← Dressed: The History of Fashion
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- [00:00]
Cassidy Zachary
Taxes was taxing. Now taxes is relaxing.
- [00:04]
Elizabeth Way
When you file for free I can.
- [00:05]
Cassidy Zachary
File for free TurboTax Free Edition Roughly 37% of filers qualify. Simple Form 1040 returns only. See if you qualify@turbotax.com free. Hmm, I can file for free now. This is Taxes.
- [00:21]
Elizabeth Way
File for free with TurboTax Free Edition and get your maximum refund.
- [00:25]
Cassidy Zachary
No schedules except for earned income tax.
- [00:26]
Elizabeth Way
Credit, child tax credit, and student loan interest. See if you qualify@turbotax.com free.
- [00:30]
April Callahan
Please enjoy this episode from the Dressed archive of over 500 plus shows. Dressed will be back with all new content in March of 2025. Until then, consider heading to DressedHistory.com to explore our latest online fashion history classes and in person tours of Paris and New York City. More from Dressed coming your way soon.
- [01:00]
Cassidy Zachary
With over 7 billion people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day we all get dressed.
- [01:06]
April Callahan
Welcome to Dressed, the History of Fashion, a podcast that explores the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts.
- [01:14]
Cassidy Zachary
Cassidy Zachary and April Callahan. Dress listeners, welcome to what promises to be the first in a series of profiles on Black American fashion designers. And this is the subject of a very long overdue volume edited by today's guest, Elizabeth Way, who is also long overdue as a guest on this show. And I've literally been cajoling Liz to join us for the past couple of seasons.
- [01:42]
April Callahan
Yes, because Liz currently serves as an Assistant Curator at the Museum at FIT in New York City and was co curator of, you guessed it, the 20162017 exhibition Black Fashion Designers. Her new book, Black Designers in American Fashion is an extension of that project and features a wonderful collection of essays by individual scholars in our field, including more than a few past Dressed guests. And Liz joins us today to discuss the perhaps lesser known career of Scott Berry. But do not be surprised if some of the other contributors to this volume join us in future episodes next season. Liz, A very warm welcome to Dressed.
- [02:23]
Cassidy Zachary
Liz, thank you so much for joining us today on Dressed. And I'm super excited to chat with you about Scott Berry. And and one of the reasons is because I know actually so little about him. I definitely knew who he was, I knew the general kind of time period in which he worked and that he was designing in New York, but that really was only because I had worked on the Eleanor Lambert collection and he shows up in that collection quite frequently. So that's one of the reasons why I also think that collection is so important and so special because he's represented in there. He's was very influential and well known in his day, and now he's slipped a bit into obscurity. So we're going to rectify that.
- [03:02]
Elizabeth Way
First of all, April, thank you so much for having me on. I'm a big fan. Oh, yeah. So it was so much fun to be on the show. And I have to agree. I did not know very much about Scott Berry. I co curated an exhibition called Black Fashion Designers with my colleague Ariel Alaia in 2016, and we included Scott Berry. We have some beautiful pieces by him in the collection. And his business partner actually contacted me after the show was up, and she just left me a voicemail and said I was his business partner. I have a lot of information about him, and I didn't have time at the moment to start researching it, but when I did my book, I knew I wanted to write on Scott Berry. And I flew out to Denver and I had a lot of great conversations with her. We've stayed in touch. Definitely gonna talk more about her, but her name is Robbie Marks, and she really opened up this entire world, not just to Scott Berry, but to this really special time, I think, in New York fashion.
- [03:51]
Cassidy Zachary
Yes. And we're gonna get to all of that here in a second, but perhaps we should start at the beginning. Right. Can you tell us a little bit about his early years? And I was actually surprised to learn that Scott Berry was not his birth.
- [04:04]
Elizabeth Way
No. He was born Nelson Clyde Barr. He was born in Florida in 1946, but he grew up in Philadelphia. And one of the most interesting things, I think, is that his mother was a very refined dressmaker. She worked for clients in Society Hill, which is a very swanky neighborhood in. That's quite posh Philadelphia. So he grew up around really nice clothes. And he. In different interviews, he talks about growing up under a sewing table and being indoctrinated into the business of clothes. So he was always around fashion. I'm sure his mom had great stuff style, and he was probably just taking that in through his pores since he was a kid.
