Stitching Freedom: Embroidery and Incarceration with Isabella Rosner, Part II (Dressed Classic)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Dressed – Stitching Freedom: Embroidery and Incarceration with Isabella Rosner, Part II (Dressed Classic)

Date: March 27, 2026
Podcast: Dressed: The History of Fashion
Hosts: April Callahan & Cassidy Zachary
Guest: Isabella Rosner – Embroidery Historian, Podcaster, and Curator

---

Episode Overview

In this poignant and illuminating episode, hosts April and Cassidy reconvene with embroidery historian Isabella Rosner to conclude their two-part discussion on Rosner’s book and zine, Stitching Freedom: Embroidery and Incarceration. The episode delves into the often overlooked yet powerful stories of individuals—primarily women—who used needlework as resistance, memorial, and survival while living under various forms of incarceration, from American slavery to POW camps and mental institutions. Through these material artifacts, the episode examines the profound ways embroidery has preserved humanity, hope, defiance, and lineage against all odds.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ashley Sack: Slavery, Separation, and the Power of Embroidered Memory (04:00–08:56)

• Object of Focus: A humble cotton sack, c. 1850s, given by enslaved mother Rose to her daughter Ashley at their forced separation.
• Inscription (read aloud by Isabella Rosner):
  • “My great grandmother Rose, mother of Ashley, gave her this sack when she was sold at age nine in South Carolina. It held a tattered dress, three handfuls of pecans. A braid of Rose’s hair. Told her it be filled with my love always. She never saw her again. Ashley is my grandmother. Ruth Middleton, 1921.”
• Significance:
  • This artifact, embroidered 70 years later by Ashley’s granddaughter, Ruth Middleton, is “an important material survival of enslavement in America” and a rare example of embroidery directly tied to slavery.
  • The piece endures as a testament to maternal love and the survival of Black lineage and memory despite generational trauma.
• Notable Quote:
  • “It’s about love against all odds and the human connection… about the lineage of Black women in America… and the fact that Ruth Middleton uses embroidery to tell that story, I think is incredibly powerful.” – Isabella Rosner (06:47)

Timestamps:

• [03:24] Introduction to the story of Ashley Sack
• [03:52] Isabella reads the embroidery
• [06:47] Discussion of legacy, lineage, and the erasure of Black women’s textile histories

---

2. Embroidery as Memorial and Political Statement: Suffragettes and WWII (09:00–16:06)

A. Major Alexis Castagli: Resistance in a POW Camp (10:09–15:57)

• Story: British Major Alexis Castagli, a WWII POW, subversively stitched “God Save the King” and “F*** Hitler” in Morse code onto his cross-stitched sampler.

• Highlights:

  • Castagli used unravelled sweater yarn as thread, made his own canvas, and learned cross-stitching in captivity.
  • The Germans not only failed to see the hidden messages but allowed him to start an embroidery club for prisoners.
  • His practice became a family legacy after the war, stitching alongside his son Tony.

• Notable Quote:

  • “He follows in a pretty long lineage of people using embroidery as code… doing it in a subversive, secret way… Embroidery is everything. It’s for everybody in all circumstances.” – Isabella Rosner (13:04)

• Quote from Castagli’s letter to his son (read by April):

  • “It is 1581 days since I saw you last, but it will not be long now… look after Mummy till I get home.” (14:06)

B. Challenging Gendered Narratives

• Reflection:
  • “This story does a lot to really rewrite our understanding of what embroidery is. Embroidery is everything. It’s for everybody in all circumstances.” – Isabella Rosner (15:30)

Timestamps:

• [10:09] Castagli’s story begins
• [11:58] How messages were encoded
• [14:06] The family and legacy aspect
• [15:57] Discussion of embroidery and gender

---

3. Secret Messages and the Embroidery of Incarcerated Women (17:38–23:54)

Changi Prison Quilts (WWII Singapore)

• The Story: Women separated from their families in Changi POW camp used patchwork quilts to encode news and memorialize loved ones for men in separate camps.
• Significance: Each patch conveyed personal or family updates (e.g., a blue bunny signified a baby boy’s birth).

