The Man of Many Hats: An Interview with Master Milliner Stephen Jones (Dressed Classic)

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Dressed: The History of Fashion
Episode: The Man of Many Hats: An Interview with Master Milliner Stephen Jones
Air Date: March 11, 2026
Hosts: April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary
Guest: Stephen Jones, OBE — Renowned British Milliner

---

Episode Overview

This classic episode of "Dressed" honors Stephen Jones, universally celebrated as one of the most innovative and prolific milliners of the past four decades. The conversation explores Jones’s journey, the artistic and cultural significance of hats, behind-the-scenes anecdotes from his couture collaborations, his views on inspiration, history, and the enduring power and fantasy of the hat.

---

Main Themes and Key Discussion Points

---

1. Early Relationship with Fashion and Millinery

[06:03–14:20]

• Childhood Impressions:

  • Jones recounts being captivated more by appearance than fashion as a child, with early museum outings and a keen awareness of clothing as a signal of identity and allegiance.
    • “I was really into appearance more than fashion... It was all the messages that people sent out to each other by what they were wearing." — Stephen Jones [09:00]

• Transformative Moments:

  • The influence of 1970s glam (notably Roxy Music and David Bowie) and the cultural symbolism of uniforms stood out.
    • Anecdote: His sister, ten years his senior, epitomized ‘70s fashion and notoriety by appearing at his school in lilac suede hot pants.

• Discovering Millinery:

  • Path was non-linear: Initially planning for architecture, Jones’s foundational experiences at St. Martins School of Art led him serendipitously to hats.
  • Early exposure to tailoring and millinery workrooms revealed distinct cultures; milliners “worked hard and played hard," piquing his creative curiosity.
    • "After the first day in the millinery workroom, I thought, wow, this is incredible. I loved it.” — Stephen Jones [12:15]

---

2. Formative Years and the London Scene

[15:21–19:15]

• Launching His Label:

  • Opened his first salon in 1980 at age 20; quickly attracted a devoted, stylish crowd—often fellow artists, musicians, and friends.
  • Gained a cult following through alternative press, evading traditional fashion media expectations (“street fashion but with couture techniques” [16:22]).

• Creating Without Boundaries:

  • Early hats included avant-garde shapes: funnel caps, palette-influenced pork pies, and vinyl pieces intertwined with wearer’s hair.

• Artistic Inspiration:

  • Jones draws inspiration everywhere: architecture (“buildings to me are hats you live in”), film, whimsy, autobiography, and person-to-person interaction.
    • “I take everything life has thrown at me and make a hat out of it.” — Stephen Jones [21:11]
    • The process can be analytic or spontaneous; often, best ideas arise improvisationally.

---

3. Defining a Hat & The Power of Headwear

[25:00–27:22]

• Fluid Definition of a Hat:

  • “A hat can be anything that you can put on your head.” — Stephen Jones [25:15]
  • Examples range from classic headwear to a “flower put behind the ear,” or anything that sparks fantasy and self-transformation.
  • The ephemeral, throwaway nature of hats is pivotal; they invoke fantasy more freely than other garments.

• Transformative Power:

  • Hats allow wearers to embody dreams, aspirations, and alternate identities easily.
    • “Hats have got to make you dream—not of reality, but the fantasy you want to have.” — Stephen Jones [26:35]

---

4. Fashion History as Muse

[27:22–33:16]

• Respect for Tradition:

  • Jones sees himself firmly within a lineage–both inheriting and reimagining the glories of fashion past.
    • “You cannot be a milliner without recognizing fashion history, because so many beautiful hats have been made before.” — Stephen Jones [28:35]
  • Early access to vintage fashion magazines (Avedon, Penn) at art school provided foundational inspiration.

• Collections as Homage:

  • Notable collections explicitly referenced giants like Adrian, Charles James, Schiaparelli, and Madame Grès.
    • The 2017 collection: “That collection was all about the greats of fashion design...I’d photographed some of the drawings there...done completely out of respect.” — Stephen Jones [31:05]
  • As a modern designer, Jones delights in both referencing and expanding millinery’s historical canon.

---

5. Collaboration with Designers

[33:25–41:36]

• Career Highlights:

  • First break with Zandra Rhodes, followed by pivotal collaborations: Vivienne Westwood, Jean Paul Gaultier, Rei Kawakubo, Thierry Mugler, and beginning in 1996, his legendary partnership with Dior and John Galliano.
    • John Galliano at Dior: Their 15-year collaboration yielded some of fashion’s most iconic millinery moments, with hats often preceding or shaping the direction of entire collections.
    • “We just did this thing. It was like one set of hands...Communicating through fashion, not by words. That was also a very interesting thing.” — Stephen Jones [37:10]

• Storytelling in Fashion:

  • Galliano would narrate aspirational, cinematic stories which Jones translated into hats, often leading the creativity of a season.
    • “He would say, you know, there’s a Chinese princess, and she runs away to Egypt, and...” [36:34]
    • Hats became vessels for narrative, fantasy, and identity.

• Legacy at Dior:

  • Jones has more pieces in the Dior exhibition than any other contributor.
    • “Dior is the only haute couture house which has got its own millinery workroom.” — Stephen Jones [42:08]

---

6. Why Hats Matter: The Enduring Significance

[43:22–44:16]

• Visibility and Identity:

  • “If you see somebody from 100 yards away, you know, if they've got a hat on, that will be immediately obvious.” — Stephen Jones [43:22]
  • Hats are visual passports and statements; highly symbolic and universally legible.

