A History of Pockets, part II, an interview with Dr. Ariane Fennetaux

Summary

Dressed: The History of Fashion

Episode: A History of Pockets, Part II: An Interview with Dr. Ariane Fenneaux
Release Date: January 10, 2025
Hosts: April Calahan and Cassidy Zachary
Guest: Dr. Ariane Fenneaux

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Introduction to the Episode

In the second installment of their exploration into the history of pockets, hosts April Calahan and Cassidy Zachary welcome fashion historian Dr. Ariane Fenneaux to delve deeper into the evolution and significance of tie-on pockets in European and American women's wardrobes from the 17th to the 19th centuries.

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The Significance of Multiple Pairs of Pockets

Dr. Fenneaux begins by explaining why women historically owned multiple pairs of pockets:

Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [02:44]: "Because you could have different... any linen came in pairs, really, or dozens of pairs really."

Multiple pockets allowed women to switch them for cleanliness or different occasions. For instance, she recounts a Victorian novel where a woman has to change her pocket after a puppy makes a mess:

Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [02:44]: "A classic example is a story... she has to ask the servant to go and fetch a fresh pair."

In some documented cases, women owned up to 18 pairs of pockets, highlighting their essential role across various social and economic classes.

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Contents of Women's Pockets

A pivotal discussion centers on what women carried in their sizable, often detachable pockets:

Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [05:18]: "Money is one big, a big thing that you find... as well as these removable parts of your dress."

Common items included money, jewelry, removable Garment parts (like cuffs and neckerchiefs), handkerchiefs, letters, diaries, and even unconventional items like live ducks—illustrating the pockets' enormous capacity:

Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [05:18]: "We have a woman who tries to steal two ducks... though this wouldn’t fit in modern pockets."

Furthermore, duplicates (pawn receipts) played a critical role for poorer women, acting as a form of currency and personal security:

Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [10:20]: "They held the possibility of the value of the object it stood for... Some women... it was a way of making ends meet."

These duplicates were recognized legally as valid currency, emphasizing their economic importance.

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Privacy and Security Concerns

The intimate nature of pockets made them both a vessel for personal items and a target for theft. Dr. Fenneaux discusses the paradox of pockets as private yet vulnerable spaces:

Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [20:42]: "Pockets are really interesting in relation to privacy... the pocket was an obvious space to investigate."

Incidents of pickpocketing were not uncommon, with thieves adept at accessing pockets hidden beneath multiple layers of clothing. Dr. Fenneaux recounts methods used by thieves, including cutting pocket strings or making slits to extract contents:

Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [14:36]: "They would lift your gown... sometimes cut the string of the pockets to get the contents out."

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Pockets as Tools of Mobility and Independence

Pockets were indispensable for women navigating urban landscapes, serving as portable storage for essential belongings:

Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [31:17]: "Pockets did not have safe accommodation... They carried what they had... it allows you to move places."

For women in precarious economic situations or employed as servants, pockets provided the necessary flexibility and mobility to manage daily tasks and responsibilities without relying on external storage.

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Symbolism and Relationship to Social Movements

The decline of traditional tie-on pockets in favor of handbags coincided with significant social changes, including the women's suffrage movement. Dr. Fenneaux explores the symbolic connections between pockets and women's autonomy:

Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [43:00]: "There's an interesting dovetailing of issues between women's suffrage... and having pockets or modern day pockets."

She draws parallels between the rhetoric used against women's suffrage and similar sentiments expressed regarding the utility and propriety of women's pockets.

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Modern-Day Implications and Pocket Equality

Addressing contemporary concerns, Dr. Fenneaux affirms that modern women's clothing often features smaller or impractical pockets compared to men's attire:

Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [43:00]: "Modern day clothes, women's clothes are notorious in lacking pockets... Yes, there's a pocket inequality question at the moment."

She references studies showing that women's jeans have significantly smaller pockets than men's, affecting the ability to carry everyday items like smartphones.

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Illustrative Case Studies

Two poignant case studies highlight the personal impact of pockets:

1. Catherine Eddowes (Victim of Jack the Ripper): Her numerous pockets contained fragmented items reflecting her struggles to maintain dignity amidst poverty:

   Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [26:23]: "She was just living in really unstable, challenging circumstances in London... her pockets were part of that resilience."