Radha Nikolić: Handkerchief of Memory and Martyrdom

• The Story:
  • At 19, Serbian anti-fascist Radha Nikolić, condemned to die, embroidered a handkerchief with all her fellow inmates’ names and execution dates, and a direct message to her mother.
  • Rosner reads the translation:
    “Greetings to mommy… Don’t grieve, I’m not the only one. Many innocents have perished.” (21:27)
  • After Radha’s execution, her handkerchief was recovered and given to her mother, then a museum.
• Significance: This story is little known in English-language scholarship and highlights global, cross-cultural instances of “incarceration embroidery.”

Timestamps:

• [17:38] Changi Prison quilts and coded messages
• [21:27] Radha Nikolić’s handkerchief; Rosner reads the inscription

---

4. Why Textiles Move Us: Humanity, Memory, and Accessibility (24:11–27:34)

• On Human Connection:
  • Embroidery captures intangibles—emotions, relationships, glimpses of daily life, even self-depiction—often absent from traditional historical records.
  • Embroidery offers details about education, hopes, fears, likes, even allergies and “songs that get stuck in our heads.”
• Universality: Embroidery’s accessibility and tactility make it a true folk art, transcending gender, class, and geography.
• Quote:
  • “The humanity is present in every stitch… the fact that embroidery has been used all over the world for forever… there’s not a lot of gatekeeping… it is piercing a fabric with a needle, and it is that.”—Isabella Rosner (24:33)

Timestamps:

• [24:11] Why textiles move us
• [25:00+] On the accessibility and global histories of embroidery

---

5. Roy Matterson: Embroidery as Hope and Transformation in Modern Incarceration (28:05–30:56)

• Story: American Roy Matterson taught himself embroidery while in prison with makeshift tools (a plastic jug lid for a hoop, underwear for fabric, unraveled socks for thread).
• **He earned the nickname “Betsy Ross” and, upon release, became a full-time embroidery artist.
• Notable Reflection:
  • “Ray left prison and is now a full time embroidery artist… we need a reminder that embroidery… can get your mind and your body out of hard times and hard places, but it can also be for both the good times and the bad.” – Isabella Rosner (29:40)

Timestamps:

• [28:05] Introduction to Roy Matterson
• [29:40] On hope and art as transformation

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “History is not just the history that’s told with a pen and paper, it’s also the stuff that people stitch using a needle and thread.”
  —Isabella Rosner (07:25)

• “Embroidery… is about who remembers you and what they remember, and what you have left to you when you are in spaces of incarceration.”
  —Isabella Rosner (05:51)

• “It absolutely challenges that narrative that needlework is the domain of women.”
  —April Callahan (15:57)

---

Additional Recommendations & Resources

• Book Mentioned:
  • All That She Carried: The Journey of Ashley’s Sack, a Black Family Keepsake by Tiya Miles ([07:45]).
• Isabella Rosner’s Podcast: So What? (dedicated to historic needlework)
• Social Media:
  • Instagram & TikTok: @historicembroidery
  • Dressed Instagram: @restpodcast
  • Dressed Hashtags for this episode: #dressed491 and #dressed492

---

Conclusion

Stitching Freedom: Embroidery and Incarceration reveals the hidden histories—of hope, heartbreak, resistance, and resilience—literally sewn into textile objects by those denied freedom. Through Rosner’s research and storytelling, the episode invites listeners to consider embroidery not just as craft, but as a profound human language, bridging time, suffering, love, and the irrepressible will to remember and be remembered.

---

Find More

• Visuals for discussed pieces & stories:
  See Instagram #dressed491 and #dressed492, and @historicembroidery.
• Further reading and books:
  Visit Dressed’s Bookshop page at bookshop.org/shop/dressed.

---

Transcript

[Quaker Oats Advertiser]

You know you need fiber for a healthy gut, but do you actually know how to get it? Quaker's been serving UP fiber since 1877 with over 100 great tasting, good source of fiber options to choose from. Whether you like old fashioned oats, instant oatmeal granola or oatmeal squares, Quaker makes it delicious.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Mmm.

[Quaker Oats Advertiser]

So good. Get your fiber with Quaker. Shop Quaker's good source of fiber products at a store near you.

