← Dressed: The History of Fashion
Dressed: The History of Fashion
Catherine Dior, an Interview with Justine Picardie, Part I (Dressed Classic)
00:44:15
Loading summary
Transcript60 lines
- [00:00]
April Callahan
Abercrombie denim is everything right now. Denim should feel like this. Confident, easy, like your butt has never looked better. If you didn't know Abercrombie's Curve Love Denim went viral in 2019 for eliminating waist gap and it's still a game changer. Between that and their classic fits with a straighter line from waist to hip, the perfect denim does exist. Shop Abercrombie Denim in the app online and in store.
- [00:29]
State Farm Advertiser
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling, and when it comes to checking off coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you. Whether you prefer talking in person on the phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help finding coverage that best fits your needs. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is.
- [00:51]
Cassidy Zachary
There.
- [00:54]
April Callahan
Please enjoy one of our favorite episodes from the Dressed archive of over 500 plus shows. Dressed will be back with brand new content next week. We're 7 billion people in the world. We all have one thing in common.
- [01:25]
Cassidy Zachary
Every day, we all get dressed.
- [01:26]
April Callahan
Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast where we explore the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts.
- [01:35]
April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary. Well dressed listeners if you listen to this show, and even if you don't. We've all heard of Christian Dior and many of us likely of Ms. Dior. But how many of us have heard of Ms. Kieran Catherine Dior, the inspiration behind the company's famous and first perfume, and the beloved and courageous sister of Christiane? I mean, I knew of her, April, I don't know if you did or not. I've heard of her. I've read things about her, but I had no idea about her legacy and life. And she is a woman who, it turns out, is as equally, if not more, deserving of our admiration and praise. This is a woman who earned a Legion dinner for her work for the French Resistance during during the Nazi occupation.
- [02:21]
Cassidy Zachary
Of France during World War II.
- [02:23]
April Callahan
This is a woman who was captured and survived a year of horrific experiences and abuses at the Nazi women's work camp, Ravensbruck. This is a woman who, despite her experiences, found beauty and purpose in the aftermath of such atrocity and who inspired her brother all who knew her. And now, thanks to today's guest, the.
- [02:43]
World Today, we are joined by international bestselling author Jack Justine Picardy, whose recently published book, Ms. Dior A Story of Courage and Couture tells the incredible story of Two siblings whose lives were intimately interlinked and whose love for each other still beats at the very heart of Christian's namesake brand to this very day. And while this book is not necessarily a biography strictly of Catherine, we are all indebted to Justine for introducing us to Catherine's extraordinary and, until now, largely overlooked life and legacy. Her book is the first comprehensive examination of Katherine's remarkable life, and we are so, so, so, so, so pleased to welcome her to the show.
- [03:28]
Cassidy Zachary
Justine, welcome to Dressed. This is such a pleasure to be speaking with you today.
- [03:32]
Justine Picardy
It's so lovely to be talking to you. I'm a big fan of the podcast.
- [03:36]
Cassidy Zachary
Oh, thank you so much. Right back at you. We're huge fans of your work, and I've read so many of your books, and Now I've read Ms. Dior. I can't tell you how quickly I read it. I read it in, I think, two or three days. I could not put it down. It's an incredible book. And you reveal in your introduction that this is not the book that you originally intended to write, but you write that a ghost quote walked into my life on a sunlit Sunday morning in early summer and would not let go of me, however much I might wish at times to be free of her. Her name is Catherine Dior. Please tell us about the inspiration behind writing this wonderful book.
