← Dressed: The History of Fashion
Dressed: The History of Fashion
Invisible Beauty: An Interview with Bethann Hardison (Dressed Classic)
00:47:40
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- [00:00]
Advertiser
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- [01:49]
Cassidy Zachary
The History of Fashion is a production of dressed media over 8 billion people in the world. We all have one thing in common. Every day we all get dressed.
- [02:16]
April Callahan
Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast where we explain the who, what, when of why we wear. We are our fashion historians and your.
- [02:24]
Cassidy Zachary
Hosts April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary, dress listeners. April as you know, today's guest has been on my dream guest list for years at this point I have so long followed and admired the trailblazing force of nature that is Bethann Hardison, the pioneering model turned modeling agent and activist who who hands down is one of the fashion industry's most influential and important mover and shakers. She has been an instrumental and continues to be, I should say an instrumental and driving force in quite literally changing the face of fashion. And Bethann's decades long commitment and I'm talking 50 plus years here and hard won fight for the inclusion and celebration of black models in the fashion industry is at the heart of the new Magnolia Pictures documentary Invisible Beauty.
- [03:15]
April Callahan
Co directed by Beth Ann and Frederic Chang, the film is essentially a memoir of Bethann's incredible life, work and seismic impact. It features intimate interviews with her son, Kadeem Hardison, and fashion luminaries including Iman Tyson Beckford, Tracee Ellis Ross, Zendaya, Pat Cleveland, Naomi Campbell, all of whom you're going to hear from in this short trailer before we hear from Bethann.
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Bethann Hardison
I always know you can change things. I've done it before.
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Cassidy Zachary
Everyone's talking about diversity and inclusion. That directly stems from the work that Beth Ann did.
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April Callahan
Without her, the opportunities wouldn't exist for.
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Bethann Hardison
Me to do what I love.
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Advertiser
She's like a second mother to me.
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Bethann Hardison
That one shining light of kindness. We're all students of Bethann Hardison, and I always say just, you know, hammock and a tequila. I'm good. You heard it first.
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Cassidy Zachary
She's the godmother of fashion.
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Bethann Hardison
When I started, I was the first black looking model on 7th Avenue. There was no people look like me. I knew the difference of segregation from childhood. These people thought that we were less. I let them know we are here.
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Advertiser
She realized she was the message.
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Bethann Hardison
She represents this power. A lot of designers did not use models of color. No blacks, no ethnics. You don't know what it's like to be invisible.
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Cassidy Zachary
Where are the black girls?
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Bethann Hardison
I started the Black Girls Coalition. She moved our glamour and our good looks into the arena of activism. She's a game changer.
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Cassidy Zachary
She sacrificed a lot.
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Bethann Hardison
My mother has enough ambition for the whole world. It's really hard as a single mom, I was scared to fail. She wants us to win more than anything.
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Cassidy Zachary
It gets a little challenging at times.
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Bethann Hardison
But that's going to be part of your great story. I don't know who I think I am, but I do be trying. We want to provoke conversation. We want to provoke ideas. I'm not here to put anyone down. I'm here to bring everybody up. Bethann was able to unify us. She has changed the way beauty is defined. But I still want to do more things. Keep your head up. There are a lot of young people out there who really has something to say, and they come along like a tsunami. They come along as a wave. The game's not over. Once you meet this person, it's gonna change your life. Let's shake it up, whether you like it or not.
- [05:55]
April Callahan
And now we could not be more excited to talk to Bethann herself. Bethann, a very warm welcome to Dressed.
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Cassidy Zachary
Bethann, welcome to Dressed. It's such an honor to have you with me today. Thank you so much for joining me.
- [06:07]
Bethann Hardison
Well, I'm happy you wanted me to be with you today. Thank you.
- [06:11]
Cassidy Zachary
So I'm so excited to talk to you about this incredible documentary about your work and your life. And I wanted to start by asking you something that I ask a lot of our guests because I think it's a really interesting entry point into understanding people's relationship to. To fashion and dress in the industry. And I'm just curious, do you have an earliest memory of fashion or clothing?
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Bethann Hardison
Yes, of course. Because I grew up in Brooklyn, and you have a lot of people with style around you, so you notice things. Or double pleated pant or the way dress my mother would wear that I liked or. Yeah, you're always conscious of style and clothing. Fashion, not so much. Fashion is long many years later when people just embrace that word to the point that they're choking it to death.
- [06:56]
Cassidy Zachary
Yes, I agree. I agree. And as the film alludes to, you grew up in and around the New York City Garment district, and that's where you got your first job. But I was curious, how did you come to work there?
- [07:06]
Bethann Hardison
Yeah, I didn't grow up in. I say, I use that expression to say that the majority of skills were taught to me. I feel the basic skills were in the garment district. That's where you grow mature as a young adult. But I came to work at the Cabot Button Custom button Factory. I looked up in the back then in the New York Times. You'd always find the Times giving you ads where you can basically find jobs. And so I noticed this one that was in the garment business. And I think I was always at that point interested in the garment business. I wanted to be somewhere in that world. And so I went and applied for this job. And that's how that was the first job I got. It's this button, Zach.