[Dressed Podcast Host - Cassidy Zachary]

So good.

[Venmo Advertiser]

So good.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

So good.

[Nordstrom Rack / State Farm Advertiser]

New spring arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores. Now get ready to save big with up to 60% off rag and bone. Marc Jacobs free people and more.

[Dressed Podcast Host - Cassidy Zachary]

How did I not know rack has Adidas?

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Cause there's always something new.

[Nordstrom Rack / State Farm Advertiser]

Join the Nordy Club to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite rack store for free. Great brands, great prices.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

That's why you rack Please enjoy one

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

of our favorite episodes from the Dressed archive of over 500 plus shows. The history of Fashion is a production of dressed media. With over 8 million people in the world, we all have one thing in common. Every day we all get dressed.

[Dressed Podcast Host - Cassidy Zachary]

Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast where we explore the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts, April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Hello dress listeners, and welcome back to part two of our fascinating and incredibly moving conversation with embroidery historian Isabella Rosner, who joins us this week to discuss her recently published Stitching, Freedom, Embroidery and Incarceration. You may remember from part one of this episode on Wednesday that Isabella is one busy embroidery historian. Not only is she a fellow podcaster with her so what podcast about historic needlework, but she is a research associate at Whitney Antiques in London and the curator of the Royal School of Needlework,

[Dressed Podcast Host - Cassidy Zachary]

which as the name suggests, is an embroidery school at Hampton Court palace in London and comes with a rather fascinating history cast. As their website tells us, quote the early history of the Royal School of Needlework is linked with the social, cultural and political history of Victorian and Edwardian Britain. Founded by Lady Victoria Welby, the Royal School of Needlework began as the School of art needlework in 1872 in a small room above a bonnet shop on Sloane street in London. Initially employing 20 ladies, moving in 1903 to a new purpose built center on Exhibition Road close to the VA Museum, where at its peak the Royal School of needlework employed around 150 workers. That's amazing. Fast forward to today and it is an internationally renowned and respected institution, a reputation our guest today plays no small part in maintaining there are so many

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

embroidered histories to share dress listeners. Which is exactly why Isabella has her very own podcast dedicated to the topic, and which is why she is joining us again today for part two to continue to share some of the embroidered stories to be found when freedom was out of reach for its creators.

[Dressed Podcast Host - Cassidy Zachary]

Isabella, welcome back to Dressed.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Isabella, welcome back to Dressed.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be back.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

So, on Wednesday's episode, we talked about incarceration in the context of workhouses and mental health facilities. But of course, it is not unique to those places, as is expressed in your sixth section in the book Filled With My Love Always, which is about Ashley Sack, which, quote, tells the story of slavery in America and the love and care it attempted to destroy but could not. Please tell us about this heartbreaking story that is literally embroidered onto this sack.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

