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- [00:00]
Duncan Trussell
Hello, friends. I'm so excited for you to watch today's episode or listen to it. Today's guest, Darrell Cooper, has the greatest podcast out there. Martyr Made. It's so good. And he happened to be in Austin and he stopped by the studio. Holy shit, what a conversation. But before we jump into it real quick, come celebrate Bicycle Day with yours truly. I'm gonna be at Meow Wolf on April 19th. We're taking over Meow Wolf in Denver. Check out what's this website. You are the portal dot com. Come. It's going to be so fun. I'm not doing stand up. I've got a very special treat for you. I'm not going to give any of it away. You can find everything out about this event by going to. You are the portal.com. i'm not the only person who's going to be there. LP Globby will be there and Reggie Watts. It's going to be awesome. So please come also see me April 24th at the Capitol Hill Comedy Bar in Seattle. Come out, see some live comedy. And now, everybody get ready. You're about to get your socks knocked off. I stumbled upon the Martyr Maid podcast some months ago. As it turns out, by some divine intercession, Darrell Cooper, the host, actually has listened to my podcast, is familiar with me, and happens to be friends with Danieli Bellelli. Anyway, the long and short of it is we've become friends and he was kind enough to come and hang out with me and wow, this is an awesome episode. If you're looking for a good historical podcast with incredible stories, that is riveting, just check out Martyr Maid. If you want to really freak yourself out, look at his Epstein series. It's incredible. He's got an incredible series on Jonestown and many, many more. It's the Martyr Maid podcast. But now, everybody, welcome to the dtfh. Darrell Cooper. Darrell, welcome to the dtfh.
- [02:09]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah, it's really cool to be here, man. I've been a fan for so long, it's weird to be here.
- [02:14]
Duncan Trussell
When you told me that, it blew my mind because every once in a while you get lucky. The algorithm spins something up for you. I don't even know how I stumbled upon your podcast. I'd heard about it and what's really funny is I thought my brother in law told me about it. And then after I listened to a few episodes of your podcast, I was like, dude, thanks for recommending that podcast. And he's like, I didn't recommend it. So I have no idea who recommended but somehow, just God was with me and I landed on your podcast, and it has kept me more riveted than anything in as long as I can remember, man. So I am just so excited to get a chance to hang out with you and talk Martyrmade podcast. Check it out. You've already heard me ramble about it, so I want to dive right in. And I haven't listened to every episode of your podcast. I will eventually, but I've gathered something about you from it and in conversations we've had at dinner. So I thought we could start this podcast off and hopefully most of you are familiar with Darrell's podcast, but we'll get into it. Anyway, this is my favorite Mark Twain quote. But who prays for Satan? Who in 18 centuries has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most, Our one fellow and brother who most needed a friend, yet had not a single one, the one sinner among us all who had the highest and clearest right to every Christian's daily and nightly prayers for the plain and unassailable reason that his was the first and greatest need, he being among sinners, the supremest Mark Twain. And that's what I get from many episodes of your podcast, and this is why you are a controversial figure, is because you look into the past, you look into history, and you tell these stories where people we have just taken for granted as bad guys deserving of the horrors that they encountered because of what they did, where suddenly you humanize them, suddenly you force an unexpected compassion out of us for things you're not supposed to feel compassion for. And my first question is, when did you become a servant of the Dark Lord?
- [04:38]
Darrell Cooper
I think probably it goes back, you know, to when I was a kid. Honestly. I grew up in, like, we were poor growing up. I grew up in the ghettos of west coast big cities, for the most part, moving around all the time. I went to 35 different public schools.
- [04:51]
Duncan Trussell
Wow.
- [04:52]
Darrell Cooper
Over 12 years. Moving every few months.
- [04:54]
Duncan Trussell
Military family.
- [04:55]
Darrell Cooper
Not just single mom. And we were living where we could, you know.
- [04:57]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [04:58]
Darrell Cooper
From time to time. And we get farmed out to relatives. Like if things got a little rough at home, it'd. Various points. And so growing up in that environment, you know, I knew a lot of people. Very. Some of them very close to me. Friends, even. Even relatives. Great people. They were no less moral than I was. No. No stupider than I. Just across the board, they're great people.
- [05:24]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [05:26]
Darrell Cooper
And a good number of them, they didn't. They didn't. I Didn't make it out like I made it out of that situation. A lot of them ended up in the gutter, you know.
- [05:33]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [05:33]
Darrell Cooper
Or some were worse. And I really, like, very early on, sort of recognized that. That it was really largely a matter of luck that I didn't end up like them and they didn't end up. You know, the fact that I had a wrestling coach who happened to take an interest at me at this critical juncture where I really could have gone one or two directions or another situation where I get into a street fight and really get carried away and the cops show up and they just let me go and they might not have. My skin tone was a little darker, or if he had gotten up on the wrong side of the bed that morning or whatever. And then my life goes off in a totally different direction.
- [06:13]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [06:15]
Darrell Cooper
So, you know, when I was young, in my early 20s in the military, I was still getting in fights with, like, Tijuana police, you know, and, like, having to pay them off so they didn't keep us in a Mexican jail. And so I think about all those kind of things where it was just purely a matter of luck that my life wasn't completely derailed.
- [06:32]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [06:33]
Darrell Cooper
And then who knows how I respond to that. Maybe I, you know, I dose myself or I self just. There's a. You know, all the things that people do to deal with, like their life not going the way that they hoped or expected. And so just kind of recognizing that there but for the grace of God. Go on.
- [06:49]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [06:51]
Darrell Cooper
It really instilled in me it's still natural to me to judge everybody else. Yeah, like, that's natural to all of us. But it really instilled in me, like, a commitment to try not to judge people too harshly who are confronted with circumstances that I know nothing about that I couldn't imagine being in having to make choices I couldn't imagine having to make. And. And really just trying to understand that, like, these are, you know, these are real people, right, who were put in extraordinary situations and, you know, humans are capable of all. I mean, we can be the Aztecs, we can be, you know, Thomas Aquinas, whatever. Like, we have a wide range of outcomes that humans can. Can arrive at if we are left to our own devices. And so there's just, I guess, like, I just. I try to be humble when I approach other people, including, and maybe especially I love the way he frames that quote because, like, I would. I would say, I think that, you know, I. I posted on Twitter today that, that. That people don't like it, or they get annoyed when you don't like what they like, but they really get angry if you don't hate what they hate.
- [08:00]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [08:01]
Darrell Cooper
And you're supposed to hate Satan, obviously. It's the epitome of evil, all these kind of things. But I think that it's probably the, the, like, the highest achievement of like a Christian's development. Be able to recognize and sincerely pray for Satan.
- [08:16]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [08:16]
Darrell Cooper
You know what I mean?
- [08:17]
Duncan Trussell
Absolutely.
- [08:17]
Darrell Cooper
I mean, what if. Not that, what was, what was Jesus doing as he was carrying his cross and saying, forgive them. They know not what they do?
- [08:25]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah. And Thomas Wolf, look homeward, angel. You. Only later do you realize what angel he's talking to? But yeah, absolutely. Like that, that if. If there isn't that level of compassion in a person, then there really is no hope for the world, for redemption in the world. Right. Like, if we can't look beyond a person's. Whatever it may be, if there's some limit to us, to our ability to see through, you know, I just got an unexpected cavity and I was in the. I can't express that level of pain and I can't. The love I feel for my children is like a billion sons. But when the waves of pain were hitting, they could say anything to me, and it was just anger, annoyance. And so when you look at a person who's being an asshole, whether just a run of the mill asshole or global level asshole, I think it's a pretty safe bet they don't feel that good. They're probably in a lot of pain, you know, and if we, if we can't find a way to see that, to understand underneath all that, it's a baby. It's a cute baby. You ever seen baby pictures of Hitler? He was a cutie. And if you were pushing Hitler through the airport in his stroller, everybody, like, look at that little darling, little love, right? And that's underneath it all, under the meth, under the fucking stupid mustache. That's still there, I think. I think now this is the primary thing I wanted to talk to you about. So what? It's fucking Hitler. So what? It's Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't fucking care if Jeffrey Dahmer has some cute pictures of himself as a baby at the goddamn mall. Why should I spend any time thinking in any way that redeems that person when they've caused so much suffering?
- [10:45]
Darrell Cooper
You're redeeming yourself when you do that. That's really what it comes down to too, is it's not about whether the other person deserves your compassion or not.
- [10:54]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [10:55]
Darrell Cooper
It's just better for you to be compassionate. And I think that when you stretch your. You stretch yourself to try to understand people as human beings who at first glance are incomprehensible to you, you're doing a lot of. A lot of good for yourself, you know, and, and I don't mean that in necessarily in a selfish way. Other is an aspect of that to it, but that's the way that you redeem the world. You start with yourself and work outward. The idea that, you know, it's, it's. I think it's a mark of excessive pride to think that it's somehow our responsibility to come up with how we're going to fix society, fix the world and like something we're going to do. Like, you know who George Price is?
- [11:37]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [11:38]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah. So I love George Price's story. It's such a. I talked about him in the, in the episode I did about Dostoevsky and, and Nietzsche is. He's this guy, you know, scientist, worked on the Manhattan Project. Brilliant guy. You know, if you're like a. A mathematician or physicist back in the 40s, working on the Manhattan Project is like you're at the top of the game, right, with the best people, the smartest, most amazing people. And so the war ends and he goes and he works at one of the big giant corps, corporations at a desk doing a sort of job. And it's not very fulfilling. It doesn't like, really reach the, you know, allow him to express his ambitions the way that, the way that he would, especially coming down off the high of working on the Manhattan Project. And so he, he ends up getting married, has two daughters, and eventually has this sort of life crisis where he decides to divorce his wife, leave his two daughters behind in America, and he goes off to England to. He wants to work at I think the. The Galton center at the London School of Economics or something like that. And so he goes over there and he does really important work on evolutionary biology and like, specific, specifically on altruism and how he was one of the fathers of the idea of like, collective altruism, the idea that our genes can tell us to be kind or even sacrificial to benefit others who, who broadly share our genes. But then what he did was he had like, he had a real kind of spiritual crisis because. And this is really interesting because this is a guy who had left his kids behind and abandoned them, basically. And he's. He becomes obsessed with how it is that people can act selflessly toward others who, you know, who share their genes. So obviously there's like, something going on there. And he becomes really like, he convinces himself like, this was a man who. And I admire this even when it goes in bad directions and even when it leads to really ugly outcomes. People who become convinced of something and they're like, okay, I have to change my whole life because if this is true, I'm not going to know this is true and just sort of keep going. No, I'm going to. This is going to affect the way I live my life and approach the world. And he was one of those guys, total commitment. And so he kind of devoted himself to proving, you know, because he had convinced himself that his. Any, you know, when he sent a birthday present to his daughter or what, that that was just the genes. It was just the genes acting. And it wasn't like actually an act of kindness. That's kind of what we call it. But it really was just him. And he. He couldn't accept it, but he believed it. He's like, I've mathematically proven this. So I'm. And I'm a rational scientist, you know, so I'm not going to deny I do believe it, but I can't accept it. And so I'm going to prove in my own life that. Or disprove this in my own life. And so he ends up. He starts off by going down and just giving his paycheck away to, like, the drunks and homeless people under the bridges in London, right? Just giving everything away. He gets to the point where it's the middle of winter, he's giving his shoes away, he's giving his jacket away. He opens up his apartment, and people can just come and go. Like, he has no possessions. Everything is theirs. And his. It's all just. Just completely pouring himself out, emptying himself completely, you know, for these other people. We live like that long enough, obviously it's going to take its toll on you, too. And he ends up on the street mentally unwell. And, you know, in all this. And there comes a point where all the people. Because you got to imagine, like, if this is happening, like, on one level, you hear that and you're like, man, this is almost like a saint, right? This is almost like a person. Like, these are the people you read about in the ancient text. But if that was your brother, you'd be like, what has happened to my brother?