- [07:50]
Cassidy Zachary
And what was that like to be in New York in the kind of the middle of the garment district at that time? You see it immortalized in films and TV shows, but had to have been something else to have been there and see it firsthand.
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Bethann Hardison
To you, it's just very normal because you have people rushing back and forth notion shops, trucks of vaults of fabric being pushed down the street, rollers of racks running up and down with guys trying to get the finished garments from a factory probably to a design studio or something. And the buildings are great because they're big, tall buildings that you go in as many, many floors, so you get off a 10 and the side streets are more the business side streets where all the, like I just mentioned the notions and all that are. And the main avenues, which are like 7th Avenue is the main avenue in Broadway, is the main avenue of more thoroughfare in a different direction.
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Cassidy Zachary
So it is as exciting it sounds as it's depicted. Cause you think of people just rushing back and forth with the racks and the bolts of clothing. In the film, you describe Willi Smith and Stephen Burrows as your pillars and they're clearly significant forces in your early modeling career. Can you tell us a little bit about these two designers and maybe how you became a model in the first place?
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Bethann Hardison
Well, Willi Smith was a young designer. He was before the success of Stephen Burroughs. He was a young designer at that time. Had left Parsons, I think he went to. But I think what he wind up doing is leaving his school early and wind up getting. As a young guy, I think he was 19 or 20 when he got a job for a company called Digits. It was a sportswear junior sportswear company. And he worked in that very well and started getting notifications in our trade paper, which is Women's Wear Daily, indicating because they always would report what was going on in the industry. And you would see Digits a lot. And then you knew he was a designer at one point. He saw me constantly. He would see me in the garment area, walking the streets of the garment area. He thought that I was a designer and he liked my style and he, he didn't want it to find out who was I. And then he asked a young woman who does all of the. She would be a runner between the buying offices and the manufacturers. And he, she said, oh, I think I know who that is, but I don't think she's a designer. I think she works at Bruce Manchester, which is true. And so he then met me and then he asked me if I, when we met, we took. He got my information. I sent him a note. Yes, yes, that's. I love to meet you. And we met in the 1407 Club, which is right down the bottom of the 1407 Building on Broadway. And he brought a friend, Harriet Selwood, with him. And they talked to me and I, he said he thought I was a designer. I said I wasn't. And then he asked me what I considered maybe working with him sometimes, like just do some appearances with him when I was available to do. And I told him I had a full time job. But I went up and told Rus and Sylvia and they were excited for me. They was always excited for me. Oh, this is so Great. You can do that. That's great. That was back in the late 60s. Stephen Burroughs comes along later, and Willie Smith actually was someone who knew one of the young guys who was part of that crew of Stephen Burroughs, Bobby Breslau, and asked him to send me to meet Stephen. So consider me to model for Stephen. But at the time, Stephen didn't get me. He was. I wasn't his. Kind of wasn't his type. But eventually, back after saying many things happened, he was bought by Ben Shaw and brought to 7th Avenue out of Bendles. And they needed a showroom model. And Roz, who was his partner, asked me would I consider coming to be the showroom girl. And that's how I started with Stephen and eventually with Steven. I wound up running the design studio and I became his foot model.
- [11:26]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, I was going to say, I love that about. It's mentioned in the film how you are also his assistant. So you're really getting like a 360 view of how the industry and the design process works.
- [11:35]
Bethann Hardison
Exactly true. Exactly true. I did fittings for Copula's Ruff and I did fittings for different people. So you did get that relationship. Yes. You are working with them as fitting. You get the chance to be really behind the scenes in development of garments and helping to help shape and decide how something fits, how something feels, and then you wind up also being their model as well.
- [11:56]
Cassidy Zachary
And something I also really appreciate about the film, and obviously it's integral to your story, is the significance of Chester Weinberg to your career. And he gave you your first Runway modeling job. And this is an experience that you describe in the film as being the only time you ever doubted yourself. Can you tell us about that experience in your life and career working with Chester and what it meant to you moving forward?
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Bethann Hardison
Yeah, he was the first one who gave me an opportunity to work on the other side of the street, where the renowned designers were like the Jeffrey Beans and the Norman Norells and Bill Blass and Oscar De Laurentiis, those kind of guys. Those are where we were much more on the other side of the road, which is on Broadway, which we watch more junior dresses and junior sportswear. As a model. I had not worked with these designers before, these kind of classic, real serious designers. But Willie was quite different. And so that first show was quite a. Yeah, it was quite. You always remember it because of the fact that I never. People think. Will you think it was because you were black? I never thought it was because I was black. I just thought they had a Hard time looking at me, the audience, because of the fact that I was different than what the other girls always look like. I was the next wave of that kind of interesting kind of model coming along. Besides, someone like Chuck Howard also was another designer who was on that side of the street who also believed in me. But he was one of the first ones. Of course, the experience was hard because the audience let me know that I made them uncomfortable. So they began to just chat amongst themselves when I would come out. That was tough.
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Cassidy Zachary
But he was your champion, right. You talk about how he just was like your champion that whole time.
