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Dressed: The History of Fashion
Dressing to Undress: an interview with Dita von Teese, part I (Dressed Classic)
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- [00:01]
April Callahan
This episode is brought to you by Prime Obsession is in session. And this summer, prime originals have everything you want. Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice off campus. Elle every year. After the love Hypothesis, Sterling Point and more, slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime
- [00:31]
Dita Von Teese
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- [00:45]
Cassie Zachary
Fresh cuisine that feels rooted in the land.
- [00:49]
Dita Von Teese
Come experience the kind of stillness that stays with you long after you leave. Plan your Scottish escape today@expedia.com VisitScotland please
- [01:01]
Cassie Zachary
enjoy one of our favorite episodes from the Dressed archive of over 500 plus shows.
- [01:06]
April Callahan
The history of fashion is a production of dress media. With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.
- [01:21]
Cassie Zachary
Welcome to Dressed the history of fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are friends, fashion historians and your
- [01:29]
April Callahan
hosts, kids Cassie Zachary and April Callahan. Well, well, welcome back, dress listener. And I say welcome back because it's been a couple of months since we have been here in real life, recording in the studio. We were taking a break, of course, from making new content during our annual winter hiatus. So during that time span, we have been re airing some of our favorite episodes from the dressed closet of past shows. But today is our first brand new episode of season seven of Dressed, which
- [02:04]
Cassie Zachary
every time we talk about it, April, I am just in awe of us. I'm not gonna lie. I'm like, wow, we have been doing this for six, like six seasons, right? We have six seasons, 450 plus episodes, dress listeners. And some of you are new to the show. We always get people saying they're new and it's like, oh, you have a lot to catch up on, but have fun. And we actually reached a really big milestone this last year because we had 20 million downloads of the show.
- [02:31]
April Callahan
That's amazing. I didn't even know that. So thank you for blowing my mind just now.
- [02:37]
Cassie Zachary
And dress listeners, thank you really, from the bottom of our hearts because we could not do this show without you. And it's because of you that this show is a success and because of you that April and I get to do what we love. So thank you, thank you, thank you.
- [02:49]
April Callahan
Yes, for sure.
- [02:50]
Cassie Zachary
And we are also exceptionally excited to not only launch our new season today, but I'm sure many of you may be aware that this year is what we are calling so Much more in 2024, I couldn't help myself. I know we have so much up our sleeves this year, starting with the fact that we have officially launched Dress the School of Fashion with our very first online courses.
- [03:16]
April Callahan
Yes, Cass, part one of your first class, what Women Wore to the A Hundred Plus Years of Transformative Fashion, is currently in session and that just started a few weeks ago in January. And registration is now open for my class, which is going to be a series of classes called the Great Designers. And you can learn more about that on dressedhistory.com so check it out.
- [03:41]
Cassie Zachary
Yes, yes, yes. We are so excited for what 2024 has in store, and that includes launching season seven with you all today. With today's very special guest, the one, the only, Dita Von Teese joins us all this week to chat about her love affair with vintage style both on and off the stage. April, to say that Dita has shaped popular culture today is a bit of an understatement. I mean, most of our listeners will probably be familiar with her work as a burlesque performer, and she is rightfully lauded as one of the people responsible for reviving and modernizing the public's interest in the art of the striptease.
- [04:21]
April Callahan
Exactly. And the neo burlesque scene as we know and love it today actually has its origins in the early 1990s. And Dita was right there, part of this very specific moment when kind of this rockabilly swing dancing scene was emerging. It was becoming very, very popular and lots of people were having a bit of awakening about wearing vintage clothing. So we're going to talk more about this in this episode. But I just want to say that in so many ways, Dita's creative output of the 1990s and the early 2000s really helped shape the future of fashion. So, you know, not only was she part of a subculture that embraced wearing vintage, especially clothing from the 1940s and the 1950s, she was also making really beautiful, super classy erotica, where she was the embodiment of the golden age of Hollywood glamour. And at the same time, the popularity of her work as a fetish model truly brought corsetry back into the mainstream imagination.
- [05:22]
Cassie Zachary
Yeah, and in so many ways, Dita's work has brought vintage style into popular visual culture. And in doing so, she inspired an entirely new generation of historical costumers and cosplayers to become sartorial time travelers themselves,
- [05:35]
April Callahan
or maybe even burlesque dancers. I'm actually only a couple years younger than Dita. And I started taking burlesque classes when I was in my 30s. And it was largely because of her work. And I found her work really magical because it's this blend of being entirely feminine and exceptionally powerful at the same time. So today we get to cross off one of my bucket list dream guests with the amazing Dita Von Teese. Dita, thank you so much for being here. It goes without saying that Cass and I are both huge fans and I have actually been following your career since the Andrew Blake days in the late 1990s. Dress listeners, if you know, you know, wink.
