Brian Hubbard (7:22)

I'm overdressed.

Duncan Trussell (7:23)

I wish you told me you're wearing a suit. I've got a suit.

Brian Hubbard (7:25)

I wish I didn't have to wear one. If I hadn't been in the Capitol building, I'd look more like you, which is what I prefer.

Duncan Trussell (7:30)

What are you doing at the Capitol building?

Brian Hubbard (7:33)

Well, I have the very distinct pleasure and opportunity to be down here to try and be a servant of the Texas Ibogaine Initiative, which was announced by Governor Perry and I back on the Joe rogan podcast.

Duncan Trussell (7:46)

Yeah.

Brian Hubbard (7:47)

January 2nd of this year, we're trying to persuade the politicians over there to set aside a relatively modest $50 million out of a $20 billion state budget surplus to create a public private partnership that will the FDA's approval of ibogaine as a breakthrough therapeutic for substance use.

Duncan Trussell (8:08)

What do you think is more like, if you had to. Like, if you had to put bets on it and, like, you know, you didn't know the outcome of either of these. But I said, okay, what do you want to put money on? Moses going into Egypt and telling the pharaoh to let the Jews go? Are you kidding? Ibogaine to Texas?

Brian Hubbard (8:34)

Well, let me just say, to even be mentioned in the same sentence with Moses makes me want to crawl under this table for fear of the lightning that might hit us.

Duncan Trussell (8:43)

Well, I mean, it is a weirdly similar archetype, if you think about it. It's a tough sell. Ibogaine's a tough sell anywhere. I mean, from what I've heard about it, it's not exactly a recreational substance. It sounds terrifying, potentially. You know, if it can be very dangerous, I've heard. But then take that. You're talking about a relatively obscure psychedelic that seemingly cures opioid addiction, and then bringing that to Texas, which is a state that has fairly strict laws regarding Psychedelics, that is a tough seller.

Brian Hubbard (9:22)

Well, this entire experience going back to the first time I heard about ibogaine in July of 2022, has been remarkable in terms of not just the substance of the opportunity around ibogaine's development itself, but the grand sociology experiment in which I've gotten to participate as this discussion has unfolded over the past past three years. Surprisingly enough, it has been my observation that the audience that one would least expect to be open to the use of a psychedelic medication to treat addiction issues. The reception has been surprisingly strong when it is properly explained to an individual who is willing to be open minded to alternative possibilities to what we have. I think anybody in current American society can recognize not just by statistics, but by their own personal observation in society that despite our best efforts and the deployment of multiple billions of dollars over the past 29 years, and if you go back to 1996 when OxyContin was first introduced into Appalachia, we are now in the 29th year of America's opioid epidemic.

Duncan Trussell (10:40)

Right.

Brian Hubbard (10:42)

The options that we have are delivering unacceptably mediocre results.

Duncan Trussell (10:47)

Yeah.

Brian Hubbard (10:47)

If we are going to create a dynamic that will generationally alter the trajectory of the opioid epidemic, we've got to look for alternatives. And my Abigail certainly sounded too good to be true to me when I first encountered it. There is no question, but this is the Manhattan Project opportunity of our age, not just to fundamentally transform how we deal with individuals addiction, but how we also address neurological conditions that impact the brain for which we currently don't have any good answers.

Duncan Trussell (11:18)

This. Yeah, I could understand why people would be skeptical, especially people who have gone through the hell of having an opioid addict in their family, in their circle of friends who've watched what is essentially a. I mean it's a demonic possession. I don't know any better word for it. I know you probably can't say that when you're trying to, but I'm allowed to say things like that when you look at the impact that these people are having not just on themselves or watching the hedonic pursuit transform into a kind of hyper aggression against people they love most, this mixes in with a kind of black hole level selfishness, mixes in with just losing all trust, burning all bridges, destroying not just their life, but generally everyone's life around them, usually bringing babies into the equation during the downward spiral. And so to hear after having someone you love go through halfway houses, 12 step programs, all the promises, wondering how is the legal system not equipped to deal with this getting to the dark point where you think it would be better that they are in jail, why do they keep letting them out? Every time they get out, they just hurt more people. And then it gets even darker than that. So to hear that there is some tree bark that you could give someone and it would heal them completely, it does sound like a big promise for an unsolvable problem.

Brian Hubbard (13:11)

Yes. And this gets into the necessity of coherent and credible explanation of its attributes in a way that reinforces its credible reality.

Duncan Trussell (13:26)

Right.

Brian Hubbard (13:27)

So as I started my process of examining whether or not this was too good to be true, I engaged in what was at least a six month, second off the books, part time, full time job in which I examined academic research, spoke to individuals who had received, provided or had sent loved ones for ibogaine treatment. And at the time in which I learned about it, I had established myself as a fairly effective public servant in the state of Kentucky, had a significant amount of credibility and capital to deploy. And at the conclusion of what was a very extensive due diligence and critical examination exercise, I came to the conclusion that without doubt, I began presenting the very best possibility for us to change the future of a addiction treatment and the generational trajectory of the opioid epidemic in America. I came to that conclusion because of ibogaine's chief three attributes that I would describe as the following. Number one, you have just given a beautiful description of the behavior that we can observe out of individuals who are in particular dependent on opioids. And for the longest time, I think a lot of folks have concluded that opioid dependent individuals who engage in all of the destructive behaviors that come with that have in some way fallen into a self perpetuating cycle of moral failure. And that if we could just get it through their thick heads about the erroneous nature of their ways and administer the proper punishments, that they will snap out of it. Well, as we've watched this play out over what's now three decades and we've come to understand the science of the brain, what we can now recognize and understand is that the behavior of an opioid dependent individual, which by all objective measures appears to be that of completely morally depraved criminality.

Duncan Trussell (15:26)

Yeah.

Brian Hubbard (15:27)

Is in fact behavior that is driven by a profound neurochemical brain injury. An opioid dependent individual, their brain cannot produce dopamine and serotonin absent the ingestion of ever escalating dosages of opioids. Which is why when someone becomes dependent, they have to continually over time increase the amount that they take in order to get the same effect. The effect is the high. The high is the tremendous spike and dopamine response that the opioid triggers in the brain. When the person stops taking the opioid, the dopamine production stops. And I'm referencing dopamine because dopamine is the most baseline instinctual neurochemical driver of of all basic human behavior. Eating, drinking, procreate and fighting and flighting. Yeah, those are all baseline survival instincts driven by dopamine. When a person is deprived of opioid source who is dependent on it for the delivery of dopamine, they will do anything that it takes to be able to satiate the brains. Dopamine starvation, which is what leads to all of this destructive behavior. The reason why we have such modest results from our existing treatment. And I'll quantify what those results are. Abstinence based treatment, where a person just quits cold turkey and tries to resolve their own addiction has about a 7% success rate.

Duncan Trussell (16:59)

Wow, that's pretty low.