- [04:37]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
- [04:38]
Elizabeth Way
One of his sisters said in an interview that he was sketching dresses and things at like, age 6. Something else that I was really interested to learn about from one of his colleagues. I unfortunately talked to her after my manuscript was turned in, but her name is Yongju Kwan, and she was basically his design room manager. Business partner. Design partner. And she talked about how his favorite after school activity as a kid was going to the Philadelphia Museum of Art. He loved art. He was always absorbing that so he had some really great influences that really set him up to be a great fashion designer.
- [05:08]
Cassidy Zachary
And did he study fashion in school?
- [05:10]
Elizabeth Way
He did. He went to the Philadelphia College of Art, where he wasn't really studying fashion so much as drawing. But then later when he moved to New York, he went to the Meyer School of Fashion.
- [05:17]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, I think it's really interesting because we see this kind of like pattern in a lot of designers who grew up with their parents working in the fashion trade in some way. A lot of their mothers were really high end dressmakers, or perhaps their dad owned a haberdashery or something. And we see this theme repeating again and again. And I think it's. I think it's also one of those things is you see those people have this kind of innate knowledge of textiles and how they work because they see it so young, growing up. And he definitely is one of those people. And we're going to talk a bit about his use of textiles as well. So he's. He went to the Meyer School of Fashion here in New York. I am not familiar with this institution.
- [05:54]
Elizabeth Way
I'm not familiar with them either. So this was information that I got from different interviews that he had. I didn't have a lot of time to dig into the Meyer School of Fashion, but I think that he probably was pretty well versed in making clothes and sketching clothes and had a pretty great understanding of silhouette and fabric by the time he went to school. So it might have just been finishing touches or like an opportunity to network, which is so important for fashion schools, for sure.
- [06:16]
Cassidy Zachary
And you hear that dress listeners, there is a potential fashion history mystery question right there. What was the Meyer School of Fashion? So Barry, like so many of the people who are new to New York, he did the New York hustle thing, working multiple jobs. So many people do this when they move here. I did it for sure. I've definitely had like up to four jobs at the same time. Living in New York, you take your work where you can get it and you cobble things together until you, quote, unquote, make it. So would you tell us a little bit about this part of Barry's career and what he was up to in the 1960s?
- [06:47]
Elizabeth Way
Absolutely. So he moved to New York in 1962, and again, he was in school. And he mentions in interviews that he interned with or he apprenticed with Arthur McGee, who was a pretty well established designer on 7th Avenue at that time. And so he also mentions that he was starting his business out of his apartment, cutting in his living room and that he was supporting himself with various jobs. So he doesn't go into too much detail, but as you can imagine, probably just like today, he probably interned. He probably worked as a design assistant, a studio assistant, doing really important jobs, but perhaps less glamorous, more monotonous. The jobs that like, lubricate the fashion industry, that a lot of these young entry level designers and workers get.
- [07:26]
Cassidy Zachary
Paying your dues.
- [07:27]
Elizabeth Way
Exactly.
- [07:28]
Cassidy Zachary
And initially you actually quote Barry in the book as saying that at that time he couldn't get a job on 7th Avenue. This is the 1960s, but things definitely changed in the 1970s for black designers.
- [07:40]
Elizabeth Way
How so? One of the things he said was that he said that maybe his designs are a little too far out and that's why he couldn't get a job. And I assume that he means a job as a designer because he was working kind of various other jobs. But for black designers, I think that people like Arthur McGee, others like John Weston and Wesley Tan, they really broke open the doors for black designers in the 1950s and 60s. And they were working at manufacturers under other labels, which was very common for designers at that time working in the city. So they were establishing themselves as professionals within the industry. And so they laid like the first groundwork. But then designers who came up later, like Scott Barry, but also Stephen Burroughs, they had really directional design ideas. They were young, fresh, exciting designs. And they started off making them in their apartments, selling them to their friends or giving them to their friends. And one of the things that Scott Berry did was he sold on consignment at a boutique called Allen and Cole. Stephen Burrows actually also sold at this boutique, but they sold on consignment, which means that the store let them display it, but they only got paid if the store sold it. This is obviously very low risk for the store and very high risk for the designers. But that's how he got started. And. But his clothes were great, and so they sold. And then he was able to attract department stores, which was really the holy grail of retail accounts at that time.