- [06:19]
Dita Von Teese
Those are the olden days, right? Yeah.
- [06:22]
April Callahan
I was actually trying to remember because I've seen you perform a few times and I think the very first time I saw you perform, I think it was insane south beach at like a party for Art Basel Miami. And it might have been in like even at the the earliest one in 2002. I don't know, I could have the date wrong there, but it was supremely magical. It was the epitome of glamour. And of course your costumes, as always, were flawless.
- [06:45]
Dita Von Teese
Was I riding a mechanical bull over stage? Put over a swimming pool?
- [06:50]
April Callahan
You were actually. And was it at the Raleigh perhaps?
- [06:54]
Dita Von Teese
I don't think it was the Raleigh, but it was like the hot hotel that is gone now, I think.
- [06:58]
Cassie Zachary
Yeah. So, Dita, you are the walking embodiment of glamour in so many ways on and off the stage. And correct me if I'm wrong, but you wear mainly vintage or vintage inspired in your personal day to day life. And you are your own hair and makeup artist, which is incredible. So for your own photo shoots, stage performances, red carpet, which I feel like is just so rare for celebrities these days. Can you talk a little bit about that?
- [07:25]
Dita Von Teese
Yeah. I've always been self styled. I'm a dishwater blonde from a farming town in Michigan and I just kind of decided I wanted to emulate classic movie goddesses. And you know, I thought, oh, I can, I can learn how to do that. So this is like pre Internet, pre beauty tutorials and TikTok. So I kind of just had to like learn how to do it for myself. So I wrote, I wrote a big 400 page book about how I taught myself to do glam. And of course, like I've worked with my favorite makeup artists and hair people that I work with because, like, I can't do it all all the time. Like I'll do, I'll do my makeup while somebody does my hair or I'll do my hair and somebody else do my makeup. It just depends. Because for my lingerie shoots, for instance, sometimes my favorites aren't available, so I'll do it myself. Or like, I'm styling the shoot too. I'm managing the location. And so there's like a lot of things. And everyone's. While I'm like, it'd be great to have something else do my hair today. But also somebody else is always these people or no people, you know, I'm very sorry. Um, yeah, just always believed in DIY glam on every level. And yeah, it's just part of who I am. I enjoy it.
- [08:35]
April Callahan
Well, you've raised it to an art form. Just saying.
- [08:39]
Dita Von Teese
Thank you.
- [08:39]
Cassie Zachary
But I also love too, because that was standard practice for showgirls from like the 19th century, 20th century, who are their own glam squads too, but also their own wardrobe stylist. So in some ways you're carrying on that traditional.
- [08:53]
Dita Von Teese
I'm a big audio book fan and like, I'm listening to Barbra Streisander. She did all her own hair and makeup. She was still also self styled. She did all her own makeup for Funny Girl. She wore a lot of wigs, obviously, so she didn't do those. So did Marlena Dietrich, famously, like. So I, I just, I've always been fascinated by that. And, you know, I do believe that if you, you know, have the desire to learn it, you can learn your face and do your face better than, as good as, if not better than any world class makeup artist. And that's not a detriment to the. I'm not trying to put down makeup artists. I just don't think you have to be convinced that you can't learn how to do yourself. It's not always easy, but you can.
- [09:36]
Cassie Zachary
And we're so excited to talk to you about your incredible burlesque career. Of course, all those fabulous costumes. But first, I kind of just want to go back a little bit. You mentioned being a Midwestern girl, and then I'm quoting your website here, the bio, who transformed herself into a glamour girl like those she admired. So can you tell us a little bit about who inspired you growing up? Maybe how you knew you wanted to become a performer in the first place?