- [04:13]
Justine Picardy
Well, my last book was a biography of Coco Chanel. And after that was published, I received an invitation from Dior to see if I'd like to look in the Dior archives, perhaps with a view to doing a biography of Christiane Dior, following on from my Chanel biography. And interestingly, when I looked in the archives, I was really struck by the beauty of the artifacts, the couture gowns, Christian Dior's beautiful sketches and drawings. But what I felt was that it would make an amazing exhibition. And actually, I was responsible for the first meeting between Dior and the va The Victoria and Albert Museum, which ultimately led to the Dior Designer of Dreams exhibition that took place in London. But I couldn't really feel my way into the book at that point. And I was also the editor in chief of Harper's Bazaar in the uk. But every time I went back to Paris, I would look in the Dior archives. But I really didn't know anything about Christiane Dior's sister Catherine at all. Very little about her in the archives. Nobody really ever talked about her. And then on that sunlit Sunday morning, which I referred to, I was sitting in the garden at La Condnoir, which was Christian Dior's home in Provence. And one of the archivists, one of the Dior archivists was there, and he started talking to me about Catherine Dior, Christiane's younger sister, and how they'd lived together very nearby from the 1930s onwards in a little farmhouse near La Cornois. And this is where they'd grown roses and where Catherine had grown roses. And then he said, and Catherine was in the French Resistance and she was deported to a concentration camp. And it literally, at that moment, I, as I write, I just felt possessed by, why was this a secret? You know, why had this woman never been written about? Why was it that Christian, who becomes one of the most famous men in the world, not just one of the most famous fashion designers in the world, famous people in the world. Why does his story or history. Why has her story been obliterated? And what does that mean? And that was the seed of the book which took me to a lot of different gardens. Actually, it is relevant that the book that my odyssey in search of Catherine took me to so many different gardens. But, you know, the book is not a biography of Catherine Dior. It's sometimes been described as that, and that would be misleading. It is a book about a relationship between Christiane and Catherine Dior, about the relationship between these two siblings who were incredibly close to one another. But it's also about the idea of Ms. Dior, this idealized woman, this heightened vision of femininity which emerges. Who emerges in the aftermath of the ugliness of the Second World War. And Ms. Dior is famously a perfume, Christian Dior's first perfume, named as a tribute to his sister Catherine. But it's also the name of an exquisitely beautiful couture dress.
- [07:54]
Cassidy Zachary
Such a beautiful gown.
- [07:56]
Justine Picardy
Yeah. Which also emerges after the trauma of the Second World War. So it's as much about the. That version of Ms. Dior as it is about Christiane and Catherine. And that's the stories that I try to tell in the book.
- [08:15]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And I think you do a really wonderful job of humanizing Dior, Christiane specifically, in a way that we've really never seen him before, because we're so familiar with the fashion narrative of the post World war nude look and his tragic death 10 years later. But to learn about these earlier years is just so wonderful. And then, of course, his career connection with his dear sister. So you mentioned this a little bit, but why do you think that her story has largely been forgotten? Because this is the first comprehensive examination of her life and really their relationship as well.
- [08:49]
Justine Picardy
Yeah, well, I think that because Catherine was in the French Resistance and very few people were in France, when she joined the French Resistance at the end of 1941, there were only hundred thousand active members of the French Resistance in France, out of a population of 40 million after the invasion of France by the Germans, and even at the height of the Resistance. So the summer of 1944, after the Allies had made their D Day landings in Normandy in July 1944, when Catherine was betrayed by a French collaborator, arrested, tortured by the Gestapo, and then deported to Ravensbruck concentration camp on the last train out of Paris of deportees, even at that high point of Resistance, there were only 400,000 active members of the French Resistance, so 1% of the population. So I think that because the shame and humiliation of collaboration and occupation in France and the complicity of some French people with the Nazi regime, I think left a legacy of such shame and trauma that a kind of silence fell over the stories of women like Catherine. And as I say, I mean, when Catherine was deported, the train left Paris on just nearly midnight on the 15th of August, and Paris was liberated just 10 days later. So she was so close to being saved. Christiane did so much to try and save her.
- [10:44]
Cassidy Zachary
It's so heartbreaking.
- [10:46]
Justine Picardy
But she was one of 400 women and 2,000 men just on that train alone who were deported. The men were sent to Buchenwald concentration camp, the women to Ravensbruck. And of course, many of them died and didn't return. But of the few who returned, they were sort of living evidence of France's betrayal of French resistance, like Catherine. And I think that Charles de Gaulle, General de Gaulle, who Catherine was a great supporter of, the leader of the Free French. When he is at the liberation of Paris in August 44, just 10 days after Catherine's deportation, he makes that famous unifying speech where he says, you know, France la vray France, the true France, eternal France. France was martyred, but France was liberated, liberated by the whole of France. So you see, he makes this very clear and intentional decision to say that France has liberated itself and the whole of France is on the same side. So France has to be unified after the divisions of the occupation. And when people like Catherine return, you know, their heads shaved, emaciated, and the visible evidence of their trauma and suffering, it's too unbearable. And it's a terrible reminder of what the country has tried to forget. And so it becomes literally impossible for those stories to be widely told.
