How to Read a Dress, an Interview with Lydia Edwards (Dressed Classic)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How to Read a Dress, an Interview with Lydia Edwards"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Dressed: The History of Fashion
• Host/Author: Dressed Media
• Description: With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common: every day, we all get dressed. Join fashion historians April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary in celebrating the who, what, when of why we wear throughout history and around the world.
• Episode: How to Read a Dress, an Interview with Lydia Edwards (Dressed Classic)
• Release Date: December 20, 2024

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1. Introduction

The episode opens with a brief, light-hearted exchange between hosts April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary, casually discussing personal topics before seamlessly transitioning into the main content. The introduction sets the stage for an engaging discussion about fashion history, emphasizing the universal act of dressing daily across the global population.

2. Guest Introduction: Lydia Edwards

[02:32]
Lydia Edwards: Introduces herself as the author of the acclaimed book How to Read a Dress: A Guide to Changing Fashion from the 16th to the 20th Century. She highlights the book’s success and its revised edition, which extends the analysis into the 21st century.

[03:07]
April Callahan: Welcomes Lydia Edwards back to the show, recalling her previous appearance where she discussed How to Read a Suit. Expresses excitement about Lydia teaching listeners how to read dresses in this episode.

3. Discussion on "How to Read a Dress"

[03:15]
Cassidy Zachary: Announces the focus on Lydia’s new book edition, which now covers up to the year 2020.

[03:51]
Lydia Edwards: Explains the concept behind her book, aiming to fill the gap in fashion literature by providing a guide similar to those available for painting and architecture. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the social, political, and cultural contexts that drive fashion changes. Lydia defines "reading a dress" as analyzing a garment from top to bottom, akin to interpreting a piece of art.

4. Analyzing Specific Dresses

a. Anne, Lady Pope with Her Children (1596)

[11:17]
Cassidy Zachary: Describes the portrait of Anne, Lady Pope, highlighting its significance in showcasing both fashion and personal elements such as fertility. She notes the absence of the traditional farthingale silhouette due to Anne’s pregnancy, providing a unique glimpse into dress construction sans undergarments.

[11:48]
April Callahan: Adds that the portrait depicts gendered children's clothing, reflecting historical practices where boys and girls dressed similarly yet with subtle distinctions.

[13:41]
Cassidy Zachary: Further elaborates on the depiction of children's dresses and the rite of passage where boys would eventually adopt trousers, contrasting with the dresses they initially wore.

b. Robe Volante (1730s)

[14:23]
Cassidy Zachary: Introduces the Robe Volante from the Metropolitan Museum of Art, illustrating the transitional style between the late 17th-century Mantua and the 18th-century robe à la Française. She discusses the garment's construction, including its unstructured silhouette and free-flowing pleats, and its role in the evolution of Western fashion.

[16:52]
Lydia Edwards: Expresses admiration for the dress, noting its importance in understanding the shift toward more defined silhouettes in the 18th century.

[16:52]
April Callahan: Highlights the book's organization, which places the Mantua before the Robe Volante and then the Robe à la Française, facilitating an easy understanding of fashion evolution.

c. The Cranberry Girl (1814)

[17:47]
Cassidy Zachary: Analyzes the 1814 illustration of the Cranberry Girl, emphasizing its representation of working-class women's clothing. She points out practical elements like the ankle-length skirt suitable for labor and suggests that fashion elements were adapted by all classes to varying degrees.

[20:06]
April Callahan: Discusses how this illustration challenges the notion that fashion was exclusive to the upper classes, underscoring the universal desire among women to dress fashionably regardless of social status.

d. 1826 Riding Habit

[21:46]
Cassidy Zachary: Delves into the 1826 riding habit from the Rijksmuseum, explaining its dual functionality as both everyday wear and practical attire for horseback riding. She highlights design elements that distinguish it from typical coats, such as the lack of a front opening and stiffened skirt for functionality.

[24:05]
April Callahan: Moves the discussion to the inclusivity of the book in featuring dresses from all societal classes, noting the rarity of surviving working-class garments.

e. 1880s Maternity Dress

[24:40]
Cassidy Zachary: Examines an 1880s maternity dress from the Antwerp's Mode Museum, highlighting its construction and modifications to accommodate pregnancy. She reflects on the social norms of the time, where maternity wear was not widely popularized and often led to alterations or reuse of garments post-pregnancy.

[26:46]
April Callahan: Comments on the historical context of maternity corsets, emphasizing their role in maintaining silhouette rather than restricting the body.

f. Circa 1900 Wool Morning Dress

[27:53]
April Callahan: Introduces the wool morning dress featured in Chapter 7 (1890-1916), praising its inclusion as a practical yet fashionable garment for a middle-class woman in mourning.

[28:14]
Cassidy Zachary: Details the dress’s use in mourning, its practical materials, and its place within the social customs of the time. She discusses the emotional narrative derived from the garment's preservation, suggesting it may indicate the wearer’s financial stability or personal circumstances.

g. Migrant Mother’s House Dress (1919-1939)

[35:05]
April Callahan: Shifts focus to the 1919-1939 photograph of a migrant mother wearing a simple cotton house dress, pointing out its significance despite its apparent simplicity.

[36:02]
Cassidy Zachary: Analyzes the dress as a reflection of both practical needs and the socio-economic hardships of the Great Depression. She draws parallels to elite garments, noting similarities in basic structures despite differing materials and decorations.

h. Ann Lowe’s 1966-67 Evening Dress

[38:32]
April Callahan: Introduces Ann Lowe’s exquisite 1966-67 silk flower-adorned evening dress from the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture, expressing personal admiration for its beauty.

[39:06]
Cassidy Zachary: Provides a comprehensive background on Ann Lowe, emphasizing her groundbreaking role as an African American fashion designer. She describes the dress’s intricate handmade flowers, balanced silhouette, and technical construction, highlighting Lowe’s ability to merge traditional elegance with contemporary trends.

i. Billy Porter’s Christian Siriano Tuxedo Dress (1980-2020)

[43:27]
Cassidy Zachary: Concludes the dress analysis with Billy Porter’s iconic Christian Siriano tuxedo gown, interpreting it as a symbol of the dress's evolution from a gendered to a genderless garment. She discusses its historical references, hybrid design elements, and the broader conversations it sparks about masculinity and fashion fluidity.