- [10:05]
Dita Von Teese
I was always inspired by, like, movie stars. My very favorite was Betty Grable because I love that era, that 1940s Technicolor musical. And Carmen Miranda was in a lot of those movies too. But that era of film was like, and still is my favorite aesthetically and as far as the fashion in it. So Yeah, I just. I love that. I was, like, completely obsessed with that. So Betty Grable was one of my favorites because I liked her because she was the pinup girl. Song and dance girl was in these frothy, beautiful Technicolor films. And so, you know, she was definitely favorite. Even though I'm not blonde, I'm not, like, trying to emulate Betty Grable. To me, it was about capturing the spirit of those that I admire instead of actually trying to become those people. I don't think I ever had this, oh, I'm going to be a performer thing ever. In fact, it took a long time before I was like, oh, I think this might be a legit career at this point, you know, 20 years later or whatever, you know. So I kind of started in 1990. I came out of high school. I was go go dancing in the LA rave scene and hanging out with the club kids and drag queens. And then I was pretty well known in the pinup and fetish world as being like the modern Bettie page. Like recreating vintage bondage photos, but always style vintage. And performing my first burlesque shows in the early 90s. And it was like, very much like just something I did for fun while keeping another job. I worked in a lingerie store, and then I worked in the beauty department at a department store. So I had all these other jobs. And it wasn't really, I think, until, I know, it was just like one thing led to another. I was headlining strip clubs like the Gentlemen Gentlemen's clubs, because I was doing burlesque shows. And I was famous for being in these, you know, pinup magazines and kind of a lot of slow evolution. And I don't think it was really until I'd say, like, around 2002. I got a lot of mainstream jobs, like performing for fashion brands in Paris. And, you know, I had a big moment where everything kind of shifted and people knew me in the mainstream world. So. But, yeah, that was like. It was a long time coming. It was like an overnight thing. And I don't think I ever came to terms with being a performer for a long time because I was just like, oh, I'm just like, you know, doing this pinup thing and this burlesque thing. And I was like a workhorse kind of to say, like, I was just. I'm just gonna go. I have this job, that job. I had all these jobs. I had the first pinup girl website ever on the Internet. So I used to sell my little signed photos that you could get by check in the mail. You know, just all of these, like, businesses work. I was always, like, just doing these different things for fun. And then I think, you know, I got an agent, had a manager, all that kind of stuff, like, in the early 2000s. And it became a little bit more like, oh, I guess this is really. I'm really doing this. This is my job.
- [13:02]
April Callahan
And your business model still is having your hands on a lot of pots. Before Cass and I were going to interview your. We're like, she is a badass businesswoman. You have developed all these other avenues, which we are gonna ask you about here in a second, I think. But can we first talk about your personal collection of vintage. You have a phenomenal collection. That's how we kind of first connected with you over Instagram. Most recently, we had a little back and forth about an episode that we had done on Lily Ann, because you were like, oh, I have that exact same piece that you guys just posted on Instagram. So we would love to hear about your collection and how you've gone about building it, if there was ever any strategy to that at all. And also if you have any favorite or particularly special pieces that you would like to share with our listeners.
- [13:51]
Dita Von Teese
Yeah, I mean, I've been a collector of vintage clothes, I don't know, since, like, the late 80s, early 90s. And it really first started because I couldn't afford the designer jeans and things that my friends had. So it started there. And I was always trying to get, like, the Vivienne Westwood or the Jean Paul Gaultier look, you know, with vintage, like, corsets, bullet bras, like 40s suits. So, yeah, I just. And I. I also grew up. My mom liked to watch movies, classic cinema from the 30s, 40s, 50s. So I was. That had an imprint on me early on. So I just thought. I grew up thinking, oh, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna wear red lipstick and wear fancy clothes, like those ladies. Like, it didn't occur to me that it was not something people normally did. So, yeah, I just fell in love with vintage for those reasons. Yeah, I mean, I think in the 90s, it was so easy, like, especially
- [14:45]
April Callahan
being in the Midwest. Just saying.
- [14:47]
Dita Von Teese
I still have dreams about my first strip club tour. I drove out to Texas, and I was in, like, Wichita Falls or something in Texas. And every time I would get to a city, I'd open up the yellow. The yellow pages and be like, where's the antique stores? Where's the vintage stores? And I go. And I. There's this place. I still like have dreams about it. It was so amazing. But it was like a Victorian old house and it was these two ladies. One, they were mother and daughter and they were like 70 and 90. And every room was filled with vintage and just cheap, perfect vintage. The whole room of like men's stuff and just it was amazing. And I would go, I went back there like every day and I'd take my like strip club money and go like just pack my suitcases full of vintage. And so it kind of started like that or like also I remember when you could look on, when ebay came around and you could look at everything on ebay in like an hour. And so I got a lot like great things on ebay early on and you know, shopping flea markets and vintage expos and getting super stoked about a, you know, wearing a ten dollar dress on the red carpet years later, you know. And I just feel like, you know what, I, I, I shopped vintage cause I couldn't afford designer stuff and I didn't really like, you know, new stuff. I wanted to look like I was in a movie. And there was a period in my life, I like in around 94 to 96 that I was fully dressing in 40s, down to the underwear, the authentic stockings, the girdle, the hat, the gloves, driving my 1939 Chrysler just like fully in it, you know, in the swing dance scene. I just always loved that. I loved collecting. I love how like it felt special to wear something different than what everyone else is wearing. And of course when you dress like that in everyday life, you get people that are like, are you in a movie or something? I'd be like, yeah, I'm starring in the movie of my life. It's awesome. People would make fun of me for sure, but I was very, just having fun, you know. And also I realized the power of collecting vintage early. Like, okay, you can go to the mall and buy a bunch of junk or you can buy vintage and then you can resell it if you decide it's not for you or if you're tired of it or if, you know, whatever. Oh yeah, I have, I have like two storage units, both of vintage. And then I have some people know because they've seen tours of my house, but I have two of my bedrooms I converted to my closets and I kind of like move things in and out seasonally. And favorite pieces, I mean, it's hard. I have the pieces that are sentimental, you know, things. I have things that I've had since I was 19 years old that are Like I'll never part with or things that were just such a score. I have a big hat collection, like a room that's most. My second room is mostly hats because I love doll tilt hats from the 40s perch hats. There's so many different names for them, but I have, I've been collecting those since the 90s and so I have pretty spectacular that have been like the VNA Museum. But yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to wear some of the things that I love. It's hard to wear them in real life. But I am glad I have, you know, I can do a book signing and wear the most outlandish thing I want because I'm like, well, I'm not.