- [15:32]
Duncan Trussell
Right?
- [15:34]
Darrell Cooper
You would you grieve over him?
- [15:35]
Duncan Trussell
Sure.
- [15:36]
Darrell Cooper
You know, and so that's what the people around him, the people who knew him and admired him were doing, they were, they were, were grieving and you know, over, over what had happened to this, to this person who's living on the street and he's mentally unwell and can't take care of himself. And so they finally are able to sort of get through to him for a second and you know, he ends up going, getting a job as like a janitor at a bank and he gets an apartment again. He's kind of got it together. But then one day, and this too was like not an act of. Well, I would say it was an act of desperation, but it wasn't something that was just born out of pure impulsive, depression driven impulse or something. It was part of his intellectual journey. He decided to do the ultimate thing to prove that people can't, they don't have to act in accordance with their genes, demands. And he stood in front of his bathroom mirror and had a little set of like nail scissors and he poked it into his neck and he just snipped his carotid artery as he looked himself in the, in the eye in the mirror and he died. And.
- [16:36]
Duncan Trussell
Fuck.
- [16:37]
Darrell Cooper
And at his.
- [16:38]
Duncan Trussell
That's the most fucked up thing I've ever heard, man.
- [16:41]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah. And so, so, okay, so that's where it lead, that's where that led. And we hear it and we're like, oh, that's the worst thing I've ever heard you say. Well, what would have been the right thing for him to do?
- [16:52]
Duncan Trussell
Knife. Knife? Are you fucking kidding me? Nail clippers?
- [16:56]
Darrell Cooper
Well, I think for his purposes it was much more like you could put it in there and look at yourself and be like, let's do this.
- [17:02]
Duncan Trussell
I can do it with a knife.
- [17:03]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah, I suppose.
- [17:03]
Duncan Trussell
See, if one of his, if he talked to one of these so called friends, they would have been like, dud, dude, knife. Nail clippers. Like, have you tried clipping a nail?
- [17:12]
Darrell Cooper
Oh, no, it was like some nail scissors of some kind, as far as I know.
- [17:14]
Duncan Trussell
Okay, fine, nail scissors. I'm picturing like toenail clippers.
- [17:20]
Darrell Cooper
It's like, damn it, I didn't get it. Oh, hey, can you come hold the flashlight for me? But like, you know, you see it and that's such a tragic, terrible story, you know, that it ended up where it did. Even though, and I say this guardedly maybe, but even to the very end in his final act, there's a part of me that, that admires him, you know, to a degree. Even though it was like, I think by that point, coming out of just a lot of mental unwellness and still the. The level of commitment there, I just feel like, deserves my attention at least, you know.
- [17:53]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [17:54]
Darrell Cooper
And, you know, if you say, where did this. Where did this. This story go wrong? Because, like, you know, he's a scientist who thinks that he's proven that his love for his daughters is not real. It's, you know, just a matter of genetic, you know, demand. And he decides to go out. He just can't accept this. He's proven it, but he won't accept it. And you say, okay, this is. This is a admirable person. Like, I really admire that. But when you get to that juncture to decide that it's somehow your job to prove that mankind is, you know, capable of selfless acts and all these kind of things, it's like, dude, like, no, just go to the store and get your daughter her birthday present and bring it to her and enjoy that. Like, that's the answer. But again, this is a guy who worked on the Manhattan Project as his first job out of college and then was working for IBM or whoever the hell, like, 1950s super corporation. And. And, you know, it just wasn't ambitious enough for him. You had to be.
- [18:55]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [18:55]
Darrell Cooper
Had to be bigger. Had to be something. He had to. He had to, like, really accomplish, like, on a. On a vast scale. And, you know, but the answer, I think, is that, like, that's. That's the sin of pride, you know, that destroyed him. Even though. Even though I think he. He. There's a lot admirable there. I mean, I. You probably, if you've listened to the Jim Jones series. I did, you probably picked up on this. Like, I didn't start out. I actually started that series out. Well, I didn't. I didn't expect to end up feeling the way I did about the People's Temple, as I did by the end. And similarly to the George Price story, ended in obviously just insanity and disaster.
- [19:35]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [19:36]
Darrell Cooper
But I couldn't help but develop a certain amount of affection for a lot of these people and the organization itself, to a degree, like, just reading through the. The things they were confronted with and the ways they responded to, like, very unique times. You know, the 60s were in the 70s too. If you were, you know, sort of into radical politics and those things was crazy, crazy, crazy time. And I ended up, you know, with a great deal of admiration there too. But again, like, it's that sin of pride that, you know, that causes people to think that they want to do good in the world. But actually it's my job to like, to fix the world, to do all.
- [20:12]
Duncan Trussell
The work, all of it, baby. That's where it gets bad. Yeah, I see what you're saying. It's like, you know, St. Teresa is Catholic saint. There's Avila, there's a lot of St. Teresa. This is a different St. Teresa, probably less known, but she has this concept of the little way, which is you don't need to be. It doesn't matter what good act you do. You don't have to do. You don't have to. Like, it's not your job alone to save the world. In fact, if everyone in the world just shifted a little bit, instead of going under the bridge and giving other things away and doing this sort of sounds like bipolar, honestly, but doing this sort of like where it's me, I'm the hero. Forget that the hero is the collective engaged in these tiny little acts. This will create a huge social change versus this thing, which if we are going to play around with the idea of an actual personification of evil that according to Mark Twain, we should be praying to or for. Oh, wait, no, I. Oops. Oops that this thing is a master at grabbing good things and then getting inside the good thing to turn them into evil. Not stopping people from doing good things, that's pretty easy to do. Just kill them. Didn't work with Jesus. Whoops. Now there's fucking Christianity everywhere. I fucked up. It's like when you see someone smash the spider egg and the spiders go everywhere. Except they're good spiders. But so what do we do? We get into the thing. Get into the thing. And so you see this. This episode of the DTFH has been supported by my friends at Quints. And let me tell you, when they reached out expressing interest in supporting this podcast beloved by millions of people, my wife said you must allow them to sponsor the podcast because she pre loved Quints. There is no higher endorsement than the Erin Trussell endorsement. She has a very specific set of things she likes. And you're gonna love Quince. It's actually very nice. You feel like you're wearing luxury items like lightweight shirts and shorts from $30 parts for any occasion and comfortable lounge sets. They even have premium luggage options, durable duffel bags to carry it all. The best part, all Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe Ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that. And if you don't love that, you need to take a long look in the mirror and ask yourself why you don't love that. Are you freaking kidding me? You want to wear clothes and feel guilty about it? Wake up. Wake up with Quints. For your next trip, treat yourself to the lux upgrades you deserve from quint. Go to quints.com dunkin for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com dunkin to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com Duncan thank you, Quince. Where compassion gets hijacked.
- [24:34]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah.
- [24:35]
Duncan Trussell
Anybody looks at the world like, oh my God, I've got to do something about this. And that thing has to be, I'm gonna do it all. And then boom.
- [24:43]
Darrell Cooper
So much of the evil that takes place in the world is really a result of a hijacking of our virtues. You know, soldiers in, you know, the My Lai hamlet in Vietnam who were just massacring civilians are taking revenge because they love their friends that they've watched die from landmines over the last few months. And.
- [25:03]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [25:04]
Darrell Cooper
That's not an excuse. It's just, you know, it shows how anything can be corrupted. And that's mostly how the devil works, is he takes. Most people cannot be convinced to do something they believe is evil. You know, they might. If it's expedient enough or gets them out of enough trouble or something, they might. They might just do it and suck up the, you know, the future. Consequences.
- [25:22]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [25:22]
Darrell Cooper
But for the most part, people have to tell themselves stories in order to. To make it work for them.
- [25:28]
Duncan Trussell
That's right.
- [25:28]
Darrell Cooper
And you know. You know, another example of like, kind of similar to George Price, I talk about him in the same episode is, you know who Mitchell Heisman is?
- [25:37]
Duncan Trussell
No.
- [25:38]
Darrell Cooper
He was this kid guy. He's wasn't. He's a young guy. Young, young man, but like 20s or 30s. And he decided, you know, he, he came to. He's another one of these, like, George Price types in the sense. Very smart. And he came to the conclusion after reading Nietzsche and all the usual stuff that, you know, he was a nihilist and that all, all the things that we think have meaning don't actually have meaning and et cetera, et cetera. And so he decides that he's going to commit suicide. Not just because he's. Not that he's depressed because everything has no meaning, but just to prove that. No, I really believe this. And things really have no meaning, right?
- [26:15]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [26:16]
Darrell Cooper
And so he decides first he's going to spend as much time as it takes. It ends up being five full years that he's writing a manifesto, like a book. Right. And you can find this online. Look up Mitchell Heisman suicide note. I've read the whole thing for the simple reason that I just feel like somebody who showed this level of commitment deserves to be read, you know, and so, and it's, and it's interesting. He's a very smart guy. And after five years, he finishes it. He had, he was not like his, his mother, his girlfriend that he had the whole time, great relationships, no signs of mental illness or depression or anything like that.
- [26:52]
Duncan Trussell
Wait, hold on. No signs of mental. It's like, hey, what are you writing over there? Yeah, well, he's working on suicide note.
- [26:57]
Darrell Cooper
He's working on a book, you know.
- [26:58]
Duncan Trussell
Okay, okay.
