old, I have to. I feel very old. We started talking about Leopard. That's how you opened this podcast. You started Snow Leopard. I'm like, no older than that.
- [41:20]
Rid
Oh, man. Let's talk about Hand Mirror and the bucket of personal projects, because we've talked a lot about personal expression and software and creating things that make people feel something and how much of a motivating factor that's been in your career. And I think you've had a lot of opportunities to really lean into that because you're designing for kind of yourself in some ways. So are there examples from personal products that we could kind of go deep into to really look at? Like, given this desire to create software that makes people feel something and add that surprise and delight that is a reflection of even who you are as the creator, what does that look like in practice? Are there places or things that you've made where you're like, yeah, this is where I really reached for that feeling.
- [42:06]
Rafael Konda
It's one thing that I'm still trying to figure out. I don't know what the answer is. If I somehow knew that no one is going to see my work, if it would look different or not, I don't know the answer.
- [42:15]
Rid
Interesting. Yeah.
- [42:16]
Rafael Konda
I just know that, like, all the little apps that I make on the side, my side projects, I started with the assumption that no one's going to use this. They're usually very niche and 100% started as me scratching my own itch. Like, I. I want an app that does this. So I start building it, and right from the start, I start building it already. With, like, yeah, but I'll make an app out of it. Like, I'll distribute it. I'll put it in the store. Like, it's going to be a product, but it always starts with. With, I need it. I want this app to exist. Sometimes they already exist, but, like. But differently so, like, yeah, no, maybe there's already apps that open the camera, but, like, I feel like I can make it even simpler. I want to do it. I Want it to work in a certain way. The journey, like building the thing is fun and making it funnier and more. More entertaining as the process of building it. It's kind of like my. Like my. My currency, my fuel. Like, if I don't want it, I don't want to build something. I don't have the motivation and energy. Either I won't do it or I'll do a bad job at it. So find ways that would make me motivated, excited to do certain things. And like Hand Mirror is by far my most popular side project. It's the. The only one that really like, broke out of the little, like, nerd circle that I'm in. It started like, just during COVID I was. I wanted to check my camera before joining video calls. And nowadays Zoom and Google Meet and all of that. Like, I think they. They have this feature where you, before joining in the call, you can see your camera feed. But at the time, that was. That didn't exist. Was it because of Hand Mirror? Who knows? No one knows. No, but. So I wanted to check my camera and I was opening Photo Booth. So I use Raycast or Spotlight at a time and I'll do pho. Eventually, Photo Booth would appear. I would hit Enter Spotlight and those type of apps learn from your behavior. So if you do ph and then you hit and you select Photo Booth, it'll promote that to the top spot. So every time you do phone, Photo Booth is there. But I don't want Photo Booth to be the tough spot. I want photos. Like, that's. If you do pH, my brain's like, expect photos. So I was annoyed at that fact that Photo Booth is being used so often. And like, I don't want to do this. So I'm like, I want to build a thing that you click a button in the menu bar and you see your camera. That was it. And I built that before AI y'. All. I did this by hand. Anyway. It was a. It's the simplest app possible. This is like a. This is like a little demo project, really. It was so simple, in fact, that when I submitted to the App Store, it got rejected because it's too simple of an app. I need to add more stuff.
- [44:53]
Rid
No way.
- [44:53]
Rafael Konda
Yeah. Never heard before. It's like, okay, I don't know what else to add. It like, this is the app. I don't. So it was not in the App Store when I launched it. I just put it on the website. And then because Covid and because, I don't know, the Verge picked it up. And wrote about it. And then it blew up. And after the fact, I was like, all right, I really want to put in the App Store because I didn't even build, like, a way of updating the app. So then I added some more stuff. I added an about page and a settings page. And I kind of like came up with. Forced myself to have settings. So I had, like, little icons, different icons or whatever. And then apparently that was enough for Apple to, like, allow it in the App Store. This is like, the simplest app possible, and there's not much for you to play around with. But I'm like, okay, I have an about page. What should I do in the about page? Oh, show the icon and the name and the version name. And then like, yeah, but let me add some, like, credits. So it was like, created by and special thanks to and all that stuff. And then the app icon was like a little mirror with, like, the photo booth curtain. That was, that's why we had the red curtain. And I thought, wouldn't it be nice if here I can move the curtain and then you could see yourself in the app icon because it's a mirror. So I'll do, like, the camera view from there. And so you. And then you do it. And yeah, that's funny. I mean, it's a little thing, but, like, yeah, that's cool. And then like, hey, wouldn't it be funny if, like, I designed myself into a corner where, like, if you unlocked hand mirror plus, which everyone should do. Actually, one of the best things for my career is when you. I unlocked hand mirror plus, that was. Yeah, everyone should do it. I think.