Brian Hubbard (17:01)

Very best model that we have is methadone and it has about a 25% success rate. It's six months.

Duncan Trussell (17:09)

Wait, I'm sorry. Methadone. I've never really understood what is methadone and how does that treatment get someone to stop using opioids?

Brian Hubbard (17:18)

Methadone and its companion, which is known by the generic name buprenorphine, which has the brand names of Suboxone, Sublocade, Subutext and others.

Duncan Trussell (17:29)

You know, an aside, I was on the road in my wilder days. I don't know why someone gave me a Suboxone patch, but they did. And I don't know why I put it on my arm, but I did. It was the worst two days of my life. I was puking, went mildly deaf.

Brian Hubbard (17:46)

Are you suggesting that Suboxone could be obtained in a black market? Are you suggesting that Suboxone diversion is a real thing?

Duncan Trussell (17:55)

Some asshole gave me a Suboxone patch. I thought this will give me some nice mild high. Again, these were the wilder days. Thank you God for keeping me alive. And I didn't look. Why would you Google what Suboxone is or I wouldn't have taken. I didn't know the half Life is like 48 hours, but it was a nightmare. So I really don't understand how Suboxone, if I am taking an opioid ascending to the great heights that it offers, and then someone smacks a Suboxone patch on my arm, I don't see how that's going to sober me up.

Brian Hubbard (18:33)

Well, that's why Suboxone treatment has about an 18% success rate. Opioid maintenance treatment encompasses methadone and suboxone.

Duncan Trussell (18:44)

Okay.

Brian Hubbard (18:44)

And the rationale is this, and I understand when it was created on the front end of the opioid epidemic, why well intentioned researchers believe that this was the best way to go. What you're trying to do is to restore the dependent human being to a degree of functionality that will allow them to live a normal life defined by their choices of normalcy within the bounds of the law, whatever that is.

Duncan Trussell (19:10)

Right.

Brian Hubbard (19:11)

And because of the brain's inability to produce dopamine and serotonin, you have to figure out a way to remove opioid use that has such consumption as to empower functionality while preventing the withdrawal that comes from dopamine starvation. So the answer to that was we are going to develop an opioid with which to treat opioid dependence. Except this opioid is not going to be quite as potent, but it will be potent enough to not trigger withdrawal.

Duncan Trussell (19:44)

Okay.

Brian Hubbard (19:44)

So you essentially provide methadone and Suboxone to maintain someone with the consumption of opioids in order to prevent withdrawal, but you never bring them to the point of complete abstinence, and you never restore the brain to its natural pre opioid stasis where it is producing its own dopamine and serotonin. The person is still physiologically dependent on the opioid, though their functionality may be restored.

Duncan Trussell (20:10)

So. So that means that foreign. This episode of the DTFH has been supported by BetterHelp. How often do we talk about the relationship? Red flags. You know what I mean? You're on a first date with somebody, they reach into their purse and they pull out a rat carcass. That's a red flag. Probably a sign that you should not keep going out with them unless you're into it. That being said, maybe if you'd listened, you'd realize they're a taxidermist and they didn't have time to take the rat carcass that they got from someone who loved that rat so much back to their studio to get to work. And so they just shoved it in their purse. But then you notice their purse is made of human flesh. Red flag. So what about the green flags? Don't you wish you knew what they were? Maybe if you did, you wouldn't always be getting divorced if you're not sure what they look like. Therapy can help you identify green flags, actively practice them in your relationship and embody the green Flag energy yourself. You know, I gotta admit it, you know, anytime I've gone on a date with somebody before I was married and they're just like, no, something I did freaked them out. And they're like, no, you seem nice or whatever, but I'm not doing that. It hurts my feelings, but I always respect it. That's powerful. That is powerful. And most of the time those people had been in therapy. That's how they figure out how to do that. I've benefited from therapy too. Helped me a lot. And yeah, I know it's not like the most popular thing to say out loud because for whatever reason in our weird society, everyone's supposed to have some kind of perfect operating system. And like, yeah, you could break your leg. You can blow your hand off holding a Roman candle on the fourth of July. You can be covered with, with stitches because you were attacked by a wild coyote. And you could say, yeah, I went to the doctor for these things. And everyone's like, yeah, you should have. But what therapy? Suddenly that's weird. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient. Serving over 5 million people worldwide. Access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Discovery your relationship green flags with better help. Visit betterhelp.comduncan to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp. H E L p.comduncan thank you. Better help. They have to take methadone for the rest of their lives.

Brian Hubbard (23:34)

In many cases, yes. And I will observe when it comes to buprenorphine or what we call Suboxone, when it was first rolled out, the idea was you give an individual Suboxone and over time, through downward titration, you bring them off. Abstinence. That is no longer the prime objective, at least from those researchers I've been around who supported promulgation. The objective now is to make sure that the person is compliant with their medication regimen for the rest of their life. Compliance, not abstinence. That is the objective.

Duncan Trussell (24:07)

If I'm running a pharmaceutical company, that is good news, correct? That is incredible. It's like, not like. So essentially the big pharma replaces the drug dealer of the opioid addict by giving them this low level legal opioid that doesn't get them quite as high, but makes it so they don't get sick.

Brian Hubbard (24:30)

You've got it. And the people who make the treatment are the people who made the problem. Oh, it's A very nice self reinforcing circle of self interest.

Duncan Trussell (24:42)

That is amazing.

Brian Hubbard (24:43)

Yes, sir.

Duncan Trussell (24:44)

That is. That is just really crazy. That is like dropping bombs on people, then coming in with ambulances and getting them to pay for the medical care. That is wild.

Brian Hubbard (25:00)

Very similar. I would also use an analogy that would come straight natural from somebody who's coming from Kentucky. If you. It's. It's analogous to taking someone who's drinking a bottle of Wild Turkey every day and instead giving them a six pack of beer and saying, here, drink this six pack instead of that bottle of whiskey. You still going to need the alcohol, but it's just not going to mess you up as bad as what you've been doing.

Duncan Trussell (25:25)

Oh my God. That is hopeless and horrible. Just my experience with Suboxone alone, you know, I've only had one intravenous injection of synthetic opioids when I got my ball cut off. And I knew it's the only time I'm going to be able to safely get synthetic heroin. I'm not a big fan of opioids. They make me sick. But I'm in a hospital. I'm curious about states of consciousness. So they asked me, are you in a lot of pain? And I said, oh, it is terrible. I felt fine. They injected me with Dilaudid. Now I just gotten my testicle chopped off because of testicular cancer. Not exactly what you call the best day in your life. The moment that stuff hit my veins, it was the damnedest thing. Not what I expected either. Like, you know, you watch the any movie where they romanticize heroin. It seemed it wasn't what I expected because it was like instantly I was having the best day of my life. It wasn't like a highlight. I can't even explain it. It was just suddenly I'm like, oh my God, everything's great.