- [12:34]
Cassidy Zachary
I think right until now until this wonderful book.
- [12:38]
Justine Picardy
Until now. And what's really interesting is that my book has been translated into French and was published in October in France. And I was worried about the reaction in France because, you know, there's been a real taboo in talking about this in France. A taboo combined with a kind of collective forgetting. And yet the book has done really well in France. It's had a very warm critical reception in terms of reviews. But it's also now been reprinted, I think four or five times just in, you know, since October. And people in France now seem to want to read about this part of their history. But what some of the reviews have said is it's really interesting that it took a, a British writer to be able to tell this story, you know, and now it's good that the story is there. So I think perhaps the timing was right too, that maybe a younger generation was able to look at and share and explore the story of Catherine. But also look at why it's so centrally important to what becomes known as the new look. Because as you know, I think that all too often fashion, the history of fashion, is marginalized from mainstream history.
- [14:12]
Hormone Harmony Advertiser
Feeling a little off in sleep, mood, irritability or even intimacy. Well, it might be menopause or perimenopause. And we might, just might have a solution for you. Hormone Harmony. Hormone Harmony contains science based on herbal extracts called adaptogens. And here's the beauty of adaptogens. They help the body adapt to stressors like chaotic hormonal changes that happen naturally throughout every woman's life.
- [14:40]
April Callahan
Hormone Harmony is a powerful herbal formula that combines 12 powerful adaptogens into one single capsule. Each of these ingredients is carefully selected based on scientific evidence and has proven quite effective in clinical studies for women of various ages and hormones profiles.
- [14:56]
Hormone Harmony Advertiser
There are no GMOs, artificial fillers or flavors or any other junk in Hormone Harmony. Only science backed ingredients and amounts that are clinically proven. And with 50,000 and counting, rave reviews from women all over the world who are experiencing better sleep and energy levels as well as improved moods. What are you waiting for?
- [15:19]
April Callahan
And for a limited time you can get 15% off your entire first order@happymammoth.com just use the code dressed at checkout. That's 15% off your entire first order with the code DREST@happymammoth.Com Eczema isn't always.
- [15:33]
State Farm Advertiser
Obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from Ebgliss. After an initial dosing phase, about 4 in 10 people taking EPGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks, and most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.
- [15:50]
Ebglis Advertiser
Ebbs Eglis Lebricizumab LBKZ, a 250mg injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals, or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you are allergic to Epglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have New Orleans worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Ebglis. Before starting Epglis. Tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection searching for real relief.
- [16:24]
State Farm Advertiser
Ask your doctor about eglis and visit epglis.lily.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979.
- [16:35]
Justine Picardy
History Literally his story is in the mainstream, is often about presidents and politicians and generals and. And wars. And yet fashion is seen as. I mean, if it's even recognized, it's certainly not given its due place, its important place in mainstream history. And I think that there's all kinds of reasons as to why that might be the case, that it's seen as perhaps trivial or female or there's a kind of there is still a marginalization of it, even though we see wonderful exhibitions, including of the Dior exhibition in museums. You still don't often read about fashion if you're reading about the first or Second World War, for example. But I also think that sometimes fashion marginalizes the wider political events of the day in examining its own history. So too often fashion examines itself and looks at itself in isolation. Whereas for me, having written a biography of Coco Chanel and then a book about Dior, you know, I can see so clearly, and I think so intriguingly, how if you look at Coco Chanel, you know, her great inventions, the little black dress and Chanel no. 5, which emerged Chanel no. 5 in 1921, 100 years ago, and the little black dress again in the early twenties, emerge after the horror and trauma of the First World War and then the first global flu pandemic. And literally in this period, this is where Chanel Loses the great love of her life. Boy Capel, who dies, survives the First World War, but as a soldier, but then dies in 1919. One of her sister dies during the global flu pandemic. And then she turns the color of as morning black into a symbol of sort of freedom and independence in the Roaring Twenties and the Jazz Age. And Chanel number five becomes associated with modernism and modernity. And then similarly, you see Dior, you know, these two great titans of 20th century fashion. Dior emerges after the trauma and horror of the Second World War, and he emerges with Ms. Dior, the perfume and the collection, his first collection, which becomes known as the New Look. But in fact, he christened La Corole, and he says it's for a flower woman. And we all know the traditional narrative of what the New look represents. But what is ignored is that the flower woman is in fact his younger sister, Catherine, who's literally been growing the roses that had then become the primary ingredients in Miss Dior. The perfume is named for her. But also, at the time that he starts conceiving of this first perfume and his first collection, she's actually living with him in Paris, as she did both before and during the war. And she is a real flower woman. When she returns from Germany, she's given a license to deal in cut flowers, and she becomes a florist. And she's living with Christiane in his apartment in Rue Royale, and she's getting up at 4 o' clock every morning to go to the flower market. And again, anybody that knows and loves the mythology of Dior knows that Christiane loves flowers. And he uses Lily of the Valley becomes a talisman in his designs. And he sews a sprig of lily of the Valley into his couture gowns. But Catherine is literally going to the flower market, you know, buying Lily of the valley. And on May 1, she's exporting Lily of the Valley, you know, throughout the world to French people. So there is a real practical flower woman living with Christian as he conceives his first and subsequent collections. And yet the fashion chooses to ignore that, too.
