← Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee
Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee
How To Change The Quality Of Your Relationships At Any Age with Dr Amir Levine #646
01:53:56
What if the secret to great health, more energy and feeling happier isn’t a diet, a fitness routine or a supplement – but the quality of your relationships?
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- [00:03]
A
Hey, guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, and this is my podcast, Feel Better Live. More I think that the episode you're about to hear has the potential to shift how you think about something fundamental to all humans, how we relate to others. Now, you've probably heard of attachment styles. Maybe you've even taken an online quiz to find out your own. Well, today's guest, the psychiatrist and neuroscientist Dr. Amir Levine, wrote a landmark bestseller on this topic all the way back in 2010 called Attached. Now, with his latest book, Secure the Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life, he's moving the theory on. You see, the quality of our relationships affects how we feel emotionally, our energy levels, and even our physical health and brain structure. Our brains are wired for connection, but crucially, how they do it is not set in stone. In this conversation, Amir makes a compelling case that it doesn't matter what your attachment style is now, be it anxious, avoidant, fearful, avoidant, or secure, your brain can change at any stage or age. You can learn to create a secure life in which your relationships help you feel calm, supported and safe. And he's developed plenty of practical tools to help you do so. Dr. Levine believes that we are so much more than the products of our past. Whether you're trying to understand yourself and your loved ones better, you're navigating a difficult relationship, or you simply want to feel more secure in who you are, my hope is that this conversation leaves you feeling as hopeful and empowered as it did me. In your new book, you make the case that anyone can learn to create a secure life. So what is a secure life? And why are you so confident that we can all live one at any stage in life?
- [02:35]
B
So the idea of a secure life really comes from attachment theory. It was Mary Ainsworth who first discovered the three attachment styles, anxious, avoidant, and secure. She did an experiment called the Strange Situation Test, where you have the child come with a mother, typically a toddler, to a room full of toys. And they get so excited and start pointing at toys and playing. And then they tell the caregiver to leave the room and immediately they drop. You can watch it on YouTube. They have so many of them, they just literally just drop what they have. They don't care. They start crying, banging on the door. You'll try to interest them with a toy, they'll throw it in your face until they ask the caregiver to come back. And it's in that moment when during the reunion that she recognizes three attachment styles. Anxious, avoidant, and secure. And it all has to do with how good the bond is in helping the child regulate their emotions and affect. So in a secure child, they immediately come down, the caregiver embraces them, they immediately come down, and then they start pointing at the toys, wanting to play again. The anxious attachment, it's very hard to calm them down. They calm down for a few minutes, start crying again. So it's just, like, harder for them to use the bond to regulate their affect. And the avoidant, they either don't cry even that much or they. When the mother or the caregiver hugs them, they kind of stay limp. But inside, when you look at research, their blood pressure is through the roof, and so they kind of like, block it. But they're also not as good as utilizing the bond to regulate their affect. So then later studies discovered that we have those same attachment styles in adulthood. Hazen and Shaver first discovered that in the context of romantic relationships. So basically, we use our relationships, and now I would argue even beyond that, to regulate our affect. So if we want to create a secure life, it basically talks about how do we go about making sure that our relationships, the ones that we create, are actually good in helping us calm down and feel supported, rather than the opposite.
- [04:57]
A
It's such an interesting topic, and I guess one of the key things I got from reading your book is, is hope. There's a continuous theme of empowerment with you basically telling the reader that it doesn't matter to a degree your attachment style or what's happened in your past. It is still possible to live, you know, what you call a secure life. And you make the very strong case in the book that when we're living a secure life, we're healthier, we have better relationships. When we're sick, we have fewer symptoms, we're less susceptible to consumerism, we can navigate social media better. All of these benefits, which made me think, when we truly feel secure in who we are and that we don't have to achieve in order to be worthy, let's say, then we go around the world almost with a resilient bubble around us, you know, this whole thing that we're less susceptible to consumerism, it makes so much sense to me because advertising only works, really, or most of modern advertising only works when you feel insecure, because it's all designed to hit that Achilles heel in you. Whereas if you actually feel secure, it's like, yeah, I don't know why they're trying to sell Me that I don't need, that I don't have a hole in my heart that needs filling with that. It's very empowering, isn't it?
- [06:33]
B
Yeah, I think so. You know, once I was in the New York subway and I saw an ad saying, self help books help one person, the writer. And I looked at it and I said, that's not entirely wrong. I mean, a lot of the stuff that I write definitely helped me help my patients and help my immediate circle. And the way it came about is I wrote this book, it's called attached, 15 years ago. And when I wrote it with my childhood friend, basically I was going through a breakup at the time. And that's where I came across these attachment styles in adulthood. And we never learned about it in. I never learned about it in medical school or in my psychiatry residency. We never really used those attachment styles in learning how to do treatment and therapy with people. So it was such a revelation. And. And I remember calling my friend Rachel and like, oh, my God, this is so helpful. Because he's explained to me so much about the breakup and what went on in that relationship and the different attachment styles and how we respond in adulthood. And so we decided instead of like, you know, the way that one does when you go through a breakup and you talk about it endlessly, we decided to actually use that energy to write this book about these attachment styles. And we'd always had this running joke that he's only gonna sell one copy to the Library of Congress. Cause we just wrote it to ourselves. And then it kind of like took a life of its own. Because I guess the same concepts that helped me so much were able to translate it into something that will help others. But then people came to me in therapy and they asked me, okay, now I want to become more secure. How do I become more secure? And I didn't have an immediate answer to that. And I actually found the answer in a way that I least expected it. I'm also a molecular neuroscientist, and I studied the molecular mechanism of. Of emotional memories. And I find myself in therapy with my patients sort of veering off the usual therapeutic techniques and starting to explain to them about the brain and how the brain works. Because if you think about it, it's really. That's our motherboard. That's what dictates how we respond to things and how we. If we understand that, we can really find a way to become more secure. And I can give you a few examples of how that works. Really?
- [08:46]
A
Yeah. And so, yeah, there's a. There's a bit towards the end of the book which I really liked, which kind of resonated with the way I often view the human body and human health. You say one of the reasons that I'm drawn towards attachment science is that it's not based on the medical model of fixing pathologies, but rather on normal behavior traits that are common in everyone. The question then becomes not whether a particular trait or way of looking at things is sick or healthy, but rather is it effective or ineffective. In other words, is it working for you in your life or not? And if not, how can it be changed?
- [09:36]
B
I love that you read that sentence because it really, it rings so true and it's so important. But people are so used to looking at themselves from the medical model that now there's a whole, if you look online about adult attachment styles. It's all about. They sort of veer it back into the medical model. Heal your anxious attachment style. Heal your avoidant attachment style. But it's not a sickness having. It's a variation in the population. It's very, very important to understand it from the get go. These are variations on the norm. I think around 50 something percent are secure, which is such good news. And you'll see soon.
- [10:14]
A
So 50% of the adult population, the
- [10:16]
B
majority of population are secure. I know it's hard to believe 25% are avoidant. Around 20% are anxious and very few are fearful avoidant. So it's a variation on the norm, like I told you, like being tall or short.
- [10:31]
A
So is it genetic then? Is it something we're born with or is it, you know. Cause a lot of us would say that and I know you kind of address this towards the end of the book about causation and where it's very hard to prove where this stuff comes from or whether it was your childhood trauma that led to you having a certain attachment style. But what do you think based upon your reading of the research? Is it genetic or is it a combination of genes plus environment, particularly when we're children?
- [10:58]
B
I think not even when we're children. That's kind of like that's the case that I'm trying to make in the book. It's. We are so such deeply social creatures and really our ability to collaborate with others is our superpower as a species. I mean, if you think about it, we're not particularly strong animals. We're very vulnerable. But yet we can live in the North Pole, we can go to, we can make it to the moon all because. And we rose up, and we were not in the middle of the food chain anymore. We're kind of like the top of the food chain. We did all that because of our ability to collaborate and form really cohesive societies. So our brain is really adapt. It wouldn't make sense that we would fix that on a certain way in childhood and then remain the same through the rest of our lives. We are so much more adaptable socially than people let, like, are led to believe. And that's part of this whole message in the book. And I actually use that in order to help the people become more secure. And so in childhood, we can actually form several different models of attachment because it's not only the mother or the father that we form attachments to. And then later on in life, also attachment basically in childhood explains. It's a correlation coefficient of 0.2 to 0.3, which means that like 90. Around 95% of adult attachment cannot be explained by childhood attachment. Really? Yes. And that's what the findings show, basically.
- [12:32]
A
That really surprises me.
- [12:34]
B
It does, because it doesn't surprise me because that's the research. But people have a hard time accepting that. But I find it hopeful because it means that we are so. There's so much potential for change.
- [12:47]
A
Well, that message of hope is something I'm gonna keep reiterating because that's the big, big message I got from reading your book. And even to the degree that later on you sort of make the case that it's not always necessary to excavate our past.
- [13:05]
B
Right. So that's the point that I love about that whole cause, attachment, this whole adult attachment. The science, it doesn't come from the medical research. It comes from social psychology and also from developmental psychology. So the whole preface of what's sick or not sick is not there. But I have to say, I mean, about, like, childhood memories, there's a whole chapter in the book about causality.
- [13:29]
A
Yeah.
- [13:29]
B
And as a scientist, to establish. For scientists, causality is the holy grail. It's like they're so hard to. To sort of to discover and find. And sometimes even one molecule, you think it's doing one thing, and then you discover that it's completely. It's really, really hard to establish causality. Yet in treatment in psychology, we often say, oh, because this and this happened to you in childhood, then. Now you're this way. But I've, like. Even when you look at behaviors in mice that are all genetically identical, and let's say you expose them, like in adolescence, like in early childhood to a Bully. A part of them will become really depressed and anxious later in life and some of them will show complete resilience. You wouldn't even tell what happened to them. So it's very, very hard to establish causality.
- [14:18]
A
Yeah, that's the thing with stress though, isn't it? Right. Because if you think about it or the way I think about it,
- [14:26]
B
you
- [14:26]
A
can't really say that X or Y is a stressful event because you know, that event will be seen differently by different people.
