← Dressed: The History of Fashion
Dressed: The History of Fashion
How to Start a Fashion Revolution, an interview with Carry Somers
00:59:11
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- [00:01]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
Dress listeners.
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Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
You've heard me say it time and time again on the show that while I love studying all things beauty and makeup history, I'm not in fact the biggest wearer of makeup and I've always preferred a more natural look. So there's really only a couple of core products that you're going to find in my makeup bag and that recently has come to include Jones Rhodes Miracle Balm, which multitasks as a blush, highlighter, lip tint, and so much more. I've really been curious about their quote unquote no makeup makeup take on beauty for some time and let's just say now I am hooked.
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Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
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- [01:03]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
Dress listeners.
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Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
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Interviewer/Host
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Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
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Interviewer/Host
Of Fashion is a production of dressed media. With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day we all get dressed.
- [02:31]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
Welcome to the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what when of why We Wear we are friends.
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Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
Fashion historians and your hosts, Cassie Zachary.
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Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
And April Callahan, dress listeners.
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Interviewer/Host
It was more than 60 years ago now when the marine biologist Rachel Carson published her now seminal book, Silent Spring, which is a treatise against the normalization and widespread use of pesticides, now widely acknowledged as a catalyst of sorts for the burgeoning environmental awareness movement of the 1960s and the 1970s. Still to this day, many who pick up Silent Spring find her words more than applicable to the issues our planet's health still faces today.
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Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
Carson writes, quote, we stand now where two roads diverge. But unlike the roads and Robert Frost's familiar poem, they are not equally fair. The road we have long been traveling is deceptively easy, a smooth highway on which we progress with great speed. But at its end lies disaster. The other fork of the road, the one less traveled by, offers our last, our only chance to reach a destination that assures the preservation of the earth.
- [03:41]
Interviewer/Host
Tragically and poignantly ironic, Carson died of breast cancer only two years after the publication of her book. But her work in many ways acted as a springboard that inspired countless others to devote their lives and careers to studying the environmental impacts of human intervention. And we are so delighted today to be joined by one of the many activists who have picked up Carson's legacy, Carrie Summers, who for more than three decades has been one of the most prominent voices on the intersectionality of fashion and the environment, as well as human rights issues within the global fashion industries.
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Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
As we will learn from Carrie herself, from her journey in creating the world's first fair trade certified fashion brand, to co founding Fashion Revolution, which has now grown into the world's largest fashion activist movement. It is no wonder the business of fashion has named her one of the 500 most influential voices in fashion today.
- [04:37]
Interviewer/Host
Upon the publication of a new book, the Nature of Fashion, A Botanical Story of Our Material Lives, which is only recently hot off the press as of this past September in the UK and this week in the US Somers joins us today to talk about her journey and her 30 year career as a visionary change maker who is literally reshaping the future of fashion. Carrie, a very warm welcome to Dressed.
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Carrie Summers
Thank you so much, April.
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Interviewer/Host
Yeah, and this is your first time joining us on the show, but we've actually mentioned your work on several different occasions. We just haven't had the chance to speak to you directly until now. So I'm very happy to do so.
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Carrie Summers
I'm delighted to be here and one.
- [05:21]
Interviewer/Host
Of the reasons why I'm very excited to talk to you is because your career has really traversed multiple paths down somewhat of a windy road. And I do want to ask you about this further. But before we do, I want to ask you a question that we ask guests from time to time, and their answers usually end up being rather enlightening. And that is, what is your first memory of clothes? Fashion, or in your case, perhaps textile.
- [05:49]
Carrie Summers
Gosh. Growing up, my mother made all of my clothes. So, you know, whether they were hand knitted as a baby or going to school, she made all my school uniform, which I just remember being really quite embarrassing because while my friends were going to school in the early 80s in pencil skirts with a little split up the back was as deep a split as school regulations would allow. My mother thought she was Issey Miyake, and I had a handmade skirt with so many pleats in it. So I think my memory of handmade clothes wasn't always as positive as it could have been. But also, I didn't have money for buying clothes, so almost all of my clothes were secondhand. I used to go to a vintage shop in Exeter, which is still there today. It must have been around for half a century now, I think. And so, yeah, I got a lot of really fab clothes and grew up going to jumble sales where you just had. I don't know if that translates across cultures, but just a table with a pile of clothes and in our local town, and I remember getting a Les Chanel suit, which I gave away to another jumble sales. Think I'm never going to wear that slubby brown colour. Look at me now, I'm wearing a porch in a slubby brown color. Then I absolutely would have worn that Chanel suit and Harrods tops and good leather brogues. So it was very much what we think of as thrifting today. And I think from an economy perspective as much as a fashion perspective, because actually, even then, even as an early young teenager, I loved the quality, you know, the brogues, the really nice men's wool coats and things that I could never afford to buy new in a shop.
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Interviewer/Host
Yeah, yeah. And I think that one of the reasons why we find this question so enlightening oftentimes is those early experiences often turn out being foundational to that guest's trajectory and their relationship with fashion moving forward. So when I was preparing to speak with you, one of the interesting things that I noted is that at least part of your formal education isn't necessarily related to fashion at all. Could you tell us about your background and how you eventually found yourself working in the fashion industry.
