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Dressed: The History of Fashion
Navajo Weaving: Art, History, Practice with Lynda Teller Pete and Barbara Teller Ornelas, Part I (Dressed Classic)
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- [00:02]
April Callahan
On WhatsApp, no one can see or.
- [00:04]
Cassidy Zachary
Hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or.
- [00:08]
April Callahan
Sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this.
- [00:13]
Cassidy Zachary
So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay.
- [00:22]
April Callahan
Between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us.
- [00:27]
Cassidy Zachary
WhatsApp message privately with everyone with the Venmo Debit card, you can Venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this or their next show, you can Venmo that. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license by MasterCard International Incorporated Card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply.
- [00:45]
April Callahan
Dress Listeners Bonjour from Paris.
- [00:48]
Cassidy Zachary
Yes, we are currently on our annual summer hiatus from the show as we conduct our summer fashion History tours of the City of Lights. But worry not, we will be back in August with brand new content dedicated to all of the exciting fashion history exhibitions and other behind the scenes experiences we have encountered while here.
- [01:06]
April Callahan
Until then, please enjoy this episode from the Dressed archive of over 500 past shows. The History of Fashion is a production of dressed media. With over 8 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day we all get dressed.
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Cassidy Zachary
Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your host.
- [01:48]
April Callahan
April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary the finely woven rugs, blankets and tapestries of the Navajo people or Dine as the Navajo refer to themselves, so you will hear us use these terms somewhat interchangeably today. Those textiles are some of the most well known and admired in the entire world, which is why we are so excited to bring to you this week an in depth look into the sacred cultural practice and art form of Navajo weaving. And there is no better way to take that deep dive than with today's guests and they are the internationally acclaimed authors, educators and fifth generation Navajo weavers and sisters Linda Teller Pete and Barbara Teller Ornellis.
- [02:31]
Cassidy Zachary
In addition to producing world renowned weavings, the sisters have shared their knowledge and personal experience with both Native and non.
- [02:39]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
Native individuals around the world, educating audiences.
- [02:43]
Cassidy Zachary
About Navajo history and the practice and preservation of Navajo weaving traditions through numerous classes, workshops and collaborations with museums, univers, universities and art centers. And this includes most recently the Bard Graduate Centers shaped by the Loom Weaving worlds in the American Southwest which is on view in New York City until July 9. Together, they have written two books, Spider Woman's Children, Navajo Weavers Today, which is the first book written about Danae weavers by Danae Weavers. And also how to Weave a Navajo.
- [03:16]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
Rug and other lessons from Spider Woman.
- [03:18]
Cassidy Zachary
The first Danae written how to guide. And we are so pleased to welcome the sister to the show.
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April Callahan
Barbara, Linda, welcome to Dressed. I am so excited to talk to you both today. Thank you for joining me.
- [03:29]
Cassidy Zachary
Thank you.
- [03:30]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
You're welcome. Okay, so before we start, we need to introduce ourselves. I'll introduce us in Navajo, and then Linda will translate it for us, for the people. So Shay, Barbara Teller, Ornella, Deja deja. Linda tell.
- [04:02]
Cassidy Zachary
Good morning. My sister Barbara just introduced herself. We normally have to recite all four of our clans. We are born for our mother's clan, which is Edgewater, I should say we are born into our mother's clan, which is Edgewater, and we are born for our father's clan, which is two waters that flow together. And then we have to cite all of our grandfather's clans and stuff. And so this is usually how we establish kinship. And if there are other Navajos in the audience, this is how we learn how to address each other. So it's. It's the formality of stating who you are, where you come from. And Barbara mentioned that we originally are from the Tugra Hill, Newcomb Talina area of the Navajo Nation where we grew up. There's a huge rug weaving community in. In all three of those communities. And that our parents are Sam and Ruth Teller. They both have passed, but they have been very instrumental in how we grew up. And Barbara and I are fifth generation Navajo weavers, and that's who we are.
- [05:01]
April Callahan
And I was reading, too, that your family tradition of weaving spans seven generations, too, because you have not only yourselves, but also your children and grandchildren who are also weavers.