Okay, so this is a cotton sack from about the 1850s, and it has embroidery on it. And I'm going to read the embroidery if that's okay, because I think that it tells a story that I cannot tell in my own words. So it says, my great grandmother Rose, mother of Ashley, gave her this sack when she was sold at age nine in South Carolina. It held a tattered dress, three handfuls of pecans. A braid of Rose's hair told her it be filled with my love always. She never saw her again. Ashley is my grandmother. Ruth Middleton, 1921. This 1850s bag was embroidered upon by a woman named ruth Middleton in 1921. And what she tells us is that her grandmother Ashley was an enslaved individual alongside her mother, Rose, that's Ruth's great grandmother. When Ashley was nine, she was sold elsewhere and Rose and Ashley were separated. And when Ashley was taken away, Rose gave her this bag, this cotton bag full of Rose's most precious possessions. So it was handfuls of pecans, it was a tattered dress, it was her own hair. And Ashley and Rose were never reunited. They never saw each other again. That's an incredibly heartbreaking story, arguably, I was going to say arguably the saddest story in all of them. But it's sometimes quite hard to figure out what is the saddest story. This is a particularly heartbreaking story that is really an important material survival of enslavement in America. We have very, very few surviving embroidery specifically that are tied to slavery. And the fact that this story survived the 70ish years between Ashley and Rose and Ruth is powerful in and of itself. But the fact that it survives another 100 years after Ruth embroiders It is equally and even more powerful and says so much about lineage, about family. And, you know, family is not a thing that is talked about a lot in this zine, because a lot of these stories aren't about family. They're about the individual experience. So this was an important story to include for multiple reasons, but that is one of them. It's about who remembers you and what do they remember, and what do you have left to you when you are in spaces of incarceration. And I include enslavement as one of, you know, the ultimate forms of incarceration. And it's about love against all odds and the human connection. And I say at the end, it's about specifically the love and the relationships and the lineage of black women in America. Black women are such a central part of America's textile story, of their stitching story. And a lot of that early history is lost because of how textiles were used and reused. And they were in poor condition and they were, you know, poor quality. And there was reasons why these stories are gone. But this story says so much about a huge group of people, one microcosm, one micro history of what it meant to be enslaved in the United States and what possessions were available to you. And the fact that Ruth Middleton uses embroidery to tell that story, I think is incredibly powerful. And Tia Miles wrote the best book about Ashley Sack, and it's called all that she Carried. And she did research and found that Ruth was a stitcher throughout her life. And the fact that this is the way that she chose to tell that story, I think speaks to the power of embroidery. It's such an asset to anybody who doubts embroidery significance that history is not just the history that's told with a pen and paper, that it's also the stuff that people stitch using a needle and thread.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned Tia Miles, too, because all that she Carried, the Journeys of Ashley Sack, is an incredible book, and she has been on my list, potential guests for a very long time. So this is my cue to try to get her on the podcast because it's such a beautiful, beautiful book and so incredibly researched.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

I think she does such an incredibly good job of taking one object and turning it into the entire world. It's not. It's a whole family story. And what it means to be human in connection to stuff. The fact that this one object can span, what, like a 400 page book, and it's fascinating and devastating story. I think she does such an amazing job.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Well, and you do too, right? Because that's what this book is. This book is using textiles as a conduit to these greater stories. And this is something we talk about all the time on Dressed. One of our core tenants of the podcast is the stories we literally wear, the stories that are literally sewn into our garments. And that just really speaks to the value of textiles and material culture.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

Absolutely. They tell us so much about what it means to be a person.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

And, you know, with textiles, especially in clothing, it's one of the most human aspects of material culture that exist, arguably the most human. Something we all have a relationship with and something that is so incredibly intimate to who we are, and even if most of us don't necessarily think of it that way. Yeah, it's just. I mean, I'm preaching to the choir here, but it's just so special because of that reason. And more. More than one example in the book memorializes a moment or an event while representing incredibly significant moments in history. So Ashley Sack is, of course, one example. You also have a section on suffragette prison stitching that you read about in your fifth section. Bold, bad ones. That's another example. And then you have this section, and this is a direct quote from the embroidered work, which is Fuck Hitler. Created while its maker was imprisoned during World War II. So I would love if this story was so unexpected and so incredible. Please tell us about British British army officer Major Alexis Castagli and his embroidery.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

I feel like I am the number one, like, the president of the Major Alexis Castagli Fan Club at this point, because this is the story I tell everybody. If you do not know anything about the history of embroidery, I'm telling you this because it has everything, and it breaks down all of your preconceived notions of what embroidery is. So Major Alexis Castagli was a British general in the army in World War II, and he was captured and put into a German prisoner of war camp in 1941. And he was part of the textile trades before the war, so he kind of knew what was up with sewing. And he, while in the camp, got a piece of canvas from another prisoner and pilfered. I like using the word pilfered, because it feels like a little. He's just taken this disintegrating sweater jumper from a Cretan general, and he unravels it to create thread. And he teaches himself how to cross stitch. And he's making this object that people call a sampler, and it is sampler esque. It has in the middle this whole description. And he's Saying, major at Castogli. This is his number. It's 1941. It's December. And this is where he is in Germany. And it's surrounded by these national symbols of the players in World War II. And these symbols that I can't figure out what they are. People are thinking they're bombs. Some people think they're mushrooms. I, like, made a TikTok about this symbol sampler. And everybody was like, what are these objects that are dotted around the sampler? I do not know. But what I do know is that the sampler has a secret. Because in this border, there's this one border that's very narrow. Two of them actually. These very narrow borders that have dots and dashes, that's actually Morse code. And it says over and over again, God save the King and Hitler on repeat. What a delight.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Amazing.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