- [08:05]
Carrie Summers
Yes, and I think everybody eluded to the circuitous route which I think I take to most things in life. And I think there's really very little in terms of sort of career steps that have been planned or straightforward. And I'd always been interested in indigenous cultures. And after I finished a degree in languages, I discovered that there was a master's program in Native American studies, the only course in the country. And as it turned out, I was the only person on the only course in the country with indigenous cultures. There's a lot less interest in them than there is today. And it was a wonderful time. I joined most of the courses, tutorials with the PhD students as well. And we delved into everything from interpreting the Maya glyphs. I learned Quechua and, you know, really I just had freedom to study whatever perspective of sort of Latin, Central America. I wanted indigenous cultures throughout history and I certainly had an interest in textiles. And for my master's research I really wanted to go to Peru, but it was just far too dangerous at the time with the Sendero Luminoso. So I ended up in Ecuador. And I remember first of all getting up at six o' clock in the morning to go with a knitwear producer to go to the local market. And she was buying sheep's wool. And I remember seeing so clearly how she was buying the wool and then the. The weighing scales, that international symbol of justice, being loaded with wool on one side and her being charged a price that didn't bear any resemblance to the cost per kilo because she spoke any rudimentary Spanish, probably hadn't completed primary education, low numerical skills. And then some of the cooperatives I met as part of the research had more direct threats, so at least two of them had experienced arson attacks. And I came back and finished my Masters and then I went off sailing for year in the Caribbean on square riggers. And when I came back to the UK, I had a fully funded PhD in natural dyes and the symbolism of colour in the Andes ahead of me. So I guess this of interest in natural dyes and textiles was growing. And when I came back to England, I picked up Anita Roddick, the founder of the Body Shop's autobiography. And I remember reading it and thinking, well, if one woman could make such a change in the beauty industry, what was to stop me from trying to do the same in my summer holidays with fashion? And I borrowed a bit of money from my mum, I think I got a small bank loan. I didn't have any money at all. And I went back to Ecuador and with no experience in fashion, I designed a knitwear collection and it sold out in six weeks. And I saw families sending their children to school in Ecuador for the very first time. So I put my PhD on hold. And then eventually I gave it up and decided to focus on creating change instead. Because I think that experience really helped me to reshape my priorities. And that was 1992. It was 500 years since Columbus arrived in the Americas as well. So it was really feeling that weight of the colonial legacy and wanting to do something which helped to put the profits and the credit and the wealth and the recognition in the hands of the people who deserve it. And that was really the reason I called my fashion brand Patricuti, which nobody seems to know what it means and nobody can really pronounce it, but it means world upside down or time of transformation. And that was that. That sort of declaration of commitment within the name.
- [11:51]
Interviewer/Host
I have multiple questions now that we've gone down this path. First of all, when you were in Ecuador the first time, why were some of those collect subject to arson? What was the conflict there that was happening?
- [12:04]
Carrie Summers
The conflict was with the middlemen who controlled the world trade. So the middlemen controlled the supply of the wool. They didn't want to sell it to individuals, certainly not to cooperatives who could then group together. I mean, one of them had started to sell their own dyes and to sell their own dyed wool. And that was one of the areas of arson attack. Yeah. So it was that threat that forming community groups, forming cooperatives opposed to that established order. And very soon I started working with Panama hats and discovered there was seven different middlemen involved in the Panama hat supply chain, adding very little value to the hat. It was just all of them were making their profit along the way. You know, the weavers called them pairwise or dogs. And it really was that idea that, yeah, that the weavers got very little, but all of those middlemen wanted their cut and they had the access to the market. So they didn't want the individual producers, all the community groups or cooperatives even having a stall in the local market so they could potentially meet wholesale buyers or meet tourists as well. So, yeah, it was quite a sort of sketchy place. I mean, I had a couple of death threats in the early 90s in, in Ecuador and it wasn't the safest place to be working.
- [13:23]
Interviewer/Host
That kind of leads me into my next question. I was going to ask you about the industry's relationship to sustainability and change. And what were some of the initial challenges that you first faced when you started trying to go down that path? But you've already answered the first one and that was just being there and being present. But when we think about these words within the fashion industry now, ethical fashion, sustainable fashion, these are very much buzzwords. This was not the case in 1992, and you moved forward, making major strides in these areas. So what was the state of the fashion industry at large relationship with sustainability in the early 90s, and then maybe some of those specific initial challenges that you faced when you started speaking to people about change?