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Bethann Hardison
He could hear. He could hear something. And then in those days, that's where designers only showed in their showrooms and the actual shows of the Tiva, they didn't do it outside or in other venues. And he would come to me because I had two more outfits I had to wear. So he came to me and trying to give me encouragement. Come on. You're so beautiful. Don't you. All right. And I was getting ready to cry. I didn't want to go back out there, go straight to the bathroom and keep staying there until the show was over. But in the end of the day, yeah, he got me through it. And that's when I learned a certain style of walking, a certain style of presence. It made me have to stand strong to how to get through a moment like that. Look at the audience, look at someone. Never hold your head down and have that confidence to do that.
- [14:19]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And it's really that confidence through which you made your mark as a model. During this period in which you played a really central role throughout the late 60s and 1970s, you're at the forefront of the Battle of Versailles, which is so fascinating. It's the 50th anniversary of the Battle of Versailles. So November 28, 1973. Can you talk to us a little bit about that experience? And at the time, did you have any idea what it would mean to so many people?
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Bethann Hardison
No, I think we all learned about it more way after the fact was significant that night, because that you're going into something that was supposedly a benefit five American designers. The actuality of Eleanor Lambert having that idea and having Francois de la Renta, who's deceased now the first wife of Oscar, come up with this idea because she knew a lot of the Europeans and come together to benefit the Marie Antoinette theater that needed repair. So it was just an idea that Eleanor had to put the American designers in Paris. But as it was a nice idea of just being something that was Just a benefit. The French press later, many months later, started saying. They named it a battle. They started saying that it was ridiculous that we were going there, that there's no way that we could even compete with European designers because they're true couturiers and we're just sports. We're never supposed to be competing. It was supposed to be a benefit. And so it turned that then we started getting nervous. We were scared to go. People got come and support us that they started backing out. I think Mary Lou Luther and Bill Cunningham, the only two people that I remember was even there from the America. And I think in the end of the day, because of mishaps for us, it made it work out better for us. Like our sets didn't come together because they weren't measured properly. We measured in inches instead of centimeters. We didn't have anything and we were so bare bones. But we had the girls, we had the clothes and we had music, which they never done. And our girls moved. We really showed the dresses of the clothes. And the French were so preparing to do like an Ed Sullivan show, which is a true variety show, that they had anything and everything. You thought that maybe they would shoot a man out of a cannon at one point.
- [16:31]
Cassidy Zachary
They had, I think there was like a ballet and an orchestra, right? It was very over the top, very extravagant.
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Bethann Hardison
Move one set out, the next thing, Baryshnikov would dance and then he moved the next set out. Then Josephine Baker would perform. They moved the next set and the crazy girl. It was just variety of Paris. And then in between would be the clothes. It was a lot. In the end of the day, we wind up winning. And we were at first. But they threw the programs up in the air and started screaming, bravo, Bravo. We knew we were onto something. And that stage, they didn't. Nobody did that for their segment, but they did it for ours. And so we wind up being a wonderful night with everyone. Josephine Baker, who I'd known from Stockholm, Sweden, she was so excited. She kept pointing a finger at me from a distance, saying, you must take me backstage to meet the girls. She was so proud. The American girls. So it was really a nice thing in that way. And in the end of the day, we walk away. We leave that place. Nobody thinks about it anymore. It was just a moment in time. It was treacherous at moments because it was cold Palace. No toilet paper, enough in the bathrooms, no, not good food to eat. Was tough for those days of rehearsing and all. But I think maybe 10 years ago, the Metropolitan Museum has A diversity division there. And they recognized and learned about Versailles and recognized how many girls of color were in that show. And then that's how it came back on. No one ever knew about this before. So now it's like a big thing. How could you not know? Only because they gave us that luncheon and they gave us a citation, and they invited all the fashion people, and the majority of fashion people that are now current didn't even. Didn't know of that before. Two movies were made, documentaries were done on it.
- [18:14]
Cassidy Zachary
Robin Gavan's book, she's come on the show and talked to us.
- [18:18]
Bethann Hardison
So funny, right? That was her first book. And in her. That was very interesting that she would base it on this concept. So it was really nice. And then also hbo, her book. And then they were going to have Ava DuVernay make a narrative film about it. And now all of a sudden, it's. You got to know about the Battle of Versailles. It's popular now.
- [18:35]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, for sure. And how do we not know about it? It's so incredibly significant when you start to learn the history, not just for American fashion, but the significance that there was 10 black models there, right? It's history making. And it's like, why don't we know these stories?
- [18:50]
Bethann Hardison
Keep talking. That's a very good thing that you're saying, Cassidy, because oftentimes I say to a lot of young designers, and they say, how is it that we didn't know about this designer? There's a lot of stuff that's in the world that's going by. I can name a lot of people that you would know. They said, we should know more about the Latino designers along the way. There's that information, and then things just get crowded, and then it gets lost. Hard to keep up and know everything, especially the time. But now you're infused by information coming at you daily. You're seeking it.