- [05:12]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
I have two children. My daughter Sierra, my son Michael, and they're fifth generation. And then we, Lynn and I, share our granddaughter, who is our grand. Our older sister Roseanne's grand granddaughter, and she's our seventh generation.
- [05:26]
April Callahan
Wonderful. And can you tell us a little bit more about the significance of weaving to your family and your family's history?
- [05:32]
Cassidy Zachary
Well, we. We were born into it. So I teasingly talk about this as born into, like a mafia, you know, you can never get out. So, you know, when we were born, we were destined to be weavers. And as we grew up, Barbara's older than me, and she started her weaving under our Paternal grandmother. And then when I came along, when we stayed home for summers, our father built this loom that would. Where we would sit facing each other. And so we were expected to weave. Probably not every day. When you're a kid, you think that you were really tortured by being this child laborer, but it really wasn't true because, you know, now as I am an adult, and I know how much weaving takes place, I know we didn't weave every day, and we didn't weave more than probably 20 minutes at a time. But for me, it was like. It just felt, yeah, as a kid, you just want to play outside and whatever. But Barbara and I sat facing each other, and as sisters, you don't always get along. And so. And it's always me trying to instigate something. And so I would pick up my weaving tools and poke it through my warps, trying to bug her as she was weaving. And then once my mother would hear us hollering, she would come and try to put a sheet between the two looms so that we wouldn't see each other. And those are my earliest memories of growing up and weaving. And, you know, I just assume everybody knew how to weave, because in our community, there are so many of our extended relatives who were weavers. And we come from an area to great hills where there were rock stars of. Of women weavers. Daisy Tuckle Cheek, she's probably the one. One of the most famous. She's from the Tallinna area. There's so many other really well known weavers that came out of our area, and they're well known for the two great hills style. And so as we grew up, that's all we knew. And once we got out in the world is when we figured out not everybody knows how to weave. Not even all Navajo people know how to weave. So that was a big. It was a big disconnect for me where I couldn't fathom Navajo people not knowing how to weave.
- [07:47]
April Callahan
And, Barbara, do you have an earliest memory of weaving?
- [07:50]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
The earliest I can remember is sitting with my paternal grandmother, Nellie Taylor, and in her hogan in white Rock, New Mexico, which is like, between Bistai Badlands and Crown Point. And our grandparents live way out in the middle of nowhere. No running water, no electricity, no nothing. You know, coming from our dad being a trader at Tuber Hill Trading post. So we used to electricity, indoor plumbing, and, you know, all that stuff. And then to go from that to our grandparents's home, is this like a real change? But I remember her teaching me and telling me Stories and hearing her songs and hearing her prayers and just, you know, what weaving means to the, our people and our family and how it's important for me to be a weaver, you know, and she always mentioned to me that I was blessed by the weaving gods and that I was given this gift and I shouldn't waste it. I was 4 or 5, 6 years old when she was telling me all this, and I'm just not really paying attention to what, what she was telling me. And then one time she woke up from a nap and she, she was like, I had a dream about you. She goes, I, I saw you traveling the world. I saw you getting on airplanes. I see you telling people about our work. I see you telling people that we exist and that our work is valuable and, and I just, I thought she was crazy. And. But it wasn't until I was going to do a residency at the British Museum in London and getting on an airplane in Albuquerque. And her words just came back to me. He goes, someday you're going to travel the world and tell people about our work. And I'm like, how did she see this? How did that, how did it happen? You know? And since that was like in 19, 1985, somewhere around there and when I was first travel for my work and then, since then I've traveled to many, many countries and done a lot of weaving workshops and with different indigenous weavers all over world. And her words still come to me when I get on the plane and I'm sitting there like, okay, grandma, we're going to use Pakistan. We're going to, you know, Kyrgyzstan or we're going to Peru or, you know, something. And so I cherish those moments being with her. And she started teaching me how to do twill weaving, which is a huge no no for tuber hill weavers. But she was a free spirit. She really did any kind of weaving. She put her mind to it. And then when she would do it too gray or our maternal grandmother Susie Tom would freak out because she's like, she's not a two gray hill weaver. She shouldn't be weaving two great hills, you know, And. But our grandma Nelly, she just woke what she saw. She just, and she would tell me, see things with your mind, see the patterns with your mind. It's all going to come together for you. I was really young and I couldn't see what she was talking about. So I take a little piece of paper and draw it out, you know, and stuff, and stick it under my sheepskin as I'm sitting There weaving. And. And then the morning when she's cleaning, she would shake out my sheepskin, and all these papers come flying out, and she's like, can't do this. You got to see it up here. You know? And. And then just one day, it just clicked. It just clicked, you know? And then she kept saying, you were born for this. This was why you were given this gift. And I never really understood that until I started teaching my son. And my son kind of gravitated towards it, like he already knew what he was doing. And I remember my grandma says, I didn't have to tell you two or three times how to do something you already knew once I tell you how to do it. And that was my son. And I believe that he's also born to do this, to be a weaver.
