How to Read a Suit, an Interview with Lydia Edwards (Dressed Classic)

Summary

Podcast Title: Dressed: The History of Fashion
Episode: How to Read a Suit, an Interview with Lydia Edwards (Dressed Classic)
Release Date: December 18, 2024
Hosts: April Kel Callahan & Cassidy Zachary
Guest: Lydia Edwards

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Dressed: The History of Fashion, hosts April Kel Callahan and Cassidy Zachary engage in a comprehensive discussion with esteemed fashion historian Lydia Edwards. The conversation delves into Edwards' latest work, How to Read a Suit, which explores the evolution of men's suits from the 17th to the 20th century. Edwards brings her extensive knowledge and engaging insights to underscore the significance of the suit as a symbol of masculinity and social change.

Origins of the Suit: Charles II and 17th Century

Edwards traces the origins of the modern suit back to October 1666, crediting Samuel Pepys' diary for documenting King Charles II's introduction of the vest, coat, and breeches ensemble. This early suit was markedly different from today’s styles—quite draped and loose, yet consisting of three essential components: the vest, tunic, and breeches.

April Kel Callahan [11:24]: "This is perhaps the only example we have of a major garment, the suit, whose origin we can trace to a specific time and location."

The initial public reception saw influential figures like the Duke of York adopting the new fashion, signaling an effort by Charles II to democratize fashion and blur class distinctions.

18th Century Evolution: The Swan Song of the Male Peacock

The conversation progresses into the 18th century, described by Edwards as "the longest chapter in the book." This period witnessed significant transformations in suit design, reflecting broader societal shifts towards egalitarianism. Early suits featured wide, skirted silhouettes with multiple pleats, closely resembling women's fashions of the time. Over decades, suits became slimmer and more tailored, integrating elements like the slanted back coat front and embroidered waistcoats for the wealthy.

Lydia Edwards [06:23]: "The suit enhances elements of the male body that we traditionally see as being markers of that gender."

Edwards emphasizes the suit's role in leveling social barriers, allowing even the working class to adopt fashionable attire through accessible ready-made options.

The Dandy and 19th Century Standardization

Moving into the 19th century, Edwards introduces the figure of the dandy, epitomized by Beau Brummell. Unlike the 18th-century fops, dandies pursued immaculate tailoring without ostentation, favoring clean lines and impeccable fit. This era saw the rise of the frock coat and the sack suit, which became staples of the professional bourgeoisie.

April Kel Callahan [24:50]: "The frock coat was double-breasted, knee-length, and always made with a waist seam, making it identifiable in mid to late 19th-century images."

The Industrial Revolution played a pivotal role in democratizing fashion, standardizing suit designs, and introducing essential tools like the tape measure, which facilitated mass production and ready-to-wear clothing.

Early 20th Century: Sportswear and Ivy League Influence

Edwards discusses the early 20th century as a period of diversification in suit styles, influenced by the rise of leisure activities and academic institutions like the Ivy League. Sportswear elements began to permeate everyday menswear, leading to more relaxed and functional suit designs. The introduction of garments like the Oxford bag trousers exemplified this trend, blending functionality with style.

Lydia Edwards [34:28]: "There was an increasing acceptability of sports clothing worn as everyday wear outside of the physical act of cycling."

Mid-20th Century: Zoot Suits and Youth Subcultures

The episode highlights the zoot suit phenomenon of the 1940s, a style associated with minority groups and working-class youth. These exaggerated suits became symbols of rebellion and cultural identity, notably during the Zoot Suit Riots in 1943.

April Kel Callahan [41:18]: "The zoot suit became a powerful symbol of the disillusionment of the common people during the French Revolution."

Edwards connects the zoot suit to subsequent youth subcultures, including the Teddy Boys and Mods, who used fashion as a means of asserting distinct identities and challenging societal norms.

Late 20th Century: Designer Innovations and Modernization

Entering the late 20th century, Edwards explores the transformative impact of designers like Giorgio Armani and Japanese designers such as Kenzo. These designers redefined the suit by introducing unstructured lines, diverse fabrics, and culturally infused elements. The suit remained a versatile garment, adapting to contemporary tastes while retaining its classic structure.

April Kel Callahan [46:16]: "Designers like Kenzo brought new vibrancy into fashion, integrating elements of Japanese culture with modern suit design."

The introduction of slack suits and innovations like the Nehru jacket exemplified the suit's adaptability and its enduring relevance in fashion.

Conclusion: The Suit's Legacy and Future

Edwards concludes by reflecting on the suit's enduring legacy, noting that while it has undergone numerous transformations, its fundamental structure remains largely unchanged since the 19th century. She posits that the suit continues to evolve, hinting at future trends that may further redefine this iconic garment.

April Kel Callahan [48:14]: "The basic suit has not changed much in terms of cut since the 1860s and 70s, but expectations around it are still quite traditional."

The hosts and Edwards encourage listeners to consider the suit's historical journey the next time they dress, appreciating its role in reflecting and shaping societal values.

Notable Quotes

• April Kel Callahan [11:24]: "The suit was a great leveler in a much more profound way than the dress."
• Lydia Edwards [06:23]: "The suit enhances elements of the male body that we traditionally see as being markers of that gender."
• April Kel Callahan [24:50]: "Frock coats arose when ready-to-wear became part of consumerism, making them accessible across classes."
• April Kel Callahan [46:16]: "Japanese designers like Kenzo brought new vibrancy into fashion, integrating elements of Japanese culture with modern suit design."

Key Insights and Conclusions

• Democratization of Fashion: The suit played a significant role in breaking down class barriers, making fashionable attire accessible to a broader populace.

• Symbol of Masculinity: The evolution of the suit mirrors changing perceptions of masculinity, balancing between conformity and individual expression.

• Cultural Significance: Suits have been central to various cultural and social movements, serving as symbols of rebellion, professionalism, and identity.

• Enduring Legacy: Despite numerous stylistic changes, the core structure of the suit remains a staple in menswear, adaptable to contemporary trends and societal shifts.