5. Conclusions and Future Directions in Dress

[46:27]
April Callahan: Shares her personal review of Lydia’s book, emphasizing its impact and the potential future of fashion moving towards de-gendered clothing. She acknowledges Billy Porter’s dress as a pivotal moment in fashion history that opens up discussions about non-binary and fluid expressions of style.

[47:20]
Cassidy Zachary and Lydia Edwards: Express gratitude and excitement for future seasons, emphasizing continuous exploration and education in fashion history.

6. Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with a call to action, encouraging listeners to engage with Lydia Edwards’ books, participate in upcoming tours, and take advantage of new educational offerings. The hosts reiterate their appreciation for Lydia’s contributions and tease forthcoming content for Season 8.

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Notable Quotes:

• [03:51] Lydia Edwards: "Reading a dress really involves analyzing a garment as an object from the top down. The way you'd look at a painting is similar to how you'd analyze art, recognizing different historical and design elements."

• [11:48] April Callahan: "The portrait shows gendered children's clothing, reflecting historical practices where boys and girls dressed similarly yet with subtle distinctions."

• [24:40] Cassidy Zachary: "The fact that this dress survived maybe suggests that she very sadly died in childbirth, or maybe she was wealthy enough not to have to recycle, or maybe she passed it on to a friend who was pregnant at the same time."

• [39:06] Cassidy Zachary: "Ann Lowe was a game changer. She was the first person of color, certainly the first African American to become a noted fashion designer, which was a massive achievement at the time."

• [43:27] Cassidy Zachary: "Billy Porter’s tuxedo gown is a poignant musing on the garment's potential to become a genderless, equalizing force in an increasingly non-binary society."

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Summary:

In this insightful episode of Dressed: The History of Fashion, hosts April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary engage in a comprehensive interview with fashion historian Lydia Edwards. The discussion centers around Edwards' revised edition of her seminal work, How to Read a Dress, which extends its analysis of women's fashion into the 21st century. Edwards elucidates her methodology for "reading" dresses, drawing parallels to art analysis, and emphasizes the importance of understanding the socio-cultural contexts that shape fashion evolution.

The conversation delves into specific historical garments, ranging from Anne, Lady Pope’s 1596 portrait to Billy Porter’s groundbreaking tuxedo gown. Edwards and the hosts explore how these dresses reflect broader societal changes, including shifts in gender norms, class distinctions, and the impact of global events like the Great Depression and World War II. Notably, the discussion highlights the universality of fashion aspirations across social strata and celebrates trailblazers like Ann Lowe, whose craftsmanship and innovation left an indelible mark on fashion history.

The episode concludes with reflections on the future of fashion, advocating for a move towards de-gendered clothing and celebrating milestones that challenge traditional gender norms. Listeners are encouraged to engage further with Edwards' work and participate in upcoming educational opportunities offered by Dressed Media.

Overall, this episode serves as a rich, engaging exploration of fashion history, offering both scholarly insights and relatable narratives that make the subject accessible to a broad audience.

Transcript

[April Callahan]

Yeah, sure thing. Hey, you sold that car yet? Yeah, sold it to Carvana.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy.

[April Callahan]

The guy who wanted to pay me.

[Cassidy Zachary]

In foreign currency, no interest over 36 months.

[April Callahan]

Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot.

[Cassidy Zachary]

It was so convenient.

[April Callahan]

Just like that? Yeah.

[Cassidy Zachary]

No hassle?

[Lydia Edwards]

None.

[Cassidy Zachary]

That is super convenient. Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle. For convenience, pick up. These may apply.

[April Callahan]

Please enjoy this episode from the Dressed Archive. We will be back with season 8 and all new dress content. In February 2025, there were 7 billion people in the world. We all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.

[Lydia Edwards]

Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast where we explore the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts.

[April Callahan]

April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary. April, I'm just curious, off the top of your head, if you had to pick one favorite dress. Yes, one favorite dress in the history of all of fashion, what comes to mind? And it can be an extant dress or one you've seen in a magazine or a portrait or a film.

[Lydia Edwards]

Cass, why are you so mean to me? That's incredibly hard. But I will say this. And I have shown you this dress on multiple occasions. I. If I had to pick just one. It's this Lucille dress, I think, from 1916, and it's very body conscious. It's draped on the bias and it's an evening gown, so it has a train in the back. It's very slinky and sexy. But one arm is fitted and the other one is this draped cape arm, and it's just simply fabulous. We have the original sketch for that dress in our collection at FIT Special Collections, and then also that we have fashion photographs of it in Les Modes. So that would be my top pick. What about you?

[April Callahan]

I know exactly what Jess, you're talking about. It's very ahead of its time, as are many of Lucille's designs from the 1910s. And no fashion historian should ever be made to choose just one favorite of anything. So I'm going to skip that question. I see how. Yeah, it's such a fun exercise in recognizing the power and significance of this very specific type of garment to what we do both as historians and lovers of fashion. Arguably, the field of fashion history is overwhelmed by people's continued fascination with the dress and its evolution over the centuries.

[Lydia Edwards]

And it is the significance of the dress, which is at the heart of Lydia Edwards's wildly successful 2017 book, how to Read a A Guide to Changing fashion from the 16th to the 20th century. And this book was so successful that just four short years later after its release, it's actually being published in a revised edition, which takes readers the way into the 21st century.

[April Callahan]

Listeners may remember that Lydia was already a guest on the show last season. She came on to discuss her book, how to Read A Suit. And we are so pleased to welcome her back to the show to now teach us how to read a dress.

[Lydia Edwards]

Lydia, it is a pleasure to welcome you back to Dressed.

