25 Years of "Make It Work" with Tim Gunn

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dressed: The History of Fashion
Episode: 25 Years of "Make It Work" with Tim Gunn
Release Date: June 25, 2025

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Introduction

In this milestone episode commemorating 25 years of Tim Gunn's iconic phrase "Make It Work," hosts April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary delve deep into Tim Gunn’s profound impact on the fashion world and his pivotal role in the success of the reality TV show Project Runway. Celebrating two decades of Project Runway and Tim Gunn’s 25-year journey in the fashion industry, the conversation navigates through his tenure at Parsons School of Design, his transition to television, and recent developments surrounding his departure from the show.

Tim Gunn's Background and Legacy with Project Runway

Cassidy Zachary opens the discussion by highlighting Tim Gunn's indispensable contribution to Project Runway. As someone who joined the faculty at Parsons in 1983 and later became the chair of the Fashion Design department, Tim laid the foundational ethos that would eventually define his mentorship style on television.

• Cassidy Zachary [01:13]: "Tim Gunn is one of my most favorite people and one of the most treasured fashion fixtures and pop culture icons of the 21st century."

Tim credits his time at Parsons as formative, stating that "Parsons really formed me" ([03:24]). His transformation of the Fashion Design department into a world-renowned program set the stage for his later success on Project Runway.

Transforming Parsons: The Birth of "Make It Work"

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Tim Gunn’s transformative work at Parsons, where he not only revamped the curriculum but also coined his famous mantra "Make It Work."

• Tim Gunn [06:42]: "I couldn't support your desire to start all over. What have you learned? Nothing. So what if things go well? Great. What if they don't go well? Then you're going to have an additional struggle to work through."

This philosophy underscored his approach to both teaching and mentoring, emphasizing resilience and problem-solving over starting anew. Tim recounts the challenges he faced, including overhauling an outdated curriculum and confronting resistant faculty members.

Transition to Project Runway

When approached by producers in January 2004 to consult on a new fashion reality show, Tim was initially skeptical about merging academia with reality TV.

• Tim Gunn [22:38]: "It wasn't seamless at all."

Despite his reservations, Tim's collaboration with the Project Runway team led to the show's unique format, blending real-world fashion challenges with academic rigor. His expertise became a cornerstone of the show's success, where his mentorship style resonated with both designers and audiences alike.

Mentorship and Key Moments on Project Runway

Tim Gunn discusses his mentoring philosophy, focusing on guiding designers to self-realization rather than imposing his opinions.

• Tim Gunn [34:26]: "My goal was always to probe and question the designer enough to get the designer to see what I see so that I don't have to say it."

He shares memorable moments, such as his strict yet supportive interactions with participants like Christian Siriano and his candid feedback that pushed designers to excel. Tim also reflects on the challenges of balancing honesty with encouragement, vital for nurturing talent under the intense pressures of competition.

Relationship with Heidi Klum

A significant and heartfelt part of the conversation revolves around Tim's dynamic relationship with Heidi Klum, co-host of Project Runway.

• Tim Gunn [40:35]: "I have to say, I love and adore Heidi more than I can adequately express."

Tim recounts their professional synergy and personal camaraderie, highlighting how Heidi's confidence and leadership complemented his mentorship. Their partnership was instrumental in creating the show's warm and constructive environment, making it a beloved fixture in reality TV.

Recent Developments: Departure from Project Runway

In a surprising turn of events, Tim Gunn reveals recent decisions regarding his departure from Project Runway, coinciding with Heidi Klum's return after an eight-year hiatus.

• Tim Gunn [42:56]: "We don't want him."

Despite producers initially expressing interest, Tim was ultimately told by his agent that the show did not want him back, leading to his firm decision to decline any cameo appearances.

• Cassidy Zachary [43:48]: "We are not alone. And this is not to say that this is the last we will hear from Tim."

Tim expresses a sense of gratitude and pride in his contributions while addressing the professional disappointment surrounding his exit. He emphasizes his continued commitment to the fashion industry and his enduring friendship with Heidi.

Reflection and Future Outlook

Looking back over his 25-year journey, Tim Gunn reflects on his proudest achievements, particularly his transformative work at Parsons.

• Tim Gunn [46:32]: "I'm proudest of what I was able to do at Parsons because I wouldn't have the courage to do it again today, or the strength."

Tim underscores the personal and professional growth he experienced alongside the designers he mentored, celebrating the successes that stemmed from his educational reforms and mentorship philosophy.

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a heartfelt thank you to Tim Gunn, acknowledging his invaluable contributions to both Project Runway and the broader fashion education landscape. Hosts invite listeners to revisit Tim’s impactful journey through their resources, encouraging them to embody his "Make It Work" ethos in their daily lives.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tim Gunn [06:42]: "I couldn't support your desire to start all over. What have you learned? Nothing. So what if things go well? Great. What if they don't go well? Then you're going to have an additional struggle to work through."

• Tim Gunn [34:26]: "My goal was always to probe and question the designer enough to get the designer to see what I see so that I don't have to say it."

• Tim Gunn [42:56]: "We don't want him."