- [14:40]
B
They process differently.
- [14:41]
A
We'll process differently. Exactly. So you know, a car crash for someone would be really, really stressful and for someone else they may not be perturbed by it at all. Right. So it wasn't necessarily the external stressor that was the issue. It was how did that person interpret that stressor.
- [15:01]
B
Yes, exactly. So the thing is, when you do recall those memories in a safe place, when you're creating a secure bond again, the change happens from the relationships in the here and now. So you're creating hopefully a secure relationship with your therapist and then you're recalling those memories and what happens is actually much more profound than making those causal inferences. You actually, when you understand like when you recall a memory, you disrupt it and basically you can rewrite that memory and remember it differently. And that's much more intense, I think, than actually oh, because this happened to me now I'm this way.
- [15:40]
A
I love that. I absolutely have experienced that myself. While you can reinterpret a past event at a different stage in your life, especially if you have this secure attachment and secure relationships around you and so you're effectively changing your past.
- [15:58]
B
Exactly that. It's so powerful, right? It's so powerful in the way I'm thinking about my own childhood and the way that I see it and the way that I interpret certain things and that's what I try to do in this secure priming therapy is help people reinterpret things differently. Not necessarily. Like there's so many examples. I think the Beckham's. Now there's, I think there was a story about like, oh, like he was so upset that he took his childhood photos and they monetized it. But I mean, going back in time maybe, I mean, I don't know if I should get into that because it may upset some people. But the way that I think about it, I mean at the time, I don't know what their exact motivation was, but maybe it was they were really so happy to have a child and they wanted to sort of, they wanted to show it to the world. And they wanted to create the narrative rather than let someone else create the narrative for them.
- [16:52]
A
Yeah. And for context, because I don't know when we're going to put this episode out. What Dr. Levine is talking about is literally, in the past 24 hours, a story has broken with Brooklyn Beckham, where he has announced on social media some of his frustrations with the way he's been brought up. Okay. It may be that over the next few weeks, more things become clear or whatever, but I guess it was a bit like the Prince Harry situation with the Royal family. No one really knows the reality from the outside. You know, people love to comment on this stuff, but the reality is, it's like we don't know what actually happens. All we know about, let's say, the Beckhams is what is portrayed about the Beckhams in the media. What we know about the royal family is what was portrayed about the royal family in the media. Doesn't mean it's true. And not only does it not mean it's true, we also don't know how different people are going to interpret that. Right. So some people are saying he's a spoiled brat at the moment. Brooklyn.
- [17:52]
B
Right.
- [17:53]
A
I think it's really harsh to be judging people like this without knowing what's going on. You don't know that.
- [18:00]
B
I agree.
- [18:01]
A
Both sides could be right. The parents could be right. And he could also have real reasons why he's frustrated. Do you know what I mean? There's multiple interpretations of the same situation.
- [18:10]
B
Right? Exactly. And not only that, I mean, he might be frustrated because of a certain point of view, but that's the nice thing about that secure attachment, that you can entertain different things in slightly different angles and see it, like, a little bit differently, and then all of a sudden, it gives you a reprieve. I'll give you a quick example, a very simple example. I was going to cross. I was, like, with my partner, and we were going to cross the street, and the woman, a woman was driving a car, and she sped up. She didn't slow down. She sped up and passed us. And I'm like. And I told him, did you see that? She didn't even slow down for us. And he said, well, I think she actually is probably sped up so we can cross the street faster. So it kind of shows you, like, we are both standing there and, like, a different perspective. Exactly. His is a more secure perspective. And so for me to be next to that and we can alternate, sometimes I have their secure perspective, and sometimes he does, but to get that input in the moment. And that's what the secure priming therapy does a lot, is trying to sort of find the secure perspective on things. And I find it in my own life to be hugely helpful.
- [19:20]
A
I want to get into these four different attachment styles. Okay. Because I'm sure everyone listening, if they don't already know, would like to start to get that vision of, okay, well, which one of these four stars am I right? Before we do that, though, Amir, a couple of things I just want to comment on, which was quite eye opening for me when reading your book. Firstly, and you've touched on this in the conversation already, that these attachment styles can change. Right. So there was. And maybe this bit really resonated with me because, you know, my kids are teenagers at the moment, but you literally talk about there's this childhood attachment style, and then in teenage years, when they're more interested, let's say, in what their peers think than their parents, their attachment style can change. And you're also making the case that, you know, how we attach as adults can be different from children. So that's quite interesting to me that these things can change throughout life. Related to that, I wanted to make another point in the sort of part two of the book where you go in to these attachment styles in detail and you have certain questionnaires to fill out to help us understand what we are. It was very clear to me that if I was answering those questions ten years ago, I would answer them differently. So I think at the start of that section, you say that one of the questions the researchers often ask people is, you've been away for a business trip, you have just landed, and you're about to come home, and you put on your phone and you see a text message from your significant other half saying, what was it?
- [21:09]
B
Call me, we need to talk.
- [21:10]
A
Call me, we need to talk. Yeah, right. I think it's a great one. I know for a fact. Well, not for a fact. Okay. But I imagine that 10 years ago, if I received a text like that, I would immediately think, I don't know, have I done something wrong? Or is there something bad I'm about to hear? Or do you know what I mean? That's where I would have gone to. I don't really think I'd go there anymore. But I've done quite a lot of internal excavation. I've done a form of therapy called internal family systems many years ago. I feel like a lot of these insecurities that I may have had early on in Life that I have put down to my childhood, rightly or wrongly. Okay. I feel that that empowered me to then go and change them. So I'm putting quite a lot at you, Amir, But I've really thought about this deeply, this idea that these things can change throughout our life, but also that we can change our own attachment styles perhaps, or maybe different flavors of those attachment styles depending on what we do and what we surround ourselves with. So I don't know, help me make sense of it all, please.
- [22:27]
B
Yes, definitely. So I'll start by just like explaining a little bit about the four attachment styles. So we'll get that out of the way. And then I love the way that you've talked about your own transformation because it's so helpful. So the way that it works out, there's these four attachment styles. Anxious, avoidant, secure and fearful avoidant. And it's on two dimensions, really. It all has to do with how comfortable you feel with intimacy and closeness. But then also, on the other hand, how sensitive of a radar do you have for potential threat in a relationship? So if you love closeness a lot, but you also are very like you, like something like that would set you off, like a simple sentence. Or like they have on TikTok, they have this thing when they say me and my current husband, and then all of a sudden the other person's like, what do you mean current? But you can see on TikTok, some of them smile, some. Some of them get really upset, some of them leave the room. So if you have a very sensitive radar for potential threat in their relationship, where are they going? Are they gonna break up with me? Then you love closeness. Then you have more of an anxious attachment style. You have a sensitivity to potential problems.
- [23:39]
A
Yeah, you say. I mean, I kept reading this, actually, you say the anxiety dimension when it comes to attachment styles assesses the extent to which individuals worry about being abandoned or unloved. High scores on this dimension indicate a high level of attachment related anxiety characterized by a fear of rejection and a frequent need for reassurance. Now, I know you're saying we can't prove stuff from childhood makes a difference here, but with the understanding that we all interpret stresses differently. If, when you were a young child, I don't know, your mum went away suddenly and you didn't know where she was, or your parents got divorced and it wasn't very pleasant, it seems reasonable that if that didn't go particularly well for you, then you might have this worry about being abandoned or unloved.
- [24:38]
B
Okay, so I'm going to reply to this in a way that probably you wouldn't expect. Foreign.
- [24:50]
A
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- [28:53]
B
Okay, so I'm going to reply to this in a way that probably you wouldn't expect. And I didn't expect it either. And I was blown away when I read it in their research. And I really go into depth about it in the chapter about the anxious attachment. So what I've discovered in the research, because I think some of the research, the way that they present some of the findings is also biased. But when you really look at the findings, what you see is not necessarily someone who's so worried about abandonment. And it's just like people who have like a sixth sense for picking up stuff from the environment. Like there is one like not just danger, but also danger, but a lot of different things. It's just like people who have a more sensitivity to picking up stuff. So for example, there was one study where they had like on a group level when they had like a group of people in a room and they had like smoke start to come out from, from a computer. And the people with the anxious attachment were the first to identify the danger. And interestingly enough, the avoidants were the first out the door. So you have a segment of the population that is very, that can pick up cues from the surroundings that others can't.
- [30:08]
A
So it's a superpower.
- [30:10]
B
It is in a way a superpower. You just can see things that other can't see. They notice even little things, little shifts.
- [30:16]
A
So maybe we have a bias. There's an inherent bias in how we self report ourselves, right? Because if we're wired that way, we can then look back on our childhood and say, yeah, this is what happened when I was a kid. That's why I'm like this. But it may not be that, it may be that we've already like that. And, and so when that situation happened, we were more sensitive to it and
- [30:41]
B
also think about how much more challenging it is to raise a child that has these high levels of sensitivity. There's a whole area of research in children about that. Some kids are more like orchids. They're very sensitive. But they can bloom beautifully. And other kids are more like dandelions. They can go anywhere. They're not that sensitive to the environment. They're not like they can really thrive anywhere. But if you give the right environment for the orchids, they actually outperform the dandelions. So if you just look at the vulnerability or the potential liability of it, you're missing a huge part of the picture. And that's a big. What I'm trying. That's the point that I'm trying to make. In the book, I even gave you an example. It's like, it's a mind blowing example because I was looking for a good example to give about this woman who adopted a girl. And then she went to school with her and one day and she noticed another girl came to her and they started playing and she stopped, froze all of a sudden said something. I think this other girl is my daughter's sister.
- [31:50]
A
Biological sister, yes.
- [31:52]
B
She saw something in their facial expression. She even said they didn't. They had different eye color. But it was something about their facial expression that they looked. They looked the same to me. And she turned around and told everyone, I think she's her sister. And no one believed her.
- [32:04]
A
No one believes it. Yeah.
- [32:05]
B
And she went into. And she researched it and she was her sister. So what an amazing. So here's an example where there's no danger, but you can actually see things that other people can see. And now it's been years now, like from the story, from what I read, they're inseparable.