- [27:00]
Darrell Cooper
And. And after five years, he finishes it. And when he finishes it, he goes and puts on an all white suit and goes to the chapel in the middle of the Harvard campus, stands on the steps in the middle of the day and blows his brains out. Right. And you, when you, when you read through his manifesto, it's a lot of stuff in there about history and just all these, you know, philosophy, all those kind of things. But then when you kind of get to the end, especially like in the last few chapters of it and everything, what you realize is this guy's actually just depressed.
- [27:32]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [27:33]
Darrell Cooper
Like, that's what this is. And all of this is like an elaborate justification for his depression and the desperate measure he's about to take to, to, to get out from under it, you know, and it's that again, it's that. It's that sin of pride that like, okay, even if you do believe that, like the idea that it's somehow your responsibility to make a statement to, to history that this is the, that this is the truth, you know, and it's, it just, it ends up very sad because again, like you said, I mean, and he was an evil person, obviously, like, if you talk about baby Hitler or something, but everybody was just a little kid man, with their whole life ahead of them at one point is. And like, I think about, like, like Uday Hussein, right? Saddam's son, who was just, you know, who. Maybe there's some propaganda in here, but there's enough that we know is not prop. He was a unbelievably sadistic, violent, evil person. Right? The type of person who would go to a wedding that was happening and threaten to shoot the husband, the groom if he didn't let him take his wife. Like in the. Just an evil man, sadistic person. And I think about somebody like that, somebody that is just, you know, if he moved in next door to me, I'd move to another state.
- [28:47]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [28:48]
Darrell Cooper
You know, and you think about the fact that that was a three year old boy who didn't even know yet that he was Saddam Hussein's son.
- [28:55]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [28:56]
Darrell Cooper
He didn't know that when he was six years old, his dad was going to be bringing him to watch torture sessions because he was going to need to harden himself for that life like later on. And, and it's not as if like before he was born, he was like in the waiting room, you know, his little spirit, like in the waiting room and they're like, who wants to be Saddam Hussein's son? And he raised his hands. That I do.
- [29:15]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [29:15]
Darrell Cooper
That's the world he got thrust into.
- [29:17]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [29:17]
Darrell Cooper
You know, he was plucked out and thrust into it. And the way life works, I mean, we all know this, right? Is how like the idea that like, like, you know, by the time we sort of wake up and sort of look around and be like, oh, I need to make decisions and I actually need to like, you know, have a direction, a goal, my life and just sort of have values that my life should reflect and do. By the time like we have those thoughts at all, for the most part, there's already just so much momentum behind our life, just our personal life momentum that's built into us through the culture and our peers and you just everything that, that we can make, like minor deviations. Most of the time, you know, to, to our course, it's really hard to. Because you're just, you're thrust into life and you're already all in the middle of it and everything' already happening and you just have to sort of. It's like if you wake up, if you, if you wake up and you're in the middle of a battle and it's like, oh, like I, where's my. I guess where's my gun? Like, I have to deal with this. And you're not even thinking, like, wait, why are we fighting? Like, should we really. Should there be war?
- [30:23]
Duncan Trussell
Like, I do think that's a great way to put it. It's sleepwalking. It's like when I looked back at some of the insane I've done and I think about like where my mind was. It's like I was. Most of the time you're just bumbling Through a kind of dreamlike state. You haven't even gotten to the point of thinking about reactivity or why am I doing this? Or everything makes sense because you're using these past patterns that were taught to you about. This is why you see these emergent personalities that seem to be identical. When you look at Twitter bios, almost like even though it's different people, they have the same spirit living in them. And the spirit says things like, I'm your best friend, but your worst enemy. I love dogs. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like. But it's a repeating echo of a type of a Persona, which is, if you hit me, I'm going to hit back twice as hard. And this repeats. So many people will say that and think when they say it, this is who I am. They don't realize, yeah, it might be who you are, but you are also apparently exactly the same person. All over the planet. There's a lot of yous out there. And you guys hit back twice as hard when you get hit. Which, by the way, is a recipe for the apocalypse. If you want to fuck up a world, create. If we make a simulated reality and place within it beings that are prone to violence and then limit their resources. And then say, the one rule of engagement is if someone punches you, punch back twice as hard. It's going to be a never ending, eternal bloodbath and escalating bloodbath. And this is what I feel like we're in.
- [32:06]
Darrell Cooper
And we, and we all agree that it's not good to punch people, but sometimes you gotta. The threat of you punching back twice as hard is the only thing that's going to keep them from punching you. So actually it's like, you know, it's actually a peaceful, like, id. That's how we.
- [32:20]
Duncan Trussell
So drop the nuke. We got to drop the fucking nuke. Or. But again, I, you know, I get some people and I will take this critique because I think it's a good one when I say, and we've talked about this at dinner, but something you and I have in common I think is we are very against randomly blowing up babies and you just shouldn't drop bombs on children. It's pretty.
- [32:53]
Darrell Cooper
Okay, maybe I've got some ambivalence on the question, but yeah, I guess maybe, you know, 60, 40.
- [33:00]
Duncan Trussell
Okay, you've changed a little. But so. And essentially this is like, I can't remember, there's a Tolstoy book where he's basically saying, you can't be a pro war Christian, like, you just can't do it. The two don't. You can't go to war if you're a Christian. You can't kill anyone if you're a Christian. Nonviolence. Then I read that stupid letter Gandhi wrote to Hitler, you know, and you're like, oh, yeah, did you feel good when he mailed it to Hitler? He's like, I'm fucking meth getting a goddamn letter from Gandhi, laughing his ass off. Hey, guys, Gandhi says we should just stop the war, but it's sweet, I guess, but that's. When you look at that, even though there's a sweet thing behind it. And I don't think Gandhi was, quote, virtue signaling, as people say. I think he really, like, was trying to do everything within the non violent paradigm to stop horror from happening. The critique of the stance against all forms of violence, specifically like, war is okay, so what do we do? Just sit back and let Hitler take over the world? Is that your fucking plan? What do we do? It's kind of like, I'm the worst kind of meat eater, man. I'm a guilty fucking meat eater. I'm like the worst kind of serial killer. I'm going to cry while I strangle you. You know what I mean? I'm still gonna strangle you. My dick's hard, but you're gonna feel my hot wet tears land on your head while I choke the life out of you. Now, in other words, there's this point of view which is like, we live in a system where for there to be stability, there must be violence. So your anti war bullshit is actually not anti war. It's pro tyranny. You're just saying, okay, let's just sit back on our ass and hope our nice, happy Christian smiles are gonna keep the boots out of our face. You dumb. I'm gonna kill you. And then they, I don't, they don't say that like that, but you know what I mean.
- [35:03]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah. Excuse me first, like, before I respond to that, like, I want to respond to the first part because when you say you're a guilty meat eater, like, I remember when I was a kid, like me and my cousins and my, my buddies who, you know, they lived kind of out of town a little bit, and we would get our BB guns, pellet guns, whatever, and we just go walk on a dusty trail. And dude, it was just a holocaust. Like, everywhere we went. I mean, it was. If it moved and it had feathers or fur, it was gone. Period. Like, it just didn't matter. We wouldn't shoot a dog or a cat. We weren't evil kids like that. But anything else, like, it was done. Like, it just didn't matter. And we felt nothing about it. Right. We did this for years when I was. Even when I was, like, a young teenager. And a few years back, we had a. You know, we got a bunch of chickens, like a little farm, and there was just a flock of crows that would always hang out around our chicken and just drive our chickens completely insane and harass them and, you know, really making them, like, uncomfortable in ways that were affecting them. And so I was like. So I took my pellet gun out and I shot a crow.
- [36:08]
Duncan Trussell
Oh, God damn it now.
- [36:09]
Darrell Cooper
And I was really surprised at the time. It doesn't surprise me now. Like, looking back on everything that's happened since then, everything that, like, I felt extremely guilty.
- [36:18]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [36:19]
Darrell Cooper
And when I went over there and picked it up and, you know, got rid of it, like, I still feel guilty by, like, right now, as I'm describing it to you, I feel guilty about it. And so there is a part of me that is willing to admit that part of this is just. It's maybe sentimentality on my part. It's just where. It's just where I'm at personally on this. You know, like, if I, like, I just. I find. I find that I just don't have the stomach for. I. I watch this, you know, there's all this crazy war footage now from Ukraine and stuff that we've never had from any of these wars.
- [36:51]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [36:51]
Darrell Cooper
You have all these sources of video.
- [36:53]
Duncan Trussell
It's like. It's bordering on sport. It's bordering on the super bowl at this. Totally.
- [36:57]
Darrell Cooper
Totally. And there was this one where it was the first person from a. A drone, a suicide drone. And there was a truck. I don't know if it was a Russian or Ukrainian truck. I can't remember. I didn't know at the time. But there's guys in that truck. And the suicide drone comes in, bump, bump. Comes around to the side, bump, and it just won't blow up. And the guys are trying to get their seatbelts off and whatever else. And the video ends. And the only thing I felt afterwards was, like, a sense of relief. Those guys were all right. I have no idea who they are, what side they're on, what they've done or anything like that. That's just sort of. That's just sort of where I've come to at this point in my life, you know? And so. So I can admit, like, on some level, the people who say that you're just overly sentimental, you're letting your emotion, you know, cloud. That's all. I'm not going to completely shut those people down. But I do think that, like, when we talk about faith, you know, that faith. People think of faith as believing things even though, you know that they might not be true, but faith is doing things even though, you know they might be pointless. And so, you know, when he says, love your enemy.
- [38:05]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [38:05]
Darrell Cooper
Does that. Does that mean, like, that your enemy's going to win and all the things you care about and value are going to get destroyed? Maybe, but it's an act of faith to say that that's not how it's going to work. And, you know, and maybe I won't be around us because think about it, right? Like, it wasn't a bunch of preachers who spread Christianity from Jerusalem out into the Roman Empire and everywhere else. It was martyrs that did it. It was the example of martyrs, right? And, like, that was really the thing that people rallied behind. It wasn't theology or any of that kind of stuff. It was the example of martyrs. And you say, well, why is that? Because Christianity has a unique understanding of what a martyr is, right? You listen to, like, rhetoric that comes out of Gaza and stuff. It's like every single person with an AK who's shooting at an Israeli tank and gets blown up as a martyr, right? That's not what a martyr is in Christianity. You're not dying for a cause and becoming a martyr in Christianity. What you're doing is, you know, you. You. If you go back to the, like the crucifixion, which is the, you know, obviously the central story and, yeah, the Christian myth, the, you know, the. The most interesting thing about that story to me is how you had these guys, these 12 guys, and not only those 12 guys, but all the crowds that were following him and everything else. The same people who were waving the palm fronds a week before when he entered the city were the same people saying, crucify him. Crucify him. You know, and you say, well, like, what happened there? And then you, you know, you have the example of Peter, right, who denies Christ three times before the cock crows. And you say, well, is this a story to tell us that, you know, Peter was just weak? Peter had this flaw or something like that in his faith, and it's like, actually the opposite. They spent the entire rest of the book explaining you that. No, Peter's the rock. Peter's the dude who doesn't flinch. He's the dude who's willing to pull his sword and defend Jesus when the temple guards come to arrest him. He's not a. It's not a lack of physical courage, but when you're confronted by the demands of a mob people, especially if these are your peers, these are people part of your community, even the very, very best of us shrink from that. And that your job in that instance is to say is not to die for Jesus. Don't pull your sword and go attack the guards and then get yourself killed. That doesn't make you a martyr. You die with Jesus.
