An Interview with "Gernreich Girl" Barbara Flood (Dressed Classic)

Summary

Podcast Summary: An Interview with "Gernreich Girl" Barbara Flood (Dressed Classic)

Podcast Information:

• Title: Dressed: The History of Fashion
• Host/Author: Dressed Media
• Episode: An Interview with "Gernreich Girl" Barbara Flood (Dressed Classic)
• Release Date: July 11, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Dressed: The History of Fashion, hosted by April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary, listeners are treated to an in-depth conversation with Barbara Flood, a prominent figure in the fashion industry during the 1960s. Barbara's unique experiences as a model, her relationship with the avant-garde designer Rudi Gernreich, and her enduring passion for fashion offer rich insights into a transformative era in fashion history.

Barbara Flood’s Early Life and Introduction to Fashion

Barbara Flood begins by sharing her upbringing in New York City, where her father owned a knitwear company, Barbara Carroll Knits. Surrounded by designers like Ann Fogerty, Barney Cashin, and Liz Claiborne, Barbara developed an early appreciation for fashion. Reflecting on her childhood, she states:

Barbara Flood [04:00]: "I grew up as a kid in fashion. My dad was a really, he was very tiny, but he was a very smooth dresser. And he was just always, his closets were perfect and everything in it."

Her modeling career kicked off at the age of 13 when she participated in a sweater ad, marking her entry into the fashion world.

Modeling Career in the 1960s

Barbara recounts her professional modeling journey, emphasizing the vibrant atmosphere of the New York Garment District during the 1960s. She highlights the camaraderie among models and the energetic environment of 7th Avenue:

Barbara Flood [06:30]: "It was a lot of hustle and bustle, I must say. And it was wonderful, especially as compared today, where we're barely in the street. So it was a different world. Completely different world then."

Barbara worked with renowned designers such as Anne Klein, Donna Karan, and notably, Rudi Gernreich. She describes her early days at the Gillis McGill agency, where she was one of the few models under 5’10”, allowing her to specialize in junior lines on 7th Avenue.

Relationship with Rudi Gernreich

A significant portion of the interview delves into Barbara's relationship with Rudi Gernreich, a pioneering designer known for his avant-garde and androgynous designs. Barbara shares how she met Gernreich through a mutual friend and quickly became one of his favored models:

Barbara Flood [16:00]: "He had an extraordinary talent and he was one of my favorite people. But I worked for everybody, so it was yeah, I worked for Anne Klein when Donna Karan was designing for Anne Louis Delorio."

Their professional relationship blossomed into a personal friendship, allowing Barbara to influence Gernreich's designs actively. She praises his openness and innovative spirit:

Barbara Flood [22:10]: "He gave us all the permission to be ourselves. And we had all a very great relationship with him. And he understood because he had started as a dancer. And he just knew the body and he knew how to put clothes on it."

Insights into the 1960s Fashion Industry

Barbara provides a firsthand account of the dynamic and collaborative nature of the 1960s fashion scene. Unlike the competitive environment today, models worked together harmoniously, fostering a supportive community:

Barbara Flood [17:07]: "At that period of time, we didn't have the kind of competition that it's been. It was later on, everybody loved each other. Everybody looked out for each other."

She highlights the creative process involved in fashion shows, where models like herself could contribute ideas to enhance the designs, fostering a sense of ownership and creativity.

Transition to Styling and Entrepreneurship

As Barbara's modeling career progressed, she ventured into styling and eventually opened her own boutique. She describes her boutique as a “secret boutique” operated from her apartment, allowing her to curate and send personalized fashion selections to clients:

Barbara Flood [35:25]: "It's like my workspace. And people call on the phone, and if they want something, I just tell them, or I say, I'm going to send you this, that, and the other thing."

Barbara's boutique not only focuses on vintage clothing but also includes furniture, pottery, and art, reflecting her holistic approach to style and individuality.

Personal Philosophy on Fashion and Individuality

Throughout the interview, Barbara emphasizes the importance of individuality and personal expression in fashion. She advocates for wearing what makes one feel authentic and comfortable, rather than conforming to trends:

Barbara Flood [38:00]: "People should try to find their own individuality. They shouldn't try to copy because it's better to try what you like and see what you like, even if it's wrong."

She underscores the therapeutic and joyful aspects of dressing, linking it to emotional well-being and self-expression.

Legacy and Continued Influence

Barbara reflects on the lasting impact of Rudi Gernreich's designs and his relevance in contemporary fashion:

Barbara Flood [27:06]: "He had that ability to project the future, which was quite extraordinary. I love being. And Stanley loved him too. He was so sweet with us when he took us out to dinner in California and he was so delightful."

Barbara expresses hope that Gernreich's innovative spirit would thrive if he were still active today, highlighting his forward-thinking approach and the timelessness of his designs.

