← Dressed: The History of Fashion
Dressed: The History of Fashion
Fashion's Frontier: Denim, an interview with Emma McClendon (Dressed Classic)
00:43:56
Loading summary
Transcript117 lines
- [00:01]
April Callahan
Yeah, sure thing.
- [00:02]
Emma McClendon
Hey, you sold that car yet? Yeah, sold it to Carvana. Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy. The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency, no interest over 36 months. Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient.
- [00:21]
April Callahan
Just like that?
- [00:22]
Emma McClendon
Yeah. No hassle?
- [00:23]
Cassidy Zachary
None.
- [00:24]
Emma McClendon
That is super convenient. Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle for convenience. Pick up these May apply.
- [00:30]
Advertiser
You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday. How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job post seen on other job sites with Indeed sponsored jobs. Your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Don't wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com Arts. Just go to Indeed.com Arts right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.
- [01:25]
April Callahan
Please enjoy this episode from the Dressed Archive. We will be back with season eight and all new dress content in February 2025.
- [01:50]
Cassidy Zachary
With over seven billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day we we all get dressed.
- [01:56]
April Callahan
Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts.
- [02:05]
Cassidy Zachary
Cassidy Zachary and April Callahan Cass. I'm going to guess that more than one of our listeners today are going to have a real time, firsthand experience while listening to this episode. Because I bet many, many of you out there are wearing one of the most ubiquitous, ubiquitous garments on the planet. I am, of course speaking of jeans.
- [02:26]
April Callahan
Yes, and I am wearing jeans. As we record this podcast today, listeners, we bring you a much requested episode on the history of denim and jeans. Emma McClendon, who is the Associate Curator of Costume at the Museum at fit, joins us again. She was last season, but she's here today to talk about her fascinating work.
- [02:46]
Cassidy Zachary
On denim and debunk a possible myth or two about the origins of denim, in fact ones that we ourselves as fashion historians have subscribed to in the past. And it is such a gift that so many wonderful scholars from all around the world have agreed to join us on the show and to share their realms of research. I can honestly say that I have learned so, so much from our guests making the show the past two years.
- [03:10]
April Callahan
I wholeheartedly agree. And actually this brings up a point Dressed listeners, this is actually our final episode for season two of Dress. We are actually gonna take a much needed break for the holidays, but we will be back with a brand new season starting first week of February. And you know, we chose Denim as this topic as so many of you have asked for this, you know, so we kind of thought it would be perfect for our end of season two. But you know, don't worry, we'll be back in season for season three in February and just taking some much needed R and R for the holidays. So without further ado, the always infectious and talented Emma McClindon. Welcome to the show, Emma.
- [03:51]
Cassidy Zachary
Welcome back to the show. And I say welcome back because you were actually one of our very first guests on Dressed when we started nearly two years ago. You spoke to us about your exhibition that was up at the time at the museum at Fit Fashion and Physique. And honestly, that episode still remains to this day one of the episodes that we've gotten the most comments and feedback on.
- [04:12]
Emma McClendon
Oh, good.
- [04:13]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And I think you really made an impact with a lot of our listeners in terms of talking about the way that we have historically thought about our bodies and the legacy of that way of thinking that remains with us today. So thank you and welcome back.
- [04:26]
Emma McClendon
It's always a pleasure to be here. I love the podcast, listen to it myself. And it was just so fun coming in and speaking last time about all things the body. And so I'm just happy to come and talk about another avenue of research I've done on denim and all things jeans. And it'll be fun. Yeah.
- [04:45]
Cassidy Zachary
And this has actually been a much requested topic from our listeners. So I know this may be a very basic question for you, and I'm guessing that nearly all of our listeners own a denim garment, because as you know, in your book, denim is by far the most worn textile on the planet. But technically speaking, what is denim?