[April Callahan]

Lydia, welcome back. It's so great to have you back with us on Dressed.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Thanks for having me. It's an absolute pleasure.

[April Callahan]

We are, of course, here to talk about your recently released book, How To Read A A Guide to Changing fashion from the 16th to the 21st cent. This is, of course, the new edition of your wildly successful 2017 Book of the same name. And I am so pleased because you're actually going to be giving us all some lessons on how to read historic dresses today. But before you do, I want to hear about how you came up with this fantastic concept to dedicate a book to, quote unquote, reading one very specific garment. And what do you mean by reading?

[Cassidy Zachary]

It all came out of wanting to produce a guide that would help people understand how and why fashion has changed. Because there are similar books that exist for painting and for architecture, but there's nothing really for fashion. And when you go around even the most beautifully arranged museum exhibit, there's often not space or time to really grasp why styles developed, how quickly, where they came from, what happened socially, politically, culturally, to bring those shifts about. Because obviously a museum, however big it is, doesn't have the space to always display such minute changes. And so I wanted to produce something people could take with them to a museum or they could use while they were watching a period drama. Or just anyone who's got any kind of interest in why we dress the way we do and how those shifts came about. Dresses really are my main research interest, so I knew I wanted to start my publication career by looking at dresses. And reading, I think, really involves analyzing a dress as an object from the top down. The way you'd look at a painting is similar as the way you'd analyze art and being able to recognise different elements. So different historical elements, different design elements, different artistic elements. And I guess read is probably the best word to use for that kind of approach because you're scanning and exploring an object whilst drawing on any previous knowledge and associations that you might have.

[April Callahan]

Yeah. And as you Said with. Especially with the period dramas. It's such an apt topic today. Probably it still was in 2017, but I know a lot of our listeners are reveling in shows like Outlander or Bridgerton, for instance. So it's such a fantastic resource for those sorts of watching experiences. But as you said, also museum going experiences.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Oh, thank you.

[April Callahan]

Yeah. So the time range for the first edition was from the 16th century to the 20th century, but this new edition actually extends into the 21st century. It ends with the year 2020. How did you come up with the original timeframe for the first book? And why did you change it for the second edition? And also what other changes, additions, might readers expect from this new edition?

[Cassidy Zachary]

I think with the first one, I was thinking by 1970, the idea of women only having the dress as a kind of daily primary clothing choice had really shifted. So I stuck to that as a sort of guide. Not that I didn't think there was anything important in terms of dresses afterwards, but just as a place to end the book. And because it has to end somewhere in the beginning. But because that shift had happened by the 70s, it doesn't mean that. Of course, since there haven't been any changes in perception in the way that men and women approach gendered clothing, and since I look primarily at Western dress in the book, I also wanted to think about the ways that Globalization since the 80s in particular has influenced what we'd see as Western dress and the ways that increased wardrobe options for women have changed the way they consume and wear dresses. So given the breadth of all the discussions we've seen, particularly in the last few years, about gendered clothing since the book was published, I really wanted also to explore that area. So those are the main key themes I've looked at. I think the only area. We did talk briefly about whether I should look at Covid. And then I thought, I think it's mainly in some ways too early to think about how that's impacted the dress specifically. We know that it's had an impact on casual clothing and the way people present themselves in a more kind of leisurely way. But yeah, we thought maybe leave that and perhaps maybe in future editions that could come in somewhere. But basically, yeah, there are lots more images, there's close ups of particular dresses, there's full page spreads at the end of each chapter, because I know that given the way the pages have to be laid out, there's a lot of information. And sometimes some of the images in the first edition were small and I wanted people to get a chance to see them in more detail. There are also more examples of working class dress. It's an area I'm really interested in and I feel is glossed over far too often because we have so few surviving examples. And I think it's funny because a lot of fashion historians start from art history, as I did, but many people I think that I've spoken to still seem sometimes a bit unsure about using images or particular types of images to read from. But I think it's a very transdisciplinary field and the ability to read from more than one source is really important. So I wanted to include more examples of portraits and engravings and those types of things to show how we can understand dress from those different perspectives. So I've also included several key dress types that either weren't considered or that initially it was felt there wasn't room for. So, morning dress, debutante dress, riding habits, that type of thing. So there's a bit more breadth in there as well.

[April Callahan]

Yeah. And I just wanna say congratulations on this new edition because I loved the first book and I absolutely love this new edition, especially the very last dress featured in the book, which is something we will talk about later on in this podcast. But it was such a welcome surprise. I think I, like, yelped out loud. I was so pleased. We'll talk about that. Also one of my favorite dress fashion history moments in history. So it was so great to see you here. Me too. So, a little teaser, dress listeners, you're just gonna have to wait until later in this interview, but. So we're going to start learning how to read dresses, but before we get into specifics, are there any basics or fundamental skills our listeners should know to start reading a dress to begin this learning process?

[Cassidy Zachary]

I think hopefully that's what the book will teach. So I'm hoping that people won't need to go into it with too much prior knowledge. But I would say that I really love the slow approach to seeing as promoted by Ingrid Maida with her Dress Detective book. That's an idea that's always very sensible. When analysing items of dress, don't rush in with too many preconceived notions about the age of the garment, the life of the wearer. Don't let the presentation of it sway you too much. As I said before, it's a question of scanning it from top to bottom really slowly, noting down any immediate aspects that strike you as important or unusual, and crucially, I think noting anything that the dress reminds you of, whether that's something in another collection, a film, costume, or even a contemporary piece of clothing. And I think this helps to narrow down the date and purpose of the item. And then, of course, the hope is that people will go away and do a bit of research and find out more in terms of what their own interests are.

[April Callahan]

Absolutely. And then you can be that annoying partner when you're watching a TV show or a film and saying, that's not historically accurate or that is historically accurate.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I am that annoying partner. My husband's always, oh, God, are you gonna actually shut up while we watch this?