Conclusion

The interview concludes with Barbara sharing her ongoing passion for fashion and her commitment to maintaining her unique style. She reflects on the changes in the fashion industry and the importance of staying true to oneself:

Barbara Flood [40:39]: "Physically and emotionally, it makes you feel better. Because through the period of time, for instance, at the beginning of this pandemic, it was three months and you couldn't get your hair colored."

Barbara Flood's story offers a captivating glimpse into the vibrant world of 1960s fashion, the collaborative spirit of the New York Garment District, and the enduring legacy of designers like Rudi Gernreich. Her dedication to individual style and creative expression continues to inspire fashion enthusiasts today.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Barbara Flood [04:00]: "I grew up as a kid in fashion. My dad was a really, he was very tiny, but he was a very smooth dresser."
• Barbara Flood [06:30]: "It was a lot of hustle and bustle... a completely different world then."
• Barbara Flood [16:00]: "He had an extraordinary talent and he was one of my favorite people."
• Barbara Flood [22:10]: "He gave us all the permission to be ourselves."
• Barbara Flood [17:07]: "At that period of time, we didn't have the kind of competition that it's been."
• Barbara Flood [35:25]: "It's like my workspace. And people call on the phone..."
• Barbara Flood [38:00]: "People should try to find their own individuality."
• Barbara Flood [27:06]: "He had that ability to project the future, which was quite extraordinary."
• Barbara Flood [40:39]: "Physically and emotionally, it makes you feel better."

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This episode of Dressed: The History of Fashion not only honors Barbara Flood's remarkable journey but also preserves the rich history of a pivotal era in fashion. Her anecdotes and reflections provide valuable perspectives for anyone interested in the evolution of fashion and the individuals who shaped it.

Transcript

[Cassidy Zachary]

Close your eyes, exhale, feel your body.

[April Callahan]

Relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[Barbara Flood]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh my gosh, they're so fast.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And breathe.

[Barbara Flood]

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste.

[April Callahan]

Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.

[Barbara Flood]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

Dress listeners, bonjour from Paris.

[Barbara Flood]

Yes, we are currently on our annual summer hiatus from the show as we conduct our summer fashion history tours of the City of Lights. But worry not, we will be back in August with brand new content dedicated to all of the exciting fashion history exhibitions and other behind the scenes experiences we have encountered here.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Until then, please enjoy this episode from the Dressed Archive of over 500 past shows. The History of Fashion is a production of dressed media. With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.

[Barbara Flood]

Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are friends, fashion historians and your hosts April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary.

[Cassidy Zachary]

So Tuesday we learned about the extraordinary life and career of fashion designer Rudi Gernreich and today we get to speak to one of his models.

[Barbara Flood]

Yes, and we are so pleased to welcome past Dressed guest Barbara Flood back to the show. Last season we did a wonderful two part episode on Advanced Style during which we had the pleasure of speaking to street style photographer Ari Seth Cohen and his many music, including our guest today, Barbara and her partner of more than 40 years, Stanley. And the couple first met in the 1970s on a film called the Tracks, which Barbara starred in with Dennis Hopper.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, and it's such a fun episode if you haven't listened to it already. Head on back to last season and check it out. I really love learning about Barbara and Stanley's relationship and was admittedly very enthralled by their careers in the 1960s prior to actually when they met, Stanley was the co creator, director of the wildly successful British music TV show Top of the Pops. And Barbara was a model in New York City. And as promised, Barbara is back to discuss her modeling career, including her very special relationship to the groundbreaking designer Rudy Gernreich, the subject of Tuesday's episode. So without further ado, Barbara, welcome back to Dressed. Barbara, welcome back to dress.

[April Callahan]

Oh, thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to speak with you. Yeah.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And I first interviewed you and your partner Stanley Dorfman for our two part episode on Advanced Style. And I was so captivated by your and Stanley stories from the 1960s, you being a model and actress. He the co creator of the hit TV show Top of the Pops. I told you then. But I just knew I had to have you back to learn more about your incredible career.

[April Callahan]

Oh, it's so sweet. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. Talk about a life lived in fashion.

[April Callahan]

Yes, completely. My dad was in fashion. My, my dad had a company called Barbara Carroll Knits and he was in the knitwear business and he had different designers working for him. He had Ann Fogerty, he had Barney Cashin, he had Liz Claiborne. So I grew up, I grew up as a kid in fashion. My dad was a really, he was very tiny, but he was a very smooth dresser. And he was just always, his closets were perfect and everything in it. And so was my mom. They all had that attitude. And when I was about 13 years old, I, he wanted me to do a sweater ad and model with sweaters. I had, as I said, I had no tits at all. So there I was modeling with my hands behind my head like Marilyn Monroe, but there was nothing in front. So that was my beginning of my modeling career. And then I put it aside to do other things because I wanted to be a dancer, I wanted to be an actor, all of those things until I went back to the modeling.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And because your father was in the clothing industry in the fashion business. And I'm assuming this is in New York, right?

