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Dressed: The History of Fashion
Joy Goddess: A'Lelia Walker and the Harlem Renaissance with A'Lelia Bundles
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- [00:01]
April Callahan
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- [00:45]
April Callahan
Dress the History of Fashion is a production of dressed media with over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.
- [01:00]
Cassidy Zachary
Welcome to Dress the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are friends, fashion historians and your hosts, April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary, dress listeners.
- [01:14]
April Callahan
Today's guest, A' Lelia Bundles, will be a name you recognize because it was just over one year ago that she joined us on the show to discuss the incredible life and legacy of her great great grandmother, Madam C.J. walker, who you will remember was a self made millionaire and beauty hair care mogul whose built her fame and fortune from the ground floor up in the first decades of the 20th century. And now, as promised, she's back to tell us all about her namesake and great grandmother, A' Lelia Walker, the subject at the heart of her very recently published book, Joy Goddess, A' Lelia Walker and the Harlem Renaissance.
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Cassidy Zachary
As we will learn today, A' Lelia took over her mother's beauty empire in the wake of her untimely death in 1919. But this is not where she would make her mark. Instead, as the book's title, a' Lelia. As poet Langston Hughes described the quote, joy goddess of Harlem's 1920s. Damn, how do we get this moniker for us today? But she was actually one of the defining figures of the Harlem Renaissance, a celebrated salon hostess who mingled with and cultivated and inspired the era's great luminaries civic, political, cultural leaders, fashion icons in her home with parties and also her Dark Tower Salon which opened in 1927. Described as Harlem's Queen and quote, more gorgeous than a Ziegfeld finale, she was a Formidable and fashionable figure in her own right. She was a patron of the arts and Parisian haute couture. And it is through these lenses that we will learn more all about her today. A' lelia. Welcome back to Dressed.
- [02:52]
April Callahan
Welcome back to Dressed. It is such a pleasure to have you here with us today.
- [02:57]
A' Lelia Bundles
Thanks for having me. Glad to be back.
- [03:00]
April Callahan
And before we dive into our conversation today, because I follow you on social media, I have to know how the Beyonce concert was.
- [03:08]
A' Lelia Bundles
Well, I had on my glittery boots and I didn't have a cowboy hat, but I bought a bunch of star hairpins and barrettes. So I was glittery from head to toe. It was fabulous. And I, you know, look, the costumes.
- [03:25]
April Callahan
Yes.
- [03:27]
A' Lelia Bundles
The production. And I am, I like Beyonce's music, but I'm not the beehive and I don't really know all the words, but boy do I get it now that I have been in a big stadium in the rain with people singing along. It was amazing.
- [03:44]
April Callahan
Yeah. And actually Beyonce is not unrelated to today's topic because we actually talked about her in the introduction to your first episode which aired in February last year. And that was the same month that Beyonce became the latest high profile celebrity to launch a hair care line and enter that booming multi billion dollar hair care market that your great Great grandmother, Madam C.J. walker played no small part in establishing. So there was a little bit of a reason for asking about Beyonce, but she is pertinent.
- [04:15]
A' Lelia Bundles
Exactly. And listen, two big trailers set up outside near the swag selling her hair care products. So she has tapped into her market.
- [04:25]
April Callahan
Yes. And one that Madam Walker played no small part in creating. And you've of course written four books in about her. But she is not actually who we are here to talk about today because last time you were with us on the podcast, you promised to return to discuss her daughter and your namesake, A' lelia, whose story first intrigued you from a young age. So can you remind us about how you first encountered her?
- [04:49]
A' Lelia Bundles
So a couple of things that really stand out in my mind. Even before I could read, my mother and I were in my grandfather's apartment. It had been my grandparents apartment, but my grandmother had died in 1945 before I was born. But in the mid-50s, my mother and I would visit my grandfather in the apartment. And while they talked in the living room, I would sneak into what had been my grandmother's bedroom and open the dresser drawers. And inside those dresser drawers were things that had belonged to Madam C.J. walker, to A' Lelia Walker, and to my Grandmother may. Among the things that I pulled out were ostrich feather fans and mother of pearl opera glasses. And I think my favorite thing was miniature mummy charms that a' Lelia Walker, I later discovered, had bought in Cairo in 1922. So before I knew who she was, she was fascinating me. And then, of course, we have the same name.
- [05:50]
April Callahan
Yeah. And we're gonna learn hopefully more about her Egypt ventures here in a bit. But first, I'd love if listeners, a brief reminder about who Madam C.J. walker was and why. As you tell us in the book, it was important to you that a' Lelia quote take the stage on her own behalf in this book.
- [06:10]
A' Lelia Bundles
Madam C.J. walker was born Sarah Breedlove, 1867. First child in her family, born free on a plantation in Louisiana where her parents and older siblings had been enslaved. Washerwoman until she was 38. But by the time she died in 1919, she was a millionaire who had founded a hair care company who had employed thousands of African American women. So she is a larger than life figure. Her daughter, A' Lelia, my great grandmother, inherited her mother's fortune and homes. But like so many people who are the children of the famous larger than life figures, she struggled to find her own place, to find her own path. Ultimately, she did that by being a patron of the arts and having great, fabulous parties. But as I was writing on her own ground, the Life and times of Madam C.J. walker, the first major biography of Madam Walker. I tried to develop the relationship between the two women, but I realized a' Lelia Walker really merited a biography of her own because of her life in Harlem during the Harlem Renaissance, during the fabulous 1920s.