[April Callahan]

My question, like, inevitably, is always, where's her chemise? Where is it? Or, yay, she's wearing a chemise. But I digress. So let's get to it, shall we? The dresses in this book are divided across 12 chapters. So beginning with chapter one, you cover the years 1550 to 1600, a period that our listeners will probably recognize as most famously being associated with the reign of Queen Elizabeth the First of England. You do teach us how to read a dress worn by the Queen in this section, but you also teach us how to read the dress of one of her contemporaries. Anne, Lady Pope with Her Children is the title of the painting that you analyzed, dating to 1596. So what made this portrait so exceptional and what can we learn from it?

[Cassidy Zachary]

Oh, I love this one on so many levels. And it's one that I was aware of, I've been aware of for a long time, and it's one of those examples as well. I can't understand why I didn't include it in the first one. It just got put to the side and then forgotten about, as happens sometimes. But I love it because it's really intriguing as a record and a celebration of Anne and her marriage, but also of her fertility. And I think although pregnancy was still something that was not always openly talked about or openly shown, there was still in Europe at this time.

[April Callahan]

Yeah.

[Cassidy Zachary]

A lot of interest in portraying pregnant women because childbirth was so risky and because it was such a kind of aim of any married woman to have lots of children. It was almost a source of pride to have a portrait of your family in which it showed your wife being pregnant because it showed your facility of both partners and the continuation of the line. And I think it's also really poignant because, as I said, the chance that she would die in childbirth was quite high. So it's a last portrait as well, potentially. And what I really love about it is it shows her wearing a dress without the big wheel. Farthingale that would usually create that fashionable silhouette. So we have the skirt just hanging down in these two sections, which you'd never see in pictures of that era. So it shows us what the skirt looks like without its supports underneath. And obviously this is done because she's pregnant and she couldn't have worn that. But it's just a really interesting way of looking at the dress and allows us to deconstruct that dress in a way that we aren't usually able to. Yeah. So it hangs down in a manner that's completely unseen in other elite portraits. But other aspects, it's very fashionable in terms of the bodice showing a similar width to men's doublets and worn with an open ruffle. And although I'm not looking at children's portraits specifically or children's dresses in this book, I do also love the fact that we get a glimpse at gendered children's clothing, too. How on first glance, it's very difficult to tell the boys and the girls apart. And then when we look at her little daughter, Jane, we can see that she's wearing pretty much a replica of her mum's dress. And that points her out as the girl. And the boys are still in dresses. But there are little aspects that point them out as being more masculine. But it's that kind of idea we have today of children being so gendered, which I think is even stronger at the moment than it has been, is something that is so new, really, and I'd love to do more about that at some point.

[April Callahan]

Yeah. And specifically dresslessness. She's talking about the fact that at first glance, it appears that the two boys are wearing dresses, because they are. And you teach everyone about the breaching coming of age ceremony when they would actually be breached and get their pants. So, yeah, it's a super interesting practice that we're not really familiar with today.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, exactly. I love it.

[April Callahan]

We're going to fast forward a little bit because, of course, we can't cover everything. Dress listeners are just going to have to get their hands on this book. So we're Moving to chapter three, which covers the years 1710 to 1790. You feature a wonderful extant garment from the collection of the Met, the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. And it's a 1730s Robe Volante. Please tell us about this dress.

[Cassidy Zachary]

This is another one of those dresses that I can't believe I didn't include in the first edition. And I was kicking myself not long after it first came out. And why didn't I put this in? Because it illustrates that really important transitional style between the late 17th century Mantua and the 18th century sack dress, or the robe a la Francais, which we're so familiar with. And this gown originated in the court of Louis xiv, who favoured really elaborate and restrictive dresses for women of his court. And this was his their way of asserting a bit of their own preference, particularly, of course, after he died in 1715. And although it's really well documented, there's a lot of imagery showing the robe volante. There are only a few surviving examples. And I love this one from the Met. I love the way it's been mounted and displayed because it so beautifully shows that kind of unstructured silhouette and free flowing pleats that would soon be so be stitched down and be much more constrained. But I think even though we look at it and see it as being much more of a leisurely loose garment, it was still worn over stays in the stomacher, showing how indispensable these items were. And what I love about it, from an analytical sort of reading point of view, is the way we can so clearly see how the Francaise was going to develop. In the book, there's a 1720s-30s example of an early sack dress next to it. And this shows how those loose folds seen on the volant gradually became tapered to the body, showing off the shape of the torso. And the separate cuff on the sleeves became broader and more distinctly pleated to accommodate the curve of the elbow. So I think those billowing pleats of the volant are perhaps most representative of the sack dress. And we can see in this example how well they help it live up to its name of volant, which means flying. And in just a few short years, they would become, as I said, so much narrower, stitched down about 3 inches below the neckline. And this allowed them to follow the curve of the back and be far more dictated by the developing fashionable silhouette, which we're so familiar with in the 18th century. So I think the dress shows a kind of early example of that leisured wear. But it also shows an absolutely classic silhouette in the making. And it's something we can. If you have volant in an early 18th century Robeaux La Francais and then an earlier Mantua before, you can literally see those changes for quite a relatively short period of time occurring. So I think it's one that I'm really happy I was able to include this time.

[Lydia Edwards]

Yeah.

[April Callahan]

And you just outlined how it's displayed or how it's organized. The book's organized. You have a Mantua in front of it, then you have the robe volante and then a robe a la francaise. So you're clearly showing readers the evolution of that garment in a really digestible way. So one of my favorite things about the breath of your book is that you incorporate dresses, as you mentioned earlier, worn by all classes of society. And this is despite the lack of extant working class garments in museum collections. We know, of course, that women, working class women wore these garments until these garments couldn't be worn anymore. So it's really rare that they survive. And an excellent example of the way you analyze working class garments is demonstrated by your reading of the clothing worn by the woman depicted in the 1814 illustration, the Cranberry Girl. So what does this illustration teach us about the clothing worn by working class women of this period?