- [40:36]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [40:36]
Darrell Cooper
You say, no, I will not go along with this. And you're gonna have to go through me to get to him. And if they do go through you, then that's what it takes. That's, that's.
- [40:45]
Duncan Trussell
And that's a martyr. Yeah. Whoa, Chris. Christianity is so hardcore and so misunderstood. That is so hardcore. And the, the. The. I don't know if you know this and stop me if you do. I ended up on an airplane with a Methodist. Are they ministers or pastors? I don't know the title, but I'm just sitting there. We start talking, find out. He's a minister. What's your favorite book of the Bible? I ask him. Book of John. Oh, shit, that's mine too, because I read. I mean, that's where I had my first Christ experience because I was on acid and read the Book of John and I don't know, something about the LSD and the combination of reading, it broke through all the conditioning. And I got it, I got it. And once you get it, it's hard to un. Get it. And. But then he starts going into detail about the Book of John, which is a non synoptic gospel. It's different from those. And he was saying that in the Book of John. What's interesting, he's talking about Peter. And there's a verse that I vaguely remembered, which is where Jesus is asking, like, peter, do you love me? But the word love gets translated. Just love. And there's three different types of love.
- [41:57]
Darrell Cooper
What is it? Agape in that?
- [41:59]
Duncan Trussell
Agape, the love of a friend. Yeah. Sex love. Obviously Peter didn't say, yeah, I wanna hump you. It was like. But the answer was not agape. One of them is like the love of the universe, like God. And it wasn't that. He said, I love you like a brother. I don't think you're God. It was a sin. More doubt from Peter. And then he was pointing out, and that is who Jesus said, you are the rock, you are the Christian church. And this pattern happens over and over throughout the Bible, which is God is always choosing these miscreants, these people. It makes. No, that's. And also it's saying like, yeah, if you're any kind of lineage that you're engaging in, if you're feeling doubt about it, if you're denying it, if you're turning your back on it, if you're betraying it, just remember that person was the person who Jesus said, you are going to be the great church. You're starting my church. Whoa, that's so cool, man. Yeah, to me, that's beautiful.
- [42:57]
Darrell Cooper
A lot of, a lot of Christians and religious people in general think of doubt as like a weakness or that there's some. If I'm, if I'm having doubts, then there's something wrong here. I need to fix this so that I no longer have these doubts. That is the wrong way to approach it. You know, the, you can, you can even if you are say like an orthodox Catholic, right, where you have just a long, long tradition behind you in dogmas, you're expected to accept and take on board and everything. Even if, like that's where you're coming from, you can say to yourself in all humility, all humility, right, that look, I'm a person who's going to live like 80 years if I'm lucky. I've been thinking about these things part time since I was 20, maybe, you know, most of the time not thinking about this at all. But sometimes I think about it and these are the thoughts I have about what's right and wrong and so forth. And so I'm not going to put whatever conclusions like I come up with. I, I'm not going to be so prideful as to put Those ahead of 1500 years of our smartest and best and most dedicated people discussing these very things. I'm going to accept the conclusions that this institution that I trust has arrived at after these times. Yeah, but there are things in here that I just, I really struggle with. Like, you know, whether maybe it's like the, you know, in the modern age today when social conditions have just changed so much and it's, you know, the sexual morality demands in the Bible, whatever it is, or women not being allowed to speak in church. You know, Paul, people, people struggle with these things whether they admit it to themselves or not. And a lot of people sort of repress those doubts or avoid thinking about them. When those doubts, that's actually your, that's your path. That's Your way into the religion, you know, and, like, over the. You may have those doubts when you die at 80 years old. Bet that you wrestling with them has. Has enriched your faith in ways that you just saying, you know. Yes, you know, father, whatever. Like, way more than doing that.
- [45:00]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [45:00]
Darrell Cooper
Like, that's your path. I think Carl Jung even says something like that about, you know, is it your. Like your flaw, your shadow or something? Like, is your. Is your. I can't remember.
- [45:10]
Duncan Trussell
No, that. That. Who. What's. The Christian patriarch who literally wrestled with an angel. Who was that?
- [45:15]
Darrell Cooper
Jacob.
- [45:16]
Duncan Trussell
Jacob.
- [45:16]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah.
- [45:17]
Duncan Trussell
It's. That's. That's the symbol. Right. Like you.
- [45:19]
Darrell Cooper
I mean, think about. Think about how crazy this is. Right? Like, this is always. This is. Okay, so you got Adam and Eve. They're in the garden.
- [45:27]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [45:27]
Darrell Cooper
And they get tempted and they. You know, you have to imagine if God's a omnipotent, omniscient being and everything, that he built this universe, and he had to have foreseen that this was going to happen. But one way or another, they rebel. And so they go out and they're in the world now. And that act of rebellion. Have you ever seen or read the comic book? I think Netflix made a show of it was actually a pretty good show called Jessica Jones.
- [45:54]
Duncan Trussell
No.
- [45:55]
Darrell Cooper
So it's a comic book story, you know, and it's a little silly or whatever, but there's this woman who's super strong. That's her strength, Jessica Jones. And she's like a private detective or whatever. And the villain in it is this guy called the Purple Man. And the Purple Man's power is he can. If you hear his voice, and he says, duncan, take that bottle and shove it all the way into your eye socket. No hesitation. You pick it up and you just do it. He has total, complete control.
- [46:23]
Duncan Trussell
All right?
- [46:23]
Darrell Cooper
Right. A hundred percent. And she was like. Because she was super strong, he's like, this is going to be a very valuable person to me. And so he made her his sort of girlfriend slash servant, you know, and he would have her do things, break into places or whatever. And at one point, he orders her to kill this woman. And for whatever reason, she has this moment of awakening and she refuses to do it. And she runs off. Well, from that moment on, all he could think about was her.
- [46:55]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [46:56]
Darrell Cooper
This is like a guy who, from the time he was a kid, if he said, mommy, I want a cookie. Yes, son, Here's a million cookies, teacher. I don't think I should have failed this. I think I should have gotten An A. You know what? You're right. Here's an A. This girl I have a crush on, like in middle school. Like, you know, I'd really like to just. He's never been told no or faced any resistance whatsoever in his entire life. And the curse of that is he doesn't know. Did my parents actually love me?
- [47:26]
Duncan Trussell
Right?
- [47:26]
Darrell Cooper
Anybody who ever did anything positive for me, like, oh, shit, he's in his own universe. Everybody else is not really human. They're just video game players, right? And so God creates this universe and the minerals, the vegetables, the fish in the sea, the creeping things, all the. The entire universe from the very beginning, right? It's all just operating according to natural law. So you can say, like, it's operating according to the structure of God's mind, right? And that's it. And all of a sudden, in the middle of that, you have this one creature that says no almost right away. How could you, how could that not become the most important thing to you? It's like, it would be as if like you were dreaming, having a dream and then like all of a sudden like, there's this other person in your dream that like, however, you know, like, you know that like. No, there's actually somebody there, like that's not me creating this. There's actually a person here acting independently within my group. That's the only thing you could, you could focus on, right? And so you get into this. And this is the Jessica Jones story does this really well where, you know, the purple man, like, he actually does love Jessica Jones.
- [48:33]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [48:34]
Darrell Cooper
How could he not? She's the only other real human on the planet.
- [48:37]
Duncan Trussell
She's right.
- [48:38]
Darrell Cooper
Which means she's the only person on the entire planet who can actually choose to love him.
- [48:44]
Duncan Trussell
Wow.
- [48:44]
Darrell Cooper
Who can actually choose to like, you know, that he can trust that her affection is real.
- [48:50]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [48:51]
Darrell Cooper
And yet the very thing that makes her unique and valuable to him is the fact that she can say, no, I don't want you, I don't love you. That's the only thing that matters, right? And so when you get up to like Jacob wrestling with God, that whole story is crazy because, you know, he. He's going to go meet his brother Esau the next day and it's big build up, but the night before, he stays behind on the other side of the river and God comes to him and they get into a wrestling match and Jacob actually holds his own, right? So that he's. He like, as morning comes, God puts his hip out of socket to sort of like force a Stalemate. But, yeah, by the time, like, the sun is coming up, Jacob's holding on to him, and God tells him, let me go, for dawn is breaking. And Jacob says, I will not let you go unless you bless me. And so he blesses him and he gives him a new name, which is Israel.
- [49:38]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [49:39]
Darrell Cooper
Which means one who struggles against or contends with God.
- [49:42]
Duncan Trussell
Wow.
- [49:42]
Darrell Cooper
It's like, wait a second. So the patriarch of Israel. The name itself is a reflection of the fact that you can resist me, that you're not just operating by the laws of motion that I put in the very fact you can tell me no. And then the entire rest of the Old Testament is them telling him no at various points and rebelling against him and him losing his mind over it and just, you know, just punishing them in extraordinary ways and. And having these just insane rants of, like, a betrayed husband, you know?
- [50:17]
Duncan Trussell
Yes.
- [50:18]
Darrell Cooper
And, you know, and what you see being worked out there, because I think one of the. This is. This is maybe a heresy or whatever if you. You know, for fortunately or unfortunately, I was not raised in, like, a. I didn't have a structured religious education, Right. And so, like, it allows me to sort of think of things differently, even if, you know, you have to be careful not to be led astray. Guardrails are sometimes there for sure. But I think that. And I don't. I think if you take the text seriously, this is not really that controversial. But, you know, if you ask any Christian, pretty much, does God change throughout the Bible, they'll tell you no. Even if you look at the Old and New Testament, you can look at, like, the craziest genocidal parts of the Book of Judges and then the Book of John and the New, and they're like, nope, same. Just nothing changes. I don't believe that at all. I think it's very, very clear that's not what's going on.