• Tim Gunn [46:32]: "I'm proudest of what I was able to do at Parsons because I wouldn't have the courage to do it again today, or the strength."

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Final Thoughts

This episode serves as a comprehensive tribute to Tim Gunn's enduring legacy in the fashion industry and his instrumental role in shaping Project Runway. Through candid reflections and insightful discussions, listeners gain an intimate understanding of the principles that have made Tim Gunn a revered mentor and fashion icon.

Transcript

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[Cassidy Zachary]

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[Tim Gunn]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

The History of Fashion is a production of Dressed media With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.

[Tim Gunn]

Dressed.

[April Callahan]

Welcome to Dressed. The History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are friends, fashion historians and your hosts, April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary, dress listeners.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Today's guest perhaps needs no introduction, but I am going to give him one anyways because Tim Gunn is one of my most favorite people and one of the most treasured fashion fixtures and pop culture icons of the 21st century. And now he is a two time dressed guest.

[April Callahan]

Yes, Tim first joined us in 2022 to discuss his own fashion history, sharing his path to fashion change maker first at Parsons, where He worked from 1983 to 2007, and then on the smash hit fashion reality competition show Project Runway, which shot him into international stardom as a beloved mentor to the show's designers for the first 16 seasons of the show.

[Cassidy Zachary]

The show celebrated 20 years this past December 2024 and in celebration, we really actually need no excuse to have Tim on the show, but it seemed like as good a time as any to talk to the man without whom the show would, in my humble opinion, never ever have succeeded. Or succeeded as well. But as we will learn today, the foundations for Tim's Project Runway success were laid years earlier in his time as the chair of the Fashion Design department at Parsons, a department that he himself was instrumental in transforming into the internationally rec and celebrated fashion program that it is today. And as we will also learn today, it is here and not on Project Runway where Tim coined his now famous phrase, make it work.

[April Callahan]

Oh, we are so pleased to welcome Tim back to the show. Mr. Gunn, welcome back to Dressed.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Tim, welcome back to Dressed. It is such an honor and pleasure to speak with you again.

[Tim Gunn]

I am so thrilled to be back and to Be speaking with you. I'm very flattered.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I guess it's been a couple years since we last chatted. I did realize there was a lot we didn't discuss, so I'm happy to have you back.

[Tim Gunn]

Did I tell you at that time that when I inherited the department of fashion design, there had never been a history of fashion course?

[Cassidy Zachary]

I think we did talk about that.

[Tim Gunn]

Yeah, I think we did too.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And we can talk about. I think we can revisit that a little bit today just because it is very fascinating, but I think it's also really obviously foundational to what you bring to Project Runway is the work that you put in at Parsons.

[Tim Gunn]

I have to agree.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yes.

[Tim Gunn]

Parsons really formed me.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And I see you're a book lover like me.

[Tim Gunn]

It's why I can never move. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Me too. This is one shelf.

[Tim Gunn]

I can tell. I love it.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I collect books.

[Tim Gunn]

I do, too.

[Cassidy Zachary]

My obsession. It's a problem. I mean, it's a good problem to have, I think.

[Tim Gunn]

I know. And I have a terrible. I can't purge. I picked the book up, and it's filled with memories, even if I'm not gonna reread it. And I think I can't give this up.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I know. I agree. They're memory keepers. They hold a lot. I love my books, so.

[Tim Gunn]

Yeah. And if you give it away, you feel as though you're giving away part of yourself.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yes, exactly. Exactly. We're kindred spirits in that way.

[Tim Gunn]

We are indeed.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And I have to say, you keep coming in and out of my life in rather unexpected ways. I think last time we talked, I don't know if you remember, it's been a couple years, but I had just spent my entire maternity leave watching Project Runway reruns. All of your seasons start to finish.

[Tim Gunn]

Aww.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I had a fantastic time. It was a joy. And then just last week, I was watching Sesame street with that same child, my now toddler. And who was that episode's special guest? It was Tim Gunn, which was such a treat.

[Tim Gunn]

We had a blast. It was a 14 hour day, and I had a smile on my face the entire time. It was just wonderful.

[Cassidy Zachary]

It was so wonderful. And especially just introducing my son to you because you are such a beloved. You're a pop icon, which is why you are there also. But you're also there because you are a beloved national, international treasure who leads with kindness in everything you do. So I was not surprised to see you there. It was really a treat.

[Tim Gunn]

Cassidy, I'm welling up. Lovely. Lovely thing to say. Thank you.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And also, that's the only time I've ever seen you not put together because your hair gets rattled.

[Tim Gunn]

That big bad wolf.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yes. So, anyways, we are here because we are fresh. The hills of the 20th anniversary of Project Runway, which is just bananas to me, that was celebrated this past December. And I mean, this is a milestone that it must be set. You played no small part in creating, so congratulations on that.

[Tim Gunn]

Thank you. And who knew it would be a success? I didn't. I really didn't.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And we're going to dig into that today because you are so foundational to Project Runway. It would not exist, arguably, without you or would not have gotten past the first season, in my opinion, without you. You're a pillar of the show's success. But before we delve into that, I just wanted to remind our listeners about your path to Project Runway, because in many ways, the foundations were laid years prior in your work at Parsons, and you began teaching at Parsons in, I believe, 1983.