- [12:00]
April Callahan
Absolutely. And you both have really built this incredible life and career, sharing your gift and your art and the culture and history of Navajo weaving with the world. You've written two wonderful books together. The first is Spider Woman's Children, Navajo Weavers Today, and then most recently, how to Weave a Navajo Rug and Other Lessons from Spider Woman. Both are deeply personal narratives that chronicle also the history and significance of weaving to yourselves and to the Dine people. I'd love if you could share with us who Spider Woman is and also Spider man and what is their significance to Navajo weaving.
- [12:37]
Cassidy Zachary
I'd like to back up a little bit and give you an explanation on the two grandmothers. We have a paternal grandmother, and we have maternal. And the one that Barbara was speaking of is our paternal. And the economic differences between those two women in that generation. Fourth generation of our weavers was very, very wide. Our maternal grandmother lived from rug to rug, and she had a hard time making a living because she had two families to support. And while our paternal grandmother had land base, she had animals. She had. She didn't need to sell her pieces, rugs. So we have a lot of her pieces still with us. Because she wove for the families. And because of the two grandmothers being so different, our maternal grandmother had us had a second set of family. And so we didn't learn a lot of the history. We didn't learn the things about Spider Woman from her. Everything that we know about Spider Man, Spider Woman, the gift of weaving, everything, you know, the songs and the prayers came from our paternal side. And on the Navajo Nation, there are a lot of different regions. And where my. My grandfather came from. Paternal grandfather is from Kenyan D. Shay. And Kenyan D. Shay is home to Spider Rock, where our holy person, our deity, Spider Woman, lived. And so the stories that we heard when we were little was about her. And most of the time, some stories are used for disciplinary things. And in Spider Rock, they say that bad children get taken up to the top of the rock. And so you behave.
- [14:18]
April Callahan
Very high rock.
- [14:19]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. And so you behave. And. And plus, we' visiting. So my parents didn't want us children to be unruly and just acting crazy like we do at home. And so at an early age, we knew that Spider Woman was a disciplinarian and that she was very focused and that she took chances. And Barbara and I are now at a different part in our career where we're teachers, we're authors, we're scholars. And so we talked to our medicine men, and we have. We have three of them that we go to for protection, for re blessings, for, to bless all of our weaving tools and everything. And the one that we went to from Kenny D. Shay, we talked to him about the protocols because Spider Woman and Spider man, who was her husband, who made all the tools and looms, had set out some values for weavers to follow. Some of them, I think, are akin to, like, taboos. Like, you can't weave at night, you can't weave during a thunderstorm, you can't weave during the rain. These are, you know, things are happening outside that is nourishing the earth. So you have to respect that. And so there's all kinds of protocols that we follow that were set by Spider Woman and Spider Man. And, you know, how we touch our looms, how we treat our tools, everything. There's a protocol for that. And so as we were talking to the medicine man, he said, when you're starting out, you have to abide by all this, those rules. When you're growing up in a weaving family, you have to follow those protocols. But you guys, as you go up in your career, you're now at a point where you are Spider Woman. So Barbara and I refer to ourselves as Spider Woman. And so he said, those protocols and everything, you have graduated from that. And so we don't have to abide by some of these rules. And because our lives are so busy, Barbara and I travel a lot. We do a lot of consultations with different museums. You know, like the Bard, we've been working on that museum with Hadley Jensen for years. And then Covid happened, and we had to put the project on hold. And so a lot of the things that we do because we travel, we have to weave on the off times. So we can't really abide by the protocols that were set. And he said, no, there are certain times that you, you are Spider Woman, you make the rules. And so, you know, that's comfort because there's a part of us that we're rule followers. And so we get a little bit disoriented, especially with time zones and stuff. And so it's kind of hard to predict, like, you know, should I not be weaving because I'm from the mountain time and all that kind of stuff. And so, you know, it's, it's difficult to, to follow a lot of cultural rules, especially in this modern day and age. And, and I think that some of those taboos were because of the economic strains on weavers back then. Not having electricity, not having butane to, to run their little lamps so they couldn't weave at night. You know, there's so many things out there that we have to compromise on now because our world is changing and we are now living in, in a fast paced world with technology. And so we're, we're adapting to that and still using that technology to teach, to improve our weaving techniques. You know, we're, we're just going with the times. And so I think that's how Spider Woman meant it to be when she was tasked with her to weave a map of the universe. And so with Barbara and I doing that, we are still mapping things out for our students.