- [20:59]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's so many wonderful insights into your book that I think people are just gonna find fascinating and profound, quite frankly, because this is just not the typical narrative that you hear of when you. You hear the name Christian Dior. And I think, it's quite frankly, gonna change that narrative moving forward in really wonderful ways. So thank you so much. I do wanna hear more about Catherine's life in the Resistance and their early Years in Paris, for instance. But first, I just have to say this book is extraordinary in so many ways. And it's made all the more extraordinary by the fact that it's illustrated. It's so beautifully illustrated. Throughout, you have photographs, illustrations, drawing, and then various items from the duo archives, for instance, which you were given unprecedented access. Not only did you visit the archives, but you stayed in Dior and Catherine's house. And there's even a point in the book where you describe writing the book at Christiane's desk, which I think I just kind of stopped and tried to imagine what that must have been like for you. So can you tell us a little bit about the intimate journey you took into the Dior lives and Archives? What was this experience like for you?
- [22:09]
Justine Picardy
Well, as a writer, I always feel kind of compelled to go to the places where. Where the people that I'm writing about have lived and loved and wept, and that the spirit of the people I'm writing about can be evoked through the spirit of these places. So that's just part of. Well, it's a. It's a really integral part of how I write and how I research. So I wanted to go to all these different places where Christiane and Catherine had lived and worked. And the first one that I went to was the Dior archives. But I also then went back to their home, their childhood home in Granville, which is now a Christian Dior museum, thanks to Catherine. She was honorary president of the Christiane Dior museum from the 1990s until her death in 2008. But when they lived there, it was a sort of large family home on the clifftops on the coast of Normandy, overlooking the English Channel. And in this very unlikely clifftop position, because it's built on granite, there is the most magical garden that was created there by their mother, Madeleine Dior, who was a passionate gardener and who Christiane and Catherine inherited their love of gardening from. And she was rather a remote mother, as was, I suppose, the norm in that prosperous French bourgeoisie in that time. But I think they both found that perhaps the way to her heart was through perhaps what was closest to her heart, which was flowers in the garden. And when I went there, which I did on a number of occasions, but on one of the occasions, I was given permission to write in what had been the children's playroom, which is at the end of the garden. And what struck me about this place is, you would think it sounds sort of idyllic and fairy tale, and it is very beautiful. But even in June When I went there, there was a kind of movie, mist rolling in from the sea. And it's right next to the cemetery where their mother is in fact, buried. She died of septicemia when Catherine was just 13. And there is a kind of haunting sense to this place which Christian himself describes in his own memoir, Christian Dior et Moi. There's so many wonderful clues in Christian Dior's own writing about himself, which is why I quote it in my book. But why everywhere I went, I took Christiane's memoir with me. And he said, you know, he uses the word haunting about this garden and says that it became such an important. It's very emblematic of his life. So he tells us at the very start that this rather strange place that is a place both of beauty but of ghosts, is something that kind of shapes his life. And I also think it clearly shapes Catherine's life. Her memories of the garden were what has allowed the gardens to have been restored to today, with the maze and the roses. But interestingly, neither Christian nor Catherine chose to go and live there again. You know, they made their own homes in Provence and Paris. So it's kind of a place they needed to escape from as well as remember. And then the next place that becomes very important for them both is. So after their mother's death, their father lost all his money. He was bankrupted in the aftermath of the Wall street crash. And one brother, who