[Tim Gunn]

Great memory. Yes.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Can you talk to us a little bit about your time there and how it informed you, your mentoring on the show, but also you bring that fashion insider expertise to the show. And I think are actually our. And we did not talk about this first time, which is just bananas to me, but our listeners are going to be pleased to learn that actually your famous make it work phrase was coined at Parsons years before Parsons Runway. So can you talk to us about that?

[Tim Gunn]

Certainly. I should probably begin, Cassidy, by saying that when I joined Parsons in 1983, it was as a teacher, a three dimensional design teacher. In the foundation year, students at Parsons, I can't speak for it today, but then students didn't declare a major until the end of their freshman year. So I was teaching students across disciplines, which I loved because I have a fine arts background. I don't have a background in architecture or fashion or graphic design. And to have this wonderful mix of students was really thrilling and, quite frankly, enlightening and educational for me. And I also served on the admissions committee as a faculty member, and that gave me exposure to people in other departments, and it also gave me exposure to the students who were interested in applying to Parsons and various things. So I'll fast forward. So my exposure as a member of the admissions committee led me to a position I never dreamed I'd have, but a position of associate dean. So I was teaching, and I was an administrator, and as associate dean, I was sent into departments that were in some way struggling. I also oversaw Full time faculty reappointments, chair searches, department chair searches. It was a very mixed bag of things. And some people called me a troubleshooter. I called myself a pooper scooper because.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Cleaning up the mess.

[Tim Gunn]

Yes, I would say this place needs to stop pooping as much as it is. Which is what led me to the fashion department. This is leading up to make it work. I had been at Parsons for 16 years, the 17th of which I spent working with the dean and a search committee to find a new chair for the department of Fashion design. And it was a roller coaster of a trip. It was very challenging. And I have to say, owing to the fact that the fashion department was arguably the most famous department at Parsons and owing to the fact that geographically it was separate from the rest of the school by about a mile and a half.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Interesting.

[Tim Gunn]

It was really under the radar of everyone. And in the process of this search, which failed badly, it was decided that I would go into the department for a semester, the fall semester of 2000, and manage things while the chair search continued. And I'd been in the department for, oh, less than a month. And I wrote a State of the Union to the dean saying, I am shocked, appalled and dismayed. I thought this was the jewel in our crown and it is a hemorrhaging mess. As an example, the curriculum had not changed since 1952. 50 years. There's no technology, there's no fashion history, there's nothing modern that's happening. The students are all hand sewing garments.

[Cassidy Zachary]

What?

[Tim Gunn]

They're working hard, but they're not working in 2000.

[Cassidy Zachary]

That's amazing.

[Tim Gunn]

2000S. So at any rate, after one semester of this, the dean said, I'm appointing you chair because we couldn't bring anyone in from the outside. They'd have too long a learning curve. And as I said, the place was hemorrhaging. We, we needed tourniquets. I could do nothing that first year other than probe, ask a lot of questions, sit in on classes and teach. I taught a class of seniors, 20 students in the development of their portfolio. And it's a 30 week class, it's fall and spring semesters, so there's a continuum. And I had a student who in early April of 2001 said to me, I'm going to start all over again, start all over again. We're almost done. You can't do that. And she said, well, I'm just, I just don't, I don't feel the work anymore. You know, this feeling the work, forget about it. It's the design industry. And you can't wait for the muse to come by and tap you on the shoulder. So I've said you were. You are not starting over. Look at what you've invested in this. You're going to sit here, we're going to offer up a diagnosis of what's wrong and what's troubling you. And you're going to offer up a prescription for how to make it work. And that was the first time I can recall saying it. And I said, the worst thing that I could do for you is support your desire to start all over. Because what have you learned? Nothing. So what if things go well? Great. What if they don't go well? Then you're going to have an additional struggle to work through. So by going through this process, you are expanding your resources for problem solving because life is filled with them, both professionally and personally. And this will help you. So it was that year 2000, 2001, when I began saying it. And I haven't stopped.

[Cassidy Zachary]

No.

[Tim Gunn]

And I have to tell you too, Cassidy, there's another refrain that I used infrequently on Project Runway. I used it frequently in the classroom. And that refrain is, I can't want you to succeed more than you do. And why do I feel that I'm more invested in the success of this project than you are? It's got to be flipped. You have to be more invested than I am. And it's very useful whenever we run up against an immovable force. Why do I want the sports to move more than you do? We can't make it work then.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And I just think it's so fascinating that you had no fashion background or really even any necessarily fashion desire, and yet you took over this department. And then until I think you were there another seven years, until 2007, you really single handedly and you. And I'm not alone in saying this, people in the industry give you credit for really putting that program on the fashion map. And I love quoting Diane von Furstenberg because she says Tim's influence at Parsons was a turning point. It put the school on another level. He brought the real world into the school. Do you want to talk a little bit about how you brought the industry into the school and put the students in conversation with the actual world of fashion?