- [18:02]
April Callahan
Well, and I'm so glad you mentioned that about living in this fast paced world too, because something we talk about a lot on the podcast is just how in this fast fashion mechanized, industrial world, there are still people like yourselves who are, are creating using these age old techniques and traditions and very much keeping that alive and working with your hands and, and, you know, the connection to the object. And those beautiful histories and stories live on thanks to people like you. And for our listeners who might not know, can you just tell us a little bit more about the Spider Woman creation story? Who she, who Spider man was in relationship to weaving?
- [18:42]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
There's so many different versions of the stories. We all as Navajo people have our own versions of Spider Woman stories. And then the stories that we get is from our paternal grandmother, Nelly Teller, and our grandfather. And because he came from Canyon Duchell, we always assume he knew Spider women as children were like, did you really see her? You know, like you, you live in the same area as she did. It was always told as a story. Like Spider Woman wanted to gift the Navajo weaver, Navajo women something that would take care of them so they don't have to live in poverty. They don't have to worry about their next meal or anything like that. She went to our four sacred mountains, and she found wood from one of the mountains. She found plants and stuff, colors from one. She went to where the thunder gods live in the mountain and asked for designs. She. So there's always these different elements that she put together. And then she took it, and she brought all that with her to. To the gods and asked if she could figure out a way to put all this together to create something, you know, as a gift for Navajo women. And so they told her that if you would watch a spider, and the spider weaves a web, and then, you know, maybe you can get some ideas from there. So she. She observed the spiders for a while, figured out how she was going to put olives, materials that she had together. So she built a loom under the loom that she built. The bottom loom represents the earth bar, and the top part of the loom represents the. The sky bar. And then the side wood represents day and night. And when you have your warp set up, the strings that are coming down like that represent rain. And so you have two different warp sets. And the top warp is a male warp, and then the bottom is the female warp. And it's like that represents male rain and female rain, and they switch back and forth. And the batten that goes in between the rain is a thunderbolt. It's called bag in klish in Navajo, you know. And so she had all these things, and so she was able to put it together and figured out how to put the looms together. And she. When she figured that out, she took it to. And Spider man was the one who built the loom, and he was the one who did most of the grunt work for her. And while she was trying to figure out how to. To do the. The weaving part in the real world, people always say, how come you guys don't copyright your work? How come you don't, you know, you should copyright your work? And they were like, we can't, because. Because all those patterns belong to the thunder gods. Like, I asked permission to use them, and then I have to put them back because Lynn might be interested in using them. Maybe my daughter wants to use them, maybe my son wants to use them, or somebody else from a different part of the reservation who wants to use them. So there's. It's really hard to copyright something that technically doesn't belong to you, but it belongs to you. And she put all these things together, and she was Able to figure out how to, to, to do the weaving part. And she was able to teach Navajo women how to, to weave. And I remember as a child, my grandfather used to tell me, keep weaving, keep weaving, my little one. Keep weaving, because this is going to hold your family together. You'll never go hungry. You always have a roof over your head. And he goes, and that's the blessing from Spider Woman.