• A Rare Modern Gap:

  • Jones underscores the oddity of the late 20th and early 21st century being the exception—an era where hat-wearing became rare.
    • “I'm sure people will look back in 500 years time and think it's really weird...people didn't wear hats every day. That's so strange because it's the only time in history that people have not worn hats.” — Stephen Jones [43:40]

• Concluding Reflection:

  • Hats symbolize aspiration, identity, and fantasy—the exclamation mark on dress.
    • “They're a symbol of ourselves, of who we want to be. And they're like a passport to another world.” — Stephen Jones [44:12]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “A hat makes clothing identifiable, dramatic, and most importantly, fashion. It's the cherry on the cake, the dot on the I, the exclamation mark, the fashion focus.” — [Cassidy reads Stephen Jones, 02:38]
• “After the first day in the millinery workroom, I thought, wow, this is incredible. I loved it.” — Stephen Jones [12:15]
• “I take everything life has thrown at me and make a hat out of it.” — Stephen Jones [21:11]
• “A hat can be anything that you can put on your head.” — Stephen Jones [25:15]
• “Hats have got to make you dream—not of reality, but the fantasy you want to have.” — Stephen Jones [26:35]
• “You cannot be a milliner without recognizing fashion history...” — Stephen Jones [28:35]
• “We just did this thing. It was like one set of hands...Communicating through fashion, not by words.” — Stephen Jones [37:10]
• “They're a symbol of ourselves, of who we want to be. And they're like a passport to another world.” — Stephen Jones [44:12]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Stephen Jones’ childhood & introduction to fashion: [06:03–09:00]
• Transition into millinery & St. Martin’s experience: [10:09–12:15]
• First salon & the 1980s London scene: [15:21–16:22]
• Sources of inspiration & autobiographical note: [19:15–21:43]
• Nature and definition of hats: [25:00–27:22]
• Influence of fashion history on his millinery: [28:35–33:16]
• Collaborations and working with John Galliano at Dior: [33:25–41:36]
• Why hats remain important: [43:22–44:16]

---

Overall Tone

The conversation is warm, inquisitive, and celebratory, with both hosts expressing deep admiration for Jones’s craft and legacy. Jones is reflectively candid, blending humor and humility throughout, offering inspiration not just for fashion lovers but for anyone passionate about creative expression.

---

For more:

• Visit stephenjonesmillinery.com or follow him on Instagram for ongoing inspiration.
• For visual content and further reading recs, check out Dressed's Instagram and their Bookshop shelf.

---

Summary prepared for listeners seeking an engaging, thorough understanding of Stephen Jones’s legacy, thoughts on millinery, and the timeless art of the hat.

Transcript

[April Callahan]

Dress Listeners Laundry Sauce is about to make Laundry day one of your favorite days of the week. The difference between Laundry Sauce and my old detergent is night and day, and it's honestly crazy how detergent that smells actually good can completely transform your laundry routine from a chore into something that actually makes you happy.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And Laundry Sauce isn't just about premium laundry pods. It's a full upgrade for your entire laundry routine. With their fabric softener, dryer sheets, scent booster, and Fresh Fabric Fresher spray, you'll have everything you need to transform your laundry experience from basic to extraordinary.

[April Callahan]

There's a lot of scents to choose from, and whichever scent you choose, subscribing to the signature package will keep you stocked with all of your must haves, bringing them straight to your door on your schedule, saving you an errand, and making sure that you never run out in the middle of your wash day again. I'm a big fan of the Italian bergamot scent, which has notes of sweet Mandarin, vetiver, sandalwood and Indonesian patchouli.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And for a limited time only, our listeners get 20% off your entire order when you use code dressed@laundry sauce.com. that's 20% [e-mail] with promo code dressed. And after you check out, they'll ask you where you heard about them. So don't forget to drop our name. Trust us, your laundries never smelled this good.

[Queens Podcast Host]

What do you get when you take two childhood friends with a passion for unexplored history and a whole lot of booze?

[April Callahan]

You get us Queens Podcast and here

[Queens Podcast Host]

at Queens, we are spilling the tea on all kinds of women from history,

[Cassidy Zachary]

from New Orleans Voodoo Queen Marie Laveau to Marie Antoinette and everything in between.

[Queens Podcast Host]

Each queen is paired with a cocktail recipe that will totally get you in the mood to hear the fun, dramatic and juicy stories of fascinating women from history.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

[Queens Podcast Host]

Cheers.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Please enjoy one of our favorite episodes from the Dressed archive of over 500 plus shows foreign.

Over 7 billion people in the world. We all have one thing in common. Every day, we all get dressed.

[April Callahan]

Welcome to Dressed the History of Fashion, a podcast where we explore the who, what, when of why we wear. We are fashion historians and your hosts April Callahan and Cassidy Zachary.

[Cassidy Zachary]

So milliner and millinery are perhaps not

jobs and job titles that we are familiar with in today's day and age. I mean, the profession is not quite as popular as it may have been in say, the pre1960s era. When leaving your house during the Day without a hat would have just been unthinkable. I mean, it was so, so inextricably linked to one's social standing and respectability. But if anyone is going to remind us today about the effectiveness, the joy and the sheer artistry of a well placed hat, it is today's guest who has said, quote, a hat makes clothing identifiable, dramatic, and most importantly, fashion. It's the cherry on the cake, the dot on the I, the exclamation mark, the fashion focus. Everyone from showgirls to dictators know that by wearing a hat, they will be the center of attention.

