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Feel Better, Live More with Dr Rangan Chatterjee
How To Recover From Burnout (It’s Not What You Expect) with Pippa Grange #656
01:43:00
What if burnout isn't a sign that something is broken in you, but a sign that something needs to change? That's the question at the heart of this conversation – and it’ll shift the way you think about your energy, your career, and how you’re spending your one life.
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- [00:01]
Pippa Grange
Burnout doesn't happen overnight. It is a very uncomfortable, involuntary process of transitioning away from what's not working for you anymore. Your body and your mind just say, hey, we've been throwing up warning lights for months and months here. You're not listening, so you're handing over the keys and we're crashing. What I really want to do is change people's method so that you don't actually get to that point where you are straining so much that you're on the cusp of a crash.
- [00:31]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Hey, guys, how you doing? Hope you're having a good week so far. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, and this is my podcast, Feel Better Live More what if burnout isn't a sign that something is broken within you, but simply a sign that something needs to change? That's the question at the heart of this week's conversation, and it will shift the way you think about your energy, your career, and how you're spending your life. Pippa Grange is a performance coach and author of a brilliant new book, Life Reclaimed. Now, you might know Pippa from her previous appearance on my podcast, or as a psychologist who transformed the England football team. You see, she spent 25 years helping the world's highest performers understand not just how to succeed, but but how to do so without losing themselves in the process. And increasingly, that message is relevant not just in elite sports and business, but in every workplace and household. We begin by talking about why over performance is so prevalent these days, and why it's not a personal failing, but a cultural shift. Pippa describes burnout as something that happens when life's pace and pressure and outweighs our ability to cope. We overperform at work, at home, even socially, and we've forgotten what balance looks like. The solution? Her framework of regenerative performance built around a simple but powerful cycle. Perform, rest, and renew. And if that sounds familiar, it's because it's happening right in front of us every single day. You see, for Pippa, nature is the most intelligent model we have for sustainable human performance. After all, we are a part of the natural world, and it's moving away from these instinctive biological cycles that has led to our collective burnout. Fortunately, she's developed four core principles to guide us from over performance into what she calls regenerative performance. And they're all about listening to the intelligence of our bodies and developing sustainable patterns. This is one of those magical episodes that unfurls slowly but surely to reveal its relevant, relatable wisdom. So sit back, relax, and get ready to reclaim your life. To start off, why is it, do you think, that so many people are struggling with burnout?
- [03:30]
Pippa Grange
I think this is an absolutely collective problem. So many people are struggling, but that's not a sort of a large number of individuals who've randomly got there. I think it's actually a cultural phenomena as well. And I think it's because we're overperforming. In too many places and in too many ways in our lives. We are living in a way that no longer suits a human being. It's too fast, it's too revved. It requires too much mental activity from us at all times. We've forgotten how to rest and renew our energy, to regenerate. And collectively, that's leading us to a place where we're, if not just strained, where we're on the precipice of burnout and crashing and burning.
- [04:19]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, that term over performance is really the, I guess, the topic of the new book. And as you just alluded to, this seems to be something that a lot of people struggle with these days, this idea that they can't quite get their head above water. Right. And you say this right at the start. Are you addicted to pace and pressure? Do you regularly close off your feelings and ignore your body so that you can get more done? And is the internal narrator to your daily life critical of anything that doesn't add to your progress and betterment? That's a lot of people, isn't it?
- [05:05]
Pippa Grange
That's a lot of people. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I think it's not just you. It's not just an individual phenomena for one person here. It's something that's really prevalent among everybody. Our pace is too high, basically. I think we have a mismatch between the way we used to do it, where grit and discipline and performance methods used to fit the way that the world was. And now we're in a new moment in the world where there's more strain collectively. There's geopolitical strain, there's wars, there's climate change. There's all sorts of things that are pressing down on us collectively. And I don't think we have worked out how to change our methods. And that's what the whole book Life Reclaimed is about, is how do we change our methods for this moment now so that we can regenerate our energy, regenerate our performances, rather than feel like you either have to put tools down and quit or just keep going until you crash.