- [18:02]
April Callahan
That's what people expect from you.
- [18:04]
Dita Von Teese
I don't go out to dinner too often dressed in head to toe vintage because I can be a little shy for that these days. I'm a little like. I don't think I should wear my Dita Von Teese costume over there today if I want to just, you know, pick up a T shirt to go with one of my Julie Lynn Charlotte skirts.
- [18:22]
April Callahan
Yes, yes, yes. The inventor of the poodle skirt.
- [18:26]
Dita Von Teese
I love her skirts. And in fact, we interviewed her recently.
- [18:29]
April Callahan
We found her. You found her?
- [18:31]
Dita Von Teese
I had a few leads and we found her. She was living in Mexico City and we interviewed her for a upcoming book, which is Fashionate the Font Hotel. And we interviewed her and she was, she talked for like three hours. She was so excited to talk. Yeah, we found her because, you know, she made like during the election. I don't know if you had seen this. She made this skirt and put it out there.
- [18:53]
April Callahan
Oh, I didn't know.
- [18:54]
Dita Von Teese
You know, she did, did some political skirts, but then she did something for one of the elections five years ago or something, I don't know. And we had a lead on finding her, so. But we haven't been able to get in touch with her since. So I hope all is okay. But she has some amazing stories. But yeah, I, I. Something about Felcraft I' always loved whether it's on a cardigan sweater or on a skirt. And I collect her skirts, of course, but. And I, and I only actually recently got one of the actual poodles because I was more into the other, all the other themed skirts. But yeah, I just, I love wearing those with like a modern sweater or T shirt or something. And I don't know what it is about them that makes me obsessed with, with felt crafted, you know, all kinds of felt and that's one of those.
- [19:40]
Cassie Zachary
Like the poodle skirt is one of those iconic fashion moments in history that can actually. And this doesn't always happen in fashion history, but that can be traced to one person which is so incredible. And I guess she's probably about 100 years old now.
- [19:54]
April Callahan
So we've already done a fashion history mystery episode that a listener had submitted asking us to do a history of the poodle skirt. So we've actually already done an episode on her. And also Dita, you are wearing cat eye glasses right now. We've actually also done an episode on Altina who is the originator of those who originally. I had the hardest time when we were researching this episode because I couldn't find anything on cat eyes. Like even in the vintage magazines they weren't called cat eyes at that time. They were called harlequin glasses.
- [20:28]
Dita Von Teese
So Harlequin glasses. I would not have guessed that.
- [20:33]
April Callahan
Yeah, she's another fascinating character. A little bit of a handful. Her dad was some wealthy cigarette manufacturer and then she led this wild artistic avant garde life and just happened to be the. The creator of cat eye glasses as well.
- [20:49]
Dita Von Teese
Interesting I'd like to get my hands on is the pre poodle skirt. I like that dachshund skirt, the one that she first made that led her. I'm sure you know all the story, but that's one I would like.
- [21:00]
April Callahan
We will keep our eye out for it. Cast Today is a bit of a cold rainy day in New York City and I am happy to report that I was able to pop on my new Issey Miyake raincoat for the first time. Or maybe rather I should say new to me me as I got it on the RealReal.
- [21:29]
Cassie Zachary
That's right. Because no one does resell like the RealReal. With up to 90% off retail on your favorite luxury brands, you can save money and take care of the planet. They add over 10,000 new arrivals every day and they do their daily drops at 10am and 7pm Eastern Standard Time.
- [21:46]
April Callahan
And with summer coming up, the RealReal is the go to place for your next special piece. Need a dress for a fancy wedding? The perfect vacation sandals. Ready to invest in a new bag to add to your collection? The RealReal offers attainable luxury to indulge your personal style.
- [22:02]
Cassie Zachary
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- [22:26]
April Callahan
dressed listeners, spring is in the air and this week I'm about to embark on a major wardrobe cleanout. And every time I do this, it becomes quite obvious to me that I do need to replace some basics like T shirts, maybe a few pair of everyday pants and dare I say it, unmentionables.