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Carrie Summers
Essentially, yes. Sustainability, sustainable fashion, it wasn't a thing. In the early 90s. I believe I was the first person to put the words fair trade and fashion together. And certainly in the UK at the time, Fair trade was really a quite undrinkable Nicaraguan coffee that was supporting the Nicaraguan solidarity campaign, I believe, at the time. But I was thinking, well, you know, if this can be applied to coffee, why can't it be applied to our clothes as well? And so I started to meet up regularly with the people who were starting then to work with coffee, with cocoa and bringing in that angle of fashion and textiles as well. There was so little interest. I remember even, gosh, what's that, 18, 17 years later, 2009, when we received our first Fair Trade certification. We'd been working on that process for about three years and piloting with the World Fair Trade Organization, sort of developing those tools and piloting. The first one was called the Sustainable Fair Trade Management System. And it was fantastic because it really gave us that fair trade management system for ourselves and for the producers and the structure within which we could move forward. And I remember when we received that certification and I went to, I think we were doing probably London, Paris, maybe Milan Fashion Week at the time, and the journalists simply weren't interested at all. Really no interest. And even when we sold to brands, a lot of them didn't want the Fair Trade label in the product or we'd sell it to, you know, people that had online presence or catalogues. They wouldn't want to put information in, in about the Fair Trade. And part of me thought, you know, that's good. That shows that our product stacks up against anything else. It's comparable in the market. People are buying it because it's a great product. They don't need to tell their customers anymore. But part of me, like, I'm sure customers would want to know about this. They would want to know the difference they would want to know that this is fair trade and it's benefited the producers. So I found that really interesting. And then at the same time, sort of 2000, 2009, we started working on a three year European project. It was a geo traceability project. And our Panama hats were the only kind of finished product. All of the other items that were being traced were commodities. So it was like vanilla, cocoa, coffee, the normal fair trade commodities. And ours was the only sort of fully finished product. So as part of that, we collected 70 different social, economic, environmental indicators every year so we could really measure our fair trade impact. And we also had researchers who went out from French universities who measured the carbon used for each, for one Panama hat, the energy usage and also the water usage. And it was like one Panama hat used the equivalent of 13 days drinking water to produce. And then we looked at a cotton hat, 825 days drinking water. And that matters. These are really material differences. And having that knowledge impacted the way we made our products. But it seemed like there was just so little interest and there was maybe some burgeoning interest in traceability. And I remember seeing some people's web pages and they're like, oh, this information took us like a whole afternoon to put together our traceability map. And I'm like, gosh, hours took us three years to put together going to the GPS coordinates of each, each weaver's house. And only 45% of them were accessible by road and the processing facilities and the GPS coordinates of each community owned by diverse plantation where the straw grows. And it was just like, you know, it, but it was really hard. And maybe I wasn't that good at storytelling at that time. Maybe that's a skill I've learned and developed in the meantime. You know, maybe that pushed me to tell the stories better or maybe other people was just a bit more, more experts in terms of sort of their technologies and telling a simple story, which quite often is just what journalists want to know, unfortunately.
- [18:19]
Interviewer/Host
Right.
- [18:19]
Carrie Summers
And I think that comes to today. You know, there's a danger of, you know, making things too simple. And there is so much complexity in fashion and textiles and these sustainable stories.
- [18:28]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah, that reminds me of a quote that I marked down from your book, which we're going to get speak about here in a minute. But one of the things that really hit me and I made a note to myself was when you wrote what appears to be one story often contains multitudes. And I think that is exactly what we're talking about here. And dress listeners, please know that Carrie's work in this vein of transparency within the fashion industry. You are the person that started this. Like, where we are now is the direct legacy of this project that you were just speaking about. So thank you very much for that.
- [19:02]
Carrie Summers
I think it's also the direct legacy of the work of everybody else at Fashion Revolution as well, which I'm sure we'll come on to. Because it was from. I guess it was from seeing that lack of transparency that meant when I saw people searching through the rubble after the run of Plaza factory collapse in Bangladesh to prove which brands were producing there, I knew immediately it was that lack of transparency and traceability that was costing lives. But I think credit has to go deer to this whole team and people like Sarah Ditty, who led the policy side at Fashion Revolution, because I think it was also the Fashion Transparency Index that really pushed those brands to disclose more information. We saw that in terms of disclosing the Cutmate trim, the factories where our clothes are sewn together, which went from 12 and a half percent of brands disclosing that to well over 50% today. And then also, you know, relevant to the book in terms of the disclosure rates of raw materials as well. And no brand, when we started the Fashion Transparency Index in 2016 was publishing any sources available materials.
- [20:06]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah, well, you know, some of our listeners may be familiar with some of your other organizations that you had a hand in founding, but if they're not familiar with those, Fashion Revolution will be the one. Since its founding, it has really grown into a completely global movement. You obviously already referenced the Rana Plaza collapse, but could you tell us more about the seeds that kind of got Fashion Revolution started and what were some of your initial hopes for its various actions and outputs?
- [20:39]
Carrie Summers
Yes, Fashion Revolution was really born from a crazy idea in the bathtub a couple of days after the disaster. And it almost arrived in my head as a fully formed idea. The name Fashion Revolution, the idea of doing something on the anniversary, certainly not growing into a global movement. And it seemed like a good enough idea to get out of my bath and do something about it. And I think that was a lesson to me. I think if I'd have carried on having my Sunday evening bath, nothing would have happened. I thought, oh, that was an interesting idea. But I didn't. I got out of the bath and I called Ursula de Castro, who I didn't even know that well at the time. I think she sat on my table a few times at London Fashion Week a few months earlier. But we. So we'd only just started to get to know each other. But she seemed like the right person to talk to me about it. But I think it also just tapped into that momentum and that powerlessness people felt. People knew a disaster of that kind was going to happen at some stage or could happen, but they also knew that can't happen again in the name of fashion. So I think it gained its own momentum and then spread out to over 100 countries. And I'm excited. Next week I'm going to meet both the past Guatemala coordinator and the current runners as well. Just a bit of a sidetrack. I passed Patrick Cootie over to my husband to run quite suddenly, and fashion revolution started to grow. We focused first of all on labor rights, on the social side, with the hashtag who made my clothes? Because we knew that's where the