2. Margaret Deas' Pocket for Annie Sterling (1851): An elaborate, embroidered miniature pocket made by a Glasgow prison inmate, symbolizing personal expression and a small act of autonomy within the oppressive environment of a panoptic prison:

   Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [33:31]: "She was creating a space that is her own... regardless of whether she puts anything in it."

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Conclusion and Reflections

Hosts April and Cassidy reflect on the enduring legacy and emotional resonance of pockets:

Cassidy Zachary [49:16]: "Historical costumers and dressmakers are making renditions... you too can participate in the tie on pocket trend."

They encourage listeners to appreciate the political and personal dimensions of fashion choices, contemplating how pockets symbolize broader themes of privacy, autonomy, and equality.

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Final Thoughts

Dr. Fenneaux’s insights underscore the multifaceted role of pockets in women's history—from practical storage to symbols of independence. The episode eloquently connects historical practices with modern-day fashion debates, inviting listeners to reconsider the seemingly mundane aspect of everyday attire.

For those interested in a deeper exploration, the hosts recommend Dr. Fenneaux’s book, Pocket: A Hidden History of Women's Lives 1660-1900, which features extensive research and over 400 images of historical tie-on pockets.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [10:20]: "Duplicates are recognized in the eyes of a court as having the money that's written on them."
• Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [26:23]: "Her pockets were part of that resilience... trying to keep her appearance, to keep her life together."
• Dr. Ariane Fenneaux [43:00]: "There's a layering of the discourses about having pockets and having suffrage."

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Further Engagement: Listeners are invited to engage with Dressed Media through their website, register for fashion history tours, and participate in upcoming live online courses.

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This summary encapsulates the rich discussions and profound insights shared in A History of Pockets, Part II, offering a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

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[Dr. Ariane Fante]

Yeah, sure thing. Hey, you sold that car yet?

[April Callahan]

Yeah, sold it to Carvana.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy.

[April Callahan]

The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency, no interest over 36 months.

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

Yeah, no.

[April Callahan]

Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Just like that. Yep. No hassle.

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

None.

[Cassidy Zachary]

That is super convenient.

[April Callahan]

Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle for convenience. Pickup fees may apply.

[Podcast Host]

Please enjoy this episode from the Dressed Archive. We will be back with season eight and all new dress content in February 2020.

[April Callahan]

With over seven billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts. I am Cassidy Zachary.

[April Callahan]

And I am April Callahan. So today dress listeners, we are rejoined by Dr. Ariane Fante for part two of our conversation about tie on pockets as they were worn by women during the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And while these types of pockets are far cry from the types of sewn in pockets we have today, tie on pockets were staples of European and American women's wardrobes for centuries and their wear spanned class and economic status. And we are so pleased to welcome Dr. Finto back to learn more.

[April Callahan]

Ariane, welcome back to the show. Last episode we left off discussing some of the decorative motifs and embellishments that were used on pockets. And we will hear a little bit more about how in this episode, how the intimate nature of pockets were both used and viewed at this time. So Ariane, welcome back. I think it might be surprising to our listeners that most women owned several pair of pockets. Why several pairs?

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

Okay, so why several pairs of pockets first? Because you could have different the first purpose is that when a pair of pockets get started, then you have a change of pockets just like you have a change of shift or change of underclothes. And any linen came in pairs, really, or dozens of pairs really. And a classic example is a story that is told in a newspaper. I think of a woman who has put a puppy in her pocket and then her pocket. The puppy does his business in her pockets and she has to ask the servant to go and fetch a fresh pair. So obviously it could come in handy to have more than one pair. Another reason is also that they could come in different types of finish. So there's an interesting novel we looked at which is called Grandmammy's Pockets, and it's a Victorian novel. And in it there is a. The main protagonist is this grandmother who's got different pairs of pockets, and the other protagonist is the granddaughter, Annie, and she's fascinated by her grandmother's pockets. And the grandmother explains that she's got different pockets for different occasions as well. So have the grand pockets for red occasions. And the more practical, mundane pockets that you'll have, she'll wear more on a sort of everyday basis. And you could also decide to match or not match. You could have one in the wash and one in use. So it made practical sense to have different pairs. Some women had, not just three pairs. In inventories, you find women like the most pockets one women had, and that's not necessarily the most that any woman could have. That's the most that we found evidence for is 18 pairs of pockets. So that's quite a lot. Yeah.