Brian Hubbard (26:29)

You were in dopamine bliss. And give your audience some perspective, if you don't mind.

Duncan Trussell (26:35)

I don't mind.

Brian Hubbard (26:37)

And this was taught to me by a better teacher than I am. Dopamine production is measured in a metric unit that is called a nanogram. And an anagram is part of a deciliter. So the human body on its own has a maximum dopamine production potential of 125 nanograms per deciliter. That's the most that we can produce on our own. The ingestion of an opioid produces a dopamine response of 925 nanograms per deciliter. Almost 10 times what the human body can produce on its Own. So you got to experience the 925 nanogram per deciliter dopamine response.

Duncan Trussell (27:23)

I was having nine great days. That's nine people's maximum great day compressed into one day.

Brian Hubbard (27:30)

Yes.

Duncan Trussell (27:30)

And when that wore off, it was just a nightmare. A nightmare. And though I, you know, I mean, luckily I'm making light of it. I don't mean to be a complete, like go into dad mode here. Anyone listening? Don't do it. You know, I've heard this explained to me that it's sort of a roll of the dice, like, whereas, like I just crashed and just dealt with being a one testicle human. The beginning phases of grief for my paw. Where is it? Is it in a dumpster? You gotta wonder.

Brian Hubbard (28:03)

Well, we get to know each other real well here right off the bat, ain't we?

Duncan Trussell (28:09)

I didn't really, like, I wasn't like, oh my God, I want to shoot up again. But I've heard that, and correct me if I'm wrong here, I've heard that for some people, they get that injection and there's some kind of immediate change in brain topography or something, and that's it.

Brian Hubbard (28:26)

Opioid dependency is determined in large part by our individual genetics. Some people have hard wiring to where if they receive an opioid, it makes them sick, they hate it, and they get no benefit out of it, and it's never a problem. Other individuals can receive an opioid and they almost immediately require its continual delivery in order to function. Now, I had a similar experience to what you described, though not quite as personally invasive.

Duncan Trussell (28:56)

Forgive me first. I'm so sorry.

Brian Hubbard (29:00)

No, listen, I appreciate authenticity and you've delivered it. I had the. I had a septoplasty. I had a deviated septum that was, was obscuring an air passageway back in 2021. So they fix my septum and I was given a 10 day supply of Norco to kind of manage the pain symptoms. And I waited until nighttime because they advised that this thing would make me drowsy. Well, there was no question after I took that first Norco that I am absolutely hardwired to be opioid dependent.

Duncan Trussell (29:36)

Yeah.

Brian Hubbard (29:36)

The sensation that you describe of just tremendous physiological satisfaction with that Norco was unmistakable. And I was very careful about my consumption because of what I immediately recognized as the potential to obliterate myself with it.

Duncan Trussell (29:54)

Yep, that. And so. Yeah. And that, you know, because this, it's not like, it's not like this is unknown. So anytime someone at a hospital is like, how are you feeling? And you're like, I just broke my leg. How do you think? And they're like, okay, we're gonna make your pain go away. They know that there is some probability that this person, after their leg heals, is gonna remember that day for the rest of their lives and wanna have that day again. And this is where you get this infernal connection to Big Pharma, which is that this is known data. And then what ends up happening is you put someone in this dark pipeline where they become either addicted to Norco, Vicodin, whatever it is, or, as you just taught me, Suboxone or methadone. In other words, you just attach a manacle that leads all the way to some pharmaceutical company and they're going to juice you for the rest of your life. And that, I don't know if. I mean, you hear about a lot of dark stuff these days. Conspiracy theories, reptilians, all that stuff. But look no further than this.

Brian Hubbard (31:08)

That's right.

Duncan Trussell (31:09)

Vampires are real.

Brian Hubbard (31:10)

Yeah. Yes, they are. And have you ever heard of a book called Empire of Pain by a gentleman named Patrick Rad?

Duncan Trussell (31:17)

Have not.

Brian Hubbard (31:18)

There's a book called Empire of Pain, and it's by Patrick Radden Keefe. And I can't remember the year in which it was published, but before I even knew, my gig as chairman of the Opioid Commission in Kentucky was on the horizon. I happened to read this book in April of 22, and it is a history of essentially, the Sackler families. The Sackler family's creation of Purdue Pharma all the way back to its very beginning and the way in which it evolved into to be in the manufacturer of America's opioid epidemic through the deployment of OxyContin. And what the book makes very clear in concrete, historically documented reality, is that the opioid epidemic, precipitated by the creation and detonation of OxyContin, particularly in areas that have had generational issues related to poverty, joblessness, and high levels of disability, was a premeditated act. The opioid epidemic, absolutely premeditated. The addictive nature of OxyContin was known by its creators. Purdue Pharma, most folks don't know, was the inventor and producer of Valium back in the 50s, 60s and 70s. And there was a companion company that the Sacklers created that did nothing other than capture and analyze data. And what they observed was that the communities which had the highest dispensation rates of valium in the 60s and 70s were also those very same communities that had the Highest rates of generational joblessness, poverty, and disability. When it came time to market and distribute OxyContin, they relied upon the data distribution maps for Valium to inform their marketing strategy for OxyContin.

Duncan Trussell (33:12)

Wow.

Brian Hubbard (33:13)

They essentially used the pipeline of poverty through which to deliver the poison of their pills to captive populations who rely on public benefit systems to essentially deliver medical services that are founded upon high powered pharmacology to anesthetize human beings to the pain that they live with every single day.

Duncan Trussell (33:39)

Also known as the Ten crack Commandments. Now, the. The Sacklers. Good news. They're all in jail. Now, isn't that great? We arrested every single one of them because obviously, people in jail. Oh, everyone. Because our judicial system understands that if, you know, some vampiric dark family, some families so vampiric and horrific that even in fiction no one's ever written. Usually, like, you know, vampires, they come in like ones, you get Dracula, you know, But a whole family of alchemical vampires intentionally putting their dark fishing hooks into impoverished people so that they will make money via insurance companies. Yeah. They arrested every single one life in prison. Right.

Brian Hubbard (34:32)

I didn't think. I don't think anybody's been arrested out of their family.

Duncan Trussell (34:35)

Are you kidding? Can you look that up? Josh, Aren't all the Sacklers in jail right now? Are under the jail price? Some of them have the death penalty. I mean, that kind of thing. They count many people. They. How many people would you say have died because of the Sacklers and what they did?

Brian Hubbard (34:48)

Oh, if. If. If we go back to the very beginning, we. And if we. If we tie the deployment of OxyContin to the evolution of the opioid epidemic through the heroin phase and now into the fentanyl phase, we are well into the seven figures.

Duncan Trussell (35:08)

Seven figures?

Brian Hubbard (35:09)

Yes, sir.