- [19:18]
Cassidy Zachary
And that's one of the reasons I like learning about Chester Weinberg, too, because he's one of those people who. He was a huge name in the 60s and 70s. He. He was a very famous designer, but he died. He was one of the first fashion designers to die of AIDS in the 19, I think, in like, the early 1980s. And he's just written out of history. And it's like learning about these people and putting them in their proper place and their proper context of history. It takes a lot of work, right? People have to do that work to bring them back, but it's work worth doing.
- [19:46]
Bethann Hardison
And I just heard from the girls who are writing his book or something. They're doing something I hear about. I hear from them and they just recently sent me some pictures just two days ago. They wanted to know was that me? Was this me in the show that I was talking about? But it wasn't. It looked like me, but it's a girl named Pal Henry. So I corrected that for them. So they obviously are still doing something about him.
- [20:10]
Cassidy Zachary
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- [21:17]
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- [23:09]
Cassidy Zachary
Throughout my own research into the pages of Women's Wear Daily, it's so clear that you are omnipresent in the social scene of say like 1970s New York, because you're just all over the pages. You're friends with people like Grace Jones, Andy Warhol, Keith Haring. You're dancing at Studio 54. And I thought it was really interesting. In the documentary, Iman says she pleads the fifth on talking about the 70s, but I was curious if maybe you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about what it was like during that period.
- [23:37]
Bethann Hardison
Yeah, no. Doing an interview with a gentleman from the New York Times just earlier. And he and I both grew up in New York and had that experience of being downtown kids and knowing it. It's very interesting. Back in the day, in the 60s, people didn't have to rush around and have goals. They didn't have to feel ambitious about things. A lot of slackers back in the 60s and people sitting cafes all day long and smoke weed and talk about philosophy, we used to say, just talking about their opinions about things. You can live a nice life living like that. But also you had this time when there are a lot of artists that came up at the time and when it starts going more besides music in the 60s and then going into the 70s, New York City was really interesting. A lot of the buildings that all the manufacturing buildings started to go out of business in the area which was then named soho, the south of Houston. Yeah, so you had these kind of design these artists that were able to get these lofts for $25 a month or 35amonth and, and live in them and as well as as do their work in them. And you had no stores. I knew one store, Jackie Lewis was the only one I knew had a boutique in all of soho. Then there was one little grocery store, no candy store on Corner Prince. And it's so interesting about that. When I say that people say are you Kidding. Because now the whole environment is in.
- [24:57]
Cassidy Zachary
Oh, yeah.
- [24:58]
Bethann Hardison
Thors and Merchants and everybody to go there.
- [25:00]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
- [25:01]
Bethann Hardison
Imagine this place with none of that. This one girl, she came to, and I was so surprised because she's been living in Jamaica, but she came to one of the screens. It just shocked me. And she stood up and said. And she started talking and she said, this is Jackie Lewis. And she was the first one to have a retail store that had clothes and shoes and seventh on West Broadway. And we had this time in the 70s where everything was interesting. Yes. A lot of little dance clubs. A lot of nice little dance clubs when you didn't have alcohol. And Paradise Garage, the loft, Leviticus. And then along comes two guys, Steve Rebel and Ian Schrager out of Queens. And they come. And they weren't from Queens, but they had a business agreement and they started something called Studio 54, which I was resenting because they said they were going to have a bar. And the one thing dancers didn't do is drink. So I was like, oh, I was fighting the fever at the very whole time. Of course, we did go.
- [25:59]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
- [26:01]
Bethann Hardison
It was a different scene. Of course it changed the world. It changed the world of clubs.
- [26:05]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, absolutely.
- [26:06]
Bethann Hardison
Now you still go around the world and you'll see people standing outside, bodyguards. And I just go past places, no matter where I'm in the world, said Steve. Look what you started.
- [26:15]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, it's pretty incredible. And I'm just curious, because you're working with Steven and Willie during these periods, are you wearing a lot of their designs? Do you still have some of these clothes that you were wearing in the 70s and 60s?
- [26:26]
Bethann Hardison
I look at this all the time and think about that. I. I don't know. I've made mistakes. I purged and gave things away.
- [26:32]
Cassidy Zachary
We all do that.
- [26:34]
Bethann Hardison
Yeah. And sometimes people say, oh, my God, really? You didn't keep anything. Some things don't fit anymore. I had as the lie. I had a lot of Asdine. I kept like a raincoat that he gave me. My wedding dress. Of course he gave me. And I kept like a belt or something like that. Steven, same thing. Having a couple things of Bowie Breslow and. And. And Stephen, all that time frame. Also Willie. I have just. Honestly, all I have, Willie, is a shirt.
- [26:57]
Cassidy Zachary
But throughout that period, you were wearing the designers you were working with. It's just so fun to think of, especially in terms of Steven, because we all know his vibrant color blocking. To think of all of you going out dressed in his clothes is just something. It's nice to imagine time.
- [27:12]
Bethann Hardison
Yeah, we did. We. I would work with Stephen and I was. We would laugh about this. You know, we didn't wear underwear with our dresses. So you. So you didn't have no line showing in Jersey. Rayon Mac Jersey. So. And always we go out to Fire Island a lot. We would dance in the clothes. And he made them for that. He made a lot of that for those, kind of. For the movement. For movement and all. So it was fun in that way.