[April Callahan]

And one thing that is like our entire conversation hasn't addressed, but it's begging this question, what types of objects were women carrying in their pockets? What were some of the more common objects that women were carrying in their pockets? Because of course, we're talking about them being worn across all sorts of class strata here.

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

The content of pockets is something that is obviously quite fascinating. They are bulky, the pockets are compared to a modern day pockets when we do have pockets, but they are enormous. So you can carry quite a lot, especially if you have a pair or if you wear more than a pair, which women could do. Obviously you could decide to wear two pairs or three pairs if you wanted to. But even if you just had one, just so that your listeners have a visual of what we're talking about, we're talking about something that on average is about 40 centimeters deep, 30 centimeters across. And the biggest pair of pockets we have is one that is 60cm and 45cm across. And a crown is in a pair. So you could carry extraordinary amounts of things, both in terms of bulk and in terms of weight. That leads to some unusual things to carry in your pockets, like live ducks. We have a woman who tries to steal two ducks, presumably one in each pocket. I don't Think we could fit a duck or even a duckling in our modern day pockets. So that kind of gives you an impression of how big they could be. But obviously ducks is not the things you find most commonly in women's pockets. Every time more common are obviously is money. Money is one big, a big thing that you find also other items of clothing. That's another interesting finding, which is that obviously women's clothing, especially in the 18th century, was made up of all these different parts. So your cuffs could come apart, your neckerchief was another layer. And often these removable parts or adjustable parts were something that you could store in your pocket or keep in your pockets when they got removed because you were warm or because it was inappropriate to wear this in the current circumstances where you were. So other items of clothing also jewelry is one thing that's interesting because it's. Jewelry acted both as adornment, you know, a little bit like the removable parts of your dress. You know, are you going to be wearing the earrings or are you not going to be wearing the earrings? But also, jewelry was transformable into cash. It was a bit of property, a valuable property that could be carried and that you may want whether or not you were right. Obviously we look at court cases, so we look at cases when the pockets failed a little bit. But women presumably put jewelry in their pockets to try and safeguard the jury thinking that the pocket would be the safest place to store and keep at hand their valuable belongings. You find also other containers, and that's another interesting finding that we came across, which is that the pocket is a container and it often contains other containers which themselves were contained into other containers. And we noticed this kind of nesting of containers, a little bit like a box of Chinese nests, where women would wrap their coins in a handkerchief, with the handkerchief in the box in a pad, and a purse in the pocket as a kind of ritual of protection of whatever they had. Obviously there's the obvious book, paper based things, books, letters, although these in. When you look at the Old Bailey, for instance, they are often thought to have no value in the eyes of the court. They don't always, they're not always listed in the indictment in the kind of official list of the things that were lost. But they often come in the testimonies when women explain, I had this, but also there was also this ballad in my pocket or this letter I had. Obviously we don't know what was in the letter. When they say a book of memorandum. Was this just notes or was this an actual diary? This Is difficult to tell from the Old Bailey, but from other sources we know for instance, that women did keep their diaries in their pockets, or some women did anyway.

[April Callahan]

And you said that a lot of times the paper based objects didn't necessarily have quote unquote monetary value assigned to them. But in the instance of duplicates, which I thought was fascinating, these really did have monetary value. So what were duplicates and why were they important?

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

So duplicates are really, that's another really interesting thing that surprised us to some extent. So duplicates, basically there are the receipts that the pawn broker would give you when you went to pawn an article. So it's basically a paper receipt. But this paper receipt held the possibility of the value of the object it stood for. And a lot of poorer women in particular actually used pawning as a way of managing their resources, both in terms of boring, because you have to imagine that women lived in really insecure accommodation. Most poorer women lived in shared accommodation, sometimes shared room. So they had no room of their own, they had no cupboard of their own, they had nothing to store their belongings. And even something meager, even if it's not gold or even if it's a hat or your best gown, you would sometimes use the pawnbroker in a way as a storage facility where something where you think your belongings would be safe and in exchange so they wouldn't be stolen, you would have your porn ticket or duplicates to cipher it and you can go and retrieve your object with the duplicate duplicates. And but obviously for other women it was also a way of regulating your cash, your budget. So like you're short of money at the end of the month, so you'll raise money by putting your objects into porn. With that money you can maybe buy this will stop of something, sell it, make a profit, and from the profit you can go and redeem your object. And what's fascinating about the duplicates is sometimes you can see just by how many women kept in their pockets that for some women it was a way of living. It was their source of income, in a way was these duplicates. Some women they describe, I wouldn't say their job, but their how do you make a living? I make a living by selling a few things and pawning. So this was a way of, in a way making ends meet. And it's interesting because as you said, the duplicates, although they are just a piece of paper, they are recognized in the eyes of a court as having the money that's written on them. So what we found is that in a way One of the sort of big ideas about currency is that coins disappear and that you have the banknotes that arise. We didn't find so many banknotes in women's pockets, but what we found was this currency of salt, the duplicates, which is. It's a kind of bill, in a way. It is a kind of currency. It is recognized by the court as currency. Say, we know that it's just a piece of paper, but behind that piece of paper is a silk gown, for instance. And the silk gown is worth a few pounds. So it's something.