[April Callahan]

Oh, N.Y. 1407 Broadway. So I grew up in the garment center before I was modeling in the garment center. Yeah, he had his buildings, his officers. He was in business with his partner, his brother, and they were at 1407 Broadway.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And because we read about this period, we see it in movies, maybe depicted in scenes like Mad Men and so on and so forth. But do you have memories from that period of going to visit your dad? At work or what it was like back then?

[April Callahan]

Oh, sure, yes. I have definite memories because I was down there a lot because, as I said, even as a young kid, I was interested in fashion. And I was always looking at the magazines and always I never wore what everybody was wearing at the time. I always tried to add something or worked around something. And I would go down all the time to see the collections and to see what was going on. So I have great memories of that. So I. I really grew up down on 7th Avenue from a very young age. And so by the time I got to modeling in that same area, I was very comfortable in there because I was around it so much. It was a great care. It was a lot of hustle and bustle. There were a lot of people outside with racks of clothing, and the fur industry was around the corner, and they were busy. And so it was a very busy area. And you could just feel the excitement of everybody as they were trying to make their new collections and what was happening. And it was a lot of hustle, bustle, I must say. And it was wonderful, especially as compared today, where we're barely in the street. So it was a different world. Completely different world then.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And of course, the garment district isn't quite exactly what it used to be either.

[April Callahan]

Not at all. Not at all. Yeah. Certainly in the last couple of years, and certainly after 9 11, things changed radically. I was just in a taxi there the other day, and 7th Avenue was completely empty. It was so sad. It was really so sad to see that because it was such a thriving, exciting industry. Different. Different today. Yeah.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And where were you shopping? Were you shopping at different boutiques and shops during this period? Did you get a lot of clothes from your dad?

[April Callahan]

I was. And I was. Oh, yes. And I was always in the thrift shops because I always loved vintage clothing. And so even at a young age, I was looking around for vintage furs and vintage clothes. And there was a wonderful boutique on the west side of 72nd street called Isabel, and it was the first vintage clothing place. And I actually bought my son Jonathan, for his 16th birthday, a vintage fantastic tuxedo, really, just from that shop. And we lived at 75th and Central Park west, and this shop was at 72nd and Columbus. So it was my neighborhood. And I would always go in and see what was happening. And so therefore. So I started at a very young age with vintage clothing. And of course, basically, that's my business today, which is mostly vintage, but not always, and art to wear and dressing people and so forth. I always had the feeling for the clothes of the past.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Absolutely. And it shows in what you do today. And we'll talk about that in a bit. But I have to know, do you remember what periods of garments were in these vintage shops at this time? Because today, when we think of vintage, you can still go into a thrift shop and find maybe one or two 1960s pieces, some 1950s. But what type of vintage was in these boutiques?

[April Callahan]

I think it was more in the early 60s, let's say, or the late 50s. They would have clothes from the 40s, 30s and 20s. They didn't particularly. We were. They weren't in the 60s, 70s and 80s yet. So they were there. But they always. They were just. They just had. In this particular shop, actually, her name was Alberta, and she had a wonderful restaurant downtown. And she had an eye that was just extraordinary. And she always had those 1920s dancers, flapper dresses and stuff. And the tuxedos were of the same ilk. And so before Jonathan was even 16, I had gone in and bought this tuxedo because I had to have it, as luckily it fit him. At the time, there weren't a lot of those stores. But she was. Alberta was absolutely extraordinary and she had just great taste. And so in a way, it trained me because I saw the way she put things together and what she had in her. She had a wonderful collection of all those wonderful beaded shawls with fringes from the 1920s that I sell today. And I put on people's pianos to throw around. And then you just wear it as a big shawl and you use each thing for 25 different things. So it was a very exciting period.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And so you were introduced to fashion and it sounds like modeling at a very young age. But you said you went off to do other things as a young woman does.

[April Callahan]

But.

[Cassidy Zachary]

But how did you become a professional model?

[April Callahan]

