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Transcript106 lines
- [00:00]
Sarah Vienna
These conversations wildly so go so far from, like, a superficial, like, amazing, like, make it pop, make it pretty, like, brand fun, bling, bling, motion down to philosophy so fast for me, because I can't not think about all of these things all at once in the moment that we're in.
- [00:19]
Rid
That's a small subset of design, but there's endless opportunity for innovation and new patterns even within that tiny little bucket.
- [00:27]
Sarah Vienna
If you don't have a little bit of shit being talked about you on design Twitter, I feel like, have you really made.
- [00:32]
Rid
This is the greatest leveling of the playing field of all time.
- [00:36]
Sarah Vienna
I am a staunch believer that the people who know how to get the outcomes from these tools are the ones that are going to make the things that win.
- [00:45]
Rid
Welcome to Dive Club. My name is Rid, and this is where designers never stop learning. This week's episode is with Sarah Vienna, who's the chief Design Officer at metalab. So we're going to talk about the response, responsibility that designers have to shape this AI world that we're entering and what it's going to take to make people feel something about the products that you design. Now. This is also one of the more raw conversations that I've had on this show. I mean, we do not hold back about the current state of the industry and what it feels like to be a designer today. But before we get into all of that, I wanted to learn more about their recent work for Windsurf and what it takes to inject meaning at the heart of a brand.
- [01:30]
Sarah Vienna
Whether you like it or not, it has been a brand that's been really incredibly well received. And so we're stoked to be part of it and stoked to be a partner with brands like that who really want to say something that's differentiated than all of the trends that you see out there and try to do something that feels decidedly different and opinionated, whether or not design Twitter likes that opinion. We've gotten some incredible feedback from people we have so much respect for, but there's always kind of the naysayers, too. And one of my favorite quotes is, this looks like a gay wedding threw up on tech or something like that. It was, like, amazing. I love that, you know, if you don't have a little bit of shit being talked about you on design Twitter, I feel like, have you really made it? You know?
- [02:19]
Rid
Yeah, you messed up. You got to have at least a little bit of pushback. It has to be just a dash of polarizing.
- [02:24]
Sarah Vienna
Just a dash. This is not me. This is the team who made this? The team really work to understand with a client, like, what does it feel like to interact with the product? Like, what do we really want to communicate? What is the difference of using this tool compared to others? And how do we make that promise in a brand that's visually exciting, that feels fun and wearable and fresh and like something you haven't seen before, a little bit cheeky all at the same time? And how do you make it also feel sophisticated enough so people trust it and trust our process? I do think that a big test of a brand is like, does it feel like something you could wear and people would wear? We're getting so much demand for all of this swag, which is awesome. And, you know, being able to have that product really pay off the brand promise and the experience and how you use it is going to be really exciting and it's going to be exciting to see how it evolves as the news evolves with where they're going. So, yeah, great, great partner to work with and we're stoked for them.
- [03:24]
Rid
Real quick message and then we can jump back into it. I know a lot of you, like me, are animating in jitter, so I have some good news. You can now speed up reviews by sharing and responding to feedback directly inside of your files. Each comment is timestamped and also synced across the canvas and timeline, so it's always in context. And you can even mention people so it's easy to bring the right teammates into the conversation. It's just another reason why I love animating in Jitter. And comments are officially live for everybody. So you can head to Dive Club Jitter to check it out today. So I've been playing with Paper for image editing and it's pretty legit. They support all of the best models and everything exists on a persistent canvas, so you can see your generation history and easily fork from old ideas. Just select anything you want, type your prompt and generate variations. And one of my favorite parts is you can then right click and vectorize that creation without having to use a separate tool. It's a huge unlock for creativity and just another reason why I'm so excited about Paper as the next great design tool. You can start using it today. Just head to Dive Club slash paper. Okay, now on to the episode. You know, you talk a lot about the importance of meaning, so maybe we could go a little bit deeper, either with Windsurf as the example or other client projects. Because I think my goal is to understand what it means to you to inject meaning at the heart of a brand or digital experience, I think that's.
- [05:02]
Sarah Vienna
What a lot of us are. Not to be emo, but that's what we're searching for, right? Like, where do I spend my time, my attention, my money? Your attention does equal money. And what does it do for my life? Does it make my life toxic or does it make my life better? And as an end user right now, you still get to decide that. Therefore, when we're designing brands and products, they need to make meaning for people on the other side of that interaction. So it's really about tapping into what do these people need. And understanding what people need is definitely an exercise in understanding how to properly do the right amount of research, just the right amount, right? And then interacting with people day to day to understand their specific use case and then figure out how do you take and pattern make that into something that's an experience people will love. How will people love it? You're developing meaning through hitting on something that solves their pain point. But at the end of the day, it's just a simple human truth. And finding that simple human truth for your audience, no matter where they are, no matter who they are, is how you make meaning. But you can't just rest on that. You have to constantly be curious about the way that those users and audiences are changing and evolve your product in real time with them. Because if you don't, you'll get left in the dust.
- [06:25]
Rid
I love that, like this co participation, especially in a world where I feel like every single time I open up Twitter, there's a beautiful brand redesign launch. So how do you stand out in that sea of beauty and polish?
- [06:39]
Sarah Vienna
Yeah, it's overwhelming these days because there's so much craft out there and talent. And also you kind of want to take a look at it and go, okay, well, what's beyond that superficial layer and what's happening in the background that really delivers the value? So it's one thing to have like a super sexy visual design, but it's another to have the entire experience pay off, end to end, whatever that. And that's where the form and function conversation really comes in. You gotta get people in the heart with like, okay, I identify with that. I want to see what this thing is about. Visually that resonates, right? Like what they're saying to me resonates like, they get me, but the other side is really paying off. Like in their head, are you delivering on the value that their brain is basically going to ascribe to you or not ascribe and so it's the challenge of the head and the heart and user experience that I think designers are so incredible at tapping into. And that's why I'm super excited for us right now and what's happening in our space because we inherently understand that and we're champions of it all of the time. That's why we earned a seat at the big ass boardrooms, right? It's because we have been championing getting deep down to that seat of deeply suited user needs to be able to deliver something that actually can drive value for a business. Those two aren't always directly aligned, but when you can find that, you can really hit and find at the end of the day, that is product market.