[April Callahan]

Absolutely. And also, too, given that the court records were one of the major sources within the book, it's not a surprise, then, that there is a lot of discussion. Discussion of pockets in the context of thefts. Right. Because that was like the dialogue that was happening back and forth. We see the theft of pockets, theft by pockets, which you have already referenced in context of the ducks. But it doesn't seem to be, like, terribly uncommon that women were being robbed of their pockets. So my question to you is, how did this happen? Because we have already established the fact that these were very intimate garments. These were tied about your waist, and they're worn under your skirts. So how is this occurring?

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

Pickpockets were, now and then very gifted at penetrating, in a way, the different layers of women's garments to try and get to the pocket. There's actually an interesting sort of autobiography of a pickpocket who discusses the difference, the most favorable position the pocket to be in, to be attacked, whether. Because obviously the pocket could be worn at different depths in your different sandwich of clothing in between the first petticoat, the second petticoat over your hoops or under your hoops. And you could decide where you would wear them. But pickpockets had different techniques because they're detached. If they're hanging, say, on your hoops, you wouldn't really see peel them against your thighs. So what a thief can do is just lift your sack, that is the outer gown, up and access your pockets. What they did was sometimes cut the string of the pockets. Sometimes they cut a slit at the bottom of the pocket to get the contents out. And some thieves are found because they have blood on their hands, because obviously the knife has backfired on them and they cut themselves. And this is how somebody gets found, because the woman's gonna say, I noticed he had blood on his hand. And then I turned back and I noticed that my pocket was empty and it had a big slit in it. And sometimes it's pure force. Sometimes they're not even trying to do it stealthily. They're just, you know, grab you pull your skirt up and pull out the whole pocket, wrenching the whole pocket off your body to get everything rather than put your hand in your pocket to try and get whatever's in it. So yes, they were quite brazen. Yeah.

[April Callahan]

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[April Callahan]

Welcome back. We're talking about the intimate nature of the pocket being layered within a woman's dress or layers of her dress. But I'm also sure that some of these purloined items were probably of a private nature in and of themselves. The things that were stolen. I'm wondering if you can speak to the role of the pocket in a woman's personal life, because in the book you and Barbara Note I'm quoting you two quote, women's control over this small space was hard won and fragile. And even the pocket could never guarantee women an undisputed experience of privacy.

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

Pockets are really interesting in relation to privacy because women did not necessarily have a place of their own. They did not necessarily have even elite women who we tend to think of as having their little closet and having their little boudoirs where they can retreat and write their letters. That's not really that true. Even elite women we know, like Jane Austen, she didn't really have a place of her own or a room of her own. She wrote in the sitting room, hiding a little bit from her relatives. And Fanny Burney, another kind of published author, part of the she's part of this woman who keeps her. She keeps the last page of her diary in her pocket as a kind of letter. And then she either copies or attaches that page to the rest of the diary. And earlier on in her diary writing, she tells of an incident of losing the last page of her diary because she's gone to write in her father's study, because she doesn't have a study, so he has the desk. And so she goes to use the desk. And this is how she loses the last page of the diary, which obviously she's really embarrassed about being 17. So even elite women did not necessarily have private spaces they actually controlled. So a woman's pocket could often act as the only potential place to experience privacy. Something that at least was kept in the direction vicinity of the body. At night, women had the habit of putting their pocket under the pillow very much as you do when you're traveling. For instance, I don't know whether your listeners are in the old days of traveling anyway, go to hostels or take night rains. But I remember when I was doing my traveling as a teenager, in night range, you would be told to put your pocket or not your pocket, but your bag with your passport and everything under your pillow, thinking, this is the safest place. I feel it at night if somebody tries to pinch it. So the pocket was, yes, detachable, but also very companionate, intimate object that women always had about their bodies. And obviously this endows the pocket with intimacy already, because even in its very fibers, the pocket would be imbibed with the sense of the warmth of the body, the scent of the body. So it's a very. It's a very intimate object. But intimate doesn't necessarily mean private. And keeping the privacy of the pockets intact is not. It was not always easy because pockets were excess only with the hands, not with the eyes. You had to navigate the different layers of your clothing to access your pocket and its different contents only through your hand. And obviously, when you pull something out, something else might drop, for instance, which is what happened to Shani Burney. So they're not completely sealed. They're not completely immune from either an accident or somebody's prying fingers and eyes.