Lydia Edwards' How to Read a Suit emerges as a vital resource for understanding the intricate history of men's fashion, providing readers with the tools to analyze and appreciate the suit's evolution across centuries.

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This summary encapsulates the essential discussions and insights from the episode, providing a cohesive narrative for listeners and enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[April Kel Callahan]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

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[Lydia Edwards]

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[April Kel Callahan]

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[Cassidy Zachary]

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[April Kel Callahan]

Wow. Mm. Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet.

[Lydia Edwards]

I sent you for our dinner? Options?

[April Kel Callahan]

Finance your car with Carvana and experience total control financing. Subject to credit approval.

[Lydia Edwards]

Please enjoy this episode from the Dressed Archive we will be back with season eight and all new dressed content in February 2025. The history of Fashion As a production of Dressed media With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast where we explore the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts, April Kel Callahan and Cassidy Zachary.

[Lydia Edwards]

April, Today we get to learn all about the evolution of one of the most ubiquitous fashion staples on the planet.

[Cassidy Zachary]

The male suit, and from one of our favorite fashion historians, Lydia Edwards. Lydia is a fellow fashion historian and author joining us all the way from Perth, Australia, and she lectures at the Academic Pathway Program at the Edith Cohen University and also teaches costume history at Western Australia Academy of Performing Arts. And her first book, how to Read a Dress, was published in 2017 to much acclaim. And she also has a fabulous Instagram account of the same name, how to Read a Dress. But her new book, the First One, has now been followed up with how to Read a Suit, a guide to Changing Men's fashion from the 17th to the 20th century. It was just released a couple months ago. Lydia, welcome to the show.

[Lydia Edwards]

Lydia, welcome to the show today. It's such a pleasure to have you with us.

[April Kel Callahan]

Thanks so much. I'm really excited.

[Lydia Edwards]

I guess I could also say tomorrow because you're actually calling me from the future. You're 15 hours ahead of me in Australia.

[April Kel Callahan]

Oh, I know. It's crazy, isn't it? The wonders of modern technology.

[Lydia Edwards]

And I am sure many of our listeners are already aware of your work. Your book how to Read a Dress where was published in 2017 to rave reviews. And you have a really popular Instagram account of the very same name, which is how you and I first e met or first communicated with one another. But I'm a huge fan of what you do and all your miserable Monday posts in that.

[April Kel Callahan]

Oh gosh, yeah, that's been interesting.

[Lydia Edwards]

Yeah, it's so fun. And listeners, you will have to check her out because it's just a really fun and informative Instagram. And of course, you're an incredibly gifted author. We're so lucky that you published how to Read a Dress and now how to Read a Suit, which is out now. It just was released in early February. And how to Read a Suit is a continuation of this same theme as how to Read a Dress. You are teaching readers how to quote, unquote, read and thus date and identify garments. So I'm really curious, how did you first conceive of this type of format for a book?

[April Kel Callahan]

It's an idea that I played with for a very long time before translating it into a book proposal, as sure is often the case. It's really born out of a couple of key things. And I think, firstly, the acknowledgement that we live in really uncertain times and nostalgia and that idea of an escape to the sartorial aesthetics of the past is really attractive to us in the 21st century. And I think this is also evidenced by the vintage fashion resurgence and more TV and film adaptations of Austen and Dickens, et cetera, than ever before. And of course, we've also got things like temporary dramas with a historical setting like Downton Abbey, which of course is huge popular. So audiences we know want to know more about costume. And this has been evidenced in the rising number of visitors to some of the biggest fashion museums in the world. But I found through talking to people, to students, and just reading blogs and commentary on period dramas, that audiences do find it hard to recognize the differences between clothes from different eras to any detailed degree. And I think this isn't always helped by TV and film adaptations that have interesting and creative but essentially inaccurate costumes. Things like the Tudors and Rain. And there's reasons for those costume choices, but I think people can find it confusing sometimes. And so being able to recognize those and to understand where they came from and to recognize whether or not they're accurate for the time period that's being portrayed is, I think, a really valuable skill for the layperson, but also for all of us who are interested in historic dress. And it really came home to me one day walking around a fashion museum exhibit, which was brilliant, really informative and substantial, but practically, of course, couldn't display entries of how each and every style developed to the next because there just isn't space. And I overheard two women moving from a sack gown from the 1760s to an early Empire line dress, and I heard them saying, but how did this massive skirt become such a slim dress? What happened in the middle. I don't get it. So my idea was to produce something that people could take with them round an exhibit and use it in order to understand how those changes occurred and why. And you could potentially use how to Read a Dress or how to Read a Suit when you're watching a period drama, too. If you are as nerdy as I am, it might be something you enjoyed.

[Lydia Edwards]

See, even as fashion historians, I find these books both incredibly helpful. There's really nothing out there that's quite like it. You really break down the each garment that you present down to the smallest of details. And in this way, you're really teaching the reader to read and thus date the suit. And someone like me, a fashion historian, who doesn't maybe have the most expertise in menswear. These books are incredibly helpful and revelatory in so many ways. You have so many fun tidbits and facts in there that we're going to get into here in a bit. I think it's important to clarify that in how to Read a Suit, you are specifically exploring the evolution of the European American suit fashions, and you're doing it from the 17th to the 20th centuries as they specifically relate to men. In the introduction, you speak about the suit as a symbol of masculinity, and I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit more about that.

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah. The word masculinity is really interesting in many ways, and I think particularly because across the centuries, it was women's dress that has usually taken elements of masculine dress and appropriated them. But this has rarely happened the other way around. So the idea of masculinity, very broadly could be applied to many types of clothing, really. But I think it's not since the 19th century in particular, that the suit has been seen as a man's province and ties into our modern ideas of what masculinity means. And those ideas have only been in place really since the 18th century, when the suit was relatively new. Before this time, those ideas could be quite different, and they didn't link that closely to clothing in many respects. I think we need to consider first that a suit is easier to move around in than a dress. It's more practical, which has always fitted in with the active and professional lives that are ascribed to men and to masculinity. And physically, in the same way as a dress does for a woman, a suit enhances elements of a male body that we traditionally see as being markers of that gender. Wide shoulders and chest, a slim waist in hips, ideally, and it gives men A sense of dominance, but it also makes them blend into a crowd and conform. And for many men, it's still the only acceptable professional uniform. Women, I think, now have a lot more choice in the workplace. So perhaps it's this limited choice that says quite a lot about how prescribed our notions of masculinity still are and how much conversely, that idea of fashion is seen still as a more feminine trait. And of course, that is slowly starting to change. But I think in reality, we've still got quite a long way to go. Go.