- [22:43]
Cassie Zachary
And that, my friends, is why we love quints. Their lightweight linen pants, dresses and tops start at $30 and are effortless, breathable and easy to wear on Rep Pete. They use premium materials like 100% European linen, organic cotton and ultra soft denim. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality and craftsmanship, not brand markup and Cas.
- [23:05]
April Callahan
As you know, I am completely in love with their second skin bras and undies. The fabric is so light sometimes I don't even realize that I'm wearing them. And I actually just ordered 12 more pair to refresh my lingerie drawer.
- [23:19]
Cassie Zachary
Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to Quince.com dressed for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com dressed for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com dressed girl winter is so last season and now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes.
- [23:47]
Dita Von Teese
Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your
- [23:51]
Cassie Zachary
shoulders that perfect hang on the patio sundress.
- [23:55]
Dita Von Teese
Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done. Hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear open that envelope.
- [24:03]
Cassie Zachary
It's time for a little in person spring treat.
- [24:06]
Dita Von Teese
It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic.
- [24:11]
April Callahan
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- [24:40]
Cassie Zachary
Do you have any stories about vintage that you you know? Any special moments about finding a piece that you'd been looking for or a piece that surprised you?
- [24:50]
Dita Von Teese
One of my Favorite stories is being in San Francisco and I believe it was relic vintage. And I was in there and the owner, he was like, oh, I might have something you want to see that's in the back. It's kind of expensive though. I was like, hit me with your best shot.
- [25:05]
April Callahan
Right?
- [25:06]
Dita Von Teese
And he brings it out and probably seen pictures of me wearing this. It's a gray tweed three piece Dior Haute Couture Paris with the red stamps on it documented in books, photos by Irving Pett, the whole thing. And it's the all three pieces and it fits me perfectly. And it's. Oh, it's kind of expensive. It's think it was like $4,000. And I was like, I mean it's a lot, $4,000 is a lot of money. But this is the kind of piece that somebody would pay $30,000 for. Easy. This, this whole piece, it has the garters that are attached to the blouse. There were a lot of Dior pieces running around. It was licensed a lot. But this is the real thing. Under the Mr. Dior has autumn winter 1954. It's amazing. And so that's like my big score. So much so. Actually somebody wrote me later that I think I worked in the store too and like found my email and bitched me out about buying it because she was saving for it. And I was like, oh, sorry, I don't know what to tell you. It was like, wow, vintage eight mail.
- [26:11]
April Callahan
It's very serious business.
- [26:13]
Cassie Zachary
But it's also that interesting study too in that not maybe not necessarily this person who emailed you, but not everything can go into museum. Right. And so for you to get find this piece and to be able to wear it and give it a second life is amazing.
- [26:27]
Dita Von Teese
Yeah. And you know what, like it could end up in a museum as like, you know, mine. And I love, I've lent a lot of things to museums. Like I have Bettie Page's most famous high heeled shoes that she wore and all the Irving Claw pictures. So like I've lent those to the vna and like, you know, I, I, I love displaying my things and showing them to people and sharing them with people, you know. For sure. Yeah. Could I gift it to a museum? Like, sure, but I'm not gifting it. Yeah, I'm wearing it still every other winter. You know, I take it out and like wear it and I just, it's, it's amazing. I, and of course the story that goes with it, it's amazing and you know, it'll go, it'll go somewhere, hopefully when I'm not around anymore, from my cold, dead hands.
- [27:13]
April Callahan
Well, it's amazing too, the fact that that was an haute couture piece and it fits you because all those haute couture pieces were made specifically made to measure for the individual client. So that's amazing.
- [27:25]
Dita Von Teese
And it's perfect. It has like a built in leather belt and it would. Couldn't have been altered. You know, if it didn't sit like a glove, it couldn't have been altered.
- [27:34]
April Callahan
Yeah, those Dior pieces from that time period, there's a lot of internal structure to them. Which leads me to my next question for you. One, do you collect vintage corsets? And we would love to hear more about both your personal and also your professional relationship to corsetry, because we talk about wearing corsets on the show throughout fashion history. Talk about it on the show all the time. But you are, of course, inarguably one of the most famous practitioners today, and you have been for decades. And not only do you wear them, but you have also practiced tight lacing. And that's also especially fascinating to us.