Duncan Trussell (35:10)

Seven figures. Now, if. I mean, and this is. I'm sorry to ask you to do ridiculous math, but on average, how much money do you think the Sacklers made per Oxy addict prior to them dying?

Brian Hubbard (35:27)

I wouldn't be able to break it down on an individual level, but what we know is that at its height and at its most profitable, a span that went for about 10 or 12 years, OxyContin sales for Purdue Pharma were $100 million a month. So to put that in perspective, the state of Kentucky, which, along with West Virginia and other portions of central and southern Appalachia, were ground zero for the deployment of OxyContin. The state settlements with opioid distributors and manufacturers currently stands at about $900 million. That money will be paid out over 15 years. So the entire state of Kentucky for the carnage that has been unleashed it for 30 years now will get in 15 years what Purdue Pharma made in nine months of OxyContin sales. Wow, that gives you perspective.

Duncan Trussell (36:24)

Last thing I have to ask about the Sackler vampires and all the other vampires who are doing this kind of. I mean, for lack of a better word, chemical warfare on Americans. Do you think that they have something to do with the. Okay, let's talk about the. And I know a lot of this is just families. When they're going through having someone going through addiction, you need to build some kind of defense mechanism. And to do that, you invent, like, just what you said, a lack of moral character. These people are liars, cowards. They don't want to face their own pain. They're weaklings. Certainly the moment you humanize them the way you are, which is like, no, you don't understand. They have a traumatic brain injury, then suddenly all the walls you're building so that your heart doesn't have to be broken, they fall back down. But do you think any of that sort of characterization of the opioid addict is actually. Those flames are fanned by Big Pharma because it serves their purpose? In other words, if we start connecting the dots here, then suddenly the opioid addict doesn't become like, the spotlight's not on the opioid addict anymore, but on the strings that are making the opioid addict do all the many things that we. We've all suffered from.

Brian Hubbard (37:48)

That's a very astute observation. And with reference, back to the book Empire of Painting. I'm not here to hock it. It just happens to be the best, most comprehensive history I've read of Purdue Pharma, the Sacklers, and how it all played out when OxyContin deaths started to be reported in newspapers and the leadership of Purdue Farmer recognized that they had a significant public relations problem on their hands, the instant response given was, these individuals are morally deficient people.

Duncan Trussell (38:24)

There you go.

Brian Hubbard (38:25)

And we are not at fault for the moral reprobate who decides to make recreational use of a medication that is supposed to appropriately and responsibly treat pain. Their moral failure is not our response.

Duncan Trussell (38:39)

There you go.

Brian Hubbard (38:40)

So the moral failure of this human being is. Is what has been used as a shield from liability for the engineered addictive nature of that medication.

Duncan Trussell (38:50)

Wow. Without question, that is incredibly evil.

Brian Hubbard (38:54)

Here's other thing I'll mention, and I know that this might Be skipping a little bit ahead in conversational progression as I have been pursuing this ibogaine mission. It has been ironic to me to encounter lots of individuals within academic and public health medicine who are entirely comfortable delivering treatment to people who are in distress that essentially serve to anesthetize the soul and slowly euthanize the body, while simultaneously being very opposed to anything that may allow a human being to feel the existence of their eternal soul.

Duncan Trussell (39:34)

That's what I want to get to, because here. So you would think that, big pharma aside, you would think that, and I know there's real good data out there on ibogaine's, fascinating stuff actually, and I would like to hear the explanation for why this heals addiction. But you would think that the moment that a treatment emerged that could get your son, your daughter, your dad back, that this would just be embraced at all levels at state, federal government, that people would be overjoyed to hear this. I mean, just from a purely monetary, dark perspective, the cost of addiction in a community is. I can't even imagine what that could be. I mean, aside from having the jail time, theft, all of that stuff, to remove this plague from any community, it's going to help the economy. Obviously there's more important things than the damn economy. But the cynical part of me thinks sometimes that's all some people in the government are thinking about. But at least that's a good selling point alone. And then you get to the spiritual reality, the healing that could happen. And also just like, whoa, if this substance can heal almost horrific things that can happen to a person outside of cancer, other terminal diseases, what are we working with here? What is this stuff? It implies a lot more is going on there, doesn't it? Is a healing modality, you know. So why isn't it being used right now in rehabilitation centers across the country?

Brian Hubbard (41:34)

Well, whether by accident or design, it's my humble opinion that many government systems we currently have essentially commodify the problems that they are supposed to solve first and foremost for their own the perpetuation of their own self interest in the acquisition of resources, importance and consequence within society. Government agencies are not any more interested in making themselves extinct than the pharmaceutical industry is on making the diseases that they treat with chronicity extinct through the development of cures. These government systems often monetize sustained human misery as part of that commodification process. So when you have a symbiotic relationship between government and industry that relies upon the perpetuation of a problem rather than solving it, if something comes along to disrupt the mutually beneficial revenue model on which they both depend, they gonna get together and they gonna kill it.

Duncan Trussell (42:34)

Right.

Brian Hubbard (42:35)

That's a reality. Now, as I sit here and say this to you, I can't hardly believe how conspiratorial that I sound. Having always been someone who has escaped feud, that kind of thinking, sure. But I've had the opportunity to watch it, to witness it, and to be on the receiving end of it around the Ibogaine project and in other contexts as well.

Duncan Trussell (42:57)

Right.

Brian Hubbard (42:57)

I've told this story before about the experience running Kentucky Social Security Disability Program. And this really is astounding. Between 1980 and 2015, a 35 year time frame, Kentucky's population grew by 20%. Enrollment in the Social Security Disability Program grew 249%. The enrollment of children in the Disability Program grew 449%. Between 2001 and 2015. The administration of opioid medications to Social Security disability adults increased by 168% percent. Actually, no. 210%. The administration of habituating psychotropic medications to children within the Social Security system increased 168% over that same timeframe. When I was. Pardon me, when I was in my first month on the job, we had a federal official from the Social Security Administration who oversaw our state system come in for a semiannual visit. And I wish that I had recorded their introductory remarks because this person at the very beginning of our meeting with the management team said, folks, claims are down and that's bad, because claims equal budget. And this was concrete confirmation that a government agency that is supposed to deliver the benefits for individuals who are genuinely disabled wants nothing more than to see ever increasing rates of application and awards for individuals who can be absorbed into that system.

Duncan Trussell (44:44)

What? You heard this firsthand?

Brian Hubbard (44:47)

Firsthand.

Duncan Trussell (44:48)

And this is what nobody wants to hear. I mean, this is the thing. It is easier to not believe this stuff, to believe it forces, at the very least, you know, some kind of cognitive action, you know. In other words, ignorance in this case is bliss. Yeah, absolutely. Because the general idea is, you know, various levels of government responsible for administering some kind of service to the community using tax money. You like to imagine the people in those jobs are these kinds of benevolent angels, public servants. They could have had any job they wanted, maybe made some more money, but they decided, no, I am going to help. I'm going to give up my dream of being a rock star. I could have been a rock star. No, no, no, I'm going to work in the Social Security Administration. And make sure that people who can't afford medical care get the medical care they need. Cut to you getting a. A terrible teaching in reality. And some. Again, I don't mean to use these words, but for lack of a better word, it's a demon. It's like, listen, you want the budget cut, then don't really help these people all the way, because otherwise we're going to lose money.