- [08:08]
Rid
The word resonating is still sticking out to me too, because I'm even thinking about the different ways that you can create something that resonates with people. And I like that you jumped right to the user experience and more of this holistic picture of what a brand is and the products underneath that umbrella than even something that is a little bit more identity focused. Because I think almost the opposite of what a representation that would resonate with me right now is like, you know how you see too many of the like founder letters now on websites where it's like three paragraphs and then like the signatures below and it's like, that was really cool in the beginning. It's like, wow, they're speaking directly to me. And now it's like it feels cheap. So there's almost a novelty that you have to find. Like, what's the unique way that we can express the underlying human truths behind this product and brand? And that to me is what makes it so challenging. And what brings me to the point where when I see this new release, I'm like, wow, they tapped into something. Like, there's something here that really speaks to me.
- [09:11]
Sarah Vienna
And also what's going to speak to you right now might not be what spoke to you last year. You know, maybe last year you were like into, I don't know, like minimalism in your digital life and kind of chilling out and trying to go touch grass as much as you can could. And right now people just want to have fun again, you know, just want to have fun. Like you look at a Windsurf or a Suno and you know, somebody, maybe somebody doesn't like that color palette, maybe somebody thinks we went too far with A, B or C and how we executed the look and feel. But you cannot deny that you look at those and you're like, okay, that looks like I'm gonna have some fun. There are other times where you have to totally pull back and not lean into fun. Maybe it's about being a lot more restrained and austere about it, all for the right kind of experience. But that's, again, getting back to that. Like, what is that deeply seated need that you're trying to address and how do you make that resonate from an interaction and visual perspective.
- [10:08]
Rid
Is there anything that you all are doing at Metalab to make sure that you don't get swept away with the trend du jour and going too far into what the visual expression of fun is for that, you know, two, three month period on Twitter?
- [10:22]
Sarah Vienna
That's such a good question. I think that the teams naturally do that. Like, I'm a nerd for my team all day. They're self regulating, which I mean, like, on our slack. It's like, here's this trend and somebody will post it, right? And then somebody will come in with a hot take and be like, I'm so over that. Right?
- [10:40]
Rid
Yeah.
- [10:40]
Sarah Vienna
Like, oh, really? Tell me more. No, it's not this. That's the great execution of it. It's that. And they'll just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And seeing that interaction and being super kind to each other about the critique, but really hard on the work, whether that's work on the outside or whether that's our work, it's just a natural muscle that most people have. And, you know, some people are a lot more chatty than others, right? Myself included. But seeing that interaction kind of means, like, you can see the team self regulating and developing a taste profile together, which is really cool too, because then it's like the collective is raising their craft together while there are some big voices and like, you know, a lot of our really, I don't like using words like rockstar or whatever, but like, our designers who are like, you know, everybody looks up to chime in and, like, everybody's developing that POV together. So it's pretty cool.
- [11:40]
Rid
In some ways, bad taste is more exemplified in putting out a trend that people are already tired of than putting out something that is actually just kind of bad. You know, it's like if you come across as chasing and just a little bit behind, it's like, ah, man, this. This isn't it anymore. You know, and so especially as I feel like these cycles are just accelerating, right? Like, it's becoming so easy to remix and draw inspiration. And we have this public town square where everything is shared, and it's very tempting to chase trends and very, very easy to create something that becomes outdated quickly.
- [12:22]
Sarah Vienna
You can almost be like, well, do I care? Like, if it's well executed and it makes sense for what you're trying to communicate and the principles of the design, do you care if you used a trend? And I would say if well executed, you probably don't, as long as it still, you know, hits with that end user. But you also have to be flexible and ready to change if you do have a brand that leans far trend into something that shifts it if, for example, the landscape is changing, you know, and I do think that with how fast we're moving right now, brands are going to become a lot more generative than Pixel Perfect. And brands are going to have to break out of that, you know, neatly tidily documented PDF that was very expensive, especially back in the day, to become something that is a lot more malleable based on what they need to communicate and what really matters for their end user while still keeping at the core of who they are. And I think that the best design leaders have to walk that line all the time and should be. That's why the job isn't easy.
- [13:27]
Rid
Let's go a little bit deeper there then. So on this shift from Pixel Perfect to generative, what are some of the ways that you think that that evolves the regular practice of design?
- [13:37]
Sarah Vienna
If you're deep on design Twitter an X, you're seeing people who were just sharing left and right parts of their process. What works, what doesn't is definitely a good, bad, the ugly. Right? And we have a lot of that sort of mentality of kicking the tires at Metalab, which is so fun to see because it's almost like a new school version of Dribble. Oh, you did that with this. Let me go show you how I did this with that. Right. And that's really fun to me to have that camaraderie, but also just like a little bit of light competition to see what will change our game as designers. But then it's also about, like, how are we creating experiences that are no longer about that rigid design system that had to be just so in order to conform to the brand? Because the results that we're going to start seeing that are coming out of these AI driven experiences will have to accommodate that in a more fluid way. I don't think we've hit that yet. I don't think that the design community has hit what that means. A lot of conversations are happening around like, right, we're gonna bust out of that Chat interface. Right. And so the question is, like, what's that application of the interaction that makes the most sense? Chat is natural language. And so natural language is what is working right now for how the technology has advanced. But, you know, my bet is that we're gonna continue to push those boundaries of that interaction, but it shouldn't be just because you can. What is the reason that we're breaking these patterns? And then how do we. It becomes something that feels even more natural than what we do today and how we interact today. So something we definitely think about a lot and always challenge the right client who's willing to go there with us.
- [15:22]
Rid
Yeah, there's, like, this pressure to be novel when all of the technology is so novel. Like, it's a really interesting tension between the most novel technology that we've really ever had and in the manifestation of that has just been chat, which is like, that was AOL messenger. Was like, how I was raised on the Internet. You know, I've been doing this interaction my entire life, and I do feel like, as an industry, we put a lot of pressure on. Well, we gotta push past. We gotta push past. And now there's been a little bit more of a settling where it's like, well, I mean, this is kind of nice. A lot of ways this does make sense. And so there's less of a race to break out. And I feel like we're experiencing a little bit more intentionality.