[Tim Gunn]

I'd love to. And I have to say Diane has been the most wonderful mentor to me. Before I joined the fashion department, she was a board member at Parsons and I. One of my responsibilities as associate dean was managing the board. So we Got to know each other very well. And she just. She's one of the most fabulous people I've ever met. And how many 20th century and 21st century designers can say that, that they've created an iconic look? The wrap dress, it's ubiquitous.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. She's an icon of American design.

[Tim Gunn]

She really is. And she was instrumental in helping support me spiritually because, as you said, I don't have a fashion background, or I didn't. I do now, but it was like going back to graduate school. I was on this huge learning curve. And I have to tell you about the first time Diana and I met in the fashion department. It was that first fall semester. She came for lunch in the office, and she's looking at me in this uncharacteristic way. I said to her, what's the matter? And she said this. And she gestured up and down, head to toe of me. I said, what do you mean? She said, you have to stop dressing like this. You have to be more modern. You have to be more on point with this industry. And this just won't do. I was wearing my boxy Brooks Brothers suits, so I went out the next day. I bought a pair of black jeans. I bought a black leather blazer and a black turtleneck sweater. And I spent the next seven years dressing like that, looking like Maynard G. Krebs from Dobie Gillis. Very few of your listeners will know that reference. So that first year, when I can only question and probe and observe was enlightening in so many ways, not the least of which was, what are we doing for the students? What are we really teaching them? And I said to the dean, in my state of the union, this is not a design school. This is a dressmaking program. In all. Interesting, there was no design dialogue going to a critique. And in the critiques, only faculty could speak. No students could speak. Faculty member, I really don't care about your opinion. What do the rest of you in this class think? And of course, I was conducting my own classes that way. And I was admonished by the faculty saying, no, no, no, no, no. We don't want to hear their voice. I do the only voice. I'm really interested in observing critiques. The faculty member would talk about things like, put a little more shadow under the eye and pull the hair back. Pull the hair back. The shadow under the eye. Let's talk about the close. What is being presented here?

[Cassidy Zachary]

So the faculty is a little outdated, too, is what it sounds like. The whole program needed an overview.

[Tim Gunn]

Yeah, no, Extremely outdated and Once I declared that these changes were going to have to happen, I assembled faculty committees to do the curriculum rewrite. And it was, for the most part, laughable, I have to say, because they were just tweaking. It's no, we can't tweak. We have to throw everything out and start all over again. We have to rebuild. And I remember conducting an intervention. I remember having to have an intervention with the junior year faculty who were writing the studio component of the curriculum. They were having this loud argument that I could hear from my office. So I went into the faculty room and I said, what is going on here? And it was about the definition of the dolmen sleeve. There were six faculty members no two could agree with. The dolman sleeve was. I left the faculty room, I went to my office, I got the Fairchild Dictionary of Fashion off my bookshelf, took it into the room, and I said, well, Fairchild says it's this. And they all declared, well, Fairchild is wrong. I said, we have got to have core competencies here. We can't be passing students on to the next level without a common lexicon. I mean, this is just unacceptable. So a lot of faculty members quit. Hooray. I dismissed quite a number which was not perceived well. And I should tell all of your listeners that in reworking this curriculum, I had to get a buy in from the students. I had to get them to say, yeah, we really want this. This is okay, or have them say, no, no, no, we like it the way it is. I knew they didn't like it the way it was because I'd been sitting in on classes and I'd been having student meetings, and I knew. So I met with the juniors that year in the spring of 2001 to tell them what the plan was. And the plan was to get rid of the jewel and the crown of the crown, which was called the Designer Critic Program. It was in the senior year. It matched well, didn't really match. It assigned groups of anywhere from six to eight students to top designers like Donna Karan, Marc Jacobs, Tom Ford, just to name a few. And that designer would present a design concept. The students would create drawings for it. Then there would be a conversation about those designs. It would then go into muslin and finally into final fabric, and they would walk in a fashion show. So that first year for me, and I revered the Designer Critic program, I thought it was the greatest thing ever. It was an abomination because everyone is infantilized. The faculty are infantilized by the criticism. The students are evangelized by the faculty and everyone's waiting. I mean, I'll use Donna Karan as an example because she was one of the good ones. Her office calls and says she's still in Milan sourcing fabric. So she can't. She won't be there tomorrow. She'll be there in two weeks. Nothing can move forward. There's no independence. Furthermore, something else was revealed when I took over the department and I looked at the budget. The lion's share of the budget was in the senior year. And I thought, well, these are senior faculty. They've been here longer. They make more money. Wrong. There were simply more faculty in the senior year. Why? You're going to love this, Cassidy. I'm really blowing the lip off of Parsons. Well, it's already been blown off. The faculty were making the clothes. Why?

[Cassidy Zachary]

What?

[Tim Gunn]

Yes, the faculty were making the clothes because they told me the students are a bunch of dummies. Dummies. How do you get out of bed in the morning and come here?

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah.