- [08:53]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, and there's something to be said, and it's a little bit sad that these kind of higher end local mom and pop boutiques, there was such a strong culture of that in the 60s. And in the 1970s, Steven also sold at O boutique, which was apparently quite hip. It was like part art gallery, part whatever's hip shop. But we don't see that so much anymore these days.
- [09:15]
Elizabeth Way
Absolutely. I think there's very. There's Corso Como and Dover Street Market. But those are really rare and they're very high end. Scott Barry was definitely making high end things, but I think probably a little bit more accessible than the things available there. But those boutiques were so chic, and they were where new fashion was happening to the point that department stores were actually modeling themselves on the boutiques and creating little boutique departments to recreate that feel.
- [09:38]
Cassidy Zachary
So you note that Berry was, quote, crucial in creating the new American look of the 1970s. And I love this so much because American fashion has some very important milestones. I would argue that the 1940s were certainly one of those milestone moments when American sportswear kind of rose to prominence during World War II. And the same sort of ethos of practicality and comfort and minimalism. This was once again heartily embraced in the fashions during the 1970s by designers like Halston, like Stephen Burroughs, like Diane von Furstenberg and Barry. And one of the interesting things that I think connects all of these designers is their love of knit jersey. So could you talk to us a little bit about Barry's overall aesthetic and the significance of Jersey in his work specifically?
- [10:29]
Elizabeth Way
Absolutely. So Barry was very. His aesthetic was very sophisticated and very glamorous. So even though it was very cutting edge and kind of young, it was really pared down. He was really interested in, like, long, clean lines, draping fabric. Young Joo Hwan told me that he wanted to be a modern dancer when he was younger, and that his appreciation of the body in that way really came through in his designs. And so jersey was a big part of that because he really wanted to show off the body. And apparently WWD reported that he first started working with Jersey in 1966, that he was cutting dresses out of his apartment before he really established his business. But he was experimenting with it. And as anyone who's ever sewn with jersey knows, it's a very difficult fabric.
- [11:08]
Cassidy Zachary
I was going to say that if you didn't, it's very hard to sew.
- [11:11]
Elizabeth Way
So I'm sure his experience as a child came in handy. But he started working with this fabric and he just, he fell in love with it. You can tell from his later designs. But he was also really inspired by Madame Gray, who was also well known for working with Jersey. And youngjoo talked about how important his work with Jersey was, because in her word, he revolutionized kind of evening dressing through jersey. It was comfortable, it wrapped around the body. Previously, if you a fancy dress was chiffon, was satin, was a heavy kind of glamorous fabric. And he really Introduced this more elegance and this ease into it. And she said that it really became apparent when actresses started wearing these dresses, Scott Berry dresses to the Academy Awards. Kind of like the biggest, most fanciest night. Exactly. But you wouldn't have seen anyone in a jersey dress 10 years before. Jersey was really considered more of sportswear, more casual. But she especially really credits him with creating Jersey dresses that were elegant and formal.
- [12:07]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. Oh, and you mentioned Madame Gray, that he was a big fan of Madame Gray's work. And I am such a sucker when designers are obsessed with fashion, fashion history also. Why do you think that he felt a connection with her?
- [12:20]
Elizabeth Way
I think first of all, her work is breathtaking.
- [12:22]
Cassidy Zachary
Of course.
- [12:22]
Elizabeth Way
It's absolutely beautiful. It's timeless. She was still working in the 1970s doing really cool experimental things.
- [12:28]
Cassidy Zachary
Sculptural. The patterns were so complex and fascinating.
- [12:33]
Elizabeth Way
She was a genius. And she'd been working from since the 30s. So I think if you have to pick a designer to admire, she's definitely one of them. But more specifically to Barry, I think he had a similarly elegant and sophisticated esthetic. It was again, really glamorous, really sensual. And I think he saw her as the gold standard that he was looking to hold himself up to when it came to working with Jersey, because again, she was a genius. And so he wasn't copying her. But I think he really admired that elegant, sensual style and the understanding of fabric that she really conveyed. And he used that as an inspiration to create something really modern and American in the 1970s.