- [28:13]
Dita Von Teese
Yeah. Well, let's see. My love of the corset came from. I was working in a lingerie store and again, posing for pinups. And I was very in deep with finding vintage lingerie. But the corset was elusive. And I saw somebody. I was out, like at a rave party, and there's a girl and she was wearing a horse. I was like, where did you get that? And she gave me a piece of paper with the name of a store and an address. And I went there and it was like a fet. It was a fetish store. And they made them custom there. And that kind of like sparked my interest in. In corsets. And I started working for that company. And I just like, you know, I made those corsets the base of all of my striptease costumes, which, you know, the corset was not a burlesque wardrobe staple like it is now. It's. That was definitely comes. You know, the popularity of that comes from me just wearing them and building outfits around them and just. It would have been a burlesque star's grandmother's underwear. She wouldn't have worn it in a burlesque house. Any documentation you have of any burlesque costuming and books and stuff, you'll never find anything like that in there. That's just me being obsessed with this. This elusive, controversial piece of clothing. Right. Like, it's restrictive, you know, tight lacing. Was a controversy even, you know, in its time. So, you know, and I was like a fetish model. So it was all part of my world of creating this, like, burlesque fetish Persona and strip teasing from complicated costumes. But I have a few vintage corsets, maybe a dozen of them, and then hundreds of modern ones. And I think the thing is. So Mr. Pearl is, you know, without question, the most important corset designer, modern corset designer of all time. I would say, like, you know, in the last 40 years, right, anything you saw on the Runway, that was McQueen, Jean Paul, Gaultier, like, the most. The most complicated feats in corsetry are all achieved by him, even if you don't know it. Like, Christian Laquat. Like, they all know him. They, Vivian Westwood, you could ask any of them, and they would say, there's no one alive that can do what he does. It's true. Corsetry at the haute couture level, that is unmatched. You know, that's not to diminish other corset makers. I have a few others, but this is the highest level. And he learned about making corsets from this woman who was a. Who passed away recent, fairly recently. She was an off the grid, high, high level dominatrix, the highest order. You should dress in full Victorian with diamond necklaces. And she had the most important corsets, all of the ones that the courtesans wore that he has, the Ethel Granger corsets, this incredible collection in her possession. And that's how Pearl learned how to make corsets. It's like studying those with her. And so I was. When I was on tour last year, I was in Edinburgh, where Pearl is now, and he shared with me that he inherited this collection from her. And he brought this suitcase to dinner at a friend or friend's house, and I was just amazed. Like, it's got all these incredible, rare, unseen photos of Ethel Granger and all of her super cool friends. You know, like, it really. That's a whole other story. But I was sending pictures of them into Jean Paul and he's like, oh, my God. Incredible corsets. Because, like, that's where you. The courtesans and the fetishists were, where you really have the crazy colors and flossing and little messages in the. The embroidery and the. Then the tight lacing with these just extravagant shades. So I'm not a big collector of vintage corsets, to be honest. I honestly, like, love working with Mr. Pearl and making, you know, I forgot to say you know, all the Mugler corsets, he did those, you know, like all those pigeon breasted, like, he's the mastermind. It's like, oh, how do I make a pigeon breasted corset Exaggerated from Mugler. Genius. Okay? So instead of putting my money into vintage corsets, I would rather I commission him for things that are really special, that are frankly, beyond the antique corset world. And the things he does are. There's just. They just go beyond that. They're. They're into the fashion realm and they're all things that will. That are currently in museums. Like one of mine, it just, actually just came back from the Kensington Palace Museum, one of his things. And, you know, he only can make two things a year. You know, he would take on like two things per year for Gaultier, for instance, and. And maybe something for me. He was working on Bridgerton for a while. I know that too.
- [32:49]
Cassie Zachary
Yeah. He's been on our list of, like, dream guests. And you led me straight to my next question, which was about Mr. Pearl, because I was reading an interview with you where you talked about how he put you through the proper training for waist cinching. So not only is he building your corsets, but he's also directing you on how to. To wear them and how to tight lace. Can you talk a little bit more about that or would you like to?
- [33:09]
Dita Von Teese
There's a whole bunch of people that are into tight lacing, and I honestly have never been that way. I just. I have a pliable waist. I love corsetry. I know how to have them fit and cut the way I like it, with my ribs left unsecured. Because, you know, there's different shapes. People like, Like a cone of kosher. There's different shapes and I have a very, like, I like to have my ribs in this hourglass shape and not this. But I've never been, like, I'm going to have the smallest waist. I've never cared about that. I have, you know, certainly been measured at my smallest when I was on the COVID of Playboy or like these moments. But I don't really. I don't do that. Although I have. What I have to say is that what Mr. Pearl would do when I was wearing the butterfly corset, for instance, or the skeleton corset that he did for Jean Paul, he once put a little note, handwritten in cursive, beautifully written, of course, that said, upon waking, you can have a half of an apple an hour before the show, you have the other half just in how coaching me on how to, like, get in, you know, listen, did I probably have a bunch of coffee and have a croissant? I probably did. You know, like, I'm just like, I've never been that serious about it because I don't really care about the numbers. I did, of course, want to fit into that and do right by him. And for the Runway of that and I, the last time I wore the butterfly corset, I was like, I'm not doing that. That was the last time.