- [32:23]
A
I guess what I'm getting from you is you're saying that. Look, and please correct me if I've got this wrong, but it seems to me as what you're saying is, understand your attachment style, find out which one of these four categories you fall into, and then ask yourself, is this working for you? If it is working for you in the way your life is currently set up, whether that be your work or your partner or whatever, it might be great, you know, you just keep going. But if you find that your attachment style is in conflict with maybe some of the things in your life, and maybe that's why you don't speak up at work, that's why you're having frequent arguments with your partner, maybe the tools in this book can help you not get rid of it, but learn to work with it so that you can have a happier and healthier life, is that a fair way to look at it?
- [33:28]
B
Yes, I definitely agree. I think it's. But when you work with it, you Change it. That's the idea. But that ability to see things actually is not a bad. I mean, that's something that serves you. You don't want to get rid of it entirely. And it's like people like, I remember, it's like the orchid idea. They can outperform the dandelion.
- [33:48]
A
Could you say, I don't know, let's say you're a footballer, right? Or what you guys would call soccer, right? Let's say you're playing football and I don't know, you're really bad with your left foot, right? But you're exceptional with your right foot. You can learn, or the team can put you in a position and you can learn certain moves and certain runs where actually it's very unlikely you'll ever need your left foot. So in some ways you can say, yeah, well, you could work on your left foot and make that stronger. Or you could go, yeah, I could do. But I can also play the game, which reduces the likelihood that I'm ever gonna need my left foot.
- [34:33]
B
That's a great example, and I'll tell you why. It's not that I'm never gonna need my left foot. It's like learning to use. And that's what secures are so good at. Learning to use others to help bring out the best in you and learning to lean on others. And that's what avoidants are not good at. Remember that strange situation test? They stay limp. They can't really use their mother. They're like, oh, I'm going to regulate my own feelings. But actually they really have a hard time. What you're describing is, how can I utilize others so they'll cover that side and I can actually use this side to sort of get a win for my team. And that is also goes into the whole latter part of the book, which I actually love, because a lot of the sort of secure priming therapy is kind of like a therapeutic modality I invented because as a neuroscientist, this is the kind of therapy I would have wanted to get, but it didn't exist. So I kind of had to come up with something. But he talks about these hidden sparks of talent, about discovering what your hidden spark of talent is. And oftentimes, for people who have insecure attachment and especially anxious, their hidden spark of talent oftentimes they perceive as an impediment. So the example that you'll get is like, oh, my left foot is really weak. And my, like, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? It's like, whoa. But wait a second. If you shift your perspective a little bit and think about your right foot, you can get so you can get so much more. And that whole big part of secure priming therapy is uncovering those hidden sparks of talent and finding like. Yeah, I can give you an example. Give example, please. Yeah, I have a patient who constantly is like thinking about himself and how like, is he this diagnosis or that diagnosis. And he really has like a very strong drive so to uncover the truth and really look into the details. So if he uses it sometimes to self scrutinize himself, that is not helpful. That does not work for him. It's not effective. But when he uses it at work to really go down into the details of certain business proposals and finding out, like analyzing stuff, like, he excels, he does so well there. So it's the same talent, but how do you position it?
- [36:50]
A
Yeah, we've covered the anxiety dimension. Okay. So people can perhaps, as they hear that, and there are questionnaires in the book, if people actually want to do it and actually figure out who they are.
- [37:02]
B
Right. And you also mentioned that there are specific tools and we should get into that. But we'll maybe talk about the avoidance and then we can talk about the tools because I came up with exactly those tools to help people with insecure attachment styles find their way towards security.
- [37:16]
A
Yeah, I definitely want to talk about this tool. So this anxiety dimension that you've covered, it assesses the extent to which individuals worry about being abandoned or unloved. And then you contrast that when you say the avoidance dimension, on the other hand, measures the degree to which individuals are uncomfortable with closeness and intimacy. Could you just explain that in a bit more detail?
- [37:41]
B
So for avoidance, it's all about not feeling too comfortable with too much closeness. They just don't like a lot of closeness.
- [37:49]
A
Why not?
- [37:50]
B
So this is where you know, as a scientist to answer the why is a very difficult answer. But if you look online on TikTok, they will say, oh, they immediately sort of give that explanation. But it has never, I mean, to the best of my knowledge, and I looked into it a lot, like that's never been proven. And actually we really have to be careful. This history of psychology, we've attributed so much stuff to, I don't know, like this whole term refrigerator mother. When we actually told about kids with autism, it's because they had really cold mothers. There's this schizophrenic mother who now, if she wasn't too cold, but she was hot and cold and that caused schizophrenia and their children. We have this whole, there was this whole thing about what causes people to be gay, like, I don't know, distant fathers all. There's all this causality that's went around for years and it was all proven to be completely false. And it's also very, very hard to make those studies to actually prove that. And actually I'm very, I'm skeptical. And here where it comes to this whole thing, when you understand the brain from a neuroscience perspective and how the brain changes, it's. Unless there's like this huge genetic defect that really overdrives everything. It's always a combination of certain behavioral programs in the mother and the father, but then also what happens in utero, what happens in the first year of life, your genetic component, how it interacts together. It's never one thing or another. It's always a sort of a gene environment interaction. So I find for people who are avoidant that, and if you look at it throughout the whole evolution, that some animals have more, are like, are programmed to like distance and some animals are programmed to feel more comfortable with closeness. And I give that example of C. Elegans, which is a tiny microscopic worm that neuroscientists love because it has these huge neurons. And in C. Elegance you have, you have social feeders and you have isolated feeders and they eat E. Coli. So you put a little bit of E. Coli and you see like a big lump of worms they're voraciously eating. But then there's the solitary eaters. And if one of the social one swims in its direction, crawls in its direction, it'll go away. It's chemotactically repelled by the other ones, whereas the other ones are completely aggregate and they attract each other and, and it's a product of a single gene mutation. And you can switch the social to solitary feeders and back and forth by a single point mutation. And so you have this genetic baseline and that gene also, it actually also exists in humans, but I don't think in humans. There's no one single gene that will dictate the preference for closeness and distance. But if you look around you, that preference of closeness and distance exists. It exists in our pets. Some dogs like more closeness and some less. Some cats love closeness, despite what people may think. So it exists everywhere.
- [41:08]
A
I guess it really makes sense if we look at this through an evolutionary lens. Right, where we need different traits in the population. Right, Exactly. You're saying the anxiety dimension, these people can be hyper vigilant sometimes Right. And pick up on stuff. Super sensitive. And you say the. The avoidant people are characterized by a strong desire for independence and a discomfort with relying on others. Well, you can kind of think about us as hunter gatherers and go, well, both of those traits are gonna be useful for the tribe, you know, hugely useful. You want some people to be mega independent and not be as reliant on others and maybe they're gonna take risks and, I don't know, go and hunt and take risks but get a big feed for the tribe. Whereas you might also want people who are hyper vigilant and can pick stuff up that others are maybe totally chilled about. So, yeah, I guess in many ways it sort of fits with this idea that we need different traits within a population. So again, just bringing it back to these four attachment styles. One of them is secure, three of them are insecure. And under that insecure umbrella, one is anxious, one is avoidant. You've covered those. And what is that third insecure one of fearful avoidant. Is it a bit of both? Basically it is a bit of both.
- [42:28]
B
But if I go back for the avoidant, so you're right, there is an advantage. And it's not just the hunters gatherers. Even. Like in that example that I gave you with the smoke coming out, the anxious were the first one to identify it and the avoidance were the first out the door. So we're like, I don't even care what, like who is around me, I'm out of here. Like, they just like they can. And in a work situation, oftentimes they can. They work really well by themselves. They don't really need a lot of input from others. And you can see how that can be very advantageous in certain circumstances when you need someone to just kind of like take charge, make decision, and not sort of lean for help from others. So it's still in our. Even today is very, very helpful to have these variations in the population. The fearful avoidant, I think Macy's the more painful attachment style. They're the ones. At least the research shows that it's really hard for them to get along in relationships because they have a little bit of both and it's like very needy. It's not necessarily. Well, it's not necessarily that they're very needy. And you know, actually from an attachment perspective, that's a line I was like, we like to say that you're only as needy as your unmet needs because when your needs are met, this whole thing about relationships, it's a safety mechanism that's how we feel safe in the world. It's a very. It's like a radar. It's not so much about having multiple conversations. It's like knowing that the person is there so we can go out into the world and do our things. From the point of view of the brains, relationships are like a working unit. It really is meant to help us, give us the space to do things. So good relationships actually are relationships that we barely think about, that we know that they're there in the background. And it gives us the opportunity to sort of take off and do everything what we want to do. You can see that in the strange situation test where the mother is there, there's a room full of toys. Like, the child doesn't even care that she's there. It's like, oh, my God, I want to explore all these things. Every once in a while, it looks back to see where is she? To kind of get the secure base. That's how we feel safe in the world. But then it's really tied to exploration. So secure attachment really helps you with the exploration. And it's a system that we have in our brain all the time. Even now, as we speak, you have an idea where your loved ones are and that they're okay. And if. God forbid, and I even had saying that, because if you know all of a sudden that something bad happened where your loved one is. There was an earthquake, There was something that happened. I don't know, something in the school. I don't even want to say it because it's too much to even say it. You wouldn't be able to continue to have this conversation with me. You'd have to stop and you have to make sure that they're okay again. And then you'll be able to come back, albeit a little bit rattled, and continue. So we have this. That's how we feel safe. We have this knowledge where our loved ones are and that they're basically pretty much okay. And we can continue with our life. Because when this. You have to remember we're not the descendants of eagles or elephants or lions. We are descendants of animals that were in the middle of the food chain. So our brain speaks to us differently. Our brain needs those others sort of that the knowledge of others around us to feel safe. Because money, credit cards, condos, cars, all those things didn't exist when our emotional brain evolved. It evolved when the people around us were the one who protected us and helped us. Just by having you here, if we were attacked, it reduces my chances of becoming prey by 50%. Right. Because they're gonna pick you up or they're gonna pick me. And so that's a huge reduction in risk when you're an animal in the middle of the food chain. So the fearful avoidant, they don't know how to feel safe in a relationship, but they want a relationship. Whereas the regular avoidant, it's like, oh, I don't need a relationship. I can do it on my own. The fearful avoidant, I want a relationship. But they always feel like closeness is too much. So they don't really know how to get close and also. And make it work, but they want it. Whereas anxious, they really, really want a relationship. And if you come and you're close to them and you're secure, they don't really see a lot of danger and they're happy as can be. But with fearful avoidant, when you become too close, they don't feel comfortable. So they have to sort of find a very delicate balance between. It's almost like walking on a tightrope. One side of the anxiety, one side of the avoidance, and you have to find the del, like, with patience to teach them how to find that very delicate balance of walking on that tightrope, something that feels comfortable for them.