- [05:06]
Emma McClendon
You know, it's funny, in thinking about this question, it does seem so basic, what is denim? But actually, when I was doing research for the exhibition, I was surprised by how complicated that question got sort of this rabbit hole that kept going down because denim is a textile with a long history. And anybody who's familiar with textiles knows that technology plays a huge role, right? Fibers and how they're developed. And so textiles can evolve drastically, technically speaking, if you ask, you know, a real denim head den obsessed connoisseur they will say that denim is a warp face twill made out of cotton. So it's using a cotton thread for both the warp and the weft threads. And it's got the twill weave. So it's really kind of almost ribbed feeling, very structured, very sturdy. And it's warp faced, which means that the warp basically sits on top. And another requirement, typically for denim, is that the warp threads are blue often, and that they're not just blue, but they're dyed blue in a particular way, either through rope dyeing or long chain dyeing. And what that does is it creates a pattern in the threads of the textile itself so that the blue dye, because of the process of dipping the threads, taking them back out, dipping them again, you don't have the blue color seep all the way through the natural cotton fiber. Instead, it only seeps through just at the edges, leaving the core of the thread basically white or natural cotton color. And that's where we get the fade pattern on jeans, because those blue warp threads are sitting on top. It's a warp face twill. So they're sitting on top on the face of the denim. And then over time, as you brush your hands on the top of your pants, as you kind of get up, sit down, you know, pull things in and out of your pockets, you're slowly taking some of that blue dye off. And as it comes off, the core of the white thread in the middle gets exposed over and over in increasing patterns. So that's what people really think of when they think of denim. But when, as I was looking, you know, now you go into a store and there's stretch in denim, they're not all blue. They're not even all the same way, or even that warp face twill weave. But we still identify them as denim. And I would argue that they're not. Not denim. You know, it's showing how the textile has continued to stay relevant and pick up and incorporate different aspects of the times. When I was doing the show in the catalog, I actually sort of nerd alert equated this. We like nerd alert, equated this with Plutarch's paradox of Theseus ship. This is a story about how Theseus, you know, the famous hero of Greek mythology, how in Athens, they kept his ship as this sort of commemorative statue, monument to this hero, but that over time, you know, the planks wore out, the masts wore out. They had to, you know, bring in new replacement parts so that over time, the entire ship was replaced. Can that ship made entirely out of new component parts still be called Theseus's ship?
- [08:46]
Cassidy Zachary
Right.
- [08:47]
Emma McClendon
You know, it's a paradox. There's not necessarily a right or a wrong answer. And I just kept on feeling like that with denim, we replaced the threads, we changed the color, we replaced the weave. Is it still denim? And again, I don't think there's a right or a wrong answer. There's some connoisseurs out there who are gonna say, no, mm, that's not denim. But I would say that it is culturally and socially, it is denim.
- [09:10]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. Well, and there are also, I think, some other textiles that, that are denim esque that people identify as denim.
- [09:18]
Emma McClendon
Yes.
- [09:18]
Cassidy Zachary
Which are, which are not like chambray.
- [09:20]
Emma McClendon
Yes, Chambray is, is absolutely the classic example. You know, you'll go onto J. Crew or what have you and see a denim shirt, quote unquote. You know, it's basically a blue shirt, blue and white looking denim esque shirt. It's chambray. And the key difference between chambray and denim is that chambray is a plain weave textile and it's weaving blue and white threads together which give it that kind of denim look. But it doesn't have that double layered warp face twill that you really sort of recognize the denim surefire way most of the time. And again, this doesn't work all the time because of how denim, you know, multifaceted it is now. But usually a surefire way to see if something's sort of denim or something chambray is to flip it over, you know, turn it inside out. A true denim usually will be white on the inside of the pant leg. You know, that's why when you cuff a jean, right, you know, you see that different color, and that's because the weft is sitting on the bottom and the warp is sitting on the top. So you have those two different colors. But with a chambray, it's just a plain weave. You know, you're just weaving those two fibers together and it's going to look the same on the top and the bottom.
- [10:34]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about the origin of denim, which also is not as straightforward as one might think. There, there are several different myths that kind of swirl around the origin of denim. What can you tell us about this?
- [10:49]
Emma McClendon
Well, so the most popular myth is that it's French and that the name denim comes from French de Nimes or of Nimes, Nimes being a city that's in the south of France. Now there's A lot of reasons to kind of doubt this, but it's thought that denim is most likely actually a British textile. One of the reasons being that the English were vital in developing technology in not just the weaving process, but also the spinning of threads and the spinning of cotton threads to make them strong enough to attach to a loom and to be the warp thread of a loom. You know, that requires a really durable fiber. And cotton for so long was actually quite weak as a fiber in these long threads. But anyway, the key thing is, is that they think that likely the British maybe gave the fabric a French sounding name to give it a certain je ne sais quoi on the market. But there's also, you know, a number of other myths about the name for Jean, you know, and how that comes from Italian and Genoa and the gene of east sailors and all of this. But again, what I found most interesting in my research was just how murky the origin story really is, that when you look at the histories that have been written and the research that has been done, people have manifests, import manifests into the US from the 18th century where you see both denim and jean listed. So it's clear that there hasn't always been such a strict definition of these fabrics and that really it was one of a family of durable workwear material. And there's the potential that what people were referring to as denim or as Jean in the 18th and the 17th century maybe would look very different than what we have today.
- [13:00]
Cassidy Zachary
Right. Well, you know, where or exactly when denim first emerged may never exactly be clear.
- [13:07]
Emma McClendon
Absolutely.