Brian Hubbard (46:13)

Keep them there.

Duncan Trussell (46:14)

Keep them there.

Brian Hubbard (46:15)

So, another story I'll tell you in this one is Kentucky specific, but it's not unique.

Duncan Trussell (46:35)

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Brian Hubbard (50:34)

I remember. I think it was in 2018, 2019. For years there had been a tremendous amount of distress within Kentucky counties about county jails housing state prisoners. Now, probably two thirds of Kentucky's county and state prison population, they are there for substance use issues, the overwhelming majority of which are opioid issues. The counties would say state is overwhelming our ability to maintain our jails because of how many state inmates were housing. We've got to have some relief. So individuals who came to recognize that we cannot incarcerate our way out of drug addiction. There has to be a different approach because the incarceration model has not worked and will never work decided that they would pursue some criminal justice reform legislation that would result in the depopulation of the county jails of state prisoners who have been incarcerated for substance use issues. This should have been received with enthusiasm because the counties had been complaining for years about the overcrowding of their facilities with state prisoners who've been locked up for drug addiction issues. So this legislation starts moving through and guess who is opposed? Can't imagine the counties themselves because once the legislation was put out, they did the math on the per diem reimbursement rate they were receiving from the state. And they recognized that if the state let out nonviolent drug offenders from county jails, they were going to lose the money that came with housing them, Right? So while they had previously been complaining about the overcrowding and the conditions and the difficulties, the even greater problem became the loss of revenue. If the state were to release nonviolent drug offenders and they got their act together and opposed it with full force.

Duncan Trussell (52:38)

Wow.

Brian Hubbard (52:39)

Government has a vested interest in the perpetuation of the problems that it seeks to solve, because if you solve those problems, all of a sudden you don't need the same scale and scope of administrative bureau bureaucracy that you once did. And that means it gets the ax.

Duncan Trussell (52:58)

To quote a Lyft driver, he said this to me years ago. If you make umbrellas, you need a terrain.

Brian Hubbard (53:08)

That's beautifully said and exactly right. If you make umbrellas, you needed to rain. I'm gonna have to use that one. I don't guess you know that Lyft driver's name, so I credit him to you.

Duncan Trussell (53:18)

I know I don't, but it blew my mind when he said that.

Brian Hubbard (53:21)

And it's amazing. It's amazing the wisdom that you can get from lifting Uber drivers if you just engage them in conversation. It's fabulous.

Duncan Trussell (53:29)

I am convinced they're oracles sometimes. And it's. I don't know what that is, but that's a different podcast. Let's get into this. Ibogaine. I'm. First of all, I'd love to know briefly, what is the structural damage that happens to the human brain after opioid addiction? What are we looking at there neurologically? Can you see it on an mri? Is it distinguishable? Like if I take the brain of an opioid addict, put it next to a healthy human brain, what's the difference?

Brian Hubbard (54:01)

There is a significant decrease in frontal lobe activity with individuals who are opioid dependent. The frontal lobe being the region of the brain responsible for all of our executive function and decision making and just basic day to day living.

Duncan Trussell (54:15)

Okay.

Brian Hubbard (54:15)

There is a substantial decrease and frontal lobe neural activity within the brain of an opioid dependent individual.

Duncan Trussell (54:23)

And this is both sides of the brain are just lobe is right.

Brian Hubbard (54:28)

Right across the front on both sides. And when you, when you image the electrical activity, you're able to see a significant diminishment of within the frontal region.

Duncan Trussell (54:37)

And what, what. So what is the explanation for why that's happened? That's just. There's not enough dopamine happening or is there another explanation for. Is there scarring that's happened to the brain? Is there a lack of neural connections that's happening?

Brian Hubbard (54:52)

You are. I'm a lawyer because I can't do math and science. So in some ways you're asking me a question that goes beyond just a very rough and approximate ability to explain. The best thing that I can say is that opioids depress the body's metabolism, all spheres. It is a depressant. So you're slowing down your metabolic function, you're slowing down your brain's neural activity, and over the long term, that depressant effect can assume permanency.

Duncan Trussell (55:27)

Okay, just.

Brian Hubbard (55:28)

Why? When somebody has been dependent long term, whether they've gone through an abstinence program or whether they have use medically assisted treatment, if they ever do fully come off, oftentimes there will be permanent impairments of executive function. And because of the way in which the brain's activity has been rewired and permanently changed by opioid dependence.

Duncan Trussell (55:48)

So the dimmer switch just stays down. It's not going. Okay, so ibogaine. What is it? First of all, where. How did you encounter this stuff? And then, most importantly, what's it doing? Why is it that there's so many reports that people who are like late stage opioid addicts. One session I've heard and it's gone.

Brian Hubbard (56:19)

Yes.

Duncan Trussell (56:20)

So first of all, how did you stumble upon this stuff and what are the theories on why that's happening?

Brian Hubbard (56:27)

So back in 2018, I started noticing stories about the discovery of psilocybin's impact on alcoholism.

Duncan Trussell (56:40)

Yeah.

Brian Hubbard (56:41)

And the degree to which psilocybin was able to essentially help people who had been alcohol dependent for decades stop drinking.

Duncan Trussell (56:49)

Right.

Brian Hubbard (56:49)

I come from a family that has a just terrible, terrible generational history of alcohol dependency. It has caused tremendous damage to my. To my kin for as long as anyone can remember. I was probably in my early 20s before I could be in around an adult holding an open can of beer and may not almost have a total panic attack. Seeing it mean it's. It's been wicked.

Duncan Trussell (57:14)

Yeah. Because you saw the shift.

Brian Hubbard (57:15)

Yes.

Duncan Trussell (57:16)

As a kid, that shift. We see your dad with the booze.

Brian Hubbard (57:19)

Or any other relative who's a grown man and you're a small child and you watch it go down. It's a terrifying experience.

Duncan Trussell (57:25)

Yes.