- [47:23]
A
Yeah. And I think one of the really great things about part three of your book is that there are all of these tools for people. So it doesn't matter where you are. Even if you're fearful avoidant, there are still things you can do to give your brain that sense of security which is so important. But relating to what you just said, it's that you really understood the importance of us as a social species when you were on a safari in Africa.
- [47:54]
B
I'm glad that you brought it back to the safari trip because that's when really when I really finally understood, oh, this is what our brain. This is how our brain speaks to us. I mean, we were there, and most of the time you go on this, like, they drive you around and you see the animals, and that's amazing and fascinating. But then on one occasion, they took us out with the other car just to walk around in the safari where all the animals are.
- [48:21]
A
So you're walking in the African outback, basically.
- [48:23]
B
Yes, basically.
- [48:24]
A
No car.
- [48:25]
B
No car. But we did have two of the guards. One. And so they told us to go walk in a single file. And we had, like, one person in the back with a rifle and one person in the front with a rifle. And they told us that at no given moment to open a gap between us and to just make sure that we're all walking in a single file and in an aggregated way. And if someone stalled a little bit and there's a little bit of gap opened up, the guy in the back would cry, close the gap, Close the gap. And we were very mindful of what was going on because we were just there.
- [48:57]
A
Were you scared?
- [48:59]
B
I was definitely more vigilant, for sure.
- [49:03]
A
And so you're basically walking around and you know you could come across lions. Yes, of course, or elephants or the
- [49:10]
B
big snakes, I don't remember what they're called.
- [49:12]
A
So you've got to be careful. And he's asking you to stay close.
- [49:17]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [49:17]
A
To explain why to stay close.
- [49:20]
B
So the thing is, and that's what you also see in the wild when you watch all of those nature shows, right? And that's what they often talk about. It's like to stay close to the herd. Because usually the ones that stay apart that are not in the center of the herd, those are the ones that get picked off. So they go for the one who is apart from the crowd. And we all. Our brain computes that and our brains of our pets also compute that. And that actually relates to. That's when I understood what I call the cyborg effect in the book, which is based on the Cyberbull experiment, which I find it to be so brilliant. The person who did it, Kip Williams, did it when he like the way that he thought about that idea when he was walking in a park and like a Frisbee was like, came sailing in his direction. These two guys were playing Frisbee and he picked it up and he threw it back at them and they started including him in the game. And then just as they started, all of a sudden stopped. And he said he remember feeling surprisingly bad about like all of a sudden being excluded from the game. Even though he didn't know these people, he knew that eventually he was going to stop. And then he went on and designed this experiment, it's called the stoppable experiment, where you are like in a video game, very rudimentary video game, and you play a game of catch with two other figures and all of a sudden they stop throwing the ball in your direction and they play between them. And what they find is two things. There's like the brain effect and the psychological effect. The brain effect is that they saw areas in the brain that are related to pain, distress and self scrutiny really got activated in the brain. And then also the other thing that they found was that it decreases the feeling well, maybe I'll start with that because that's really important. And then I'll tell you, because another thing that. So another thing that they found was that it's very hard to mitigate that effect. So let's say I'm going to give you money and maybe whenever you're excluded, I'm going to give you money. So would that take away from that effect on the brain? No, they find that no, money doesn't help. They even went as far as telling minority people that the other two members, the other two players are members of the kkk. So like, even if, like despicable people, are you playing with despicable people? What do you care if they're going to include you or not? No. Still, it has a similar effect. So it's a very, it's almost like a knee jerk reaction.
- [51:53]
A
When I first read about the cyberwall effects in that chapter, I thought, okay, kind of makes sense. But when, when you went to these two further examples, which is, well, if you're given money to sort of mitigate for you being excluded makes no difference. No, if they're part of the Ku Klux Klan, as you say, it doesn't matter. And what does that tell us? I mean, what it told me was that on a deep, deep, deep, primal level, we're wired for connection. And if we feel we're being ignored or excluded, it does something very powerful. Yeah. What did you write? You wrote this. The human brain has been programmed through evolution to experience exclusion as on par with physical pain. And I think in a separate chapter in your book, you were talking about this idea that being ignored is no less harmful, or ignoring someone is no less harmful than lashing out or even like hitting someone.
- [52:58]
B
Because if it's on par with, it's like, yeah, I mean, it's very painful,
- [53:02]
A
but that's very provocative. Is it? Cause we would think, you know, maybe this goes to the other thing you write about in that chat. Are still facing this idea that, I don't know if you're having an argument, let's say, or a disagreement with a friend or a partner, if you were, if you're shouting at them, we would understand that it's not very nice to lash out at someone. But I guess you're making the case, I think, that if you just go silent and don't engage and ignore, that is as harmful as well. Today's episode is sponsored. By the way, have you tried to meditate before? Perhaps you've heard about some of the benefits, like reducing stress and increased focus and you've given it a go and thought it's not the practice for you. Well, I believe that may well be because you have not yet tried the right approach. You see, the Way is the only meditation app with a single long term pathway. You're not forced to make loads of choices each day. Instead, you're guided on an enjoyable and progressive journey that deepens your practice step by step. Now, I've been using this app for many months now and I absolutely love it. In fact, I I love this app so much that I recently decided to invest in the company and join them in their mission to get more people meditating. Since I partnered with the Way, I have had so much positive feedback. One listener said, Dr. Chatterjee, I came to the Way through your podcast. I've tried other meditation apps with limited success and likes the idea of following a single guided path. I'm nearly two months in now and loving it. Henry's gentle and concise approach is very calming and the Way is now a regular part of my morning routine. That's the sentiment that many people report when they start meditating with the Way. And for listeners of my show, the way is offering 30 free sessions to help you establish your meditation practice. All you have to do is go to thewayapp.com livemore to get started. Today's episode is sponsored by AG1, a daily health drink that has been in my own life for over seven years now. This is the time of year when our immune systems are under the most pressure. Between spending more time indoors, travel and seasonal bugs, it's natural to look for extra ways to support our immune defenses. But most people don't want to juggle multiple pills. They want something simple, effective and easy to stick with. AG1 is a daily health drink that provides key immunity, supporting nutrients, vitamin C, vitamin A, zinc and selenium, all of which contribute to the normal function of the immune system. These nutrients are included in highly bioavailable forms, meaning they are much easier for the body to absorb and use. Backed by clinical research, expert formulation and continuous improvement, AG1 has been in my own life for around 7 years now and each batch is independently tested for quality and safety. That's how they guarantee what's in your scoop and what's not. And the best thing, of course, is that all this goodness comes in one convenient, tasty daily serving for a limited time only. Get a free AG1 flavor sampler and AGZ sampler to try all the flavors, plus free vitamin D3 and K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's $87 in free gifts for first time subscribers. See all details@drinkag1.com LiveMore.
- [57:16]
B
It's an incredibly aggressive act. And so basically the still face experiment is when like what they did was they took mothers and again with those poor infants, they subject them to all these things and actually you can watch it in YouTube and it is actually, I have to say it is painful to watch because they come into the room, they sort of gag at each other and they're smiling and they're really having a nice time. And then they tell the mother, look away and then look back. And no facial expression, just keep a blank face. Brutal. And the baby initially is like laughing, smiling, trying to get the mothers. Because we have, even now when you're sitting and talking, we have an emotional rapport of like Fischl. We're meeting like we are. We have an. We have a connection. But then she stops it all of a sudden. And then when they see they can't get her attention very quickly, they go into much more desperate measures and it ends up by them screaming, shrieking and starting really to cry. And then they tell her, and that's the hard part. And then they tell her to okay. And then the baby comes down very quickly. But it just shows you. It's almost like there's a tug, there's this emotional thing, a thread that connects people. And when you cut off that thread, that is very, very. It's a very aggressive act. And when you talk to. And people don't think about it this way. And especially people who are avoidant and when you teach them in therapy, it's like, well, when you do that, you're like the mother who leaves the room in the strange situation test. Or you're like the mother who creates that still face experiment. You're doing it in real time. And then they understand it. And then they can't just say. Cause usually they would say, what do you want from me? I'm not saying anything, I'm not doing anything. And it's like. And the other person, it's like that baby that starts to scream and yell and they're like the ones that are. And then they often go and say, oh, you know, because in childhood this. And this happened to me. So I have fear of abandonment. Where in fact what's happening in the here and now is the brain causes you. The brain to react to. It's not necessarily related to your childhood. It's what's happening here.
- [59:17]
A
It reminds me of something Gabor Matti said to me many, many years ago. I think I've had four conversations with him on this podcast up to this point. But I think in conversation number one that probably took place in around 2018 or 2019, I think he was, was sharing with me that trauma to a child is not only when bad things happen to the child, it's also when not enough good things happen. It kind of works both ways. And it's. It kind of makes me sort of think about what we're talking about here, which is we get that lashing out at someone is traumatic. That's a bad thing that's happening. But you know, ignoring someone, it's not quite the same thing. But you know, if you're ignoring someone, you might think, well, it's okay, at least I'm not shouting at them and lashing out at them. But I guess you're withdrawing love, you're withdrawing social connection, which is just as harmful. I guess, at least in many ways, you could argue it's just as harmful. Right?
- [60:22]
B
Well, it's even, so what happens? So here's the thing.
- [60:26]
A
Or is it more harmful?