- [16:03]
Sarah Vienna
We're such visual creatures at the end of the day, you know, so it's kind of like, yeah, you want to challenge that. Like, one of the designers on my team literally had her design patented, and I was like, hats off to you as a designer, that is. And I can't tell you what, but, like, that is an amazing thing to have done in your career. You deserve this. You came up with this interaction and this way to just display X, Y, and Z. Amazing on you. Like, I was like, I hope you sit in that for a minute and celebrate. That is truly novel. And so I think we're looking for that next thing, you know, and for as much as we might bag on the Tinder swipe, like, we're still searching for what that next interaction is totally, you know, for user experience. That becomes something that becomes, like, second nature. And, like, your muscle memory already learns it and knows how to interact. So it's also fun. Right. Like, I think it is about chasing the next thing for a lot of us, and that is part of how we find purpose and meaning in doing this work. And I Think that that's okay. Like, knowing that part of that process is to potentially try, fail, not always hit it, but when you do, it feels amazing. Like, that's what I think a lot of people say, stay in design. Even though it's a really weird time for design.
- [17:27]
Rid
Oh, yeah. I mean, if we were just assembling patterns that we know work forever and ever, I would be out. You know, that's why I'm so. I'm so grateful for AI in many ways, because it does introduce a lot of new requirements. Even something that's come up on the show that I've been reflecting on recently is like, the way we think about loading states is totally different now. Totally different in an AI world where there is a level of latency that requires some creativity and, you know, you don't know how much you're even going to load in to the page and it's like, okay, that's a small subset of design, but there's endless opportunity for innovation and new patterns even within that tiny little bucket. And so I think you're right. Like, the best designers are the ones that are going to at least try to push past the known conventions. And if you do fall back to what works great, that's totally fine. But, man, I don't want to live the life of someone who is just pulling from all of the same patterns at all times that I've been using my entire career totally.
- [18:27]
Sarah Vienna
It is the idea, like, in our process of, like, AI doing our laundry, right? Like, I didn't get into this field to push stuff around. Like, I'm not saying that, like, people who love that and love, like, pushing pixels and production design, like, that's amazing. And we still very much need it, right? Like, it's still a needed thing, but it's being able to use a tool like AI to help that process along faster and making it more efficient and even, like, you know, hopefully someday when it gets good enough, like, cleaner and tighter to the spec that needs to be shipped. Right? The thing about all of this that I love is it opens up more space for creativity, hypothetically. And that's what's really cool about using AI in your workflow and how it's going to change our workflow in the future. So then it's like, okay, well, if I've got this extra creative time, what am I going to do with it? I am going to obsess about that load state. I'm going to sit there and think about, what is this brand? What is it trying to say to Users, how do I educate people? How do I add transparency in the background for what's going on so that people are informed and so that they trust the results that they're about to see? There's so much even in that one state that the impact in a way that we haven't even, I think, cracked into. So agreed. Why not? Like, it's a. It's a whole new world you can build for people if you've got that kind of headspace.
- [19:51]
Rid
I want to get into the whole new world piece maybe first. I kind of want to drill into how you all are working, because something that you mentioned earlier to me was how you're doing a lot of explorations around different applications of AI. So either any learnings that you're able to share there, or different ways or workflows that you've used to move the needle.
- [20:12]
Sarah Vienna
With AI, a lot of people are kind of getting their paces of what it looks like from like a generative perspective. You know, I've seen some people do some really cool stuff with like, divergent visual design. So really, like going as far as you can, even as far as to make your client uncomfortable far. Could it be because you can get there so much faster? And so where, you know, usually it's like, we're designers. We like Rules of Grayson. We usually present three directions that we start to whittle down into one. Maybe you're. You're trying on the size of 10 directions and then you self edit internally before you show those three winners instead of spending time on the three. Now, do we have to be really careful with that? A thousand percent. Like, you've got to be so critical about the outputs that you're getting. And if you don't have somebody at the helm who knows how to prompt and who knows how to edit, like hell, then you're gonna just get like, crap on crap. Because that's what I mean. The models are trained off of the entire Internet, like, let's be honest. And so you're gonna get that, like, absolute, like, dissolution of quality and creativity into something that's a big nothing burner. And so what you have to do is figure out how do we use these tools to get you into that way where you can really shape it towards something that's super opinionated. So those are like, early days, but then there's even execution that's been really fun. How do we hook up NCP to Storybook and, like, have our design systems function so much faster? I'm not quite getting this animation right. So Let me go talk to Claude about it. There's so many ways that are sprinkled into the process that our team is using. But it's funny, like, just talking with my team today about this, but we've got processes, but sometimes people will be like, oh, my gosh. Sometimes it feels like anarchy, like, there's no process at Metalab. There's a lot of reasons why that might feel that way, but I am allergic to saying, like, this is the process, and this is so right. Like, that's silly to me. I think that some of the best designers in the world work at Metalab, and they should be able to define what they want to use and when. But also, we got to really make sure that we're shouting out when someone. Something's working, because we might run any, you know, 20 projects at any given time or whatever. And if Project A isn't talking to Project Z, they don't know that that's working well. So that's the big importance of people sharing their work, learning from it, and then people making those connections to where those things are really hitting and working. That's so important because we'll also say there's so much out there on the Internet that it's, like, a lot of noise. But if you can filter down the noise with, like, a bunch of people you trust, I think you can move a lot faster. Which is like, that's what I'm seeing right now in the way that we're working with AI in our process.
- [23:00]
Rid
I mean, if you tried to codify workflows at this point in the S curve of AI, like, you're just. You're gonna fail, too. You know, it's. Everything's so crazy. There's a million ways to do things for the first time. It even kind of goes back to what you were saying before, where you talked about Twitter as the new dribble, which is totally true. But there is this different element where there's not just a curiosity in the end output. There's a curiosity in, well, how'd you get there? You know, someone will post an artifact, and in the comments will be like, what tools did you use? It's been so long since we asked that question continuously. You know, like, even that alone is a really fun time to be a designer.
- [23:38]
Sarah Vienna
One of my favorite parts about this job, it's so corny, but it's like, you make Internet friends. Like, that's how I met you. Like, we're Internet friends, but then all of a sudden, we're talking about things that, like, really matter. That, like, will change our lives as designers. And when you find that right group of people, or one person even, it can really open your mind and inspire you towards your next big design problem. And I think that's so important in what we do to mitigate burnout, because having that shared community aspect of this all is, at least for the majority of designers I know, critical when the going.
