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Dressed: The History of Fashion
Fashion Adventures in Wonderland: Dressed x Dressed Fancy, an interview with Lucy Clayton and Dr. Benjamin Wild (Dressed Classic)
01:00:29
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- [00:01]
Narrator
This is the story of the 1. As the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, she knows the only thing more important than having the right safety gear is having it there when you need it. That's why she partners with Grainger for auto reordering so her team members can count on her to have cut resistant gloves on hand and each shift can run safely and efficiently. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [00:30]
April Callahan
Please enjoy One of our favorite episodes from the Dressed archive of over 500.
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Cassie Zachary
Plus shows the history of Fashion is.
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Producer/Announcer
A production of dress media.
- [00:44]
Cassie Zachary
With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common.
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Producer/Announcer
Every day, we all get dressed welcome.
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April Callahan
To Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when.
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Host/Interviewer
Of why we wear.
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April Callahan
We are friends, fashion historians and your.
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Producer/Announcer
Hosts Cassie Zachary and April Callahan.
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Cassie Zachary
So Cass, on this very gloomy day here in New York City, where we are currently in the middle of a hurricane, I have one question for you and that is, what exactly do you think that one wears to visit the Bora Goes?
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Host/Interviewer
Well, considering I have absolutely no clue what said Boro Gove is, I think.
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April Callahan
You'Re going to have to enlighten me.
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Cassie Zachary
Well, you are perfectly correct, because there are very few people who know what that is, and I will explain by saying this. Twas brillig and the slither toves did gyre and gimble in the wave all mimsy were the borogoves and the mom wrath's outgrave. Beware the jabberwock, my son, the jaws that bite and the claws that catch. Beware the jubjub bird and shun the fruit Bundersnatch. So, okay, that is probably the only poem that I actually know by heart, but I think that some of our listeners will probably recognize that as Lewis Carroll's nonsensical masterpiece poem Jabberwocky, which actually features prominently as a plot point in one of the most beloved children's novels of all time, through the Looking Glass.
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Host/Interviewer
That's right, Dress listeners today is not only about Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, but it's specifically about Alice's book Fashion Adventures in Wonderland, which of course we love. We are so pleased to welcome back not one, but two past dress guests Lucy Clayton and Dr. Benjamin Wilde of the UK podcast Dress Fancy, which quote, explores the popularity, prevalence and power of fancy dress. End quote. Or what we might call a costume here in the U.S. yes, and we.
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Cassie Zachary
Will also hear from a couple of surprise guests who worked on the recent exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, which is entitled Alice Curiouser and Curiouser. That exhibition was actually the spark that led to this podcast collaboration of Dressed times. Dress Fancy. As we're going to speak about today, some of the most iconic looks of Wonderland and how they themselves have actually inspired fashion history.
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Host/Interviewer
So, Ben and Lucy, it is always such a treat to have you. Welcome back to the show.
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Cassie Zachary
Ben and Lucy, welcome back to the show.
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Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Hello. It's really lovely to be here again.
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Cassie Zachary
Yes. And I just want to say, Lucy, this is your second time joining us, and then this is actually your third time joining us, which I do believe, if I am not mistaken, might just make you dress most frequent guests.
- [03:43]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Wow. I need, like, a badge or a sash for that. I feel like a veteran.
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Cassie Zachary
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don't know. I don't know if you watch Saturday Night Live, but they always do this.
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Harriet Reid
They do.
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Cassie Zachary
Five Timers Club. I was. I was kind of feeling like we need, like a Three Timers dress. Detective hat.
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Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Oh, my. I'm so up for that. That would be amazing.
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Cassie Zachary
I think you might have a challenger coming up soon, later this summer.
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Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Just say, oh, I love that sense of competition there that you've just introduced.
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Cassie Zachary
So we are so excited to speak to you both today about Wonderland, Alice and all things fashion. And when you all proposed this topic to us, we thought it was so charming and so wonderful. And at the same time, I just want to point out that I think upon initial consideration, you know, this connection between a very much beloved children's book, which is now more than 150 years old, and the world of high fashion, when you kind of think about those things next to each other, it feels far apart. But those two fantasy realms are actually, in fact, much closer than one might suspect, which is, of course, what we're going to talk about today as we are a history podcast. Though, before we go down this fashion rabbit hole, and we say this on the show all the time, which I just love the fact that it is pertinent to today's episode. Ben, would you tell us a little bit about the history of the book, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, and also perhaps a little bit about its intended audience at the time that it was first written and published?
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Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Well, I suppose the first thing to say, which is maybe surprising to us today, is that Carroll's book was not an immediate hit. And this is in large part because he was a unknown author at the time. Of course, though, as we know, things would soon change. And circumstances were on his side. The British historian A.N. wilson, who has written very widely about the Victorian period, has said that the late 19th century witnessed, and I quote especially special flowering of children's literature. It's a very beautiful phrase, but also really apartment because it's exactly during this period that Alice's Adventures in Wonderland first appeared in 1865. And, of course, the sequel, Alice through the Looking glass, followed in 1871. More to the point, though, it's at this time that the now famous and much loved children's stories that we all know and love. Things like Rudyard Kipling's the Jungle Book, which was published as a short series between 1893 and 1894, also appear.
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Cassie Zachary
I love that book so much.
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Lucy Clayton
Yeah.