- [60:27]
B
Well, when you understand the language of attachment, so then sometimes what happens is that because you're ignoring them, basically, you then sometimes then they engage in what we call protest behavior. And so protest behavior is a very specific term in attachment science. And what happens is when you feel that the other person is not available, you'll engage in any sort of behavior to re establish that availability. And because it's such a rudimentary system, the attachment system, and because it's really about really survival and safety, oftentimes we end up, and that's. We end up acting and doing things that we feel, what is going on? Why am I doing this? I don't want to scream like that. I don't want to do this. But it's so much stronger and more primitive and more foundational than what we can control. It's about our survival. And that's why oftentimes, and I think that's why people find a lot of solace and empowerment in attachment, is to understand you're not crazy. Because a lot of people can be hugely very functional, very good, like amazing in their work. And then when it comes to relationships, they just fall apart and they don't understand why. But if you work on that and you teach, it's really about the emotional rapport between two people and it's again, remember I told you it's a working unit and the function of secure relationships is to help regulate each other's emotions. So it is both of our responsibility to make sure that the other person is calm. We are highly social species, and so when something bad happens to us, and I'm sure we have an attachment hierarchy in our brain, and I know, I'm sure if something bad were to happen to you, you know exactly which was the number one person you're going to go to. And oftentimes if they say something, if you're securely attached to them, even a few words, a hug can immediately make you feel better. There's no Xanax or Klonopin in the world that can have such a powerful effect because we're such deeply social species that it can really have such a profound effect. But the other side of it is that so secure attachment is one of the most powerful regulators of affect of emotions. But there's another side to the coin, that insecure attachments can be one of the most powerful instigators of emotional distress. Right. If they don't say, if they withdraw or if they do like, it can cause huge emotional distress. So if you think about it, attachment is really the basis of both suffering and healing from suffering.
- [63:06]
A
Yeah. Good quality relationships can be the best way to relieve stress. And pour. Unhealthy relationships can be the biggest source of stress.
- [63:16]
B
Exactly, exactly.
- [63:17]
A
Kind of works both ways, doesn't it?
- [63:19]
B
Yes. And not just talking about the relationships that we have with our partner. I'm talking about the relationships that we have with our healthcare providers. There's one study there about people with fibromyalgia where there's a chronic pain, and when they have good relationships and they're insecure, they oftentimes have better relationships with their healthcare providers and. And the outcomes are better. So it has such a profound effect on our brain. So that's why I wouldn't. I don't even usually think what is worse, the yelling or the withdrawing. Both are really bad. Both are bad.
- [63:51]
A
Yeah, both are.
- [63:52]
B
Because both don't serve the purpose of regulating each other's emotions. And that's why I have like that tool. One of the tools in the book is like, when I have this rule that helps people when they're fighting. It's like, if you understand the function of relationships, then I often say that only one person is allowed to be upset at a time, and the first person who's upset, that's him. And the role of the other person needs to help them calm down. You can't. It doesn't make sense from an attachment perspective. For both of you to be upset at the same time. So what happens with couples is usually when they get into a fight and then like one of them stops and they say, wait, wait, wait a second, I was upset first, it's my turn. You can't be upset. And then they start laughing about it or really calls to their attention. Wait, remember what the function, what we're trying to do here, we are kind of like off the mark. And if that doesn't work, then I have a second rule.
- [64:42]
A
Is that the mea culpa rule?
- [64:44]
B
That's the mea culpa rule.
- [64:45]
A
Can you explain that one?
- [64:46]
B
Yes. So that rule basically says if you're not able to take turns, and I have to say, it is hard to take turns because what happens when we are attached to someone? Like, people say, you know about this whole codependency, you have to sort of really separate yourselves from others. That's all really nice and clean, Sounds really wonderful. But that's not our physiology. When we get attached to someone, our physiology merges and they really, you can see it on certain studies they have your heart rate is controlled by your partners, your breathing. They even have some studies where they show that if you have a cut and you're more secure, it can heal faster. So it has a profound effect on our immunity, on our inflammation, on many different physiological aspects. So that whole nice separation, oh, we're not going to be too dependent. That's really nice. But it's not happening. So basically it's hard when someone is upset not to be upset too. But that's why I have to remember that rule. To keep yourself, but because you reverberate with them. So if you both get upset, that's when we get to the mea culpa rule, which means that you both have to apologize because you both failed the relationship. So you know what? I'm really sorry that I'm upset. I'm really sorry. I really should be really seeing more your point of view. I don't want to be this way. I want us to get along. Can we hug? Oftentimes touch is really good because attachment is pre language. And language sometimes gets in the way.
- [66:16]
A
Language sometimes gets in the way. Ain't that the truth? And it really, it forces us to look at the real point of a relationship. The point of a relationship is not to prove how great you are and you know, to be right.
- [66:32]
B
Yeah, I'm rolling my eyes as you're saying.
- [66:34]
A
That's not the point.
- [66:35]
B
People are really missing the point.
- [66:36]
A
You quickly Learn that when you get, you know, certainly, you know, if you get in a long term relationship or you get married or whatever, the way you like to choose to do long term relationships, you quickly learn, I think if you're gonna have a happy, sustainable relationship, that it's not about being right. That's rarely helpful. But underpinning those two rules was this idea that you wrote about, which I think is quite provocative to some people. You are both responsible for failing to keep each other's emotional equilibrium. So this is really interesting. So I think that the common viewpoint in society is that if a couple are having a disagreement argument that it's someone's fault. But you're kind of saying that if you're having a big disagreement, you're both at fault.
- [67:37]
B
Yes.
- [67:37]
A
Is that fair to say?
- [67:38]
B
Yes, I think it's fair to say.
- [67:40]
A
So if someone's pushing back, if someone's listening to that going, yeah, but you don't know, Dr. Levine, what my husband was like when he said that to me last night. I'm not responsible for that. It was my husband. And I reacted to how my husband was with me. To that person. What would you say?
- [68:02]
B
So I have to first say, of course I'm talking about sort of relationships that are outside of the abusive context, because that's a whole different thing. But, but yeah, and yeah, you're right, they would often say, oh, no, no, but you don't know, oh, no, but you don't understand. And then they're trying to make their case and again, they're trying to use language where there's so much more attachment. If you think about it, we form attachment before we even form language. In utero, we learn to recognize our mother's heartbeats, their voices. Like we form all these attachments early on before we can even speak. And it really goes below language. And so, yes, it's so easy for people to go to who's right and who's wrong, but usually you have to go underneath it and you have to think you're both together and not even just also in friendships, there's something that holds you together and you're losing sight of that. You're losing sight of that because you're stuck in like, he did me wrong and she did me right, or the vice versa. But really you both, there is this need to sort of get reassurance from both and it's failing. So you don't know how to, you basically don't know how to merge that in order to get that emotional equilibrium. And someone needs to be the adult in the relationship often think about it as like, think about like two cats that go up on a tree and they start hissing and clawing at each other and there's no one there to bring them down from the tree. And that's why like even in secure priming therapy, I often do real time interventions when people can text me. She stopped responding to me. Who does she think she. Who the fuck does she think she is? I'm sorry, I'm saying that because that it really escalates to there very quickly. There's so much anger and the anger is really because of that emotional disconnect. They think they're angry because of all the injustice, but it's really more about the emotional disconnect. And then our brain gives this language and then you mention, well, you know, actually she sometimes does it during fights because she feels wounded. So she doesn't know how to bridge the gap. But you know that she loves you. And you both, like, you can go to childhood, you both were a lot, you've both been through a lot. There's certain echoes and patterns and like, but you guys also are really good with each other and you can really, really help each other. And she was really there for you last year when you were sick and, and then I was like, okay, you calm down. And then he goes and he said, you know, I'm sorry, the miya culpa. I'm sorry that upset you. I didn't really mean to. I don't want us to fight. This is really bad. What are we doing? We're wasting. Life is so short. Let's give, let's hug. And then it's like you really decompress the whole situation because that's what it's about. Like maybe he was right. Why she, she's not right. Why is she withdrawing? He said something, she said something. But it's really. First establish that emotional connection again and then if you want to, you can talk about it. But you know what often happens? You don't care anymore.
- [70:54]
A
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, I love it. It's really, it's really basically saying at the root, the human brain is a social brain. Our brain functions differently and looks differently when we have these secure attachments around us. The purpose of a relationship, at least a relationship that's going to help you, is to keep feeding the brain that information that the external world is safe, that I have people who are there for me around me. If that's your starting point, then an argument where someone's got really upset that's downstream. It's like, yeah, okay. It's not about proving I'm right here or whatever it might be. It's like the point of this relationship is to help us both feel as though we've got someone, you know, by our side as we go about the world together. We just need to get back to that. Maybe because my wife got upset first. Even though I'm upset by what she said, I need to apply that rule. Only one person is allowed to be upset at any one time. It doesn't matter, because if you also get your upset on top of your wife's upset and then try and solve something, probably isn't going to go very well. So I think that's a really helpful rule. But I guess underpinning both of those rules is what's the end game here? What do we actually want here? We want a harmonious relationship. Right. So I can see why that is so helpful and why it's going to be so challenging for some people to hear.
- [72:42]
B
You know, that's why I always bring it back to that strange situation and looking at babies and they're still facing. Because it's easier. It's easier to conceptualize it in babies. So when you're taking care of a baby and the baby gets upset and they're crying and crying, and sometimes it's hard again because we have that physiological connection. It's hard also not to feel a lot of, like, upset. But we oftentimes learn to sort of curb our emotions and our, like, frustration and. And be there for the baby because we know that if we actually get more upset and more, the baby will feel it and they'll get more upset, too. So we learn to sort of like, okay, I need to take care of this helpless creature first before I take care of. And then. And be there for them. And then. Then once they calm down, I can calm down. Yeah.
- [73:33]
A
So going back to those early three chapters in the book where you talk about the brain and what the brain needs to feel secure, we've just talked about the cyberball effect and what happens to the brain when, you know, we feel excluded or rejected. And then in chapter two, you talk about the antidote to exclusion, being hyperconnected, which I found really, really interesting. So can we just talk about what, you know, you've got the. What is it? It's carp, isn't it? And simmies.