- [46:23]
Rid
I'm proud to say that I did it.
- [46:24]
Rafael Konda
I did it.
- [46:25]
Rid
I did it.
- [46:25]
Rafael Konda
Of course. And that's why you're one of the greatest. Worth it. It's the reason. Anyway, so I, I designed myself into a corner where I put that as a toggle. So, like, if you subscribe, it turns on the toggle. And then I thought, oh, wait, but you can't unsubscribe. So I was lazy. Also, I'm very lazy, so I don't want to design something else. So I was like, hey, maybe the toggle, if you try to turn it off, it shakes. It says, no, sorry, you can't do that. So that's what I did. I was like, if you try, it just shakes. Sorry, no take backsies like, you. You have it. So a lot of these little things, like, hey, wouldn't it be funny? Just do it. If you think in a side project, in that type of, like, no pressure. Who cares? Do it. When it was time for me to come up with a name for the unlockable Hand Mirror or whatever, I was like, henry plus Handmare plus, because everyone's doing the plus or Hand Mirror Pro, right? But should it be plus or, like, the plus sign or the word plus? And I was just. I don't know. And then I. I wanted to test in the ui. So, like, I built the thing where if you clicked on it, it would switch the. The string, the label, so I just. I could look at it. And. And I'm like, well, that's kind of funny. And then. And then I added more, like Hand Mirror Ultra, Hand Mirror plus plus, and Mirror Whatever. I just started adding more and more. And then if you clicked on it, it would switch the labels. Like, oh, that. Actually, that would be funny if people could switch the name. And then I thought, where else in the app do I show the name Henry Mirror plus. So then I. Everywhere in the app. If you click on the label, it changes the name. And then I hand mirror 3000. Whatever I could come up with.
- [48:00]
Rid
That's good.
- [48:01]
Rafael Konda
I was watching 30 rocks. They're like, hand Mirror Juror. I don't know if you know that. Like, whatever. If I think it was, like, just a tiny bit, like, a little bit funny, add it. So these things, like, it just makes the process of building it a bit easier. It's a bit more entertaining, even if it's just. Because then you can, like, take a screenshot and tweet about it. That's funny. So totally do it. If you think, like, wouldn't it be funny? Do it. Just. Just do it. Why not?
- [48:29]
Rid
Yeah. It's one of the things that makes me so excited about the era that we're in right now is you see way more designer side projects because you didn't have to earn the ability with the years of coding under your belt. And even if you have no idea how any of it works, you can still kind of make something. So you have this surface area where you can do the kind of personal expression. Because I remember. Gosh, I don't remember what I would have been using. Maybe it was Hand mirror. I can't remember when I found your stuff, but then I was like, who is this guy? And then I click through to your website and it's you, like, leaning over the. The hero section and, like, waving and trying to, like, shoot me on. I'm like, you know what? This is funny. Humor is a big part of a user experience, you know, like, we don't think about it. It's like, humor isn't UX design. It's like. No, no, actually, it's like a core tenet of a lot of your side projects, and it's what makes them good in many ways.
- [49:18]
Rafael Konda
To go all the way back. Look at us, professionals, podcasters, and tying up everything to go back to the beginning, doing something that makes people feel something. If you do something that's funny, it makes people laugh. I mean, not necessarily out loud, but if you're like, huh, that is a feeling. Like, finding something funny makes you feel like it's funny. And that's one. One way of making people feel it. Feel your work, feel something. And if you make people feel something, it's way more memorable. You will remember the things that made you feel a certain way. Not necessarily the things, they're like, oh, man, it was such a fast workflow, that app 10 years ago, remember? No, you don't. And I'm not saying that those things aren't important. They are very important. But, like, the emotion that will stay the thing on my website again. I designed myself into a corner again because now people liked it and now I don't. I don't have a better idea.