most urgent change needed to happen. But we then started to then move on to the environmental side. What's in my clothes? Because we knew that, you know, human rights and the rights of nature are so intertwined. And I think in terms of activities and probably what led me to this point, I started to recognize that really fashion's impact goes so far beyond what we can see. And, you know, we started learning about microfibers. And I'm the kind of person who just wants to go and see for myself. So I joined an all women 2000 mile sailing voyage from the Galapagos to Easter island in 2020. It's what, you know, the world's most remote inhabited islands. And I wanted to research plastic pollution. So we spent almost every day just dropping out. Mantitol and the Niskin bottle. And the sea looked so Pacific in a way the Pacific normally doesn't. It was blue, it was calm, we didn't even see a passing bottle. But every trawl brought up an increasing amount of plastic. And I remember seeing some of those sort of spirals. I've got some pictures of one inside the sample bottle, but often 20, 25, 30 pieces of plastic every time we brought up the trawl. And just sort of small but really significant remains of that trail of plastic waste that we leave in the wake of uncontrolled growth. And I also noticed really that as our knowledge of those harmful effects of synthetic fibres grows, we've been hearing so much about natural fibres as alternatives. And often I've seen charts on Instagram saying synthetic fibres never disappear. And natural fibres, oh, they dissolve into nothing in one week, one month, two months, or something like that. And so we did a project with Keel And Lustre University at my local lake. So much more on my doorstep, still on water, but, you know, saved me going halfway around the world. And. And we wanted to explore how historic textile production impacted local water ecosystems. And the lake had feeder streams coming in from mills that were running during the latter part of the Industrial Revolution. And so we had people coming and we took a sediment sample from the bottom of the lake and we also analyzed the water as well. And sediment in a lake. It's a bit like a time machine. You can use those layers to see the changes in fibres and pollutants over the years. And as we started to analyze that silt, it just dissolved all my certainties. We found more and more natural fibres. I remember seeing a blue strand that was clearly denim. It had that clear twist. And we started finding wool as well. And so we sent the results off to Northumbria University, first of all to the forensics lab to be analyzed. And when we got the results back, we were like, really? And so we sent it down for lead dating in Southampton and that sort of correlated the findings. Some of those fibres have been sitting in the lake for 140 years.
- [25:27]
Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
Wow.
- [25:28]
Carrie Summers
At least 70% of them were natural, mostly cotton, with wool in some older layers. So it's very clear that natural doesn't always mean natural. And we use over 15,000 different chemicals on our clothing and have done for a really long time, not just dyes, but it's thought that dyes to probably the main impact on that sort of lack of biodegradation of natural fibers, but also all of those other chemical treatments. And so coming back to Fashion Revolution, and that was the Fashion Revolution project. It also led me onto the RHS Chelsea Flower show, where we did a textile garden for Fashion Revolution with garden designer Lottie de la Maine and Kate Turnbull, who's an amazing natural dyer of the Secret Diary. And we created a garden which only used plants that could be used to make or to dye our clothes. And it really was the most beautiful garden. And it was interesting when visitors started to come to the garden. First of all, they loved the garden. Then when he told them that all of these could be turned into textiles or dyes in some way, they were really astonished. I began to realise that fashion's problems weren't just about supply chains or factories or so many of the things that we've been addressing at the fashion revolution, but they were about something so much deeper and that was about our relationship with our clothes and with nature herself.
- [26:55]
Interviewer/Host
One of the things I love about fashion revolutions. I'm going to make an analogy here that might at first seem a little strange, but but the organization is akin to an octopus of sorts. It has all these different tentacles. They're in all these different arenas of the pots of fashion activism and trying to bring them all together so we have a big picture understanding. You referenced the Fashion Transparency Index earlier. Those are available online dress listeners if you want to check those out as PDFs. But the information that is in those is it's jam packed with data. It's jam packed with the science behind all these things and all of the statistics and it's just really amazing. And to look at it big picture like that.
- [27:48]
Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
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- [29:01]
Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
April, what's the old Maxim second chances are for your closet, not your ex.
- [29:07]
Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
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Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
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- [30:17]
Interviewer/Host
If any of our listeners are interested in getting involved in Fashion Revolution today, how can they do so? Because you obviously referenced that you were going to meet some of the members from Guatemala. This is literally a global movement.
- [30:30]
Carrie Summers
It is, yes. And I left Fashion Revolution, gosh, three. It's probably almost three years ago to the day, actually. And so I'm not sure of any changes in the structure since I left. But yes, there are Fashion Revolution country coordinators in not every country, but in a lot of countries. And I know that there is a team, an active team in the USA as well, because I've been liaising with them about my upcoming book tour there as well. So, yes, there's definitely a Fashion Revolution USA team. I believe there's now an England team or a British team, which there wasn't when I was there. So lots of countries do have their own Fashion Revolution teams. I think that's your first, best, first port of call.
- [31:11]
Interviewer/Host
Well, you just referenced your book, which I do want to talk about. Dress listers. If you're beginning to wonder if Carrie ever sleeps, you're not alone. You have actually written two books that have been published within the last two years, am I correct?
- [31:26]
Carrie Summers
Well, the Dictionary Plant Fibers and Dyes I wouldn't really call a book. It was more like an online, online dictionary. So that was the research for my Churchill Fellowship. So after I left Fashion Revolution, I was fortunate enough to receive a Churchill Fellowship and I went off traveling to Peru, El Salvador, Guatemala and Mexico. And you're supposed to create a report at the end. But being me, I mean, I just sort of researched over a hundred different dye and textile fiber plants and stories of people as well. And I'm like, how am I going to put this into a report? But it's also really useful information. I've been doing some sketches as well. And I was like, okay, I know, I'll do a dictionary. I didn't realise that the only dictionary software actually involves learning a whole new kind of. I don't know what it's called, like HTML. It was sort of one of those computer language systems. So I had to teach myself that with a lot of trial and error trying to work out how to size pictures. It certainly wasn't intuitive. So but I'm, you know, I'm never someone to shy away from learning new things. I think that's really important. So yes, that was the dictionary and then some of those stories went into the book, but actually very few. I mean the present day in my book, although it weaves through and I weave the stories together, really the final chapter on the present day is very short. I mean it's certainly by far the shortest story in the book.