- [51:09]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [51:10]
Darrell Cooper
If you have a being who has. I mean, the. The very idea of him encountering resistance is. It's a. It's a logical impossibility. Right. He has a thought that there should be light, and light is invented. You know, the whole universe is invented. Just because he has, out of his mind, you know, know, never encountered, like, any kind of resistance, Right. When resistance is like, that's what. That's what throws us back on ourselves and drives us inward and causes us to think of ourselves as something separate from. I mean, you see this in, like, early infant development, right? Where they talk about how when an infant's born has no concept of self, obviously. It's just a. It just exists little, you know, and all it knows is that occasionally I have these sensations that make me want to call out for something to help it. And then a nipple shows up in my mouth. Yes, it goes away and that's it. But then over time, you know, because mom is just a human, you start crying for the nipple, but it takes a little while for her to show up. And then you start to be like, oh, wait, me and Mama are not the same thing. Yeah, oh, wait, me and this whole place are not the same thing. I'm just this one little thing in this, like, you know, and that. This is a massive crisis that, like.
- [52:28]
Duncan Trussell
Yes.
- [52:28]
Darrell Cooper
Is like the seed of our psychology in a lot. And, you know, I think when you get to like in the Bible, like, to me, like the crescendo of. Of at least the, like the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible portion of it is the book of Job. And very interestingly, I don't know the history. I've been meaning to look it up, but I don't know why Christians rearrange the books in this manner. But the book of Job in the Old. In. Not in the Old Testament, but in the Hebrew Bible. So the Jewish Bible, the book of Job, the appearance of God in the whirlwind when he gives him that speech at the end is the last time God speaks to man directly in the entire story. Right. And so. And if you're a Christian, that means it was the last statement he gave to man before he said, this is my son, you know, and the dove descends, like that was the next thing he said. If you. If you look at it that way. And so I, I take that book very, very seriously. And I think that, you know, you have this, like, you have this. If you, If. Okay. Yeah. If you. If you think about the Israelites wandering through the desert after they leave Egypt. Right. And as soon as they get out there, they've been gone a few days and they have no food, they have no water. They're just wandering through a desert.
- [53:46]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [53:47]
Darrell Cooper
And they start complaining to Moses. They're saying, what. What did you bring us out here for? Yeah. Things weren't great in Egypt. We had food. And these people, like, this is not like a. A militia he's leading out there. This is a community of people.
- [54:00]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [54:01]
Darrell Cooper
They're watching their children starve to death.
- [54:03]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [54:04]
Darrell Cooper
Right. And when they start complaining about that and expressing their anxiety over it, God just slaughters them mercilessly, kills thousands of them, sends snakes to bite him just rages, how dare you complain? And the thing that strikes me when I read that is like, that God, he doesn't know. God knows everything, you know, but there are certain, like, logical requirements that, you know, the, the whole, like, can he lift a.
- [54:32]
Duncan Trussell
Or can he make a rock so big?
- [54:35]
Darrell Cooper
It's like this is. These are, these are logical problems that, you know, that are limits on his power sort of. And you know, the. And you have one here where like, yeah, he knows everything. He doesn't know what it's like to watch his child starve to death.
- [54:48]
Duncan Trussell
Right. So he's having like, he's having like, first child parenting issues essentially. He's got no social skills.
- [54:56]
Darrell Cooper
No social skills. And also like his own sense of himself as separate from all of this or having like a relationship to it is like developing in real time. And you're watching it over the course of the story. And, and so when he's like doing this to the, to. To the Israelites, you realize, like, he has no idea what it's like to be afraid. He has no idea what it's like to. To suffer, to watch his child starve to death. What that's like, what, you know, he has no idea. And so he goes through, like, you have the whole story. He's just again, like, just, just brutality after brutality because they whore after other gods or whatever until you get to the book of Job. And the book of Job is so interesting because it starts off by telling you. And you know, Christians will tell you that, like, no person is without sin or whatever. But I think that's why the book of Job at the very beginning says, yeah, we get that. But this guy, for the purposes of this story, was blameless. He was without sin.
- [55:52]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [55:53]
Darrell Cooper
And he loses his family, all his goods, just suffers terribly. Why? Because God bless kind of got tricked by Satan into like, taking this bet. And actually, like, you know, people always put all the responsibility for Satan on that. If you actually read the way the story is structured, God's sitting in his throne room and Satan comes through and God says, hey, get over here. Have you seen my servant Job? You know, he's the best. He's just totally loved. He started it.
- [56:22]
Duncan Trussell
He's bragging, basically.
- [56:23]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah. And he basically challenges the devil in a way to be, you know, by, by provoking him in that way. And so Job has things happen to him that if you're a human being and you know what it's like to watch your children be killed or just any of these terrible things, I Mean, just unbelievable suffering that this man is put through on a whim that means really nothing. It's just a. It's just a whim in heaven, you know, a bet in heaven. And Job starts complaining. You know, he goes through for 30 chapters as his friends show up and give him all the standard theological reasons for like, well, they must have done. The point is God is just, which means that if these things happen, there's a reason or whatever they give them.
- [57:06]
Duncan Trussell
What are some of the things happening? Like, we're talking boils, right? That's early phase Job, right?
- [57:11]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah.
- [57:12]
Duncan Trussell
Doesn't he get boils? I think it's boils. House destroyed, children die.
- [57:16]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah.
- [57:17]
Duncan Trussell
Literally every bad thing that can happen to you, all the bad things he's.
- [57:20]
Darrell Cooper
Until he's literally sitting in the ashes of his burned down house with a pottery shard scraping like boils. Boils.
- [57:29]
Duncan Trussell
Scratching his boils.
- [57:31]
Darrell Cooper
That's what he's reduced to. And his wife is the only person in his family left, and she comes up to him, of all people, and says, enough of this. Just curse God and die. Right? So he goes through for 30 chapters, and he doesn't curse God, but, boy, he lets him have it though. And the whole thrust of job's lament for 30 chapters, just unbelievable. Like, to me, it's just. It's up there with like, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of John, a few other things. That's the most. One of the pinnacles of, like, world religious literature where he basically, like, challenges him to come down, like, almost like in a court of law. He's like, no, no, no, no, no. You said that if I did this, this, that and this, then you would do this, this and this. Yeah, I did that. What is going on? You need to come down here and you need to explain yourself to me. And his friends are like, well, you must have done some. There was a hidden sin. He's like, no, I refuse to accept that. I refuse to accept any of that. I did nothing wrong. And I want him to come down here and tell me why he is doing this to me. Right? And that, that intransigent. Intransigent. Intransigent, like, defiance of Job in that, you know, refusing to, to accept all those standard explanations and, you know, to, to admit a sin that he did not commit. Yeah, it, it. I think it finally created that moment of resistance in God where he got kind of thrown back on himself and realized that, like, I mean, because, look, I don't really care. Like, you can come up with any sort of abstract theological justification you want. God is the villain in the book of Job and I think we're supposed to read it that way.
- [59:13]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [59:13]
Darrell Cooper
And I think Job is the one who showed him. Look, all of this stuff, these people you've been killing, the things you've been putting them through, you've been so angry because they act like humans. Guess what this is like. You put us in this world, in a world that is a thresher. It's a threshing floor. I mean, you throw us into this world where everybody we know is going to die. We're going to watch them die or they're going to watch us die. Everything we care about, we know is eventually going to go away. All that. And then we have to just live in this world and deal with it. You know, I have to live with in a world where six year old children get leukemia and die.
- [59:52]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [59:52]
Darrell Cooper
You know, and this is the world that we live in. And I think that having that encounter in the significance of, of God's response to it being the. Being the final statement to mankind basically in the Hebrew Bible, until.
- [60:10]
Duncan Trussell
Can you actually pull up, what does he say? Like, who are you to question that which created the Leviathan? Is that it? Yeah, yeah, pull up. Just I guess Google. Who are you? I don't know. Do you know the verse? Exactly.
- [60:22]
Darrell Cooper
It's what you get up to. Like I think like chapter 38 or three. He's up there like in the final chapter two.
- [60:27]
Duncan Trussell
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- [64:53]
Darrell Cooper
It's a long. It's like, it's like pages.
- [64:55]
Duncan Trussell
But it's cool. It's basically, it's like, who the are you? I made the way I made. I don't know if he meant whales. Maybe I made dinosaurs.
- [65:03]
Darrell Cooper
Well, the way people like, like a standard Christian interpretation of that is that he's. This is like an almost like an ego driven thing.
- [65:10]
Duncan Trussell
Yes.
- [65:10]
Darrell Cooper
He's coming to Job and being like, do you have any idea how big and strong and powerful and old I am?
- [65:15]
Duncan Trussell
Like, you're sitting there in a pile of ash, scratching your boils. I made dinosaurs.
- [65:21]
Darrell Cooper
Right. And, and I think that after what happened to Job and the injustice of everything, that's a very like, unsatisfying kind of conclusion to that story. Right. But I think another way of looking at it is he's telling him, like, you know, you want me to come down and explain to you, like, why you deserve this? What in any of what you've experienced in your entire life has led you to think that deserve has anything to do with, with this stuff? It just doesn't. This is the world. Does the, does the gazelle deserve to get ripped apart by the lion? You know, does just all of these things that happen where, you know, and I think the, the, the core of it really is that in order for Job, for you to even be here in any capacity asking these questions, like, the world has to be structured the way it is. It has to be structured to, you know, to, to change and evolve over time. And that's how you got here and that's how this whole thing works. And if it doesn't, then the world is just a dead place that doesn't move or have any kind of becoming. And so this is how it has to work. But for us, you know, we experience most change is suffering.
- [66:33]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [66:34]
Darrell Cooper
And we experience the anticipation of change is like anxiety and fear. And these are like inherent to our condition, living in the world. And so I think that God says, and this is me speaking as a Christian, obviously, that you Know, everybody thinks of the. Of the crucifixion story in terms of, like, old. I still don't understand how. How like, this became. I mean, I understand the historical development of the idea, but how so many people came to accept a version of the crucifixion story that is essentially just an enlarged version of just pagan sacrifice stories.
- [67:11]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [67:11]
Darrell Cooper
You have an angry God and he needs to be appeased by sacrifice blood. And, yeah, you can keep doing it, like, with animals and stuff, but you gotta do it again and again. But this is the Son of God, and he's perfect. And so that's a perfect sacrifice. And it puts in. It finally appeases him.
- [67:25]
Duncan Trussell
Yes.
- [67:26]
Darrell Cooper
And you think of that and you're like, well, I mean, if God doesn't want to punish us, like, why does he have to go through all this, elaborate. Send his son to die and all those kind of things? And this is another heresy for me, but heresy too. Yeah. I think that people think of the crucifixion as the means by which man reconciled the God. I think it was the means by which God was reconciled.
- [67:49]
Duncan Trussell
Wow.
- [67:49]
Darrell Cooper
Is him saying, like, look, I kind of get it now. I kind of get what you've been going through this entire time that I didn't get before, you know, because how could I? But I kind of get it now. And I. I can't change the way the world works. It has to work this way. What I can do is I can come down there and experience it with you. Yeah, I can come down there, I can send my son, you know, however you want to think about the Trinity or whatever. But, like, you know, I can come down there, send my son down there, and I can suffer and be humiliated and spit on and tortured and killed with the rest of you.