[April Callahan]

We are so pleased to welcome master milliner Stephen Jones to the show today. Stephen is inarguably one of the most influential, prolific and celebrated milliners of the late 20th and 21st centuries. In 2010, in gratitude for his artistic contributions, he was awarded the distinction of OBE Becoming an officer of the order of the British Empire. And with good reason, because since opening his first millinery salon in 1980, Steven. Steven's highly prized creations have been adored and admired the world over, adorning the heads of everyone from royalty to rock stars from Diana, Princess of Wales, to Mick Jagger to Lady Gaga and Rihanna.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And like his star clientele, his designs really run the gamut, ranging from recognizable but no less sophisticated standards like fedoras, berets, and top hats to, you know, things like oversized painter palettes, giant daisy confections, and pipe cleaner hats inspired by Andy Warhol's brushstrokes. Some of Stephen's descriptions of his own hats include fairy light halos, blitzkid helmets, and seahorse crowns, which is just so whimsical and wonderful. And in Stephen's hands, hats are raised to the highest level of art and sophistication. Hats become a poem, a fantastical dreamscape, or a sophisticated finishing touch.

[April Callahan]

Stephen is a fashion history maker off and on the Runway, where he has worked with designers from Vivienne Westwood to Rei Kawakubo of Comme des Grasson to the rotating cast of designers who have helmed Dior since the 90s, when Jones began his tenure as a creative director of hats, a position which he still holds to this day. By far, his most famous designer collaborations are with John Galliano. And during Galliano's 15 years at Dior, the two created some of the most famous hat moments in fashion history.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And it should be abundantly clear by now that Steven is one very busy man, the man of many hats. Have you.

[April Callahan]

And we are so grateful to him for taking the time to Talk to us today about his incredible four decade plus long career creating some of the most whimsical, playful, elegant and beloved hats in the history of fashion. Steven, welcome to Dressed.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Steven, welcome to Dressed. This is such an honor and a pleasure to have you here with me today.

[Stephen Jones]

I'm delighted to be here, Cassidy, such

[Cassidy Zachary]

a huge fan and admirer of your work, as are all of our listeners, I am sure. And I would love if we could just start by talking about maybe your formative relationship with fashion and the fashion self. Do you have an earliest memory of fashion or the transformative power of dress that you can share with us?

[Stephen Jones]

Certainly there are a couple of things. There was something. I was really into appearance more than fashion. I remember being taken around museums and art galleries by my mum when I was very young and my mum showing me arrangement of pictures and why certain things were in certain places and what people were wearing and what the messages were. And for example, things like with a suit of armor, men wore a plume in their helmet which was given to them by their lady just before they went into jousting, for example, to show what team they were in or who they were fighting for, who they were representing. So that was one thing and that was from a very, very early age. And the other thing which was, and then, you know, I just wore normal kids clothes and then a really transformative time and like the power of fashion was in 1972 when the first Roxy Music album came out and it was Roxy Movie and David Bowie and I saw, oh my God, all the different ways that you could appear. I mean I knew that I wore school uniform and that represented much to the amusement because I was at a private school and we wore like boaters in the summer, for example, and we wore school uniform and the other local boys who are not that always used to scream with laughter and shout rude things at us, of course, because we look completely ridiculous, all very dressed up. So those were my sort of earliest things of fashion. And I had a sister who was 10 years older than me and I was at a very Church of England, a very Anglican school. And she used to come and this is in the 70s, and she wore lilac suede hot pants. And you can imagine I was so popular at school when she stopped coming and then my popularity went down.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I think I read in an interview with you, you talked about how you were convinced that she was dating Mick Jagger because she lived in London and you had just imagined this fabulous life that she was living.

[Stephen Jones]

Oh yeah, yeah. I mean basically I thought she Was Jerry hall reincarnate or Bianca at that time. But I mean it was a whole world that I found fascinating but really didn't know that much about.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I also read you have a wonderful monograph of your work called Stephen Jones Souvenirs. And I read in there and there's some wonderful pictures in there. It's really an insightful and int. Monograph of your work. But there's also this wonderful image of the clothing you made for the family pet. He's dressed in this nurse's outfit, which is wonderful. So it sounds like you were experimenting at least with creating garments at an early age.

[Stephen Jones]

I mean, sort of having fun with clothing. And everything was from a charity shop, everything was recycled dishcloths, etc. Etc. Nothing was bought new. So I think fashion per se, I mean I was aware of fashion, but it was just all the messages that people sent out to each other by what they were wearing. And from a very early age I was really aware of that. My father wore a suit, he wore different clothes to play golf. Why was he wearing those clothes? It's all a costume.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. And then of course you said the school uniform. Of course, the message that's sending out versus what you would have worn to your Sunday's best or to play with your friends. It's all different.

[Stephen Jones]

Yeah. Actually funny enough, at school we used to go, I mean it was normal clothes and then we called them civvies, which meant civilian clothing. Shows you where I was coming from.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Anyway, so your path to millinery was not necessarily linear, nor was it obvious to you initially. How did you find your way to the art of hat making? Can you share a little bit with us about that journey?