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Dr. Benjamin Wilde
And again, I think a bit like Alice's Adventures in Wonderland has been sort of massively, sort of reinterpreted and almost renegotiated with the passing decades. Now, this flowering of children's literature, as Wilson terms it, owes much, I think, to. To a shifting perception in society. Now, this is influenced by philosophers like John Locke and Jean Jacques Rousseau. And although that sounds quite heady, I think essentially that the gist of what they're conveying is the idea that children are born innocent. And what that really means is that society, parents in particular, really have a duty to guide the development of the young. And I think this relates to Carol's book in particular, because it has such a moralizing and edifying tone. You know, this is a story that changes us as we interact with it. And I think the same could be said of Rudyard Kipling's book as well. But I think this edifying and moralizing tone really does go a long way to explain why these books, though aimed at children, can also speak so clearly and compellingly to adults, then, as indeed.
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Lucy Clayton
Now, and the world that Charles Dodgson, writing under the pen name Lewis Carroll, created in the books, has over time become part of our collective imagination. I mean, there are just so many shared reference points and so many expressions and quotations from the book have permeated our language, and it remains creatively as inspiring and relevant today as it's always been. And that's remarkable, especially for a children's book. And we were inspired for this conversation by the current exhibition at the V and A here in London, which is called Alice Curious and Curiouser, which explores the legacy and enduring fascination with the book. And I'm delighted that we'll be joined later by Professor Kira Vaclovich from Queen Mary University in London and Harriet Reid, who's the assistant creator of the Theatre and Performance at the VA Museum, to help illuminate our look at Alice fashion even further.
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Cassie Zachary
Yes, and I actually discovered something quite curious when I was preparing to chat to you both. All of a sudden it occurred to me that we haven't really covered children's wear on dress. And, and this is a complete oversight, something which we obviously need to rectify as soon as possible. So we will get to that. But for the purposes of our discussion here today, might one of you kind of speak a little bit to the nature of children's wear at this time? You know, what was Victorian children's relationship to clothing? And how does Alice fit into this picture?
- [09:04]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Okay, sure. So, as the. As the resident historian, I guess I'll take that one on. I mean, I think there are clear developments in children's dress, and these are apparent really from the 16th century, if we're taking a very long view, particularly for boys. And I think that's important because with boys there is very much this emphasis on a preparation for manhood. So an example of that, I think, is that between the 16, 16th and 17th centuries, we start to see that boys begin to wear what I suppose we could refer to as an embryonic form of men's dress, as breeches are worn in place of frocks, which of course, are still worn by young girls at this time. Now, by the time we get into the 19th century, so the time of Alice, there really is the beginnings on an emphasis of boys wearing a jacket or a coat. And this gives rise to items of dress that we're probably all familiar with, at least in name. So, for example, the knickerbockers, essentially, these baggy trousers, knickerbockers generally being paired with collarless jackets. And so here then we have the makings of various forms of jackets and suitings that we again, are probably quite familiar with. Things like the sailor suit or the Little Lord Fauntleroy suit, for example. And these combine elements of men's contemporary clothing and also military style detailing. Now, if boys then are being almost prematurely aged to look like men, and by implication, I think this is a really important point to prepare them for roles that they would take on in adult life, which may include, probably was intended to include involvement in maintaining Europe's overseas empires. By contrast, the dress of girls, when we look at it today, really seems infantilizing. You know, I'm really struck in some ways horrified that whenever I look at 19th century paintings that depict boys and girls, their difference in Clothing implies vast disparities in age. This idea, in a sense that boys are maturing, whereas girls are immature and in some ways becoming more infantilized. Which of course was. Was not really the case. But I do think we see this, those ideas and those sort of aesthetic developments being reflected in the dress of Alice, which of course is characterized by a frock which was maybe made of cotton or silk and of course bows and frills, which we all love and which were common in girls clothing at the time.
- [11:44]
Lucy Clayton
I feel, Ben, I should state here for the record that my absolute undying love of the sailor suit made both my poor children be forced to dress as sort of mini Victorians. And I'm even partial to it myself. Although mine tend to be kind of 80s revival jumpsuits or like Laura Ashley, kind of very Princess Diana when pregnant kind of vibes. That's a strong look in this house. But I think as you're talking about it, it's worth noting that for many Victorians, and Carol was certainly one of them, this idealized and maybe frozen in time figure of a girl was something of an obsession. And so there are hundreds of examples in art of perfectly pictured, angelic looking children. Which is interesting in relation to what Ben said about this shift in perception of childhood from something that, you know, frankly we all have to endure to something that should be celebrated. And in lots of those images you'll see pinafores over the dresses just like Alice's. And Professor Vaclovich covers all of this in her book Fashioning at Alice where she writes, pinafores served the purpose of protecting clothing from dirt. Children in illustrations are frequently shown wearing pinafores, but such garments are generally absent in formal family portraits. Girls were recorded for prosperity not in pinafores, but in their Sunday best. Alice's plain pinafore with just one line of decoration around the edge, thus conveys a sense of informality and readiness for encounters with dirt. And I love the idea that she's kind of ready for adventure from the beginning because of what she wearing. And it's funny because actually I don't know if this is the case in America, but here there's still quite a lot of kind of weird pinafore legacy in school uniforms. So the school that I spent just my sixth form at which, so I was, guess I was 16 to 18 in this time, have a royal blue kind of apron that sits over the uniform of the dress way beyond an age where that is appropriate.
- [13:36]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
I mean, I guess that's a strong look, isn't it. It's bizarre.
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Lucy Clayton
I mean, it looks, obviously, it looks desperately old fashioned, but it also looks kind of. Well, I have to tell you, they are universally unflattering, actually. I think that's kind of the point. I think it's supposed to be a sort of levelling anti fashion garment, so there's no sense of competition. And so obviously that's kind of, I guess, an honourable sentiment, but I mean, they're hideous. And the other thing that we know from the text about Alice's dress, which I love, is that it has a pocket. And that proves essential. Exactly. That proves essential in her journey. But I think it also really reminded me of the kind of current debate around contemporary womenswear, with pockets so often being left out of dresses, in spite of, obviously, a consumer appetite for them, in contrast to menswear, which tends to prioritize that kind of practicality. So I think that's a kind of. I love that she has it. It feels almost like a kind of superpower there for her.