- [13:07]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah. If you've ever seen a Madame Gray dress, one of her particularly sculpted, like pleated creations, you're like, where does all the extra fabric go after she's done with that signature draping, pleating technique? It's mind boggling.
- [13:20]
Elizabeth Way
It absolutely is. And talk about difficult. I mean, she wasn't just working with Jersey, she was working with like these tissue thin jerseys. It's really astounding to look at.
- [13:28]
Cassidy Zachary
And I don't think. I don't think we've done an episode on her. So we'll get to that in season five for sure. Barry's venture becomes quite successful. You know that by 1976, his business was, quote, doing million of business a year. And that's in 1970s dollars. So that's a significantly larger sum today. What was his business model at this time? You mentioned that he started selling to department stores at some point.
- [13:54]
Elizabeth Way
Yes. So Barry, like many designers before and after him, was not so interested or perhaps so skilled at running the business part. So that's when he partnered with Robby Marks. So he talks about in different interviews. For example, he talks about failing to secure a Small Business administration loan in 1969. And he said he was in this kind of financial hard time where he was putting out a lot of money to produce his collections but having to wait to get payment from the stores and so he couldn't make any money.
- [14:22]
Cassidy Zachary
Cash flow.
- [14:23]
Elizabeth Way
Exactly. And this is a system that was in place and I think perhaps is still in place in the fashion industry that makes it very hard for designers. But he met Robbie Marks at the Allen and Cole boutique. He was there selling his work. She worked there. She was also in school at fit. She was a. No, I believe she was a recent grad graduate, but she studied merchandising and buying. And so she had a familiarity with the way all of that worked and she really loved his stuff and so she cut a deal with him. She was also a model, so he would make her clothes that she could wear on her modeling jobs for her photographs and she would help him with the business and she went out with him to visit buyers. And I think having the two of them there together, and especially her with a knowledge of the business, really helped buyers become feel more secure because they loved his things, but they dress listers.
- [15:06]
April Callahan
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- [15:18]
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- [15:35]
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- [15:52]
Cassidy Zachary
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- [16:37]
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- [16:51]
Cassidy Zachary
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- [17:03]
April Callahan
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- [17:15]
Elizabeth Way
Today we're really worried with young designers that they would place an order and not get the merchandise. Robbie really helped him get his business together a couple years into their partnership. About a year in, her husband Stephen Marks also joined the business. So the Marks ran the business and Scott Berry did all the designing and it was really a dream team. But she also helped him get into Bloomingdale's, which was their first really big account. She mentions Elaine Monroe, who was the buyer there for the place elegance department and she loved Scott Berry sayings, put them in the store and that was really their first huge account and helped them on their way.
- [17:51]
Cassidy Zachary
He was on his way, yeah, for sure. And also his clothes were embraced by many notable clients. Would you care to share a few of them with our listeners who was wearing Scott Berry at this time?
- [18:03]
Elizabeth Way
Absolutely. So their business really took off. I one of the funny things that Ravi mentioned to me was that their first shop was over a blimpy sandwich shop and that they had a really hard time getting buyers up there. But after a few years of great business, they were able to move on to 7th Avenue. And she said, that's when we became a big boy. But they were attracting clients like Liza Minnelli and the Poynter sisters. Ashford and Simpson musicians were a really big part of kind of the celebrity contingent in New York at that time. Roberta Flack and Chita Rivera. Also Nina Simone was a really big fan. And Dionne Warwick, Cicely Tyson and Faye Dunaway also wore his things and barbra Streisand wears a Scott Berry dress. We actually have the same style here at the museum at Fit in the way we were.
- [18:44]
Cassidy Zachary
Oh, yay. On screen, too.
- [18:46]
Elizabeth Way
On screen is a beautiful black and red dress. Robbie notes that was one of their most popular styles. And he also did over 100 costumes for the film of the Wiz. So he was definitely pretty popular. He also attracted a lot of great stylists, like Patricia Fields would always come to the showroom. Also Eunice Johnson and Audrey Smaltz buying for the Ebony Fashion Fair, which we've.
- [19:04]
Cassidy Zachary
Already done an episode on Listeners. So if you want to learn more about that, you can go back to that episode.