What happened was that I married at a very young age, a very young age. I was still in college. And I married a very nice guy, also by the name of Stanley, by the way. It's very funny. And that Stanley, when we divorced, ended up marrying a barber. So there you go. But got married because I just thought, this is what everybody's doing. I never thought I'd be in love with anybody. And this was a guy who was really very much in love with me. And he wanted to give me everything. And he was in a kind of position where he could do that. I thought, I'll give this a shot because I'm never going to be in Love. And so we'll give it a shot. So that's what we did. And then I thought, I'm going to have a child, because everybody's having a child, and I want to have a child. But I wasn't sure about the marriage. But then I wasn't sure about it from the beginning. So I had Jonathan. And after Jonathan was born, and again, it was just almost about a year or two after we were married, I thought, I'm not a housewife. I thought, I'm going to see what I can do about modeling. And actually, when I was pregnant with Jonathan, they were doing a charity fashion show for one of those organizations, and I was pregnant, and they called me up and said, would you come and do wear some clothes? And as I'm walking down the Runway pregnant, I thought, this is what I have to do. So after Jonathan was born, I walked out and I went to a wonderful woman called Eva Bernay. This was in the 60s, and she had a wonderful small but interesting agency. And she looked at me and she said, I'm going to take you, and I'm going to give you a name of a very successful model that I had, because I think it suits you and I think it'll work for you. And she said, how would you like the name Flood? And I said, wonderful. Thank you very much. And so she gave me the name Barbara Flood, and I started modeling. And then I went to the great agency of mannequin, of Gillis McGill, which was in the late middle to late 60s, and she had all of 7th Avenue Runway people, and she also had print people. And I was the littlest, shortest one of the group, because everybody was 5 10, 5 11, and I was like, 5, 8. And so I could do all the junior clothes on 7th Avenue. And so she said, and she loved the name Flood. And I started working for her. And that's where I stayed. And that's where I. I did all the rest of my modeling work. And I did print as well, but most of it was live Runway from 7th Avenue, and all the great designers and the Cody Awards and all those big and department stores, the copies of the European collections at Orbax, where they always copied. And they went to Europe and they saw the collections, and then they came home and copied them for America. And I did all those collections, but that's where it started. So I just went from pregnancy to having Jonathan, and who's become a great screenwriter today and did a wonderful movie called Swing Kids, which all the young people who come to my house say, Swing Kids is my favorite movie, so we'll talk about that a little later on. But at any rate, that's where I started my modeling career.

[Barbara Flood]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

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[Barbara Flood]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

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[Barbara Flood]

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[April Callahan]

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[Barbara Flood]

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[April Callahan]

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[Barbara Flood]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

You started your modeling career, but you worked professionally during the 1960s for a whole host of designers. You've talked about modeling with Oscar de la Renta, Valentino, Jean Muir.

[April Callahan]

Jean Muir was extraordinary. But my favorite, I must say, designer that I worked for was Rudi Gernreich and I was one of his five girls and he was the most extraordinary man to work for and he was so ahead of his time in what he saw. He did the topless bathing suit, he did the topless bathing dresses. He had an extraordinary talent and he was one of my favorite people. But I worked for everybody, so it was yeah, I worked for Anne Klein when Donna Karan was designing for Anne Louis Delorio. So Anne Klein was one of my first clients and Capezio was one of my and the shot that I have with the long hair, with the leg up in the air is for Capezio. And that was from the beginning of the modeling career.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And our listeners know that I'm going to be posting tons of fabulous images of Barbara from her. Her modeling days. So I'll definitely post. And I do want to talk to you more about Gernreich, but I also just want to hear a little bit. What was it like to be a model in the 1960s? Because we've interviewed Pat Cleveland, who was a model, got her start in the 60s.

[April Callahan]

I know Pat.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And we've talked a lot about this period and the excitement and this youth cake revolution with the clothing. And it was just such this amazing, exciting time. What was it like for you?

[April Callahan]

It was very exciting. It was just very exciting. First of all, I loved the agency. I loved the girls. At that period of time, we didn't have the kind of competition that it's been. It was later on, everybody loved each other. Everybody looked out for each other. And we were running up and down elevators with our underwear and no clothing to get from place to place and to do the shows. Because at that point, most of the shows that we did were mostly in the buildings and at the place where the business was. And if there were three businesses and you had three shoots that day of fashion shows, you'd be running up and down with no clothes and just racing for the elevators. It was a lot of fun. I worked. Stanley Herman is a great designer. He did a company called Mr. Mort, and he was incredibly successful. It's much more of a junior line. He also, in today's world, is still designing, and he's doing clothes for airline stewardess and so forth. He had a very fun way of working, and it was very friendly. It wasn't scary at all. There were scary times with a lot of photographers who print where you. They were chasing you around the tables and you have to have your wits about you to get out the door. But on 7th Avenue, there was a lot of camaraderie and excitement, and we all wanted to do our best. And we all loved the designers we worked for. I worked for Larry Aldrich. I was. I did the fittings and the showings. And I worked for a wonderful older woman called Marie McCarthy. And she was just lovely. She made the whole collection on me. And then everybody came to show it, including myself. So that when you got a job like that and you could do the fittings for the collection as well as wearing the collection, it was very Exciting. And it was very creative because I never kept my mouth closed. I always had to comment on what I was wearing. And I worked for a wonderful guy who died, unfortunately, Pat Sandler. And I did a lot of collections for him, and he had. And he would always ask my opinion, and I would just say, no, I think it's too long, it's too short. I think as a little girl, I got to understand my eye, and my eye could see somehow if something was an inch too long or an inch too short. I still have that ability to do that. So a lot of the designers that I worked for talk to me about it. And so I wasn't just a stick standing there with clothes being pinned on me and saying, ouch. Occasionally. But I was a person who could contribute to the making and the creation of a dress that would go on to become sold in the hundreds and sold in department stores. And that was a very creative way of working, and it was very exciting.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And I have to say, when I did an archive search for you and I found an article, the very first article I found was of you in the New York Times, and you're with the designer Jack Boddy, and you're in a knitting like factory.