- [24:16]
Rid
Okay, so then let's talk about, like the community of design at Metalab then, for a second. Because you talked about using AI for diversion exploration, I think we're probably barely scratching the surface of it, but it feels to me like potentially the most obvious use of AI for design in the future is just being able to make a thing. I also operate kind of on spectrums of concepts. And so, I don't know, maybe in the future I could say, take this one design, and now here's my spectrum. I'm going to label my opposite ends. And now I want 5 on that spectrum. Now I want 50 on that spectrum, you know, so it's like, to me, who knows what that's going to look like in practice, but it's going to be a thing, right? Like, we are going to be able to iterate at scale with AI and in that world, especially when the output might just be meh. Sometimes it's very cliche, but still true to talk about the importance of taste in that world. So maybe as you as a design leader, how do you think about the different ways that you want to invest in this collective taste profile of the design group at Metalab?
- [25:23]
Sarah Vienna
Invest is a really great word that you use because it means putting money towards and time towards things so that people can develop. Right. And talent development is so important for designers because I think it's what actually keeps a lot of designers happier in their job because they feel like they're still learning, they're still pushing their craft, they're still pushing things that they didn't think were possible. And so that is about making sure that there's money to go kick the tires in the new tool if you want, or training you want to do, if you want to go figure out how to make the most of drive. As an example, you know, there's so much to your point around the process and optionality of how you execute things and so giving time and space for that. So one thing that we do very decidedly is we give people time off for those types of days. Like it's part of your time off package. But have Fridays to be able to do that too. And it always makes the work better. Can I quantify an ROI on that? No, and I don't want to. But I can quantify the value of design. And when we do that and invest using your word, in learning new tools and developing our skill sets, there's always an impact to the value of design and the things that we make.
- [26:42]
Rid
I know that the answer is more nuanced than this, but you did kind of take it into this tinkering and trying new tools and workflows, direction, which kind of is at the heart of my answer too. And I don't know, every once in a while I kind of get a pulse check of like, am I going too, too hard on this one thing? But man, I just keep coming back to curiosity and the tools as one of, if not the best investment you can make as an individual. And maybe there isn't some policy at your job that's, you know, creating space for you, but gosh, being able to fight for space, to just try new things. You mentioned drive. There are 15 other tools and it feels like this gap is kind of accelerating between what is possible and what is kind of the table stakes and baseline of where we're comfortable. I don't know. I hope people don't get left behind.
- [27:27]
Sarah Vienna
I guess if I were to liken it to something that maybe most of us know, like, remember when you were learning like your first piece of software, whatever that was, right? Like, I was always Team Illustrator, not Photoshop, by the way, for a very same reason, because I was obsessed with the vector based control that I could have when designing apps. Right? So there's that, which maybe we need to have T shirts made or something, but then it's going to show our age. And so there we go. I remember when I was learning both of those tools, I was so overwhelmed by it, but also so inspired. And also whenever I found like this happy accident or I found a quick key that did something that I didn't know about or whatever, it was like this huge unlock of possibility. Again, even though you are holding space with the fact that you're also overwhelmed by it all. And I think that maybe you didn't learn on Photoshop and Illustrator. Hello fellow kids. Right, like, but like, if you did learn, if you were learning on Sketch or you were learning on Figma, you had a learning curve there too. And if you're still in design and still calling yourself a designer, you probably got through that, that curve. And I think about that same thing applied to AI tools today. It's Just another step in that process so that you don't get left behind. Because there's a lot that we can control in our lives and our careers and then there's some things that we can. And so like do we want to accept the things that we can't control but work with them? And working with AI tools for me is like, you know, you can come at me, I guess, but like this is, this is part of our jobs now and will continue to be. So I like the idea of owning a little bit more of your own destiny and picking it up and even if you fail, you gotta keep trying and then you'll be inspired by something you make.
- [29:13]
Rid
Owning your own destiny is a really good phrase and I think that that is something that I have been trying to put out into the world more and more, I guess because I think there are people who are naturally inspired. Maybe they work at more forward looking companies. They have someone like you as a design leader who's really pushing them to explore and tinker. Great, right? Check box. Like they're going to be okay. Then there's also people who maybe are exploring out of desperation. The fact is there's probably people listening to this right now that maybe they're in between jobs, they're still doing interviews and you feel this pressure, you have time. And also it's like, my gosh, I gotta get ahead kind of thing. Great, you're probably going to be okay. I worry for the people that are in roles that aren't pushing them, that feel quite legacy and they're very comfortable, you know. Yeah, that's my concern. We're still in the first inning, right? So like that gap I was talking about, it's accelerating. What the heck does that gap look like two years from now where you have a group of people that are really gung ho about making use and experimenting with this new tech. And then you have people who, they never got pushed and they never needed to get pushed and maybe what they were doing has come to an end. And now what? You know, I feel like part of my job now is just like banging the drum for those people.
- [30:32]
Sarah Vienna
Thanks for sharing that with me because you take on a hell of a lot of responsibility in what you, you just said. Like you're taking responsibility for a lot of humans, which I think is noble and amazing. And why create a thing if you're not making people better? Like, but I just think that first of all that's very cool.
- [30:51]
Rid
You can't, you, you can't have a platform and not say you know, it's like, I didn't set out to talk about AI When I started this, I didn't even think about AI and then I was like, oh, I'll do a few AI Episodes. And then it was like, shooting, this is changing the world. And now I'm like, I can't think about anything other than five years in the future and how different the world looks and how little we're talking about it and how unprepared a lot of people are. And I'm like, I hope I'm not getting annoying, but we're going to talk.
- [31:17]
Sarah Vienna
About this, you know, totally well. And you might lose some listeners for that reason, because they're over it. But the people who are listening, you know, especially the ones who really trust you, are going to take your advice and, like, figure it out for themselves. But the one thing that I learned, my boss said to me, because sometimes this can feel like, really, like, inside baseball for a lot of us, right? He's like, everybody's on their own journey about understanding how AI is going to impact them. And, you know, it's because, like, I'm all kind of out here, and we're using it and we're building it, and it's a little bit more second nature for me right now and in our teams. But there is the adoption curve that we really need to think about. And there's amazing people on all sides of the adoption curve. And you can also understand why the laggards are where they are. I was nerding out and explaining to some teenagers last night, which I thought that it was, like, my son's friend's birthday. They probably thought I was insufferable, but they were.