- [13:07]
Cassidy Zachary
We don't know. But what we definitely know is that by the 19th century, it was a very well respected textile, prized for its durability and strength, especially in the United States at this point. Can you speak about this relationship between denim work and quote, unquote, Americanness?
- [13:26]
Emma McClendon
Yeah, I mean, that's obviously American identity. Americanness is one of the things most associated with denim. And I don't think that that's bad or that that's wrong, but I think that there's a much more nuanced history to sort of denim and labor and America and American sociopolitical demographics. Because the reality is that when we think of denim, where we have this really romanticized view of the California gold rush prospector, you know, cowboys. Yeah, cowboys. The west and the great wide open plain and riding off on your horseback into the sunset. And it's not to say so much that that's not a part of this history, but it's more that the history Encompasses so much more. In, for example, in the museum at fit, in our collection, we have a woman's workwear jacket from the early 19th century that's made out of denim. And this would have been something that a woman would have worn probably when working in the fields, laboring out of doors. And when we talk about that in the 19th century, the reality is we're talking about slavery. So slaves were wearing denim as much as miners and prospectors were wearing denim. Also, even though we're thinking about it with predominantly white cowboys and that sort of Marlboro man image that has become such a sort of idol of American culture, we also have to realize that the Chinese immigrant workforce building the transcontinental railway were wearing denim, they were wearing jeans, they were wearing overalls. So, yes, part of the west, part of the expansion of the west, but maybe not the romantic, nostalgic view that was always picked up on. I think that there is a schism in a way between the lived American experience of Denham as it happened throughout history, and the view that we take of denim, the popular mythology of Denham, and its link to American ness that we have now. And it's important for us to kind of try to reconcile the two and sort of understand why they developed in the way that they did without erasing from the history the very real and hard working reality of denim's past in this country, sort of at all levels and across the country and, you know.
- [16:10]
Cassidy Zachary
Across races and ages in the context of Americanness. And also, I think you said the phrase legend of denim. I love that. What could possibly be more American than Hollywood.
- [16:21]
Emma McClendon
Yeah.
- [16:21]
Cassidy Zachary
Who contributed greatly to this legend of denim, and also an entire love affair with denim, especially in the 1950s.
- [16:30]
Emma McClendon
Yes.
- [16:31]
Cassidy Zachary
So not only in terms of western wear, because of course, western movies were very popular, but also that of the quote unquote, uniform of the bad boy heart. How has denim functioned historically as a symbol of rebellion at certain points in time?
- [16:46]
Emma McClendon
So what's interesting for me is that I don't actually see the figure of the rebel as being that distinct from the figure of the cowboy. They're very much related. It's just one is a Pre World War II and one is post war. But in many ways, when you look at them, they are both the lone individual man. One is the cowboy outlaw in the wild west railroad setting, and one is the member of the biker gang on his Harley. In both cases, they're wearing their Levi's 501s and their boots. On one hand, they're cowboy Boots, on the other hand, they're biker boots. They both have their animal hide jacket. One, it's a suede fringe jacket for the cowboy. And then you've got the perfecto jacket for the biker on his Harley. And then they both got their hats as well. You just swap the horse for the Harley. And they're so similar. And so I think that it is very much a product of the kind of broader culture in which they're introduced. You know, that sort of pre war there is this sort of romantic notion and a sort of general curiosity and cultural sort of embrace of this cowboy figure. Whereas after the war, you know, we culturally, there is a move towards a much more conservative outlook and a kind of coming home and wanting to protect and create a sort of Eden like suburb, right? And the cowboy lone sort of figure. But now, as the Harley riding biker gang member is an affront to that suburban ideal. And so jeans begin to represent this danger, right? This danger to this ideal environment and safety and everything that it entails. And so that's absolutely just so crucial. And then you have figures like Alfred Presley with his, you know, denim jeans and his hips swiveling and, you know, it's completely, you know, erotic and sexual and scary to that sort of suburban landscape. And then it gets really solidified even more by the counterculture movement of the hippies. Right. Once the hippies adopt the ripped, pre worn, embroidered denim jeans as their de facto uniform, jeans are completely cemented as a counterculture image. And since then, we've really seen almost every counterculture and subculture movement have their version of wearing denim.
- [19:38]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, we are going to take a short sponsor break, but when we come back, we're going to talk about the flip side from counterculture and we're going to talk about the world of designer denim. Today's episode is sponsored by ACORNS dress listeners. The new year is upon us. And with the annual refresh of our calendars, so too comes our personal list of New Year's resolutions. And if you're anything like me, every year that includes contributing more to my investment and savings accounts. But as the months go by and expenses arise and opportunities appear, I don't always meet my savings goals.