- [32:49]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah, I loved reading the Nature of Fashion. I learned so much. It was just released last month and it really is this sort of history spanning, globe trotting adventure around the world for some 40,000 years of understanding humanity's relationship with fibers, with cloth, with dyes, how they were used, how they were viewed by various cultures and civilizations before it kind of moves on to some compelling connections between all of them. And then of course your final chapter is entitled Shoots of Resistance that have been historically found within the industry. And, and first off, I would love if you could share a bit about how the book is structured for our listeners because I found the format incredibly compelling and then maybe after that how you went about researching it. Because as a fellow author, this book is an incredible kind of360 tour de force of researching global textile and or fashion history. These little vignettes are so beautiful and delightful and it's a very, very fun read. Thank you.
- [34:01]
Carrie Summers
Yeah, I've been getting great feedback on it. I think I can't, I think it must have been. Tim Smith called it like a ronicking tale of piracy. And I mean there is, there's so much in it because textiles, materials, fibers, dyes, they do tell the story of humanity and the good and the bad and the exploitation, but also, you know, the joy and the wonder which we need to rediscover in our clothes as well. I mean people keep saying it's a really unique format and I keep saying no, it is not unique. I'm following the great Uruguayan author Eduardo Galliano and he wrote the most wonderful trilogy about Latin America called Memory of Fire. And for me it's the most accessible way into the history of Latin America. Starting off with the early myths and I think it goes through to about the 80s and his are even shorter vignettes. And that's where I started from. I mean initially it started off as a very non fiction book as a collaboration with a couple of other people and then for various reasons they weren't able to proceed. And I had this idea of how I would structure the book. And I've always loved his writing in that format. And I think it also, it suits the way in which we live and work today. Because you can read a story first thing in the morning, you can read a story before you go to bed at night, and it probably takes you 5 minutes, 10 minutes, and you feel like you've made some progress through the book and you've come to an end point. So I thought those small story structures, I thought it was going to work and I loved working like that. And I also love to challenge myself as well. I didn't want to write a typical non fiction book and I certainly didn't want another book about all the problems in the fashion industry because I think we've had enough of those books probably. And I also wanted it to be a, an outlet for kind of my pent up creativity after 10 years at fashion Revolution, often working very much in the finance, the operations side and being desperate to work on the communications and the creative. And I did do some of that, but I would love to have done more. And I think being me, I've always just been a bit of a radical, a bit of a revolutionary. So I was never going to write something that was a typical non fiction format. And I think it works. I know my editor said at my UK book launch last month that one of the things she really loves about the book is it really pushes the limits of what nonfiction can be. And I think that works in terms of that, you know, that storytelling thread.
- [36:25]
Interviewer/Host
So, so how it's structured is each little vignette cites a place in the world, all around the world, and also a time period. And then Carrie will launch into a very specific story, a very specific technique, a very specific issue that arose within textiles and fashion and trade. And it is fascinating. And when people think that fashion isn't political, your book disproves that time and time again. Just saying. There are countless obviously vignettes in the book, but I was wondering if you have a couple of favorites that you might like to share with our listeners.
- [37:01]
Carrie Summers
Gosh, that's so hard. I know, there's so many stories. I mean, I think just do it. Doing that research, I was just awestruck so many times by what we were doing so long ago. I mean, just last month there was the discovery published of the first use of indigo of the wove plant in the Tiduana cave in Georgia. And that's already in my book. And I knew at the time they'd found some, I think they said turquoise in the cave, as well as pinks and grays and blacks. But they hadn't identified the dye plant at the time. Just so incredible that 30,000 BCE we were coloring our clothes not just with a simple dye vat either. I mean, indigo. It's complex. That's science. That's chemistry. And it, I think, really, really fascinating to look at those early stories and see how color started. You know, we weren't just creating cloth for utilitarian purposes, for the nets or for snares and for underwear and outerwear. There's beauty as well, you know, maybe even for cultural symbolism. And I think one of my favorite vignettes, one of the ones that I love reading at book events as well, is from Echigo in Japan in the 12th century. And this is in northern Japan, and it's a landscape which is dominated by snow for eight months a year.
- [38:22]
Interviewer/Host
This was one of my favorite ones, too. I was gonna ask you about it.