- [74:12]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's talk. These are foundational, foundational things.
- [74:15]
A
I think it'd be really good for people to understand because ultimately, carp and simmies are basically telling us what we can do, right?
- [74:22]
B
Right. So this is how like when people came to me and they asked me how can I become more secure? How can I become more secure? And I didn't have an immediate answer to that because these attachment styles, like they don't exist within, they didn't exist within the clinical realm. So it took me a while to come up with the answer. And I think the answer came up to me more from understanding the brain as a scientist rather than as a physician. And so I married two concepts together, one from the attachment world and one from the neuroscience world. So basically if you again, because you know that it's. Attachment is a safety mechanism. So being disconnected makes us feel that life is less meaningful, that we're less in control of our life and even that we have less leads us to have less self esteem. So these are things that people usually think that are domains that happen only within us, that are not that affected by how others treat us. But no, our sense of connectedness really affects us to the core. Our core feelings about how much we feel that life is meaningful, about our self esteem, about our control over our life. And the opposite is true. So what they found, they did the same solvable experiment and they had like, so you're standing them instead of like they're not throwing the ball and not throwing it to you, you're standing in the middle and two other people, each one on each side of you. And then you throw the ball to one, they throw it back to you, then you throw the ball to the other, they throw it back to you, you're in the center of attention, you're getting all the balls, like much more, the ball is thrown in your direction more often than not. So, so you're hyper included. And they found that the brain, as much as it loathes disconnect, it loves being hyperconnected like that. And it makes you feel a greater self esteem, greater sense of control over your life. And it's like really all these foundational effects and so these psychological benefits. So I thought to myself, how do I create that hyperconnectedness? But it had to be something simple that you could use. And if you understand attachment, you know that you don't need to have like hours long conversations in order to feel connected to someone. That's not what this system is about. It's a pre language system. So that's when I came up with this acronym. I figured you really need to learn to be consistent, available and responsive. But it's not like, oh, I'm Consistent, available and responsive. I'm so great. You have to also make sure it's like a two factor authentication. You have to make sure that the other person experiences you as reliable and predictable. And that altogether is consistent, available, responsive, reliable and predictable.
- [77:01]
A
Hence carp C A R R P. Right, exactly. So what does each of those things mean? Because I guess if we, we'd all like to think of ourselves as being those five things, wouldn't we? I guess if you were to ask people and say, would you, in the closest relationships in your life, would you like to be consistent, available, responsive, reliable and predictable? I think everyone would say, yeah, I'd love that.
- [77:28]
B
Well, you would say that because you're probably more secure. But other people, like even yesterday when I gave a talk, someone's like, oh my God, first of all, they never thought about it that way. I'm totally not that now that you told me that, it was like a moment of revelation. I, oh, I'm never that. I never answer on time. I'm never responsive because it's clear to me, at least, maybe I'm wrong, but that you're not avoidant. Because avoidant people who are avoidant, oftentimes it's like, no, they need to take care of their own emotions. I don't need to be constantly available to them. Avoidance. Think for each his own. Like, why do I need to be in constant contact? Why do I always have to respond? No, I don't want to do that. So.
- [78:11]
A
But of course, you know, let's say it's an email or a text message that we don't get a reply to. Right?
- [78:20]
B
Yeah, I love that you mentioned that because it's so visceral. Right.
- [78:25]
A
But how you interpret that will depend on your attachment style, won't it? Because let's say you're secure and you send an email or a text message to someone and you don't get a reply, you're like, hey, they're probably busy.
- [78:43]
B
Right.
- [78:44]
A
It's no reflection on me, the fact that they haven't replied. Whereas if you're one of the insecure attachment styles, that could be like really freaky. It could be like, oh my God, what have I done? They don't like me, they're annoyed with me. You know, I'm no longer gonna be their friend or whatever it might be. Right?
- [79:05]
B
Right. So it also depends on the baseline of that relationship. Right. Because we create this attachment homeostasis. And so if you know that someone replies every several hours, you're not going to expect them to reply More, it's all about a disruption in a certain baseline.
- [79:19]
A
No, but it's a two way thing, isn't it? Right. Or let me ask you, Amir, is it a two way thing in the sense that if these five features are required for the brain to feel hyper connected with people around us. Okay. Consistency, availability, responsiveness, reliability and predictability.
- [79:39]
B
Yeah.
- [79:40]
A
Not only do we want those five things, we also, to keep up our side of the relationship bargain, need to make sure we are providing those things for the people in our lives.
- [79:54]
B
Oh, for sure.
- [79:55]
A
It's both ways, right?
- [79:56]
B
Yeah, we have to start there and then also. Yeah, we have. So that's where I married it together to a concept from neuroscience. And I'm glad that you're asking about that because oftentimes when people come to therapy and again, like, and I think there's room for that and it's important, but they think about the vehicle for change as talking about your childhood, talking about difficult things that have happened to you. And they're important. And we mentioned also in some of the ways that they can be important, but people often don't think about what I've come to call the sick, seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life.
- [80:30]
A
I love that. Simis.
- [80:31]
B
Yes.
- [80:32]
A
Seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life. I loved this bit.
- [80:37]
B
And when you understand the brain from a neuroscience perspective, especially me, when I did a lot of research on epigenetics, you understand actually the brain is a very sensitive organism to the environment. We think about our skin as sensitive to the outside elements, but our brain is just as sensitive, if not more. We have our tendrils, our senses, constantly checking what's happening. And the brain can constantly update, it does constantly update itself, depending on our environment and our situation. So basically, each and every small, what seems to you insignificant interaction is an opportunity to either enhance your current belief and current sort of expectations or change it. And really it can change on a structural level in the brain. So much so that even if you remember any of this conversation tomorrow, on some level some structural changes have happened in your brain, like in your epigenetics, in your chromatin. I'm not going to go into the molecular mechanism of that, but some structural changes happen in your brain. So it's that profound. Those small interactions give you an opportunity each and every day to change. And again, each change is a relatively small change by taken together over time, like, it can lead you to a completely different place. And emotional learning is an implicit type of learning. It's not an explicit learning. It's like motor Learning, it's like how you learn how to. You learn to ride a bike or play piano, play golf. You kind of like you, you over time, perfect it and perfect it. And that's the idea. So if you learn to create secure like carp simis in your life, that's the way to become more secure. The thing is that different attachment styles have to learn it in a different way. And that's where I go into great length in the chapter is like teaching each attachment style. What do you need to do in order to make your life your CMEs more carb.
- [82:40]
A
Yeah. I love this idea that the brain, it's never staying the same.
- [82:46]
B
Never.
- [82:46]
A
Yeah, it's constantly responding and updating itself based upon the inputs it is getting.
- [82:55]
B
In one of my especially social input.
- [82:58]
A
Yeah. And in terms of social input, I actually, in my book on happiness, which came out a little while ago, there was a chapter in it called Talk to Strangers, which I suspect you'll enjoy because it kind of speaks to, I think, this idea of simmies, right? These small, well, not small, these seemingly insignificant minor interactions. And in that chapter I made the case that talking to strangers is really good for you. Right. And that there's a network of systems in the brain that scientists call the sociometer, and it's constantly scanning the external world for threats. And if, for example, at your local coffee shop, you know, you say thank you to the barista, they smile at you and you have a nice little chat, or same thing when you're getting your shopping at the supermarkets. These seemingly insignificant interactions with inadverted strangers actually send a very powerful message to your brain. They show you that actually, yes, the world around me is safe.
- [84:03]
B
That hyper connectedness. Yes, yes. It completely, it totally maps on what
- [84:08]
A
you're saying, which I love.
- [84:09]
B
Yes. And I have an example in the book about the healing power of the simis where like, a woman loses her husband and then she moves to another town. And all of a sudden she, like, she sees, like, she initially, she's very depressed and then all of a sudden, like, she walks around, she goes to a yoga. Yoga class and the women come around and greet her and they ask her to come to lunch. And then she walks around. And so even not having a conversation, what happened? Like, people were waving at her, but she comes from a big city and she didn't really. It's like she was looking behind to see who are they waving at. And they were waving at her. And even people in cars, it's just a place where people wave at each other, even if they don't know each other. And that was a huge force in her healing and ability to sort of process the grief, just like those saying hello, nodding to someone on the street, was very, very powerful. So, I mean, another aspect of it is that's in chapter four of the book. It's about like, energy and the brain.
- [85:12]
A
Yeah.
- [85:13]
B
And I think that's really, I find it to be really wild. Some of the research that I came across, and really, again, it's from a neuroscience perspective. If you, you really have to understand how the brain, what the brain, how does it, like, how does it work and how does it use energy. And if you're going to understand, if you understand this sort of the principle that first of all, people used to think, oh, you only use 10% of your brain. But we now know that that's not true. We use a huge portion of the brain all the time. And not only that, the brain is a huge energy guzzler. So, like the brain weighs about 2% of our body weight, but it actually uses 20% of our energy. And in children it's even more like 50%. It's coming crazy. So it's a huge energy guzzler. But our nervous system found a trick to conserve energy so it can divert more energy to exploration. The brain conserves energy by looking outside of itself. And if it feels safe, it can let its guard down and it can increase and divert some of that energy towards more exploration and thinking about ideas. So you don't need to be vigilant in what's happening around me all the time, which we do without even noticing.
- [86:26]
A
So when we have these insecure attachments, we're using up a lot of background energy because. Because the brain doesn't feel safe and secure. So as we can move to a more secure brain using a lot of these tools and techniques that you write about, we're naturally gonna calm things down in the brain and have more energy available for other things.
- [86:48]
B
Yes, yes, exactly. And we, I think, know it instinctively that some relationships are. We even say, oh my God, it's draining and it's so much energy and it's real energy. That's sort of the point that I'm trying to make. And I explain how the brain works and how like with ATP and sort of the action potential. So when you go down to the cellular level, you understand the brain, why it uses so much energy. So it's real energy that you're conserving. It's not just a metaphor.