- [20:16]
April Callahan
Which is why we want to remind you about acorns. You've heard us mention acorns before because they make it easy to start automatically saving and investing so your money has a chance to grow for you, your kids and your retirement.
- [20:28]
Cassidy Zachary
You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that fits you and your money goals. You also don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you invest with the spare money you've got now. You can start with $5 or even just your spare change.
- [20:42]
April Callahan
Financial wellness is not impossible. Acorns gives you small, simple steps to get you and your money a chance to grow and keep you on track with your savings and investment goals. Head to acorns.com dressed or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today.
- [20:57]
Cassidy Zachary
Hate Non Client Endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier one compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors, LLC is an FCC Registered Investment Advisor. Feel Important disclosures@acorns.com Trust Menopause Perimenopause these can be some of the most uncomfortable phases of a woman's life. If you find yourself in either of these, well, Hormone Harmony is here for you. Hormone Harmony capsules contain science backed herbal extracts called Adaptogens. Now here's the beauty about Adaptogens. They help the body adapt to any stressors like chaotic hormonal changes that happen naturally throughout a woman's life.
- [21:31]
April Callahan
Happy Mammoth, the company that created Hormone Harmony, is dedicated to making women's lives easier. And that means means using only science backed ingredients that have been proven to work for women. They make no compromise when it comes to quality and it really shows.
- [21:46]
Cassidy Zachary
And get this Hormone Harmony isn't just for menopause. Any woman with symptoms of hormonal imbalances can take it. But it is perfect for those horrible menopause symptoms that put a woman's life on hold.
- [21:57]
April Callahan
And for a limited time you can get 15% off your entire first order at happy mammoth.com just use the code dressed at checkout that's happy mammoth.com and use the code dressed for 15% off today.
- [22:10]
Emma McClendon
Work takes up most of your time. That's why you should use stamps.com to save time with your mailing and shipping and have flexibility to focus on more important things. Stamps.com can handle all your mailing and shipping needs with rates up to 88% off. USPS and UPS add flexibility to your day with stamps.com go to stamps.com program to sign up for a special offer. No contract. CANCEL Anytime. That's stamps.com program.
- [22:44]
Cassidy Zachary
Welcome back Emma. Designer denim wasn't always a thing. Before there was designer denim, there were the big three. So for more than a century there were kind of only like a handful of major denim brands. Who were they and what also were their contributions to the popularity of jeans.
- [23:05]
Emma McClendon
So the most important historical companies are without a doubt Levi's. And also Lee, the sort of third in that trifecta is Wrangler. But actually Wrangler doesn't come onto the scene until the 30s and 40s. And it's really a product of the sort of cowboy Hollywood whole thing, but for the better part of a century, you know, Levi's first and then Lee were creating workwear out of denim. You know, that was. That was their thing. And that's all denim was before Hollywood and the cowboy movies come along. Denim is not romantic. It's not nostalgic. It is workwear, full stop. There's no other reason you would wear jeans other than you are working in a garage. You're a mechanic, you are a miner, you're a farmer, you know, you are doing hard labor, and you're wearing these things. And typically, also, these denim garments are protective layers that are meant to be worn over other day clothes, you know, jeans. Levi's in their first, what we now know as the 501, when it was first sort of patented in 1873, it was dubbed the waist overalls. They weren't called jeans, and it was because they were, you know, meant to. And they even had sort of suspender buttons on them because you were meant to buy them pretty big and wear them over your other clothes as a protective layer in the mines or what have you. And same with Lee. One of the earliest, most successful things that they did were these denim coveralls, which was essentially this, you know, what we think of as a boiler suit. And again, it was for mechanics. It was for people working on cars that get all of this kind of grease and oil and everything. And you have to realize cars are pretty new at this point in the early 20th century when it's first developed. And so, again, it's meant to be worn over a uniform by a chauffeur or worn over day clothes. So it's very protective. It is not designer, it's not cool, it's not rebellious. It is workwear, right? Full stop.
- [25:26]
Cassidy Zachary
Then we enter the 1970s, right?
- [25:29]
April Callahan
Yes.
- [25:29]
Cassidy Zachary
And this was a huge turning point for denim and specifically the jeans industry. Why? So.