Brian Hubbard (57:26)

So in 2018, I saw that psilocybin demonstrated some dramatic effects on essentially helping resolve alcoholism. And I started following with some consistency the degree to which scientific research was beginning to validate the therapeutic application of particular psychedelics to treatment resistant dependent depression, anxiety and alcoholism. I came across an author who writes a substack publication called the Journey. And the pen name of the individual is Julie Julia Christina. I believe her real name is Julia Ra Belt. And she wrote about her own experiences using psilocybin to overcome what had been lifelong issues of treatment resistant depression, anxiety, and a near fatal eating disorder. She wrote about her experiences just beautifully. And after I got the job to run the opioid commission in Kentucky, I reached out to her and said, hey, here's my job. I've read your writing is beautiful. I would love to have a conversation with you, if you would be willing, about what may exist within the world of plant medicine that would have application to opioid dependency. So she and I had a telephone call together on July 29th of 2020 too, and she said, have you ever heard of ibogaine? And I hadn't never heard of it in my life. I'm not, not the most well read person, but I've got a wide variety of interest and this was something that was new to me. She in turn put me in touch with a lady named Juliana Mulligan, who's a licensed clinical social worker in New York City and worked in a harm reduction clinic at that time. And she said, I'm gonna put you in touch with Juliana Mulligan and you ask her to tell you about ibogaine. So I contacted Juliana, told her who I was, told her who had referred me, and I said, tell me about ibogaine now. At this point, I had heard thousands of addiction stories of various intensities and destructive dimensions. Juliana had one of the most hardcore addiction stories that I had heard. She had been opioid dependent for about a decade. She had been repeatedly incarcerated. She had been in and out of every treatment program that could be designed to treat opioid addiction. She had been homeless at one point in time. And she explained that just the lifestyle that she had to laid in the United States to secure supply became so just brutal that she wanted to go somewhere where it didn't have to be so bad. She said that she got a job teaching English as a second language classes in Columbia and she moved there. Now, Columbia has open pharmacy, which means you can just walk in and get as much as you want as often as you want. And she said she started teaching those English as a second language classes. And she would go to the pharmacy and get as much as she won't whenever she wanted. And she said that she lived this way for about a year and a half. And she said she got up in the mirror one morning, got up from bed one morning and looked in the mirror. And she said, I recognized that I was going to die. I had tried everything that I could possibly try. I was more dependent than I had ever been and I was going to die, right? And I also recognized that I was desperate to not and I needed to give myself one final chance. And she said I had received Suboxone. I'd had Suboxone treatment. She said for her it was miserable and that she felt that she had been lied to by the provider because. Cause when she said she tried to take herself off, the withdrawal from Suboxone made her heroin withdrawal seem like a cakewalk.

Duncan Trussell (61:00)

Wow.

Brian Hubbard (61:00)

She said it was the most brutal opioid withdrawal she had ever experienced. She said she got online, started just looking on the Internet for opioid cure. This word I began came up. She said I read about seemed too good to be true, but I was, I was literally willing to do anything. And she said what I didn't know at the time is that ibogaine comes with a cardiac risk.

Duncan Trussell (61:21)

Right.

Brian Hubbard (61:22)

If you, if you receive more than you should, it will prolong the time between your heartbeats and in some cases will stop your heart altogether. So you can potentially go into cardiac arrest and die if it's not properly administered. She said that she found a clinic in Guatemala that was could get her in fairly quick. She didn't know that there needed to be due diligence research around safety and therefore she didn't do it. So she went to this place in Guatemala. They gave her twice the amount she should have received. She said that she went into cardiac arrest six different times and nearly died. And while she had recollection of her ibogaine experience, she couldn't remember much else. She said that she woke up in the intensive care unit of a Guatemalan hospital. And she said, when I opened my eyes, I recognized that I felt the best I had ever felt in my entire life. She said not only was my physiological opioid addiction gone, not only did I not experience any withdrawals whatsoever, but for the very first time in my life, having been repeatedly told that I was a dispute diseased individual who was going to have to live with this condition for the rest of my life, that it was inescapable and that I was forever empowered. In fact, because I had been fully and completely restored physiologically, I knew psychologically that my life was my own. For the first time, I felt as though I had agency and control and could define my own future and be in control of my destiny. I was going to have a life that would be defined by my choices rather than one and driven by my compulsions. And she said, most importantly for me, I came away with a concrete affirmation that I am a spiritual being who has a unique and special purpose to achieve with my life and given to be my creator. Now, I could not think of a greater gift we can give our fellow person than to be able to affirm the reality of our human divinity. When we combine the physiology, the psychology and spirituality of ibogaine into one beautiful botanical package, the only conclusion I can draw is that, yes, indeed, who, by whatever name we call our Maker, our Maker, has delivered for us on this earth miracles that are readily available in God's creation with which we can heal the wounds that we inflict on ourselves and each other. And with the context of what is a devastating public health epidemic within the United States of America, we have the opportunity to deliver a genuine curative, therapeutic miracle for individuals for whom everything that we currently have to offer have failed.

Duncan Trussell (64:27)

Right.

Brian Hubbard (64:27)

And I am not here and have never suggested that ibogaine is for everyone that it became stand that it becomes standard operating procedure and everybody be made to take it as a gateway to recovery as those who support, you know, in many cases, opioid maintenance treatments suggest need to be applied for that model. I'm just here to suggest that we diversify, expand and improve upon our available options by including ibogaine as a choice that individuals may exercise in consultation with their families and their own physicians as an alternative method to pursue long term recovery. And I don't know how anyone who has a proper understanding of what this can do and who is genuinely concerned about the condition of their fellow person would stand up and deny or oppose the introduction of an additional alternative to improve people's lives. That's all we're asking.

Duncan Trussell (65:23)

Well, I mean, first of all, that was beautiful.

Brian Hubbard (65:26)

Thank you.

Duncan Trussell (65:26)

And I can see that you feel, I mean, I'm a kind of divine calling here. I feel like you, you have to do this and that must be a weird feeling. And I don't know how much you can talk about that without people like, great, what do you think you are? But I don't mean it like that. I mean, I can just feel your, your passion because you've been in communities where you've seen, having personally experienced this with one individual, like, I'm pissed. I can't imagine what it's like to experience it, to know all the data that you know, to have to sit with families, no doubt, and witness the wreckage, the carnage in a place that is one of the most decimated places in the country because of this poison. So the passion is beautiful.

Brian Hubbard (66:11)

Thank you. There's no question in my mind that at the heart of trauma and addiction is profound spiritual affliction. If we are trying to address the physiological and Psychological dimensions of the human being. We're only getting to 2/3 of the problem.

Duncan Trussell (66:34)

Right.

Brian Hubbard (66:35)

We have to look at the entire human being being. And that means the human being as a spiritual creature whose individual significance should be and must be affirmed if we're going to give anyone hope of a better day than what they are living in the midst of despair. And any solution that omits the recognition of the spiritual significance of the human being is a solution that is destined to fail.

Duncan Trussell (67:01)

Absolutely. But, you know, the world we live in right now, those words are not safe words. The secularist, materialist world. The saying soul, creator. What? You can't even say, especially related medicine.

Brian Hubbard (67:16)

No, no, no.