- [07:25]
April Callahan
And something that also struck me too, in the introduction, you write about how you were determined to bring her out from her mother's shadows, especially because of her negative portrayal in literature and TV and film, which I thought was really important as well. So kind of countering the way she's been written unfairly in not just contemporary sources but also biographies of her mother or portrayals on tv.
- [07:48]
A' Lelia Bundles
I became interested in a' Lelia Walker before I could read when I was a little girl. But then in high school, my senior year in high school in 1970, a long time ago, I wrote a report about her and the Harlem Renaissance because we had things that belonged to her in the house as books by people like Countee Cullen and Langston Hughes, Jean Toomer, as I was just really beginning to discover black literature. So I knew that she was fascinating and I really gravitated towards her more than Madam Walker. But then time would go on and I would begin to read about her in Harlem Renaissance histories. Langston Hughes got it right when he described her parties and called her the joy goddess of Harlem's 1920s. But there were other really well known, really respected historians who really kind of caricatured her. And one well known Harlem Renaissance history said, a' Lelia Walker spent the entire 1920s playing bridge. You know, it was just like a real put down. And I thought, you know, wow, that's not what I'm seeing in the letters that I'm reading that she wrote to her attorney. That's not what Langston Hughes said. That's not what her friends who I interviewed said. So why had that happened? But I think that just became a shorthand for the old trope of Madam Walker made the money, A' Lelia Walker spent the money. And then unfortunately, other authors kept repeating the same caricature over and over again. So that's where I was. I really had to address that. Certainly many people saw self made the Netflix series starring Octavia Spencer as Madam Walker. And I have said many times, Octavia was great, but I really had a lot of, as they say, creative differences with the showrunners and the head writer. And they really just again, caricatured a' Lelia Walker, made her into this kind of goofy person, created a girlfriend for her that didn't exist. And it was just like, why did they do that? And I think they were just leaning into some tropes and stereotypes. So I have now written the real story.
- [10:01]
April Callahan
Yes, you have the definitive biography on her. You did just such an incredible job bringing her into full color, bringing her into life with all of her intricacies. And she really just is an incredible woman. And we're going to learn more about her today. And so, as many of you dress listeners may remember, Madam Walker was the definition of a self made woman. She built this international hair care empire from the ground floor up. And Allelia, born Lelia sans the A in 1885, was there for this entire journey. And in many ways, she was the motivating factor for her mother's success. And I'd love if you just talked to us about a' Lelia's formative years and the role she dutifully played in her mother's rapidly expanding business. And I'm in particularly interested to hear about the luxury, quote unquote, beauty palace that she was instrumental in building in Harlem, New York City.
- [11:01]
A' Lelia Bundles
Sure, they were poor. I mean, Madam C.J. walker was Sarah Breedlove, a washerwoman in St. Louis, and her daughter Lelia, as you say, her birth name was Lelia. They lived in total poverty during her early years. Madam Walker's brothers had been barbers in St. Louis in the 1880s and 1890s. And after her first husband died, after Lelia's father, Moses McWilliams, died, Sarah and Lelia moved from Louisiana to St. Louis in about 1888, when Lelia was like 3 years old or so. And so, you know, she's working as a washroom, and sometimes they're near homeless. They're moving from house to house, from apartment to apartment, really poor. But they were members of Saint Paul African Methodist Episcopal Church, which was very near her brother's barbershop. And the women of the church began to give Sarah a vision of herself as something other than an illiterate washerwoman. But Lelia experienced all the poverty, a second bad marriage that Sarah had with a man who was abusive and just a bad guy. And so that was what her childhood was like. But there were moments of light within the church. Sarah was in the choir for a time. They lived across the alley from Tom Turpin's Rosebud Cafe, where Scott Joplin played. So music was always a part of their life. And I think that bonded them over time. Even though they sometimes had conflicts with each other, they both appreciated culture, and they both enjoyed sort of empowering and encouraging and sponsoring young musicians, young writers, young artists. And that kind of affinity for the arts as well as for fashion and for culture, meant that as they were developing their business, they were also thinking about the aesthetics of things. You know, they're creating products, hair care products for black women. They want people to feel confident and fashionable. So when it's time to build their salon. When a' Lelia buys property in Harlem in 1913, she does create a beauty palace designed by some of the top interior decorators in New York.
- [13:18]
April Callahan
And just to go back a little bit, lelia is, by 1907, a full partner in this growing business. She's training sales agents and cosmetologists. Her and her mother also have the college of beauty culture, named after Lilia. And just to remind listeners that while today the beauty and hair care industry is a multi billion dollar industry, Madam Walker was really at the forefront of creating it, not just for black women, but also she was this foundational and pioneering force in developing this hair care industry in general. Right. But so aal really was a really big part of this as well, and was a major reason that they established a branch in Harlem.