[Stephen Jones]

Yeah. I mean, I didn't have a clue what I was going to do. I wasn't like Isaac Mizrahi, you know, making clothes for mummy, age 4 or Gaultier or any of those people. No, I mean I really didn't know what I was going to do. I knew I didn't fit in to my parents life or into that world that I knew or the world of my elder sisters. But what I was going to do was all a complete mystery. And I mean I was going to do architecture first of all. And in England you have to do a thing called foundation course which is a. Before you go to art school you do like two week block of ceramics and interior design and textiles and all these different things. And I decided to go and do fashion also because I was aware that St Martin School of Art was the closest art college to Central London, central London, particularly circus. And in those days they needed four courses which were painting, sculpture, graphics and fashion. And I knew that even though I was good at art, I didn't think that I wanted to be a struggling artist in a garret trying to make ends meet. And even though I was quite good at graphics and still love graphics and typography in particular today in a graphic designer's work was always so incredibly neat. And really I was much more expressive. And that left fashion. So, you know, which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Anyway, amazingly enough, I got into St. Martin's I think I was the token male. And there were all these girls who could sew brilliantly. I had no idea whatsoever. So my tailoring tutor took pity on me and said, stephen, unless you get some extra help, you're going to fail the first year. So he actually was teaching there just as a favor, because he owned a couture house called La Chasse and in London. And I went there as a tailoring intern. At that time, I did not know of anybody else who was an intern at that time in England. Internships didn't exist, work experience, anything like that. Nobody did that. I was the only person I knew who did that. So I went to work in his tailoring work room during the holidays. And it was quite interesting. But I don't know, I sort of knew I was going to make it as a tailor. And it also was very competitive between, funnily enough, between the Greek tailoring workroom and the Jewish tailoring workroom. Of course, I mean, they all got on perfectly well outside work, all their wives are friendly with each other and would bring cakes and homemade things. But in work, oh, my God, it was like a football final or something. And even age 19, I thought this was a bit stupid. But next to the tailoring workroom is a millinery workroom. And the milliners worked hard and they played hard. They talked to each other, they seemed to have a good time. And I was fascinated by those things that they had on the table as well. These things, hats. They just seemed such anachronism. I mean, my mum wore hats, my grandma wore hats. You know, I knew people wearing hats, but I don't know, none of my friends, none of my friends from college would ever dream of hats or going into hats or something like that. It was complete anachronism. So I transferred from one department to another. And after the first day in the millinery workroom, I thought, wow, this is incredible. I loved it. Imagine I was going to make a career out of it. I was still doing women's fashion. You know, I was doing womenswear ready to wear. So when I left, my final exams were in clothing, not fashion. I think that's why nowadays I still love working. I love working with clothing designers because for me, the hat is just part of it. Well, is part of the outfit. I always imagined a total look. I mean, the total look might be a plain black dress to go with a fancy hat. But I always imagine, and mentally, when I draw, I always draw the backbone first, and then I draw the head, and then I put a hat on it. I never draw the hat in isolation.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Absolutely wonderful. And I love too, that you talked about how you realized that just as much handwork went into millinery as into, like, finished couture garments. Something I don't think a lot of people consider.

[Stephen Jones]

No, no. I mean, the main thing is that a hat is such a three dimensional object. You could never really fit it under a sewing machine. I mean, there's certain techniques you can use, but it's, you know, it's all in the air. It's all by hand. There are some machine parts of it, but it's such a 3D object that no machine can contain that. Having said that, you know, people do print hats using 3D. I did this season for Dior Man. We made some hats in 3D printing. But the ability to see something, for example, a sketch on a page and know immediately what it would look like in 3D. And somehow, genetically, I was able to do that.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I mean, you have had this incredible career where you, it seems, have a never ending source of inspiration for hats and headwear. But first, I want to talk about how you got started, because you opened your first millinery salon in 1980. You were just, I think, 20 years old, and you quickly. And what it looks like to me, just looking at all the media attention you got, you had an incredible success. I think something like 500 people alone came to your opening of your tiny Little Boutique. By 1981, Suzanne Bartch was importing your hats to New York. By 84, they were on the Paris Runway. And then you have all of these fashion spreads that are just lauding your work and basically saying that you are the future of millinery. And what I love too, is that you're like the literal face of modern millinery because your image accompanies almost every single fashion spread that I found of your work, which I just loved at that time. Did you comprehend how radical your work Was you mentioned your friends didn't wear hats. So was this something completely new?

[Stephen Jones]

Well, by then they were starting to. And this was really from 1980. And I was making hats for my friends. Sometimes if they were friends who were just starting up pop bands, they became musicians. They were buying them for me, but then I was making some for my really good friends and giving them to them and they were wearing them out. And you know, we would do exchanges. You know, I would give a hat and they would give me three sheep. No, not exactly close to it. Or they would make me dinner for a week or something. It worked very well. But there was no great plan. No great plan. And we were living from day to day and. And in a way, the reason that there was so much media was that that was at the time that we were creating our own media. It's a little bit maybe like now the established media just seemed from another generation, another place. So we were just doing our own thing. So there were magazines like the Face and ID and Blitz magazine as well. And they're the people that featured our work. I mean, I, I remember taking hats into established magazines and them saying, well, you know, you're too new. Unless you have five points of sale in the uk, we can't feature you. I mean, it's sort of unbelievable now that not to me, but to anybody at all. People are always looking for the newest, brightest thing. But people didn't think like that then. People thought it was what they used to call it was street fashion. And I was in this weird position because I was halfway between street fashion but with couture techniques. And I love being in the in between and always have been, always have been. I not said I didn't want to be typecast or labeled or anything, but I love that. The sort of the floating world of millinery.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, you're kind of creating it. I think as you went along too. It seems like you're creating a new world that people could and enjoy. And I read this article in the New York Times from 1981 and you know, the, the journalist is heralding you as like the newest, greatest thing. He calls you a cult figure in London. And Suzanne Barch had been importing your hats into her boutique. And I just wanted to read for our listeners just this wonderful variety of whimsical and experimental hats that you were already creating in 81. So you had 6 foot long embrace embroidered muslin funnel caps that fit snugly over the forehead, then wrap around the shoulders as shawls. Picasso inspired felt Pork pies shaped like palettes, and hats made of white vinyl that curl over and through one's hair. So clearly, already early on, you're inspired by fashion and art history in your work. Can you talk a little bit about what has inspired your creations throughout your career?