- [14:29]
Cassie Zachary
Well, I mean, I think that says a lot that I was like, oh, pocket.
- [14:33]
Lucy Clayton
Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean?
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April Callahan
Right.
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Cassie Zachary
That explains it all right there.
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Lucy Clayton
Just give us dresses with pockets. It's really not difficult.
- [14:41]
Cassie Zachary
We had received so many listener requests to do an episode on the history of the pocket up until the time that we actually did one last year, maybe in 2019, is when we finally did it. But it was quite popular, as you can imagine. So back to Alice. You know, the Alice books, eventually, Ben, you stated that they were immediately a hit, but eventually they took on a life of their own. They became not only the most popular children's books in England, but also the entire world. Their popularity has crossed national and cultural divides, languages and ages, as we are all here sitting, speaking about it. And, you know, Alice and her friends have been beloved by generations of children and adults. So my question is, what about these tales captured and still continues to capture the public imagination?
- [15:36]
Lucy Clayton
I think it's a very rich story. It's detailed and it's exploratory, and while it's charmingly naive, it's also pretty complex. So it has appeal way beyond the nursery, as we're about to discuss, I guess. And it covers universal themes, it transports the reader so far beyond the realms of reality. And Alice is a really compelling guide in that dream world. And we, we often talk about dress and costume as a means of world building on Dress Fancy podcast and the world that Carol creates in these pages is visually super stimulating, thanks to the descriptions and the language and the accompanying illustrations, but it's full of wild proportions and riddles and peculiar bonkers eccentricity, and I guess it's a kind of quest story about growth and isolation and discovery, and it's just beautifully rendered in words and pictures.
- [16:30]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
So to get a sense of the enduring appeal of Alice and her adventures, I spoke with Harriet Reid, assistant curator of theatre and performance at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London, who was heavily involved with the museum's Curious and Curious show. Alice's story is known the world over and has been reinterpreted and told many, many times. Why was it that the VA wanted to revisit her adventures at this particular moment?
- [16:57]
Harriet Reid
I mean, Alice's story has been told many times before, but the reason why the VA wanted to stage an exhibition about it was because it'd never been explored in terms of its huge cultural impact globally. So we wanted to tell the story of the origin of the books in Carol's World in Oxford. But we also wanted to completely expand our understanding of the Alice phenomenon, so looking at its life post 19th century, its impact on film and theatre, art, photography, fashion, music, food, even science, and to engage with creative practitioners and designers and talk to them about how Alice had impacted their work and their industry. And we also have some amazing objects in our own collection, from annotated proofs by the illustrator John Tenniel to photography by Julia Margaret Cameron. She took some amazing photographs of the real Alice, Alice Liddell, who inspired the story. And we also were looking at the messages of the book. So there were certain themes that felt very prescient to our society at the time. The idea of Alice being this symbol of empowerment and truth to power. Her curiosity, her determination felt very important. And we needed to look at these values and messages of the books that maybe hadn't been appreciated at the time, but we certainly do recognise them now as adults.
- [18:32]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
In one sense, I think Alice's stories are remarkably English. What do you think accounts for their widespread and enduring global appeal?
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Harriet Reid
I think it is really interesting how these books, which are seen as the classic English children's stories, have become a global phenomenon. And I think there are several reasons behind it. Firstly, the genius of the author Lewis Carroll and his illustrator John Tenniel. The illustrations in the book have become iconic, and that's down to Tenniel's characterizations and his humour and his detail. There's a reason why Alice's outfit has become this widely adopted fancy dress costume. I mean, you can partly attribute that to Disney, but Disney took that from the original Tenniel at the end of the day. And I think also, I mean, the books themselves have been translated over 170 times. And that's down to the the challenge of Carol's language. I think it's a really interesting prospect to kind of tackle these riddles and puns and rhymes that he incorporates into the books and make them understandable in a different language. And also Wonderland itself, it's not actually mapped, it's not actually tied to a geographical location. So it's uniquely adaptable to different cultures. And its themes as well, they're still universal. So whether Carol was exploring satire or slapstick humor or was making social commentary, although it's rooted in the Victorian era, it's still relevant today. And from people like Salvador Dali to Vivienne Westwood, there's still elements that can be understood and taken and reinterpreted and reimagined. So it will continue to be an enduring classic and it will continue to inspire other creative minds in the future.
- [20:39]
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- [21:09]
April Callahan
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- [23:33]
Cassie Zachary
Lucy, you mentioned this term world building earlier, and I think that is such an apt description for the Alice stories because they really are a world into their own wonderland. It is a place with a capital W. And this world building was given this gigantic assist by the illustrations, which the original illustrations were done by John Tenniel in the book. Could you tell us a little bit about Tenniel's original illustrations, Ben?