was suffering from shell shock, or what we would call PTSD after the First World War, becomes very estranged from the rest of the family. And the other brother, Bernard, develops schizophrenia and is institutionalized, and they never see him ever again. So Christiane and Catherine become this very close pair, even though there's 12 years between them. Christiane's 12 years older than Catherine, and both of them live together in this little farmhouse that their father bought in the hills of Provence, in a very remote part of Provence called Les Nais. And it's surrounded by rose meadows. It's in the rose growing area of Provence. And Christian teaches himself to draw there because he has his own business, which was an art gallery, has gone bankrupt. In fact, not one, but two art galleries in the aftermath of the Wall street crash. And as soon as he is able to and starts making a living from drawing fashion illustrations, he goes to live in Paris and Catherine goes to live there with him. And after all this disruption and. And loss and trauma, nevertheless, they share this very happy period of their life together. Living in Paris in the late 1930s, both making a living in the fashion Industry. And Catherine works in what was called a maison de mode. Christiane found her a job selling accessories. But she also becomes his first model for his early designs, long before he's famous as Christian Dior. And there's some pictures I found in the Dior archives of Catherine as a young woman. So being in the archives, looking at these pictures, and the archives are in the house of Dior in Paris. So that is a way to really feel a sense of them. But as you say, I was also given an opportunity to write at Christiane's own desk at 30 Avenue Montaigne. And on his desk there are pictures, photographs of Catherine, of their mother. And I think by writing at his desk and looking at these pictures as I wrote at his desk, I was able to kind of have an imaginative sense of how this really challenging childhood brought him and his younger sister so close together, but also shaped his aesthetic. And then I also was able to go to his first apartment in Paris, where Catherine also lived with him on Rue Royale. And this was a rented apartment that he started renting before the Second World War. And it's an extraordinary place. I mean, to be able to go to this apartment, which was owned by or rented by a friend of a friend of a friend. That was why I was able to go there again. I'm always interested in being in the places where you feel the sort of veil between the past and the present becomes more translucent. And when the veil between the living and the dead again becomes more translucent. And in all these places I've described, from. From Granville to the little farmhouse in Provence, where I also went to Christian Dior's desk in his couture house, to the archives, I felt that I was sort of writing my way closer to them. And Margaret Atwood, who's a writer I love, says she wrote that all writing is negotiating with the dead. And that really rings true for me. There is this sense that you are asking permission of the dead, who nevertheless feel so alive in these places. Permission, their permission to tell their stories. And I truly felt that in these places. But I suppose these were all places of beauty. And Christian Dior's own home in the south of France, La Cond Noir, is a very beautiful place and a very beautiful garden, as is Catherine's home, Les Nais, which was nearby and which she inherited from her father after his death.
- [31:18]
Lowes Advertiser
Lowes knows that no matter your paint project, saving is at the top of your list. That's why when you shop today, you can buy one, get one free, Select Valspar and HGTV Home by Sherwin Williams one Coat coverage Interior paints via rebate. Shop these deals in store or online today at Lowes. We help you save. Selection varies by location while supplies last. Discount taken at time of purchase. See Sales Associate for details. Offer valid 82193 more rewards more savings.
- [31:50]
Ebglis Advertiser
With American Express Business Gold. Earn up to $395 back in annual statement credits on eligible purchases at select shipping, food delivery and retail subscription. Merchants enjoy the benefits of membership with the Amex Business Gold Card. Terms apply. Learn more@americanexpress.com Business Gold AmEx Business Gold Card Built for business by American Express.