[Stephen Jones]

And it's so funny, you know, the first hat you just talked about then, which was this long funnel just before I came onto this call I was fitting. I've decided to redo that hat, and I'm remaking it next summer. 23.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Wonderful.

[Stephen Jones]

It's not exactly the same, but it's following the same principle. So, you know, what comes around comes around. And I've had 42 years of trading professionally. So where does inspiration come from? Everywhere, every second of the day. I live my life and think about it sometimes in hat terms and put pencil in my hand and out pops a sketch. Having said that, there are certain things, of course, there's buildings, architecture, which are basically hats to me, hats that you live in. There's film, which is about representation and fakery and the wonders of illusion. So those are very, very strong. But every season I pick a theme, and sometimes I work really long and hard on that theme, what that theme's going to be. And sometimes it's just a complete whim, which makes more sense, I don't know, the whim, maybe, rather than the analysis. And in the same way, you know, I can sketch and we can prep a hat for weeks and weeks and weeks, but sometimes something which is spontaneous and just comes out of something out of a. Made out of something at the back of the COVID we don't have the reference number for. Doesn't come in colorways. And I pin it up on somebody's hat, and that's the best hat in the collection. I don't know. There's. In a way, there's no logic to it. And I think when there is a logic to it, that's when it becomes a bit dull or something.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And that's how you've been able to create collections. You've been creating two collections a year since 1982. So 40 years of creating two collections of years in which you're constantly finding inspiration. I love when you talk. I've heard you talk a couple different times. Or read interviews with you where you talk about the autobiographical aspect of your hat making. And to quote you, you said, I take everything life has thrown at me and make a hat out of it. For instance, you used a telegram that your father sent your mother from Africa when he found out she was pregnant. And that was inspiration for your 2016 collection, which I thought was quite beautiful.

[Stephen Jones]

Yes, they are autobiographical. For example, next spring's collection was about a place I visited, a place I fell in love with, some people I fell in love with. There's that. And also sometimes, yeah, I mean, it's art as well. But you know, art can be found in a meal, in a drink, as well as in a painting or a sculpture. And so often art is found in that person, in that particular person, the beauty of the person, the craziness of the person, the character of the person. So I mean, I always hope that I can be inspired by everything because to shut yourself down or to put up barriers, I don't think that's what life's about.

[April Callahan]

Obsessed with your favorite luxury brands but on a RealReal budget well, join Cass and I over at the RealReal where we have been customers for years.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yes dress listeners, if you're on the hunt for pre loved items from your favorite luxury brands, there is no better source than the RealReal. The RealReal has found new homes for over 37 million authenticated luxury items so they know firsthand the impact resale has on the planet. Rather than producing more stuff, the RealReal is making what already exists new.

[April Callahan]

The RealReal is the easiest and fastest way to sell. With over 40 plus million members ready to shop your closet, they use real time data to determine the highest possible price for every item and handle all of the work for you from photography and copywriting to shipping and customer service. Because your to do list is already

[Cassidy Zachary]

long enough, the RealReal is the most trusted name in authenticated luxury resell. With over 10,000 new arrivals daily, no one does resell like the RealReal and now get $25 off of your first purchase when you go to therealreal.com dressed that's therealreal.com dressed to get your $25 off, start shopping [e-mail] dressed

[April Callahan]

dress listeners, by now many of you know that I only wear vintage or sustainable fashion and and sometimes it's hard for me to find brands when I need to refresh my wardrobe. So as I embark on cleaning out my closet this spring and need to replace some staple pieces, I'll be headed straight to Quince.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Quince has all the staples covered from their hundred percent silk tops and skirts for easy dressing up which I love to perfectly cut denim for everyday wear. Their wardrobe essentials are crafted to last season after season and like everything from

[April Callahan]

quints, each piece is made with premium materials in ethical trusted factories. So from bedding and home goods to ethically and sustainably produced fashion, Quince is a carefully curated source for consciously produced things we all need in our day to day lives.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Right now go to quince.com dressed for free shipping and 365 day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E.com dressed for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com dressed

can you talk to us a little bit about how you define a hat? Because I actually think it might surprise our listeners. I heard this wonderful interview with you and Susie Menkez where you talked about how like a hat could be just a flower put behind the ear. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

[Stephen Jones]