[April Callahan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

And they're often place where, say, jealous husbands or suspicious fathers might want to look if they're suspecting any private correspondence or any untowards happenings. The pocket was an obvious space to investigate.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah.

[April Callahan]

And I thought that was really especially that the pocket as being the site of, like, external suspicion was that that whole concept played out in a really interesting way when you write about the fact that a lot of girls schools during this time period did not let their students wear pockets because they were acknowledging that these could be instruments of secrecy.

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

I guess it's, it's. It's a separate place, isn't it? It's a pocket always. It's the possibility of secrecy. It's not necessarily secrecy guaranteed or privacy guaranteed, but it opens up the possibility of secrecy or of hiding something. Obviously, in institutional settings like schools or prisons or workhouses, that possibility is always dangerous. Right, yeah. Because you don't know what women might harbor in that possibility of a private space. So that tend to be either very closely monitored or banned or not part of the uniforms. Yeah.

[April Callahan]

Also, in the context of court records, you also note many instances where the contents of a woman's pocket were used in the context of criminal investigations. But one I would like to talk about is perhaps most notably to identify Catherine Eddowes, who was one of the victims of Jack the Ripper in 1888. What types of items were found on her and what was the importance of pockets? Two women who were in similar circumstances to Catherine.

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

So Catherine Eddoes, she's one of the victims of Jack the Ripper. She is not the only one that had pockets. Out of all the victims, there's about five that for whom we have precise coroner's descriptions of what they were wearing. And therefore we know whether or not they had pockets. And I think three of those at least had time pockets. But Catherine Meadows is by far the most detailed in its. In the records we have of what she had. And I think she is very emblematic of poorer London women. Women just trying. The Ripper victims have often been described as prostitutes. They weren't prostitutes. They were just women trying to make ends meet. Catherine, women did not prostitute herself. She was not selling her body. She had a partner. She was just living in really unstable, challenging circumstances in London, just doing bits and pieces to try and keep body and soul together, really. And the pockets that she had when she was found, she had two pairs of pockets. And then other garments that she was wearing had also pockets. So she had quite a lot of containers about her. And it's. I'm really quite touched by the Catherine Meadows because this woman was just struggling. She was just struggling, but she was trying to maintain a dignity. She was trying to maintain her living. She was trying to keep her life going despite very difficult circumstances. And the pockets were part of that, were part of that resilience. And they played a part in collecting the bits and pieces that would allow her to keep her appearance, for instance. So she had little pieces of salt. It's interesting, the contents of her pockets, there's nothing that's whole, everything is a fragment of or a piece of. So she's got pieces of soap, she's got a bit of tobacco, she's got tea and sugar in a little tin, in a little tin box. And we know from different pieces in investigation that the story is that her and her partner were trying to get money by going hop picking in Essex, but they didn't get any wack. So they came back to London really with no money whatsoever and not knowing where they're going to spend the night. And she pawns his boats so that they can at least have some breakfast. And so in her pocket you find the tea and the sugar that they had bought for that breakfast as well as the pawn ticket for his shoes. And this is how actually she gets identified. It's through that pawn ticket. And you really see her, of course in the end, failed strategy to keep it together, but it's not in a way because it felt that the strategy wasn't there. You can see. So she's also got little pieces of rag that she's probably collected to sell to the rag and bone man. You can see, you know, there's something about keeping her appearance. There's a combination, there's the soap I mentioned, there's the tobacco. It's November, she gets found in November. You've got to keep, sustain yourself with something. So her story is really touching because you can see that hardship and you can see the strategies and you can see that her belongings are meager, very humble and then fragmented, but they're still organized. So it's not the same type of belonging that's in this pocket to the ones that are in that other pocket. So she's organizing her world, whatever that consists of, in, among or across her different containers to try and, yeah, keep in order, keep her life together. And I find this quite touching.