- [24:04]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Sure. And I think you're absolutely right. Tenniel's contribution to the Alice project was really important. I mean, I might even go as far as saying it was absolutely, absolutely pivotal. At the time of the 1865 publication of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, Tenniel, of course, in England was known as the chief cartoonist for the satirical journal Punch. He was also critically acclaimed for the drawings that he produced for other books. What he therefore brings to Alice is a name, and I guess with that legitimacy, and that's a name and a legitimacy that at this point, Carol, as I suggested earlier, still relatively unknown, lacks. So in many respects, I think Tenniel is important for that and that role that he provides. But also, of course, his drawings very much then as now, frame our understanding of Alice both in terms of her character development. But Also, of course, of this, as you said, this wonderland that Carol is creating with words. And I think it's really interesting that a new illustrated book of the Alice stories, which features drawings by the British illustrator Chris Riddell, demonstrates very much the ongoing influence of Tenniel's work, especially the depiction of the white rabbit, because Riddell has spoken and said that he could just cannot imagine the white rabbit looking in any way different. And so in his book, he's largely been faithful to what tenure created almost sort of 300 years ago. And I think that enduring appeal and that during sense that we have to honor, if you like, Tenniel's artistic abilities, I think, is evidenced really through the notes and letters from the 19th century, which reveal that Tenniel was just as much of an obsessive over detail as Carol. You know, in creating his drawings, he would sometimes adapt images that he'd initially created for Punch. Other times, for example, particularly in coming up with the character of the Duchess, he appears to have used a 16th century portrait for inspiration. Natural history illustrations inform the creation of the dodo. So there's this real sense, I think, of a desire for accuracy as well as personality. Somewhat uniquely, though, I think Carroll, again, maybe sort of bespeaking his kind of obsessive nature, applied his drawings directly onto woodblocks. And oftentimes these would then have to be reworked as he changed his mind and rethought details about the illustration. Regrettably, much of this initial detail from Tenniel's drawings was lost in the early printings of the Alice book because of a botched printing job. And this was actually quite a significant problem. Carroll had undertaken to essentially fund the entire printing costs himself. So this is a kind of a cautionary tale, a lesson to all kind of budding authors and publishers, maybe just don't do that. But these issues were, of course, resolved in subsequent printings, and the kind of true, I suppose, delight of Tenniel's intentions could. Could become clear. And I think it's. It's because of that that Tenniel's drawings give us this enduring image of. Of Alice. And of course, this is really what we're talking about here, what she wears.
- [27:28]
Lucy Clayton
And Alice was fashionable from the outset. Those original illustrations by Tenniel are so evocative that they capture the public imagination and have never really left it. So soon after it became popular, Lewis Carroll was inundated with requests to adapt things for household items or gifts. So she was a kind of craze with her own merch. And the exhibition starts with a lovely collection of kind of biscuit tins and board games, these really domestic items that have been all kind of alicified. And I think that demonstrates that she's a cultural. With a really strong start.
- [28:00]
Professor Kira Vaclovich
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [28:01]
Cassie Zachary
I think a lot of our listeners might have first encountered Alice not by way of the books, but maybe the Disney version, the animated version, which was released in 1951, and it was conceived in Technicolor by the Disney animator Mary Blair and team. And I also just want to point out that Mary Blair was also responsible for Disney's 1950 version of Cinderella. So there's a connection there. But what was the relationship between Tenniel's much beloved illustrations for the book and the animations that Blair and her team produced?
- [28:36]
Lucy Clayton
Well, Disney bought the rights to Tenniel's illustrations right back in 1931. So there was always a relationship and a connection between the two. I feel like they do exist on a continuum. But Mary Blair's concept art for the film, as you say, has kind of defined how we all picture Alice, especially in relation to her famous blue dress, which is clearly influenced by Dior's new look in terms of silhouette and animation. Historian John Canemaker wrote about Blair's influence on Disney productions in that 1943-53 period, which you're talking about with Cinderella.
- [29:07]
Harriet Reid
And.
- [29:07]
Lucy Clayton
And once you know that it's her as the kind of visual sort of connection between the two, you can't unsee it, particularly, I think, in the costumes and the clothes. It's kind of lovely to compare all her. The films of which she was kind of influential on, because they all feel like they kind of have this kind of lovely speaking to one another, I suppose. Anyway, he wrote about her, which. And I love this because I think it's so accurate. Beneath her deceptively simple style lies enormous visual sophistication and craftsmanship in everything from color choices to composition. And I think Alice's blue dress definitely delivers on that. It's almost a kind of character in its own right in the film. It sort of bounces about with real personality and a fashion fact that blue was already known as Alice Blue after Teddy Roosevelt's daughter made her social debut wearing a gown in that color in 1902. And there's this beautiful portrait of her wearing it. And I love that she looks quite defiant in it as well. She looks quite Alice, really.
- [30:04]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Well, I'm actually going to come in there and give you another fashion fact, because, of course, the first colorized version of the dress, and this was one that was supervised by John Tenniel, was in fact not blue, but yellow. And I think that the fact that, you know, this factoid will probably jar with kind of listeners really does just go to show how effective Tenniel, and indeed later Disney and Blair have been at making a kind of vision and version in our minds of the correct Alice.
- [30:34]
Cassie Zachary
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And the correct Alice goes on to appear in so many other incarnations on the silver screen. There are countless other incarnations of these tales. Do either of you have a favorite that you might like to speak about a little bit?
- [30:53]
Lucy Clayton
Well, I suppose one that got a lot of critical attention at the time, but which is probably best remembered for its costumes, to be honest, is The Tim Burton 2010 adaptation, which of course is also a Disney production. And Colleen Atwood won the Oscar for costume design for that. And the clothes are cinematically beautiful, but they also, and this is why it's interesting, behave quite differently in this version. And what I like about it is that it's an example of what we often refer to on Dress Fancy podcast as a moment where the clothes tell so much of the story. So Alice begins in a kind of version of a 1951 blue party dress because. And Atwood described the Disney, the original Disney blue dress as it's an iconic thing, not a bad thing, which is, I think, very gracious.
- [31:38]
Professor Kira Vaclovich
So this.