- [32:17]
Rid
You are the fellow kid.
- [32:19]
Sarah Vienna
Oh, man. Like, we were talking about AI and I was like, have you guys heard of the Luddites? And I was like, well, back in the Renaissance days, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, oh, my God, mom, get out of here.
- [32:29]
Rid
Gloss over.
- [32:30]
Sarah Vienna
Yeah, but a couple of them are really interested in it, right? One of them wants to be a filmmaker and think about, like, what her life is going to be like trying to become a filmmaker with AI in the process. But she wants to know, what is it? What does it mean for me, what it might mean for my workflow. She's still going to be a creator, though. She's still going to be a maker, her. In whatever way.
- [32:53]
Rid
Yeah.
- [32:53]
Sarah Vienna
Who knows what it's going to look like when she, you know, gets to college in a few years, but she's going to be able to really make waves because she's curious about it all.
- [33:02]
Rid
And that curiosity is everything. Right. It's funny, you. You were giving the AI field to your teenagers. I was doing parking at my church. I was volunteering on the parking team. And I'm working with this kid who's 22 years old, just graduated. He's a financial analyst. And I don't remember if he even asked a relevant question, but sure enough, I'm here just rambling at this kid about a. And I can't help but talk to people who especially are in, like, the earlier career, recent grads, and try to get them encouraged and excited because it's like, this is the greatest leveling of the playing field of all time. You know, Like, I've been doing this. I'm not going to date myself, but like, a long time. Right. Like, I've been designing products for a long time. All of these tools are just as new for me as they are for the 21 year old fresh out of school.
- [33:50]
Sarah Vienna
Yeah.
- [33:51]
Rid
And there's nothing that I'm being handed, really. Yeah. Maybe I have more Twitter friends, but I still got to figure all this out and what this means. And we used to joke about the designers who, you know, maybe were a little bit slower to adapt styles and auto layout and Figma. And that just feels like. Just a little. It's so minuscule now. You know, like, the jump that we're at all of a sudden is like, if you're curious, you are just as qualified to make the jump as I am.
- [34:19]
Sarah Vienna
And I forget who it was like, let's please credit this person. But it was like the song of the high agency hero. Like, fuck around and find out. Like, don't die. Like, founder mode. Like, what else? You know? And that's one of my favorite tweaks of all time because there's so many versions of that, you know?
- [34:38]
Rid
Yeah.
- [34:39]
Sarah Vienna
And we're in this world where we're staying, like, okay, why don't you fuck around and find out? But, like, maybe we don't move fast and break things. Maybe we be a little more intentional and careful about what we're building and making while we shape this world that we want to live in. And that's like a big thing that I care about, is making sure that, like, you got to think about the implications of the things that you're making and designing and how they impact society. Right. And it's just. It just is. Like, you cannot talk about it or you can put out in the table and just Say like, let's design a world we want to live in and what does that look like? And it's different for everybody. And now we get into ethics, and I'm not going to become an ethics professor, I would do a terrible job at that. But what I will say is it's like our design decisions matter more than ever. And so really getting thoughtful about how we make the most confident design decisions that make a better world is like part of what I think about all day long.
- [35:34]
Rid
What do you think's at stake here? Like, if you zoom out big picture, we're designing this AI future. What are the stakes?
- [35:40]
Sarah Vienna
The stakes are high. They're really high for creative people. They're really high for an everyday worker. When you think about the multiple versions of potential futures that you see in science fiction, a lot of those things are coming true. So you need to ask yourself, do you want to live in a her like version of the future? Do you want to live in an idiocracy? And while like this art is made to express a point of view, and you may roll your eyes and be like, we'll never get to idiocracy, but there is a message there. If you're willing to listen, listen to it. And so how do we distill that message down to decision making that we make today in the experiences that we make? Our world is now driven by digital experiences and of course irl. I hope it's. They, they will change the game. And so I think that there's so many different multiple versions of the future, and I nerd out on this, but it's only because I don't know the answer. I'm like, dude, this is a butterfly effect situation. You know what I mean? Like Ashton Kutcher butterfly effect.
- [36:48]
Rid
Totally.
- [36:49]
Sarah Vienna
So much could change. So all you can do is think about, like, how do I root myself and the people I care about in the present and make the best decisions with the information I have day to day to feel like I'm the type of person who people want to work with, who people want have close to them as a friend and work through this, like, muck together. Because a lot of it is chaos right now.
- [37:13]
Rid
I mean, you're right. There's a million versions of what this could look like. It does feel like there is this even increased prevalence of digital experiences in all versions. And in a world where AI is realistically swallowing more and more of the software creation experience, what do you think it's going to look like for designers to maintain the human touch?
- [37:39]
Sarah Vienna
Think about what Johnny, I was talking about recently in the strike sessions, talking about like how a cord was designed. Taking that real intentionality of like, wow, somebody really thought through this. Somebody really put the time and the effort to think about what is the best version of what this could be, you know, and that I think is a really cool way to look at design and product design. That's still tapping into that thing I talked about before, which is like a simple human truth. Like iPhone users, people who purchase iPhones want a high end experience. They want to feel like they made the right decision. Even that unboxing moment, even the way that that cord is braided just so with that lightly golden, you know, fiber or whatever that's in the newer version, somebody thought about that and somebody, somebody put the care and intention into that. So my money was well spent. You take that idea of like, I'm going to build meaning into those experiences. It's understanding what people want, what do they need. Sometimes those two can be in opposition. But then designing an experience that ultimately delivers that. And the hardest part is getting to that human truth. Though I think the execution is easier as long as you've got an amazing team, like, but the harder part is like, what's the thing that truly matters?
- [38:57]
Rid
I'm a big believer in the power of video to explain my thinking as a designer. So when it's time to get feedback, I'll drop a loom link and slack and another link to a Figma prototype and feedback will be scattered everywhere. And I mean it's a mess. So I'm building the product that I've always wanted to exist and it's called Inflight. You can kind of think of it like an Async crit. It's an easy way to share a video walkthrough along with an interactive prototype or whatever you're designing. And then AI interviews the people on your team to get you the feedback that you need and organizes everything for you in a beautiful insights page. So right now I'm only giving access to dive club listeners. So if you want to be one of the first to use Inflight, head to dive club slash inflight to claim your spot. You said something earlier that I'm now going to return back to where you talked about just the right amount of research, almost implying that you can over research something. So maybe I'm going to pull that back into the conversation as you're bringing up this process of getting at the human truth again. And can we just get really specific, like are there practical frameworks or processes or things that you all are doing when you're maybe even interfacing with clients to help you and them arrive at what are these underlying truths that we should put at the heart of everything?