- [22:42]
Cassidy Zachary
And one thing that I want to add too, is that when we go through the step, the sky bar the earth bar the day and night, the, the female rain, the thunderbolt. And then on the loom, there's that little, where we had the tension. And that's the rainbow area, not a lead. And that's the very creative part for a weaver. So when you get stuck, you know, you have to put your hands up there and try to work out what is challenging you. And I also think that Spider Woman also did not hit upon her formula from the get go. She had to go through many, many trials she had. She was challenged by everything. And that's how weavers are today. We get challenged. We have to work things out. We have to troubleshoot. And so what we do is not easy. And the other thing too is that when we sit at our loom, we're basically sitting at our universe. We have the sky bar the earth bar the, the night and day. We have the rain. We have all the, the environmental elements at our loom. Every morning that you wake up after you do your prayers, you sit at your loom and you're basically at the window of the universe. And you, you yourself decide how you're going to turn your day. You know, is it going to be a good day, a good day of weaving? There's also challenges to that. Sometimes your, your designs aren't worked out, and then you have to go back to your math. So when Spider Woman was working things out, she had to implore math, geometry, algebra, all of these stem subjects were part of creating a weaving. And, and I, I, I think that once you grasp that math, it's much easier as a weaver if you know your math. And we also have to go back to the root words of all the supplies that we have. And when Barbara mentioned that our grandfather said to her, weaving will feed your family, that is true. Because the root word of the warp in Navajo is nano j. And the word for warp is nano j. But the root word of that means hunting. That means you go out and hunt and get food for your family. Same thing with the loom. You use your Warp to warp your new piece. And that feeds your family. So there's a lot of words that are not by accident. They're actually, you know, these things that Spider Woman and Spider man put in place for us to continue to learn on.
- [25:20]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
And we were always told to make sure that we're in balance before you start weaving in front of your loom. You can't be sad, you can't be angry. You can't, because you're.
- [25:30]
Cassidy Zachary
You're.
- [25:30]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
Weaving is a living spirit and it takes on your feelings, your vibe, you know? So you always have to make sure that you're in balance when you're sitting in front of your room. We were always told that, that you don't ever talk bad about your work. You don't ever say, this doesn't look good or this looks horrible, I'm a horrible weaver, or whatever, because the rug, the weaving will take that on and then it won't shine for somebody to be sold. So you have to be very, very careful with your words in front of your loom. You have to be very, very careful just in life, you know, with your words and how you treat your loom, how you treat your people. It's almost the same.
- [26:14]
April Callahan
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Cassidy Zachary
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Barbara Teller Ornellis
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Cassidy Zachary
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Barbara Teller Ornellis
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- [27:45]
April Callahan
Can you tell us a little bit more about the process of weaving, maybe beginning with the loom and the tools. You've written this wonderful book that takes people through that process and I'd love if you could share a little bit more about it with us here.
- [27:57]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
Well, I can talk about the preparation of the weaving part and then, then I'll talk about the tools and. Because her husband's the one who makes all our tools. A long time ago, like when my mom and my two aunts and my grandma grandmothers were here, both aunts would have had flocks of sheep and they would all get together and they would shear all the wool from the sheep. And as two gray hill weavers, the most prized wool you can have is the dark brown. You know, that beautiful dark brown that, that we use as our infill color. And so they always cherish that. Then that's the most thing they take care of was that. But they would all get together and they would all shear the sheep and they would all start washing them and cleaning them and stuff and then putting them out outside so they can dry. And then once it's dried, it was our job as kids to sit there and fluff up the bowl so it doesn't felt. And after fluff it up and then they have groups of like micro cousins and, and my aunts and they would sit there and they would card the wool and then they, you know, once the carding was done then somebody would be in charge of doing first spin and then second spin, third spin. Third spin was like the finest that you can do. And then the in between there you have like white wool and you have black wool. And the black wool is dyed with aniline dye, but it's dyed before it got spun into a yarn. And and so because a lot of it was used to mix colors. And so you had your carding tool where you put a little bit of white and a little bit of black and then you mix it and you get different shades of gray or you put a little bit of brown and a little bit of white and you get different versions of light brown. And depending on how much color you put in from if you put a lot more white and then a little bit of black you get the light grays. Or if it's reverse where it's more black than white. Then you get the dark grays, you know, so they just had a technique, and they had a system down that they used to. To. To make. And their motto was always make sure you make way more than enough, because you just. You need, you know, this yarn to last year, at least two or three pieces.