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Cassidy Zachary
So you're modeling throughout the 70s and early 80s, and in 1984 you made the decision to start your own modeling agency. Can you tell us a little bit about what prompted that shift from being a model to managing models?
- [27:50]
Bethann Hardison
I was a Runway model and I also had a full time job. The whole time I was a Runway model, I never could afford. If I didn't have a job, it was only because I had gotten let go and I had to get on to the next job. But I always kept a full time job because I couldn't afford to be a model financially solo. And I was a Runway model, wasn't a print girl. Models, Runway models and print models were separate for a long time, right from the beginning of time until it wasn't. And that's when Calvin Klein had the print girl come onto the Runway. So I didn't want to do it. It was other people who made me do this model agency thing. Big resistance on my part. But they were trying to talk me into the fact. What else are you going to. I had come from a model agency and I was known. And there's a French woman who wanted me to do a model agency with her in New York. And so I started the model agency that way because of the fact that she wanted me to do it. And I thought, okay, I'll do it with her. And then I found out from my accountant that she had no intentions of making me a partner. That she wanted me just to work for it. I got. I'm not gonna leave the company that I like that I love working with them. To go work with somebody for them. No, that's not gonna work. So then I was stuck. I already found the location and I already had girls who were like waiting for me to start the agency. So I thought Watani Welch and got her to Rome where she was going to do a film right away. And I just started the agency. I was not a passion of mine and I kept thinking about how can, if I get in, how can I, how soon can I get out? That was my question. I just Wanted to get out, and they were like, give us at least five years. I said, oh, five years. And then I had gotten a little bit of money to start it. Just thought it would take a little time to get the money to pay the person back, which we did it very quickly. And then I wind up getting stuck in it. Once you start being successful in something that's hard to get out. So that's the reason why it started and had great results. And I made it diverse because I knew that if I was going to start a model agency, I had to make sure that I was able to compete with my white counterpart. I'm a woman of color, but I definitely wasn't trying to have a black model agency. I had worked with a model agency that was already like white, with some Latin kids and a couple Latin kids and a couple. Couple of black kids. I knew to make sure that I could compete in that world.
- [30:04]
Cassidy Zachary
And then models you have represented and discovered are people like Kimora Lee Simmons, Veronica Webb Reschumba, Tyson Beckford. That was a revelation. Learning about your role in making him the face of Ralph Lauren. Can you tell us a little bit about the experience of working with some of these models and then just seeing them become these internationally recognized celebrities?
- [30:26]
Bethann Hardison
Yeah, that's interesting. It was good working with the models. It's very true. And I know the reason why I wanted to leave it is because 12th year I learned that I could get out of this. But having the discoveries that really make you stay in it, you know, you keep saying, minus one person, they're so good, then you want to help develop them. And then. And then good things are happening from the development. So then you, you, you have enjoy with it. Those are your little awards. As I always say, booking agents only get those kind of awards when someone says, okay, let's book them. Okay, let's get them the job. So discovering someone like Veronica was one of the early ones to come into the agency. Tani, as I said, was the person who I actually started the agency with. Tani Welch, Raquel Welch's daughter. And then having a few other girls like Bonnie Berman was the one who was really quite. She was like the number one model in the world at the time. And she was the one who was my main. She was my mainstay. She was one who found the money for the agency. She's the one who became like my business partner. She was the one. And you then get people like Reshumba and you're excited to have her, and she picks you over four and That's a great thing. And you know that we kept the agency small and tight in Camorra when she was every bit of. I think she was 14 or 15 when I learned about her. And she comes from Missouri, St. Louis, Missouri. And then after that she had gone. Her agency in Missouri sent her to Paris to work for Carl Lagerfeld. And then they had already let me know about it and wanted me to come because I was known to be a nurturer and all. And she was young, so I wind up having her. And she came to live with me. And most of the girls who came from outside came. They stayed in my home and stayed with me. And so it was great. Discovering Tyson was a whole nother thing. His friend and he were looking at TV one night. My son is Kadeem Hardison, and he was on a different world. Kadeem would be doing different late night talk shows. And they discovered him there. Whoever it was, it be Jay Leno or whoever he was on show, they would always say, so what's your mother doing now? Because I was. He always had interesting stories about me. And this young guy who was with Tyson at the time said, this is who we should go see. And he wanted Tyson to consider modeling professionally. So he brought him to our agency. That's how we have Tyson. And then, of course, within a year, Tyson had taken off. You have that wonderful experience with one of the top advertisers in the world, like Ralph Lauren. It was really wonderful.
- [32:43]
Cassidy Zachary
And something you've just spoken to, and that comes across very clearly in the film is that it was really about your relationship with these models. And you really became this kind of safe place and this support group for these models. And you care about them, and they so very clearly care about you. It's so omnipresent throughout the film is that you've meant so many things to so many different people. And that includes the many models you worked with over the years who describe you as a mother figure and so much more than an agent. And so it's really wonderful to see and to learn about. And many of these models worked with you when you formed the Black Girls coalition in 1988. Can you tell us a little bit about the impetus behind that creation? Yeah.