- [06:05]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's interesting. You say there's a mismatch between the way things currently are and I guess, who we are as humans. Yet you still, throughout your book and your. I would say beyond this book, the entirety of your work, you still look to nature for solutions, don't you?
- [06:23]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, well, we are nature. You know, it's one of the first things I talk about in the book in the sort of, you know, how we learn who to be is this idea that we have a view of ourselves as separate from everything out there. And when we can recognize that we are part of that web of life and it is the most extreme and incredible form of intelligence that'll ever come our way. To tap into that, all the lessons were already there about how to excel, how to perform, how to stay whole. You know, ecology is whole. Industry is not whole. It's compartments and efficiency and productivity and progress.
- [07:05]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
This idea that we're not separate from our surroundings, I very much think like that. There's many people these days who think like that. But for someone who's pushing back against that Pippa, who's going, what do you mean? Like, I'm an individual, I've got to earn my money and pay my mortgage and feed my family. What is the relevance of this idea that we're not separate? How does that apply in that individual's life?
- [07:37]
Pippa Grange
So the way I'm talking about it in the book is when we see ourselves as separate from all else, we also have this idea that we can override all of the signals from the natural world, all of the signals from our own natural landscape in our bodies, in our minds. Our bodies constantly give us signals that maybe we're a little bit strained or on the edge and we ignore them. We presume that our mind, cause we live largely from the neck up, our mind as the control center, is going to be able to push through all obstacles because we will it rather than recognizing. No, you know, when it comes to performance, we have to listen to the whole. And that's what's happening out here. What's happening in here in an outer landscape matching. And I don't think we've. I think we've lost touch with how to do that. Right. So it's not about whether you just need to go into the forest and find yourself again. It is genuinely, how are you responding to all of the intelligence, all of the natural intelligence in your life, in your body, in your world, in the environment and the culture around you? Or are you separate and just living up here in your head, dictating terms and pressing override all the time, as
- [09:03]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
we have this conversation, spring has just sprung in the uk, Right. And I've had one of the best weekends of the year, frankly, and which we could maybe talk about a bit later, but one of the things I've been doing this weekend is read your book while sitting outside. And it's interesting how a lot of the themes you talk about, they actually become really obvious at this time of year. This renewal, this regeneration, this idea that actually the garden was quite damp and soggy and there wasn't much color for the last few months.
- [09:44]
Pippa Grange
Yeah.
- [09:45]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
And suddenly in the last week, it's as if there's a different signal coming in from the universe around. Right. The birds are tweeting and singing at 5am you're in bed, you can hear it outside. So this idea that there is this natural process, you know, you've got this regenerative triangle, don't you? What is it?
- [10:08]
Pippa Grange
Performance, perform, rest, renew. Yeah.
- [10:10]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Perform, rest, renew. I kind of feel nature sort of has that, doesn't it, within it?
- [10:17]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, it does. But, you know, if I take you back to that idea of like, everything not having quite so much color in the winter, and, you know, I think we had like 45 days of rain straight or something this year, is. It's like you pretty indoors psychologically when that happens. Not just physically, you know, but if you look to nature, it's resting. It looks like it's resting. The leaves are off the trees and you don't see as much animal life. You don't hear those birds tweeting as much, but it's doing something. It's just different. It's diverse. Right. One of the things with us and our human nature is that we expect the same homogenous pattern of life from ourselves if we're not tuned in. And that, I think, is one of the problems that leads us to overperforming. Right. So nature's not. It might be at rest in some ways, but it's not inactive through that whole time. It's purposeful rest, you know, and then it comes to renewal. But you are tuned in enough to notice the difference in yourself and the difference in the world around you as it's starting to spring.
- [11:29]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Just to finish off on this kind of idea that burnout is reaching epidemic proportions these days, which really does say something about the state of society. Right. But when I think about why is it that so many of us are, let's say, overworking?
- [11:45]
Pippa Grange
Right.