[April Callahan]

Right.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And it's. It stands out because you're the model, but you're. You're quoted in the article, and you're also identified. So there's so many models, I think, in previous decades, maybe that they weren't necessarily known. You didn't know the name of the model. And I think in the 60s, you really start to see models becoming part of the fashion culture.

[April Callahan]

Absolutely. And especially with Halston and all his girls, like Patti Klievinger, who is just a darling person, and all those girls who became. Had their own identity. And I think that's a very important thing. I walked very fast and I smiled, and nobody smiled, but I was always smiling. And you become an individual person. You're just not walking down a Runway or a showroom, have your own attitude, you have your own way of walking. And I think all those girls like Patti, who worked for Pat Cleveland, who worked for Halston and stuff, they all had their own individual style. And I think that was a lot of the creativity, and that was a lot of fun for me to have my own style of who I was and what I was. And also because I was able to speak and talk about things, people listened, and that was very exciting and very creative and.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And as a young woman, you're probably a target audience as well for Their clothing. So for you to being of that target audience and then being a model who then validates their clothing by saying like this. In this article, you say you're going to order half a dozen of these net dresses.

[April Callahan]

There you go. Too much is never enough of me. Hello.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, but it's just so clear in that article.

[April Callahan]

And I'm still like that. I'm absolutely. Nothing has changed. I'm absolutely. It's really amazing. I'm absolutely the same person carrying on, doing clothes, doing the shopping, running around, doing the. It's exactly the way I was then as exactly the way I am now. It's really, really interesting.

[Cassidy Zachary]

You know, I'd love to talk to you a little bit more about Rudy Gernreich because you just mentioned that he was your favorite designer. He's one of my favorite designers, too. What he was doing in the 1960s, even though the 1960s, he was so.

[April Callahan]

Ahead of his time, wasn't he? Yeah.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Very androgynous fashion. He's really the inventor of the thong, the monokini. And he had that philosophy that the naked body was nothing to be afraid of, it was something to be celebrated. You yourself were an example and obviously a model of his designs. Can you talk a little bit more about how you met Rudy and then maybe how that relationship blossomed throughout the 1960s for you to become one of his current girls?

[April Callahan]

I had a great friend who was also model, wonderful model, Ellen Harth. And she was with another agency and she was a great friend of mine. And then she opened up her own agency and she was one of Rudy's girls. And Peggy Moffat was his original and favorite, of course, person. And Ellen was one of his girls as well. And Ellen and I were very friendly. And one day she said to me, and there were things called go sees in those days where you went on a go see to see the designer and your agency would send you out to do it sometime. You got it. Sometimes you didn't. The one thing I want to say before that is you can't have an ego if you were a model in those days because you have to be prepared for people who say, oh, she's awful. Look at her nose, look at her ears, look at her mouth and just work around it. You have to work around it because otherwise you can't take anything personally. Otherwise you're not going to be able to work. But Ellen said, I worked for Rudy Gernreich and he's a wonderful guy and I think he would love you. Would you like to go and meet him. And I said, absolutely, because I knew about him. So I came to see him and then I put on some clothes of his and then I walked. And he said, barbara, I'd love for you to come and be with me. I said, I'd love to come and be with you. And that became not only a relationship of model and designer, but it became a personal relationship. Because when I came to California in the 70s and I met Stanley, the fella and I would call and visit Rudy. And we would go out to lunch and dinner. And he would ask my opinion on what do you think about this and what do you think about that? As he did with, I think, all those girls and with Ellen and certainly with Peggy, who was his definite muser, major person. He. We became friends. So not only did I admire his work, but we became friends, really close friends. And he was a very bright and intelligent man. And he started his life as a dancer. So he knew the fluidity of clothing and how clothes looked on you. Even if he did the no clothes, he knew how it looked. I sent you a picture of the three of us. I think it was Ellen, myself and Peggy, where it says, to talk pulls out of fashion from the New York Times. With our kids hanging out. And I was the one with the hair slicked back, very short on the end. Because we all looked alike. Because Sassoon did our hair. And Wade Bandy, who was a fantastic makeup guy, did our makeup. But the thing that I loved about him and how wonderful he was with me, he said, because all the girls used a lot of makeup and I didn't. And he said, barbara, all these girls use all. But you do whatever you want. And you wear your makeup however you want because it's just fine with me. And I just thought that was so great because he gave us all the permission to be ourselves. And we had all a very great relationship with him. And he understood because he had started as a dancer. And he just knew the body and he knew how to put clothes on it.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And what was it like to wear his clothes? Was it freeing to wear this monokini?