- [13:56]
A' Lelia Bundles
Absolutely. They were. They started. Madam Walker started in. She was in St. Louis. She was selling products for a while for Annie Malone, who later became her biggest competitor. She moved from St. Louis to Denver, married Charles Joseph Walker, then became known as Madam C.J. walker. They traveled around, settled briefly in Pittsburgh. Lelia moved to Pittsburgh, was running Lelia Beauty School of Beauty Culture. And then Madam Walker and CJ Walker moved to Indianapolis. Divorced shortly afterwards. But so now there's a headquarters in Indianapolis. Lelia's in Pittsburgh. New York is part of her territory. And as she visits New York more and more, she realizes Pittsburgh is not really as exciting as New York. So while the company is headquartered in the Midwest, where it's, you know, more financially feasible to do business, it's got great train connections running through for mail order business. New York is the media and business capital of America. And having that presence was really Lelia a' Lelia. I say both. It's interchangeable. At that point in her life, she was Lelia. She changes her name later to a' Lelia. So I hope folks can forgive me when I go back and forth, but a' Lelia persuades her mother that they should have a presence in Harlem. Well, that meant that they now have a platform that their competitors don't have. That people, anybody who's writing about Harlem and this sort of black mecca, they have to include this beautiful beauty palace that A' Lelia Walker has created in her townhouse on 136th Street.
- [15:37]
April Callahan
And I just love the way you describe it and write about it in the book. You talk about its opulence and its tranquility. One quote says, where afternoon tea was served from a Russian samovar beneath sealed high tropical palm. So it really was a luxury palace that people could go and have this incredible experience. And something else that I think is really important to note here is that when they're establishing this beauty palace, this is not necessarily the Harlem we recognize today. And something I so appreciated about the Madam Walker book, and you've brought that narrative storytelling here, is you really paint the context. You provide this entire world for us that they're living in. And so you tell us about Harlem at this time, which was 90% white.
- [16:21]
A' Lelia Bundles
It was in the process of changing. When A' lelia bought property in 1913, Harlem was still predominantly white. There were just a few blocks that. Where black people would move in and white people would move out. It was. That kind of thing was going on. And then you know, by the early 1920s, Harlem had become a certain portion of Harlem had become predominantly black. But you could see year by year, the sort of trek and migration, in a way, from block to block until eventually 125th street to 145th Street, Lenox Avenue to Edgecombe Avenue, was becoming more and more African American.
- [17:01]
April Callahan
And we're going to talk all about the Harlem Renaissance, of course, in a little bit here. But first, I still want to root us in this Pre World War I era where they're building this empire within New York City, within Harlem. And something that's really important to mention is that this is a family story, right? This is your family. This is your heritage. And in 1912 is when A' Lelia adopts your grandmother, Faerie Mae.
- [17:23]
A' Lelia Bundles
Exactly. And this is a complicated story for folks and something that I really had to untangle. So when I was growing up, my mom was vice president of the Madam C.J. walker Manufacturing Company. So I knew that we had this connection. The silverware that we used every day had Madam Walker's monogram. The baby grand piano in our living room, on which I learned to read music, had been in a' Lelia Walker's apartment in Harlem. So I knew that I had this family connection. But there was this little detour because my grandmother May, born Fairy Mae Bryant, was adopted by a' Lelia Walker. And it's the way that I have learned the story through my research, is that in St. Louis, Madam Walker, Sarah Breedlove, and her daughter Lelia, had become friendly with, obviously, other people in the congregation of St. Paul AME. But among the people they knew was a man named Elijah Hammond. When Madam Walker moved to Indianapolis in 1910, one of her neighbors happened to have been Elijah Hammond's mother. She was also a member of Bethel AME in Indianapolis. And so there was a bonding between the two. And Elijah Hammond's mother was about the same age that Madam Walker's mother would have been. So she really bonded with this person. And then she began to meet other members of the family, including Elijah's sister, Sara Etta Hammond Bryant, whose husband had just died a year or so earlier. And like three generations of women in her family, she had been widowed in her 30s with eight children. And May, my grandmother, was one of those children. May had very long braids. She had braids long enough to sit on. Madam Walker's main product was Madam Walker's wonderful hair grower. And so May became a hair model that Madam demonstrated her hair care system on. And over time, she began to develop an affection for Mae. Leilia had recently been divorced. Madam was very concerned about her and so she began to see May as a granddaughter and a' lelia adopted Mae. It was Madam Walker who had first developed the relationship, but it was A' lelia who legally adopted May. Her mother, her biological mother, was still living, but she knew that this would be an opportunity for her daughter to get an education. And in fact Mae, as promised, went to Spelman and then later became president of the company. So it is a bit of a Cinderella story. And when people read the book, they will know that there are also some difficult parts.
- [20:18]
April Callahan
I was gonna say some behind the scenes insight into that as well.