- [68:23]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [68:23]
Darrell Cooper
And that by doing that, I mean the very significance of, like, you know, because people will say, like, well, yeah, but he was Guy, you know, Jesus was God. He knew he was going to. After this was all over, he was going to end up in heaven or whatever. It's like, no, no, no. They kind of go out of their way to let us know when he says, father, Father, why have you forsaken me? That he kind of, like, wasn't so sure about that. Like, you know, at the very, very end, like, he had reached a point where he felt abandoned by God.
- [68:51]
Duncan Trussell
Yep.
- [68:51]
Darrell Cooper
And, like, to. For him. So he. He experienced all the things then that we experience in the way that we experience him, like, real fear. That. That that night before in the garden, he gets Arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he's there, like, he's saying, please. Like, is there any. Any other way we can do this? Like, I. I'll do it, but, man, like, can we please? Like, it's. There must be something. Something else, you know, but not my will, but yours be done. And like. But that. That humanness of, like, this is Jesus Christ the night before the. You know, he gets arrested to be crucified, Terrified about what's about to happen.
- [69:28]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [69:28]
Darrell Cooper
And then he goes through all of the. Again, not just the violence, but the humiliation and the doubts of, like, you know, was I just full of shit this whole time? Like, is like, you know, all the things that we go through and that by sharing that experience with it, with us, I think that it, you know, it's the means by which we can, you know, that God can reconcile himself, you know, without changing the universe and the structure of reality in a way that would just ruin the whole thing.
- [69:55]
Duncan Trussell
It's like God. God's enlightenment. God realizes I am you. There is no distinction. Here it goes. You think of God as some kind of unified consciousness, and yet there is distinction, clearly, in the way that the interactions that you've been describing imply a distinction. In this case, there's fusion that happens here. The crucifixion represents fusion. And this is. This event was so potent, it's like. Or another way to put it, if you wanted to get psychoanalytical. You know, it's the superego merging. It's the neurosis, like, finally finding the catharsis. And, yeah, sure, anybody who encounters the initial story is going to have a lot of very justifiable questions. This seems idiotic. None of this makes sense. What are you talking about? My sins redeemed by what? Eating God meat? Really? I turn bread into imaginary God meat and then I'm okay again? Fuck you. Where's my Richard Dawkins book? But the way you've just described it is what I love about Christianity. It's like, yeah, sure, there's a surface level stuff that is challenging on purpose, but then the deeper exploration leads you to an encounter with the epitome of what humans could be. It's a possibility. And, whoa, once you taste that possibility, even though you might not be able to do it. And by that possibility, I mean fusion. We're talking about a. This is in, you know, Jesus. Many of the parables, you know, the vine, you know, you have to. You are the vine. If you're separated from the vine, you will Wither the vine is an invitation. You are now part of, of me now. Not something, not my subjects anymore. And whoa, that's a heavy thing, man. And that's why I will always love it so much. And it's so. To me, what is so befuddling. And I get it, man. On one level we see the televangelist or whatever, but I am so befuddled by the amount of pushback I get. If I talk about Jesus in a positive way on my podcast or in general. I can have Satanist on here. I can talk, you know, anything is fine. But don't you fucking say positive things about Christianity. What the fuck is that? Doesn't that seem weird to you, though? I mean, really, like, it's like of all the world religions, it's cool to be Buddhist. It's even cool to be Muslim.
- [72:48]
Darrell Cooper
But I think there's a certain amount. And you see this not only in like, religious debates and thinking in the west, but there's like a certain amount of like, xenophilia that, that, that. That has to do with it where like, the strange and the foreign is just. The exotic is. Is kind of cool.
- [73:05]
Duncan Trussell
That's a sweet way to look at it. I get creeped out, you know, I get creeped out by it because, you know, I do. Just for my own sanity and not go spinning into some manic spiral, I like to deconstruct the idea of Satan into a symbol of. Well, you actually, on your Easter episode, it's really cool. I think it was your Easter episode, you were talking about Satan as the accuser. Satan is the. But I like to like, take this. It's like, I'm going to go, Joseph Campbell here. It's not real. There's no Satan. Satan. Ah, come on. There's no Satan. And yet the reaction the world has to this philosophy where from? I can't really take anything more offensive. I mean, I'm sure there's lots of critiques like what you were mentioning earlier. Like, there's some, you know, patriarchal misogyny that shows up if we're going to go to the Old Testament. Everything you just described is like, okay, so you can't eat shellfish. Or, you know, I guess God just smushes his people like ants or whatever, right? But you look at any world religion, you can find examples of that. And yet the fact that this one in particular is met with the identical reaction that Jesus was met with, that the fractal continues to this day that I don't know of. Like, I'M sure there are examples of Hindu saints that were thrown on pyres. I'm just not as much aware. But when we talk about the Christian martyr and you hear these stories, these people are being incinerated, Their eyes are being gouged out, they're being tortured. And while they're being incinerated and tortured, they're praying for the people torturing them. But I mean, like, you think of Saul, it was like a national sport to feed Christians to lions. But what the fuck are they doing? Like, if you look at the thing, it's like what is built in there that is so abhorrent to the world, but, boy, does it get a reaction from the world.
- [75:20]
Darrell Cooper
Well, I mean, it's the. That's the. It's the real threat to Satan, you know, I mean, like.
- [75:25]
Duncan Trussell
So you believe in an actual Satan? Satan?
- [75:28]
Darrell Cooper
I think he's an egregore sort of, you know, where, like. Do you believe in the military industrial complex? It's like, really, it's just a bunch of bureaucrats and employees at the defense contractors and executives and so forth who all have their own lives.
- [75:41]
Duncan Trussell
Right?
- [75:42]
Darrell Cooper
But no, there's a thing, you know, they don't have the military industrial complex headquarters and they have annual meetings or whatever, but it's a thing. And it has a will.
- [75:51]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [75:51]
Darrell Cooper
And a certain amount of agency that we all feel and have to respond to. And so it has reality, you know, even if you can't point to its headquarters. And I think Satan's something like that, you know, like an egregore is like an autonomous, sure. Spiritual being that, you know, maybe has a. Has a fleeting reality if it's something that's created.
- [76:12]
Duncan Trussell
Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny.
- [76:15]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah, sure.
- [76:16]
Duncan Trussell
Hamburglar.
- [76:16]
Darrell Cooper
I mean, you have like, even like William Butler Yates, the Irish poet who, you know, he was an occultist and I love him. Yeah, he would. Yeah. His. His poem. I've been studying his poem, A Vision for probably like 20 years. I still don't understand it, but I really love it. But, you know, he would talk about. Has talked about how his little group that they.
- [76:35]
Duncan Trussell
That's the Order of the golden dawn, right?
- [76:36]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah, yeah. That they conjured a. An egregore, a creature, you know, I guess a spiritual being that everybody saw and it was walking around and so forth. And so if you have like, you know, for. For a small group of people to do something like that, it takes a tremendous amount of just focus and discipline and, you know, all of the things that people like that put themselves through. In order to be able to come together as a group and make something like that happen. I think that large groups of people who are really motivated by emotion and like just all, you know, very, very powerful, like psychological currents flowing through the crowd and a mob that they. These things get generated, like spontaneous.
- [77:16]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [77:16]
Darrell Cooper
You know, and, and so, yeah, I think that, I think Satan has reality, whether, you know, I don't believe in like a red guy with a pitchfork, but, you know, there's, there's a, there's a force out there that has an autonomous sense of agency and goals that are opposed to ours that, that you can identify as Satan. I do think that.
- [77:37]
Duncan Trussell
And Christianity is sort of like the antithesis of all those goals. It's the antidote, the challenge. And thus if anything's going to be attacked, there it is. And so what do you think? If you had to summarize it, what is that? What is the challenge? Why.
- [77:59]
Darrell Cooper
So if you go like the Romans, right? The Romans with their pagan religion, but really anybody, everywhere that Christianity went, people, the first response to it is that it was crazy. You know, our gods are powerful, they're on the top of the mountain, exalted, you know, in light. And your literal symbol is you're telling us that the whole, not just that this is not a side, you know, passage in one of your, in one of your stories, the whole center is that the one God of the universe, the creator of the universe, came down to be with mankind one time. And so this is. Obviously he's thought about this. You know, he's put some thought the presentation, right? And he came down to be humiliated, spit on, beaten, tortured and killed as a common criminal. And that symbol is actually the thing that you all wear around your neck, you have behind your altars at your churches. Like, to non Christian cultures, that's an insane kind of thing to do, you know, I mean, it's just, it's just the opposite of what a God is supposed to be. Because they had, you know, I mean, like the Romans had an idea of, of, of fate and luck that, you know, when we say somebody got lucky like today, it's almost an insult, you know, if the Roman said something like that, no, you were blessed by the gods. You know, you're doing something right. And therefore you were rewarded in these ways. And, and so somebody who, whatever, however he lived his life from, whoever he was or anything like that, if he ended up like this, then no, that's a person that does not deserve any of your respect, does not deserve any. Certainly not Your worship, you know, and that's how it was sort of viewed. But to then understand that, like, you don't know. You want to get real heretical. I know, like, number three. Yeah. So, like. And anything. Any. Okay. We were talking earlier about how Uday Hussein, Hitler, like, whatever. There was a time when these were just children with their whole lives ahead of them who would never hurt a fly.
- [79:54]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [79:55]
Darrell Cooper
Maybe there's some Jeffrey Dahmer types out there who were just born congenitally like that.
- [80:00]
Duncan Trussell
Sure.
- [80:01]
Darrell Cooper
Who knows? But those. You know, fine. But. But 99.9. Of all the evil in the world is committed by people who did not start out that way and who at the time probably did not believe they were doing something evil or thought that they were accepting the responsibility of doing something evil in order to further a greater good. Right. The whole, like, grand inquisitor in. In the brothers kind of thing. Like, it's, you know. Yeah. We have to bear the responsibility of being the ones who do this, but we're doing it for the greater good, that kind of thing. And. Oh, geez. Oh, right. And so. And so you take all the evil in the world, whatever it is you say, why was, you know, my mom such a bitch to me today? Why does my teacher hate me? Why did this person get murdered? Why did this whole race of people get exterminated? All of those things, right? And you can say, well, it was because of this. It's like, well, okay, but you can take that back another layer because that really has a cause, too. And you go back and you go back and you go back. And the answer to all of it is that. Because that's how God made the world. He made the world. And so who's responsible for that genocide or that murder or your mom being a bitch, who's responsible? I think the crucifixion is God taking responsibility.