Totally. I mean, a hat can be anything that you can put on your head. I mean, okay, you're wearing a turban or a head wrap and some headphones. I mean, I'm wearing a very classic straw hat with a tie dyed band on it. And I know that when I wear this I look like an overgrown boy scout. But a hat really can be anything at all. And that's the wonderful thing of it. There has to be for it to look convincing, there has to be a certain beauty about it. I mean, not my hat, but for example, the Schiaparelli shoe hat. It's a fantastic hat which happens to look like a shoe and it has to be that way round. But you know, I'm picking something up. It could be a pair of scissors. It could be anything at all. And sometimes for me, yeah, something which is spontaneous look can look wonderful. But obviously hat making is sometimes very long and laborious and there's many different techniques and there's a real pathway. I mean, people would not not believe the amount of time and complexity it is to make a hat. But yeah, hats can. Hats can be anything. But maybe the most important thing is, I know it sounds really stupid, but hats have sort of got to make you dream not of reality, but the fantasy that you want to have. Maybe you feel a mess and just want to look neat. Maybe you're a regular mom and want to be a princess. Maybe you're a guy, regular guy and you want to be a hot stud. You know, I say that in the third person, by the way, and hats have got that ability. And somehow because it's a hat, it can look convincing, because if you put that information into clothing, it looks like costume. Whereas in a hat, it just looks more throwaway somehow, maybe because you can just take it off your head very easily, as opposed to undressing or redressing or whatever.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I'm actually really glad you said that, because that is something that is so incredible about your work, is that it does make you dream. You do have more recognizable fashion classics that you reimagine. You have berets that you've called the T shirt of hats, which I love. There's cloches and bucket hats in your lines. But then you have these incredible, fantastical dreamscapes that just defy classification and can be enjoyed as you would enjoy any work of art, just by looking at them. And I can imagine when you actually put them on your head and wear them, the transformative power of what you do. It's quite poetic and magical in so many wonderful ways. I'd love if we could talk just a little bit more about the influence of fashion history maybe in your work a little bit. For instance, you've had this incredible Ren at Dior. You've been working with the House at Dior since 1996, which is remarkable. In 2003, your work with John Galliano at Dior, there's this wonderful hat, and you described it as an exclamation mark of lily of the valley, Monsieur Dior's favorite flower, but brought up to date in lacquer red. You've also done a collection based on Simonetta, which is incredibly beautiful. Can you just talk a little bit more about your appreciation of fashion history and how it informs your work, if at all?

[Stephen Jones]

Well, you cannot be a milliner without recognizing fashion history, because so many beautiful hats have been made before in so many beautiful hats. Of course, every milliner working today wants to make something of their own and something new. But, I mean, when I look back, I see these marvelous things made out of extraordinary materials. I mean, actually, what we wear today, nowadays, in 2022, is so incredibly classic. People used to wear crazy things. Oh, my God. Women and men. I mean, very, very extravagant. And hats which were extraordinary shapes. I mean, fashion which is extraordinary shapes. Of course, the reason that they wore them was so often about power and money. The symbol of royalty is a crown. It's not a shoe. And that's a royal hat. The ultimate royal hat. But really, I mean, history. I remember talking about history and millinery. I remember when I was at college going into the library, and there really, in those days, weren't very many fashion books. I mean, literally in the quite large library fashion books was maybe a yard of books on the shelf. And that was it. That was it. That's all existed. They didn't really exist. And underneath that there was a cardboard box with some dusty old Vogue and Harper's Bazaar magazines from the 30s, 40s and 50s that some benefactor had given the college. Nobody ever looked at them. And I remember flicking through them and seeing all these extraordinary photographs by Richard Avedon, Irving Pan, you know, all the greatest photographers. And so often they wear of hats. And so that was an extraordinary inspiration. But, yeah, I mean. I mean, the weirdest thing is, for me, I've been doing it so long now that I sort of made my own history. So it's like.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Oh, absolutely.

[Stephen Jones]

That old thing.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah. I loved one of your collections. I think it was 2017. You'd imagine collaborating with some of, you know, the great haute couturiers of history. So you had, like, hats inspired by Adrian and Charles James and Schiaparelli, Madame Gray, which were absolutely wonderful.

[Stephen Jones]

I love that collection. I love the fact that you really looked into that. There were all the designers who I never worked with. That collection was all about the greats of fashion design and American designers like Adrian, like when Adrian had left MGM and he was doing his haute couture collection out of his salon and he died at quite a young age, but what hats he would like. And I'd actually been to the Adrian and Mr. John archive, which is in LACMA, and I'd photographed some of the drawings there, which were extraordinary, and used that as inspiration. I didn't literally copy them, but they were very strongly inspired by it, but, you know, done completely out of respect. Similarly for American designers. Charles James, I remember when I was on this thing on Core foundation course, before I came to London, I went to an exhibition at the Victorian Albert Museum in London, which was called Fashion 1900-1939, which was actually one of the very first fashion exhibitions in the world. There wasn't fashion exhibitions in the museum. And there was the very famous Charles James jacket in that, which is a white padded satin, which had been famously. It was Charles James, but had been worn by Pat Cleveland in. The photograph, had been illustrated by Antonio. And there it was in this cabinet. And actually had the huge privilege a few years ago to go backstage at the V and A and really examine that jacket.

[Cassidy Zachary]

It's wonderful.

[Stephen Jones]

I made a padded cap reminiscent of that padded jacket. Well, I'd love to say reminiscent of it, actually.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I have to say, oh, you did a beautiful homage. Absolutely. And our dress listeners are actually quite familiar with that jacket because we've talked about it so many times in the show. It's one of the greatest pieces in fashion history because it looks what would be a puffer coat of, you know, to our contemporary eyes. It was made in like 1939, I think, or 1937, which is just remarkable. It's so exquisite.