- [38:25]
Carrie Summers
Perfect. And then it was actually something I come across, I think, when we did the. A fanzine of fashion revolution called Fashion Craft Revolution, and I was researching some of the examples of intangible cultural heritage relating to textile skills. And it was so fascinating. And so I've created this story because a lot of these stories are. It's about my imagination imagining what it would have been like in these times. So there's these women snowbound in this place where you have to shovel the night's accumulation off the roof of the house so that it doesn't collapse. And then they are stuck there with what nature has provided, which is the moistness of life beneath snow and the rami, the nettle fiber from the neighboring Fukushima domain. And it's only because of that moist atmosphere that they can shred the rami fibers until they're so fine, because in the dry winters in Edo, Tokyo, then that would. Those would become brittle, and they'd break on the. The loom. And it's really interesting. They bleach it. So once this long process, I think there's 60, 70, 80 different stages in the process. Once the weaving is complete, which is such a slow process, then they plunge the cloth into the. The meltwater rivers, they trample it beneath their feet to make the vanny soft and lustrous. And then they nigh it out on the white fields as the snow starts to melt and the sun's coming down, and that bleaches them into this vivid white color. And, you know, at the end, I talk about the fact. I think I talk about it at the beginning of the story as well. Some people say that white isn't a color at all. And the villagers say that, well, it's the color of their world for eight moons a year. And, you know, it's not any pedestrian shade. It's the vivid white of Renechigo winter. And I think it was really interesting. Just started to think about color in a different way as well. Trying to think about what is black, what is white, you know, and looking at some scientific papers saying there is no color in the external world. And it's like, well, yes, but that's really sad. It's about what happens to that color when it reaches our brain and how do we react to it in that sort of constant dance that's happening inside our head. I mean, color is a lived reality.
- [40:49]
Interviewer/Host
It's emotional. It's an emotional experience. One of the other ones that I really loved, and you say specifically that lotus fabric is one of the rarest textiles in the world. Would you tell us a little bit more about that process?
- [41:02]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
Yes.
- [41:03]
Carrie Summers
Gosh, that's a story I don't think I've revisited for a while. But, yes, the lotus. And this was a woman. There wasn't much information about her, but this was a woman who noticed one day on her way to the shrine, she decided to pick a lotus flower as an offspring. And as she pulled up the plant, she noticed those fibres sticking to her hand. And as she was a weaver, she was like, well, I wonder if I can weave with these fibres, and started to weave this cloth. And lotus fibers have to be woven on the day they're collected, otherwise they dry out. So it was this process of collecting, weaving, collecting, weaving, and created this incredibly fine cloth. And she brought it to the monks at the shrine as an offering. And it was so beautiful that they actually gave her a new name in recognition of the beautiful cloth that she had woven.
- [41:58]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah. And these stories, these are just two of dozens and dozens. And that's why I was so enamored when I was reading the book. So you have done some incredibly deep thinking about all these aspects about fashion, textiles, their makers, from both sort of macro perspectives, perspectives and also micro viewpoints. I'm wondering, with this vast amount of research that went into the book, what were some of your big takeaways?
- [42:26]
Carrie Summers
Big picture, one of the big takeaways, and we hear it so much today, it's like, of course, you know, this situation we're in now with fashion and textiles, this is recent. This is the last 30 years, 50 years. You know, maybe 200, 300 years since the Industrial Revolution. And I was really shocked to realize that disconnect between who we are, what we create, between agriculture, between fibres, that this rift between us and nature started so much earlier. And this is my story about Cataluic in Turkey. And it was a thriving, they call it the earliest proto City about 9,000 years ago. And they had really rich cultural practices, they had lots of art on their walls. And it's one of the earliest sites, along with Jarmo in modern day Iraq, of plain weave textiles. And it looks like they became really quite obsessed with art and with textiles as well. And the textiles they were creating came from the oak tree and they were painting themselves dressed in leopard skins, probably as proof that they were stronger than the world around them. But the oak was far more accessible and there probably weren't enough leopard skins to go ground. And they started chopping down the oak trees for their clothing to use that silky soft bass, the inner fibers between the outer bark and the central part of the trunk. And they used the oaks for their, for roof timbers, as fuel to fire pottery as well. And oak trees were everywhere. That's probably why this city sprung up there. But eventually they brought in cows and, and some people got greedy and they wanted more cows, so they burnt the forest and they chopped the forest down and eventually it was emptied of trees. And they hadn't realized that oaks were fundamental to the life of the city. And the city collapsed.
- [44:30]
Interviewer/Host
Wow.
- [44:30]
Carrie Summers
And I think I'd. Yeah, yeah. And I think before researching this story, I'd always placed that separation of humanity and nature on the shoulders of those Enlightenment thinkers, people like Isaac Newton and Rene Descartes. And we're discovering that that rift just appeared so much earlier. And it was the site's lead archaeologist who described Chat of the Week as an early example of how the advent of farming ended our symbiotic relationship with nature. Which is really, it's really devastating to think about that. But I also wondered if that was the full story. I mean, did they then learn from that cascade of cause and effect, and did the people of the city go and start anew elsewhere and carry that hard won wisdom with them? So I think that was really one of the main lessons I learned, is that history, it can be a register of failure dating back for tens of thousands of years. But also it's that ledger of practices, there's a binding people to place that. There's those lessons and learnings and we can thread those back into being as, as well, you know, are those cautionary tales still there and things that we can hold on to as we carry into the future?
- [45:52]
Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
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Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
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Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
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Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
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- [47:11]
Carrie Summers
Dress.
- [47:11]
Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
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- [47:35]
Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
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- [47:44]
Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
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- [47:55]
Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
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- [48:10]
Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
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- [48:26]
Interviewer/Host
In the same vein of learning. I would love to know some of your thoughts on the contemporary state of the industry, some of the actionable steps to course correct ourselves from the viewpoints of both the fashion industry proper within itself. And also what are some of the things that consumers today we can do at home?