[Lydia Edwards]

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm glad you brought that up, because this idea that masculinity and femininity, and we talk about this a lot on the podcast across the past couple seasons, this idea that gender is a societal construct. So what it means to be masculine, what it means to be feminine can be defined by what we wear. And very strictly. I've given a couple different interviews about the history of menswear in relation to pants and women in pants in particular. And pants are really one of the most gendered garments in history, as is the skirt or the suit. Your book is really a testament to how that masculinity was defined, but also how it kind of changes and progresses through what men have worn historically. Again, such an incredible book.

[April Kel Callahan]

Funky.

[Lydia Edwards]

This is a huge feat of research. Can you tell us a bit about your source material and how you source material for this book? You have extant garments, fashion illustrations from the periods, paintings, photographs. How did you find your material and how did you pick what to put into the book?

[April Kel Callahan]

Oh, gosh, that was, as you can imagine, the hardest thing, because it's like a box of chocolates out there. There is so much stuff that you can choose from. And of course, as you'll know, you're limited by things like budget and copyright with certain images. And I came across so many that I couldn't use, and that was really sad. But there were also many that I could. And I found that as fabulous as paintings are, and I come from an art history background, I really love analyzing paintings and portraits and things, but they're not always reliable historical indicators of real clothing as we know. And I knew that I wanted to include as many examples of real suits as possible, as well as using photographs of them being worn in real situations on real bodies, because this just gives us so much more of an idea of how they were worn than when they're on a mannequin. It gives us an insight into the daily life of the wearer and of that. That space in time. And also as the Caterpillar dress. I wanted to utilize lesser known collections across the world, including museums in Australia and Sweden, and smaller collections in the U.S. particularly Shippensburg University. Big Shout out has got an amazing fashion archive. So I wanted that range and I wanted people to see things that hadn't been published before. I also needed a really broad range of suits, particularly in the 19th century, to demonstrate that although black and other dark colors were the prevailing norm, as we know, shapes on the surface also looked very similar. But there were many subtle and important changes is happening in menswear. And I felt that using variants such as wedding suits, for example, gives an idea of how those changes progressed and gives that element of intimacy that I feel is really important for any fashion discussion. It's really good to be able to use garments whose life we know something about, ones that have a narrative around them or a little story, because in this way, it becomes a remnant of a living, breathing, thinking person, and this side can often become lost. So that's something I really tried to emphasize when I was researching.

[Lydia Edwards]

And you do that incredibly well on your Instagram account as well. You really show across the economic spectrum, across the range, what real people were wearing as well as what the upper class, quote, unquote, fashionable people would have been wearing. So I really appreciated the book for that range as well. Your book is divided across seven chapters, beginning in 1666 and actually with a very specific month in 1666. So I'm hoping you can tell us all what happened in October of 1666.

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah, this is a great fashion history story, which is unique because this is perhaps the only example we have of a major garment, the suit, whose origin, or at least the first wearing, we can trace to a specific time and location. And we have Samuel Pepys to thank for this because in his diary he describes seeing Charles II dressed in, I quote, his vest, coat and legs ruffed with black ribbon like a pigeon's leg. And this initial incarnation was pretty far removed from what we perceive a suit to be today. It was fairly draped and loose around the body, but it was still made up of those three principal components, a vest, a tunic, and breeches. And Pepys mentions other men, including the Duke of York, stepping outside in the new fashion, which was obviously done in a very public way. Charles had said that he wanted to introduce this new suit of clothes in an effort to make fashion more equal across society. And it was obviously a very public airing when it was first produced. And then peeps, I think it was November 4th of that year. He also wore the vesting coat and was really a keen promoter of them. As with many new fashions, the suit went through several different iterations, including extremely wide petticoat breeches, which remained, of course, because they look like women's petticoats. But by the 1680s, we can start to see a garment that fits much more closely with what we recognize today, cut much closer to the body. It was worn with a shirt and a cravat and accessorized with a hat, a sword and heels, shoes. So we start to see that 18th century suit coming in in around the last 20 years or so of the 17th century.

[Lydia Edwards]

And a vest of this time would have had. It's not necessarily what we might think of as a vest today. Right. It was quite long, it could even have sleeves. But it's this idea that it's visible under this coat or jacket, right?

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah, exactly. In shape. It's, as you say, a really loose kind of baggy version of what we go on to see as the vestal waistcoat. And I think so many places that are given as its place of origin. Pepys describes it as being per, but there's also descriptions of it being from Hungary, from France. There's lots of different ideas going on. So it has a lot of influences. But yeah, in essence it's an early kind of version of the best.

[Lydia Edwards]

And for our listeners that don't know, I should clarify that Charles II was the English king who was restored to the throne only, I think, 10 years before he launched this new trend.

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah.

[Lydia Edwards]

So we're gonna keep evolving into the 18th century, where I'm hoping you can tell us about how the suit progresses in style into the 18th century is a period that you also call, quote, the swan song of the pre 20th century male peacock.