- [81:17]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [81:18]
Darrell Cooper
You know, I'm responsible. If you want somebody to hate, hate me. Do I want you to look up at my corpse hanging on the. Hanging on the cross, and then I want you to eat my flesh and drink my blood, which if you look at, like, ancient cultures, like primitive cultures or just.
- [81:35]
Duncan Trussell
Hey.
- [81:35]
Darrell Cooper
Where they had ritual sacrifices.
- [81:36]
Duncan Trussell
Don't threaten me with a good time, dude.
- [81:39]
Darrell Cooper
One of the things that I find that a lot of people who talk about ritual sacrifice and cannibalism. I did a whole series on this.
- [81:47]
Duncan Trussell
I missed. I can't wait to hear that.
- [81:49]
Darrell Cooper
Is that they. They sort of talk their way around the aggressive and violent aspect of it. You know, let's Say, like, Like Jordan Peterson has this explanation which is very ingenious and very interesting, and I think there's probably something to it that sacrifice. You. Like, it's sort of the invention, the psychological invention of the future. It's a. It's a recognition of the fact that if I give up something now, that will cause a benefit, like, later on. Okay, so you're no longer just an impulsive animal who's reacting to things. You can actually think ahead and take action that's going to.
- [82:22]
Duncan Trussell
Right.
- [82:22]
Darrell Cooper
And the ultimate way of sort of making that real is to. Is to. Is to give up something valuable in order to achieve a benefit. And I think there's probably something interesting there for sure, but you still have to, like, answer the question of, like. Yeah, but, like, they're killing their children. They're killing human beings. Sometimes. Like, if you look at, like, you know, the Aztecs and the Mayans, they would have their sacred ball game that they would play that was only played by, like, the sons of the highest nobility in their. In their society. And the captain of the winning team got sacrificed at the end of the game. That was his reward. Right? And so, like, you think, like, this is. This is just, evolutionarily speaking, like, in just totally contradictory. Like, you're killing off some of your best people, like, for. For no real. For a symbolic purpose, I guess. And, you know, that. That aggressive aspect of it, I think bleeds over to, like, when. When, you know, when you, when you, You. You take communion and you're symbolically, you know, it's a sublimate. It's. This was something else. It was just crazy to, like, Romans and other others that, like, where Christianity spreads, like, what do you mean? You're like, transubstantiation, baby. We're still like, holding, you know, throwing spears and, like, whatever, and even we're over cannibalism. Like, what do you mean? You're cannibalizing your God, right? But cannibalism, like, if you look at the, at the society meanwhile, the Romans.
- [83:50]
Duncan Trussell
Were like, fisting gorillas. They weren't exactly like, you know what I mean? They were saying that while they had gorilla fists in their buttholes.
- [83:56]
Darrell Cooper
But cannibalism is like.
- [83:58]
Duncan Trussell
I don't know if that was really happening. I just watched Gladiator 2. They seem kind of like freaks in.
- [84:02]
Darrell Cooper
The, in the, in the cultures that practiced it in a ritual way. So it was something that had social sanction that was part of their. Part of their social system. Sacrifice, the aggressive aspect of human sacrifice and cannibalism is. I mean, it's right out front. It's. It's. It's just plainly obvious that that's what's going on and cannibalizing your enemy. You know, if you think about it, like, we have this used to have, like, I think was. The Maori people, right, would have this ritual where when their men would go off to war, they'd go off to battle. And then when they were coming back, before they got to the village, the priests would go out there and stop them and meet them. And the women priests would come out and start doing all of these incantations and spells to. To purge them of this curse that they were bringing back with them. Even as the people in the town are celebrating their victory.
- [85:01]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [85:02]
Darrell Cooper
Everybody recognizes there's something dangerous about these guys. They're carrying something in them now that, like, we have to. We have to, you know, purge them of before they can be readmitted to our society. And so it takes days. And they go through, like, you know, all of. All of these things. And I think that. And, you know, that that's one example of it. But, like, just overall, we have this idea that, like, I mean, if you want to talk. You were talking about, like, the idea of punching someone back twice as hard. The problem with approaching things that way, and everybody knows this, who has. Who's done it, who's carry, you know, who's acted on this impulse, is that afterwards there's this vague feeling that sometimes we don't elucidate or even recognize, but it's in there. And that feeling is that somehow this is not over. Like, there's still something hanging out there. And like, maybe in, you know, like just the sort of literal sense. You know, it's like, I killed a guy, but now I got to worry about his brothers. But, like, really, it's like I. I've done something that, like, now there's a debt to be paid, and it's. It's hanging out there. And so how do you kind of close that loop? And you see this in, like, very primitive cultures where. Where their. Their. Their rituals are like, they're not sublimated the way they are now. They're not symbolically cannibalizing somebody. They're actually cannibalizing somebody. And part of the civilizing process is really the. It's the, like, it's the. It's the progressive sublimation of these demands that we just have deep in our psychology, figuring out how to satisfy those symbolically rather than literally, right? And and so when God, you know, when we gaze up at his. At his murdered, crucified corpse for an hour and a half in church, and we go through a holiday ritual and all of these things that are completely focused around this, and then we eat him. We eat his flesh. You know, even in the last. People read the Last Supper, and they're like, oh, Jesus is telling him, like, you know, integrate me into your being, where it's like, there might be some. All of that. I think what really, like, what's being said there is if you want somebody to hate, I'm the guy. Kill me, eat my flesh. You know, just do the worst, most final thing. Imagine the highest act of aggression, you know, eat your enemy. I'm actually responsible for all of your suffering on some level. All of you, you know, including the devil, including Uday Hussein and Hitler, you know. And so if you want somebody to hate, don't hate them. Don't hate, because in a way, they're victims of this, too. So hate me if you need somebody to hate. And that, to me, is like. Only it answers the question of, like, why Jesus couldn't just be just some guy who was an enlightened person who really kind of was just, you know, he understood, like, all of these things. And so it had to be God, because only God could. Could be the person that could bear that, you know, could bear all that responsibility. Jesus, if he was just some saint and if he was like, you know, I'm responsible for all of this. Hate me. It's like, no, you're not. You're not really, you know, And. But. But God can take that responsibility legitimately. And. And it's. And it's our way out of hating even our enemies. You know, you can love even your enemy if you sort of recognize that in a. In a maybe long, roundabout way, he's a victim of the same things that you're a victim of.
- [88:37]
Duncan Trussell
Wow.
- [88:38]
Darrell Cooper
And that doesn't mean you don't execute a murderer. You know, it just means when you pull the lever on the electric chair, you don't do it with hatred in your heart, and in fact, you do it with grief in your heart.
- [88:48]
Duncan Trussell
And don't electrocute them too long, because you'll overcook them, and then when you eat their flesh, it won't taste as good. Can you pull up? Because it is Lent. We're almost out of Lent here. I know this. My wife's Catholic. Can you pull up? Jesus in the desert painting. You ever seen this painting? This is what I love about Jesus. And this is why I really. This is what appeals to me about Christianity as opposed to other. Yeah. This episode of the DTFH is brought to you by Hims. Let me show you something, friends. Can you see my bald spot, Josh? Look at that. Look at that. You know, I'm pretty sure that they sponsored me because of my hair. Is it kind of like this is what happens? This could be you. This could be you, and it is me. And I love myself. Let me tell you. I sure would love a nice flowing head of hair. It's too late for me. It's a dry. It's. Forget it. It's Chernobyl. It's Mars. Like, I'd have to terraform my scalp. I'd have to get Elon Musk to land on my scalp and put robots up there. I don't know. It's just not gonna happen. And I'm. I'm fine with. Sort of fine with that. Look, if you're starting to notice your hair thinning when you look in the mirror, you're not alone. Life just gets busier and busier and it can feel like there's not enough time in the day to do something about it. I felt like that. Now look at me. So try him's hair loss solutions. You can avoid jumping through a bunch of frustrating hoops and get access to treatment without even leaving your home. I could have done that. They didn't exist when this beautiful hair started. People would compliment me on my hair. They'd say, you have beautiful, curly hair. Not anymore. Not anymore. Sometimes my kids will just look at it and go, what happened? HIMS provides you with convenient access to a range of hair loss treatments that work all from the comfort of your couch. HIMS makes treating hair loss simple with doctor trusted options and clinically proven ingredients like finasteride and minoxidil that can regrow your hair in as little as three to six months. Choose from personalized chewable oral spray and serum treatments to find out what works best for you. The process is simple and 100% online, so there are no uncomfortable doctor visits. Answer a few questions and a medical provider will determine if treatment is right for you. If prescribed, your treatment is sent directly to you for free. No insurance is needed, and one low price covers everything from treatments to ongoing care. HIMSA has hundreds of thousands of trusted subscribers, and they can help you get your confidence back, too, with visibly thicker and fuller hair. Or you could just do this. Just do this. Look at that. Start your free online Visit today@hims.com Duncan that's H I M S.com Duncan for your personalized hair loss treatment options. Hisss.com Duncan results vary based on studies of topical and oral minoxidil and finasteride. Prescription products require an online consultation with a health care provider who will determine if a prescription is appropriate. Restrictions apply. See website for full details and important safety information. Do it for me. Do it for this old patch. Holy shit. This is my favorite Christian painting. Pull that up, man. Can you enlarge it? Look at this. It's on Amazon. It's only. Look at that. Isn't that amazing? That's God. And look at the. Now if you zoom. Can you zoom in on that? On his face? Cause this painter, what's his name? Ivan Kremskoy, captured two things. Well, I see things in this. People see different things. One, this dude's been out in the desert. It sucks, he's starving. But then if you look really closely, you see this. The cosmic smile inside of that is also built into that look of despair. I'm gonna have to die. I'm gonna get beaten to death. I'm gonna get crucified. This is bullshit. I'm out in the desert, nowhere to sleep, sleeping on rocks. Used to be God. What the fuck did I do? Mixed into that is the human realization of the transcendent and the enlightened state that's hiding behind all the despair. He captured the whole thing. Man.
- [93:45]
Darrell Cooper
That's an unbelievable painting, isn't it?