[Tim Gunn]

So everything had to be reworked. So at any rate, junior year group, I said to them, how would you react if I told you that I'm getting rid of the. Of the designer critic program? And they were mute. I mean, no one said anything. So I. I let it pause. And then I asked, don't you know what you're going to do next year if this program is not here? You will design and execute, create a collection of clothes of your own. Whatever you want to do, however you want to do it, you are in charge. They were cheering. They were on their feet. I said, wait a minute. Who's terrified? Coupled hands went up. I said, everyone should be raising a hand because you're totally unprepared for this. This curriculum has not been giving you the education that you need to actually execute this well. But I said, I believe in you. I believe you've been under challenged. I know how talented you are, and I'd rather have you strive to reach for something than just say, okay, well, we're going to do this for another year. Because ordinarily you would phase in curriculum. You'd have a new sophomore year, then a new junior year, then a new senior year. I couldn't stand the thought of these incredible students having to go through this torture. And I couldn't stand the thought of me having to oversee it. So we moved forward and a lot of issues were laid bare. The lack of textile education, the lack of historical fashion references. You mentioned Schiaparelli. And the kids all look like who. Who's that that next year we put in place an entirely new curriculum, including a three semester sequence of fashion history to really build some depth. And everything was new and it was delightful. And I should just add that in the second and third year that I was there, with all these meteoric changes, there were petitions asking for my resignation. Year three, the students went to Womenswear Daily. And thankfully, Eric Wilson, the journalist, called me and we sat down so that he could hear the other side of things. But there was serious uproar. But that's also how the Project Runway producers heard about me, because there was a lot of controversy.

[Cassidy Zachary]

You really overhauled that department. And in the middle of overhauling this department. So In, I think, 2003, 2002, producers for Project Runway or a reality show fashion competition that had not yet been created come knocking on your door.

[Tim Gunn]

It was actually January 2004.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Oh, okay. And academia and reality TV are not. Especially at this point, are not two fields that people would instinctively link together.

[Tim Gunn]

Nor did I.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And yet you made the leap so seamlessly. At least it would appear to us. But I'm sure the reality of that was very different.

[Tim Gunn]

Oh, Cassidy. It wasn't seamless at all. No.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah.

[Tim Gunn]

The producers called me in early January and told me what they wanted to do. And I'll tell you exactly what I said. I said, fashion reality. I said, this industry has enough trouble without that. And I made a wrongful assumption that they probably wanted to pick people at random off the street and say, you. We'll make you into a fashion designer.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Right?

[Tim Gunn]

So I said to them, thank you for the call, but I'm really not interested. They said, well, can we just see you for 10 minutes and pitch this? And I said, how can I say no? I said, yes. So I had their names and I googled them, and I found out that they were the Project Greenlight producers. And that show, if you know what, has a huge amount of integrity, it's about filmmaking. So I thought, well, okay, maybe this will be an interesting conversation. So it was an interesting conversation. And I was actually quite excited by the whole prospect. And I should add, they were looking for a consultant. My role on the show did not exist. So I was keyed up and I thought, this could be really interesting. Not weeks, but months went by and I didn't hear anything, and it just left my head. And then, lo and behold, they called and they said, we really want to work with you as our consultant. And we did. Developing it, working out all the particulars of what we would be looking for in Designers and all the variables. And this is actually a much longer and dramatic story than you ever want to listen to because I quit twice having to do with the contract. But at any rate, we worked all that out. And originally we were going to tape all of the show at the Atlas apartment building where the designers were living. And we were looking at a big loft space in the building to be the workroom. And a representative from Miramax came and said, we can't afford to outfit this space. We can barely afford the show. So to buy equipment is unthinkable. Renting it is prohibitive. We can't do it. So I knew that we were taping in August, and I knew that Parsons would be empty because the summer session's over. The fall semester hasn't begun. So I said to everyone, well, come over and look at it. You've only seen my office, so let's look at the facility. And they liked it. And that's how the show landed there. There's another school. I won't mention it. Oh, yes, I will fit. They said that they turned the show down. They didn't turn it down. It was never offered to them. But there was this clamoring for, oh, well, they came to us, but we didn't want it.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Right, right, right.

[Tim Gunn]

You know what else happened? You'll remember Elle magazine was the fashion media sponsor of the number of seasons. They had originally gone to Anna Wintour at Vogue. And she said, absolutely not. I'm not even remotely interested. And then later, when the show was a hit, she called in a group of producers to do another Project Runway. But with her, it didn't happen. But it's interesting. So at any rate, we ended up at Parsons, where a mere 48 hours before the designers were arriving, the producers came to me and asked, would you be willing to go into the workroom and ask them what they're doing? And I said, well, it's how I've spent most of my life, sure. But I have to add, I never dreamed I'd be in the cut of the show because I was very aware of camera placement. There was a camera on the designer. There was another camera on me. And I thought, as long as they have the designer responding to me, no one needs to see me. No one needs to hear my voice. And I truly didn't believe I'd be in the cut of the show. We know that didn't happen.

[April Callahan]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

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[Tim Gunn]

You can Venmo this or you can Venmo that. You can Venmo this or you could Venmo that. You could Venmo.