- [87:15]
A
Yeah. And some of the marketing material that Your publisher created around this book, which is very thorough and very good. There was a couple of things it said, a couple of things sort of printed that I thought would be worthwhile discussing. The first one I think we've just done why smiling at people on the tube might be more effective than going to therapy. And that basically comes down to these CMEs, right? And what it does to the brain. It also says though, why closure is a myth and why we still feel that we need it. That's an interesting one. Why is closure a myth?
- [87:50]
B
So basically, I don't know if I would say that it's more effective than therapy, but I would just say it's
- [87:56]
A
as effective as therapy talking to strangers.
- [87:59]
B
Basically. I'm a big proponent of therapy. And actually in this book I just like it's not the secure priming therapy. It doesn't come to replace other therapies, but I think it's just like an added aspect. It's like additional skills for therapists to be able to use in treatment. Because what I found. And then we'll get back to the closure. What I found is that there's this whole body of research about secure priming that we can all be primed to greater security and that there's a secure kernel within us and that some of these priming that basically that we all have secure representations within us. But I like to call it secure kernels that we can tap into and cultivate to become more secure. And oftentimes these are events or people that we interacted with that were secure. That as people who are insecure we oftentimes tend to gravitate and in therapy especially and think about difficult things that have happened and there's not always room for like also the magnificent relationships that we've had that with secure people in our lives. And I start the book actually with one of those examples of an amazing vacation that I took with someone who is thoroughly secure and how it's still stays in my mind. I mean, I went on a vacation when I was 12, but it's still like it's left such a significant impact. And I found as a therapist that listening to those stories and we all have them, I mean I think the majority of us have them of some of us had amazing mentors, some of us had amazing grandparents, parents, brothers, sisters, sometimes even a pet. There's all these examples of secure attachments that we've exposed to and tapping into them and talking about them and reliving some of those things can actually lead to greater security. So that's one aspect of it. But to go about for the closure thing, the closure from an attachment perspective, what happens is usually you want closure when something's not happening and, and their relationship fell apart. And then you feel if I only. But the thing that. Remember that I mentioned that concept of protist behavior. And there's another concept that's called activating strategies. So activating strategies is when we feel that the other person is not available to us. Our mind will engage in multiple. There's so many different ways in which it will engage again. It's a very powerful force and it's about our survival. So for our mind, we need to re engage with this person in order to feel safe and to survive. Because otherwise we're going to. We're on the sideline, we're going to be picked up, we're going to become prey. We still think like we're in the middle of this food chain and it feels very dangerous. So our mind will go to all these different tricks to convince us to try to reach out for the person to the other person and try to understand. It's like, oh, I want to try to understand what happened. Or I can't believe they don't want to be with me. How can that be? Or maybe I missed something. So it really inactive anyway. You keep the relationship in your mind by constantly thinking about them and trying to find answers. And so you'll go and you'll think, I'll get closure and it will help me. But usually you re engage with them and then you go home and you still don't have all the answers because it's going to keep on thinking about what's happened and what's not happened. And oftentimes the answers are there. It's just like our mind without activating strategies, it doesn't let us see it. And we think, no, no, if only we'll get that. And oftentimes it doesn't work that well.
- [91:46]
A
So what do we do instead of getting closure? If someone's listening to this and they think maybe your relationship's gone badly and they think, I need to see that person, I need to talk to them, I need to understand things a bit more. I need to get closure. You're sort of saying that maybe they don't need closure. What can they do instead?
- [92:05]
B
What I'm saying is that oftentimes you think you need closure, but it's really an activating strategy and it's really a way to interact with a person again. And that's fine. It's Not a bad thing. It's just like you're not going to get exactly what you want. I think the better thing instead is to have designated secure people in your life and go to talk to them.
- [92:26]
A
So the closure isn't necessarily about that person. It's like, that's over for whatever reason. Instead of going to them to try and get more closure, look at other relationships in your life, these secure relationships, maybe your old friends or whatever. And what? Talk to them.
- [92:44]
B
Yeah. And they will tell you, well, they. I don't know, they just didn't like you. Or maybe if they'll be honest, they'll tell you that. Or it's like, well, you know what? It didn't work and maybe it's for the best. And you're like, no, no. But you don't understand. But it's this and it's that. But it's also helpful for you. That's where knowing the attachment language is so helpful, because you can then understand. Oh, no, actually, that's an activating strategy. That's my brain telling me I feel very unsafe in this world if I'm not gonna be in touch with this person and find out this information. It's just another way of, like, thinking about it and continuing the relationship in my mind. Because my mind can let go, my brain cannot let go of that person. And here's a very important point, and I often tell this to my patients. We think that we're in control and we're at the helm of these things that we know what we're doing. But when it comes to attachment, it's much stronger than us. It's much, much stronger than us. And that's why it causes us to yell and. And lash out and do all those things. It sort of really speaks to very rudimentary emotions in us. So oftentimes a separation or a breakup, you have to do two separate processes. You have to separate from that person. But you also have to work with your attachment or circuitry and know that you will be stronger than you, that you'll talk to your friends and they're not going to convince you that again, because language doesn't really help. Sometimes there's something beyond language that goes on. But just having that realization that. That knowledge that it's going to. That the chatter will continue in your brain for a while until it lets go, I think is crucial.
- [94:28]
A
Yeah.
- [94:29]
B
Once you are convinced that the other person, they're not coming back, then eventually you'll start to deactivate. And so you activate. You activate and Then you start to deactivate. And then the way they usually deactivation looks like it's like when you, well, maybe it wasn't meant to be you. So instead of like, no, no, but this is the only one. And this is the only person that I want or even in friendships, no, I can't be without this friend. So that's all the activation strategies that your brain engages in. And then at some point when. But it's really. It happens on its own dime when you realize, I guess they're not coming back. When every cell in your body kind of like finally comes to that conclusion. And it's different for different people. More people, people with more anxious attachment style usually have a more sticky attachment style that's harder for them to let go. But not only. And then you start to deactivate. And it can be like it wasn't meant to be sometimes. Sorry, it's like it's sometimes it's also even thinking negative things about the other person. And it's like, well, the best example of that that I have is. Is one of my patients. He went through a very, very painful, painful breakup. And then he. And then after a while, it was over. And he was able to deactivate for a long, long time. He was living in the West Village and his partner was living in the East Village. He couldn't cross Fifth Avenue. He couldn't go to the east side of Manhattan because he was so painful and reminded him of how hard, like, he wanted the other person back and he just didn't work. And then eventually he deactivated and then they became friends and he went over and he stayed. They had like a house, like a country home. And so he stayed at this ex partner's house. He was in the Hamptons. And then he already had someone new and he was like sleeping in the bedroom in the guest bedroom next to their bed. And he heard them having sex. And he could tell me that all he was thinking about how lucky am I that I'm in this guest bedroom and I'm not there in that bedroom? Because this person is a much better friend than a partner. So that's like a classic example of deactivation.
- [96:43]
A
But that took some time to get to that point.
- [96:45]
B
Yes, in the beginning, it couldn't even cross Fifth Avenue because it was so painful. So these things take time and we think, oh, if I'm going to get closure, it's going to go away. But these things, like, it has a life of its own and you can try different things, but don't be surprised that it doesn't go away with the closure that you think you're gonna get.
- [97:06]
A
There's so much in this book that we're not gonna get to talk about. But one of the things I did want to just bring up with you on this conversation is to do with people pleasing boundary setting and codependency, which are, you know, the terms of the age, aren't they? You know, these are phrases that have really come into prominence over the last five or ten years. And towards the end of your book, you say in one of the chapters that people pleasing boundary setting and codependency are lenses that can often lead people astray in their attempt to become more secure. It's quite a counterintuitive approach, or I guess it's an approach that's perhaps not aligned with. With how a lot of people think about these things. So I wonder if you could just give your perspective on that.
- [98:01]
B
Right. So that's what I love about attachment, is that it really lends itself to a completely different way of looking at the world as like a secure way. And it helped me personally in my own life. And basically when you think about boundaries, so when you understand secure attachment, you don't think so much in terms of boundaries because it's almost like a dance. You're dancing with the other person, like a couple's dance. Like you're taking a step further, they're taking a step back. It works seamlessly. What happens when you set a boundary? Oftentimes it's like you're saying you put a line in the sand and you say, you can cross this. This is what I need, and that's how it's going to be. But in a secure attachment, it's more like a give and take. You are anticipating the other person's needs and you try to find your way, find a way to meet them, and they're anticipating your needs and they try to find a way to meet them. And it works. It kind of like happens seamlessly.
- [99:06]
A
So you're basically saying that the reason why people may feel they need to put in place boundaries is, is because there's an issue with the relationship. There's an insecure attachment in some way. Whereas if that relationship was worked on to be more secure, there would be no need for boundaries because those boundaries would naturally get taken care of in the context of that relationship.
- [99:35]
B
Right. So it really depends. So that lends itself to so many different scenarios. And that's where the book really sort of dives into specific scenarios. So for example, like, you feel that your partner is too needy and is calling you too much, but then when you look into it, you find that you're more avoidant. And oftentimes, and I describe that in the book, there's the pitfalls that oftentimes avoidance fall into without even knowing that they fall into it. So you engage in a lot of closeness and you have this idea, oh, you can carry that closeness forward, you're getting credit for closeness, and now you can actually withdraw. And you spent the whole weekend together, I even give that example. And you did amazing things. Why do you have to text them on Monday morning? You just spend so much time together, but you don't understand the attachment homeostasis that you need to keep that carp going in all those cities and you withdraw and you sort of now they're starting to text you more. So you say, you know, this is a boundary. You can't text me when I'm at work all the time. But you're missing a point, you're missing a way. And so the partner was like, okay, I'll understand, but you're missing. But then they'll feel unsettled inside, where it would have been much easier to solve if you had on Monday morning said good morning with a little smiley emoji problem gone. Like, there's no need for a boundary and for something to say, this is the line and I can't meet your needs.
- [101:03]
A
So these things like boundary setting or people pleasing, you're basically saying a downstream. So people pleasing, for examp could be that the reason you feel the need to perform in that relationship and be less authentic and try and do things in order to be liked is downstream from the fact that you have an insecure attachment. If you had a secure attachment with that other person, or I guess a secure relationship with yourself and who you are, you would feel less of a need to people please. Is that what you're saying?