- [31:38]
Lucy Clayton
So her version of the starter dress, if you like, is kind of muted and it's delicate, but it still has all of the essential elements that make Alice recognizable to us. But then as she travels through Wonderland, her clothes adapt and change along with the world around her.
- [31:54]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
And.
- [31:54]
Lucy Clayton
And it's more or less unique because Atwood said, we made a decision that as Alice shrunk and grew, her dress would not. So you see and hear, you know, fabric ripping and there's this awkward kind of exposing moment. So at one point, the Red Queen orders close this enormous girl and he's sort of body shaming her in front of everyone. And ultimately at the end, of course, she becomes a classic Burton heroine, adhering entirely to his very distinctive visual aesthetic, but bearing very little relation to the familiar nursery Alice. So I think it feels like she's less of a one dimensional symbol of a girl and much more of an evolving, growing person in that film. And she even appears in full armor at one point, which obviously is about as far away as being confined to a single blue party dress as you can get. So the whole thing feels very as if someone's just gone. You know, it's Alice, but make it Fashion kind of thing. Yes, yes, yes.
- [32:47]
Cassie Zachary
Well, Alice and Make it fashion happens again and again. And this really introduces the topic of Alice's wardrobe, which has, of course, served as an inspiration to so many fashion designers over the years. Who are a few of the designers who count amongst the fans of the Wonderland look?
- [33:07]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Well, it's almost a kind of embarrassment of riches, as you suggest. You know, where do we start? So many fashion designers have been influenced by Alice over the years. I think for me, though, one of the most visually interesting interpretations of the Wonderland look is that by Annie Leibovitz for American Vogue in December 2003. So featuring designs by Helmut Lang, Tom Ford, and Victor and Rolf, and indeed including some of these designers themselves in the shoot. So, for example, we have Tom Ford cast as the White Rabbit, obviously in an immaculate suit. We have Victor and Rolf as Tweedledee and Tweedledum. Again, another obvious and kind of sublime decision. And then finally, Stephen Jones as the Mad Hatter, wearing one of his own creations. And in placing these characters, Leibovitz's shoot reimagines some of the story's most memorable scenes, not least the one to which Lucy just referred, where, of course, you've got Alice sort of growing or kind of receding and the clothes being bursting and tearing in the process. At the same time, though, we do have something a little bit different. So for the 150th anniversary of Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, which was in. In 2015, Vivienne Westwood produced a Mad Hatter's Tea Party that was heavily based on John Tenniel's designs and of course, was complete with adult sized paper models of some of the story's key figures, including the White Rabbit. She also, of course, produced a new cover for a reissue of Carroll's book at the same time. So I think in terms of couture and design, in very much the broadest senses of that term, the aesthetic richness of the Alice stories has and I think will continue and suddenly hope will continue to be a source of inspiration.
- [35:03]
Cassie Zachary
Yeah, for sure. And it's not always all about Alice either, because many of the other characters in the books are so sublimely, sartorially, way over the top. You've just mentioned the Mad Hatter, who is always a fan favorite, of course, and I'm hoping that we can talk a little bit about him first, because that character has a connection to the fashion industry actually, as a profession, and we've talked about it. Before on the show. But in case some of our listeners might have missed that particular particular episode, the history of hat making has this rather curious and macabre little fact that the Mad Hatter's name refers to. Might one of you shine a little bit of light on that for us?
- [35:48]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
No. Absolutely. So, you know, I think you're absolutely right. So the Mad Hatter is so called because during the 18th and 19th centuries, mercury nitrate was used within the process that turned animal furs into interfelt for hats. Now, long term exposure to this noxious chemical brew meant that hatters could develop some pretty horrible ailments, including, and this is a kind of not particularly pleasant list, so brace yourselves. But they could develop, apparently shakes, hallucinations and speech impediments. So all of this, which is quite ghastly, gives rise to that expression, mad as a hatter.
- [36:30]
Lucy Clayton
I'm afraid it's usually Ben that gets all technical on me. But actually I'm going to step in here with a surprising reference from the British Medical Journal, one of my favorite bedtime reads and an article from 1983 by H.A. waldron, which actually refutes the idea that the Mad Hatter was suffering from mercury poisoning on clinical grounds. And he writes, the principal psychotic features of erethism, which is mercury poisoning, were excessive timidity, diffidence, increasing shyness, loss of self confidence, anxiety, and a desire to remain unobserved and unobtrusive. It could scarcely be said that the Mad Hatter suffered to any great extent from the desire to go unnoticed, or that the dominant traits of his personality were shyness and timidity. He is portrayed rather as an extravagant extrovert. And then it goes on to push this theory that actually he was modelled on a bloke that Carol knew who. Who was a furniture dealer, which is far less interesting and far less romantic. So I'm sorry, Ben.
- [37:28]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Well, that's me told. Although I think you've just described my personality traits there. But anyway, dress fancy, I think now has a new science correspondence, so can you.
- [37:36]
Lucy Clayton
No, I don't want to be a science correspondent. Don't make me do that.
- [37:40]
Cassie Zachary
Oh, it's okay, Lucy. Cass actually was just teasing me the other day that I'm like the science person.
- [37:46]
Lucy Clayton
Okay, maybe we will be the science people then.
- [37:49]
Professor Kira Vaclovich
It's fine.
- [37:50]
Cassie Zachary
I mean, I will say, just this morning while I was working on something, I was on the Journal of American Medicine of Dermatology journal looking something up.
- [38:01]
Lucy Clayton
Oh, I love this. So who says that fashion is a small subject? It takes you to many places.
- [38:07]
Cassie Zachary
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when you're like, British medical journal, I'm like, I'm right there with you.