- [32:20]
Justine Picardy
But the really, truly dark place that I felt very frightened of going to was Ravensbruck. Yeah, but I had to go there to be able to write about Catherine and Ravensbrook I hadn't even heard of before I started researching this book. Yeah, and you know, people of the concentration camps there are the famous ones where we know their names, like Auschwitz, Belsen, Buchenwald, that are Auschwitz in particular is a place of pilgrimage. But very few people go to Ravensbruck. But nevertheless, I had to go there. There are archives there. So I went there somewhat reluctantly, and I went twice. And the first time I went was in the winter, and it's 80 miles north of Berlin, and it's a really, really cold place. There's a sort of freezing northerly wind and the ground was frozen. And it is a terrible place. And I was the only person there when I went there, other than the archivists who work there. It has very few visitors. But much to my surprise, there is also the most unexpected reminders of human resilience and symbols of resistance in the camp. And I included some of these pictures in the book because I want the reader to come with me on all these journeys, both to Granville, to the Dior archives, to the Dior's homes in the south of France. And I also wanted the reader to feel able to come with me to Ravensbruck and for you to know that, you know, I am your companion on this journey, because reading a book is itself a journey which in this book involves going to Ravensbruck. And that is a place that readers may feel uncertain about going to. But I also wanted the women who had been prisoners there to keep their dignity. So I didn't want to use any kind of horrific images in the book. And so what I found in the archives is what appears as illustrations in these chapters, which are the most beautiful talismans and mementos and symbols of resistance made in secret by the women There. And many of them are very beautiful. So there's a tiny little cherry stone that is carved. Was secretly carved into the shape of a handbag with a heart on it. And given. Made in secret, and given in secret as a talisman and a symbol of friendship and hope and resilience. And then a tiny little embroidered heart, again given in friendship and sisterliness. And there are. The roses become symbols of resistance there. So tiny little drawings of roses. And also the most beautiful little drawings made by some of the women themselves, including a member of the French Resistance who drew her friends who'd also been in the French Resistance with her and then were prisoners alongside her. And she drew them without their faces. Their faces are blank, which reminds me of some fashion illustrations by, for example, Cocteau or Christian Barade often left faces blank in their fashion illustrations. But nevertheless, these figures are so filled with love and tenderness in these drawings that were made at Ravensbruck. And the French woman drew her friends because, of course, there were no mirrors for them to see themselves but as they once were, rather than as they truly looked. So all their heads had been shaved, but she gave them their hair, and they were wearing the uniforms, you know, those sort of striped pajamas. But rather than making them look emaciated in her drawings, she. She gave them their figures back. And her reason to do that, she later said, was to remind them that they were still women, to keep their sense of morale and part of the Nazi dehumanizing regime was to take away. To strip away the vestiges of humanity. But all these ways, all these drawings, these tiny little talismans made in secret, are ways of showing that beauty is part of one's humanity. And that, to me, seemed so important. And it is also what links Catherine with Dior and her experience. And she returns to the idea of beauty by growing roses after the Second World War, to believe in gardening, to plant roses to. To 10 roses that are such beautiful plants and have such a beautiful scent, which is used for her brother's perfume, is a sign of hope in the future. You know, you do not grow a rose without believing in the future. And for these women to create beauty is as radical as an act of resistance, really. As for Christian. To create beauty in the aftermath of such an ugly war, and to my astonishment. And Ravensbruck is a large site because it covered a lot of grounds as a concentration camp. I found the most unexpected and beautiful part of this terrible place, which is a rose garden which was planted on the site of a mass grave. And it was planted by Women who'd survived Raven's book and returned there after the war to plant roses in memory of their friends, their sisters, their mothers, their daughters. And there's a rose that was bred by another French woman, a member of the Resistance, to survive the harshest winter. And when I first went in the winter, this rose, these roses had blooms on them even though the ground was frozen. And the rose is called resurrection. And it is a symbol of renewal, but it's also a living sign of renewal. And it's such a powerful place. It's such a powerful, miraculous place. And I. I wanted people that were prepared to come with me on this journey of reading the book to find these roses with me. And I also. I felt so passionately that you can only understand Christian's extraordinary, you know, radicalism in creating beauty after his own sister had suffered so terribly, having been, first of all, arrested by the. Betrayed by French collaborators, arrested by the Gestapo, tortured by the French Gestapo, imprisoned in France, deported, forced to work as a slave laborer. All these terrible things which happened to Catherine, and yet she returns to Christian, and he creates something beautiful for her. Yeah, the beautiful perfume and the beautiful Miss Dior dress.
