A (4:37)

Yeah. So if we take that don't know mind approach, how does that actually work in real life? Yeah. Just help us understand how you can apply that type of mindset to an exciting event.

B (4:51)

Well, when you are planning for your own wedding, I'm sure you have some idea how it should go. However, if you can just apply don't know mine, even if some things are not going like the way imagined, maybe the cake wasn't exactly the way you wanted, or the way people interact, or the speech that other your relatives or your best friends were making didn't quite gel well. But you still remain this idea of don't know mind. And in this mind of not knowing, you can relax rather than tightly trying to control everything. And then everything have to go the way I want it. And screaming like a little kid if it doesn't, that's not going to make you happy. I think there is openness and new possibility when I have don't know mine and we can also relax.

A (5:55)

Yeah, that wedding example is actually so good because I know many people who have got mega stressed about their weddings. And I understand it. I kind of, I'm not judging it, I'm just observing it. And sometimes we'll literally get stressed over. The tablecloth isn't the right color.

B (6:18)

Right.

A (6:18)

The napkins are not exactly how I had imagined them. And then if we go back to what we were talking about before, which is about who are we? You know, it's that space where thought ends. It's about the non identification with things. Right. Not being so Attached to things. You kind of really see it in that moment, don't you, whereby people grow up with an idea that my wedding day has to be this way. I don't know if it's the same in Korea or not, but here in the uk, I think many people grow up with the idea that this is how my wedding's going to be, this is what it's going to look like, this is the dress, this is how we're going to arrive. And hey, listen, we've all got desires and things that we would like to happen in certain ways. I guess you're saying the problem is if you are dependent on that, if your happiness is conditional on those things happening, you put yourself in a very, very weak position, don't you?

B (7:21)

Yes. Rather than trying to control everything, can you relax and actually enjoy? Things may go not exactly you had planned, but it doesn't mean that that experience is not going to be unhappy. It can be just as wonderful, unexpected, but still very wonderful. When we love something or someone, we do bring this don't know mind, that is, we don't know if this person likes this type of food or that kind of color, what kind of music this person likes. When you are first dating, then there is moment of wanting to know more because you are bringing this. I don't know yet. There is a genuine sense of curiosity. But after being together for a couple of years or 10 years, if you stop having don't know mine, that is, I know everything there is to know about this person, you know, I know everything there is to know about my own child, you know, then what you do is instead of listening, you would just end up, you know, prescribing. You are supposed to do this, you are supposed to do that. You know, you are just keep on nagging them as opposed to really trying to understand what's happening to them. So I think another word for love is don't know mine.

A (8:56)

Yeah, that may well be the number one problem with most relationships that we stop being curious. We change our mindset from when we were dating when, as you say, we were looking to discover, to learn, to find out. But over time, I don't know if you'd call it laziness, but this kind of inertia can almost slip in where we make assumptions about our partner. We think that they're doing things because that's the way they've always done things, and we expect them to behave in a certain way. I have this little exercise that I often do with my wife called Starting with zero.

B (9:41)

Oh, wow. What is that?

A (9:43)

And the idea is basically, well, the big idea is that our past often haunts our present day relationships.

B (9:52)

Absolutely.

A (9:54)

And so I think I came up with maybe a year ago, just this idea. What would happen if I interacted with Vidnav? It's my wife, as if this was the first time I'd ever met her. Even though, you know, I've been married for over 15 years. Right. What happens if I interact with her in the morning, she comes down to the kitchen, I've been up for a bit as if it was the first time. And I tell you, you know, I should honestly do it more because when I do it, the knock on effect is just profound. You're not making assumptions or judgments. You're literally taking someone for who they are in that moment. And you start to learn new things that you don't learn when you think you know it all already.

B (10:39)

That is so true. Yeah. I hope people can apply that exercise, you know, to their relationships. Whenever we think we know about something, it's all in the past, you know, we are not actually knowing anything in the present moment, you know, anything that you know is something that already happened. The present moment, you cannot think about present moment. Right. If you think about something, it is something that already happened, you know, of course. So this is the, you know, opening into your. This, you know, wonder, you know, this. If you want to have a wonder in your life. Right. Rather than assuming that you already know, you know, bring this mindset of I don't know yet, you know, let me just appreciate what's in front of me right now.

A (11:36)

I love that. That totally landed for me. Once you start thinking about it, it's already happened.

B (11:43)

Yes.

A (11:43)

You're not in the present moment anymore. That's so powerful.

B (11:48)

You cannot think about the present moment. It's simply impossible. Yeah.

A (11:54)

Okay. In terms of practical guidance for people, are you open to sharing some of your daily routine? Because I guess a lot of us would love to know and understand what it is that a monk does every day to see if we can learn something from that.

B (12:13)

There isn't any particular form that I follow. Rather, as I am carrying out my daily life, I try to see the emptiness, impermanence of the things. So whatever I experience, I can clearly see the impermanence of that experience. And when I see that, then I generally can let go very quickly.