- [38:11]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
We've got kindred spirits here. Fine spirits.
- [38:13]
Harriet Reid
All right.
- [38:14]
Lucy Clayton
I'm more into it now.
- [38:22]
Cassie Zachary
Okay, so we have already spoken about Annie Leibovitz's editorial reimagining of Alice and her friends for Vogue, but I'm actually hoping that we can chat about another photographer's more recent project. And Cass is a huge fan of Tim Walker's work. I think she would probably say he's her favorite, favorite fashion photographer, so this one's for her. Could you share with us a little bit about Walker's 2018 shoot for the Pirelli calendar? And for any of our listeners who aren't familiar with the Pirelli calendar, it's kind of this iconic publication. They produce an actual calendar that has photographs. They've been doing it for many, many years now. They don't sell them. And can correct me here if I'm wrong. I think they're kind of like gifts for industry insiders only.
- [39:08]
Lucy Clayton
I think so, yeah.
- [39:09]
Cassie Zachary
Kind of like this prestigious elite gift or object to get.
- [39:13]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Yeah, no, absolutely. So here, then, we're Talking about the 45th annual Pirelli calendar that was, I think, not surprisingly, in light of what we've said so far, heavily influenced by the drawings of John Tenniel and really like The Leibovitz shoot 15 years before it, based around some of the story's most memorable scenes. And I think, for me, what makes the shoot stand out, apart from, I guess, the whimsy that characterizes Walker's work, is that this is a shoot that really does, I think, have an edge to it. You know, it's not solely an homage to Carol and Tenniel, but an attempt, and I think, for me, a really successful one, to make their work relevant and resonate today. And I think this is all about the casting. So all of the models are black, and there's also this. This quite interesting dynamic play with gender. So, for example, RuPaul is the queen of Hearts, which is just such an inspired and brilliant choice.
- [40:13]
Lucy Clayton
And of course, it was. Of course. Who else? And it was styled by Edward Innoval, who's obviously editor in chief of British Vogue, and perhaps it goes some way toward correcting what is an exceptionally white narrative in this story. And he said at the time, it's very important that the story of Alice be told to a new generation. Her Adventure in Wonderland resonates with the world we live in today. Obstacles we have to overcome and the idea of celebrating difference. To see a black Alice today means children of all races can embrace the idea of diversity from a very young age and also acknowledge that beauty comes in all colors.
- [40:48]
Cassie Zachary
Lucy, a little birdie might have mentioned to me that you have given Rue a run for her money as the Queen of Hearts. So you're going to have to tell us everything about this.
- [41:00]
Lucy Clayton
Well, I'm obviously not foolish enough to try and compete with RuPaul, who is queen of, let's be honest, everything. But yes, I have done a turn as the Queen of Hearts a few years ago at a fete champetre at a country house party. I'm a fanatic dress upper, so I need very little encouragement. And this was a crazy, riotous evening where all my friends came as characters from Wonderland. So we were kind of a crew, kind of off this minibus as a sort of full team. We actually ended up with two Alices, which was either bad planning or accidentally kind of in keeping with the surrealness of the story, I'm not sure which. And the invitations I made were really detailed using kind of cut up playing cards and little eat me, drink me motifs. I can show you a picture of them. And I wore a long pinky red chiffon dress with a corset that I'd made by binding layers and layers of ribbon. I remember it really difficult to get out of later in the evening, I think I had to use scissors. And I had a big corsage of red silk roses, which is sort of again relevant to the story with the painting of the roses. And I'd ironed on lots of red and pink hearts all around the hem and then had like a child's tiara as a repurposed crown. And the dress was so battered by the end of the night, it had to immediately be retired. And someone was sick in the minibus on the way home, which completely lowered the tone.
- [42:25]
Harriet Reid
So.
- [42:26]
Lucy Clayton
I know, sorry. It was great fun. But I definitely was no match for RuPaul.
- [42:31]
Cassie Zachary
Yeah, I mean, all good fancy dress should be retired if the party was correct, right?
- [42:37]
Lucy Clayton
Absolutely. I could not agree more.
- [42:42]
Cassie Zachary
Earlier we kind of touched upon the global reach of Alice's influence. And I really love the instances when she pops up in rather unexpected, unexpected places. And I have been a. A long follower of Japanese street style or Harajuku style. I have my own cache of very early fruits magazines which I'm not giving up to any institution just quite yet, even though I have been asked. But I. I started subscribing from the US really kind of early ish on in the run, probably in like 1999 or 2000. They were kind of hard to get your hands on at that time. And until the two of you pointed this out out, I had never directly made this connection between Lolita style, which is part of Harajuku's style, and Alice. So, first of all, might one of you give us a little bit of the scoop on what is Lolita style and in what way have Lolita's paid homage to Alice?
- [43:41]
Lucy Clayton
It's funny because I probably, in that fancy dress story, just sounded really quintessentially kind of English eccentric, but. But actually, Alice's appeal as a fashion icon stretches way beyond these shores. And Ben and I also love Harajuku's style because it falls very much within our preferred sartorial space of elaborate dressing up. But that is almost like a whole podcast episode all of its own. And we did cover it kind of briefly as part of our Victoriana episode back in 2019. It was a Christmas special, and we traced the relationship between Queen Victoria as a kind of fashion influencer, if you like, through to modern incarnations of that aesthetic. And those connections are just fascinating. But to answer your question, how does Alice appear within Japanese street style? Well, she serves as an inspiration within the kawaii, or cute theme. So a kind of idealized girl, feminized, romantic, beautiful, naive looking, quite cartoony, very graphic. And if you think about Disney's Alice silhouette, that's a very Lolita shape with the hosiery and the apron. And it was obvious why it resonates with that style tribe. And the books themselves, of course, are full of characters or motifs that lend themselves to the kind of cute that's so popular in Japan. And there are plenty of Alice interpretations in anime and manga culture too, so. So much so that actually, when the British Museum did a manga show a couple of years ago, it was the biggest exhibition of manga ever outside Japan. And it was the white rabbit who was the first image you saw in that show?