- [20:27]
Cassidy Zachary
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- [20:39]
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- [21:27]
A' Lelia Bundles
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- [21:32]
April Callahan
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- [21:35]
A' Lelia Bundles
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- [22:00]
April Callahan
I love this book too because just like with Madam Walker, you have such an incredibly rich family archive of photograph that you share with us, including of Faerie Mae when she was a model for the hair care products at this time and also of A' Lelia and Madam C.J. walker and something that becomes very apparent and of course we're going to talk about this because this is a fashion Podcast and something I, of course, noticed is that fashion was such an important part of all of these women's lives. And this is very much an important part of Madam Walker's public image and her life. She very much understood the power and influence of fashion, and the same was true for A' lelia and for May. So can you remind us about the role of fashion in their lives during this era?
- [22:46]
A' Lelia Bundles
Yeah, I think that Madam Walker had. Even when Madam Walker was poor, she was a washerwoman, which meant that she was handling other people's clothes. She was seeing what fabrics were nice fabrics, and so she had a. A sense of fashion. But she, as a poor woman, she was going to church with women who were more educated, who had more means, and she could see how they dressed. She also was living in a big city. St. Louis was a very cosmopolitan place. So even just on the streets, you would see both the women who were going to church, but you also would see the women who were going to the bordellos, who had a lot of money, who were dressing, were fancy dressers. And then there were people who. Black opera singers who would come to town, black actors and actresses who would come to town. So she could see what fashion was like. And as she began to have a little bit more money to be able to spend a little bit more, she wanted to represent the aspirations of her clients. And so she was having clothes designed by black designers. She bought a fur coat. She had beautiful hats. So she really was quite stylish. Part of it was marketing, and part of it was giving her clients some inspiration so that they might want to be a bit more fashionable.
- [24:16]
April Callahan
And they really are walking fashion plates, which is just wonderful. There's this incredible image of A' lelia during this period, and she has. I think it's from. It has to be from around 1912, because she has this incredible cartwheel hat. She has this beautiful, beautiful Directoire silhouette with that high waist and all those floral details. And she really is the height of fashion. And this is something that is going to remain true for the entirety of her life, which we're going to talk a little bit more about in a minute. But there's also something that's important to establish, and that is the fact that she is not her mother. And though she followed in her mother's footsteps and into the family business, it was not necessarily in service of her own dreams and aspirations. So I'm hoping you can share some of the similarities, but also some of the differences between A' lelia and her Mother and how that played out in their relationship. You quote one person who described them as being fire and ice.
- [25:12]
A' Lelia Bundles
Absolutely. So both really strong personalities, both charismatic. But it's hard to be in the shadow of a larger than life figure. And Lelia was always trying to do her own thing. And her mother was saying, I've built this business. I built this business because of you. It's yours to. I want you to take it to the next level. And A' Lelia wasn't always feeling like she wanted to have that responsibility. At the same time, she wanted to please her mother. So it is a complicated relationship where they would. Sometimes they would fire in the fire and ice mode. They, as their secretary told me years later, they loved each other dearly and they sometimes fought fiercely. And so I can see in their letters where Madam is trying to push Lelia in a certain direction. She wants her to take over certain aspects of the business. And A' Lelia is resisting that. Cause she has other things that she wants to do. So there's a back and forth and then they might have a big argument and then Madam will buy her a Cadillac. So she spoiled her. But they were always trying to please each other. But at the same time, sometimes they didn't have the same objectives. And I can see that as it plays out. But the thing that bonded them, that always sort of brought them back together, was this love of music and theater and young artists and musicians so they could have detente over entertaining together. And that entertaining is something that they had in common.
- [26:50]
April Callahan
And this book is an incredibly powerful and moving testament to their relationship, which, despite their differences, these women really loved each other. And then you also write about the book. A good portion of the book is about Lilia's life after Madam Walker sadly passes away in 1919. And I have to say that you write about Lilia with an honesty and a compassion that I know readers will appreciate. I certainly did. Because she's not a perfect person. And yet you. You understand that and you bring compassion to this narrative and an understanding that's really, really important to bringing her into a 360 view. Can you speak to a Lilia's personal and professional struggles in the wake of her mother's death. And this is a period when you write that her, quote, diamonds were her armor, ermine and sable her shield, but heartache was cracking her carefully constructed facade of glamour.
- [27:46]
A' Lelia Bundles
Yeah, you know, boy, I'm so glad that it comes through that there's compassion and honesty, because I really did want to tell her story as it was. And there are just some things, there's some mistakes that she makes, like most people do over a period of time. And I didn't feel that I could tell the story if I didn't tell all parts of it. And so I really tried to lean into that. And this moment of this, her fashion, that fashion being her armor, she could walk out the door and she would turn heads. I mean, one of the people who knew her said she didn't just enter a room, she swept in and she had that kind of charisma. She was a tall woman, she was always fashionably dressed. She had a beaming smile. And she was accustomed to being in the public eye, but she sometimes had to mask how she was really feeling. And at that moment in the book when I'm saying that her armor was cracking, it was because of a marriage that was falling apart. And it was a marriage that her mother had warned her against. So when Madam Walker was ill with her last illness, and A' lelia and my grandmother May were in South America because Madam wanted A' lelia to develop the business in South America, the overseas business. And so she was overseas when her mother died. But just before Madam Walker died, she wrote a letter to A' lelia about A' lelia's two boyfriends. She had two boyfriends, both doctors, both handsome. One was a good guy and one was a bad boy. And we know how that story goes.