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, well, this is again, one that I hadn't seen this image before I started searching for Regency working class dress. And there's not a great deal that's been written about it. Most of the stuff I could find was actually about history of farming and a history of cranberry picking. But looking at the garment, I think what it really shows is that although highly fashionable, high quality dresses were only worn by a tiny minority of people. That didn't mean that certain recognisable elements were completely denied to poorer women and that they wouldn't have striven to look as fashionable as they could, or at least as close to the contemporary silhouette. It hopefully highlights what most people would have worn in many respects, what she would have worn also for work. So that also demonstrates what most women would have worn because most women would have been doing some kind of employment. But it also raises sort of unanswerable questions, which I think is part of the fun. So one of the things I point out is that she's got this ankle length skirt on, which is obviously for practical reasons, picking cranberries, doing sort of hard physical work. She wouldn't wear a floor length skirt. But also at the time the image came out, in around 1814, we start to see ankle length skirts anyway in the popular fashion. So we wonder whether it's purely practical or whether there is an element as well of her adapting her dress in terms of what other people were wearing and what was fashionable. I would imagine it's possibly a bit of both. Someone of her background might well have owned a best dress that she wore to Churchill, that she wore for special occasions, and that might have shown some contemporary trends, and she would have had some idea of what was in fashion in terms of what was in fashion plates. If she lived in a village, there would probably be some kind of shop where she'd be able to get an idea of what was being worn. And there are also accessories in the image that were worn by women of all classes. So we have straw bonnets, feet, shoe neckerchiefs, fingerless mitts. And in terms of the basic structure, these were very similar to what elite women would have worn. But obviously very different materials, very different trimmings, which would really is what would show the wealth and status. So I think above all it demonstrates that universality of the Empire line and the efforts of all women to have it in their clothing, no matter how plainly that might be done.

[April Callahan]

Yeah. And it really challenges this kind of trope that fashion was just reserved for the middle and upper classes. Right. It really speaks to the fact that fashion and clothing is so much so central to our identities. Right. And to deny that women of all classes and all backgrounds would have not chosen to dress themselves in certain ways or not aspired to dress themselves in certain ways is denying their humanity in many senses. Right. Of course these women had. Of course, these women had aspirations to dress their bodies a certain way. And you find evidence of it in this kind of really unique reading, I would say, of this illustration that probably hasn't been read in this way before.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I don't think so. And I hope that it might still some people onto doing more of this. Because I just think it's really important that we don't view fashion in this very elite spectrum. And we're so familiar with doing that. It's come so naturally to us. But there's so much more out there we can look at.

[April Callahan]

Yeah. And. And doing it in these kind of new methodologies too. I think it's a really important step that you've demonstrated that hopefully more people will sit up and pay attention. So you of course feature ball gowns throughout the book. Everything from ball gowns to sportswear, which really demonstrates this wide range of occasion specific dresses women have worn throughout history. No more is this on view than in the 19th century when women of a certain class are changing so many times a day. But one example of occasion specific dresses are riding habits. And you have this wonderful 1826 or circa 1826 example from the Rijk Museum. So what do we learn from reading this dress?

[Cassidy Zachary]

This is a really lovely example of a garment worn both as a day dress and obviously for the express purpose of horse riding. So something very practical. And I was thinking about riding habits initially and then I Don't know. It's that ever evolving question of what a dress is, how we define a dress. And I think possibly because it's seen still by people as sportswear, because it's seen as it's not. Not a sort of single joined garment. I thought, well, I'd leave it until a later edition because it's a bit more complex. But what I like about it is that at first glance it might appear to be a sort of normal floor length pelisse coat which were often styled on similar lines with military inspired detailing. But when we look a bit at it a bit closer we can see is aspects like the lack of volume and stiffening in the skirt which was fashionable in the 1820s and its extra length kind of pooling around the feet show that it was made for an activity like riding. And when we look even closer, we can see there is no front opening to the skirt which rules it out as a coat. And along with most habits at this time, it was almost certainly two pieces, so a skirt and a jacket. And by this time as well. Another aspect that I love is that it would have been probably made by a female seamstress rather than a male tailor. Throughout the 18th century, male tailors provided this type of garment for women. And then we see this lovely shift in the 1820s and slightly before of female tailors essentially starting to come forward and make these more practical garments for women. So it's really nice that we've got this sort of feminine angle here as well. I also like the fact that it's not really how we would view. I think when we think of riding habits from the 19th century, we typically still first imagine like the late 19th century black two piece tailored with the apron skirt. And this is of course a precursor to that, but it draws much more on those 18th century redingote menswear influences. And I think because these were worn so often as traveling garments in their own right or as practical walking garments, it shows something with a lot more breadth and a lot more scope than the later 19th century example. And that green colour is part of that too. I think we always picture them being black, but they came in all range of colours earlier in the century and it's. Yeah, I just think it's a really nice example of what that might have looked like.

[April Callahan]

Absolutely. And speaking of range and breasts, can we talk about the maternity dress? 1880s maternity dress from the Antwerp's Mode Museum. Fashion museum. This has to be one of my favorite dresses in the book one because it is unexpected. I love that you have multiple references and examples of maternity fashion, because, again, this is one of those topics that's not really often talked about when you're talking about the history of fashion, necessarily. So it was such a treat to see it. So what does this teach us about 19th century maternity wear and both outer and undergarments?

[Cassidy Zachary]

I think the main thing it shows us is the fact that there wasn't anything close to what we think of as maternity wear today. Today, women are completely spoiled. You can get almost any style of garment adapted for being pregnant. And at the time, although most women would spend pretty much the majority of their adult lives pregnant or trying to become pregnant, and although bearing children was regarded as the main role of a wife, women weren't encouraged to be seen out and about whilst pregnant. So the fact that this dress was made for somebody who was in middle to late stages of pregnancy is also quite interesting. She's probably about, I'd say, at least six months looking at it. And her bump is unmissable. And it shows that she was unwilling to compromise on style. It's obviously a fashionable princess line design from around 1880, and it's been very practically modified, but it hasn't shift changed that silhouette, it hasn't covered it up. There's no kind of loose jacket over the top. It's very much out and proud. And I showed an example of how that would be achieved with the little picture of the gestation stays, which had front fastenings and adjustable hip gauze and openings for breastfeeding. And we don't know that this woman wore them, since many people still persisted with regular corsets, against medical advice. But you would hope that she would have worn something a bit more flexible underneath the dress. But what intrigues me most is the fact that this dress survived because so often if something was adapted for pregnancy, it would then be changed back afterwards or taken apart and remade in the next style after she was pregnant again. So the fact that it survived maybe suggests that she very sadly died in childbirth, or maybe she was wealthy enough not to have to recycle, or maybe she passed it on to a friend who was pregnant at the same time. We don't know. And that's one of the nice things, is that it raises all these questions and we produce a kind of narrative about who she was and why she wore this particular dress and what kind of encouraged her to. Yeah, to wear something that was still so closely based on fashionable styles, but accommodating to the situation she was in. I think there's A lot of unanswered questions there, but that's all part of the detective work of fashion, really.