[April Callahan]

Yeah. And also too could definitely be argued that pockets were very much used to aid a woman's mobility through navigating the urban landscape. Right. Some of the accounts, not just hers, but some of the other ones that you go into really detail how a lot of these women who were in these really challenging circumstances were using their pockets to carry just about every physical belonging that they had.

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

Yeah. Because women did not have safe accommodation. They did not really have somewhere where they could lock it up, whatever they had up and go there. They carried what they had and Obviously some women wore different petticoats to keep warm, but also to put them somewhere, stay fit or as safe as possible. And it's the same with the pockets. Like you keep everything you have in your pockets because that's as safe as it's going to get and it allows you to move places. And obviously for people in challenging circumstances that mobility is going to be key because it's going to give you the adaptability, the flexibility to go to Kent or to go to Essex and then come back to maybe try that lodging house, find that therefore go to this other lodging house with your everything, your little world around you or about you. So that, and it's the same with servants, for instance. Servants is an occupation that you find obviously many women engaged in where mobility is really important because you're although you're trying to find a place. So in a way you're trying to find somewhere where you're not going to be moving your position, somewhere you're stable. Really the life of service was a life and mobility forced or not even once you were in a position you still had to run around. And the VET pockets were really important because they are portable, you can carry quite a lot, whether it's your belongings or your mistresses belongings to and it leaves your hands free. So it is an instrument of mobility and freedom even if this is to try and stay afloat in challenging circumstances.

[April Callahan]

So definitely less macabre than Catherine Eddow's story, but perhaps no less heartbreaking or touching is also the story of Margaret Deas, who was Margaret Deas. And can you tell us a little bit about a pocket that she created for Annie Sterling in 1851?

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

So this is one of my favorites. So basically this is a pocket that is a tiny pocket, it's only a few, it's about 10 centimeters tall. So it's a miniature pocket rather than a functional pocket. And it's fascinating because it's is it was made by this woman called Margaret Diaz who is an inmate in a Glasgow prison. And what is fascinating about it is not so much its size but the fact that it's embroidered in the woman's, we assume what is her own hair. And it's embroidered in this sentimental motto that says Forget me not and then her name, Margaret Diaz. And it was made by this inmate in the prison and given as a gift to the governor's wife, Annie Stirling. Now unfortunately, we do not know what happened to Margaret Diers after she gave that pocket. Whether the forget me not was related to anything tragic for her, whether she was deported or she was sentenced or she was just leaving the prison and she didn't want to be forgotten. But obviously it's a very touching story because of what we were discussing before as well. She is in this prison and we know the prison. We've made some research about the prison and we know that this is a prison that was implementing the kind of Jeremy Bentham's idea of a panoptic. In a prison where everything is supposed to be visible, you're supposed to see into the cells and inmates are under constant supervision and a constant gaze. So there's this kind of scopic dream or nightmare in place in that prison, obviously having a small pocket, even if it's made potentially under the supervision of the governor's wife. Because we know that sometimes there were educational things or projects made with inmates. We know that having, creating that space is potentially always subversive. You know what she could put, although it's small, she could still put something in that pocket. She could still create a space that is her own. Whether or not, in a way she puts anything in it, she's still creating a space of her own.

[April Callahan]

This is a very intimate story, right? She is making this pocket, she is embroidering it with her own hair. So there's this level of intimacy and sentimentality to this story that I'd like to parlay into pointing out that pockets were often made for friends, relatives, and they were often given as gifts. So why was it that pockets were viewed as a token of friendship?