[April Callahan]

No. I mean, I loved it because I'm such an exhibitionist, you know. I mean, it was just great. And we had. There was an exhibition this last winter at the Skirball in California of Rudy. And. And I was. I came out and Ellen, my friend Ellen, unfortunately died. And Peggy was not particularly well. And so I was one of the only people who came to the show and talked about it with the. We all did little interviews that was on and all those samples that I saw that were exhibited there of mine, I would put them on today and wear them in a second because they never lost their style. They always had fluidity, emotion. And mainly they had a dancer's feel and that dancer's feel about moving and stretching and leaping into the air. His clothes exhibited that even when they were monokinis. That little monokini bottom had a lot a life of its own. But talked to you and said, here I am and just take me the way I am. And he had that ability to do that. And that was what was so refreshing and extraordinary about him. Loved him.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And his work is just so relevant today.

[April Callahan]

It is. It says everything about Here we are. We want to be individuals. We're in crisis, but look what we can put on and be comfortable in and be happy in. And he had that ability to project the future, which was quite extraordinary. I love being. And Stanley loved him too. He was so sweet with us when he took us out to dinner in California and he was so delightful. And I was always a health food person. So I was carrying my own muffins. I'm carrying my own cottage cheese. I'm carrying my own food wherever I go. And he just went along with it. He just. We went to. It was a steak place and I wouldn't look at a piece of steak. But he was just. And Stanley loved him and he loved Stanley and he was just a person of great insights and great. And I had great love and admiration for him. He was one of my favorite people and I'm. I wish he was around today because he'd have a lot to say and he'd have a lot to say in his designs. He would be extraordinary. He would be extraordinary today, I think.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Absolutely. And thank you for sharing your relationship and story with him because so many of us admire his work to this very day. But it's nice to get to know a little bit about the man behind the brand.

[April Callahan]

Besides, he was so handsome. Oh yes, Cassidy. He was a very handsome guy. And he had a great partner restaurant. And the rest was not in the fashion business, but he was great. And they had a beautiful house in California. Of course. In great taste. Always in great taste. And what was. When I say great, I just mean individual because he had it. I hope one day you come and visit my apartment. It's wonderful to have the ability or to try to make things your own, whether you're living in something or wearing something, to make it your own and have it your own personality. Because it then shines through and people can see who you are.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Oh, yes. Beautiful sentiment. I think that you can carry beauty on your body and then create beauty around yourself wherever you go.

[April Callahan]

Exactly, yeah.

[Barbara Flood]

With a Venmo debit card, you can Venmo more than just your friends. You can use your balance in so many ways. You can Venmo everything. Need gas? You can Venmo this.

[April Callahan]

How about snacks?

[Barbara Flood]

You can Venmo that. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this or their next show. You can Venmo that. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license, my MasterCard International, Inc. Card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply.

[Cassidy Zachary]

So you talked about your New York Times photograph with Peggy and yourself. The top fells out of fashion and Elliot.

[April Callahan]

Yeah.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And that was 1971. And you yourself were on the way out of fashion because I know this is when you. I think this is the year you first designed costumes for a film for Orson Welles film.

[April Callahan]

If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't an Orson Welles film. It was a Hillary Jacklin film and had in it Orson Welles, myself, Tuesday Weld and Jack Nicholson. And Henry Jagram was the director. And I didn't design the costumes, but I picked the costumes. I picked the costumes for Tuesday to wear, not the guys. But it was really mainly Tuesday. Do you know who Tuesday Weld is? If you don't, I want you to look her up. Because she was in the 70s and 80s. She started at a very young age. One of the most beautiful and one of the most magnificent actors. And we're best friends and we speak every day. She's in California. California. And she looked like Marilyn, but she was tiny. And she did a lot of film. And her name is Tuesday Weld. And the kind of film this was, was placed. It was called A Safe Place. It was a very, I hate to use the term, but avant garde kind of film. It was really crazy. It's crazy because he's a crazy director. Henry. Any rate, I, while I was modeling, I modeled much more after that. But while I was modeling and we did this film, I decided what the character would wear. So it was more not designing, but styling, so to speak. And the reason all of this sort of happened was at that period of time, Henry became a big sort of again, that crazy word of avant garde director and I were together. And so this was the first film he was Doing. He subsequently made 14 films. And I've always been interested in crazy artists. In Stanley, of course, being the least crazy, but definitely crazy of all the diamond people that I knew. But divine by the divine crazy. And Henry was also crazy. But I had the chance to do that other side of it, besides walking down a Runway, but saying, no, this character has this kind of feeling. And so she should be wearing this and this. And so I was able to do that. And it was a lot of fun. And the film actually was at the New York Film Festival and got nominated. We all went for the award ceremonies. It was all very exciting. And then we had a big party at this house afterwards for everybody. And then it was that period of time where, you know, everybody was doing drugs except for me. I was still in my cottage cheese and muffins period, which I stayed in. And we had all these people in the apartment. We had Dennis Hopper and Jack Nicholson and Warren Beatty. And they were all in my bathroom. And I had. Bathroom was closed. I had no idea what was going on. And of course, they were doing drugs in the bathroom. And who knew? I had no idea. A very funny experience. But it was great because it gave me also the ability to say. And that's why I do my business today, because it's. I can look at somebody and say, I think you should give this a shot and wear this and do that, and sometimes. And it works. So it was always a learning. I think you learn each day as you do something and you figure out how to go forward with it. Then you learn.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And so you styled this film. You also had a part in this film. Did this segue you into acting because you were in several different films, including the 1976 film Tracks with Dennis Hopper, which is how you met Stanley.