- [29:28]
April Callahan
Yes, we do. It's not uncommon, is it?
- [29:31]
A' Lelia Bundles
It's not uncommon. This is an age old issue. Madam preferred the good guy, of course, and A' lelia was drawn to the bad boy. And in this last letter, Madam writes to her. I'm so glad you have decided to marry Dr. Kennedy and not Wiley Wilson. I never thought Wiley would make you happy, but I think Kennedy will. And I guess I want people to read the book, but I'm just.
- [30:00]
April Callahan
They don't.
- [30:01]
A' Lelia Bundles
But she. The part of the reason she needs this armor is because she married Wiley Wilson. And Wiley was doing exactly what her mother had predicted. But she still had to be on the scene because she's a public person. There was no hiding. She had to go out there and act as if everything were okay. So she's trying to manage that well.
- [30:24]
April Callahan
And something I think is really important to understand is that as you talk about in the book is she's the first black celebrity heiress. She is a celebrity. She is very well known. And this divorce happens publicly and very much under public scrutiny. And so she's dealing with that on top of everything. Else as well.
- [30:45]
A' Lelia Bundles
It was as if it's People magazine. Yes, it's on the Internet. I mean it's, you know, whatever the Internet equivalent was, it was the headline, front page headlines in the black newspapers. People are gossiping about it and every little detail of the divorce, including misinformation about it. But it's just such, such juicy gossip that people can't avoid talking about it. Yeah, but it's her life, it's her heart.
- [31:13]
April Callahan
And she was going through so much during this period. I just really felt for her too because now she's president of a company she didn't necessarily know how to or want to run. It's really important to mention Mr. Freeman Ransom, who is the business manager. He's really keeping the operations going and she's the figurehead at this period. But she really had a responsibility and people put a of responsibility onto her too that she didn't necessarily want.
- [31:39]
A' Lelia Bundles
There were a lot of expectations and already, oh, she's not the same, you know, businesswoman as her mother. Well, of course she's not because her mother created the business, she inherited the business. And even when she was trying to run things, her mother sometimes was interfering. Thank goodness for Mr. Ransom, for Freeman B. Ransom, who was their attorney and general manager, who was still in Indianapolis running the day to day operations, managing the factory, managing the sales while A' lelia was in Harlem running the Harlem office. But that's not the same as, you know, the manufacturing facility. And she just really had no interest in the ledgers and the crossing the T's and dotting the I's. I think that she began to think that her most important role, most effective role was essentially being an influencer, that she got a lot of publicity for the company, that people looked to her and some looked to her and were inspired by her and others looked at her and they were judging her.
- [32:42]
April Callahan
And as we know, as a being an influencer, especially in today's day and age, that is not something to be underrated. Right. Publicity is an incredibly important part of the success of any business. And so A' Lelia went on a journey of self discovery throughout Europe and America starting in 1921. 1. I would love if you could share some stories from her world travels, starting with her fashionable sojourn in Paris where she spent some time via invitation I might add, on the city's famed luxury shopping street, the Rue de la Paix, at the invitation of Cartier. But maybe a few haute couturiers as well.
- [33:18]
A' Lelia Bundles
You know, I listen, I'm So lucky that my family saved all of these things. I have the invitation to Cartier.
- [33:28]
April Callahan
Amazing.
- [33:28]
A' Lelia Bundles
I have her travel diary where she talks about arriving in Paris and going to dinner with Louis and Antoinette Mitchell, her friends. Louis Mitchell was a famous jazz musician who played at one of the hottest clubs in Paris, Casino de Paris. And a' Lelia Walker describes these friendships. And she goes to Monte Carlo and she sees the yachts and goes to the palace, goes to Addis Ababa, where she visits the Ethiopian empress, spends time in Cairo and Alexandria, visits the pyramids. So she is really, I don't know, it's kind of Eat, pray, love from 1921 and 22. And in Paris, she also meets Paul Poiret, the designer. And then when he comes to the United States, she has a party for him. So she's now she is seriously on the haute couture, see?
- [34:22]
April Callahan
Yeah. And you mentioned Jean Patu, her purchasing some of Jean Patu's designs. So clearly you have evidence of that in the archive. So really, when. When I say she is high fashion, she is high fashion. She can afford Parisian haute couture and she is wearing it on the streets of Paris and something she certainly brings back with her to the United States upon her return. And really, she was a formidable presence. You write about how she turned heads every time she entered a room. She was a tall, fashionable dressed black woman in a sea of Europeans. And this really put her on display. And she's commented on and written about. And you. You quote a lot of these sources at the time that call her a majestic figure, an Ethiopian Artemis who had the bearing of a young goddess. She's an incredibly striking woman.
- [35:11]
A' Lelia Bundles
She was visiting the Vatican, it happened to be during a week when a new pope was being selected. So there were lots of people in Vatican Square and she was one of the only brown people. And so even though there were some other famous, powerful people in the crowd, she was written about in one of the papers in Rome.