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

That's an interesting question. And points really. So relationship between pockets and friendship, which could work in two ways, because you could make pockets for friends or relatives, you could give your pocket to a friend in your will or receive a pocket of your friends in a will. But pockets, because they also harbored small objects that could be sentimental in nature because they were companion objects which held other companionate things. They also formed this kind of very feminine space, sort of space for inter female relationships. Because friends would give each other little things to put in each other's pockets, like symbols or handkerchiefs or purses that they had made for each other. So, and it's something that is when people say, yeah, men also had pockets, and yes, men had pockets, but they didn't make their own pockets. And I don't think there was this traffic of femininity of female things as much or of male things as much in men's pockets. I think there's something very specific about the femininity of that space and how Both in its exterior and in its interior. It was for women, by women, through other women. And it's maybe why it was seen as also threatening because it was a space that men had very little to do with. Yeah.

[April Callahan]

So eventually, as we transition into the tail end of the 19th century and into the 20th century, we start to see the popularity of tion pockets dissipate slowly. Didn't happen overnight. But my question to you is, do you think that this has anything to do with the increasing use of handbags?

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

The question of. The famous question of handbags and pockets. Another question that's puzzled us all through the writing of the book. I'd say that this is not a new. The question of handbags and pockets is not something that suddenly appears in the 19th century. Handbag or a handheld bag, although it wasn't quite a handbag, but it was a bag held in the hand, had been there since the 17th century. Women had gaming bags, had work bags, had different bags that they carried in their hands. In the end of the 18th century, the beginning of the 19th century, you obviously have the reticule. There is small pass outside first that is supposed or seen by a dress historian often as the first handbag that if you listen to the press, if you listen to the fashion press of the time, just eradicates the town. Pockets. The traditional narrative was that women had pockets in the 18th century. Then the reticule appeared and pockets were out, and then women had the reticule and then they had the handbag. What we found is that although the press said you are old fashioned, you carry on wearing pockets, any respectable, young, fashionable woman will want to reticule these days. That's not really what women did. So that was a fascinating insight that what the press was telling women to do about what is fashionable, what is appropriate, wasn't necessarily what women actually did. Fashion and dress practices are not always the same. And women are not necessarily swayed by the latest fad saying, oh, abandon your pockets. They're unfashionable because pockets were called unfashionable for at least half of their lives. They're just in discourses cast as old fashioned, unfashionable. The kind of accessory of dodgering old women. What is the handbag or the reticule supposed to be? The modern new thing. So that's not a new thing, that's not a new sort of contrast or a new debate. I think what changes in the 19th century is not necessarily the handbag. So much there may be more. The fact that women start working in more. In the same types of jobs, or not really the same types, but then they have more careers in offices, in jobs where at the end of the 19th century, you start having more tailored suits for women. So it's also the people making women's clothes that change and it starts being more tailors. And tailors had always been used to making pockets, inserting pockets for men. So I'm not sure it's the handbag really that's displaced or overthrown the pockets. I think it's a combination of factors, but it's very difficult to explain why something appears and why something disappears.

[April Callahan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

Why did pockets end? Yeah.

[April Callahan]

And on that same note, a lot of the listener requests that we've gotten for an episode on pockets have come to us with this question of asserting that modern day women's clothing has less frequently pockets than men's clothing. So it could be argued, yes. It could be argued, no. I'm curious, as obviously you and Barbara have thought extensively on the topic of pockets, much more so than many people. I'm curious to know if you have any thoughts on this. Do modern day women's clothing contain less pockets? And if so, what does that mean?

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

So my answer is yes, modern day clothes, women's clothes are notorious in necking pockets, from fake pockets in jeans to no pockets in dresses or skirts, and then pockets in jeans that are supposed to be a unisex type of garment that you probably your listeners will know, but probably the study that was done by the website the Pudding, measuring the average size of pockets in different brands, American brands of jeans for men and for women, and finding that the average women's jeans pocket is I can't remember how many inches shorter and narrower than the equivalent in the same brand for men, and what objects you can and cannot fit in this or that pocket or brand, whether you can fit your iPhone or not your iPhone. So, yes, obviously there is a pocket question, a pocket equality question at the moment. What's interesting though is that this question of the kind of inferiority of women's pockets in relation to men's pockets was not really a question, was not really raised until the pockets we're talking about in the book disappeared. Now, you could be provocative a little bit and say that because there is an interesting dovetailing of issues between the women's suffrage, women getting the vote, so the suffragist movement, and a moment at the end of the 19th century when women don't really have as much the town pockets that we described, but they don't really have real pockets either. So they're in a kind of no pocket zone. And there is a layering of the discourses about having pockets and having the suffrage. And there's even a funny text using the all the anti suffrage rhetoric that was used at the time, using it as if it was written about pockets and why should women not be given pockets? Just like you had the rhetoric, why should not women be given the votes? So there's an interesting kind of correlation between women getting the vote enfranchisement and having pockets or modern day pockets. And even later, when women did get the vote in Britain anyway, or some women did get the vote in Britain, Gwen Reveret, who's the granddaughter of Charles Darwin and who's an artist and she's got a really nice piece where she remembers her childhood and she says, oh, in those days we had pockets and I remember everything I put in my pockets. And she lists all the wonderful hoards that she could only fit in those really big pockets and not in the pockets of 19th Britain or contemporary Western world. Anyway, it ends with we have suffrage, but why can't we have pockets? If you want to be provocative, you could say that. It's interesting that in a way the bulky, very capacious pockets that we're describing arrived at a time when women were given the right to private property in their own name and were given suffrage. So is it payback? Is it payback for taking the pockets away? Is this your blood money for a sort of retaliation for other powers or empowering tools, the suffrage or accessing property in your own right? But we're not pushing that argument in the book. I'm just playing with the.