Duncan Trussell (67:17)

We're machines. We're machines. And this is the world we're living in is people get, you know, you know, my. My wife is Catholic. She's a devout Christian. She tells the wrong person she's a Christian. They act like. She said, she's like chops, cats, heads off under the full moon or something like that. I mean, it really freaks people out these days. It's wild, man. People are real upset by the language you just used. And then to take that language and try to tie it in with an actual medical treatment, that's got to be controversial.

Brian Hubbard (67:52)

It's only controversial to individuals who look at life through a purely materialist perspective where human beings who are in control of human systems are able to assert those systems to control and subjugate other human brains. And with that, I'll. I'll come to this point. And this again is jumping a little further in the conversation than you may be ready for. But based on my observation of having participated in this discussion around, I began for what's coming up on my third year. And every day is a blessing to be able to do this. I can't believe what a wonderful opportunity it is to serve this cause. But as I said, there's no question whether we're talking about trauma and addiction or whether we are talking about the advancement of an alternative treatment modality that addresses the spiritual nature of the human being. This is a spiritual struggle. And it is a contest between human beings who wish to play God.

Duncan Trussell (68:57)

Yeah.

Brian Hubbard (68:58)

And everybody else who's not going to have it.

Duncan Trussell (69:01)

Right.

Brian Hubbard (69:01)

That's what this is, is that's the battle line. Those who want to play God versus everybody else, that's not going to have it. And that latter group is much larger than the former. I think you can take individuals, regardless of what their sectarian tradition is.

Duncan Trussell (69:19)

Yeah.

Brian Hubbard (69:19)

And come upon some very foundational recognitions of common truths. And one of those truths is we all bear the image of an eternal creator whose essence is almighty, unconditional love for each of us. And that kinship is one which obliges us to recognize, elevate and celebrate the spiritual significance of every life, not just in American society, but across this world. And if I begins, medicalization within the US Health care system can help affirm those broader realities for folks who have never experienced the first inkling of their soul's existence, then we have delivered a beautiful social change that will create a better world for all for years to come.

Duncan Trussell (70:10)

Oh, it's beautiful.

Brian Hubbard (70:11)

Yes, those are the stakes.

Duncan Trussell (70:28)

This episode of the DTFH has been brought to you by Shipsticks. Look, I've been working on like different people you see in the airport, I don't know if you guys could see that. That's the American Grubster. He's got a bumping backpack that he's going to hit you with when he goes through the aisle. He's wearing a baby shirt like Minecraft or something. He's got sweaty ham hocks. But you see a lot of people in the airport and you see the golf men, golfers as they call them, hauling around their golf bags, freaking out, checking their bags, their precious golf clubs, their million dollar golf clubs. Literally the connection to God in this world for a golfer is their golf clubs, their precious, precious golf clubs. And the stress, not to mention their shoulders chafing as they run through the airport. The, the anxiety is they sit and wonder whether, are my golf clubs going to make it? Are they going to be lost again? You've seen the way airlines throw shit around. And I'm sure there's many people working in an airline who love nothing more than take your precious golf clubs and slam them to the ground with hate. And even if it doesn't mess your clubs up, that hate gets in there and that hate will mess up your golf game, period. That has been proven in many studies at MIT and a variety of other established institutions. I'm not going to bore you with the math or the science or whatever, the whatever, but I've read that stuff and hate golf clubs absorb hate. No one knows why. That's why the lightning strikes. This brings us to today's glorious sponsor, Skip airport stress and costly airline fees with complimentary insurance, real time tracking, dedicated support and on time delivery. Just schedule your shipment, attach your label and ship sticks handles the rest. Deliver your gear directly to your destination. Ship Sticks offers white glove shipping for golf clubs and luggage. They get treated the way you need them to be treated. They don't get injected with hate. Travel worldwide without luggage. ShipStix delivers to 180 countries for a hassle free gear free journey. You can enjoy the flight and all the luxury of flying without having to worry over your clubs. Right now, Shipsticks is offering our listeners 20 off your first shipment. When you go to shipsticks.com use the code Duncan. Go to shipsticks.com use code Duncan to get 20 off your first shipment and save yourself the hassle this golf season. That's S H I P S T I C K. Make sure you use the code Duncan so they know we sent you. Thank you. Ship sticks. The the problem is, is normalization. Okay, so, so let's take the example of the for profit prison model. So somehow elected officials or people working in the state can get away with saying, listen, we're not going to make as much money if we don't incarcerate people with a spiritual disease. Even though the incarceration isn't helping anyone at all, we won't make as much money money. Now somehow people hear that and they're, well, I guess there's something there. Now imagine this. What if these very same prisons, instead of just holding people in a prison cell, were actually, let's say, extracting blood from them? Just extracting some blood every day. I don't know, a liter of blood every day. And then they were feeding that blood to a gargoyle that lived in the bottom of the prison. Now there would be people surrounding that prison with torches. You can't hold people in here for their blood to feed your evil gargoyle. Yes. So what you're saying isn't even controversial when you point out there does seem to be a very clear distinction between some hopefully smaller subsection of society that's managed to mechanize humanity and somehow ignore the very root of what makes a human human, Whether you want to call it soul interconnectedness, whatever that may be, to imagine the true healing. And anyone who's been to a birth, you know, just a run of the mill birth without a midwife, anyone who has been to a birth without a doula, just watch the way humans enter this world and you will understand exactly the point this gentleman is making, which is when a baby enters this world, it is not treated like the sacred, holy, incredible thing. The sense of the presence of the divine in the room, the strange familiarity with that feeling, the overwhelming sense of love and this being bringing much more into the world than their little body would indicate all of that is annihilated by the for profit model of the hospital. Wants to put drops in the baby's eyes, put a thermometer up the baby's butt, chop the tip of the baby's dick off, right? All the things that happened in a flurry in the midst of this mystical experience, essentially, for lack of a better word, a kind of medical black mass happens in the midst of birth.

Brian Hubbard (76:15)

That's a very unique phraseology.

Duncan Trussell (76:17)

That's what I've got three kids. And, you know, by the third, we figured it out. But the first one, you're just a babe in the woods. You don't know what's happening. When they're like, we got to spray scorpion spit in the baby's eyes. You're like, I guess so now you don't really do that, but so. And I don't know what that thing is in the world, but I think it's the. The. It's good to say it's there because people, whether it's just some kind of coalescing of greed or something, some systemic manifestation of greed, or whether it's actual demonic forces that just for shits and giggles want to like, ruin humanity, I don't know, but it's there for sure.

Brian Hubbard (76:57)

One of the. One of the foundational principles that came out of the Enlightenment, which is the intellectual movement that produced America's founding Fathers, was the elevation of empiricism. The way in which the scientific method was designed to distill out objectively observable realities from which truth could be derived. Empiricism has created a tremendous amount of forward evolution for the human species. Since the 17th century. It's been a wonderful thing. Sure, empiricism has some blind spots, and one of those blind spots is the reduction of. Of the human being to the merely material.