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah. The 18th century is the longest chapter in the book and you can see why because it provides this incredible kind of conveyant belt of changing styles and attitudes. It's really fabulous and there's so much to choose from. And we can see the precursor of the so called great male renunciation of the 19th century. We start out really with a very broad, wide skirted silhouette that reached to a peak in around 1720. And up to six pleats were inserted into either side of the centre back opening of a jacket. And this gave a massive flare to the hips that was sometimes exaggerated with wire or butt crib and really wasn't dissimilar to a woman's silhouette at the time. And women did point this out, that men were imitating them rather than the other way around. And aside from increasingly lavish ornamentation, it's a really good example of how feminine and masculine styles were more intertwined. In the early days of the suit, there was less difference between what men and women wore. And in the following couple of decades into the 18th century, previously baggy breeches, which sat really quite low on the hips and there was sort of very baggy rear to them, became a lot more slim fitting, a lot more close fitting. And coats as well, were shaped to the body with a very kind of sleek, slim, flat line that was seen in corresponding women's wear going into sort of 1770s. And it's really easy to date suits from the 1750s to 70s because we see the coat front becoming ever more slanted back towards the rear. And this showed off much more of the waistcoat, which was hugely embroidered if you were wealthy. And the breeches and held a man's shoulders back. And now, I think, moving on from then, this shape continues. But the influence of Anglomania around this time made a big difference in attitudes towards simplicity and dress. So that influence of English riding costume is a very, of course, very basic way of describing what was going on, English attitudes towards education. But in terms of men's dress, it was really to do with countryside inspired colours and fabrics. So brown and green wool started to overtake pink and purple silk and satins. And the last two decades were punctuated by other specific styles such as the macaroni, the fop, the sans culotte, the increable. And these were influenced by very different societal trends. But I think they all work to excel, accelerate men's clothing from being a peacock right up into the dandy, which came in the early 19th century.

[Lydia Edwards]

Right. And we are going to hear more about that after a brief sponsor break. Welcome back, dress listeners. So, Lydia, you write that the 18th century was, quote, the first uninterrupted hundred year span in which the suit as we know it today was worn by all men. And I love that when possible, and I mentioned this earlier, you write about what the everyday man would have worn at this time. Why is that narrative important to you and to the history of dress? You already talked about it a little bit.

[April Kel Callahan]

Oh, I think it's crucial and it's so important not to assume that styles change very quickly and that everyone, you know, would have worn a top hat, for example, or a bruffle skirt or whatever was going on. As we know, in reality, trends move much more slowly and most people would have seen very little change in their clothing during their lifetime. And I think this is something that's often lost in fashion history studies and museum exhibits. And it's understandable, probably, because upper class garments are genuinely more visually appealing. There's many more of them to exhibit and to go around. And working people's clothes would have been worn and remade until they fell apart. So they were still influenced as far as possible by fashionable trends, but not to anywhere near the same extent. And it's really difficult to find good examples of what they would have looked like for those obvious reasons. And in the book I've tried to show a diverse range. And the principal aim is of course, to illustrate the general changing shape of menswear. But it's important to remember the reality. So the suit, I think is really important in this respect, because more than the dress, it's a key example of egalitarianism and fashion. And from its creation in the second half of the 17th century, we can see that class barriers were slowly starting to break down a bit more. And this is evidenced in the way suits were made and worn. And I think this was also part of, of that proclamation that Charles II made that he wanted to have something that could be worn by all men. So on the face of it, a coat and breeches were generally not vastly different in terms of cut and fit. The distinction was seen in the quality of fabric, the closeness, the fit, the trimmings, the accessories, and of course, in the way that wearer carried himself at a time when men had dancing lessons and deportment lessons that they were wealthy. So that would make a big difference in the way the suit was perceived on particular bodies. But there's a section in the book where I've used two 17th century fashion plates alongside each other to demonstrate this. And one shows an orange seller and the other is a young man of fashion. And we can see that the orange seller is quite easily able to imitate elite clothing simply by using red bows tied in certain positions on his coat, having cuffs made in a particular color. So in this way, the suit was a great leveler in a much more profound way than the dress. And it was relatively easy for men to get hold of ready made jackets and breeches from peddlers and from some very early examples of ready made stalls and shops. And although, as I said, these wouldn't have been as beautifully cut as the upper class ones, and they would have been made to last in a different kind of way, it was something that men could aspire to and reach out to in a much more, much easier way than had been seen before. So the suit is really revolutionary, I think, in this respect.

[Lydia Edwards]

Yeah. And we are going to talk about that in a couple of questions. But before we do, while we're speaking about the everyday man, and before we get out of the 18th century, I really want you to talk about the suit of the sans culottes, who you mentioned earlier.

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah, the sans culotte is a really interesting figure because he was so politically significant, but in terms of fashion history, his influence has been somewhat overplayed, I think. And we know that, of course, the phrase sansculotte translates as without breeches. And this suggests a seismic shift in menswear, which had been dominated by breeches for over a century. And I think it's easy to grab onto this as a starting point for trousers, when in fact, it would be another couple of decades before they really took off for ordinary men and were universally accepted. So the sansculotte, he screamed comfort, really, with his loose trousers and his droopy cap and his smock like jacket. And of course, he was this incredibly powerful symbol of the disillusionment of the common people during the French Revolution. And because he was quite an outsider figure and a figure we don't necessarily see in other contexts throughout the 18th century, he's important and he's often brought up as a big influence. But I think in reality, the wearing of trousers is a much more complex and much longer story. So I think, although he's obviously important, I think it's for different reasons than are often cited. But he was ahead of his time, sartorially speaking, he was a portent of what was to come much later. So I had to include him for those reasons.

[Lydia Edwards]

Yeah. And we dress listeners, we've done an entire episode on the fashions of the French Revolution as well as the fashion of the post revolutionary youth subculture, the encreuables and mavilleuse, who are fabulous. But we really have yet to discuss in detail the emergence of the dandy figure in the early 19th century. So, Lydia, what is a dandy, what did he wear, and how did he influence fashion during this period?