- [40:19]
Sarah Vienna
I did not coin this term, so I want to be really clear. There's somebody who's a lot more experienced than me who coined this term, and her name is Erica hall, and she's written for a book Apart, and I think her book was called Just Enough Research. Right. And so figuring out what is just enough, that's the real snag in all of this. But I think that ultimately you don't want to get so much research under your belt that you get into, like, analysis paralysis. Right? Like, even though we can do a lot more with AI today to model the data and find the patterns and all the things. And so it's figuring out, like, okay, well, what does success look like? If we understand what success looks like, then we can start to unpack. What are the things that are going to get us there? One of the things we know is a standard of getting to success with any existing user base is understanding their needs. Why do we want to understand their needs? Because we want to speak to them, resonate with them, find that simple human truth. But people are complicated. Sometimes that means doing a longitudinal diary study and, like, studying people over time. Sometimes that means some really quick and dirty user interviews or some concept testing. Sometimes that means doing, like, a bigger survey and trying to figure out, like, what the patterns are in the survey. But I am a believer in all research as a data point that makes sense, given the end goal. Deciding what makes sense can have a lot to do with budget, time, resources, all the things. So what's the quickest cheat code to get you to those answers? What's the thing that's going to give you those confident design decisions? And if you can find that method, just go, right?
- [42:00]
Rid
Yeah.
- [42:01]
Sarah Vienna
And confident design decisions also have a lot to do with the people who are designing. And so that plus the right amount of research to give you that foundation of confidence into continuing to make something. But we're big fans of the tangible, so we don't do well in projects where we talk a lot. We get to making as quickly as possible, because a prototype, a screen, a sketch, a mood board can say more than any sort of like, like, you know, fancy deck or a million words, right? So getting to the making of something tangible to point at is so important, along with tempering that with real research, with real humans, in my opinion, you can Use some diet of humans if you want. But I also say that you should temper that with real humans.
- [42:51]
Rid
Okay, I was going to ask about that because you talked about the fastest getting there as quickly as you can. And like. Well, is there an asterisk there?
- [42:58]
Sarah Vienna
Well, think about it. Like, what are synthetic humans trained on and what do they become? They come in an amalgamation of a Persona and if you get the right designer or researcher in a room, they'll either love or hate a Persona too, for all the same reasons. Right. And so like, you just have to be careful with synthetic methods because they're not giving you the purity of what you need in the human experience. Right. It's a very watered down, normalized experience that you're hearing about. So the. Just enough is such a hard question to answer, but it's a really important one that I know that the team at my lab is constantly pushing on and figuring out what makes the most sense given the context of what we can do and when and, and also the intensity of the design problem. Right. If there's a really intense design problem that's, let's say in, you know, something consequential like healthcare or finance, you're going to want to take more beats to be really thoughtful about how you execute that rather than like, hey, we're working on an early stage startup and we've got some brand concepts that we want to go kick around and see what people think. There's a two very wide between what just enough might be.
- [44:06]
Rid
Honestly, I had some conviction even listening to you talk because I've been working on a new product this year and I did a lot of discovery calls, like a lot. And I think I got to the point where I understood the layer that was probably held enough information for me to make the right decisions. But then I had probably more than just enough of the, of this research process and I got down to another layer and it actually started spinning me in circles a little bit because then you start to really illuminate all of the divergence and all of the edge cases. You said analysis paralysis and I totally felt that. I totally felt that. And would I have felt that if I did half as much research? Maybe not.
- [44:49]
Sarah Vienna
Actually.
- [44:49]
Rid
You can almost preserve this confidence and excitement about a direction and at that point the most important thing you have on your side is momentum anyway. And perhaps there's this inverse correlation then between research and momentum.
- [45:01]
Sarah Vienna
Did you pop any of those results into any AI to help SenseBank?
- [45:05]
Rid
I did. I used granola quite heavily for it. Okay, why, why I'm curious why you ask.
- [45:11]
Sarah Vienna
Well, it's just because if you give AI the right prompts to, like, I don't know what the exact right prompt would be. My head of research, Angie, would be better for this prompt. But, like, if you were to say, like, be an expert researcher and strategist, look at this result set and show me where the patterns are. Show me what the deepest insight is. You know what I mean? Like, kind of giving it that prompt to train you in a direction, have it be your boss for a second and give it, like, where's that expert layer that you feel like you're missing in the whole analysis? Paralysis, Right? Because, like, imagine you went to a friend, asked the same thing. That would be a cool experiment to go to Claude, but then go to Angie, shout out, yeah, yeah, and have them both give you the answer, because they may be totally the same, and they may be wildly off something that.
- [46:01]
Rid
You just sparked, which maybe is a kind of almost a combination of how I'm working and then an idea that you just presented, which is, I really like having AI ask me questions. Like, rather than me doing the input, I'm basically like, hey, I want you to just interview the hell out of me on this topic, and then we'll synthesize it from there. And so perhaps what I could do is feed it this raw data set of research interviews, whatever it is, transcripts, doesn't, you know, whatever I want to put in there. And then say, okay, now I want you to ask me questions to get at my take, like, what do I see from this data set? What are the trends that I notice? And then once you have an understanding of what I see, now create a report of everything that I did not mention. What are all of the things that I did not highlight? Or different ways that you could combine these trends that would point in different directions or help me arrive at a different set of conclusions. And I've never done something like that, but I've just taken that away as a potential practice that I might explore in the future.