- [25:36]
Emma McClendon
So, actually, I think the 1970s is when jeans go mainstream and denim becomes just everyday clothing, you know, and it's not just jeans, as you say, it's full suits. It's, you know, people get shoes made out of denim, People have bathing suits made out of. It's a whole thing. It's a denim moment. But leading up to that, it's really again, the counterculture movement and the hippies of the 1960s who bring jeans into the mainstream and bring jeans into the living rooms and into the stores around the country. A pivotal moment in this chronology is Woodstock, because Woodstock was televised. It was reported on, you know, images of the crowds that were at Woodstock. It was this cultural event and so many of the performers and also the concertgoers were wearing jeans. Now, you know, many of the performers and also many of the attendees were wearing very trendy jeans, you know, bold bell bottoms that had been bought at Army Navy secondhand stores, but also at, you know, things that have been acted upon and DIY and stitched and ripped and patched and all that. But then there were a whole bunch of people who were just wearing Levi's 501s, you know, and this was such a pivotal moment to the point that the following year, Levi's used an aerial shot of the crowd at Woodstock as an ad. And this was a tipping point into pushing the counterculture, the hippie movement into the mainstream. And the style of the hippies getting co opted by fashion. You know, it's important to note that denim clothing in general for the hippies was a tool of protest. It was a tool of resistance. They dressed in a particular way as a symbol of their political outlook and as a rebuke of the post war consumerism and the disposable culture and plastics and industrial military complex that they thought were kind of killing the environment and destroying culture, destroying the world. And then it's in this moment, as we get into the early seventies of the hippie movement going mainstream, where their distinctive look that they had created gets co opted in a sense by one of the very industries they're protesting against. So jeans explode across the market at every level. You have Yves Saint Laurent for his Rive Gauche line creating denim safari jackets. And you have full suits for men, leisure suits made in denim. And then of course you still have the jeans and you even have the big three, you know, the Levi's, the Lee, these companies that have been making workwear, trying to get in on the game. And they create bell bottoms and they create, you know, these sort of crazy psychedelic patterns. So it's a real tipping point.
- [28:49]
Cassidy Zachary
So in many ways these, these high fashion designer jeans were pretty much the antithesis of the denim workwear of the 19th century. This is not what we're talking about anymore. This is full on fashion system.
- [29:03]
Emma McClendon
Yes, absolutely.
- [29:04]
Cassidy Zachary
Run am Right, right. And jeans were not the only appearance that we see. Denim in high Fashion. There were some other early adopters. Claire McCardell comes to mind.
- [29:15]
April Callahan
Right?
- [29:15]
Emma McClendon
Absolutely.
- [29:16]
Cassidy Zachary
What is the place of denim in the context of that in this American ethos of, quote, unquote, American fashion, not American workwear.
- [29:24]
Emma McClendon
Right. So it is important to point out that beyond jeans, there's been a long sort of cross pollination between denim and workwear and fashion. And as you say, Claire McCardell is key also. Bonnie is another key person. Even couturier Elsa Schiaparelli kind of dabbled in this aesthetic using chambray. What is, you know, barring the Schiaparelli example, which I think was more sort of surrealist and sort of putting opposing, you know, juxtaposition side by side with McCardell. You know, she looked to denim for its durability and for its workwear when she created her popover dress in the 1940s, and she was unveiling it during World War II as this. This practical garment for the fashionable housewife to wear now that she was forced to do her own chores around the house. Because during the war, the Rosie the Riveter figures, the women who went and worked as part of the war effort were by and large from the service sector. So now you had these socialite figures who, heaven forfend had help anymore. Yes, they didn't have help anymore. They had to scrub their own bathroom. And, you know, they couldn't wear their couture while they did that. So again, McCardell is creating her popover dress. So you even have in the name, it's this sort of wrap style, but it's popover. You're meant to put it over as this protective barrier over your other clothing. And it had an oven mitt that matched that it came complete with. And Bonnie Cashin also dabbles with denim, you know, but with both of these, what Bonnie Cashin's doing is she's creating a beach ensemble out of denim. And there's this whole genre of quote unquote, play clothes that are coming out in the interwar period and into the 50s, where it's clothes for sort of leisure time when you're going to the beach, going for a cookout, when you're maybe in the garden. And denim was very popular. Denim and chambray were very popular in that genre. So what we see with both of these instances, it's the popover and the play clothes, is this notion of occasional dressing. And so denim was okay and even fashionable as a form for a particular type of situation. You're cleaning, right? You're going to the beach, but you're not going to wear this to the office. You're not going to wear this out on the streets in the city. You're not going to. This isn't fashionable dressing, everyday wear. That's what happens in the 70s. That's the tipping point. And so now again we see dresses, suits, all these things and the jeans, but now you can wear them anywhere and it's a huge, huge moment. And of course, by the end of the 70s, this gets really solidified with figures like Gloria Vanderbilt, of course, and Calvin Klein.
- [32:16]
Cassidy Zachary
Jordash.
- [32:17]
Emma McClendon
And Jordash coming in with the stiff, dark, high rise, very sleek. This isn't your hippie denim. This is sleek and stiff and chic, high end and tight and tight sexy denim. Right. And again, it ushers in this notion of it's not just every day now, now it's really aspirational.