- [19:09]
Elizabeth Way
And Jacqueline Onassis actually saw some of his things in a department store and requested to come to the studio. And Stephen Marks talks about how they had to shut down the studio. They had to have all the security in, but Mrs. Manassas came in and shopped.
- [19:21]
Cassidy Zachary
That's incredible. Talk about knowing that you've really made it at this point despite all this success. Right. One of the things that I found really interesting in your essay is, despite all of this and how lauded he was, racism continued to rear its ugly head on 7th Avenue. Can you tell us a little bit about the challenges that he faced having white business partners? And also, there was, like, this one just horrific incident surrounding some fallout regarding a denim ad that he did in the 1970s. What was going on there?
- [20:00]
Elizabeth Way
Robbie and Steven talked about how that they would get hate mail because they were a black and white company, and that people would write in and make their complaints, which is crazy to me. And Steven specifically mentioned this ad in the New York Times. I haven't actually been able to find the ad, so if anyone finds it, please contact me.
- [20:18]
Cassidy Zachary
I will keep an eye out for you. I'm in there all the time.
- [20:21]
Elizabeth Way
So in the ad, Barry's pictured fitting a pair of jeans. It's for a denim line that he's doing on a white model posed in the way fashion designers are posed, like they're working. And people were outraged that this black man was touching a white woman in this advertisement. And they got hate mail. Stephen Marks really talked about how disturbing that was and how in New York, in the city, in the fashion industry, people didn't really show that kind of vitriol. Of course, there were more subtle ways, but that across the country, it really sparked outrage.
- [20:51]
Cassidy Zachary
I was. When I read that, I was like, what? Wow.
- [20:56]
Elizabeth Way
Something else that really struck me was Robbie talking about she was very young when she partnered with Scott Berry. So not only did they face racism on one end, but also sexism. She said that once she was in a meeting with fabric buyers, and they're sitting in the meeting, sitting and sitting, waiting. And finally one of them turned to her and said, when is your father coming? And she was.
- [21:15]
Cassidy Zachary
She's like, I'm part owner of this business, sir. Thank you.
- [21:19]
Elizabeth Way
She ran this business. And so those things really astounded me that the business was different in the 70s, hopefully much more different than it is today.
- [21:27]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
- [21:27]
Elizabeth Way
But both of those things were things that. Stories that really stuck with me.
- [21:30]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, for sure. You mentioned that you have a lovely collection of Barry's garments here at the museum at fit. Would you tell us a little bit about a few of your favorites?
- [21:39]
Elizabeth Way
Absolutely. I was very lucky because my day job is working at the museum that I got access to this really beautiful archive. And in my chapter, I go in depth about how they're made. So a few of my favorites. The first one was donated to us by Audrey Smalltz. She wore it as the commentator of the Ebony fashion fair in 1971. And it's this black halter neck dress with kind of a keyhole around the waistline, and it crosses over and ties around the neck, and it has this kind of long, flowing skirt, and it's just really sensual and elegant. It's like this black jersey. And I have a picture of her in the book, sitting in this director's chair, announcing and draped in this beautiful dress, lounged out. Another one of my favorites was donated to us by Naomi Sims. She donated a few things to our collection. And it is that red and black dress, the same style that Barbra Streisand wore on the Way We Were. And it has this top that's three quarter sleeves and red jersey, and it wraps around the body and ties at the waist. But then it's like a mock cardigan that wraps around a black shell. And it's just elegant. It looks really comfortable, but it's so beautiful. And the black and the red are just really stunning against each other.
- [22:43]
Cassidy Zachary
And there's something like a touch 1930s about that dress to me.
- [22:46]
Elizabeth Way
Absolutely. What's so interesting is that it's so soft. There's no structure. But if you look at it, they actually have, like, padded shoulder heads in the shoulders to give it a little bit more body. So it was a really unexpected kind of touch of, like, harder construction in this very soft jersey dress.