[April Kel Callahan]

Okay, yeah, it's impossible to talk about 19th century without the dandy, because he was a figure that really set in stone that uniform that we have for men in the 19th century. And I think the word dandy is often used, used interchangeably with terms like fop, but this is slightly misguided because I think the assumption of the 18th century FOP is that he was vain to the point of foolishness. He admired garishness and glamour in fashion. Whereas, by contrast, the dandy essentially wore an immaculate version of late 18th century riding dress. So he'd have a morning coat, which was of course so called because men would typically ride in the morning, and breeches. And the name most associated with dandyism is Beau Brummell, regarded as the first dandy. And he had this idealized male silhouette which he achieved through exquisite fit with the addition of darts and padding to produce these uninterrupted lines and to really show off the best kind of elements of the ideal male physique. This could include having your calves padded as well, having your arms padded so it looked like you'd just been working out. It was a costume in many respects for the early dandies and certainly for him. And the dark coat and the light trousers that we associate with, with at least the first half of the 19th century was born out of Brummell's innovation, although it became standardised for him. I think dandyism was a state of mind. Cleanliness was hugely important and we can see this carry across into the rest of the century. So this was really, I think a good way to sum it up is to say it was an intense interest in masculine clothes, but without the need to be ostentatious. The devil was in the detail. You didn't need to have embroidery or trimming on a coat for it to be considered beautiful and beautifully cut. And as we saw in the 17th century, it was also a look that could be more easily taken up by other classes of society. And that's something I show in the book as well, of somebody cleaning stroops who's still wearing an example of a tail coat with gilt buttons. And obviously it's very raggedy and it's very down at heel, but it was something that was universally taken up. But I think that change in attitude towards clothing and the kind of idea that men could be interested in fashion but without it being what was now being seen as feminine. Frilly and pink and bright is something that Brommel was really responsible for.

[Lydia Edwards]

And this post revolutionary period, we see the emergence of full length trousers. Correct. Prior to this, prior to the revolution, we're wearing breeches which stopped just below the knee. You said the songs Culotte are wearing trousers, but perhaps not the ones that would actually influence fashion. When do full length pants really come into play? In the 19th century?

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah, of course, I should have mentioned this with the dandy, because Brummell did bring in trousers, although he didn't wear them exclusively. He did wear breeches too, but they really started to come in with him. And they first started with what were known as pantaloons, which were a very tight, clinging form of trouser, which dandies were particularly fond of because it showed off those leg muscles. But it really wasn't until come the later 1820s and into the 30s that trousers were a daily accepted staple for men.

[Lydia Edwards]

Interesting.

[April Kel Callahan]

It's later. I think we tend to think of it as being much earlier with the Regency dandy and the bow earlier on in the century. But it is a lot later. And that's why when I was talking about the San Culotte, I was careful to say that this wasn't the start of trousers. This was a kind of punctuation mark, an outlier, if you like. Yeah, it took a while to become ingrained.

[Lydia Edwards]

And so the 19th century is really when we see the suit, as you've mentioned, solidified almost as the. This uniform of masculinity. And you also mentioned this, what psychoanalyst John Flugel coined the great male renunciation. So that great male renunciation is basically underscored by this logic professed by Enlightenment thinking. It's during this period that the quote, unquote, rational sex, which are men, of course, abandoned his claim to be considered beautiful. And that's what Flugel wrote. And then he goes on. He henceforth aimed at being only useful. So in other words, fashion and its associated frivolities, its embellishments, were left to the irrational sex, to the feminine. So can you talk a little bit more about this transition and then how the Industrial Revolution helped to both democratize and standardize the suit across the economic spectrum?

[April Kel Callahan]

This is obviously hugely important in the 19th century. And I think it speaks to those subtleties of 19th century dress that I mentioned earlier, and indeed contradictions as well, because. Because although men's dress was definitely plainer, it was more uniform, it was more conservative, in this century, we can definitely see small splashes of color and innovations in cut that mirrored what was happening in far more elaborate womenswear. And I show one example of this in the book. It's a blue silk coat from the early 1830s with a slight volume at the sleeve head and a shaped nipped in waist and wide Cossack trousers that are heavily pleated at the front. And if you place this next to a woman's dress of the same era era, it's quite easy to see the similarities in silhouette. But into the 1840s, despite growing technological advances of the industrial revolution that made it easier to create more elaborate clothing on a grander scale. Clothing for men and women became much simpler, more severe. Most men wore a kale coat with trousers or pantaloons on a daily basis. And the only flash of color would usually be seen in a patterned waistcoat. So the introduction of the frock coat in the 1850s is really where we see the cementing of the professional bourgeoisie in society. And it was worn from then until the early 20th century. It became a staple of urban work and leisured wear and encouraged a more uniform regularity in menswear. And frock coats are identified by the fact that they were double breasted, they were knee length and always made with a waist seamless. So these are the three principal things to look out for and makes frock coats quite easy to identify.

[Lydia Edwards]

Thank you for that's one of my notes. It's like please explain a frock coat because no matter how many times I've seen them, I can never distinguish them. So that really helps. Thank you.

[April Kel Callahan]

Oh, believe me, it, it took me a while. It's. It is so there are so many different types of jackets and things out there. But the frocks, once you know what to look for, that waist seam, the knee length and the double breasted, they are, are everywhere in mid to late 19th century images. And they arose at around the time that an affordable ready to wear market became a normal part of consumerism. New machinery and labor saving techniques meant that men of nearly all classes could own one of these coats. And it was a style that was generally able to flatter most ages and body types. So it's a really important part in the history of men's dress. And I think it's interesting that at the same time as there was such an emphasis on the middle class and office workers, our what constituted professional dress? We see a great demand for clothing that catered to another side of professional life, which was time off. Now people had annual leave starting that kind of idea of taking holidays. And the 1860s introduced a game changer which was the sack, or later known as the lounge suit. And this needs to be mentioned because it was initially adopted for informal leisure wear, but it became acceptable much more broadly so for professional and city attire too. And by the end of the 1860s most men would have owned one of these sack suits. And it's basically the precursor to the modern business suit that we recognize today. So in contrast to the frock, it was usually single breasted. It didn't have a waist seam. We see the coat hanging straight down from the shoulders without breaking up the torso. And sometimes they were incredibly baggy and loose, and they look extremely comfy. So they were much easier and freer to wear. Men, in contrast to women, had a much easier time of it when it came to the sack suit. And they could be teamed with trousers of a different color or pattern, or they could. It could all be worn in the same fabric in the same. Was known as a set of dittos or ditto suits.

[Lydia Edwards]

I love that.

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah, that phrase that comes up so often, that's all it really meant was that it was a suit in the same color and made of the same fabric. And so this is popularized by people like Prince Albert, and variants were made for summer, winter sporting. And by the time the century ends, we can see quite a diverse spectrum of menswear and this kind of strikingly modern design making real waves in society.