[April Callahan]

Yeah, exactly. I'd always wanted to be an actor. So when I was in college at Syracuse, I was in the acting department. When I was Columbia, I transferred to Columbia. I was in the acting department. And I was one first. I wanted to be a dancer, and so I was. My mother took me, I think, to Agnes DeMille when I was a little girl. And she said, your daughter can dance, but she has to be very dedicated. I wanted to play outside with the boys. I didn't want to be dedicated, So I always danced, but I never took it as a career. But acting was something I could. I had a feeling for, and I thought, I can do this. And so I studied with Stella Adler and I studied in college and stuff. But the modeling came in at a period of time. And the acting career is fantastic. But you're finished at a very young age. At that period of time especially, you were finished at a very young age. And I thought, acting is wonderful, but will I be able to do. I want to do something that I can do forever. And that. That wasn't it at the time. And so the modeling came in, and I just thought, for as long as this lasts, this is what I really love. And that's. I was interested in all of it. But the modeling fell into place, and here I was. Here I was walking down the Runway, smiling, laughing, when everybody's walking down, very serious. But I had a wonderful. I enjoyed it so much. I enjoy being with people and I enjoy creating, and I enjoy that part of something where you take something and you look at it, you say, maybe we can put this and this and this with it, and then we have something. So it's something that I think you just take on with you, no matter how old you are.

[Cassidy Zachary]

So modeling, then you act, then acting, styling, and then the next chapter in your life was opening your very own boutique, which I believe started out as an antique store.

[April Callahan]

Yes. The thing about this boutique, it's sort of. It's a secret boutique, because I have. It's like a studio in my apartment, and I send things out to people. Because you're really not supposed to have a boutique in your own apartment. When you live on Park Avenue in a fancy building, even if you're not fancy, you have to be careful of what you do. So what I do is use it as. It's like my workspace. And people call on the phone, and if they want something, I just tell them, or I say, I'm going to send you this, that, and the other thing. You'll see how you feel about it. So it started, and I just thought, I'm going to do this and see what happens. And it turned out to be a lot of fun and successful. And people enjoy being able to call up and say, somebody called the other day and said, I need a navy blue cape. I said, I don't have a navy blue cape. I have a black cape. That kind of thing where people call you up and say, do you have. And can you send me. And of course, I send a lot of clothes to dealers for all their shows, and they sell a lot of my things. And it's not only clothing. It's clothing and furniture and pottery and art and Stanley. Art and Stanley's pictures are here for people who need to look at them. Because she's a wonderful painter as from the movie and stuff. And so my house is the kitchen sink. It has everything in it and you just have to draw from which room or which article or which whatever you're going to take and then it works out. So that's what's happened. Iris Apthel is an extraordinary example of a woman, much older, who has an extraordinary eye. I know her quite well, I've been in her apartment. And she. There was a wonderful story. We were at some fashion something where they were having some things for sale. And I was walking around, I think it was the Lighthouse. It was an event for the Lighthouse for the Blind. And I saw this pair of red shoes and I started to. I looked at it and said, I'm going to try those on. And at that moment, a hand filled with bracelets all up there reached out over me and grabbed the shoes. It was Iris, how I met her. It was so funny. And I said. And of course I knew who she was. I said, be my guest, because I was already on it. But that hand with the bracelet slipped out, those shoes, and there they were right in her bag. I think people of all ages can have style and also they can also be individuals and that's the main thing. People should try to find their own individuality. They shouldn't try to copy because it's better to try what you like and see what you like, even if it's wrong. But then you start to learn and. And she definitely is in a class by herself and just absolutely brilliant at what she does. And she had a company called Old World weavers in the 50s, I think, and 60s, and she sold to a lot of decorators for their houses and stuff. And so I think if you had the eye for fashion, you can also have the eye for decorating. Not necessarily cooking, because I don't cook. Stanley cooks. I don't cook. But when I was married, I thought I would cook and I went to Dione Lucas cooking school. She was very French and I thought, I'll learn how to do this. But I was already starting on my health food phase And I said, Ms. Lucas, do I have to cook with butter? And she said, Ms. Floyd, if you can't cook with butter, you can't cook at all. I said, thank you very much. I left the class. But I'm saying that if you have, you can do it. You can do fashion with everything. You can do it with your cooking, you can do it with your cleaning, you can do it with your clothing, you can just make it your own and do things that suit you as a person, rather than copying the next person you know next door to you who you think is perfect. But you could just do your own thing in your own way and it would be just fine.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And you mentioned Iris being in the class all her own. But I have to say that you are as well. You have such an incredible sense of style, and you really do embody the joy and also the art of dressing.