Amazing. The thing that's so crazy and the thing that really does blow people's minds as well as my own is that he was transferred to multiple other prisoner of war camps. And he was in prisoner of war camps for four years. And this thing was on display in all of them. The Germans never caught on to the fact that he encrypted his sampler with these sentiments. And they were so like, wow, look at this guy that he started us. He was allowed to start an embroidery club. And they used their Red Cross materials that they got and they stitched. And he. That's his most well known piece, and it should be, because it's absolutely gobsmacking. But he embroidered the entire time he was in those POW camps. And he would embroider letters to his children. There's this map that he made of what life was like in the cell, basically. And it said it, like, has all of these signs. And it does actually replicate the signs that are allowed, like, shower every 14 days. This is where the coal is, all of this stuff. And then there's this flap that you can lift that says, do not open, I think in German. And underneath it is a British flag. And I just love this guy. He's so bold, so brash. And he follows in a pretty long lineage of people who are using embroidery as code. And I, Mary Queen of Scots, the first person in this scene, starts that story that she is saying some really bold stuff to the people who can speak her language. And I think that Castaglia is such a good example of flouting power, of just. Just throwing it back in their faces, but doing it in a subversive, secret way. And his story is also delightful because it's one of hope. He gets out of the POW camps. Right. And he embroiders for the rest of his life. He teaches his son to embroider. They embroidered together and he continues to embroider butterflies, a lot of butterflies, which was a symbol he embroidered frequently in the POW camps as a symbol of freedom, that even when he got his freedom, he was still embroidering that same symbolic message. I love it.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

It's just this story is just so remarkable. You quote from a hand stitched letter he sent to his 11 year old son at the time that reads, it is 1581 days since I saw you last, but it will not be long now. Do you remember when I fell down the well, look after Mummy till I get home. And he said on this letter he stitched a map of Crete involving 45,000 stitches, 190 hours of work. And you also mentioned hope because this story is just remarkable. He was freed in 1945, he flies back to Britain and you end with this. Once his son Tony retired, the two men began to stitch together and he stitched for the rest of his life. And you can look him up online. There's stories written about him. And just. Yeah, just the hope and the beauty that came out of this horrific situation is just remarkable.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

Yeah. And it's so. You know, I said about Ashley Sack that there's not a lot of information in this zine about family, but one of the other rare instances where that theme of family comes up is in this story that it's father and son doing this together. And all of these objects are still in the family's possession. These are some of the only objects that aren't in public museums. And while that's a disadvantage in terms of seeing them and accessibility, it speaks so much to the value of family and lineage and connection that it started with this man in a really desperate set of circumstances and it became a family art, a thing to bring multiple generations together. And the fact that it's men, it's a soldier. I think this story does. The story itself is so remarkable, but I think that it also does a lot to really rewrite our understanding of what embroidery is. Embroidery is everything. It's for everybody in all circumstances.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Yeah. It absolutely challenges that narrative that needlework is the domain of women.

[Venmo Advertiser]

Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card and earn up to 5% cash back with Venmo stash. Got paid back with the Venmo debit card. You can instantly access your balance and spend on what you want like game day, snacks, gear, tickets and more. The more you do, the more cash back you can earn. Plus, there's no monthly fee or minimum balance. Sign up [e-mail] collegecard the Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. select schools available. Venmo stash terms and exclusions apply at venmo me stashterms max $100 cash back

[Nordstrom Rack / State Farm Advertiser]

per this episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast. Smart move Being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

New Maybelline Serum Lipstick maybe it's not just lipstick. It's lush color with endless possibilities. It's serum infused with a hyaluronic acid and oil blend for eight hour, plumping moisture in tone, enhancing shades. It's more than the shade, it's who's wearing it. You New Maybelline Serum Lipstick maybe it's Maybelline.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