- [48:51]
Carrie Summers
Gosh, that's a lot I know to think about, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, so much has changed in the last 20 years, you know, from the last, what are we, 33 years. Gosh, since I started sort of pushing for fair trade and then transparency. And I think at the beginning those problems were mostly social. We talked about sweatshops. Naomi Klein had her book about no, no logo. That's what we thought about at the beginning. And those issues are still really urgent. But we're also looking much more at the environmental side. And I think what's changed is the ecological scale of the industry. These impact as well. It's exhausting ecosystems, the soil, the water, the plants. One of the projects I've worked on over the past year is the Crafted report, which contains the Artisans Index. And we looked at 50 fashion and homeware brands and how much they disclosed about the artisans within the their supply chain is really interesting that homeware's disclosed next to nothing. And I think they just haven't had that spotlight on them in the same way that fashion and clothing has. And you know, we found that only, I think it was 2% of brands carried out soil testing at artisan level or tier 2 facilities similar with air quality testing as well. And we actually mapped the air quality in places like Delhi by using, I think we used the US Embassy's air quality radar so we could see what the different air quality quality was across the different seasons in Delhi. And obviously that really needs to be monitored, especially in places like artisan facilities that might not be, and they might not have the proper air conditioning systems that you might want. Going slightly off topic here. So I think it's, you know, it's really clear that every part of that supply chain and it's part of that bigger part of a cultural web as well as an ecological and social web. And so often with raw materials, we act as if they are just interchangeable inputs into our clothing. And I think that blindness really has consequences for us. But we are starting to see that change. You know, I saw that change during the time I worked in the Fashion Transparency Index when Novogram was disposing the raw material sources of their raw materials. And then that went up to 12% by the time I'd left. I mean, you know, still not a lot, but it's a. It shows that there's a recognition that fibers and knowing the source of fibres they're responsible for, I think it's 90% of biodiversity loss and water stress as well. And I think there's so much hope, though. I mean, people are realizing that these are part of living systems. And when I go to the Future Fabrics Expo, for instance, in London every year, that really gives me hope when I start to see some of the incredible fibres of material innovations there. And we're also seeing that slow widening of the conversation beyond sustainability. So talking about relationships, talking about reciprocity, talking about, yes, those relationships with growers, makers, brands, the living world itself, and how do we engage with indigenous peoples and traditional peoples in a much more respectful way? And I was just reading something this morning about how do we really make sure that fee, prior and informed consent is embedded, that it's not just a box ticking exercise. But it really does mean that people have the right to say no as well. Because, you know, these indigenous peoples just, you know, they remember, they never forgot so many of those lessons that we're having to learn today that nothing survives on its own. So, yeah, we have really big challenges ahead, but I think we also have that capacity to imagine differently. And I very hope that my book is just one small part in that bigger narrative and that bigger sort of movement is actually starting to reimagine what the world could look like if we built new relationships between people, plants and place.
- [52:53]
Interviewer/Host
Do you think that one of the big takeaways for the home consumer is putting a little bit of work in on their part in terms of self educating themselves about some of these issues?
- [53:04]
Carrie Summers
Yes, I think that's very much a part of it. We do need responsibility on brands and policymakers, but I think it's also, it's about attention. I think it's about just considering those stories going back to fashion revolution, who Made My Clothes. What are those stories embedded in what we wear? But really, every fibre, every dye. I mean, I've been wearing Marigold Dial My Concho and, you know, this is probably left over from the Day of the Dead celebrations from two years ago where the workers go around and they collect the leftover flowers from the altars to make sure they're not wasted and they put them into their dye pots. But if we think about, you know, where did that fiber come from, where did that dye come from and what kind of soil or water or did it leave the forest standing or did it mean that it was cut down? And when we can start to see that in our mind, start to imagine it, then our choices start to change as well.
- [54:02]
Interviewer/Host
Yeah, it becomes once you make, start to make those connections and you go shopping. Sometimes I find myself getting stressed out and depressed, but then other times I'm like wildly delighted. I had one experience. I pretty much wear only vintage now. Or I'll buy from sustainable or ethical brands and or fashion designers that I know personally. And in those cases it usually happens to be that they're already on the sustainability ethics bandwagon already. But every once in a while I'll make an exception for myself and I'll buy something new. And a couple years ago I bought this really, really beautiful pink, bright pink bubblegum, pink wool sweater. And I'm like, okay, this is going to be like my exception for the year. I really love this sweater. It's high quality, X, Y and Z. And then I got it home and I started cutting the tags off and I flipped the tag and it had its entire history of it being fair trade and where all the fibers came from and I hadn't even noticed. So sometimes, you know, I'm pleasantly surprised. And I think a lot of that impact and awareness is literally because of your work. So thank you very much.
- [55:14]
Carrie Summers
I think also one of the things that my time at Fashion Revolution taught me and those conversations, we've had a lot of conversations with brands is how much notice they do take of consumers. So we found that it only takes between 50 to 250 emails, letters, messages to a brand on a certain topic for that to get discussed at a board level. And that's not really much of people are concerned about some aspects of their clothing. Right to the brand. They really do listen. They don't take much notice of petitions. They typically think that's not their customers. But if you write to them and you are their customer, they really listen to you as well.
- [55:51]
Interviewer/Host
That's a very practical, very doable action for our listeners to take. Part of our time together is about to run out, but I know that you are off to Guatemala soon with the United Nations. I'm hoping you might be able to share with us a little bit about this or some of your other current projects. Basically, what can we expect from you next? And then later I'm going to ask where people can find you as well.