- [50:13]
Rid
You can't change it.
- [50:14]
Rafael Konda
I add the green screen because a friend of mine sent me a green screen to Marissa. I want to give a shout out because we worked together at Netlify and one day she sent me a green screen and changed my life. Anyway, so then I did that and, like, well, since I'm here and I say hi, what else am I gonna do? How do I leave, right? Or do I loop this video? That's. It's never nice to see a looping video. So then I did, like, okay, maybe it'll be funny again, Breaking the fourth wall and things like where I get bored. Or, like, it gets awkward. It gets awkward. So in my website, I jump out to say hi, and then I get really awkward because, like, why are you still looking at me? Please scroll. And if you did scroll, which is what you should be doing, then you don't see me get awkward, so it's not awkward, so it's okay. But if you stay there and you look at me, don't do it. Don't be creepy. But, like, yeah, I get awkward. And then I try to tell you, like, go away. And then I leave. And then if you just wait, I eventually come back and like, why are you still here? And then I. So I really pushed that to the max as far as I could. Go. But again, it's just because it was easy. It's way easier for me to make a video than it is to, like, create a super cool animation interactive hero section because I'm lazy and I don't know how to do that stuff. So I'm like, well, I'll do the video because that's easy.
- [51:32]
Rid
Can we talk to somebody who is inspired by this conversation? They want to tap into this new strain of what their work can be. You know, they don't feel this. This connection to output right now. And maybe the reason is because they're working somewhere that feels a lot more like netlify than retro. And they're kind of hunting for, like, what do I even do with this? You know, do you have any thoughts for that person to go back?
- [51:55]
Rafael Konda
It's that. That feeling. Wouldn't it be funny like, 99 of the times? Like, yeah, it would. But no, come on. There's a lot of reasons why we should. Shouldn't do whatever, but always chase those little ideas. Like, don't. Wouldn't it be funny? Like, okay, maybe show me. Like, do a little mock. Do a little prototype. Like, what are you thinking? Would it be funny? Is that. If that's a question you ask yourself, like, answer it. Give it a try. Do you think it's funny? If you think it's funny, that's good enough for me. By the way. I always, like, design for myself in that sense. Like, I'm not trying to do. All right now here, try to be funny here and tell a joke like, you know what I mean? Like, if someone even to comedians, like, hey, make me laugh, I bet they struggle. They can't. I don't know. That's not how it works. You can't be like, hey, be meaningful. Hey, be funny. I can't do that. So it's more like, don't force it. Don't try to do something meaningful here. Just put yourself in a state where you are open to those moments instead of looking at a screen, oh, this is an empty state. Hey, empty states are great for these type of connections. Because empty states are like, well, it's empty. It's fine. There's nothing to show. So we're already like, do illustrations, you know, that was how I think the industry started. But like, instead of. Instead of trying to force something, just make yourself vulnerable and open to these moments. So as you're designing, be like, hey, wouldn't it be funny? Or wouldn't this be something? And then chase the them, but don't force them. Maybe, like, I think this is fine to say, but, like, maybe you're not the type of person that is going to do funny work. I don't know.
- [53:33]
Rid
That's what I was thinking. I'm like, I don't know if I naturally go to that place, but I. Yeah, no, I'm trying to find little.
- [53:39]
Rafael Konda
But just be human. Yeah, just be human. Be available and open to these little interactions, like, little emotions. We talked about the video in Retro. That's not funny. If you feel a certain way about certain ideas, other people will probably feel similarly. So if you have an idea that would be like, oh, actually, this would be really meaningful. Oh, actually, this would be really, like, different. Oh, actually, this would be very creative. Oh, actually, this is really cool. Like, cool is also super powerful.
- [54:07]
Rid
Yeah, cool.
- [54:09]
Rafael Konda
Cool is great. Wouldn't this be cool? Yeah, Try it.
- [54:12]
Rid
The human word. That's the word that I'm latching on to right now. Because I'm not fun money. I'm not going to win people's hearts with humor in my design. That's not where I spike at all. But I want to tap into this in little ways. And I think the.
- [54:26]
Rafael Konda
The human.