So Castagli's work is not the only to have hidden messages in it. You also mentioned Queen Mary, Queen of Scots, of course, but he's also not the only embroiderer featured who is incarcerated during World War II. Tell us about the women of Changi Prison or Shangi Prison, and Radha Nikolic.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

So there is. This is a trio. There was the trio of kind of Victorian ladies. Now there's the trio of the World War II people. So in Changi, which is in eastern Singapore around the same time as Castagli 1941, all of the people who are living in that area get rounded up and also put into a prisoner of war camp. And the men and women get put into different camps. The children go with the women and the men go elsewhere. And even though these camps are not separated by very much, they have no interaction with the exception of occasional heavily monitored meetings. And there, because there was no communication between families there, there needed to have been, but there wasn't. These women came up with this idea of creating patchwork quilts to create coded versions, coded messages for the men in the camp to let them know how their families are doing. And it was about depicting a part of yourself, right? Something that was important to you. But what came with that was women speaking to changes in their Lives, for example, you'll have a blue bunny. It's like, oh, this woman was pregnant and had gave birth to a son in this POW camp. And the husband needs to know. You get a lot of, you know, little depictions of toddlers, that sort of thing. It's like, oh, hey, I can't see you right now, but your child is doing well, your children are doing okay. So these quilts were made, there were three of them, and they were brought to the hospital in the camp. And that is how that information spread, that the men in the hospital would be like, oh my God, like, George, I see your wife Ethel is doing okay. Or like, Frances, look at this. Molly says she like, here's what she has depicted for you. And it was another way of. Yeah, of code. And I like that. There is an example in this zine of quilting, patchwork quilting here, because embroidery is often talked about in the vacuum. And I know that I'm part of that problem. But embroidery is, is part of this much larger world of needlecraft, of textiles, and of domestic, frequently domestic textile production. So to include a quilt which is. Has such a relationship with embroidery throughout time was really important to me. And then Radha Nikolic is the third in this trio. And she was a 19 year old girl from Serbia who was part of the anti fascist movement there was. And she was arrested for being part of this movement. And she was given a sentence of execution and she was put in a camp. And while there, she embroidered upon a handkerchief and she embroidered all of the names of the people in the camp with her and their dates of execution. And the date she doesn't include is her own death date. And I'm going to read you what she writes on this handkerchief. And Rada is an interesting one because I. She's one of the first ones that comes to my mind when I think of how these people get these materials. How was she in this essential concentration camp and how did she get a needle and thread and this handkerchief? I do not know. But the story is so poignant. So she writes in Bosnian, Croatian, Montenegrin and Serbian, which is also known as Serboque Croatian. And the English translation reads as a memento to my dear mommy from her daughter Radha. Greetings to mommy. Coca sava toma. July 20. I keep thinking about you and waiting for them to take me out. Radha Nikolic B. Basta, born on August 28, 1922, arrested on January 1, convicted and shot on January 24. She did not write this from her afterlife. That is the date she was scheduled to Pass, by the way. So greetings to all, dear and beloved, your Radha. July 25th. Don't grieve. I'm not the only one. Many innocents have perished. Again, another absolutely devastating story. Sorry that the zine is just devastation after devastation. But I mean, she is exceptional for her incredibly young age. She's 19 and she's also, of these 12, the only one who depicts herself in prison. She shows an image of a what looks to be a very young woman behind prison bars. And the handkerchief itself is gridded. And so it feels like she's behind two layers of imprisonment. And once she died and once the camp was freed after the war, the handkerchief was given to her mother, who then gave it to a museum in Serbia. And this story was important for me to include for many reasons. But one of them is that I see information about other stories in this scene all over the place. People have written books, people have curated exhibitions. They're part of the conversation in the Americas and in Western Europe about exceptional embroidery, radical embroidery, emotional embroidery. But Radha Niklage, I've never seen part. I've never seen her be part of any of these conversations. And I only came across her by chance. I, like, came across a black and white image of her handkerchief on Instagram, like, six years ago and kept it in my bookmarks. And it speaks to the fact that my own understanding of incarceration embroidery is limited because I'm limited by primarily speaking English. And since publishing this, I have people in my Instagram DMs being like, Hey, I wrote my master's dissertation on this incarcerated embroidery from my country. I would love to share this information with you. And it's. It's such an honor to be a person that people tell this information to. I'm not going to be sharing it because it's not. I'm not out here trying to plagiarize and steal their information. But the fact that I'm just so grateful that my own understanding of the global relationship between embroidery and institutionalization, it's forever expanding because people have their own stories to tell from different parts of the world that I'm just completely unfamiliar with.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Yeah. And we talk about this all the time on the show, but textiles and textile arts and crafts speak to our shared humanity across time and space, different cultures, around the world. This is something we all share. Is this art and act of expressing ourselves through these.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