[Lydia Edwards]

Yeah. And you really. In the 19th century, you're seeing the sack suit lay the foundation for what we, as you said, would know as the modern suit. So you see the first full button front shirts introduced, turn down collars. You see that finally, that cravat has kind of turned into what we would recognize as a long tie. It's pretty incredible to see that transition across the 19th century. Some of my favorite little tidbits that you threw in there, though, were the trouser press that was invented in the 1890s, and then the tape measure was a product of the 19th century. Never would have known.

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah. The tape measure was. It's. I cannot find this specific date where it's original, when it originally came about. We link it back to the dandy as well, because we know it originated roughly in sort of the 1820s, maybe a bit before. So it was certainly used when people like Brumwell were creating these remarkably pristinely tailored suits that fitted every angle of the body. It's hard to imagine how that could be done without a tape measure. But, of course, when it came to producing ready to wear clothes and clothes that could be purchased at department stores, of course, going into the 20th century, the tape measure became indispensable when it came to men's tailoring. So it's a really important item that I think, again, is glossed over sometimes and isn't mentioned, but it was a kind of underpinning, if you like, to making clothes accessible for men of all levels of society.

[Lydia Edwards]

Yeah. And ready to wear, of course, resulted in a lot of the standardization that we're all familiar with today. And the clothes that we wear but so we have the foundation for the modern suit. Of course, it's not entirely what we would recognize today. These collars were detachable and the cuffs could also be detachable so that you could could take them off and wash them. There were button flies, no zippers yet, and we are going to head into the 20th century. After a brief sponsor break, today's episode.

[Cassidy Zachary]

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[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah, sold it to Carvana. Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy, the guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency. No insurance interest over 36 months. Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient.

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[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah. No hassle? None.

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[Lydia Edwards]

Welcome back, dress listeners. We are now heading into the 20th century where we start to see more and more examples of leisure sportswear in men's attire. Lydia, can you please tell us about the ways that both sports and Ivy League style influenced the suit in the early 20th century?

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah, we have to go back to the sack suit for this because as I started to say, it paved the way for many variations on the leisure theme. And there was an increased emphasis on sports, as we know, for both sexes, which was a big part of this. And men as well as women had clothes that were slightly manipulated for cycling, golfing, walking, things like that. And travel also had a huge amount to do with it, especially since the rise of the railway in the early 19th century and increasing ease of travel into the 20th expanded this area even further. So differences in travel and these kind of slightly modified sports clothes were not so much in cut, but in a lack of lining. The fabric used the color and accessories because it was still important for men to appear smart and semi formal even when they were playing sport or traveling long distances. So those kind of rules of etiquette were still there. But I think the main thing to point out is that because of the popularity of these activities and the fact that more and more people had leisure time to spare, there was an increasing acceptability of sports clothing worn as everyday day wear outside of the physical act of cycling. So men could wear sweaters under a jacket or knickerbockers, or longer trousers made from different colors and patterns to the shirt. And even if they weren't playing sport, even if they were going to watch your friend play golf while they were going just to have a day in the country, you could have this mix and match going on and it was more acceptable. So this relaxation and lack of uniformity continued into 1910s and 20s. And I think by the time we get to the 20s, in part due to that static nature of the war years in terms of fashion, we see this explosion of youth culture amongst the wealthy and the influence of college style in the UK and us, which also had its roots in sportswear and in students wanting to spend their free time playing sports and make an easy transition from lecture hall to football field. And. And there was also a growing disregard, I think, for what generations had done before. And if we look at novels like Brideshead Revisited, there was a massive emphasis on beauty and youth before another war and the austerity of the 30s and 40s came along. So Oxford bags are trousers that are a good example of that. I love them, I love them. They're just one of those things you look at in fashion history and you're like, oh my God, how did that even happen? And they were, of course, because of that, very short lived. But they came to represent a decade. And they basically originated as a way for students at Oxford University in the UK to hide shorter sporting knickerbockers in the lecture hall, so you couldn't go into a lecture wearing them. And now, you know, I've got students that turn up wearing practically nothing. But of course, you had to dress in at least trousers and a sweater and a shirt and tie. So they would cover these knickerbockers with these huge Oxford bag trousers which completely covered them up. And then this meant that they would leave the lecture hall and get changed very quickly to go boating or whatever they were going to do. I think, of course, we need to remember that these trends were again, very much the province of the elite. And we can also think about the raccoon coat that originated at Princeton in the twenties.

[Lydia Edwards]

Oh, that is so fascinating. And sad, but fascinating because it's exactly what it sounds like, dresslessness. Oh, yes.

[April Kel Callahan]

There's no surprises there. Yeah. And now in our, obviously our culture of not being keen on fur, it's quite a shocking film. It really speaks to that elite group that went to university and shows that, of course, egalitarianism in education hadn't quite come about yet.

[Lydia Edwards]

It's just such a flashy garment. It was so unexpected and I'd never heard about it. It's this huge fur coat being worn by these young, generous gents at college.

[April Kel Callahan]

Absolutely. Absolutely enormous. Yeah. And hugely expensive, of course, as well. I think there were Variants made for the people to get. You could buy secondhand ones, but if you wanted the real thing, it wouldn't exactly be cheap. But the influence of these things, I think in this informality did spread more generally to the adoption of things like shirts with soft collars, blazers instead of a suit jacket, boater hats, that type of thing which could be worn across a wider strata of society.

[Lydia Edwards]

Yeah, and I love, by the way, learning origin stories of garments or garment related phrases and words. And your book is full of these revelations. You talked about the ditto suit. But one of my favorites is this. We have this standard in menswear to reveal a small amount of shirt cuff. I was just with my husband looking at a suit today and he's very specifically said, I only show a quarter shirt cuff at the base of the suit sleeve. Can you tell us about its original purpose, why that's there, as well as the origins of the term white collar worker versus versus blue collar worker?