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[Cassidy Zachary]

I think it's really interesting for one that you had entered fashion in the year 2000. Four years later you're on a reality TV show, and three years after that, the New York Times is calling you the real breakout star or Project Runway and saying that Tim Gunn has become more famous than the designers of the show. And 20 years later, right, this still remains true. I think you and Heidi are intimately connected with that show. You are the heart and foundation of that show that has become incredibly famous. And you know, it's evolved into different things which we might get into. But you both are foundational, and you in particular, as the mentor, as the industry insider who was there from the very beginning, are really, really important into how that show progressed. And I think you were there for 16 seasons.

[Tim Gunn]

Yes, 16 with Heidi. The three that weren't with Heidi were two seasons of Project Runway Jr. Oh, right. And a season of under the Gun about mentoring.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And can you talk about how the show was initially received? Because I don't think the industry welcomed it with open arms.

[Tim Gunn]

Oh, no. I have to say, fashion designers in general had a very positive response because they could say to their family or families, watch this show. You'll have a better understanding of what it is that I do. And the media, the fashion media pushed back a great deal. And I think it's largely because at that time, fashion internationally was cloaked under this veil of mystique and intrigue. And we ripped the veil off and said, look at it. It's dirty. It's incredibly challenging, and you should only do this if you absolutely love it, because otherwise it's simply too daunting.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I'd love if you could share maybe some of those growing pains of the show or those moments that were not necessarily broadcast that maybe you would like to share with us.

[Tim Gunn]

I'll share one thing about my transition from teaching to mentoring, because I wasn't making necessarily the right connections. Season one, Episode one. I'm in the sewing room threading a bobbin, and Jane Lipsitz is knocking on the door of the sewing room, and she says, tim, can you come out in the hallway, please? Yes. She said, what are you doing? I said, I'm threading a bobbin. The designer's having difficulty with it. She said, all right. If you thread the bobbin for her, you have to thread the bobbin for every designer in every single challenge of this show. What? She said, it's a fairness issue. You cannot be doing this. So I thought, I'm out of here. I'm out of here. I'm out. Thank you. And of course, that wasn't even on camera.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. Looking back over 20 years, is there anything that stands out to you or any particular designers that you still stay in touch with after?

[Tim Gunn]

Oh, yeah, I stay in touch with them as much as they want to stay in touch with me. I'm very careful not to be the initiator because it's too much pressure. I don't want anyone to feel an obligation to get back to me. And I'm very proud of so many of them. I mean, when people ask me, why hasn't so and so done more? These designers can only do as much as their ambitions and their resources permit. And that varies person to person. It varies considerably. And it's a tremendously difficult industry, first of all, to get into it all, but then to be able to sustain, it's very Challenging. And it's all about finances, frankly.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And Christian Siriano, I mean, was one of the earliest winners, and he still is probably the most famous fashion designer to come out of Project Runway.

[Tim Gunn]

Definitely. Yeah. No question about that. He was season four, and I was worried about him not winning because the year before, the judges told Daniel Bossevic, who was a finalist, you're too young and inexperienced to win this. And Christian's the same age, the same kind of experience. So when I had my home visit with him, I said, put together a business plan in case you're asked, because I want you to be able to jacuz the judges if they say you're too young and inexperienced. Oh, really? Well, here's my business plan. I liked shaking him up, saying, you've got to be prepared to answer this in a way that's convincing. The designer, I feel probably the worst about in terms of my interaction. I try not to be a blunt instrument unless I have to be. And there was one season when I blew up at a designer swapnil because of his behavior and the fact that he wasn't working and just was a lazy gad about. And I really lost it. But I didn't lose it with this designer. It was Alexander knox in season 13, and it was the everyday woman challenge, where we bring in models from outside. And I was distracted by this garment on his dress form the entire time I was making my workroom rounds because it was so hideous. Just absolutely horrible. The most. Oh, unimaginative textile, the most down and depressing color, odd proportions. The whole thing was just awful. And I approached this work table, and I wanted to get into a real conversation, a real Q and A about, what are you doing? What are you thinking? And I couldn't help myself. I just said, this is the worst garment to ever appear on Project Runway. Oh, no. What are you going to do about it? Yeah. And he was out.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah.

[Tim Gunn]

And he's incredibly talented. He's with coach now.

[Cassidy Zachary]

There you go.

[Tim Gunn]

Yeah. I see him every few months.

[Cassidy Zachary]

We love you for your brutal honesty too, Tim. So that's part and parcel of mentoring. Right? I mean, that's why you're there, is to help these designers. That's the entire purpose.