Absolutely.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Through these artistic mediums. So, I mean, this scene has been a heartbreaking but also incredibly moving and powerful experience. Numerous instances while reading it where I Cried. I've cried many times, actually, during this conversation to date.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

Dressed lizards.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

You just can't. You can't see me. But, I mean, especially when you look up these pieces, you come face to face with the pain and the heartache that's literally embroidered into them. And as an embroidery historian who has probably looked at and handled, I'm guessing, thousands of textiles and garments throughout your career, what do you think it is about textiles that moves us that way?

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

So in. It's a long list in my notes, but I'm going to keep it succinct. I think it's what you were just saying, that they're so human. The humanity is present in every stitch. Oftentimes, we don't know what these people looked like or what was happening in their lives oftentimes. But we see so much about them. We see how they felt, what kind of education they had and what materials they had access to, how embroidery either helped or hurt them or both, or somewhere in between, you know, their favorite colors or verses or hymns. They knew people in their lives, people they liked and disliked. And sometimes we even get pieces of their bodies. We get depictions of themselves, even though we don't have photographs, we don't have drawings, but we have how they see the world. And through them, we can see their world, too, I think. And so the humanity is what drives me. It's, I think, why I study this stuff, because when it comes down to it, I love people and I love stories, and I think that these objects portray both so well, but they're also relatable. They are so accessible. Anybody can embroider as long as they have access to a needle, thread and a piece of fabric. It's the fact that embroidery has been used all over the world for forever because of that accessibility. And the fact that there's not a lot of gatekeeping that, yeah, you can look up specific stitches that are complicated, but really what it is is just piercing a fabric with a needle, and it's that it is, I think, also that piercing the fabric with the needle, that tactility. I did two degrees in art history, and I think by the end of it, I was a little bit sick about. Sick of learning about painting, because I wanted. I wanted to feel. I wanted to understand how people of the past filled their life with stuff in the way that I do. I think that everything that I think about with textiles and embroidery is about trying to get to the heart of the complexity of lives of the past in the way that I know the complexity of lives now that we all have foods we're allergic to and people we like and we dislike and songs that get stuck in our heads, I think that textiles and embroidery in particular tells us so. It gives us that minutiae, those tiny details and these little indicators of what made life so rich and complicated and difficult and joyful. I think that they have. These embroideries, have the capacity to tell stories that a lot of art forms don't and that the historical record doesn't either. The historical record prioritizes people who are oftentimes not the people we see in embroidery. Embroidery is frequently women. It's frequently members of the middle and lower classes. It's people on the margins in many different ways. And embroidery is the way. I think I'm biased, but I also really do think this, that embroidery is the way by which we can. We can bring so many people into the conversation and understand their lives on such an intimate, detailed level.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Absolutely. And you've certainly demonstrated that with this book, and we are running out of time today. But I do want to say that while there is several heartbreaking stories throughout this book, there is also, as we've attested to already, hope. And that is attested to in the last section of the book that is dedicated to Roy Matterson, the only living embroiderer in the zine. So who is Roy, and why did you choose to end with his story?