- [101:42]
B
So I think so. Again, it's kind of like a symptom. So for example, I can think about a scenario where you giving a lot, but you don't feel that you're getting enough back. So the problem is not that you're giving, but is that you don't feel that it's reciprocal. So that's one potential because the partner is withdrawing and because they're not carp. And if the partner understood that they actually have to keep that sort of thread going, then you wouldn't necessarily even feel that you're pleasing the person.
- [102:12]
A
And when you say they're not carp. Just in case anyone has not quite remembered the analogy. When you're saying carp, you're referring to CAR question, the acronym for consistency, availability, responsiveness, reliability and predictability. The things that we want from other people and we should also be trying to give to other people as well.
- [102:31]
B
I call them the five pillars of secure attachment. And it's so easy, it's such an easy tool to learn, but you have to learn how to do it differently. So for the avoidance, most of the time they're like, usually they just abruptly withdraw and without even knowing that they're properly withdrawing. So you teach them, you say you need your distance, that's fine, you can get your distance. And sometimes it works. Even with a few sessions, they come in and you say, you know, let's set up a thing where you can actually text them back every morning. You learn the quirks of the other person attachment, what they need, and it's, it's done very quickly. So that's the way doing it.
- [103:12]
A
I love that as an idea. And as you say, if you know, if you're avoidant and then you just unpredictably withdraw because it just gets too much and you suddenly withdraw, then you're not displaying carp to the other person, are you? So you know, at the very least you're not being consistent, you're not being reliable, you're not being predictable. So of course they're going to respond to that.
- [103:37]
B
Yes.
- [103:37]
A
So you're basically saying you can still be avoidant, but maybe you need to communicate better when you are withdrawing. Do you know what I mean?
- [103:45]
B
Yeah, you can get your space. And there's the other side of it too. Well, maybe if you really need your space more because we have this variability like, like among other animals for preference for distance and closeness. And it's not necessarily because something bad happened to you in childhood, you just need more space. Then don't go and create like this super, super close weekend and sort of like where you actually have a really time handling it and then feel the need to withdraw. Learn, like to do it more. So learn to balance it out more in a way that you can live with it better.
- [104:19]
A
Yeah. And surely a lot of this comes down to our ability to communicate as well. Right. Because if we understand ourselves better and our attachment styles and we enhance our ability to communicate, that we can explain that to the people around us, right?
- [104:36]
B
Yes, exactly. And it's really. Yes. And it's really like the basis is the understanding of these principles. And I gave an example there about this guy like, they have this. I think it wasn't. It was like they had an amazing weekend together. They went to a play, and it's all like, she really wanted to go to this, to see this play. And he got her tickets to this play. They went to, like, a Michelin star restaurant the next day. Even bought her, like, this expensive purse. And then come Monday, he usually texted her, but he didn't. He failed to text her. And then, like, he had a lot of stress at work. And then at night, the next night, it's the first time, like, ever that he didn't. He was too tired to have sex. And she was like, I know what you're doing. You're withdrawing, you're pulling away. People always do that. And then he's, like, got really upset. Like, why are you doing this after this amazing weekend that we had together? And he got upset. I don't want to talk about it anymore. And then she couldn't sleep all night. And then all that stuff went down. And then basically it escalated from there. But if he understood the attachment biology, he could have saved himself so much of that strife and need for more intense closeness. By understanding that, especially after, like, a very intense weekend, you've created sort of up the ante. You need to keep that sort of carp baseline going and text in the morning. And let's say you got to the place where she got upset not to get upset with her, because if you understand the biology, you'll understand, wow, she's responding to the delta, to the change, because that's what our neurobiology is meant to do. So let me give her the reassurance that she needs.
- [106:16]
A
Yeah, it's what's the symptom and what's the root cause?
- [106:21]
B
Yeah, it's so simple. But attachment has its own logic. And it's not the logic of the words that we like, people usually think it's the logic of safety of an animal in the middle of the food chain.
- [106:36]
A
Amir, I've thoroughly loved talking about this topic with you. You've, you know, you've gone into such detail in your first book from what, a decade ago, attached and now insecure. I think it's gonna really help people understand themselves better and give them tools to navigate the social world a bit better. A lot better. But to finish off this conversation for someone who's listened and has saw. Yeah, you know what? I am insecurely wired. You know, I'm either avoidant, I'm anxious, or I'm fearful. Avoidant. I'm one of those Three. But you're telling me, Amir, that I can actually live this secure life using the science of secure connection. What are some of your favorite practical tools that you would leave that person with?
- [107:34]
B
So I would definitely say really learn the logic of the attachment or circuitry. And then we talked about some of those two tools. Like when you're fighting with someone, the only one person is allowed to be upset at the time.
- [107:54]
A
I love that one. I really like that one.
- [107:57]
B
And the mea culpa role. But there's another one that I actually often tell people, but it's particularly true for fearful avoidance because they get into so much relationship strife. I call it stopping yourself in your track and apologizing. And so sometimes people feel that when they start a fight, then it is basically there's a momentum, and then you can't sort of get out of that momentum. It's like the roller coaster starts to go down. Yes. And there's no way out.
- [108:26]
A
But you're about to say, that's not true.
- [108:28]
B
That's not true. And at any given moment. And just by knowing that and actually practicing that. And sometimes I do it with people because I text people in real time to help them. Cause sometimes you sort of. It's like almost like your brain gets hijacked.
- [108:42]
A
Yeah.
- [108:43]
B
And then so you stop and you say, you know what? I'm sorry. I don't want to be this way. I really want to be more secure. And this is certainly not secure. Like, I really apologize. I'm saying all these things. Sometimes I don't even mean them, but I'm saying them because I'm upset. So help me be better. Help me do better. Like, usually I always go to the hug thing, but that's like in romantic relationships. But we have attached yourself in friendships. And you can still say, I don't want to say these things. I know I'm being hurtful. I really don't want to do that. Help me climb down from this tree. You know, that's lovely.
- [109:21]
A
And even just saying help me, even though you might have started an argument, you Abdulloh acknowledged that maybe you should never have started it in the first place and that you're sorry. And then saying, help me, it changes the whole tonality of it entirely. Suddenly it's like, oh, this person needs help from me. And it's very powerful. The other sort of thing I can't stop thinking about, and you brought it up throughout this conversation, is that our attachment styles are pre verbal and words often cause more problems. And you say like a hug I get it. You know, a hug can be so powerful and can arguably say more than words. And yes, we know about that in the context of a romantic relationship. But you can also hug your mates.
- [110:10]
B
Definitely.
- [110:11]
A
Sometimes men struggle with that, but we don't need to. I mean, it's super nice to hug one of your friends and, you know, you both know what that means, so you don't have to say anything.
- [110:21]
B
I'll give you. Exactly. I'll give you an example of something that happened to me with my brother in law. He can be very difficult and say really hurtful things. And one time he said something that was very hurtful to me and I said, you know what? That's actually. And I was like, you know what? I'm leaving. I was visiting them. I'm leaving. He said, no, no, don't leave. I'm sorry. And then he's like, come here. And he kind of grabbed me. He's like, big guy. And he hugged me like, what's happening? What's going on? And then all of a sudden, I found myself being soothed and feeling better just like instantly. Yeah.
- [110:51]
A
I spoke to a chap called Professor Francis McGlone many, many years ago, maybe seven years ago on this podcast. And he's one of the world's leading scientists in touch. And he was explaining to me back then about when we get safe, affectionate touch. It sends very powerful signals to your limbic brain. It lowers levels of the stress hormone cortisol. It really, you know, reassures us on a deep level. And we've kind of lost some of this stuff, haven't we, in the modern world where we've become more isolated, we do more things by ourselves, we frankly probably touch our phones more than we touch other human beings.
- [111:31]
B
I agree.
- [111:31]
A
Right. Which is kind of remarkable when we understand what touch does to us on a deep level. But it kind of fits very much with your work on attachment styles, doesn't it?
- [111:41]
B
Entirely, yes. That's a great. I'm glad you brought that in because it's just. It's very, very powerful. Even just like, for example, my dog is very sensitive to upset, and I think he can smell it. So sometimes you don't even have to say it. And he comes and he's like, jumps on you and he lies on top of you when he feels that you're upset.
- [112:00]
A
Yeah. And what would your final message be to someone who thinks, you know what, Amir, it's great to hear all this stuff, but I can't change. I've been this way my Entire life, I always have conflict in my relationships. I do feel very insecure. There's nothing I can do. What would you say to that person?
- [112:24]
B
You know how many patients I've seen that started out this way and it seemed like an impossible. It's almost like someone comes to you with a knot and how do you untie that knot? And then, yeah, if you think about it this way, you. If you're gonna try to pull, then you're not gonna be able to untie the knot. It's actually gonna become even stronger. But if you. All you need to do is like, take out one thread at a time. And then eventually over time, you all of a sudden you have this really nice, clear thread. And that's how I see it, like with patients in therapy. And I really, I poured my heart and soul into this book and all of the tools that I use with my patients, with my supervisee, I put so much of it in there. So these are things that have really helped patients sort of make those changes. And even if you make, I give an example in the book, like think about like a cruise ship, you sort of like, you change the course a little bit, but then over, over, over time it goes in a completely different direction. So even a 10% change in biological system is a big change.
- [113:27]
A
Yeah, I love that. It's a very hopeful message. It's very empowering message. I think you've done a phenomenal job on this book. It's going to help so many people at school. The revolutionary guide to creating a secure life. Amir, thanks for writing the book and thanks for making time to come on my podcast.
- [113:44]
B
That was great. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you.
- [113:50]
A
Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life and also have a think about one thing from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email, I share exclusive, exclusive insights that I do not share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday. You can sign up for free@drchatterjee.com Friday 5 Now if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world covering all kinds of different topics. Happiness, food, stress, sleep, behavior change and movement, weight loss and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out. They are all available as paperbacks, ebooks and as audiobooks which I am narrating. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is not now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is click the link in the Episode Notes in your podcast app. And always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more.
- [116:07]
B
It.