[Tim Gunn]

When we had the two and three day challenges, I could sort of wait and see what's happening, because I would make the rounds every day. But when we became a one day challenge, there's no time to mince words. You have to get right part of it. But I will say my goal became, it wasn't always. But as I became more conscious of what being a really good mentor is, my goal was always to probe and question the designer enough to get the designer to see what I see so that I don't have to say it. Because if they see it, then it's cemented, and then it's their decision what they do about it. Which is why frequently, more frequently than the producers ever liked, I would ask the designer to come over to the other side of their work table to stand next to me to see what I see. And invariably, that's when they would get it. It's like, oh, I see what you're talking about. It's this hemline and this neckline and how this sleeve is set into the bodice. Great. You see it. Okay. Now it's up to you what you do. That was always my goal to get them to see it. I said it because just saying it doesn't mean anything. And I want them to succeed. I want all of. All of them to.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Were there any designers you particularly connected with or any moments, like looking back that you're most proud of in terms of seeing the progression designers made under your mentorship?

[Tim Gunn]

Well, I won't say it's. I mean, it happened while they were on the show. I won't attribute myself to that happening or for causing it to happen. I'm proud of them all the time and what they're achieving. It's the same high that I would get in my classrooms at Parsons. To be able to bear witness to an individual having an epiphany about what they can achieve, what they can do, is the greatest thrill of anything that I've ever experienced. So just to be present for it is wonderful. I never pat myself on the back, just as I don't admonish myself. When a designer goes home, it's Project Runway musical chairs. Someone's going home. But no, to watch this happen is the biggest pie I ever get.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And you briefly mentioned this a minute ago, but how did you grow with the show? Because, again, you're fairly new to fashion, right? So you really are growing alongside the show in many ways. You've never done anything like this in front of the camera. Can you talk about what the show taught you as well?

[Tim Gunn]

I have to say, in some ways, having taught three dimensional design for many years, a transition to a particular discipline, and I don't say this lightly, it's not that difficult. You're still looking at silhouette, proportion, form, color, relationships. So in some ways, I think the fact that I'm not A fashion designer. Both in my role in Project Runway and my role in the fashion department at Parsons was really an advantage. I didn't have an ax to grind. I didn't have a particular pedagogical point of view other than quality and relevance. And I think it really helped me because we've had judges on the show who tell you what they would do. Oh, I would have bought this fabric. I would have created this silhouette. I would have done this. And that. It's not your design. You didn't do it. One of the wonderful things about Michael is that he disassociates. He really channels what the designer is attempting to do, and he responds to that. So this whole thing of, well, I would do. Who cares what you would do? It's just not relevant. I have to say, the confidence that I needed was really developed at Parsons, and it would never have been developed if it hadn't been for the fact that stepping into that program in 2000, if it hadn't been such a disaster, because I had to learn, along with the faculty and the students, about what's necessary to really help lead this industry. I mentioned earlier about the designer critic program and things going into final fabric. I didn't know that the students weren't making those decisions, that the critics were. Here's pillai cashmere for that jacket. So what was laid bare the first year of the new curriculum was an absolute absence of any kind of textile knowledge. And then we implemented textile courses, and I was learning right along with the students about that. So it was a huge learning curve and one of tremendous satisfaction, I have to say.

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[Cassidy Zachary]

Priceline. We're probably nearing the end of our time together, but we have to talk about you and Heidi because you really are a match made in fashion heaven. When people talk about the show or you, it's you and Heidi, right? You guys are so foundational to that show. In many ways, you're the beating heart of Project Runway.

[Tim Gunn]

We are an odd couple.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I love it. I love it. Can you talk about your relationship with Heidi and how that relationship blossomed, both personally and professionally? Because as we've known from our first interview with you, and you've also mentioned you, you all went on from Project Runway to continue working together with Making the Cut.

[Tim Gunn]

Yeah, we loved Making the Cut, and we desperately missed Project Runway. But Making the Cut allowed us to do the things that we wanted, had wanted to do for many seasons on Project Runway. I have to say, I love and adore Heidi more than I can adequately express. And I don't stand alone in that. Every crew member worships her. She's just. She's always has a smile. She's never late. She knows what to do and when to do it. But I will tell you this. For the first, oh, probably three or four seasons, and maybe the whole time we were on Bravo, I was petrified around her. She just has such confidence and is so in command that I just. I felt very intimidated. But that was my own doing. She wasn't putting that on me. And I have to say, too, as gorgeous and stunning as she is on camera, she's even more breathtaking in person. I had her hand in mine once, and I said, heidi, even your knuckles are gorgeous. But when I really. There was. There was a moment between us that she remembers. And I remember it was season six, our first season with Lifetime, and we were taping in California and Los Angeles, and we were on a soundstage, and I was going to the set. I was walking to the set, and there's a teenage girl standing outside. She has a nice coffee, and she's just standing. And I said, hello, and she said, hi. And I said, heidi. It was Heidi without any makeup, without her hair done. A teenage girl. And we still talk about that moment. Remember when you thought I was a teenager? Yes.

[Cassidy Zachary]

It's not fair. So Heidi just announced that she's returning to Project Runway after an eight year hiatus. Everyone's very excited, but I'm sure I'm not alone with my very first or very next question was. Okay, great, Tim's. Coming back, too. Can you tell us why you are not returning to Project Runway? Tim, to the dismay of all of.