[April Callahan]

Oh, absolutely. And you did such an incredible job. And I just want to go back a little bit to the gestation stays. I'm sure our dress listeners figured it out that this is a maternity corset you're talking about.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Maternity corset. Yeah.

[April Callahan]

Yeah. I think it's always shocking. Our listeners have certainly heard us talking about maternity corsets for a long time, but it's one of those things where you're just shocked and taken aback. I think for contemporary viewers of it, although I think it's important to say that it wasn't meant to hold a woman in or to, like, keep her pregnancy back. It was meant to maintain the outer silhouette of the clothing.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And then the fact that these were an option that not everyone took up, that some people tried to wear normal ones, is just unthinkable.

[April Callahan]

Yeah. And they just loosely laced them, Right. Yeah, yeah. Women weren't trying to torture themselves, I promise you.

[Cassidy Zachary]

But I think it's just that we need to remember it would have been so foreign for a woman not to wear a corset. It was such a normal part of her body and her life and how she saw herself, that it would have been probably quite scary to think about going without one. Unthinkable for a lot of people.

[April Callahan]

So, yeah, in many ways, as we would with, say, a bra today, just very different time.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah.

[April Callahan]

But super interesting thing to contemplate that we don't often get to talk about. So another new addition to this revised edition is the circa 1900 wool morning dress that you feature. It's one of the dresses Featured in Chapter 7, 1890-1916. Can you tell us about your decision to include this dress and what it can teach us?

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. This is one that I was lucky enough to be given. It was a museum de accession from a friend of mine in Pennsylvania. And I just think it's a really lovely example of a woman who, you know, is middle class, not particularly elite, but someone who lost her husband and would have, of course, needed to dress in the appropriate way. So it's very practical. It's a dress that she could have worn while doing almost any activity during the day, but it's in that first stage of mourning, so it shows the necessity of wearing all black for at least the first. I can never remember exactly how many months it was, but I think it was the first year by this point, maybe slightly less. And I've shown an image on the left side of the page, which depicts women in other stages. So after that point, you would move on to mauve or brown or other shades of purple or grey. Yeah. The fact that it's this textured woollen crepe also shows the status, because it was, again, very practical and very easy for her to wear. And I've also depicted a little bonnet, which is also one that was in my collection, that is very much modelled in a slightly earlier style. We don't know whether she, the particular owner of this dress, wore this bonnet, but it certainly corresponds with images of around this time of women in mourning wearing hats placed on the very back of the head. And in the early months, she would have worn a sort of a long veil over the front as well. But I've also got a little quote there that by 1907, people were saying that it wasn't considered necessarily any longer for a woman under 50 to wear a tiny little bonnet that just fits the head with its white ruching and strings tied under the chin. So by this point, that was going slightly out of fashion. And again, it makes us think, like with the maternity dress, I think anything like this, where the dress is made for. For a very specific life purpose, you can't help but develop these narratives in your mind. And I think these can sometimes detract from the analytical reading, but I think they're also, for many people, part of what makes analysing dress so tantalizing and exciting is that you do draw up these ideas in your head of who the wearer might have been, and that can all add to your own research and your own understanding of it. So anything like this, I think, yeah, that's emotional as well and poignant. It's something I wanted to try and include a bit more of so people could have that experience.

[April Callahan]

And I'm just curious for you personally, because this is something that's in your personal collection. Does that help or change your approach to analyzing it? Because you can actually. I don't know how often you go to the museum collections, obviously, and I think you started this book before COVID obviously. But I don't know if you often have a chance to go into these collections and look at the interior of the garments and handle these garments. So does the fact that you. You own this particular garment help you or bring perhaps a different perspective that you might not get with the other dresses?

[Cassidy Zachary]

Oh, yeah. It's. Obviously, we always say it's so important to go and see dresses and hold them and look at them. If you Can I think the fact that it's mine and I have spent so long looking at it and touching it and enjoying it, I think makes. Does make a big difference. It means that I'm very familiar with how it was constructed. And it's got this beautiful kind of left front opening with these all intact hook and eyes in the front, which seem to be original. The dress, I think from, I can deduce from that probably was worn for mourning and maybe not long after that because it's in very good condition. There's not a lot of wear around the hem, which you often see with dresses when they've been worn for a long time, of course. So I think it was obviously a dress that meant a lot to this woman. She wasn't a wealthy woman, but it's something that she put aside as a kind of memorial to that period and to her husband. So I think those are aspects that you won't get if you're just working from photographs. Whatever questions you can ask a museum, they don't always, of course, have time to look at something in detail and get back to you and talk to you about the condition. This is something I was really glad to be able to do. And I've been able to include a few more of my own in other parts of the book and in future books. I really want to do that as my collection has grown because obviously they're pieces you won't see anywhere else, but they're also ones that I can hopefully add a bit more insight to when I'm discussing them.

[April Callahan]

Yeah, absolutely. And I will say, though, technology today has made it really accessible in some ways. Like the Reich Museum has so much of their collection online and they. You can zoom, really zoom in a detail, but that doesn't always give you access to the interior of the garments and it's hidden secrets there.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And as we know, the interior is so important. As important as the outside.