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah, yeah. This is a really interesting. Yeah. Bit of social history, really. And it represents societal anxieties and demands. It's a double edged sword because clean white cuffs were an indication that you didn't do manual work. Because obviously if you were doing manual work, you couldn't keep white cuffs clean. But at the same time they were still detachable, which made for easy laundering. So this showed that a man was wealthy enough to wear white cuffs, but not wealthy enough to own multiple shirts.

[Lydia Edwards]

Shirts.

[April Kel Callahan]

And you have the same strategy being used for collars. So the term white collar worker consequently became used for any man who did like professional, administrative, maybe managerial work more in terms of society's eyes at the time was more respectable, more gentlemanly work. And blue collar worker means the opposite. Someone who does manual work. And this came from men wearing denim shirts and collars. I know you did a brilliant show on denim, which I listened to, and the fact that this is a very working class glass fabric in its origin, a material that could be easily cleaned, it disguised dirt, it was very long lasting. So we still use these terms, but that's where they came from initially. And the blue collar worker term, I think it came about more in the 1920s, so a bit later on.

[Lydia Edwards]

So fascinating. And I recently listened to the fabulous Dolly Parton's America podcast for any Dolly Parton fans out there. It's so good. But one of the scholars that was featured on there talked about the origins of the term redneck and it literally dates back to an actual wearing of red scarves around the neck of striking mine Workers in the early 20th century and they were looked down upon and called rednecks because of it.

[April Kel Callahan]

And so it's fascinating.

[Lydia Edwards]

Yeah, learning things like that. It's just, it's so incredibly fascinating, especially because you still hear these terms today. So the suit, as we mentioned, more or less achieved its modern features in the 19th century and early 20th centuries, but that did not mean variations on the theme were stagnant. Far from it actually. And of course, leave it to the rebellious youth to shake things up with their often subversive and controversial takes on the suit across the 20th century. So I'm hoping you can tell us a little bit about the zoot suit.

[April Kel Callahan]

Oh, I love zoot suits so much. I really love them. They're such a loud, odd out there, crazy trend, but they have a really complex and layered history that that's less outwardly frivolous and happy. They've come to be seen, I think, in relation to gangsters that are often used in traditional gangster films. And they have an air of glamour and exuberance, but they have really humble origins. The suit itself is an exaggerated version of that wide shouldered, double breasted, 40s style. And it coincided with the rise of jitterbug in dance and jazz halls, particularly in Harlem. And it became notorious following race fueled riots that took place in LA in June 1943. And these were known as the Zoot Suit riots because of the mass of young people wearing them. So because of this jacket and trousers were associated with minority groups, working class youth, and it did pave the way for other in your face styles that set the male teenager apart from the boy and the man. There are also very few original examples remaining, which makes them really fascinating and even more poignant. I think people obviously couldn't or wouldn't hang onto them. There are very few remaining for posterity.

[Lydia Edwards]

And the Zoot suit, of course, is just one example of one youth subculture's relationship to fashion. As the 20th century progresses, we see the emergence of the Teddy Boys and the Mods and we did a whole episode on them, all of whom, you know, these young men have these very specific relationships to the suit and building their distinctive identities. And I should say, of course, young men and women, because we had Teddy girls too, and Mod women. So we have the 1950s, which is this pretty conservative post war period, understandably. But then of course that unfolds and explodes, I should say, into the swinging 1960s. So how is this kind of standard, quote unquote masculine suit redefined during this era?

[April Kel Callahan]

I don't think actually possible to exaggerate the seismic shift of the 60s for men as well. Music was a cataclysmic influence. And I was really happy to be able to show a Beatles suit in the book because I'm a Beatles fan and it was nice to be able to write about that. And they especially were responsible for the ability of young men to move away, I think, from the legacies of their wartime fathers. And we see this with the Teddy Boys in the previous decade. They rode that first wave of youth culture and looked to their grandfathers at audience seats for inspiration. Their suits had a definite early 20th century twine, but were worn with very up to date rebelliousness and rejection of their parents generation. And I think I illustrate this in the book and go on to look at John Lennon's colorless gray suit, which was one of the first designs made famous by the band. And this is interesting because rather than promote rebelliousness, the suits were intended to endear the parents of fans by creating this clean image. And that seems to have been six successful. Yeah. But they were also taken up in many other ways later into the 60s. They highlighted non Western versions of the style. Particularly later in the decade when the Beatles traveled to India, they helped to promote flower power in the hippie movement. And the Nehru jacket, of course, is a symbol that came out of that too, worn by the first prime minister of India. So this spoke to the spirit of protest and inclusivity that underpins a lot of 60s culture. So we get that color style really morphing quite nicely into the Nehru style later in the decade. And although bands like the Beatles didn't wear suits for the entirety of their career, I think those suits were a way of men being able to experiment with different cuts and styles with very new slimline suits, which were a move away from what men had been wearing in the 40s, what their dads had been wearing before them. So they were easy to wear, they were relatively cheap to procure, they could be made of quite a wider range of different textures and colors. So there wasn't just the gray that had predominated in the 50s. So although this was seen as a generation of the peacock male and casual clothing was huge, we can see that the influence of the suit had far from disappeared. And we start to see suit jackets worn with more casual shirts and trousers, particularly into the 70s. And this marks a really new way of interacting with the garment in a socially acceptable way as well. So I think that emergence of the teenager really had had a lot of sway in the way the suit developed in the casualness that was now being imbued in the suit.

[Lydia Edwards]

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the 70s, because moving into the 70s, you have those suits that are defined by those incredibly long and wide lapels and suits that really continue to hug the body. Then you go into the 1980s, we start seeing a return to that boxier, more unstructured suit. This kind of direction was led by Giorgio Armani. But honestly, I think the most exciting thing to happen to suits during these periods in the 1980s, in my humble opinion, are the Japanese designers. So how did designers such as Kenzo both subvert and transform what was this traditional Euro American garment? Oh, God.