- [45:14]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Well, someone who has thought and written at length about Alice's fashion influence is Professor Kira Vaclovich from Queen Mary, the University of London. Kira was deeply involved, along with Harriet, with the VA's curious and curious exhibition. So she seemed like the perfect person to grill about this sartorial issue. So within your work, you've analysed the shifting colours and details of Alice's dress. You've also written about her accessories too. So tell us, was Alice in Wonderland the original Alice band Wearer.
- [45:52]
Professor Kira Vaclovich
Ah. So no. Key aspects of what I refer to as the Alice look are nowhere to be seen in the first publication in the book, which launched our heroine. There's no blue. Indeed. There's no colour at all in what is a black and white book. And there's no mention of colour in the text either. There's no stripy stockings and there's no Alice band. It's only in the second book, through the Looking Glass and what Alice found there from 1871 that she acquires the stripy tights and the hair accessory that would eventually take her name in the uk, at least. In Looking Glass, Alice wears this kind of modified, more elaborate, fancier version of the Wonderland outfit with a slightly narrower silhouette. Those changes were made to keep Alice up to date. So she's had this really close relationship with fashion from the outset. What happens was, in the six years between Wonderland in 1865 and Looking Glass in 1871, Fashion for Girls became a lot fussier and flouncier and skirts had deflated quite considerably. Alice was supposed to be unremarkable in her appearance. She's supposed to sort of blend in rather than stand out. She's what we'd probably now refer to as relatable. And that's really important. And so to achieve that relatability, it was really important for these modifications to the Alice look to be made. So it's in Looking Glass, then, that Alice gets the Alice band. But the term itself doesn't emerge for some time afterwards, some 60 years, in fact. It's not till the 1930s that in the UK we started referring to Alice bands as Alice Burns. And it was all down to a rather wonderful Russian emigre, a real it girl of the day, moving in surrealist and high fashion circles, whose name was Lady Abdi. In a 1932 Vogue report, we get a mention of her wearing a blingy diamond band in her hair. And by the following year, Lady Abdi and Lee Miller are singing splashed across a four page editorial about this very style. It became internationally popular, the very first Alice fashion trend. And in Britain, where you didn't need to say Alice in Wonderland Band, but just Alice Band because people would know who you were talking about. The term stuck and is still used to this day.
- [48:44]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
For me, I think some of fashion's most memorable forays into Alice's world have originated across the pond in the United States, I'm thinking of Leibovitz's Vogue shoot and its cast of characters. So how did a very English story come to resonate so much overseas, for example, within the United States and even Japan.
- [49:06]
Professor Kira Vaclovich
I absolutely agree. And I think the Leibovitz shoot really does represent a defining moment in Alice fashion, establishing her absolutely incontrovertibly as a style icon. It serves as a summation of the fashion world and of Alice style at that particular point in time, just after the turn of the millennium. I think it's from 2003. You know, we might have expected that that would be the final word. So, so complete, so involving so many different designers and it's so opulent and so wonderful. But instead of that, instead of sort of being the final word, instead it's itself triggered and inspired countless other shoots, editorials and commissions over the last 18 years. And these are definitely not limited to the English speaking world. There's examples of editorials from all over the world, from Germany, Argentina, Korea, France. Alice fashion, I think, has always been a fairly transnational affair. The first Alice styles were in the United States. Some shoes were being sold with a connection to the Alice books. And there's an early reference to Queen Olga of Greece with her hair combed back a la Alice. I've already mentioned the Alice bands which became internationally popular in the 1930s. Alice has also, as you mentioned, come to be a huge reference point in the Lolita fashion, which originated in Japan, but which itself now has a global following. I think a lot of the international appeal of the books, from a fashion point of view, certainly in somewhere like Japan, is actually about their fusion to a particular national identity. So it's based on this perception of Alice in the books as being quintessentially English, quintessentially Victorian. Alice then comes to sort of sum up a lost world of rose gardens, tea parties, of cottages and cucumber frames. People across the globe want in on that, are attracted by and fascinated by that kind of vision. At the same time, though, there can be a much less sort of quaint interpretation of the books, something much more subversive, which stresses eccentricity, non conformity and rebellion. That's the kind of Vivienne Westward take on Alice, I think. But yes, fashion's love affair with Alice and her books is definitely international.
- [52:01]
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- [54:26]
Cassie Zachary
You know, I would argue that fantasy, or this fantasy world is a universe into its own in children's imaginations. And their imaginations see no international boundaries. Boundaries need not apply in that universe. And also it's that sort of nonsensical, lyrical nature of the book that really, really draws kids in. You know, it's this sort of breaking of the rules in the most delicious way. And it's this breaking of the rules which doesn't have consequences. Absolutely make believe. So for me, as a Kid, at least that was part of the draw.
- [55:05]
Lucy Clayton
That's really interesting because I think a lot of the readings of the book try to tie it very clearly to a kind of. To certainly to Lewis Carroll's Oxford, for example. And a lot of the sort of. The elaborate tea parties and the rituals, the sort of set pieces in the book are kind of. You can see where the inspiration came from in terms of kind of British culture and the sort of rigidity around that. But I think you're absolutely right. Those things, as for a child reading it, are totally irrelevant. Like, no kid cares about that. What they are reading is a transportation away from wherever. The kind of. The limitations of that starting point. So I find those readings quite boring when they're always clanging on about Oxford. You know, I think that's to be quite reductive. And I think you're right. There's a far more expansive version, which is that everyone can be Alice in their own reading of that story.