- [35:32]
April Callahan
Yeah. And just a couple more quotes address listeners about how she really understood the power of fashion and how when people write about her, they're writing about what she's wearing. Someone called her more gorgeous than a Ziegfeld finale, A Ziegfeld Follies finale. Another quote. You say, the elevator boy must have thought it was the Queen of Sheba, for she was dressed, dressed in such jewels and furs and turbans and silks, as you can hardly imagine. And I believe that's a contemporary source from the period. And then another source says hung and strung with all her trophies, beads and pins and diamond arrows across her chest. And I love again, and hopefully you'll allow us to share some of these images of her with our dress listeners because she just was so incredibly fashion forward. And just as Madam Walker no doubt influenced A' lelia's relationship with fashion, so too did a' lelia have an influence on May, your grandmother, who was also a walking fashion plate. And this is no more exemplified than in the fashions on display during her wedding day and festivities. And what and who did Mae wear on this day?
- [36:32]
A' Lelia Bundles
My grandmother May got married in November 1923. It was to someone she did not want to marry. So it was an arranged marriage that A' lelia had engineered. But Mae was fashionably dressed, as were all the bridesmaids and the groomsmen who were in mourning coats and spats. The bridesmaids had beautiful Chantilly lace over silver. And May's dress had been designed by a woman in Philadelphia, Pearl Crawford Croft. I cannot find any. I've not so far been able to find any more information about her, but her name is mentioned in the newspaper. The headdress that May wore was inspired by King Tut, whose tomb had been opened not that long before. And it was designed by Mildred Blunt, who was the hat designer for Gone with the Wind, an African American woman who credited a' Lelia Walker with her first major commission.
- [37:36]
April Callahan
Yeah. Which is just incredible. And I actually believe. Does Mae's wedding dress survive in the Walker archive?
- [37:42]
A' Lelia Bundles
I have what's called the understood slip. It's a beautiful satin, hand appliqued. It looks like a slip, but it's a very fancy dress. You could wear it to a cocktail party. And there was apparently an overlay that was sea pearls. I don't have those. I don't know where those went. But it was described in the newspaper that as she walked down the aisle, the pearls rattled with each step.
- [38:10]
April Callahan
Oh, wow. And I love it too, because she's again, speaking to high fashion. She's wearing her and her bridesmaids, I believe, are all wearing the robe distille style of that era, which is famously associated with Jeanne Lanvin, but really is counter to the shift dresses of those period and provides a more romantic kind of homage to 18th century fashion. So she really has this romantically beautiful wedding dress, not reflective of the marriage. But you'll just have to read the book to find out more about that.
- [38:38]
A' Lelia Bundles
Listen, and thank you for that description. I wish I had had that beautiful description of yours that was in contrast to the shift dresses because I would have included that line in the book.
- [38:56]
Cassidy Zachary
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- [39:20]
A' Lelia Bundles
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A' Lelia Bundles
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- [39:58]
April Callahan
And you mentioned Egyptian inspiration, and we actually forgot to talk about Sojourn into Egypt because that was part of her European and then African adventures and travels. And you mentioned, of course, that some of the pieces from that trip survived. That's what you found in those trunks as a little girl. So I would actually love if you would talk a little bit more about some of the other surviving fashions and accessories from A' Lelia that still survive in the archive.
- [40:26]
A' Lelia Bundles
Yes, I do have some of a' lelia Walker's clothes. I have a couple of coats. One a beautiful turquoise iridescent coat that has monkey fur trim. Another wonderful paisley coat that has, I think it's mink, mink trim, you know, a couple of dresses, a couple of turbans. None of the diamonds, unfortunately. I think those were pawned during the Depression. But she was so fashionable when she traveled overseas. She had a couple of trunks at least. And when she's written about in the newspaper, some of those outfits are described. And I do have a few pictures from Egypt, she was very intentional about having her picture taken and documenting where she was. And so when she went on a tour to the pyramids, and I'm sure there were photographers hanging around just as they always do in any tourist trap. So I have five or six pictures of her with a camel with a tent in front of the pyramids, in front of the Sphinx, another one at the Shepherd Hotel, and you can see that she's very fashionable, but also that she's making sure that there's a document of her visit.
- [41:41]
April Callahan
And this trip was incredibly important and must be said, in terms of the trajectory of her life, it really was the beginning of her transformation that would only continue upon her return when she adds the A to the beginning of her name. And when she really comes into her celebrity salon hostess era, she becomes this incredible patron of the arts. And this is when she earns that status as one of the defining figures of the Harlem Renaissance. Can you please tell us about how she earned poet Langston Hughes praise as, quote, the joy goddess of Harlem's 1920s?
- [42:14]
A' Lelia Bundles
So Langston Hughes was one of the bright lights of the Harlem Renaissance, the artists and writers and musicians and actors. And he was just really taken with a' lelia. And she with him, she really enjoyed being around these talented young people. And he attended a few of her parties. He actually was present when she was discussing creating what would become the Dark Tower, a cultural salon that's now iconic in the memory of anything, any conversation about the Harlem Renaissance. But Langston Hughes called a' Lelia Walker, the joy goddess of Harlem's 1920s because of these great parties she gave. And part of the secret sauce of the parties, yes, it was, you know, great food and libations during prohibition that were adult beverages.
- [43:04]
April Callahan
When you talk about her personal bootlegger, I love that I laughed out loud.