[April Kel Callahan]

I agree. Those designers were phenomenal. And it was one of my favorite parts of researching because I didn't know so much about them before I started the research for this book. And, and it's amazing, especially when we consider that not too long before, in the grand scheme of things, Japanese fashion and design was admired, but hugely appropriated by the West. And by the 1970s and 80s, Japanese designers themselves were integrating into the fabric of the New York and Paris fashion scene. And, yeah, Kenzo is key because he did that hugely successfully, and he helped other non Western designers to infiltrate the market as well. So they made a unique mark that. That was embraced because it had elements of Japanese culture, but also because it brought this new direction and new kind of vibrancy into fashion. And my favorite Japanese suit in the book is actually not the one by Kenzo, the one by Mitsuhiro Matsuda. And he's really fascinating because he actually makes constant reference to that earlier Western appropriation of Japanese style. And the suit I chose shows elements that were really clearly taken from early 20th century leisure clothes, such as things like the Norfolk jacket with its pleats, slanted pocket flaps that recall more than a century of equestrian clothing. So at the same time, his work was highly contemporary. It related back to Armani's more unstructured style. It combined formality with comfort, created this very low, slim V down the front of the torso. But it also did refer back to the past. And I think that's one of the things that makes designers like Matsuda so interesting. He is. He's. He never forgets that. He never forgets that difficult history. And he weaves it in to create something that's very contemporary and very inclusive.

[Lydia Edwards]

Yeah, really cool Japanese suits featured in your book. And I have to say, we started in 1666. We've made it all the way up to the 1980s. You actually end your book in 2000. Why did you make that decision to end it in 2000? Why not bring it up to what could be those presentations day?

[April Kel Callahan]

Yeah, I could have done, couldn't I? I could have carried on, really. I had to stop somewhere. And the final example I've used the final example, which is a suit from 1997 by the New Zealand design house Sanderson. If you look at it next to the first 17th century suit that I show, it represents this massive change. It's got a dairy pattern of a very brightly colored chintz which is stereotypically feminine. It's got provocative lettering inside the jacket which you, you can't see, but it reads, yeah. And it says, at last I found my sex machine. Which is of course still not something that's conventional. These things are more widely accepted. Playing with conventions is much more broadly done. And I think this demonstrates the kind of gender fluidity that we're seeing much more in the norm now as we go into 2020. And it also demonstrates that although these things are changed and designers are playing with more unconventional ideas, the suit shape and construction has in essence remained the same for the last 100 years. The suit that I show, the 1997 suit, looks very similar to an 1860s 70s sack suit. It's single breasted, it's got quite slim lapels, it's got relatively slim trousers. And I don't believe that the basic suit has changed much since this example in terms of the way it's cut. Expectations around the suit and the wearing of it are still, I think, quite traditional in many respects. You just need to listen to men talking about their clothes to understand this. I do think changes are on the horizon. Maybe in the future I'll get a chance to expand the volume and put in another chapter. We'll have to see how well it does. But Yeah, I think 2000 was a good place to stop. It's a nice neat place in the millennium. And I encourage readers to think about what they've seen since then and to put their own narrative in place as they come to the end and look at their own experiences of wearing suits, buying suits, seeing suits. So hopefully it will allow people to do that.

[Lydia Edwards]

Lydia, thank you so much for being here. We are so grateful that you wrote this book and took the time to come on here and educate us about the evolution of the suit.

[April Kel Callahan]

Thanks so much for having me. It's been great to chat to you about this.

[Lydia Edwards]

I should follow up by saying that I do understand April, why she ended in the year 2000. As fashion historians, we generally like 10 to 20 years of hindsight to look back on history to give us a more rounded perspective. And like she said, many of the suit styles from the 90s, such as the slim fit, are alive and well.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Today, but there are some noted additions. We can thank Thom Brown in particular for bringing the suit into the 21st century. Not only has he presented the short sleeved short suits, he's also lately been showing suits with skirts for men.

[Lydia Edwards]

And speaking of gender bending fashions, while the more adventurous men might be starting to consider skirt suits, women have been wearing the pantsuits of their male counterparts since at least the 1960s. Last year, both the HuffPost and Fast Company interviewed me about the history of women in pantsuits. The latter was actually tweeted by the pantsuit queen herself, Hillary Clinton, which was very cool and unexpected. What I find so particularly interesting about pantsuits is that I think women have worn them for so long that they're now arguably kind of this gender neutral garment. So let's see if moving into the future the same will be said about skirts.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I hope it is. And and for any of you listeners that listen to the show all the time, you know what a hardcore proponent I am for the male skirt. Oh yeah, and it delights me in New York when it's summer and I see gentlemen wearing skirts. But that does it for us today. Dressed listeners, may you consider the legacy of the suit next time you get dressed.

[Lydia Edwards]

Dressed will be back with season eight and all brand new episodes in February of next year year.

[Cassidy Zachary]

But until then, remember, we love hearing from you, so if you would like to write to us, you can do [e-mail] Dresshistory.com is also where of course you can register for our tours, our trips, our new class, anything else that we have up our finely tailored sleeves.

[Lydia Edwards]

That includes April's twice weekly in person fashion history tours of the Metropolitan Museum of Art as well as our brand new dress to school official fashion live online course, the 1950s Golden Age O Couture, which is now open for registration. And we do have gift cards available for both April's tours and the class. So just send us an [e-mail] and also send us an email if you want to get on the first to know list for our New York City Day tours coming your way in April 2025 and our Paris Fashion History tours coming your way in June. Registration for both of these tours will open in January and we do expect them to sell out, so send us an email to get on those lists.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Thank you as always for your continued support. Dressed will be coming back your way for Season 8 in early February. Dress the History of Fashion is a production of Dress Media.

[April Kel Callahan]

Wow. What's up?

[Cassidy Zachary]

I just bought and financed a car.

[Lydia Edwards]

Through Carvana and mine.

[April Kel Callahan]

You, the person who agonized four weeks over whether to paint your walls eggshell or off white, bought and financed a car in minutes.

[Cassidy Zachary]

They made it easy, transparent terms, customizable, down and monthly. Didn't even have to do any paperwork.

[April Kel Callahan]

Wow.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Hey, have you checked out that spreadsheet.

[Lydia Edwards]

I sent you for our dinner?

[April Kel Callahan]

Options Finance your car with Carvana and experience Total control Financing subject to credit approval.