- [47:03]
Sarah Vienna
That sounds like such a cool unlock for process. You know, having it be your critiquer, I think is a huge. Oh, man, here's another thing. Like, you know, the Steve Jobs faster horses, or Steve Jobs, like, you know, he basically took Henry Ford's idea that if you ask people what they wanted, they would have told me faster horses. Meanwhile, I'm making cars over here. Y' all like Steve Jobs that a lot. So you have it be in Steve Jobs mode for you too, right? Because when you're making something there is balancing the thing that people tell you versus projecting that potential future of what could be. And sometimes those two things do not align directly. Right? So I definitely lean into like understanding the human condition, deeply seated human needs. But then there's the like, well, what if there's painting this like, potential version of the future that people never thought of? And that's why Steve Jobs was very tempered about research for this reason. And once you understand the nuance, he wasn't anti. He just understood that those two things had to be held together and understood to make the right confident design decision, even if it's not what people are telling you. Which is another thing that's very interesting because people might tell you what you want to hear or about faster horses when that's not going to be the same solution.
- [48:25]
Rid
The more that I talk to people, the more that I'm like, man, depending on how you use these tools, you can have a vastly different experience. You know, like, so many people still are in the phase of using something like Claude or ChatGPT as just an answer machine, but that's like barely scratching the surface. So now you're making me wonder, is there anything else that we haven't talked about in terms of how you've maybe evolved your usage of AI over time, even personally, like, what are you doing to try new methods or just in general try to get the most out of these tools in your own workflows?
- [49:01]
Sarah Vienna
Well, I gotta say, like, one thing I think that's a big gap, but I've done this intentionally, is I have a lot of tools and not a lot of depth in them all. I've got my own personal accounts with perplexity and cloud and all the things, right. And all these other ones that are a little bit weird. And there's like this little marketplace that might be the next app store of AI that's kind of cool to look into. And like, it's called po and like, there's all these other things to like, yeah, those are my personal accounts, but then we have our work accounts for stuff too. And the reason I'm saying that is because the data that I'm giving it is so thin across each, it's garbage in, garbage out. The outputs are only as good as the data that you give it. Right. At a base level, but also on a personalization level level. So truly the thing I'm trying to do is get Chat GPT to know who I am a little bit more at this point. But right now it thinks I'M a man. And it. Yeah, still does. I've tried this many times and it's because of the information that I'm giving it. I asked it to paint a picture of me and it is a very dark situation. I look like, oh, man.
- [50:07]
Rid
It's not a great reflection of the industry.
- [50:08]
Sarah Vienna
Yeah, I look like a Renaissance, Renaissance wizard with like some formulas behind. And I'm not that smart. I'm not good at math, so I don't know, it just thinks that whatever I put in there, that's a reflection of me, but it clearly doesn't know me. But that's by design and I do that on purpose. And the reason I tell you about that is that, like, it is my job to know about all these things. It's my job to know how to train all of these things. It's my job to know how to properly prompt. And yet my information is a thin layer across them all. I'm a person who very much needs to trust what I work with too, you know, and I'm continually making sure that, you know, they're keeping up their end of the bargain too. If I gave myself some feedback, I don't give it enough data to be as relevant to me as I could. And I have my data. My data profile is too sparse and thin across too many tools.
- [50:57]
Rid
I couldn't agree more. I think I was in the exact same situation and I felt the weight of it too, because I believe that there will be compounding value over time as a certain model deeply understands you and can make connections across everything. And I was kind of doing the AI tourist game for a little bit. For me, it was then ChatGPT released memory and I was like, well, shoot, that's pretty compelling. And so then I started putting everything into ChatGPT after that, and it actually really has gotten amazing. But now you have like DIA browser and comment browser. And I believe deeply that an AI native browser is the future. I can also see the kind of upstream benefits of that, but it's not like a little thing for me. I'm not looking at this as like, oh, you know, it's the. What browser do I want to use? For me, it's like, what is the core AI system that I want to contribute to and achieve those compounding benefits over time? That's weighty, right? Like, that's like kind of a big deal. And I don't think take it lightly. And so, I don't know, it's. It's a kind of crazy outcome that's been produced by this explosion of tools, actually.
- [52:08]
Sarah Vienna
Totally. It's so cool to hear you talk about the way you think about it too, and where you're going with the browser thing, because I, I believe that too. I mean, just take a look at Chrome. Chrome knows so much about you. It's like, it's creepy and there's a reason why. Yet at the same time, if you are somebody who believes browsers will be like one of the next frontiers, knowing you incredibly well, it's like you have to hold that tension with like, what you said, how much data do I really want to give it and how much do I trust it versus, like, I know that it's only going to be as useful to me as what I give it.
- [52:45]
Rid
What am I doing here if I don't want to invest in it?
- [52:47]
Sarah Vienna
Yeah. So like, what's that exchange? What's that value exchange? And I'm constantly thinking about that. And you know, I will say that I know some people, people behind both of those products and really they're amazing designers and they're very trustworthy people in my opinion. So that user interface layer I have loads of confidence in, but there's other pieces of it of like, how much do I buy in with what I do give it? I would be lying to you who I said, like, I'm a little bit of a conspiracy theorist. I don't want.
- [53:18]
Rid
There was, there was a hint coming through. I was picking up something just a.
- [53:22]
Sarah Vienna
Little bit, you know, and it's only because maybe I know too much in this and I think a lot of us in tech might know too much, but it's also like, this is the world that we're building. I was giving a talk at Alltrails, who is like a design company that you know loads of respect for.
- [53:38]
Rid
Love Alltrails.
- [53:39]
Sarah Vienna
I was just talking with their team about AI and how we use it and how they were thinking about it. And it was a really cool kind of like rapid fire question answer session. I'm just lucky enough to know sine meters there. That's the only reason I got it. One of them asked me, well, what companies do you trust? And that was a really amazing answer to be put on the spot with because I think what we need to do is like look out in the world and look at the signals, right? And look at who is signaling, who should you should trust and who creates things that paint a picture of the world that you want to live in. And you know, I gave the example of Anthropic and Dario Modi and You know, I couldn't remember the name of.
- [54:20]
Rid
His paper, but it was like machines of loving grace.
- [54:24]
Sarah Vienna
Loving grace. I was like magical machine robots. Yeah, yeah. But all of the ways that our world can be improved with this insane technology that is really picking at pace like that's a world I want to live in. But we also have to think about the opposite side side. Because the human condition is like we are, we contain multitudes, we are not all good. We are the good, the bad, the ugly. And so that's going to be manifested in what we make in terms of our world with, especially with AI because AI is not just a mirror, it's like an exponential formula to magnify all of the things that are right but also wrong with our world. So if you've got somebody who releases a paper like that and you've got somebody who's making a product like Clot as an example, and I'm just giving one example because I can't wanna get into everyone.