- [55:56]
Cassie Zachary
For sure. Lucy and Ben, I, for one, have really enjoyed this fashion odyssey through Wonderland. And I wonder, you know, ultimately, what do you think is so compelling about this story in particular? Decade after decade, we. We've talked about this big picture in terms of, like, what. Why has it appealed to audiences, but specifically, why have Alice and Friends continued to inspect, inspire fantastic and creative clothes?
- [56:25]
Dr. Benjamin Wilde
Well, I think, for me, the. The story is compelling both as a story, but also as an inspiration within fashion, because one of its central themes, possibly even its most central theme, is about identity. And I think that's just fundamental to how we conceive of dress and appearance. And if you think about it, you know, so many of the discussions in the text involve characters questioning each other about who they are, what they think, and why do they think, what they do. And all of this makes us reflect, however consciously, that so many of our values and behaviors are culturally contingent, you know, so consequently, I think for each new generation, Alice will mean something different. You know, right now, during the COVID 19 pandemic, as we wear face masks and come to terms with the physical, even psychological, isolation that that brings, questions about identity seem more pertinent than ever. And I think for me, this was very much encapsulated in Victor and Rolf's recent collection, where it was sort of grappling with the Pandemic. It was a collection that was themed around sort of change, and you saw kind of emojis being used, frowning and smiling, but conveying the conflict, confusion that the Pandemic has thrown up. As we're all questioning our identities. And I think it's interesting for me, in sort of prepping for this, for this episode, that rereading the exchange between Alice and the Caterpillar, you know, it really made me think about issues of identity. And in fact, it was almost. Almost chilling and spooky. How relevant this. This dialogue seemed, I don't know.
- [58:04]
Lucy Clayton
I think for me, as we've been exploring Alice and her friends in all her guises, I can't help but reflect that the reason she is so compelling and timeless a figure is because perhaps there just aren't that many female role models, certainly not in children's literature, who are truly inspiring. I mean, they're often portrayed as obedient or compliant or kind of ciphers for the plot or action elsewhere. But Alice is central. She's the heroine. She's the momentum behind the story. And she's obviously curious, but also fearless and emotionally intelligent and experimental and forthright. And she's physically, as a presence, very disruptive and ultimately triumphant. And so, of course, she's a fashion icon. Like, how could she be anything else? But I think that's because of the strength of her character rather than the strength of her clothes, because she embodies qualities that we still don't, I think, celebrate enough in women or qualities that are more often attributed to. To male protagonists. And I think, for me, had a really powerful moment when I was in the VA exhibition. There was a quotation on the wall, a huge type from the book, and it was next to this incredible. A massive Iris Van Herpen dress, installation of the Omniverse dress. And it reads, she had grown so large in the last few minutes that she wasn't a bit afraid of interrupting him. And that felt so modern and important. And I was there with my baby daughter. It's the first exhibition she's ever seen because she's like six months old. And she was mesmerized by this dress because all the moving parts. It was amazing. And I read that line and I looked at her and I thought, I never want you to be afraid of interrupting any man because I think so much of my experience and women's experiences of being talked over. And so for me, in that moment, I think I kind of realized that Alice remains as worthy a role model.
- [59:51]
Cassie Zachary
Today as she ever was, fashion and otherwise.
- [59:55]
Lucy Clayton
Exactly.
- [59:56]
Cassie Zachary
Thank you to you both so much for joining us. This was a delight and a treat. And also, too. How much longer is the exhibition at the Victoria and Albert Museum up?
- [60:08]
Lucy Clayton
It's on until Christmas, I think. So there's still plenty of time to see it if you're a listener in the uk, and I'm not sure whether they've announced whether it will travel or not, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
- [60:18]
Cassie Zachary
And there is a catalog that you can get your hands on as well. And again, it is called Curiouser and Curiouser. Thank you both so much.
- [60:26]
Lucy Clayton
Thank you for having us.
- [60:27]
Host/Interviewer
Thank you, Lucy and Ben, thank you for that little bit of wonder and fun. The tales of Alice's adventures have been inspiring minds young and old for more than 150 years, and unearthing the curious connections between the stories and high fashion has been really revelatory and I would.
- [60:47]
Cassie Zachary
Argue that it sparks joy. At least it does for me. I don't know about everyone else. I do think though that that does it for us. This week, Dress listeners, may you consider where the wonder lies in your wardrobe next time you get dressed. Thank you to Ben and Lucy as well as V and a curator Harriet Reid and Professor Kira Vak of the University of London for sharing their thoughts on the styling of Wonderland as as.
- [61:17]
Producer/Announcer
Well, please head over to RestorePodcast on Instagram or Dressed Podcast without the underscore.
- [61:25]
Cassie Zachary
On Facebook to check out the visual.
- [61:27]
Producer/Announcer
Content associated with each week's episodes.
- [61:29]
April Callahan
Remember, we love hearing from you dressed listeners, so if you'd like to write to us, you can do so@hello dresshistory.com Dresshistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And there you can also check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.
- [61:48]
Producer/Announcer
We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books so if you're interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our bookshop.org bookshelf so that address is bookshop.org shop dressed and there you will find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles.
- [62:09]
April Callahan
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- [62:34]
Producer/Announcer
Thank you as always for tuning in and more dressed coming your way soon. The History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.