- [32:45]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. Cut to today and there are some serious aspirational denim.
- [32:52]
Emma McClendon
Oh yes.
- [32:53]
Cassidy Zachary
Out there on the market. On last week's episode, I interviewed Dana Thomas and we mentioned just really briefly, this quote unquote cult of denim. And we talked about how just like their self professed sneaker heads are also self professed denim heads.
- [33:07]
Emma McClendon
Yes.
- [33:07]
Cassidy Zachary
Can you tell us a little bit about the contemporary artisanal denim scene and what are some of the techniques that we are seeing being used? And also, I guess my last question was like, what are some of the price points that some of this rare artisanal denim can command?
- [33:28]
Emma McClendon
Yeah, I mean the, the denim head culture is a rabbit hole in the sense that it's very narrow vocabulary of products that you're looking at, but it goes deep in terms of how many companies, once you sort of start like pulling. Yeah. You just realize how, how big this subculture is, you know, and how obsessive it is, you know, and there are brands that don't have huge wide distribution but have cult like followings. This is something that really started in Japan. So Japan, after World War II and during the Korean War a lot of GIs, you know, and Army, US army troops were based there and they would bring their jeans and you know, because of the popularization of Hollywood and all these kind of culture sources, jeans were unobtainable there. They weren't being sold. And so GIs would sell their used jeans to this up priced market in Japan. And that really kind of continued through a secondhand market. But then eventually getting into the late 70s, into the 80s, Japan starts to see a rise in domestic denim companies that are all about trying to recreate this quote unquote, authentic historical denim of the Levi's 501s and the Lee Riders and all this stuff. And they're doing it down to the kind of twist of the thread. They're taking apart vintage pairs of Levi's, copying their patterns, copying them down to the stitch work. For the exhibition I did, actually, a few years ago, we acquired a piece from one of these nascent labels called Studio d'artisan. And it was a pretty much direct copy of a World War I era pair of Levi's 501s. And what I found most fascinating about it was that the double arch stitch work on the back pocket, it's called the arcuate in the denim head kind of world, was actually not stitched. It looked like it. When you got up close, you realized that the stitch marks had been painted on.
- [35:48]
April Callahan
Why?
- [35:49]
Emma McClendon
With yellow, you know, kind of gold paint. And it's because During World War I there was rationing and you couldn't use extra thread. You couldn't, you weren't allowed to use thread for decorative elements. But Levi's was so dedicated, you know, Levi's is just a fascinating company, but Levi's was so dedicated to its branding and its logo that it decided, how would that we're gonna paint it, you know, we're gonna paint that double arch stitching. And so this Japanese company is reproducing it down to the painting. So eventually this reaches beyond Japan, you know, American companies, Scandinavian companies start to crop up. Nudie jeans is a big label in here. And one thing that starts to happen in this market is also the idea of raw denim, which is another kind of subset of this obsessive connoisseur culture, which is raw denim basically means denim that has come kind of straight off the loom and is made into pants, into jeans, as opposed to denim that has been stonewashed or pre washed. And now we hear stonewash. And we immediately think of like terrible 80s jeans that are acid washed and crazy looking. But the reality is almost every pair of jeans you're ever going to buy in a store are stonewashed. All it means is that they're washed in industrial size washing machines with little pumice stones. And based on the amount of wear and tear, how soft you want the jeans, you will go through however many cycles the stones will be, however big. There's a whole again, rabbit hole subculture of these wash houses out in LA all around the world that it's these, it's the science really of how they get These different effects. But raw denim is so stiff, it's so hard, people will go and get it, and they don't really know what they're getting into. And they put it on, and they're like, oh, my God, this is so uncomfortable. And it's like, yeah, this was workwear. Yeah, this is how it was. It was designed to be a protective layer. Yeah, you have to break it in. But labels like nudie jeans, they were key in thinking about this raw denim movement. So you go and you get it. And the idea here is, again, about authenticity. Right. This is the real denim. And again, I would say. I would problematize that to say there's all different ways of looking at what's real or authentic. But the notion is that you personalize it yourself. You wear it, and you wear it for a year without washing it. You know, if it starts to smell, you're supposed to put it in a freezer, all sorts of things. And then after you've worn it almost every day for a year, and you've really started to get broken down and feeling soft and worn for your body and for your body. Exactly. Then you wash it. And it's at that point that that first layer of the blue dye really comes off in the wash. And all of a sudden, you get those wear patterns that we're so used to seeing on. Jeans reveal themselves. And there are examples. You can look these up online. There's crazy examples of a guy, you know, a guy who kept his iPhone in the same pocke every day, and you'll see the outline, and you'll see where his knees are. You'll see, you know, the. The whisker marks is what it's called, the sort of horizontal wear pattern that comes. That emanates out from the fly. That's called whiskering, and that's from sitting. You know, sitting and your pants pucker. So there's all these things that will give a sense to the body. So there is this interesting dichotomy in jeans, where, on the one hand, they're one of, if not the most homogenizing garment on the planet. As you said earlier, you can go into almost anybody's wardrobe and find a pair of jeans. But on the flip side, they are also something that is highly conformable to your personal body. And this notion of having your favorite pair of jeans is often about these personalized marks, these signs of being lived in, the signs of a life cycle, of experience, of individuality that are why we love denim so much.