- [33:24]
Bethann Hardison
Everyone thinks it was for more an activist situation where I was trying to do something in regards to race, and it wasn't. I was doing something to celebrate the girls. Because so many girls of color were working, but not just working, but they were working editorially. We had never had that before. And they don't know that because they're just coming into the industry. What do they know? I needed to show them that this was something that was significant, but also to let them have an opportunity to work with each other for a greater cause. And for me, at that moment in the 80s, homelessness in this city was so running rampant in such a way that I just needed to do something about that. And mostly because children were being double victimized because their families were having to have to be evicted. And after going to shelters. And I just wanted to be able to do something. So the idea of, let's celebrate these girls, do a big event, but at the same time make other people aware of a crisis we have and give back and have these girls be seen, but also have them how they can use their celebrity, but also at the same time, learn to work together so that it's a very competitive world modeling period. And especially when you're only your girls of color, it's even more competitive. But it wind up being something really wonderful. That's the start of it. And we did many parties and everybody would come. It was just fun. But then at some point, I kept watching what was going on in the advertising industry, that the advertisers were not reflecting their consumers, and that needed to be addressed. And I got the interest of Mark Green to please come and have a press conference. That was the time start to turn and start to care about the racial diversity in the advertising industry. And that was a great moment.
- [35:08]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, absolutely. So in the 60s, 70s, 80s, there's all this significant progression in terms of black representation in the fashion industry. And then it seems to come this near halt in the 1990s. And in the film, it's equated to this historical event. Right. It's equated to the Berlin Wall coming down. And I just had never thought of it in those terms, but it's really interesting. Right, can you just talk a little bit about what the Berlin Wall had to do with representation in 1990s fashion? What happened to fashion and the face of fashion in the 90s after all of this progress that had been made?
- [35:41]
Bethann Hardison
Yeah, it's interesting. I use the Berlin Wall as a metaphor.
- [35:45]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. But it's a very potent metaphor.
- [35:49]
Bethann Hardison
The actuality of it is that at some given point, model scouts could go into Europe and start bringing out and scouting models. They couldn't do that before. So they all of a sudden were bringing girls out of Europe into America or into Europe. Two other things that happened is that we didn't have before what we call Casting directors for designers. Nor did we have stylists before. These are all brand new things. So you add that also with the ability for people to go and scouts that go into other regions, at this point, we have designers that have now no longer just their team doing what always they did before. When I model, yeah, it was just you go up to the Calvin Klein and you sit and you talk to his assistant. One of his assistants called all the model agencies. Even back then, that's even when I had my model agency. That's how things work now. It's outside people. And these outside people don't have the same passion about who we were and what it was in our history of what it all was. This is their job now, so they can just have a new idea about it. And so what wound up happening, they started having these girls come into play. And once designers all are individual until one designer does something and then everyone follows. They don't think of themselves as being copycats or doing the same thing as. But they do it becomes they set trends this way. And all of a sudden, next thing you know, one designer eliminates glamour race everything. And she just focuses or he just focuses on this one image of girl, type of girl that they're no longer looking. Want you to be distracted by the movement of a girl or the look of a girl. Just look at the clothes, right? So the girls booking are just very Eastern European blondes mostly that are just basically that girl that you don't notice. They all sort of look alike. They're saying, and they pull the hair back into a chignon and you send them out and you just don't notice the girl that came this significant that you think is going to pass. And then it doesn't. And it goes on for a decade. Then you start saying, oh, I got to come back and do something.
- [38:01]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, you actually, you leave your modeling agency or close the modeling agency. And you did move away and then you come back, Right. Because you're basically called back. People need you here. I think there is a correlation with the fact that one of the biggest voices for black models and representation wasn't here. Right. And so designers could get away with without being called out in many ways. And I think it's really interesting too. So you started your own modeling agency in 1984. You had the Black Girls Coalition in 1988 and again in 1980. 92. And then in 2007, you're basically called back to hold this forum or this roundtable again in 2007 to say what is Going on. Where are all the black models? Why do you think this has been? You talked about it a little bit, but why has this been such a standing struggle for the fashion industry? Why in 2007 and of course, even all the way up till today, which we'll get to. But why has this been such a standing struggle? Why don't they understand the importance and significance of having representation on the Runway? Is it just that designers don't care?