[April Callahan]

Yeah, thank you so much. This was incredibly fascinating. This episode is going to make a ton of people super, super happy. It's only been four seasons in the making. So thank you so much, Dr. Fenito, for joining us and we really appreciate it.

[Dr. Ariane Fante]

Thank you.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Thank you once again, Ariane, for joining us for this fascinating two part episode.

[April Callahan]

Yeah, and Cass, on that last note about the pocket's evolution and connection to the suffrage movement, I'd also just like to mention an essay which Ariane and Barbara referenced in the book. And it was an essay written in 1895 by none other than one of the leaders of the American suffrage movement, Elizabeth Caddy Stanton. And this essay was entitled the Pocket Problem. So clearly many of our modern day consternations regarding pockets and women's garments, they were shared by our counterparts more than 125 years ago.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And our interview with Dr. Finto only scratches the surface of many of these issues. If you'd like to learn more, we highly recommend picking up a copy of the Pocket A Hidden History of Women's Lives 1660-1900 as there's just so much more to say on the topic. Not to mention the wonderful images that are in this book of some of the 400 pairs of extant tie on pockets which they examined in the course of their research. Some of them are just sublimely beautiful. This book is incredible. I highly recommend this and I can.

[April Callahan]

Vote we all just start wearing tie on pockets again. And I was thinking about this and then I was like. And then I realized I was like oh Cass and I already do. I don't know if we've talked about this. I think we maybe briefly mentioned this on the show before, but you have been a really big fan of fanny packs. Oh yeah, or as they're called in the UK bum bags for quite a while and it was only finally this summer that I converted to them because I was riding my bike everywhere. Cause it didn't. It was still Covid and I didn't want to take the subway in New York City during the middle of a pandemic. And so now I get it. It is so easy and convenient to have your hands free. So if you think about it, fanny pack bags have been a lot of ways this modern day incarnation of tie on pockets.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, and if you want to be a little more literal dress listeners, you'll probably remember from our interview last week with Christine of Sewstine that there are a lot of historical costumers and dressmakers who are making renditions or their own versions of these historical tie on pocket. So you too can participate in the tie on pocket trend that April and I are voting for to start back Burma. That does it for our two part episode on A History of the Pocket Dress listers. May you consider the political implications of the Pocket next time you get dressed.

[Podcast Host]

Dressed will be back with Susanie an all brand new episode in February of next year.

[April Callahan]

But until then, remember we love hearing from you. So if you would like to write to us, you can do [e-mail] dressedhistory.com is also where of course you can register for our tours, our trips, our new class, anything else that we have up our finely tailored sleeves.

[Podcast Host]

That includes April's twice weekly in person fashion history tours of the Metropolitan Museum of Art as well as our brand new dress to School of Fashion live online course, the 1950s Golden Age Haute Couture which is now open for registration, and we do have gift cards available for both April's tours and the class. So just send us an [e-mail] and also send us an email if you want to get on the first to Know list for our New York City Day Tours coming your way in April 2025 and our Paris Fashion History Tours coming your way in June. Registration for both of these tours will open in January and we do expect them to sell out, so send us an email to get on those lists.

[April Callahan]

Thank you as always for your continued support. Dressed will be coming back your way for Season 8 in early February. Dressed the history of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.

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