Duncan Trussell (77:47)

Right.

Brian Hubbard (77:48)

Empiricism opens up the doorway to reductionism. And when you take a reductionist approach to the human being, you open up a Pandora's box of potential horror that can be afflicted through systems that operate within the zone of what C.S. lewis called the banality of evil. Evil is not promulgated by the big scary monster that is obvious and that we can all communally recognize as horrific. Evil operates in the most sanitary, respectable, quiet and mechanical ways so as to not draw suspicious eyes or ears to its silent activity.

Duncan Trussell (78:35)

Goosebumps. That is so perfect.

Brian Hubbard (78:39)

Thank you. There's no rose, but I didn't mean to rehearse that one. That was just me talking to you.

Duncan Trussell (78:44)

The banality of evil. You look in the movies that, you know, the vampire robes, nice cape, Castle. No, no, no, that's not what it looks like at all. Oh, it's just like a background hug.

Brian Hubbard (78:57)

Looks like this.

Duncan Trussell (78:58)

Yeah, you gotta wear the costume.

Brian Hubbard (79:00)

Gotta. Got that nice clean suit and press tie and.

Duncan Trussell (79:04)

Yeah, we got to wrap it up. I know you got a heart out, but I have two quick questions. Number one, I'm listening to as someone who might be listening right now and is either in the midst of addiction themselves, has a family member, loved one in the midst of addiction, doesn't have time for ibogaine to become something that is prescribed. What should they do? And number two, people like me who are now ready to run into the ocean for you, how do we participate in helping your cause?

Brian Hubbard (79:38)

So on the first question, I have to give a little contextual disclaimer. When I started down this road, at some point I determined that if I were going to be credible and if I were going to have the necessary influence within this debate, that I needed to be willing to practice what I preached. And that meant taking the medicine to understand it. So, just so that I could say in the face of criticisms and scare tactics and all the attacks that I had seen be thrown at it in Kentucky. So I'm going to do this so that I can understand exactly what it is, what it does, take the risk and come out on the other side so that I could speak to it. So In November of 2023, my wife and I both traveled to a place called Ambio, which is just south of Tiamat, where a lot of US Special Forces veterans have gone. And we received ibogaine followed by 5 Meo DMT. There is another clinic that operates in Cancun called Beyond B E O E Andy and they have recently announced a program called Beyond Service that provides essentially free ibogaine treatment for us veterans who have come back with the experiences of war trauma as well as traumatic brain injury. Both Ambio and Beyond have been fairly prominent in terms of their provision of ibogaine treatment for a few years now. So in December of last year, my wife and I traveled to beyond and received ibogaine there so that we could understand how each of those clinics provide their treatment.

C (81:27)

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Brian Hubbard (81:59)

You asked me a question that triggered.

Duncan Trussell (82:00)

This explanation which is where like people who are like where do they go? Yeah.

Brian Hubbard (82:06)

So my wife and I have had personal experiences with Ambio south of Tiamata and we have had a personal experience with beyond, which is in Cancun. Both of those providers adhere to top notch safety protocols. They have impeccable safety records. And if an individual is curious as to where they can go now to try to seek treatment, I would recommend that they check out Beyond B E O N D or Ambio A M B I O and make a determination based on, you know, what schedule, availability and resources are. If they are able to make the journey to those clinics. A person should never ever, ever look to order online or to self acquire and to self administer. This is a serious medication that comes with serious risks and it must be administered in a clinical.

Duncan Trussell (82:59)

Absolutely. Oh my God. I have a horror story that I can't even even tell about someone who went the path. You just talked and it's. Don't. I mean I can't tell the story. It's. But it is one of the most horrifying permanent damage. I'll just leave it at that. So continue please.

Brian Hubbard (83:21)

Your second question, how to support. I think the very first, the very first step in any process of public debate is the introduction of subject matter and the delivery of property, proper education around that subject, whether it's you or those in your audience, whatever informational resources that they can find that are credible. And I would mention the journal Nature medicine and it's January 4, 2020, January 5, 2024 article on ibogaine. The journal Nature Medicine is one of the top three medical research journals in the world. They published the dramatic results of ibogaine treatment for U.S. special Forces veterans in that edition. Informational resources that are based in empirical science. The Kentucky hearings that we had are readily available. There were three. One was in July, the other was in September of 23. The Kentucky opioid Abatement Advisory Commission public hearing in September of 2023 was one of the most powerful public proceedings that I had ever had the opportunity to witness. And it was 24 individuals who had received, provided or had sent loved ones for ibogaine treatment. You can go view those, disseminate that information right now. The Most critical strategic beachhead is the state of Texas where we are pursuing what's called the Texas Ibogaine Initiative. Your listeners can go on to Google and type in Texas Ibogaine and there will be a webpage that comes up that is attached to the Reed Foundation. I currently serve as the executive director of what's called the American Ibogaine Initiative for the Reed Foundation. The very first objective is to create a public private partnership within the state of Texas that will develop ibogaine as an FDA approved medication. That campaign is in full force right now. I would encourage your viewers and listeners to go to the Texas Ibogaine Initiative initiatives website, sign up for newsletters and disseminate through their social media platforms and any other circles of influence that they can find what is happening here in Texas and start calling with respect and with joyful encouragement, not rage or resentment. Joyful encouragement, your elected representatives here in the state of Texas and ask that this legislation be supported. The more people that are organically involved in the democratic process, the better our prospects are for success. And as events around the Texas Ibogaine Initiative are announced through social media platforms that are connected to it, I would just encourage your audience and viewership to engage those, elevate those and lift them up for public consumption and understanding.

Duncan Trussell (86:09)

Beautiful. You're the best. Thank you so much. I feel so inspired. Really. Thank you so much.

Brian Hubbard (86:15)

It's been a pleasure.

Duncan Trussell (86:16)

I.

Brian Hubbard (86:16)

Listen, I'm. I am modest, Clay, but I believe in some spectacular things, particularly the preciousness of my brothers and sisters in this life. And if I can be an effective servant of that preciousness, it's my honor to do so.

Duncan Trussell (86:32)

Thank you.

Brian Hubbard (86:33)

Thank you.

Duncan Trussell (86:34)

All those links will be in the comments section or if you're listening to this, in the comments section at Douglass Willcom. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

Brian Hubbard (86:42)

My pleasure.

Duncan Trussell (86:44)

That was Brian Hubard, everybody. Go to the Texas Ibogaine Initiative. All the links mentioned are going to be in the comment section of the YouTube clip or in the comment section at Doug tressel.com for my dearest audio listeners, if you're sick of commercials on this show or in general, I get it. Subscribe and my Patreon or on the YouTube. Either way, you're going to get commercial free episodes of the dtfh, either audio or video. I'm trying to figure out a way to get video on Patreon. We're not there yet. I love you. I'll see you next week. Until then, Hare Krishna.

C (87:22)

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