- [39:06]
Bethann Hardison
It's interesting. I don't think that they don't care. I think they just got caught up in a trend. It's like getting called a swirl. And the swirl is just your comfort zone, and everybody's swirling. So just let's keep it swirling. And then you have these outside forces. Not like the designers can have compassion, but then you have people you hire to come work for you, and they are looking to do what's new or what's hot or interesting. And then they all start going down the same road. I have a huge resentment for casting directors and stylists. I resent them because they came along and changed the game with no sensitivity. And you watch the designers just give up their power to these outside hirees and now no longer model as museum. In other words, models. You don't find the designer having these relationships with models like Yves Saint Laurent did with his cabin, or Mr. Yvonne she did with his cubby, or Stephen Burrows did with his cubby. You don't see that anymore. It's disappeared. Calvin had girls he used all the time. And then it just changed. Glamour left. They wanted to take. Linda Evangelista couldn't have gotten booked. She's not black. She couldn't have gotten booked. It was just a change of the game. The idea of the fashion had just become so different. The idea of the model industry had become so different. And that was unfortunate in so many ways. And luckily, I would just go down to my home in Mexico when I wanted to leave my model agency. But then I started getting the cough because, like, you got to come back. You got to come back. There's something. Somebody that they knew had a voice along and was respected was the thing. And New York Times had written interesting article about me. When I left the industry to talk about who was going to do the work, I didn't think about. I just wanted to get out.
- [40:55]
Cassidy Zachary
And you're such a respected person in the industry and someone who really. And a galvanizing force, right? A driving force that really brought people together. And you see that time and again throughout the documentary. It's like, people really respect you and really listen to you and what you have to say. In 2007, you. You brought together this diversity coalition, and then you have what I think they call in the Bethann's Army. So you had people from within the industry who were going out around the world and reporting back to you what was going on so that it could become clear. But what also becomes clear in the movie is it doesn't happen in 2007. Right. It's in 2013. You send this letter out, you've had enough, and you actually call designers out by name and brands out by name. What was the impetus behind that?
- [41:42]
Bethann Hardison
Yeah, we had a. We had been moving by the time I came back in 2007. I just basically took a few. Took a little time. I got in back in, say, 2004, consciously. It just took about four years or so before I could get on that horse again, because it's a lot of work to energy, and it's not work per se, but it takes a certain. You gotta drive up a certain passion to address industry that is national and internationally, too. So you call it out. You have this press conference in 2007. This is just me doing this. It's not. I don't have the backup band yet. And. And it was a great press conference, mixture of many different people in the industry, plus some press. But then one thing that had happened in that meeting in 2007, I called out the fact that they said, no blacks, no ethnics. The casting directors would tell the model agencies, no, I'm sorry, we're not seeing black girls. Seasonal. We're not seeing black boys. Then they start sending out just a bold letter. Just send a letter.
- [42:42]
Cassidy Zachary
No blacks, no ethnic, not even hiding it anymore.
- [42:45]
Bethann Hardison
People say, how could they say that? We have to talk the physical business. We have to describe what we want. If we want redheads, we have to ask about redheads. So it's not rude, really, for them to say that, but when they say it over, because it could be someone's aesthetic, but it becomes a consistency when it starts to become like every season now. The model agencies are not trying to have more girls of color because the few that they have, nobody wants. And the problem with the model agencies, I used to have a little problem with the model agencies because they needed to fight against it, but it was hard to fight against it because these eight these casting directors now also in. These stylists also have jobs at other places that they like their girls to work. I think in the end, by the time 2007, it start to percolate a little bit. They started to get a couple little girls of color there. And it would go up a little bit. Like the barometer would go up a little bit, then it would slide back down a little bit. Then it would go up a little bit. So at some given point, yes, after the all black issue came out from. From Italian Bow, which was brilliant. Then at some given point, even though we were doing decent, you could still see the slide back by 2012, 2013. All right, we got to do something. And I was at my home, just sat there and wrote this short letter, two paragraphs. And I called two young men who was like my backup band, and I individually let each one of them hear what I was writing because it was strong. And they both said the same thing. I guess there's no. We have no choice but to send it. And one guy is black and the other one is white. These are my two guys because they were so entrenched in the industry. And so I sent it out and I sent it to all the councils of fashion of each city. Every fashion city would be New York, London, Milan and Paris. And the response was immediate from London. Immediate. And Paris was funny. I know the guy said. He was just funny. He just said, made no sense. But even Italy, they were responsive. They basically said, we had no idea that this was a problem. They just didn't realize. And they wrote back, this is from the council, that they knew that there was an issue about health and the model's health and not having young girls. But no one had ever sent this out before. Well, it's just that people get caught up in a rabbit hole and it just gets comfortable because everyone's doing it. But the idea, literally, I could actually say, no matter if you use one or two or none, no models of color, consistently for three seasons, consistently, no matter your intention, the results is racism was really just. Was so mind blowing to so many designers. They were like the last thing they want to be thought of as racist. So immediate change happened. Immediate, immediately. Celine right away had a girl. Mitchell Prada had an advertising. It just start to snowball quite nicely in that way.
- [45:39]
Cassidy Zachary
So today you remain a mentor, a driving force. Things like the Battle of Versailles, so many more people learning about things that you were a central part of. Right. And your significance, looking back at your entire career and what you've done and what you've achieved. I have two. A twofold closing. Last question. But where are we at today in terms of representation in fashion and where do we still need to go where.