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

So, Roy Matterson is an American man who was in prison, and while in prison, he taught himself how to embroider. He was bored, and he was thinking back to his grandma and remembered how she always looked like she was having a nice, calming time when embroidering. And so he fashioned his own embroidery supplies. He. He made an embroidery hoop out of the big lid of one of those, like, plastic jugs. And he got underwear as his canvas. And he unraveled socks again. Unraveling, unraveling. And he taught himself how to stitch. And he started making little badges for fellow prisoners, like sports teams and stuff. And he would trade them for things like coffee and cigarettes. And then eventually he started making these miniature pictures, depictions of himself in the woods or life at home on his porch, or famous pop stars or baseball heroes. They're tiny, they're just a few inches, and they have tens of thousands of stitches in each of them. And I. I like that he was called at this time, when he was in prison, Betsy Ross. It's a reference that is lost on all of the British people in my life. But I. I find that the inclusion of Betsy Ross A pretty interesting, an interesting thing because it ties back into embroidery and gender, but also embroidery and identity. Making that Betsy Ross is the person who made our flag and she did that with stitch. And this idea that all of his fellow prisoners were like, this guy is inventing something totally new too. I think that's awesome. So Ray left prison and is now a full time embroidery artist. That's his career is embroidery. And that brings me such joy. I had to include him at the end because he is the most recent one. And this is a chronological zine, but also because we need some hope in here. Yeah, there are glimmers of hope throughout this thing, but we need a reminder that embroidery, it can get your mind and your body out of hard times and hard places, but it can also be for both the good times and the bad. It sees you through all sorts of life moments and feelings and circumstances. And I, I hope that ending, that hopeful end note will be a little bit of a sigh of relief for people after this. That just like each of these 12 stories is so unique and is as different as like, it's different in all variables. That each of these stories speaks to a unique set of circumstances. That embroidery itself speaks to that too. That embroidery in incarceration is not just devastating and brutal, that it also offers a way to get out, to think beyond, to, to feel like there's a better future.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Isabella, thank you so, so much for joining us this week. This has just been so remarkable.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

Thank you so much for having me. It has been such an honor. Thank you.

[Dressed Podcast Host - Cassidy Zachary]

Isabella, thank you so much for joining us all this week and sharing such incredible insights into these often overlooked but incredibly significant and important creators. Dress listeners. We will of course provide a link to purchase stitching, freedom, embroidery and incarceration, which at just £10 or US$13 makes a very affordable entry point into this fascinating topic. And hopefully we're going to hear a lot more about this in the future as research continues to be done on these individuals.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Yes, hopefully so. And dress listeners, Walk, don't run to listen to Isabella's podcast so what? Which is dedicated entirely to celebrating historic needlework and its creators. And you should also absolutely follow her on her social medias at Instagram and TikTok with her handle historicembroidery, one of my all time favorite accounts. She just does really, really beautiful work there and we will of course be sharing some collaborative reels with her this week on many of the pieces we discussed in this week's episode. Episode. You can find that on our Instagram handle restorepodcast if you are listening to this in the future and you wanna find the Instagram content specifically connected to this two part episode, check out the hashtag dressed491 and dressed492. That's dressed and the numbers 491 and dressed492.

[Dressed Podcast Host - Cassidy Zachary]

Please head to restpodcast on Instagram or Rest Podcast without the underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

And remember, we always love hearing from you, so if you'd like to write to us you can do [e-mail] DressedHistory.com is also our website where you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses and you can check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.

[Dressed Podcast Host - Cassidy Zachary]

We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books, so if you are interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop dressed and there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

And do you love Dressed but want to skip the ads? You can now sign up for Ad free listening with any tier on our Dressed History Patreon Listen.

[Dressed Podcast Host - Cassidy Zachary]

We are also excited to now be part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free history subscription Airwave History plus available on Apple Podcasts. The subscription brings dressed and also 27 other popular history podcasts ad free for just $5.99 per month. More information on Patreon and Airwave is available at the link in our bio.

[Dressed Podcast Host - April Callahan]

Thank you as always for tuning in and more More Dressed coming your way very soon. The History of Fashion is a production of dressed media.

[Isabella Rosner - Embroidery Historian and Guest]

Short dramas, emotionales rapidos y difficiles, dejar descarga, TikTok aura.

[Quaker Oats Advertiser]

Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra. That's the og. It kicked off this whole Zero sugar energy drink thing, but Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise and Vice Guava and they all bring the Monster Energy Punch. So if you've been living in the White can branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe and every single one is Zero Sugar Tap the banner to learn more.