- [30:25]
Cassidy Zachary
And.
- [30:25]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
And. But they would sit there and they would laugh, and they would tell jokes, and they would drink coffee and have donuts, you know, and stuff. And it was just like a party. Going from being a fluffer out to. To learning how to card and then learning how to spin. That was the ultimate, was learning how to spin. That was for the whole process. My favorite part was the spinning. That was always my. You know, and I really learned how to spend watching my mom and my older sister Roseanne. And Roseanne was an excellent spinner. Her techniques was amazing. I watched her all the time and try to do how she. How she did it and stuff.
- [31:06]
Cassidy Zachary
And.
- [31:06]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
And it was really a huge family event that. That they used to do. And then later on, you know, everybody got older, and both our aunts lost all their flocks because they're elderly, and they. They couldn't take care of their sheep. So their children, our cousins, decided to get rid of all of the sheep, and they did. And so Lynn and I were left with no raw wool to work with. And so she discovered the wool festivals. And she goes, ma, we got to go to these wool festivals because they have wool, but they're already milled, and they're. They're in roving, and you can just take the roving apart and spin them, you know, so that kind of eliminated the carding part, and just. We just started going to spin, which is really nice, because I really didn't like the carding part. And so we. We work on a process like that. And it's my job now because our mom is gone, our older sister's gone, we only have one aunt left, but all the other ones are gone. And so it was left to me to do the spinning. So I spin for myself and for Lynn and my son, my daughter, and my granddaughter. Five people. So I have to make a lot of material, and then I have to split it five ways between all of us.
- [32:29]
April Callahan
And Linda, did you want to tell us a little bit more about the tools that she was just referencing?
- [32:35]
Cassidy Zachary
Sure. So a lot of people assume they. They look at the finished product first. A textile that was woven by Navajo could be a regional style. It could be abstract. It could be a pictorial. It could be Any type of weaving. And so people assume, oh yeah, this is really nicely woven. But the story behind the woven piece, that's interesting because I was talking to the brother of Venuncio Aragon. Venuncio won Best of show at Santa Fe Indian Market A, about five years ago, I believe. Five or six years ago, I can't remember. And I have to say, Barbara is a two time winner of the best of show at Santa Fe. So. But I was talking to his brother who is a tool maker and we, we buy some combs from him. My husband makes some of the tools, but sometimes I like to support other tool makers. And so I was talking with him about tools and he goes, you know, he said, my, my. And I said, congratulations to your brother Venuncio for winning the best of show. And he looked at me and he goes, yeah, he won that with my tools, with the loom that I built and everything. He goes, you weavers get all the glory. Nobody ever talks about the tool maker behind the curtain. And that's where the magic happens. And I, I started thinking about it as my husband and I were driving home. It takes us nine hours to drive home. Home. And so I was talking to him about the tools and I was asking my husband, what do you think of that? He said, yeah, nobody ever discussed the tools. But the tools are significant because the tool makers have to decide how they're going to harvest the wood. We, they never harvest anything that's green. They harvest what's on the ground and they have to work with what they have. In the old days, they used a lot of scrub oak, they used a lot of finlers, shrub and all of that to make finishing tools to make homes. And the tool makers were also careful not to choose fallen item or fallen limbs and everything from a tree that was struck by lightning. That, that's a little bit of taboo. And then the toolmakers make sure that the weaver, when they're, when the weaver has a comb, that the comb is an extension of our hand. And so the number of fingers we have on one hand is five, which is an odd number. So the comb that you have has to have an odd number, has to have either 13 teeth, 11, 9, 7, 5, 3. The finishing combs don't abide by that. They can be in even numbers. But when you start out, the holy people need to know that you're weaving. And so you take your comb and it's an extension of your hand and it should be an odd number. And the battens are representative of the Thunderbolt. And so they have to be very well made and they can't flip all the time. And one of the things that we discovered because we always use tools that were, that were made by our father, which he used the traditional method of making tools and all that. But when our granddaughter, Roxanne Lee, we started her weaving when she was 4, she's now 21. So we started her out when she was 4 and her father had just come out of the army, Terry Lee. And so she would complain about her batten flipping or she would complain about her weaving tools. And he would take it and try to figure out a way for her to continue to weave. And so he figured out that the squared edge was better. He put wire to in the combs to make it better when you're weaving way up on top so that your hand doesn't get tired. I mean, he was also a left handed person, so he constructed left handed tools that when you flip them over, it could be used for right handers. And he grew a lot with us as a tool maker. And unfortunately he, he passed from COVID in 2020.