- [23:01]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, it's beautiful. So, speaking of favorites, as I was finishing reading your essay on Berry, I Realized that perhaps. And I'm. I can't say for certain, but perhaps one of my very favorite pieces in my closet might have been designed by him. And it's a crazy address. So it doesn't have a Scott Berry label. And it's crazy address from the 1980s. It has this V neckline that's very low, perhaps shockingly low. Like it terminates like between the breasts, if not like a little bit further down. So it's quite sexy. And then all around that edge of the neckline, it has this really stiff tool that kind of waves and sticks out. And it was actually. This dress was given to me by my former mother in law in the early 2000s. It had already been in her closet for many years, and she didn't want to get rid of it because she loved it so much. But she didn't fit in it anymore at that time. I did fit in it. I do not, for the record, fit in it anymore. It's like a size 2 4, and I am not a size 4 anymore. But Scott Berry was designing for Chrisia in Milan.
- [24:02]
Elizabeth Way
Yes.
- [24:02]
Cassidy Zachary
What was he doing there?
- [24:04]
Elizabeth Way
So around the end of the 70s, about 1979, he broke his partnership with the Marxes and he decided to move to Europe. So it's not 100% clear why, because his business was really successful. But young Joo Kwon talks about how much he loved the arts and dance and going to museums. And Robby talks about how much he loved Europe, how much he loved spending time there. So perhaps he just had enough of the fashion industry in New York. And so he moved to Milan. And from 1986 to 1988, he worked for Crezia. He was still a very talented designer, and obviously he knew knits so well, so it was such a perfect fit. And then he started working for Conchito, a Japanese manufacturer. So over the years, he relaunched his namesake brand. He did it in 1983, 1984, and again in 1989 with different backers. He never recaptured that same magic that he had in the 1970s. But he continued to work as a designer, very much able to support himself on his design work until the end of his life.
- [24:57]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, which came way too soon, I might add. He was only 47 when he passed away in 1993. And when I see these dates of death of fashion designers in the late 80s, and especially in the 90s, it immediately brings to mind the AIDS crisis of the era. I'm not certain that he passed away from aids, but so many important creators were lost during this Time. And I have this continual, perpetual kind of thought that kind of haunts me in terms of, like, American fashion history is how different would the American fashion industry be if we hadn't lost their individual and also collective voices as a whole from that generation? So what do you think that Barry's legacy was to American and specifically New York fashion?
- [25:43]
Elizabeth Way
One of the things that I really like to point out about Scott Berry is I really think he represents the epitome of what was possible for 7th Avenue design. It was ready to wear, it wasn't couture, it wasn't made to measure. You could buy it in a store, but it was really high end, and that's the way we buy high end clothes now. Some of his contemporaries who are doing other things did a lot more kind of custom work and things like that, which is beautiful and special in its own way. But I think he really represented American fashion in the 70s and what could be done. So he did a lot of his manufacturing in his own. He had it all in house for the most part. And he trained his stitchers, his manufacturers, his machinists to handle the jersey. If you look at his dresses, there's all different kinds of stitchings, mostly machine stitching, a little bit of hand stitching. But you can almost see the women in these factories putting these things together and really using this expertise that I think is really demanded of the type of clothes that he made. So I think that it's a really important story because his clothes were so beautiful, because they were so influential. So many famous people wore them. People saw pictures of them. They really. That's what the seventies looked like.
- [26:47]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
- [26:48]
Elizabeth Way
But I also love this idea that this is what New York fashion was.
- [26:51]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah.
- [26:51]
Elizabeth Way
And this was really what it was good at. And I think he was a huge example of that.
- [26:56]
Cassidy Zachary
And this was that moment that kind of when everything started to pivot in terms of, you know, things were still definitely made here from beginning to end. And. But this is that moment when everything shifts and things start to go overseas. So it's that really beautiful kind of golden age of 7th Avenue between the 1940s and the 1970s.
- [27:17]
Elizabeth Way
Absolutely.
- [27:18]
Cassidy Zachary
And he was definitely part of that.
- [27:20]
Elizabeth Way
And one of my favorite things that I came across is when I was doing Black fashion designers, I was actually speaking to Hamish Bowles doing a little bit of press, and he said to me, he is a very knowledgeable and renowned collector.
- [27:31]
Cassidy Zachary
Super knowledgeable fashion history, too.
- [27:34]
Elizabeth Way
He has a beautiful collection.
- [27:35]
Cassidy Zachary
He's been on the show.