- [34:42]
Cassie Zachary
It's a commitment for sure.
- [34:44]
Dita Von Teese
Yeah. And I've already done it. And I don't, like, again, I don't care about the number or like, I don't care if I have the smallest waist. And I'm not trying to promote that, people tight lace or anything like that. For me, it's just, it's an article of clothing that I really love. It's not about a race to have the smallest waist, if that makes sense.
- [35:03]
April Callahan
No. So Mr. Pearl is but one of your very famous, frequent collaborators, especially when it comes to your stage costumes. Who are some of the other designers that you've worked with over the years? And I'm curious if there are special considerations that go into designing your burlesque wardrobe. In particular, what makes a dita costume a dita costume?
- [35:27]
Dita Von Teese
Well, that corset base is one of those, like, hallmarks of what I love. Again, not coming from burlesque history costuming, because I'm always like to have my, you know, my own distinctive looks. But, you know, number one for if we're talking about burlesque costuming, it's Catherine Delish. You know, a lot of people know her for making these extravagant marabou and feather trimmed robes. Those, like, what I'll be wearing, my husband dies in mysterious circumstances, robe
- [35:56]
April Callahan
in
- [35:56]
Dita Von Teese
my right hand in creating strip scapes and in making my most extravagant costumes. All of the, like, head to toe, big, fancy cut, swarovski crystal costumes. Those are all her. And I've worked with other fashion designers, like Jenny Packham has made quite a few costumes for me that are like more on the bugle beaded that side of things instead of the prong set crystal. And then like Alexi Mabille, who's a Parisian couturier, made something for my Vegas show. I worked with Ellie Saab on a few costumes, which I was kind of like, oh, wow, he got it exactly right on the first try. I was so amazed and also shocked when I said, can I have a little piece of this fabric so that I Can make a G string. And they looked at me and, like, shook their heads in their white coats and their, like, their glasses. And I'll be trans, like. Then they come back with two sandwich bags. One has the beads and one has the tulle. And I was like, oh, this was. This is like a long gap embroidered with beautiful, like, stars. So straight up, every tiny bead, you know, I didn't comprehend it. I was just like, oh, it must have come from a beautiful bolt of fabric.
- [37:10]
April Callahan
I'll hand bead it for you.
- [37:12]
Dita Von Teese
Yep. So that was an amazing experience, working with him. I worked with Zuhair Murad on something as well. And Louboutin, of course, has made all the shoes for my shows for, like, 20, 22 years since we met. And so that's always, like, a whole different level of collaboration. He puts me through my paces, literally, with not sensible footwear.
- [37:34]
Cassie Zachary
And there's a specially made Dita heel right from Louboutin.
- [37:37]
Dita Von Teese
Yeah. We build out, like, they build out the heel so that it can curve in even more. It's like a real super curvy heel. He and I get together, and I show him the sketches, show him the handful of crystal that's going on the costume, and he just comes up with some outlandish things. Sometimes he'll make two pairs. Here's the one when you're feeling really brave, and here's the one when you're on shaky ground.
- [38:00]
Cassie Zachary
So.
- [38:01]
April Callahan
And what would the difference between those be? Would it be the cantilever or the comfort level or.
- [38:08]
Dita Von Teese
Yeah, usually the heel height. I like a little, like, interior hidden platform. That's usually an inch, but sometimes the heel will be higher. He did a pair of shoes one time that were just. They were held on just by, like, a little crystal ball between my two toes. And I was like, I need a more significant shoe because the costume is trailing Sorosi crystal, weighing in at, like, I don't know, like, £40 or something. So we've had to make, you know, different shoes according to things that you don't anticipate. Like the weight of the costume.
- [38:40]
April Callahan
Yeah. And I think a lot of people don't really think about. So when you're doing some of those elaborate burlesque numbers you have on four or five different layers of clothing, it gets heavy.
- [38:50]
Dita Von Teese
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's. It's.
- [38:53]
April Callahan
And you make it look so easy.
- [38:56]
Dita Von Teese
Never is, but it's fun. I mean, me and Katherine, when we do costumes together, we've always had true obsession with Swarovski Crystal. Like, we won't use any imitators. It's 100% Swarovski all the time. And we're like, how can we put more crystal on the costume? There's. There'll be like a dozen pieces. Okay. Like, if I really sit here and count, and I'm like, okay, I got the jacket, the necklace, four braces, four roses, two gloves, three pairs of underwear, the corset, the bra that, you know, the skirt, we try to pile on as much as possible just to push the limits of what people have ever seen before. And it. And she's like the mastermind behind all of that stuff. I mean, some of her costumes are the things that Jean Paul's like, I need to come backstage and see that costume. You know, stuff, you know, and it doesn't look like. It doesn't look. You know, people forget. It's like wearing a chandelier, you know? But it's fun. It's, like, fun to make people go, oh, my eyes hurt. It's so spark.