- [43:09]
A' Lelia Bundles
It also was the combination of people that she brought together. And as you say, part of that transformation to her being more international was this overseas trip in 1921 and 22. She met lots of people at every stop, whether she was in Nice and she was entertained by friends or in Paris, where she met a wide range of people, or Palestine or Addis. Everywhere she went, she was meeting people who were open to friendships. And so when those people or their friends would come to the United States, they always would find her. They would look her up. And so she started entertaining on a smaller level. And then by the mid to late 1920s, her place was the place to be. You know, one person, Max Ewing, who wrote letters to his mother in Ohio, described the scene over and over again. He would mention her, and he said there were people who came together who otherwise never would have been in the same room but for a' lelia. And she just had that knack for bringing together her international friends, her African friends, Caribbean, European, African American, queer, straight, old, young, white, black. I mean, people came together because she created an environment that made people feel welcome.
- [44:35]
April Callahan
And she did so right within her Dark Tower Cultural salon, which opened on the 15th of October, 1927, which really, it must be said, dressed listeners, when you think about 1920s Harlem Renaissance. This place, this meeting ground, really embodies that. Can you talk about a little bit more about the dark tower, what it was, who she developed it with and for, and the people that were meeting there.
- [44:59]
A' Lelia Bundles
A' lelia Walker had been entertaining in her townhouse on 136th street ever since she moved there in 1913. By 1924, Harlem had begun to change, and the area around the townhouse near Lenox Avenue had just really gotten to be quite commercial and quite busy. So she moved her personal residence to a small apartment on Edgecombe Avenue, just a few blocks away, but near the park, much quieter, and the townhouse, which is where the beauty salon was. She began to rent out some of the rooms at what she called the Walker studio. So people would have private parties or receptions, wedding receptions, you know, other kinds of gatherings. And so the Walker studio had this sort of mystique of a connection to madam Walker and to a' lelia Walker, and people wanted to have events there. In 1927, she decided that she wanted to do something more to encourage and promote some of the young writers, like Langston Hughes and Countee Cullen. They had been awarded prizes at a dinner that was hosted by opportunity magazine in 1924 and 25. And so she wanted to support them. So she got together with a designer, Paul Frankel, who was an Austrian furniture designer, who was known for these sort of contemporary, avant garde pieces of furniture. And she told him her idea. She said, I want a club. I want a place where people can come together. Not a nightclub. She was specific. Not a nightclub, but a place where people can have discussions and where writers can talk about their work and where there's music. And so he created this scene for her with this beautiful bookcase as well as dishes and silverware and tables that were custom designed. You know, that was very much like a very comfortable hangout place. And the original idea was that she would have the young writers, the starving artists who would come, they would pay a $1 a year membership, and then her wealthier friends would take out a membership and more expensive sponsorship, and then somehow everything would work out, and those starving artists would be able to come and eat for free, and the other people would be able to interact with them. Well, that was a really sort of forward thinking model, very visionary.
- [47:23]
April Callahan
And something I think that's really important, too, is that not all of the people agreed, right? You talk about the old black high society and the new guard and the conflicts and debates that are happening within black society at this time. As well. And those are happening quite literally on the walls of the Dark Tower because you have poems by Langston Hughes and poems by County. Two very, very different men with very, very different perspectives. And both of those were welcome there.
- [47:52]
A' Lelia Bundles
When a' Lelia Walker was thinking about the Dark Tower, it really was to be a celebration of the young writers and the young creatives, but there were definitely warring factions almost. And I think Count T. Cullen and Langston Hughes were the personification of that. They were what we now call frenemies, right? And Langston Hughes poem the Weary Blues was on one wall at the Dark Tower, and it was in fact, a blues. And Countee Cullen's from the Dark Tower was on the other wall. And it was much more a sonic. He was much more conservative in his expression and traditional. And both of those things were going on. People were trying to master the traditional, but also infuse the African. African American heritage. And a' Lelia Walker's place had room for all of that.
- [48:47]
April Callahan
It really was just such an incredible place and one that was ahead of its time. Can you tell us what happened to the Dark Tower and what happened to a' Lelia?
- [48:58]
A' Lelia Bundles
A couple of things were going on. So it opened, of course, to great fanfare. And the opening night, it was crowded. It was wall to wall. There were people who had come from downtown who really did think it was just another new nightclub. And that was not a' Lelia Walker's vision. But then she had begun to have health problems, actually, in 1924, she'd had a stroke. And by 1927, she was. Her health was back, but she also now had remarried. And now she married the good guy, Dr. Kennedy. But he was based in Tuskegee. He had become the number two at the Veterans Hospital, the black veterans hospital there. And so she was trying to do a long distance relationship and worry about her business. And so she was really pulled in a lot of directions. And after the Dark Tower opened to great success, she then spent several months away trying to tend to her marriage and trying to tend to Walker Co. Business. And there she left someone else in charge of it. That person mismanaged things. And when she came back, she was dealing with that. She put things back in order and was celebrating the second anniversary. That went off fine. And then by the time it was, she was ready to celebrate the third anniversary. They had a big reception. But a few days before that, the market had crashed on Wall street and it was the beginning of the Great Depression. So even though they were able to get to that third anniversary, the world was falling apart.