- [27:36]
Elizabeth Way
Oh, great. He's just a Wealth of knowledge. But he said to me, he was like, I have pieces by Scott Berry. I knew of Scott Berry, but I didn't know that he was black. I just knew that he made great clothes. And I think that Scott Berry would have loved that because he really is such a great American designer. And so I do hope that more attention comes to him in the future.
- [27:54]
Cassidy Zachary
Yeah, for certain. And speaking of more attention, your book Black Designers in American Fashion is now out. What can our listeners expect to learn and who is represented in the book, both in terms of subject and also contributing authors?
- [28:09]
Elizabeth Way
I was really lucky in creating this book and editing this book because I had such an amazing group of scholars to work with. And so the book covers from the 18th and 19th centuries all the way to the end of the 20th century. So I'm going to do a laundry list because I love my authors and I want to make sure I mention all of them. So in the first sections, four sections. The first section is Anonymous Histories and Dr. Katie Knowles and Dr. Jonathan Michael Square both have chapters that look at 18th and 19th century fashion creators. In the second section, which is called in the Atelier Modis and Independent Designers, Kristen Stewart, who's at the Valentine in Richmond, she writes about Fanny Criss, who was an amazing dressmaker in Richmond in the 1910s. And then Joy Davis writes about Ruby Bailey, who was based here in New York City and really combined kind of art and fashion. Kristen Owens writes about Art Smith, who is an incredible jeweler. And then in the third section, called into the mainstream, 7th Avenue and beyond, Nancy Deal writes about Wesley Tan Darnell. Jamal Lisbee writes about Jay Jackson and Ariel Elia writes about Dapper Dan. So, like, really different designers, but really amazing stories and all based in New York. And then the last section, which is where my Scott Berry chapter is, it's called the Star, national and International Impact. Tanya. Danielle Wilson Myers writes about Stephen Burroughs, another essential 1970s designer who's also been on the show. Yes, he's absolutely amazing.
- [29:28]
Cassidy Zachary
That's one of my all time favorite interviews we've ever actually done because he's just so wonderful and charming and just like a magical human.
- [29:35]
Elizabeth Way
Yeah, he definitely seems that way. He also, like, hasn't aged at all, which is definitely magical. And Eric Darnell Pritchard writes the last chapter on Willie Ware and Patrick Kelly Paris. So I couldn't resist throwing in Patrick Kelly. He's not, I guess he is an American, but not an American designer since he worked in Paris. But he makes some really beautiful comparisons between Patrick Kelly and Willie Smith.
- [29:55]
Cassidy Zachary
Yes. Liz, thank you so much. This was really wonderful. Everybody please run out, grab a copy of the book again. It's called Black Designers in American Fashion and it's just a really fun read. Thank you.
- [30:09]
Elizabeth Way
Thank you so much for having me. This was so great.
- [30:11]
April Callahan
Liz, thank you for joining us today and congratulations on the release of your book Black Designers and American Fashion. We cannot wait to see what you are up to next.
- [30:22]
Cassidy Zachary
So that does it for us today. Dress listeners, may you consider if there are black designers in your wardrobe and celebrate them. If so, next time you get dressed.
- [30:35]
April Callahan
Dressed will be back with season eight and all brand new episodes in February of next year.
- [30:40]
Cassidy Zachary
But until then, remember, we love hearing from you. So if you would like to write to us, you can do so@helloresedhistory.com Dresshistory.com is also where of course you can register for our tours, our trips, our new class, anything else that we have up, our finely tailored sleeves.
- [30:58]
April Callahan
That includes April's twice weekly in person fashion history tours of the Metropolitan Museum of Art as well as our brand new dress, the School of Fashion live online course, the 1950s Golden Age Haute Couture which is now open for registration. And we do have gifts cards available for both April's tours and the class. So just send us an email at hello dressed history.com and also send us an email if you want to get on the first to know list for our New York City Day tours coming your way in April 2025 and our Paris Fashion History tours coming your way in June. Registration for both of these tours will open in January and we do expect them to sell out, so send us an email to get on those lists.
- [31:37]
Cassidy Zachary
Thank you as always for your continue continued support. Dressed will be coming back your way for season eight in early February. The History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.