- [40:18]
Cassidy Zachary
Emma.
- [40:19]
Emma McClendon
Yes.
- [40:19]
Cassidy Zachary
Thank you. So much.
- [40:20]
Emma McClendon
Oh, yeah, no, it's my pleasure.
- [40:23]
Cassidy Zachary
I think you once again gave our listeners a lot to think about. And I think that the next time that they pull those jeans on.
- [40:30]
Emma McClendon
I know there's so much to talk about denim too, because I will also just, if it's okay, add just a close that with denim. You know, there is also the flip side to all this positive stuff, which is that denim, since it is such a huge market, since there are so many companies producing denim out there and so many people buying denim out there, it is a huge pollutant too, because, you know, as I was mentioning, these jeans even before they hit the store floor, are getting washed multiple times. Think about the water that that takes, the pollution that that causes. You're polluting the water because they're getting pumped full of chemicals and rocks and all sorts of stuff like that. Then you have individual laborers sort of shaving down the jeans with sandpaper, sandblasting.
- [41:18]
Cassidy Zachary
Dana and I talked about a little bit.
- [41:20]
Emma McClendon
Yeah. So it's just, you know, as with everything in the fashion industry, when we talk about process and industry and global reach, there is a double edged sword. So not to end on a sad note, you know, denim is great and I love denim, but it's something that I hope we all, just as consumers, get more educated about what's in our closet and where it comes from and how it's made and what the real impact is of it. Because denim is one of the most ubiquitous garments. And as one of the most ubiquitous garments, it also one of the most problematic. Right.
- [42:01]
Cassidy Zachary
It's gonna have a major impact no matter what.
- [42:03]
Emma McClendon
Major, major impact. So just keep those jeans.
- [42:07]
Cassidy Zachary
That's right.
- [42:08]
Emma McClendon
Keep em. Hold on to them. Keep mend.
- [42:11]
Cassidy Zachary
I have a pair in my drawer right now that are my current favorite and I think I've mended them like three times.
- [42:17]
Emma McClendon
Yeah, no, I mean it's.
- [42:18]
Cassidy Zachary
I just keep patching them up.
- [42:19]
Emma McClendon
Yeah. And I mean, jeans are also another space, you know, echoing stuff from the previous time I was on your show. Jeans are also one of the places that get talked about the most in terms of sizing and in terms of bodies and in terms of fit. And I do think that there is a side of this too, where the body that jeans were originally made for, this sort of male body, has led to problems in finding cuts of genes and in thinking about genes for a range of body types.
- [42:53]
Cassidy Zachary
Thank you so much for joining us again. You know, you know, I'm going to hit you up to come back and talk about your Power show at some point.
- [42:59]
Emma McClendon
Yes, absolutely. It would be my pleasure.
- [43:02]
Cassidy Zachary
Where can people find you if they are interested more about your work?
- [43:05]
Emma McClendon
Yeah, so I'm at the museum at fit. We've got a lot of content on our website and on our YouTube channels. We do a lot of public programming and we even did some stuff for denim that's on there if you want to kind of go and look in the past. And there's a digital version of the exhibition there. I'm also personally on Instagram, so you can follow me, maclendon. But otherwise, you know, I encourage you guys to come and check out the museum the next time you're in New York. Cause we're free and open to the public and always have something on view. Yep.
- [43:36]
Cassidy Zachary
Thank you so much.
- [43:37]
Emma McClendon
Yeah, you're welcome.
- [43:38]
April Callahan
Thank you so much for joining us again on Dressed Emma. You know, April, my husband is, as you know, very into small batch denim culture. I know both American and, and Japanese. So some of his favorite brands include Blue Blue, Japan and Japan Blue. Those are both small batch Japanese denim brands. But there's also a lot of American made brands such as Flint and Tinder, Imogene and Willie, bravestar, Gustin. These are all American made jeans. And it's. It's a pretty incredible commitment that he has with his denim. You know, he gets this brand new pair of dark blue, indigo dyed jeans. And over the process of six months to a year, he wears them in until they gradually fade into, you know, this kind of faded blue. And they actually become fitted to his body. So in order to not compromise the integrity of the indigo and the garment, he only washes his jeans like once every three to six months, if that.