[April Callahan]

And it is a joy. It is a joy, and each day is a joy. It makes me very happy. And it doesn't make Stanley so happy, because if we travel, I'm sending out bags and bags of clothing and he has to check him into the airport and run around. He's not thrilled with that. But lately, of course, we don't have to go anywhere, so it's not particularly a park. But I must say that through this period, I dress, I put on makeup, I exercise every day. It's not like I've gone into, you know, tracksuits. I'm not a tracksuit girl, per se. All the tights and leotards and T shirts with Frida Kahlo on them and one earring hanging down here and there, because it makes me feel good. And I just feel like I'm me wherever I am.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And it also just instills a little bit of spark and joy and happiness in your day.

[April Callahan]

It does. And I tell you what, physically and emotionally, it makes you feel better. It really does. Because through the period of time, for instance, at the beginning of this pandemic, it was three months and you couldn't get your hair colored. So I'm in the bathroom trying to put all this red. My red hair. And you can't do it. I can't. Somebody else has to do it. But so I tell you, it was really. It was an effort. It was definitely effort. And I was so pleased when I could go again and just take care of simple things like that. But it's all part of the trying to be an individual human being and enjoying life and giving to other people and make sure that everybody is correct in their behavior. We're living in a country that is not correct in its behavior at the moment, and it's a tragedy. And I'm hoping that we'll be able to fix it, change it, and get it back to some semblance of reality. We'll see. Remains to be seen.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Barbara, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me today. This was really a treat.

[April Callahan]

Oh, I'm so glad, Cassidy.

[Barbara Flood]

Barbara, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us again today as a fellow New Yorker cast. What a treat to be transported back in time to the 1950s and the 1990s 60s to the New York Garment District because this was like the height of when clothing was being manufactured and made in America or American clothing. So this was obviously quite formative period in her own journey.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Absolutely. And I must say I count the interviews that I did for the Advanced Style episodes among some of my most cherished of the podcast because so many of these individuals have lived such incredible lives. Barbara, of course is no exception. It's really been a gift to get to know her and to get a first person perspective of a period I have spent so much time studying. I can only dream of living in and experiencing 1960s New York, but Barbara was there. And to have had a friendship with Rudy, arguably the most exciting and innovative designer of the 1960s and 70s, is so special, as is Barbara herself. Her philosophy in life and dressing is definitely an inspiration. So thank you Barbara and I think.

[Barbara Flood]

That does it for us today. Dressed listeners, may you consider sharing a Barbara's Joy of Dressing next time you get dressed? Please head to essedpodcast on Instagram or Rest Podcast without the underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And remember, we always love hearing from you, so if you'd like to write to us, you can do [e-mail] DressedHistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses and you can check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.

[Barbara Flood]

We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you are interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop forward/dressed and there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? You can now sign up for Ad free listening with any tier on our Dressed History Patreon where you can also chat with your fellow fashion history lovers and attend one of our live Q and as and so much more.

[Barbara Flood]

We are also excited to now be part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free History subscription Airwave History plus available on Apple Podcasts. The subscription brings dress and also 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for just $5.99 per month we're more information on Patreon and Airwave is available at the link in our bio.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Thank you as always for tuning in and more dressed coming your way very soon. The History of Fashion is a production of dressed media.

[Barbara Flood]

Have you ever wondered how inbred the Habsburgs really were? What women in the past used for birth control? Or what Queen Victoria's nine children got up to? On the History Teatime podcast, I profile remarkable queens and LGBTQ royals, explore royal family trees, and delve into women's medical history and other fascinating topics. Join me every Tuesday for History Tea time wherever fine podcasts are enjoyed. This is Jen and Jenni from Ancient History Fangirl and we're here to tell you about Jenny Scorching historical romantasy based on Alaric of the Visigoth's Enemy of My Dreams. Amanda Boucher, best selling author of the Kingmaker Chronicle, says this book has everything high stakes, action, grit, ferocity and blazing passion. Julia and Alaric are colliding storms against a backdrop of the brutal dangers of ancient Rome. They'll do anything to carve their peace out of this treacherous world and not just survive, but rule. Enemy of My Dreams is available wherever books are sold.