A (12:43)

Can you share a practical example of that? Because I think what you've just said has got so many profound implications, but I'd love you to sort of maybe Help people understand a regular day to day scenario that they may come across, that they may get attached to. But you're saying actually that your skill or something you've cultivated is the ability to know that this is impermanence.

B (13:13)

Right.

A (13:14)

Any examples come to mind?

B (13:17)

Maybe you know, when you are feeling annoyed, for example, in the morning on your way to your work and you run into, you know, somebody who was very annoying, maybe in your subway or while you're driving, you know, and then after arriving at your work and you know, start maybe turning on your computer and whatnot, and realize that it is not there anymore, the annoyance not there anymore. You know what I mean?

A (13:50)

Yeah.

B (13:51)

It's simple as that. Only if you rethink about it and try to bring those memory again and again and thereby holding onto that event of annoyance, then you feel as though you are entrapped in that experience of, you know, very negative experience. However, if you can see that whatever that really was bothering you, it's not here in front of your eyes, Isn't that magical? You know, whatever that really bothered you like 10 minutes ago, it's not here anymore. It's impermanent. And your true nature is that which recognize everything as it is, not the contents of their experience.

A (14:43)

That example reminds me of one of the final sections in your new book called Discovering the True Self. I was reading that last night and I think this speaks to impermanence. You're writing about that tranquil silence, the formless silence, and how thoughts and feelings have form. But ultimately I think he said something like, when the thought finishes, that's where the silence is. And I remember last night I was just meditating and the thought came and I waited for it to end and then there was just calm until the next thought came. And the more I tuned into those little moments of calm, the greater they became. Until at some point, maybe five minutes in, there was just this really prolonged period. I can't think of any other word.

B (15:45)

Peace.

A (15:45)

Yeah, I was going to say bliss, but yeah, peace. It was just. It was beautiful. So thank you for that.

B (15:52)

Oh, thank you. You know, people often think that if there isn't anything to think about, we will get bored. And thereby we are jumping from one idea or one content one thought to another thought to another event. They don't want to just relax, they just want to constantly engage with something. But the truth is our true nature is peaceful. That is, if we can just relax and enjoy the moment when there is no more thought. And yet you are aware that there is no more thought. In this empty and transparent awareness. That's your true nature.

A (16:46)

Do you think being happy is our true nature?

B (16:50)

Yes. People often think happiness means excitement. When we are excited, then we feel happy. But if we want everlasting happiness, then excitement, you cannot sustain it for a long time. It fades, it disappears. So what we really want is some quality of peace, you know, in happiness experience, happy experience. So our true nature, I believe, is in a state of peace. And when we are not trying to go somewhere or arrive at other places. And yet you are relaxed here and now and you are content with what you already have, or you feel grateful for what you already have, then that's where the happiness arise. Lives.

A (17:50)

Talk to me about small but certain happiness. Wonderful chapter in your book. And I think it's a very simple concept that I think everyone's going to resonate with.

B (18:01)

Thank you. This is not my idea. This is an idea that many people propose. But I think it is so important. I think oftentimes people imagine that they will finally feel happy and I will be able to relax only when I achieve some monumental goals in my life. But while you are getting there, you also have to live your life. And it usually takes a long time to arrive at your goal. So I think it's important we look for what, what I would call small but certain happiness.

A (18:47)

It's just so simple. You say this for some the fragrant smell of freshly made morning coffee is a time of peace and happiness. While for others it could be the warmth of the sun on their face, the sight of spring flowers, the feel of a cozy blanket on a chilly day, or simply spending time with their dog or cat after work.

B (19:07)

So I think we have to make a decision. You know, we have to decide to appreciate our lives. We have to decide to enjoy this moment. You know, once you decided that I'm going to enjoy this moment, then it make it, you know, it makes it much easier to appreciate things. Without that intention. It's hard. You know, the life just passed, you pass us by and without really, you know, becoming aware of what we are having it. So it takes only 10 seconds. That is wait, I'm just going to actually enjoy the smell of freshly made coffee. You know, this intentions and then you pause a little bit and then you re engage with the experience. And from that moment you say, wow, this is happiness. You know, rather than searching for some, you know, big things in your life, big success to be happy. Maybe this is what I was after.

A (20:13)

Yeah, I love that. Hope you enjoyed that bite sized clip. Do spread the love by sharing this episode with your friends and family. And if you want more why not go back and listen to the original full conversation with my guest. If you enjoyed this episode, I think you will really enjoy my Bite Sized Friday email. It's called the Friday five and each week I share things that I do not share on social media. It contains five short doses of positivity, articles or books that I'm reading, quotes that I'm thinking about, exciting research I've come across and so much more. I really think you're going to love it. The goal is for it to be a small yet powerful dose of feel good. To get you ready for the weekend, you can sign up for it free of charge@drchatterjee.com Friday 5 Hope you have a wonderful weekend. Make sure you have pressed subscribe and I'll be back next week with my long form conversational Wednesday and the latest episode of Bite Science next Friday.