[Tim Gunn]

Your beloved fans, Heidi and I began texting about this. She initiated it, oh, months ago, saying, there's talk about wanting to bring back Project Runway with us, and would you do it? I said, would I do it? I do it in a heartbeat. So we text again, several months later, again, she initiates it, saying, how do you feel about your contract? And I wrote back, and I said, well, I haven't seen one. And she said, well, when you get it, let's talk. So I called my agent, and he said, good heavens, she's fast. I mean, my agent's on top of everything. And he had been in touch with the production company, and they said very matter of factly to him, and he was quite hesitant to tell me this, and I said, jonathan, I'm a big boy. Just tell me. They said, we don't want him.

[Cassidy Zachary]

What?

[Tim Gunn]

Yeah, we don't want him. So he said to them, 16 seasons with Heidi, an Emmy Award and multiple nominations. Thank you. No, we don't want him. So I wasn't asked back. Then three weeks later, they contacted Jonathan to say, we've been thinking about it. We'd like Tim to do a brief cameo in one episode. And without even hesitating, I said, absolutely not. First of all, what would I do? But secondly, how humiliating. I'm going there to do this cameo. Why? And My fabulous publicist, CeCe York, said, I know why. Because they're going to use you in the promotions. They're going to let people think that you're back.

[Cassidy Zachary]

It's one of those cutting off your nose despite your face situations where the value is being underestimated in favor of whatever reasoning they have. It doesn't make any sense.

[Tim Gunn]

I can't disagree. And I have to tell you, I was devastated at first. Then resignation set in. And then I thought, you know, why am I boohooing? I've had all these wonderful seasons of the show. I'm so proud of it. I have my fabulous friendship with Heidi. I have the Emmy award. What am I boohooing about? I'm an extremely lucky guy. But Heidi's not exactly happy about this either.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Well, and people. I mean, now that people are listening to this podcast or they've read, I know there was a People magazine article this past weekend, it is not going to go unnoticed. And I don't think this is going to be the last we hear about it. Because if you're bringing Back Heidi, you bring back Tim. You both, you are the heart of that show. And together you created that show. You were the reason that show succeeded. I know I'm not alone when I share that sentiment.

[Tim Gunn]

I would never project this onto Heidi. I have too much love and respect for her. But were I to be on the show without her, I would simply say, I'm not doing it.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, it's not the same. It's completely different.

[Tim Gunn]

Right.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And I honestly, I stopped watching the show when you two left. And so I will not be back either. But, you know, I have the reruns I can watch and I have Making the Cut that I can watch to get my Tim Gunn fixed. And I know this will not be the last hear from you. And it's just always such a pleasure talking to you, Tim. And before we go, I just wonder if you want to just comment on, you know. So it's been 20 years of Project Runway, 25 years of your entry into fashion. Looking back over that time, what are you most proud of?

[Tim Gunn]

As much as I revere Project Runway, and I do, I'm proudest of what I was able to do at Parsons or what Parsons was was able to let me do there because I wouldn't have the courage to do it again today, or the strength. It was really, truly daunting.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Well, and that's why I really want to talk about your time at Parsons, because your fame has perhaps overshadowed that, but I think it's so foundational to everything and really helps us to understand who you are and where you come from. And dress listener, you'll just have to listen to our first interview with Tim so you can really hear about his origin story and more about your childhood and your path into Parsons too, because we got into that in that conversation. Tim, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us and gifting us everything that you have.

[Tim Gunn]

Cassandy, thank you. I'm very grateful and it's always so delightful to speak with you and I look forward to the next time.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yes, absolutely. You'll have to come back.

[Tim Gunn]

Thank you, Tim.

[April Callahan]

Thank you so much for joining us again. And Cass dress listeners, what a complete shock to most of us that he is not returning to Project Runway at Heidi's side.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yes, quite a shock. And frankly, just such a poor and short sighted decision again, in my humble opinion, on the part of the show's producers. And no doubt we have not heard the end of this, but regardless, Tim knows his value and worth and what he contributed to that show's success, as do all of his fans. And there are so many. We are not alone. And this is not to say that this is the last we will hear from Tim. I can assure you of that. He really is such an important voice in fashion, just a gem of a human being. And I know we will be hearing more from him very soon.

[April Callahan]

On that note, Dress listeners, that does it for us today. Until next time, may you consider taking Tim's make it Work wisdom into your daily life. Next time you get dressed, please head to Dressed Underscore podcast on Instagram or at Dress Podcast without the Underscore on Facebook to check out the video visual content associated with each week's episodes.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And remember, we always love hearing from you, so if you'd like to write to us, you can do so@hello dressedhistory.com dressedhistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And you can check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.

[April Callahan]

We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you are interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop dressed and there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles and.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? You can now sign up for Ad free listening with any tier on our Dressed History Patreon where you can also chat with your fellow fashion history lovers and attend one of our live Q&As and so much more.

[April Callahan]

We are also excited to now be part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free History subscription Airwave History plus available on Apple Podcasts. The subscription brings dress and also 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for just $5.99 per month. More information on Patreon and Airwave is available at the link link in our bio.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Thank you as always for tuning in and more Dressed coming your way very soon. Dressed the History of Fashion is a production of Dressed media.

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