[Stephen Jones]

And actually, if you see the puffer jackets that people make nowadays, it's actually. Why don't you take inspiration from the Charles James? It's extraordinary.

[Cassidy Zachary]

There's actually a beautiful way to do this in an artistic way that can make it fashion. Yeah, absolutely. So we've talked about that collection and being inspired by designers you did not have the privilege of working with, but you've. In your incredible career, you've worked with a wonderful array of designers from Zandra Rhodes and Vivienne Westwood, Rei Kawakubo, Av, Comme des Garcons, Thierry Mugler, Jean Paul Godier. I mean, the list goes on. Can you maybe just talk to us about some of the designer collaborations and maybe highlighting a few of your favorites or the most memorable? I'm sure that's hard.

[Stephen Jones]

Yeah, it is hard. But you know, there's certain. I mean, for example, Zandra was the first person that I ever worked with and we were introduced by mutual friends and I worked with her for a few shows, but then the next sort of big break really was. It's funny how these things happen and you can never plan it. You have to be a bit of a yes person. But anyway, I appeared in the Culture Club video of do you really want to hurt me? And Boy George was a friend to my. He asked if I could be in it. And I was there in this sort of what looked like a cafe. I'm sitting down talking to this girl and I had a three piece suit on, a zoot suit and affairs. And Jean Paul Gaultier saw that, invited me to model in his collection. I couldn't actually do that, but then I started to work with him and that was that really. My entree into Paris was so working with Jean Paul was extraordinary. I don't work with him and I haven't worked with him for a long time. But very occasionally we do collaborate again and it's great to see him and he's a friend. And every designer who I worked with, I mean, very rarely do people just phone up and say, I'd like to have a hat. It's always through some sort of Introduction somehow. I mean, that's how I started to work at Dior in 96. I mean, well, actually before that, because I was working with John Galliano, and I'd met him because my first assistant became his first assistant. And, you know, even though fashion is this huge business that everybody does slightly know each other or knows somebody who knows somebody, and there's always these connections. It's like museum world or costume world. It's very small. And the great thing about now and the Internet and everything is we do really communicate with each other all the time. All the time.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And I love that we could talk a little bit more about your relationship with John Galliano at Dior, because hands down, some of the most whimsical and creative expressions of hats that you've made are when you collaborated with John. I would argue that you're part and parcel of the success of his tenure there is the incredible creations that you created. And I think he would actually agree with that, because it seemed like the sky was quite literally the limit in what you did. Can you talk a little bit more about that and maybe the storytelling capabilities of your hats? Because I think that was so much a part of that collaboration as well.

[Stephen Jones]

So I just said before, I mean, I'd known John when he was just about to leave college. In the Colin McDowell book, it says that he'd asked me to make hats, and I'd said for him for his final collection or one of his first collection, collection side. I'd said to him, no, I can't actually remember that. But. But anyway, one day I had a phone call from Stephen, his main assistant, and I'd introduced Stephen to John, who said, john would love to work with you. You'd never done it yet. You know each other. You've known each other quite a long time. And this was in 92, 93. And John had just started to work in Paris, and we started to work together. And I remember there was an extraordinary show, which is a very famous show in the world of fashion, which was at the house of Sarah Schlumberger. John showed, I think it was 18 outfits all in black, apart from one which was in pink. And I remember I'd made hats for the show, and John and I were pinning Kate Moss into her little obi sash. And we were just working on it together. We were just pinning together in this sash. And he was holding the fabric and I was pinning, and I was holding the fabric and he was pinning. And we just did this thing. It was like one set of hands. I Remember when we did it and she walked out and she looked absolutely exquisite? We just looked at each other and smiled, and I just knew we understood each other. It was so funny. Communicating through fashion, not by words. That was also a very interesting thing. And I think that's what John did, really, when he was at Dior. He told. The story he told so often was through the hats. And he would brief me before the collections quite a few months, sometimes only a few days, but normally a few months before. And he would say, you know, there's a Chinese princess, and she runs away to Egypt, and there she meets an Irish tinker, and they go on a cruise down the Nile, and. And she becomes friends with a zebra, and she paints her coat to look like the fabulous zebra stripes, but it's got a Chinese twist to it, you know? And so he would say, tell me all these wonderful stories. And I would put that story and make a hat out of it. And often the hats and the shoes and the makeup would become before the dresses. But he was thinking the dresses were in his hat. He designed that. But things became reality, often sooner in the hats than in the clothing. But we just complimented each other. I mean, he had a great team. And it was a wonderful, creative time at Dior that lasted 15 years. You know, also, what's so extraordinary about that time is now when a designer goes to a. A couture house or a big house, they think, well, keep everything to. They can stay there three years, five years, seven years. When we went to Dior, we thought we were going there forever. Of course, it didn't work out that way, for reasons we all know, but we went into it that way that we thought that we were Dior and Dior was us. We didn't separate ourselves from it. And also, I think what was extremely unusual about John at Dior was so many other designers, when they go to a house, you know, they're fantastic designers. They learn that design brief. But John had always been influenced by Dior. If you look at his work in London, it's always. Or his early work in Paris is so often interpretations of Dior and Monsieur Dior's look. And John was fascinated by Monsieur Dior ever since I knew him, because Monsieur Dior had created that whole world and that whole language in 10 years. I mean, an ironic thing was that, of course, after 10 years, Monsieur Dior died. The pressure was too great. It killed him. And John, you know, had all the troubles and went through all the things that he did do. I mean, now he's much better. And in fact, this season for Margiela, I was delighted to work with him again, which was the first time, really, since his first collection at Maggiella. I made one hat for him, Maggiella. But I'm very proud of the work that I did with John Fourdior. John's very proud of the work he did then and is very happy for it to be shown in the Met and in other museums around the world to appreciate the wonderful things that did together. But it is the past for us as well.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yeah, you're both inarguably part of that DNA now of the house and the legacy and history of Dior. I think you had something like 150 pieces in the recent Dior exhibition, for instance.