[April Callahan]

Yeah, yeah. So much hiding in there.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lydia Edwards]

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[Lydia Edwards]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

Wow. What's up?

[Lydia Edwards]

I just bought and financed a car.

[April Callahan]

Through Carvana in minutes.

[Cassidy Zachary]

You, the person who agonized four weeks over whether to paint your walls eggshell or off white bought and financed a car in minutes.

[Lydia Edwards]

They made it easy, transparent terms, customizable, down and monthly. Didn't even have to do any paperwork.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Wow.

[Lydia Edwards]

Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet I sent you for our dinner options?

[Cassidy Zachary]

Finance your car with Carvana and experience total control financing subject to credit approval.

[April Callahan]

So as you've mentioned with this book and as we previously discussed with the our discussion of the 1814 Cranberry Girl illustration. Your book makes clear that fashion was not something exclusive to the wealthy of society. And jumping forward to the 20th century, you study the simple house dress worn by a migrant mother of 11 in a 191939 photograph. What can we learn from this deceptively simple cotton garment?

[Cassidy Zachary]

This image really got me because I we're all familiar with the Dorothea Lange migrant mother picture from the Great Depression. And I really wanted to try and find something that would show that period of history, but show the entire dress. And this image was from the Florida Memory Collection and really beautifully shows what this woman's wearing. And I think it demonstrates that as with the Cranberry Girl, at their core, elite and working class guys garments often shared more similarities than we might imagine. And women from all levels of society at this time might own a house dress. But as in the little sketch I include on that page, as you can see in that one, the more fashionable examples would often feature jaunty collars or little shaped pockets or impractical things that really made it more of a kind of just leisured, comfortable, fashionable option rather than an actual work dress. But the basic shape is something that a lot of women would have expected experience. So I think it's clear from looking at this that it might once have been a more ordinary standard dress, completely fine quality and construction. But of course, the circumstances that the family's in and what's happened in the Great Depression have meant that it's being worn to rags. So we see the irony of wearing a so called house dress when she lived in a shack where few traditional kind of wifely duties could be easily performed. And I really wanted to try and show dresses from a few traumatic sort of periods in history. I've also got later on a dress worn by a Jewish refugee who was in the Warsaw Ghetto in World War II. And I think these emphasize the power of clothing during these periods. Not to say that fashion was necessarily a priority, but I think that clothing holds many clues to somebody's situation and background. And in the case of the refugee, the fact that the dress was kept for so many years also illustrates its enduring value as a memorial as well. The fact that someone can look back at a garment and it can bring so many memories and so many associations back to them, and that people would travel through very difficult times and make sure they kept pieces of clothing I think is really poignant. So obviously this dress, the migrant mother dress, would have been worn to rags or probably cut up and used to make clothing for the children. So we don't know what happened to it. We don't have that luxury. But again, we can surmise based on other sad stories and we can use it as a kind of base to look at that era in a much broader way.

[April Callahan]

Absolutely. So you feature one of my absolute favorite dresses in the history of fashion in this new edition of your book, and that is Ann Lowe's Extra Exceptionally beautiful, Such an exquisite art of dressmaking, her 196667 silk flower adorned evening dress. It's in the collection of the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture. Who was Anne Lowe and what does this dress have to teach us about Anne's design, aesthetic and skill, but also the fashions of the period?

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, I chose this dress because I also love it. I'd always been aware of it, but until for some reason I hadn't, I didn't know so much about her and Lowe herself until after the previous book was published. And I just found out a lot more about her and I thought, yeah, I need to feature this woman because she was such a game changer. I think she made her name by catering to well known women from elite circles and as famously she made Jacqueline Kennedy's wedding dress. But she was still referred to as society's best kept secret. And she went by the time she died, she had not made a fortune through her designs. She went bankrupt as well. But she was an immense talent and she was the first person of color, certainly the first African American to become a sort of noted fashion designer, which at the time especially was a massive achievement and something that was pretty. I don't think there were many precursors to that. Not certainly not to the kind of level that she was. And although she hailed from a vastly different background and she was descended from slaves and from people that had of obviously very traumatic histories, she this sort of innate understanding of what her clients wanted. These people from very different worlds. And I love the phrase, I can't remember who said it, but someone pointed out that she fought injustice through her talent. And although she remained on the down low and she wasn't out talking about her work, there's one article from Ebony magazine I think from 1966 that's still one of the main contemporary discussions we have about her. She was sought out, sought after by people. Her name was known on the underground, as it were, and her achievements are remarkable for anyone, let alone a person of color who wasn't even able to study alongside her classmates when she was at College. And I think this particular dress, as you say, it's absolutely luxurious, luscious. Like those flat handmade flowers were her hallmark, and they just cascade down like they're growing out of the dress. And. And I think it also shows this amazing awareness of the latest trends. It's beautifully shaped to the body with this low back and the kind of empire line that were popular in the 60s. So she really managed to create something that conforms to what the young wearer of the dress, who I think was, yeah, she would have been late teens would have wanted. But she also maintained that sort of floor length skirt, which the parents would have appreciated. So around this time, we start to see debutante dresses with higher hems with more kind of choice. But she knew from the kind of background that this girl was from that she had to cater to what the parents wanted as well. So she kept it traditional. And yet it created something that would be incredibly exciting for this girl to wear. So another thing, we're talking about the interior of dresses, and I couldn't see the interior of this one, but we do know that the deceptively kind of simple shape conceals these really intricate couture construction methods. Lace lined seams and a built in slip and bra that maintain that silhouette. She wasn't only skilled at the exterior decoration, she was incredibly technically skilled at putting together something that would fit absolutely perfectly to the individual client. And yeah, I think she is such a rare talent and there's been a lot more written about her in the last little while, but I think there's still more we can uncover about Anne Lowe for sure.