- [44:38]
Cassidy Zachary
I know. And I love this idea of personalizing your jeans through the practice of wearing them. You know, jeans are a very haptic garment. This is my new favorite word, by the way. Haptic, meaning how something feels to the touch. And we all know when a pair of jeans feel great and when they also just really aren't working for your body, you know, and then breaking them in and creating the patterns of wear specific to your body, by the way that you move in them. I don't know. I find this a very romantic notion.
- [45:06]
April Callahan
It is very romantic. And Shawn looks quite good in his blue jeans. I'm gonna say that too.
- [45:12]
Cassidy Zachary
Speaking of romance.
- [45:15]
April Callahan
And while we're on the subject of denim, April, I wanted to actually tell you about this new, you know, kind of project I've been embarking on. And it's with upcycling My used denim, you know, I think we all kind of have this tendency to throw out things when they get holes in them or when they wear, you know, and especially, you know, if you're someone like me, like, the middle of my thighs wears out immediately. And you can have a seamstress fix that, but I have this, like whole batch of blue jeans that have just been sitting here waiting for a project. And so I literally cut them all up. April, and I wove them into rugs.
- [45:47]
Advertiser
Oh, fun.
- [45:48]
Cassidy Zachary
That's awesome. You'll have to post some photos.
- [45:51]
April Callahan
I will. And it's, you know, it's surprisingly simple, dress listeners, to make your own hand weaving loom. I literally, it's the one I use is just a piece of square wood and you just like wrap the twine around it and weave. So I'm having a blast repurposing my denim and I hope our listeners will too. And that actually, April, that does it for season two of dress.
- [46:12]
Cassidy Zachary
I can't believe it.
- [46:14]
April Callahan
Time flies, you know, And I just want to say, April Callahan, that I really appreciate you and I having done this for two seasons now and having known you for the past, gosh, nine years. This has been such a treat and a joy and I cannot wait.
- [46:29]
Cassidy Zachary
I love you too. I feel like for season three, yeah.
- [46:32]
April Callahan
You know, thank you for being my partner in all things fashion history.
- [46:36]
Cassidy Zachary
That's true. Yes. And may it continue on for many, many more years.
- [46:41]
April Callahan
Yes. So, dress listeners, may you consider the romance of denim and maybe even recycling upcycling your old denim into your wardrobe next time you get dressed. Dressed will be back with season eight and all brand new episodes in February of next year.
- [46:58]
Cassidy Zachary
But until then, remember, we love hearing from you. So if you would like to write to us, you can do so at hello, carlo@dressedhistory.com dressedhistory.com is also where of course, you can register for our tours, our trips, our new class, anything else that we have up, our finely tailored sleeves.
- [47:16]
April Callahan
That includes April's twice weekly in person fashion history tours of the Metropolitan Museum of Art as well as our brand new dress to school of fashion live online course, the 1950s Golden Age Haute Couture, which is now open for registration. Registration and we do have gift cards available for both April's tours and the class. So just send us an email@hellodressedhistory.com and also send us an email if you want to get on the first to know list for our New York City day tours coming your way in April 2025. And our Paris Fashion History Tours coming your way in June. Registration for both of these tours will open in January and we do expect them to sell out, so send us an email to get on those lists.
- [47:55]
Cassidy Zachary
Thank you as always for your continued support. Dressed will be coming back your way for Season 8 in early February. Dressed the History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.
- [48:09]
Emma McClendon
Wow. What's up? I just bought and financed a car through Carvana in minutes. You, the person who agonized four weeks.
- [48:17]
April Callahan
Over whether to paint your walls eggshell.
- [48:18]
Emma McClendon
Or off white, bought and financed a car in minutes.
- [48:21]
Cassidy Zachary
They made it easy, transparent terms, customizable, down and monthly.
- [48:24]
Emma McClendon
Didn't even have to do any paperwork. Wow.
- [48:28]
Cassidy Zachary
Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet I sent you for our dinner options?
- [48:32]
Emma McClendon
Finance your car with Carvana and experience total control financing subject to credit approval.
- [48:39]
Advertiser
You just realized your business needed to hire someone yesterday? How can you find amazing candidates fast? Easy. Just use Indeed. Stop struggling to get your job posts seen on other job sites with Indeed sponsored jobs. Your post jumps to the top of the page for your relevant candidates so you can reach the people you want faster. According to Indeed data, Sponsored jobs posted directly on indeed have 45% more applications than non sponsored jobs. Don't wait any longer. Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed and listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit. To get your jobs more visibility@ Indeed.com Arts, just go to Indeed.com Arts right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need.