[Stephen Jones]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It actually is funny. For example, in Brooklyn, I mean, obviously there's Mr. Dior, then Yves Saint Laurent, then Mark Bohm, Monsieur Ferreira, John Raph, Maria Grazia. But actually, I have more work in there than anybody.

[April Callahan]

Exactly.

[Stephen Jones]

I said, not in the least egocentric, but it is funny when I count up and I see. And I've been there a long time. But also, the great thing is, you know, Dior is the only haute couture house which has got its own millinery workroom. And Monsieur Arnaud absolutely believes in supporting it and believes in the beauty of Dior. And the funny thing is, if you're somebody from anywhere on the planet and you think about French fashion, it's probably got a big skirt on it, and it's wearing a hat, and it's wearing a Dior hat.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Absolutely. One of the most. Yeah. Unforgettable moments in fashion history are the 10 years that Dior was in charge of his own house. And then second to that, I would say the reign of John Galliano at Dior from the 90s into the 2000s. So I know that your time is limited with us today. So in closing, I just wanted to ask you about the significance of hats, because I think, as with any element of fashion, people can, you know, in general reduce hats to mere aesthetics or functionality. But as we know, there's so much more than that. So in your opinion, in closing, why are hats such an important part of what we wear? Have we worn and will continue to wear into the future?

[Stephen Jones]

Well, number one, they're so visible, because if you see somebody from 100 yards away, you know, if they've got a hat on, that will be immediately obvious. You might check out the rest of their silhouette. But the fact they're wearing a hat is sort of unusual. And I'm sure people will look back in 500 years time and think it's really weird. At the end of the 20th and beginning of the 21st century people didn't wear hats every day. That's so strange because it's the only time in history that people have not worn hats. I mean, of course there's certain things like getting into a car and heating and all of that, but hats are the most important accessory because they're the most visible and they're a symbol of ourselves, of who we want to be. And they're like a passport to another world.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Well, Stephen, thank you so much for being with us today. This was an absolutely wonderful conversation.

[Stephen Jones]

My pleasure. And lovely to see you. Very pleased you got a hat on.

[Cassidy Zachary]

I'm going to put mine back on.

[Stephen Jones]

Guys don't normally wear hats inside. I'm very old fashioned like that. So I always take off my hat even when I come into my work from here.

[April Callahan]

Steven, thank you so much for joining us today.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Yes, thank you Steven so much. And thank you of course to his wonderful assistant Annika for making this all a reality. Dress listeners, for more on Stephen's work check out his website stephenjonesmillonry.com and of course his wonderful Instagram by the same name, StephenJonesmillary for a daily dose of his work.

[April Callahan]

And that does it for us today. Dress listeners, may you consider adding a hat as the exclamation mark on your outfit next time you get dressed?

Please head to Dressed Underscore podcast on Instagram or Rest podcast without the underscore on Facebook to check out the visual content associated with each week's episodes.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And remember, we always love hearing from you. So if you'd like to write to us you can do [e-mail] DressedHistory.com is also our website where you can you can sign up for our monthly newsletter, our in person tours and online fashion history courses and you can check out whatever else we have up our finely tailored sleeves.

[April Callahan]

We get so many questions from you all about our recommendations for fashion history books. So if you are interested you can always find a link in our show notes to our Bookshop Bookshelf. So that address is bookshop.org shop forward/dress and there you can find over 150 of our favorite fashion history titles.

[Cassidy Zachary]

And do you love dressed but want to skip the ads? You can now sign up for ad free listening with any tier on our dressed history Patreon.

[April Callahan]

We are also excited to now be part of the Airwave Network and their premium ad free history subscription Airwave History plus available on Apple Podcasts. The subscription brings dress and also 27 and other popular history podcasts ad free for just $5.99 per month. More information on Patreon and Airwave is available at the link in our bio.

[Cassidy Zachary]

Thank you as always for tuning in and more Dressed coming your way very soon. The History of Fashion is a production of Dressed Media.

[Stephen Jones]

Lifelock how can I help?

[April Callahan]

The IRS said I filed my return, but I haven't.

[Lifelock Representative]

One in four tax paying Americans has paid the price of identity fraud.

[Cassidy Zachary]

What do I do? My refund though. I'm freaking out. Don't worry, I can fix this.

[Lifelock Representative]

Lifelock fixes identity theft guaranteed and gets your money back with up to $3 million in coverage.

[April Callahan]

I'm so relieved.

[Queens Podcast Host]

No problem.

[Stephen Jones]

I'll be with you every step of the way.

[Lifelock Representative]

One in four was a fraud paying American. Not anymore. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.