- [40:38]
Cassidy Zachary
One of my favorite interviews on the show is with Tony Vacado, who is. She's like, 96 or 97 years old. Survived Covid, but he was a combat photographer during World War II, and he came back from the war and he became a fashion photographer because he wanted to find beauty. He had to find the beauty again after that devastation and the horrors that he witnessed. And this is one of the most profound and powerful parts of your book. Absolutely, is finding this humanity and this beauty that is able to grow and thrive after these horrific experiences that these women went through. And it makes me cry just thinking about it. Yeah.
- [41:20]
Justine Picardy
And that beauty can be such an important act of resistance against an ugly regime. And that. That, to me, when I discovered this through writing this book, that it's a really important part of being human. It's part of our humanity. And that, too often, it's divorced. You know, we see beauty as being separate. I mean, there's the, you know, John Keats, beauty is truth, truth beauty. And that has been quoted so often that it almost has lost its meaning. It becomes kind of banal. And, of course, not all beauty is truth, and not all beauty is an act of resistance, but when it is, it is all the more beautiful. And I think that we see that in what Christian Dior does, and that's why there's something so powerful about that and it's why Dior becomes the most famous couturier and designer after the war. There is a reason for that dress.
- [42:32]
April Callahan
Listeners, if you like April and I are absolutely enthralled by Catherine's life. You are not going to want to miss Thursday's episode where Justine will tell us more about her work for the Resistance. And of course, you don't have to wait until Thursday to order your very own copy of Ms. Dior from your favorite local bookstore or even your library. Remember, you can do interlibrary loans and request it if your library doesn't have it. And actually, a good companion piece to this week's episode is our interview with Florence Mueller, one of the world's foremost Dior experts and the textile art and fashion curator at the Denver Museum of.
- [43:05]
Art that does it for us this week. Dressed Listeners in our own uncertain times. May you consider beauty as an act of resistance. Next time you get dressed.
- [43:19]
Justine Picardy
Please head.
- [43:19]
Hormone Harmony Advertiser
To restpodcast on Instagram or REST Podcast without the underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.
- [43:30]
April Callahan
And remember, remember, we always love hearing from you, so if you'd like to write to us, you can do so@hellorusthistory.com DressedHistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And you can check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.
- [43:48]
Hormone Harmony Advertiser
We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you are interested you can always find a link in our store Show Notes to our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop dress and there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles and.
- [44:10]
April Callahan
Do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? You can now sign up for ad free listening with any tier on our Dressed History Patreon where you can also chat with your fellow fashion history lovers and attend one of our live keys, Q&As and so much more.
- [44:23]
Hormone Harmony Advertiser
We are also excited to now be part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free history subscription Airwave History plus available on Apple Podcasts. The subscription brings dress and also 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for just $5.99 per month. More information on Patreon and Airwave is available at the link in our bio.
- [44:47]
April Callahan
Thank you as always for tuning in and more dressed coming your way very soon. The History of Fashion is a production of dressed media.
- [44:59]
Indeed Advertiser
You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites with Indeed sponsored Jobs. Your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Don't wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com just go to indeed.comarts right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.
- [45:54]
Dan Souza
Hey everyone, it's Dan Souza from America's Test Kitchen. I'm super excited to let you all know that we're launching a new video podcast that takes you behind the scenes into the messy, imperfect but riveting day to day life right here in our Test kitchen. Not only do I get to talk to my colleagues about the latest taste.
- [46:10]
Justine Picardy
Test they attended, I just came from a tasting of salted caramel apple pie.
- [46:14]
Cassidy Zachary
Bars and then roasted garlic.
- [46:16]
Justine Picardy
So I apologize.
- [46:17]
Dan Souza
Or about a recipe they're developing.
- [46:19]
Justine Picardy
The thing about this recipe is it's a secret.
- [46:21]
Indeed Advertiser
The restaurateur refuses to tell people what.
- [46:23]
Ebglis Advertiser
Her secret ingredients are.
- [46:25]
Dan Souza
We also chat with amazing guests from the culinary world and beyond. The lamest joke I've ever said, I said to Marie Manver.
- [46:31]
Justine Picardy
Great.
- [46:32]
Indeed Advertiser
Definitely work.
- [46:33]
Justine Picardy
Great jokes. Thanks.
- [46:34]
Dan Souza
Make sure to subscribe to in the Test Kitchen so you don't miss an episode. You can watch in the Test Kitchen on YouTube and Spotify and listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. Can't wait to see you in the Test Kitchen.