- [46:03]
Bethann Hardison
We are at representation in fashion. If it's about the model industry that seems to be having a good time, everybody has girls of color, and they can go from the spectrum of the lightest to the very darkest of West Africa. So they have learned that the beauty of the art of the fashion model of darkness can be so beautiful in winter clothes. Those are things that have been improved. There's so many people have been since the Black Lives matter movement, with Mr. Floyd losing his life that way, that so many designers have come along of color two who have come into the game and come into this market, this marketplace that is not. It's tiny, this whole little big island. It's not such a big island, this little fashion industry, but the inhabitants are so many more. And it's worrisome because a lot of these brands have to find homes. Going out into the marketplace, that's worrisome to me in so many ways. And we talked about sustainability. We talk about it, and we keep on making more clothes. No one feels maybe we should just go live in a bunker somewhere and wear just some hemp things and keep it easy. So there's more people being encouraged to come out in design world. And yet now that the Black Lives Matter movement has settled, there are a lot of people now finding difficulty in getting retail support. And the industry has always been competitive and always tough.
- [47:26]
Cassidy Zachary
But I love that you're mentoring not just models today. You're mentoring a lot of these designers.
- [47:30]
Bethann Hardison
Yeah, I'm guiding. The word guide is a better word. Cause mentor. It requires. Requires like activism, consistency, guide, support.
- [47:39]
Cassidy Zachary
Guide. And support.
- [47:40]
Bethann Hardison
Yes. I like to a guide when I'm around. You get good guidance. Yes, I do. I care very much about the design and stuff that I help.
- [47:50]
Cassidy Zachary
In closing, I just want to thank you so much for this film and sharing this with all of us. It's an incredibly moving and touching film. And I just wanted to ask you about this experience because the film also touches on how you been working on your memoir. I'm not sure when your memoir is coming out, but I'll definitely be reading that. And so it's really a reflection on looking back on your life and all you've achieved and accomplished and what you've done over all these years. What has this period of reflection been like for you?
- [48:19]
Bethann Hardison
Yeah, no, thank you for asking that. And I'm glad that's the last question, because I have to give a good thought on that. I think what it's been for me is that I learned that I have had value because I didn't know I had a story. But what I've learned from this whole process is really the value that I never had before. Before. I'm just doing the work. I'm just, look, I'm a revolutionary. I'm just getting it done. Things need to be done, so we get it done. But I thought, until I saw the film on In Full, sitting there watching it at Sundance, really first, when he sent me four hours of footage, I knew I was. I became a believer. But once we, when we saw the film with an audience and all, you know, that it's significant and that I have to stop being so modest and learn to value what you've done, that makes everyone love this film. And of course, Frederick is a great storyteller, great filmmaker actually. And I'm so happy to be the co director of it. Invisible Beauty has taught me a lot about me, but also has allowed me to understand, understand my value and the value and all that I have done. And it's so nicely told in such a way that there's not a soul that doesn't say, what a great film.
- [49:28]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
- [49:28]
Bethann Hardison
And I'm very proud of that. And I think that I walk away best knowing that's something I've now learned and it took me years. You can keep learning. I learned my value.
- [49:39]
Cassidy Zachary
Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing this film with us and taking us into your life and your journey. And I just really appreciate your time and you joining me today and I.
- [49:50]
Bethann Hardison
Thank you very much for having me.
- [49:53]
April Callahan
Bethan, thank you so much for joining us and sharing additional insights into your life and work. Dress listeners, this is a really nice primer for the documentary, which of course you are all going to rush out and watch. And we will provide a link to it in our show notes and that will connect you to all of the platforms it is currently streaming and the theaters and film festivals where you might be lucky enough to view it in person.
- [50:16]
Cassidy Zachary
And I cannot say enough wonderful things about this film. All fashion history documentaries are not created equal, dress listeners.
- [50:26]
Bethann Hardison
That is true.
- [50:28]
Cassidy Zachary
So it's really nice to see Bethann's life and work get the thoughtful treatment it so well deserves in this film. And as we mentioned, the film is co directed by Frederick Chang, who is also responsible for two other fantastic fashion documentaries, and that is 2014's Dior and I, which is about Raf Simmons time helming Dior, as well as the 2019 documentary Halston. And of course, we will certainly keep you posted also about the release of Bethann's memoir. That concludes our conversation with and about Bethann and Invisible Beauty. Dress listeners, may you consider the driving force horses shaping the fashion you see and wear next time you get dressed.
- [51:07]
April Callahan
Remember, we love hearing from you, so if you'd like to write to us, you can do so@helloressedhistory.com or you can also DM us on Instagram at Dressed Underscore Podcast, which is of course where you'll find reels and posts accompanying each week's episodes. We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for for fashion history books, so if you're interested you can always find a link in our show Notes to our Bookshop bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop dressed and there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles.
- [51:46]
Cassidy Zachary
You can also find a link to that in our show Notes where you can find a link to dressedhistory.com which of course is our website where you can check out our latest auto offerings from the dress universe that includes our classes and our tours. So head over to DressedHistory.com and see what we have up our sleeves. Love dress but want to skip the ads? Consider subscribing to our ad free version of the show for just $3 a month and enjoy our eight new episodes a month ad free. That does it for us today. Dress listeners. Thank you as always for tuning in and more dress coming your way very soon. The History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.
- [52:24]
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