- [36:39]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
So.
- [36:39]
April Callahan
Sorry.
- [36:39]
Cassidy Zachary
But we owe a lot of the innovations to him and he initially was taught by my husband. And so the tool makers also have protocols. And it may seem like a rug was woven magically just by the weaver. It takes the whole family. It's. It takes a whole family to put as a support system, someone to help you with the wool, someone to help you do stuff. It's not just a one person that's weaving. It takes the whole family. It takes a community, actually.
- [37:13]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
Yeah.
- [37:13]
April Callahan
And especially when you tell us these wonderful stories about these family events with the gathering of the wool. And it's really this start to finish family enterprise. Right. In so many ways. And something we haven't talked about yet is the dyeing process. Barbara, you mentioned aniline dyes, but there's also a long tradition of finding dyes in the natural environment, which really isn't art form in and of itself because you can produce this rainbow of colors using natural dyes in the environment around you. Can you tell us about the use of natural dyes and perhaps introduce us to some of the master dyers that you wrote about in your wonderful book, Spider Woman's Children?
- [37:51]
Cassidy Zachary
Sure. The first master dyer is Irene Clark. She was in our book and we took a trip out there to see her. And the time that we did the book, I think she was around 82. She's now close to 90 and in the early stage of Alzheimer's I believe we wanted to take a trip back out to see her and go up the mountain with her. But her son Furlan told us that she has more bad days now than the good days. So it's, it's unfortunate that that has happened. But when we were writing the book, we drove to her home in Crystal, New Mexico. And I have to preface this by saying that Barbara and I did not grow up doing plant dyes because in the area that we're from, it's, it's all natural blending of colors. So the only thing that would get blackened was the, the black with aniline dye. And that was done over an open fire outside in a big old tin bucket or whatever. And aniline dye is still considered natural because it's based from coal tar and that's a natural product. And so it's really not acid dye. And so we knew how to do the black with aniline dye and we knew how to whiten the white with gypsum clay. And that's a very toxic product because that's the stuff that's inside drywall, that nasty white stuff that's in there. Yeah. And so you have to be careful when you're using that because it does, you know, go up your nose and settles in your lungs and all that. And so we have to keep them in flour sacks and, and that's how they're dyed and that's how are whitened. When we visited Irene, she was in her 80s and she's, she did not get started as a weaver until she was in her early 30s. You know, here we are. Barbara and I grew up that our first project probably came when we were age five or six. And here's Irene in her 30s when she finally. And her mother was a famous weaver. Glenna Bahardi is her mother and she's a well known weaver. And so Irene tells us the story of how she really didn't get instructional weaving from her mother. What she learned it, how she learned was just by observation. But she was much more interested in the plant dyes because that's what her family's known for, for. So all those array of colors that you see in the book, that's like a quarter of what was on the fence. Her fence was really wide and we took every color and our photographer, Joe Coco, took a lot of photos. But you know, I think the thrums people, Linda Legan and Karen Brock, only chose like a short piece to be in the book. And it, it looks wonderful, but you should, you should have seen seeing the original lineup of all the colors that she had. And then she said, well, come to join me on my walk, right? So we're walking up the mountain, and she's 80. I can't keep up with her. And I'm just, like, trying to trot right after her. And then she tells me without looking down, and I'm behind her. She tells me, be careful where you step. And I'm like, like, what, what, what? She goes, that's a little Navajo tea sprout that's coming up. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I'm like, sidestepping, and I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just following her. And she tells me, okay, so these are plants that are going to grow up. This is rabbit brush, or this is Navajo tea, Wild carrot, wild parsley. Sometimes if you can't get the greens, you can get the greens from this. And she was telling me it's seasonal. When you collect your plants in the springtime, you get the paler colors. Mid summer, with all the buds, you get a little bit more. And she said, but the most intense colors come from the fall. And she said, it's just not like one day you decide you're going to get up and go and pick plants. There's a process to it, and you don't always take the whole plant. And you have to be real careful that you leave enough for it to continue growing. So it's not like you could, you know, hey, there's wild carrot. I'm going to take the whole thing. You don't do that. And so she really taught us how to be respectful of when to gather, of all the protocols that go with it. And one thing I came back, and Barbara was. Was out doing something else. And I was sitting with Irene, and she has stacks of. Of photo albums. And I said, may I look? And she says, yes. So I pull it out, and it was like pages and pages. And that's how our parents, our mom, and our sisters had their own collection of photos of their weaving. And so I read, had the same stack of albums, and I was looking through it, and one of the albums I picked up, I kind of did a real quick turn, and it kind of fell right in the middle. And there was Barbara's business card alone in this scrapbook. And I looked at it. I said to Irene, oh, there's Barbara's business card. And Irene came over, and she put her hand on my shoulder. She goes, you know, I like that girl. She's very good. And I thought Navajo weavers can be fans of other weavers. And it gave me a feeling that we may not live in the same community, but we are a community that we can admire other weavers. And Irene was so generous in her knowledge when she was talking about her plants and how she gathers and we, we went through her wool and smelling them and the texture of them. Everything that she told me to touch and and put out, it was just, it was amazing. It was an amazing day that I'm going to remember for the rest of my life.
- [43:51]
April Callahan
Dress listeners, that concludes our episode today, but not our conversation with Barbara and Linda. Today, of course, we learned about the sacred art and cultural practice in Navajo weaving, and Thursday the sisters will be back to dive deeper into both the history and exhibition of Navajo weaving, which for well over a century have both been shaped by non dine voices and perspectives.
- [44:11]
Cassidy Zachary
Barbara and Linda have been instrumental in changing that through their numerous classes, books and consultations on exhibitions, including the Bard Graduate Center's current exhibition Shaped by the Loom Weaving Worlds in the American Southwest.
- [44:26]
Barbara Teller Ornellis
Which is on View until July 9th.
- [44:28]
Cassidy Zachary
And we will talk more about their role in that exhibition and their collaboration with the curator Hadley Jensen on Thursday.
- [44:35]
April Callahan
In the meantime, you can learn more about Barbara and Linda's work as well as see their full offering of classes at their website www.about navajorugweavers.com that's n a V A J O rugweavers with an s.com well, that does it for us today. Dress listeners, may you consider the sacred art, beauty and cultural heritage of Navajo weaving next time you get dressed. We always appreciate your support dress listeners, as we do love hearing from you. So please email us@hellorusthistory.com dressedhistory.com is of course our new website where you can find more about us, the show, you can listen to episodes, you can check up at our upcoming Fashion History tour Info classes. So much more. And you can also always, of course, direct messages on Instagram @dressedpodcast, where you'll find images and reels accompanying each week's episodes. And if you want to find the Instagram content that is specifically connected to this episode, check out the hashtag dressed304 and dressed305. That's dressed and the numbers 304 and dress 305 more dress coming your way Thursday. The History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.
- [46:14]
Cassidy Zachary
Have you ever wondered how inbred the Habsburgs really were? What women in the past used for birth control? Or what Queen Victoria's nine children got up to on the History Teatime podcast. I profile remarkable queens and LGBTQ royals, explore royal family trees, and delve into women's medical history and other fascinating topics. Join me every Tuesday for History Tea Time wherever fine podcasts are enjoyed. This is Jen and Jenni from Ancient History Fangirl and we're here to tell you about Jenny's scorching historical romantasy based on Alaric of the Visigoth's Enemy of My Dreams. Amanda Boucher, best selling author of the Kingmaker Chronicle, says, this book has everything high stakes action, grit, ferocity and blazing passion. Julia and Alaric are colliding storms against a backdrop of the brutal dangers of ancient Rome. They'll do anything to carve their peace out of this treacherous world and not just survive, but rule. Enemy of My Dreams is available wherever books are sold.