- [50:33]
April Callahan
Right.
- [50:33]
A' Lelia Bundles
And it couldn't sustain itself.
- [50:36]
April Callahan
Yeah. And so the dark tower, like so many other things we associate with the 1920s, really remains exclusive to that era. Something perhaps imitated, but something that could never really truly be recreated. And we've really only scratched the surface of this woman's remarkable life. For our listeners who are going to read the book and learn so, so much more about her, how do you want A' lelia to be remembered?
- [51:03]
A' Lelia Bundles
I hope people will see a complex, charismatic woman who, in trying to find her own light and in trying to find her own path, brought a lot of joy to other people. She loved music, she loved the actors, she loved the writers of the era. And she also was a really very politically conscious woman. She wasn't demonstrating on the street in that way, but she was creating a space where people could express themselves. And sometimes we just think of the Harlem Renaissance and the Jazz Age as lots of parties and lots of. And, you know, people dancing and drinking and all of that. But it also, in many ways, was a response to some negative things that were going on. It was a response to Woodrow Wilson really being quite a racist president and segregating federal offices. It was a response to lynching that was going on. It was a response to not having a lot of opportunities for African Americans, but this desire to express oneself. As people were moving to the cities, leaving the farms, getting away from Jim Crow in the south and coming to the big cities, this young group of artists and writers and musicians and actors were there together creating art, creating expression, and saying how proud they were of their heritage. And a' lelia Walker created a space where that could be expressed.
- [52:42]
April Callahan
And her role, really, as a patron of the arts of this period is really personified by the fact that Langston Hughes did read a poem he wrote for her at her funeral, which I thought was just such an incredibly beautiful and moving way. You didn't necessarily end the book with it, but it's in the concluding chapter about her life and the importance of her life and the mark that she made on people that she encountered.
- [53:08]
A' Lelia Bundles
So Langston Hughes was good friends with Carl Van Vechten, as was A' Lelia Walker. And many people will know his name from the Harlem Renaissance. And I talk about him in the novel he wrote where A' lelia was a character, a fictional character in the book. But when A' lelia died, Langston Hughes had just come back from Cuba. He was staying at the YMCA in Harlem, and. And Carl Van Vechten encouraged him to write a poem for A' lelia to be read at her funeral. And Langston wrote this amazing poem for A' lelia's funeral called For A' Lelia. And it reminds me very much of Elton John's song for Princess Diana. It talks about a queen of the night, so it's not quite a candle in the wind, but it is a very similar kind of thing. She lived her life. Don't cry for her. She doesn't want our tears, she wants our laughter. And it really did personify who A' Lelia Walker was. Langston Hughes really captured that.
- [54:10]
April Callahan
Yes, as did you. Thank you so much for this beautiful book. I know our listeners are going to rush out and read it. Thank you so much for sharing her life with us.
- [54:21]
A' Lelia Bundles
Thank you. Always a pleasure to be with you, a' Lelia.
- [54:24]
Cassidy Zachary
Thank you so much for joining us to share your great grandmother's incredible life. And Cass, as you mentioned mentioned, this interview barely touches the surface of an incredibly rich and textual history of not just A' lelia's life, but this era of great artistic and cultural expression.
- [54:41]
April Callahan
Yes, and A' Lilia has done a fantastic job of bringing one of its great contributors and central figures to Life and Dress Listeners. I highly recommend getting your hands on both of A' Lilia's books on Her Own Ground, the Life and Times of Madam C.J. walker and Joy Goddess A' Lelia Walker and the Harlem Renaissance, both of which can be found at a link in our show notes. And for our audiobook fans, a' Lilia also read the audio version of the A' Lelia Walker book, so check both of those out.
- [55:09]
Cassidy Zachary
And you are not going to want to miss this week's social media post to accompany today's episode, which can be found at the hashtag dressed550. Wow. 550 episodes, Cass. Can you believe it?
- [55:20]
April Callahan
Congratulations to us.
- [55:23]
Cassidy Zachary
That does it for us today. Dressed listeners. Until next time. Next time, may you find the joy residing in your closet. Next time you get dressed, please head to Eressed podcast on Instagram or Rest Podcast without the underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.
- [55:43]
April Callahan
And remember, we always love hearing from you, so if you'd like to write to us, you can do so at. Hello DressedHistory.com DressedHistory.com is also our website website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses. And you can check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.
- [56:01]
Cassidy Zachary
We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books. So if you are interested you can always find a link in our show Notes to our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop drop dressed and there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles.
- [56:22]
April Callahan
And do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? You can now sign up for Ad free listening with any tier on our Dressed History Patreon where you can also chat with your fellow fashion history lovers and attend one of our live Q and as and so much more.
- [56:36]
Cassidy Zachary
We are also excited to now be part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free history so subscription Airwave History plus available on Apple Podcasts. The subscription brings dress and also 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for just $5.99 per month. More information on Patreon and Airwave is available at the link in our bio.
- [57:00]
April Callahan
Thank you as always for tuning in and more Dressed coming your way very soon. The History of Fashion is a production of True Trust Media.
- [57:12]
Cassidy Zachary
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