- [54:26]
Rid
Where my brain went when you said human is, like, really intentionally imagining one other person using this. Like. Like what? What would make them happy? What would make me happy? What would catch me off guard? You said the surprise and delight, obviously incredibly overused, but there's a reason we keep coming back to it. You know, there's something there. A little example that I don't know. It's kind of silly. It's not meaningful, but. But I liked it, and it made me feel good, is I was designing this state where only one person, like the owner of this project in inflight could make a change. And so it was like, are you this person? If yes, sign in. And when you hover over the sign in button, the text changes, and a little, like, emoji hand, like, kind of waves, and it just says, oh, hi, Rafa. You know, and it was like, it's such a. Like, a small little detail, but I was like, yeah, I like that. You know, And I'm trying to find little things like that where it does nothing. But honestly, now with how easy it is to build a lot of this stuff, like, it took me 30 seconds. It took me 30 seconds.
- [55:25]
Rafael Konda
I was like, why not?
- [55:26]
Rid
I tried it and I was like, yeah, I like that. I'm leaving that in there.
- [55:28]
Rafael Konda
Okay. Yeah. So that. That actually gives me an idea. Just like when designers are starting out and I honestly, I don't know if FMI advice is still. Still relevant in this AI world. Whatever. But, like, when designers starting out, I would always say, like, hey, you don't need have your own style yet. You don't really know. You don't know anything. You're just figuring this out or whatever. One great way to start is pick something that you think is great. It's nice. You like and, like, throw it in Sketch or figma and recreate it and just. Just going through that motion of, like, laying out elements in the screen, in the page. You are slowly learning about padding and basic layout. And like, oh, yeah, all these things are aligned here, right? Just by the act of recreating things you like helps you learn those things. It's kind of like, you know how if you force yourself to smile, you will feel happier? Like, you'll feel happy. If you're really sad right now, you're really in a bad place. Force yourself to laugh and smile. Even though it's fake, it's. You're forcing yourself to do it. The act of doing it actually makes you feel better. It makes you feel slightly happier. So it's a little bit like that. Like, you are not designing the screen. I mean, you're just, like, tracing over it. You're recreating it. But the act of doing it makes you learn some things. Like, you know, there's some stuff that stays. And I feel like in this case, instead of. Maybe it would be more useful instead of telling you, like, oh, if you have an idea, do it. It's more like, put yourself in a state where when you see these little interactions from other products from other people, make a note of it. Oh, yeah. I was using Red's thing and I then I hovered and I did a little wave emoji. That was nice. That was cute. Whatever emotion it is, make a note. Maybe make it. Like, save it somewhere. Maybe there you have a folder somewhere where you save these screenshots. Or maybe you have Apple notes. Just write it down. Oh, yeah, I did a thing, read the website. That was cool. Like, I remember I was reading a blog post. This is years ago. I'm really old, but, like, I forget when I remember that I read a blog post and it was a really nice piece, and at the end it had their signature, like the author, like, Like a. Like a vector signature. And I remember thinking, that's so cool. That's cool. You don't see it. Why? Because nowhere else in the page, there's like some kind of handwriting or Anything but, like, the signature. That's cool. And so guess what I did it for. One of my first side project was a Apple Watch app. Like a game, Apple Watch game called Break the Safe. And then I wrote like a case study of it. And if it was like a long piece of writing, whatever, I don't usually do it. And in the end, guess what? I did a little signature thing. I converted a vector and I threw it in there because. All right, a little detail. That's nice. Be on the lookout, like when you're browsing through Twitter or whatever. We're gonna see, we're gonna. We get exposed to many things. So much good work. But some of the work will be like, oh, this is cool. Like, just make a note, save it. And then just by doing that, next time you're doing something similar. Next time I was writing a blog post, I'm like, oh, you know what? I remember that someone did a signature, and that was like. Like classy. That felt so cool. I'll do it.
- [58:30]
Rid
Rafa. I think we could talk for hours. I genuinely enjoy everything about this conversation. And in a world where, I don't know, so much of the discourse is about robots and scale and efficiency and all of the new technology, this was a very human conversation that I appreciated. And everything about your perspective is life giving and enjoyable. So thank you for taking the time today.
- [58:53]
Rafael Konda
Thank you. This is. This is a blast. Love talking to you. Thanks for having me.