- [55:18]
Rid
It's a really good example though, because it popped into my head too. Even tying back to what we were talking about earlier, about what makes something resonate and like where and how can you attach meaning. That was a pretty effective example, right? Because it had mind share for both of us where that was the thing that kind of popped into our head. They're operating in largely a commodified industry. It's raw tech and power. And if one thing is clear, it's like, yeah, people are leapfrogging each other, but this is a commoditized set of technology. We are operating at the infrastructure level here. And so to be able to put that much of a signal out into the world of this is what we believe the future should look like and then have that be a magnet for people who want to create that future. Yeah, it's like the perfect example of what we were talking about earlier.
- [56:09]
Sarah Vienna
I don't believe this, but like, let's play it out. And they end up being like Mega Evil Corp. Then like, shame on us, you know, shame on them. I don't think that that's the case with them, but you know, you could think of somebody who's a pessimist or somebody who's, you know, say like, wow, they really got you with that marketing, you know, and my answer was like, they did, but I trust them, I believe them. There's also that leap of faith that I talked about where it's like, okay, I took that leap with them. If they break my trust, you're dead to me. No, I'm kidding. You took that leap of faith, then you better pay it off. And I hope, I hope, I believe that you're a bunch of good people behind this, but we also have to hold space that, like, a lot of this is capitalism, you know.
- [56:55]
Rid
Yeah.
- [56:56]
Sarah Vienna
The world that we live in. So these conversation wildly so go so far from like, a superficial, like, amazing, like, make it pop, make it pretty, like, brand fun, bling, bling, motion down to philosophy so fast for me, because I can't not think about all of these things all at once in the moment that we're in. And that's why I meditate.
- [57:18]
Rid
One thing listening to you talk is that it's pretty clear you're, you know, you're plugged into the industry and you have a decent sense of what's going on. You're talking to these different teams. So I'm curious, are there any misconceptions about AI that you see designers have and maybe any ideas for how we could kind of shift those mindsets?
- [57:36]
Sarah Vienna
Gosh, it really depends on the designer, you know, So I guess talk about the spectrum. There's some designers who are like, it'll never take my job. You can't do what I do. Which, you know, I believe that there's always going to need to be a human layer to controlling AI when you want to get an outcome that is for infants. But hold up, what elements of your job, right. And, like, what elements of your job, you know, do you want to hold on to versus having to do for you? And that's a. That's a big moment that we're in right now of, for example, doing the busy work and making room for creative work. That's my personal POV that I'd like to say. But the other end of the spectrum is that AI can do everything right. And a lot of people putting out a lot of garbage and then it getting traction, which I guess is fine, but it's kind of like slop on slop on slop just makes more slop. And so how do you get it back to a point where there's. We cut the noise out, because that's all just noise. And being able to filter out the noise is something that we've needed to be able to do since the beginning of time. Right. But today you have to be so much better at it if you're to focus on the things that matter for you.
- [58:51]
Rid
Individually, we've covered a lot of ground, and before I let you go, I kind of want to give just a little catch all to make sure that we're talking about everything that you want to cover here. So, yeah, I'm going to toss a hypothetical your way. It's not an easy one, but let's say that tomorrow you are given this giant digital billboard that you have complete creative control over and the entire design community is going to see for 24 hours. What would you want to put on that billboard?
- [59:24]
Sarah Vienna
Oh. Oh, my gosh, I love this question. What I'm thinking is some sort of like, big, like holographic or like lenticular, like, angles that are the background.
- [59:35]
Rid
I love it.
- [59:36]
Sarah Vienna
Yeah. So, like, really nerdy. If you've seen lenticulars, they're a thing. They're more fun to hold, but still. And then in giant neon lettering, probably, I, Yeah, I would say sans serif, all caps. Don't fuck it up. And then I would just sign like, love in script at the very bottom or something.
- [60:01]
Rid
Wow.
- [60:01]
Sarah Vienna
Yeah.
- [60:02]
Rid
That got to such a high level of fidelity so quickly in your brain. Like you closed your eyes and it was just there.
- [60:08]
Sarah Vienna
Can we get this made? Who wants to pay for it?
- [60:11]
Rid
Give us the meaning to you behind. Don't fuck it up.
- [60:15]
Sarah Vienna
It's just so much of, like, what we were talking about, top to bottom. Your career can still be a big, gigantic, wide open space. This world can still be. It's malleable. Like, we can make it. We can make what we want. Like, that's the thing that I'm. That's. Boy, I love being a designer. We can, yeah, make part of the things that we want to see in the world, even if we can't control everything. It's just a. It's a psa. It's a PSA for everybody who has money or is in tech. Actually.
- [60:47]
Rid
I love that. And I think now that the means of production is effectively being democratized. What a great time to be a designer. Like, I'm so grateful for this core set of skills in terms of what it will require to make a true impact and actually shape the future.
- [61:03]
Sarah Vienna
I am a staunch believer that the people who know how to get the outcomes from these tools are the ones that are going to make the things that win. And at the end of the day, your title doesn't matter as much as your skills and those skills are blending together. And that's fun if you love learning and if you love challenging yourself.
- [61:22]
Rid
I love it. Well, Sarah, this has been beautiful and as human as this show has ever gotten. So I appreciate you coming on. It was great. I. I love. I'm going to feed it in. Maybe I'll see if the editor can create some kind of a visual representation. By the time this goes live, we'll see if it gets close to your vision. Well, thank you for coming on, Sarah. This was a blast.
- [61:45]
Sarah Vienna
Yeah, it was so fun to get to know you better today too. And just shouts for everything that you do for the community. And it's just I love positive spaces on the Internet. So thank you for doing what you do.
- [61:57]
Rid
Before I let you go, I want to take just one minute to run you through my favorite products because I'm constantly asked what's in my stack. Framer is how I build websites. Genway is how I do research. Granola is how I take notes during crit. Jitter is how I animate my designs. Lovable is how I build my ideas in code. Marvin is how I find design inspiration. Paper is how I design like a creative. And Raycast is my shortcut cut every step of the way. Now I've hand selected these companies so that I can do these episodes full time. So by far the number one way to support the show is to check them out. You can find the full list at Dive Club Partners.