- [56:16]
Carrie Summers
Gosh, yes. I mean, I've got a few different projects on the go at the moment. I mean, I'm off to Guatemala with the United nations to work with some indigenous entrepreneurs, so to talk to them about the EU market and about product design, about fibers, about natural dyes, so very much just across that suite of different topics that, that I work on. So really looking forward to that. After that I'm back in the UK for a couple of days and then I'm off on a US book tour. So at the moment I've got dates in New York at the United nations and the Rizzoli Bookstore and then I'm down to Miami for a couple of dates. Might plug a few more in as well. Then in January, I've been invited to meet the COGI in Colombia in the Sierra Nevada de Santa Marta, which is just such a huge honor to be invited into that territory where outsiders don't normally have access. So that's going to be a really special experience. And I'm also going to go to the Hay Festival in Cartagena where I'll be speaking as well. And then just looking at some other projects, even some small practical art textiles projects. So I've just been working with Kew Gardens and with some friends, Becca Smith and Kate Turnbull, on what we're calling collaborative cartography. So large scale environmental maps with the community using natural dyes and printing to map ideas and stories and the physical landscape onto cloth. So we've got a few more projects in that, that sphere coming up as well.
- [57:53]
Interviewer/Host
Once again, that octopus with all your fingers in the pots, Carrie. Thank you so much listeners. Get your hands on Carrie's book. It also makes a wonderful holiday gift for your fashion and textile lover. Just saying. And Carrie, if you wouldn't mind sharing with me your book tour dates, we would love to put those in the show notes if anybody wants to come and see you and get a signed.
- [58:16]
Carrie Summers
Copy, I certainly will.
- [58:18]
Interviewer/Host
Thank you so much for joining us.
- [58:20]
Carrie Summers
Thank you. Lovely talking to you, Carrie.
- [58:22]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
Thank you not only for joining us on the podcast today, but also for your deep and abiding commitment to raising awareness and creating the change which is so necessary for the fashion industry today and April. As you two discussed, one extremely straightforward action that our listeners can take is to write directly to the brands they love to express what they would like to see from them moving forward in terms of sustainability, fair trade and transparency. The fact that as few as 50 comments from customers can raise the concern to become an agenda item at the corporate board level is really impactful. So just listeners, do not be afraid to send your thoughts and concerns. Whip up that email send that letter. And also do not forget, you vote with your purchasing power.
- [59:06]
Interviewer/Host
Yes. And please let me gush a little bit more about Carrie's book, the Nature of A Botanical Story of Our Material Lives. It is the perfect blend of amazing scientific and historical research, but it's presented as storytelling in these little short vignettes that, believe it or not, begin 41,000 years ago in the Ice Age and then brings us together, exploring humanity's relationship with textiles and nature all the way through to the present day. And as I mentioned earlier, it is a super fun read. I'm actually going to put this super high up on my 2025 must read book list for any of our listeners and of course for their friends and family or other loved ones who are interested in fashion and textile history. It is of course already up on our bookshop.org bookshelf for any of you wanting to pick up a copy.
- [60:01]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
Yep. And you can find a link to that, of course in our show notes. And for those of you in New York City, Carrie will be doing a book Launch on Thursday, November 18, starting at 6pm at the Rizzoli Bookstore on Broadway, and the booktok portion will be moderated by none other than Past Dress guest historian and lacemaker Elena Konagi Lux. And for any of you in Miami, Carrie will be at the Soho Pool House on November 20. More details on both of these events can be found on the about page of her website@carysummers.com and that C-A R R Y S O M E R.
- [60:35]
Interviewer/Host
S.com I think that does it for us today. Dress Listeners, may you consider how textiles are woven through the entirety of human existence next time you get dressed.
- [60:45]
Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
If you would like to find the associated social media content for this episode, you can search the hashtag dressed568.
- [60:53]
Interviewer/Host
That's dressed568 and dressed listeners.
- [60:57]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
Just a reminder that you still have.
- [60:59]
Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
Time to register for our Fashion History.
- [61:01]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
Day tours of New York City coming your way December 3rd, 4th and 5th. We are spending entire days at the Fashion Institute of Technology, the Metropolitan Museum.
- [61:09]
Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
Of Art, and for the first time we are going behind the scenes at the Metropolitan Opera.
- [61:15]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
You don't want to miss it.
- [61:16]
Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
We hope to see you there.
- [61:18]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
You can get all that information@dressedhistory.com please.
- [61:22]
Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
Head to Dressed Underscore podcast on Instagram or Rest Podcast without the Underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content.
- [61:31]
Interviewer/Host
Associated with each week's episodes.
- [61:33]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
And remember, we always love hearing from you.
- [61:35]
Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
So if you'd like to write to us. You can do so@hellorusthistory.com DressedHistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses and you can check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.
- [61:51]
Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you are interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop dressed and there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles and.
- [62:13]
Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
Do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? You can now sign up for any ad free listening with any tier on our Dressed History Patreon.
- [62:20]
Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
We are also excited to now be.
- [62:21]
Interviewer/Host
Part of the Airwave Network and their.
- [62:24]
Host 3 (possibly April Callahan or Cassie Zachary)
Premium ad free history subscription Airwave History plus available on Apple Podcasts. The subscription brings dressed and also 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for just $5.99 per month. More information on Patreon and Airwave is available at the link link in our bio.
- [62:44]
Host 1 (possibly Cassie Zachary)
Thank you as always for tuning in.
- [62:45]
Host 2 (possibly April Callahan)
And more Dressed coming your way very soon. Dressed the History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.