- [40:03]
Cassie Zachary
In many ways, that's what people pay for to come see, right? Is that show, you know, that spectacular extravaganza.
- [40:10]
Dita Von Teese
I'm not an amazing dancer doing high kicks and backflips, so they're not coming to see me do that. And even if I could do that, I think I would choose the rhinestones first.
- [40:20]
Cassie Zachary
I like that choice a lot.
- [40:23]
Dita Von Teese
Things can look ridiculous if you dance a lot. Like, sometimes you just gotta, like, take it all in and let people have a good look. And so, you know, sometimes people try to insult me by saying, like, she doesn't really. She doesn't really dance, like, so and so. And I'm like, I don't want to dance, like, so and so. Like, I don't know. Even when I. Even as someone who loves Sid Charisse, it's like my favorite moments of hers are like the in betweens. It's the holding face, the little things, the little tiny gestures that are so effective.
- [40:51]
Cassie Zachary
Dita fans, dress listeners, we cut here with part one of our two part episode with the inimitable mission Von Tees. But we'll be back with part two on Thursday. And in our next episode, we are going to chat about her current residency in Vegas and some of the amazing showgirl costumes she resurrected out of the archives of one of Vegas's most iconic stage shows ever, Jubilee.
- [41:12]
April Callahan
We will also chat about Dita's guest starring role at Crazy Horse, which any of our past travelers who have been on one of our Paris trips will already know. That I'm obsessed with Crazy Horse. It's a Parisian cabaret. It's an institution. And to get to hear the backstage tea from Dita was so, so cool. So you know Paris Dressing to get undressed. These are just a few of my favorite things. Until Thursday, Dress listeners, may you consider the art of undressing for your partner or maybe even more importantly, yourself next time you get dressed.
- [41:46]
Cassie Zachary
As always, we love hearing from you, so if you'd like to email us, please do so@helloressedhistory.com or you can DM us@dressedpodcast, which is where we post images and reels to accompany each week's episode. And you can actually find this episode under the hashtag dressed339. If you're listening to this episode in the future and want to quickly find images, we do a hashtag associated with our episode so you can check that out. You can find both of Dita's books on our Dress bookshelf by way of the link in our show notes. Or you can head over to bookshop.org shop forward/dress and you can find a link to that in our show notes as well.
- [42:24]
April Callahan
And you can always be assured that when you make a purchase from our Dressed bookshelf, you are buying from an independent bookseller. We have worked with bookshop.org to partner us with sellers who are not Mr. Bezos. Also dress listeners, we did make passing mention of two past Dressed episodes, one on the history of the Poodle Skirt and its creator Julie Ann Charlotte, and also our episode on the history of Cat Eye Glasses and their creator Altina Shanazi. So check those out as well.
- [42:54]
Cassie Zachary
Yeah, and also just if you want to continue learning about the Showgirl, we have done a two part episode on the history of fashion and the Showgirl, so check that out as well. So friends, dress. The School of Fashion is now open for those of you with stylish minds who would like to take classes with us. I've already started what Women Wore to the revolution. 100 plus years of transformative Fashion. We're having so much fun just sharing it with you. Y' all are taking notes. Y' all are in conversation with one another. We're having such a blast again. For more information on our online classes, head over to DressedHistory.com and click on the Classes button at the top of the page. Or you can head to the link in our show notes.
- [43:34]
April Callahan
Please head over to dressedpodcast on Instagram or at Dressed Podcast without the underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.
- [43:46]
Cassie Zachary
Remember, we love hearing from you dress listeners, so if you'd like to write to us, you can do so@hello dresshistory.com dressedhistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And there you can also check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.
- [44:05]
April Callahan
We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you're interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our bookshop.org bookshelf so that address is bookshop.org shop dressed and there you will find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles.
- [44:26]
Cassie Zachary
Do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? We are so excited to to now be a part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free history subscription Airwave History plus and this is available on Apple Podcasts and the subscription brings you our podcast as well as 27 other popular history podcasts. Ad free for $5.99 per month. More information is available at the link in our bio.
- [44:51]
April Callahan
Thank you as always for tuning in.
- [44:53]
Dita Von Teese
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April Callahan
three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.
- [45:21]
Cassie Zachary
See full terms@mintmobile.com if you're into tech, you'll love this.
- [45:26]
Dita Von Teese
TikTok is a live lab where users post instant reviews of the latest trends.
- [45:31]
Cassie Zachary
Download TikTok and check it out.
- [45:38]
April Callahan
More Dressed coming your way soon. Dressed the History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.