- [93:47]
Duncan Trussell
Unbelievable. And this is what I love. And so when I interpret the Last Supper, I don't see it the way you see it, though I love your interpretation. I see it from a very human side, which is if we look at the experience of Jesus walking around with these people and you read. That's what got me with the book of John, is realizing like whoever wrote this, their consciousness, the consciousness of what wrote this is non standard, to put it lightly. The sense with John as opposed to the other ones, we get the feeling maybe this person was there and you can almost feel it in the writing. But the love, the love of this being and the love he had for those people. Last supper. Imagine this is the last time you're gonna be hanging out with these people. And to me, the thing that is so cheesy, I will tear up every time he's saying. Just when you. It's really the sweetest thing you could say to your friends. When you drink wine, that's me. I'm not going anywhere. When you eat good food, that's me. I'll always be with you. I'm going to be with you in these moments. I'm going nowhere. It's a comforting moment to me. But also what I love about legitimate bona fide scripture is it's a fractal. It operates. The equation goes deep. Both of those things that you're talking about are combining there. You're talking about the enlightenment or the fusion of the Old Testament style. God and it's intertwined with the human element that it's fusing with. And those two things are meeting at the Last Supper in this beautiful way, in the way that when you start really going deep into this and that's how it lures you in. Because it starts off by like. I think a lot of people come to Christianity by denying it. They come to Christianity because this is bullshit. Let me read this shit so I could tell my fucking Christian friend what a dumb piece of shit he is. And then you get sucked into the symbol set and realize, whoa, it wasn't what I thought. So to me, that's what I see there is like, that's what I love about Jesus. In the book of John, they say the great moment wasn't the resurrection. Have you heard this before? It was the crucifixion. The crucifixion was all after everything. Post crucifixion, who gives a fuck? The rising from the dead and all this stuff. And then Mel Gibson movie that's coming out.
- [96:22]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah, I'm wondering where he's going with it. I mean, the last one kind of wrapped a bow around it pretty well, I thought. I think it needed a sequel.
- [96:32]
Duncan Trussell
And I'll tell you, I got excited about that because I thought that it was Jesus descent into hell. Now I'm excited to see Mel Gibson's interpretation of hell and Jesus wandering through hell. But no, it doesn't appear to be that. It seems like it should just be like after the credits roll the scene. After credits roll, it just. I don't know, it's, you know, he's like showing the holes in his hand and the lights beaming through it and all that shit.
- [96:55]
Darrell Cooper
It's interesting, you know, you mentioned kind of in passing how that was the last time that he was going to hang out with these guys. And you know, the thing about, I.
- [97:05]
Duncan Trussell
Mean, he was gonna hang out with them one more time. You know what I mean? Sorry, still too soon. Heresy.
- [97:12]
Darrell Cooper
But the reason that was the last time he was gonna hang out with them is because these men who had watched him feed thousands, had watched him heal the Sick and the lame and all. They were all gonna abandon him.
- [97:23]
Duncan Trussell
That's right.
- [97:24]
Darrell Cooper
My maybe second favorite Christ painting now, but after you just showed me that one. But is Hieronymus Bosch. Bosch's Christ.
- [97:31]
Duncan Trussell
I haven't seen this.
- [97:33]
Darrell Cooper
I'll bet you have. Just B, O, S, C, H. Christ. Crucifixion. It'll come up. No, that's not even close to. But that's okay.
- [97:42]
Duncan Trussell
No one could spell Hieronymous. Hieronymus can imagine if that was your name.
- [97:46]
Darrell Cooper
I know.
- [97:46]
Duncan Trussell
Trying to get a reservation. B, O, S, C, H. Christ. Christ.
- [97:54]
Darrell Cooper
Yeah.
- [97:58]
Duncan Trussell
I have not seen this.
- [98:00]
Darrell Cooper
The. The second one. Yeah, there you go. Down right below on the left. Yeah.
- [98:06]
Duncan Trussell
So this is the.
- [98:07]
Darrell Cooper
This is. The mob is surrounding him as holy as he's going to the. To the cross. Right? And you, you know, you look at that painting and you say, you know, where were these men who. Who yesterday were willing to die for him? Where the. Really? Here's the crazy question. And as you say, where are the throngs of people who were waving palm fronds and welcoming him into Jerusalem one week before? And the. The scary answer is, they're right there. That's them. Because that's. That's what happens when the devil takes control of us. You know, the devil moves in crowds. God speaks to us individually.
- [98:47]
Duncan Trussell
Wow.
- [98:49]
Darrell Cooper
I, like. I was talking to my.
- [98:52]
Duncan Trussell
Is that your quote? The devil moves in crowds?
- [98:56]
Darrell Cooper
I guess so.
- [98:57]
Duncan Trussell
That's the word. That is the creepiest thing I ever heard. That's. Anytime I'm having a bad trip, that's the vibe I get, man. What the fuck? That's so creepy.
- [99:05]
Darrell Cooper
Everybody's felt it. Every single human being has felt it and knows exactly what I'm talking about when I say that. I was talking to my friend's little cousin. He's a young, young guy not too long ago, and he asked me for a piece of advice. Just like, not on a given thing. He wanted just, like, piece of advice. Likes the podcast and everything. He wants some advice. And so I told him a story that you've heard the Easter episode. And so you. You know the story. I think. I think I talked about in there when I was in high school, was riding the bus to school, and we're the troublemakers in the back shooting spitballs and paper airplanes and all that. And we're the cool kids. And this is when I was. I was staying with my grandparents up in Montana. And so we're on a bus ride that takes like an hour because they go around, pick Everybody up from their farms and.
- [99:55]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah, everything else.
- [99:56]
Darrell Cooper
And, and so the bus becomes like a, a social environment of its own. Right. When you're on it two hours, three hours a day. And so one day we stop and it's a house we've never stopped at before. And this girl who's maybe a year younger than me, I think I was maybe a junior and she was a sophomore or something like that, and her little brother, who is maybe seven or something, get onto the bus. Nobody knows who these people are.
- [100:20]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah.
- [100:20]
Darrell Cooper
And so they sit up at the front of the bus. They're obviously very shy. She's sitting with her little sibling and people are asking in the back, like, what, who's this? Like, what's her name? Like what's going on? And you could see like just the house we stopped at and their clothes and stuff. This was not a wealthy family, you know, this is a, this is a poor. On the poorer side. Right. Trailer, you know, double wide they lived in and everything. And so they, they come on. It's a 15 year old girl and her 76 year old little brother. Right. God, man, this story like. And people want to know what her name is. And so somebody just gets up, some smart ass goes up and says, hey, what's your name? And so she tells him and he yells back it's Billy Joe. And somebody shouts out, immediately one of my friends shouts out, billy Joe. More like Sloppy Joe. And then immediately somebody follows that up with more like Sloppy Ho.
- [101:14]
Duncan Trussell
Hmm.
- [101:15]
Darrell Cooper
This is her first encounter with this place she's going to spend the next several years at. And you know, she kind of sinks down in her seat for the entire rest of the time I was at that school with her. Her name was Sloppy Hoe.
- [101:29]
Duncan Trussell
Yeah, right.
- [101:30]
Darrell Cooper
And what you saw develop over time was, you know, she became. I pray. I literally have prayed about this a million times. Like literally. I'm not, you know, saying it in a figurative way that I have prayed that she ended up all right. Because you could see it affect the development of this young girl's personality. You're Talking about a 15 year old girl who comes to a new environment and is immediately just, you know, it just completely, that kind of thing can completely derail a person's life, you know. And here's the worst part about it is I knew at the time and I've known every day, I never called her that. I was always tried to be nice to her and stuff, but I was part of the friend group that like, you know, had the assholes in it. And so she was always real standoffish with me. And I talked to like, I knew some people who were part of the friend group she became a part of, which was kind of the outcast kids, you know, Know. And they would tell me like, she's like the sweetest person. Yeah, she was a bitch to everybody else because of course, you know, and the thing that I've always thought about from that day forward, and this is what I told my buddies, you know, the young guy I was talking to.
- [102:39]
C
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- [103:08]
Darrell Cooper
I said that I knew at the time that if I would have been like, dude, shut the fuck up, that everybody would have stopped, right? They wouldn't have kicked my ass. They wouldn't have like turned on me or anything like that. Just me interjecting and being like, what are you doing? Would make those people be like, yeah, we're kind of being assholes. Hey, sorry, Billy Joe. And it could have changed everything. Yeah, but I was a coward. I didn't do it. And there were times, you know, there were other times in other situations where I stood up for a person like that, and there were other times where I didn't. And I told the kid, I said every single time that I pussed out. I still think about them almost every day. And whatever the consequences that you bear for standing with that person at the time, whatever you're afraid of, whatever you think your friends are going to turn on you, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. None of that remotely compares to feeling the guilt of that for the next however long your life, because I felt it for 30 years and it's not worth it. Stand up for that girl and whatever happens, you will not regret it. You will regret not doing it. And to me, like, that's the essence of the Christian message in a lot of ways. Never be a part of that crowd. In fact, be the one who, you know, refuses to go along. Don't be Peter. Don't be all the disciples who supposedly loved him so much but ran off at the first sign of trouble with only, like, a few women who actually stayed behind, like, at the foot of the cross, right? Like, don't be that. And again, like, they realized that later, you know, later on that they all got martyred because they kind of realized that, like, oh, we made a mistake there. We needed to stand up for him then. And now, you know, as this story is getting sort of told in a way of this heretic and criminal was justly executed, we need to go stand for him now. And if that means that we're going to die with him, then that's like, the ultimate act of holiness for us. And it's the ultimate example. And all of us in, like, our, you know, the smaller context of our own lives, like, you're not going to get stoned to death. You might get, you know, you might get outcast. You might get made fun of. That's martyrdom.
- [105:21]
Duncan Trussell
You're gonna lose. Twitter followers.
- [105:23]
Darrell Cooper
Oh, they've all. They've heard all this before.
- [105:25]
Duncan Trussell
Not you. I mean, anyone who does this. Thank you. That was an incredible podcast. Thank you so much. And thanks. Martyr Maid podcast. Anything else you want me to plug?
- [105:36]
Darrell Cooper
No, I don't. I get uncomfortable with that stuff. Not very good at self promotion.
- [105:40]
Duncan Trussell
All the links you need. It's the best podcast. I'm telling you guys have to listen to this. It's the most incredible podcast, as you can tell. Thank you for being on the show.
- [105:47]
Darrell Cooper
I love that. Thank you.
- [105:49]
Duncan Trussell
That was Darrell Cooper, everybody. Martyrmaid podcast. Subscribe and don't forget to come see me in Denver April 19th. You can find all my comedy dates@duncantrustle.com and as always, if you want commercial free episodes of this podcast, just become. What is it? A subscriber. Become a subscriber and you will get commercial free episodes. If you're listening to the podcast, go to patreon.com dtfh and you can get commercial free episodes there. I gotta go. Bye.
- [106:20]
C
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Spring is in full swing, which means it's time for spring cleaning. Don't worry. We've got everything you need to stock up on spring cleaning essentials. Because a clean home is a happy home. Shop in store or online for spring cleaning favorites like Method All Purpose Cleaner, Swiffer Heavy Duty Mopping Cloths, Lysol Bathroom Cleaner, Scotch Brite Sponges, and Clorox Disinfecting Wipes and Save. Offer ends April 22. Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.