[April Callahan]

Yeah. And so many other black dressmakers from throughout history that are just waiting for scholars to get into the archive and learn more about these incredible people. Because they're there. People just need to look for them. And dress listeners, we promised we were doing an AMLO episode, season five, because it's long overdue. All right, we are nearing the end of our conversation together. As promised earlier, we get to talk about one of my other all time favorite dresses in this book. Like I said, I squealed with delight. It was such a pleasure to see this as the last dress featured in the book's final chapter. So previously, you ended your book in 1970. This new chapter takes us from 1980 to 2020, ending with a dress that aptly reflects the dress's trajectory from a distinctively gendered to genderless garment. So please tell us about your wonderful decision to end the book with actor Billy Porter wearing a Christian Siriano tuxedo. Ball gown, hands down, the best and most welcome surprise of the revised edition.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I'm so glad. Yeah, I was so happy to end it with. I just thought, there is no way I cannot end this book about dresses by not featuring this wonderful man wearing a dress. Because this is where our conversations are going now. The future of the dress in terms of it being a gendered garment. And of course, this was the perfect opportunity. The dress ties into so many increasing discussions about how masculinity is expressed through fashion, what masculinity means, and obviously it links into really important conversations about androgyny and gender fluidity in dress, which we need to be having. And I'm delighted we are having with so much more frequency. But I think it also ties into something I've been thinking about recently, which is the question of whether the perfect dress for a man, whether that be a CIS man or a trans man, will ever exist, whether a dress will arrive that men feel comfortable wearing, whatever their kind of background, whatever their age, whatever, whatever their profession. And I think we're a way off that. But I think what Billy Porter managed to do was get these conversations started, whether they were positive or negative. He got the narrative out there in a way that I don't think any other celebrity really on the red carpet had managed to do before. And although his dress was elite, although it was created by a designer that not many people could afford, it opened up the floodgates, really. And what I love about his gown as well is that it self consciously references both male and female fashions and it creates a kind of effective, I guess, a hybrid of sorts. And this is subtly portrayed, I think, through the use of black, which has suggested somberness and respectability for men for at least a couple of hundred years. And more recently, it's synonymous with elegance and fashion for women from the 20th century onwards. So it also draws on a lot of historical references. The shape of the skirt kind of reminded me of mid-1860s crinolines with their fullness moving towards the back. And he's got underneath the tuxedo sort of bodice jacket. He wears this kind of high necked blouse with frilled cuffs which are reminiscent of 15th and 16th century women's wear and menswear. I really love the fact that there is so much in there that on first glance you don't see. Obviously there's the tuxedo reference and the ball gown reference, but there's a lot more going on. And the way he wore it was such confidence as well, was something that I think really caught people and made people think maybe this is something that men can aspire to, maybe not something quite as out there to start with. But it's really got the conversation going, as I said. And I think, I hope that by ending the book in this way, it leaves that discussion open. And I hope to make it clear this is really only the beginning of a very exciting new chapter in the history of the dress. I think if I come back in 10 years, who knows where we're gonna be? Like we might be looking at a very different landscape.

[April Callahan]

Absolutely. And I just have to say that I was asked to review your book. It was such an honor. And my review appears on the back of the book. I'm not. This was completely new. This is the first time I've ever done anything like this. So it was a huge honor for me. But the thing that I say in my review is that this book is such a potent reminder that not only can we all read a dress, but we can all wear one too. And I absolutely think that this is the future of fashion, moving beyond gendered fashion to de gender fashion. I think the dress still remains one of those gendered garments, but as Billie Porter and others are demonstrating, it certainly is not going to stay that way for long. So thank you so much for that.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Oh, thank you. And thanks for your beautiful review as well. I really appreciated that.

[April Callahan]

Lydia, thank you. This has been such a pleasure. I know our listeners are going to rush out to buy your books if they have not already. Thank you for joining us again on dress.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Thanks Cassidy, for having me.

[Lydia Edwards]

Lydia concludes her discussion of Billy Porter's Christian Siriano dress by writing that quote. Siriano's piece is a pertinent final offering in a book exploring the dress, being a poignant musing on the garment's potential to become a genderless equalizing force in an increasingly non binary society. End quote. And we are absolutely here for all of it, as our regular listeners know. And if you want to learn a little bit more about de gendered fashion, check out our two part interview with Alok Ved Menon from earlier this year.

[April Callahan]

And dress listeners go out and get a hand on Lydia's books. The revised edition of how to Read a Dress A Guide to Changing fashion from the 16th to the 21st century. And of course, how to Read a A guide to changing men's fashion from the 17th to the 20th century. That does it for us today. Dress listeners, may you contemplate the power the history of the dress dresses in your wardrobe. Next time you Get Dressed Dressed. We'll be back with season eight and all brand new episodes in February of next year.

[Lydia Edwards]

But until then, remember, we love hearing from you, so if you would like to write to us, you can do [e-mail] dressedhistory.com is also where of course you can register for our tours, our trips, our new class, anything else that we have up our finely tailored sleeves.

[April Callahan]

That includes April's twice weekly in person fashion History tours of the Metropolitan Museum of Art as well as our brand new Dress the School of Fashion Live online course the 1950s Golden Age Haute Couture, which is now open for registration. And we do have gift cards available for both April's tours and the class. So just send us an [e-mail] and also send us an email if you want to get on the first to know list for our New York City Day tours coming your way in April 2025 and our Paris Fashion History tours coming your way in June. Registration for both of these tours will open in January and we do expect them to sell out, so send us an email to get on those lists.

[Lydia Edwards]

Thank you as always for your continued support. Dressed will be coming back your way for Season 8 in early February. Dress the History of Fashion is a production of Dress Media.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Wow. What's up?

[Lydia Edwards]

I just bought and financed a car.

[April Callahan]

Through Carvana in minutes.

[Cassidy Zachary]

You, the person who agonized four weeks over whether to paint your walls eggshell or off white, bought and financed a car in minutes?

[Lydia Edwards]

They made it easy, transparent terms, customizable, down and monthly. Didn't even have to do any paperwork.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Wow.

[Lydia Edwards]

Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet I sent you for our dinner Options.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Finance your car with Carvana and experience total control financing subject to credit approval.