- [11:46]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
I think there's many reasons. Yes. There's cultural factors. There could be what our boss is expecting of us and their sort of responding to what other bosses are doing or what their boss thinks they should be delivering for them. I also think about our individualistic culture that, you know, we've moved away, many of us, from tribe and community. And so in the past, we would have always known the value we offered to the people around us. It would have been quite obvious, you know, in the tribe, in the hunter gatherer tribe, you know, if you had hunted and brought home some meat, you know, you would have been celebrated. You know, you would, you know, people around you would celebrate you and you would know, yeah, I brought this home today. Or if you were digging the tubers up or you were guarding the camp, whatever it might be, your value was obvious to you. And I wonder sometimes if some of this overperforming comes from the fact that we are living these separate lives now. So sometimes we don't know that we are being of value. So maybe the compensation for that is to go to the place where we do see our value being celebrated. And maybe that's work.
- [13:01]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think this happens outside of work as well. Like, you know, you could describe how this plays out in relationships or in parenting. Same thing that's like, how do you know when it's quite. When you're quite there, you know, And I talk about those narratives that set us up for this kind of overperforming and being sort of the story of us needing to be special at all times is part of that. Right. When you talk about the hunter gatherers, right. That person would not have gone out and brought meat home every day. Right. The tubers would have come only at certain times. People would have dug up and been celebrated. There was a more natural rhythm to the things that we were doing. Now we expect that kind of performance constantly. We expect it to be special, and we feel bad or guilty when we're not optimizing for performance at all times. And that's, for me, part of what I think drains the energy out of people and leaves them sort of feeling like, ah, where's the finish line?
- [14:05]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, this lack of rhythm or the decimation or the erosion of rhythm from our lives, you see it everywhere, like you just mentioned. But it's also, you know, taking that analogy of the hunter gatherer, you know, the tubers or hunting for meat. We're even used to having the Same Foods now, 52 weeks a year. And of course, because of, you know, the modern food system and the food supply, we can have bananas in December in the uk.
- [14:36]
Pippa Grange
Right.
- [14:37]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
But you can't in nature. And so I guess if we were living more in harmony with our natural rhythms, not only would the way we feel changed, you know, spring versus winter, but also what we eat and how we eat would also change, wouldn't it?
- [14:54]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, absolutely. And I use this as a metaphor of not just our physiological sense of self, but our psychological sense of self does better when it's not a monoculture. So when it's a monoculture of food or a monoculture of activity, we get dull, you know, our gut gets dull, our sense of self gets dull. And it's just exactly the same with our mood and our psychology. It's kind of organic in the same way. You know, we need diverse inputs, we need shifts, changes, different speeds, more rhythm, more adaptability, and I don't think we're very good at doing that just yet.
- [15:40]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
How might somebody know if they are an over performer?
- [15:45]
Pippa Grange
Well, some of the classic things people do when they're overperforming, they generally mask what they're feeling. They find it hard to say out loud that they maybe are under strain or feel too tired or feel that, or might keep saying yes when they actually mean categorically no and do it anyway. Bend themselves out of shape a bit. Typically they're always in urgency. They are likely to be side thinking about, have some other mental tabs open while they're doing something, find it really hard to be present. They're likely to be psychologically scrolling, as I say. So they're in a conversation but looking around and thinking about who else is in the room that they need to have an outcome with in some way. They're never quite able to be fully present and spacious and a lot of people are going to recognize that. Right. And the problem isn't that we do it. The problem is that we do it chronically for way too much of the time.
- [16:48]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
So it's okay to do it now and again as long as it's balanced.
- [16:51]
Pippa Grange
Right. I think it's a very human thing to do that now and then. We all have periods of real stress and real strain. This isn't about being perfect. It's about recognizing that we've kind of slipped into this as a chronic way of being and we don't sometimes now we don't know how to not overperform. It's happening in so many places in our life. It's seeped into places it doesn't belong.
- [17:15]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
How might this be relevant for you at this current moment in time, Pippa? So you've got this brand new book out, Life Reclaimed as part of launching a book. I guess you will probably do an element of publicity around it to let people know. So interviews and podcasts, those kinds of things. How does that or does it fit into your regenerative triangle?
- [17:40]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, absolutely. I keep that regenerative triangle right at the center of everything I do. For me, though, at the moment, this is where my energy is in the book and this is the stuff I'm loving. And if I listen to my energy, if I really tune in, I'm like, yes, please, for that. That's a yes feeling. Whereas when I have other requests for other things, maybe things that pull me back into a former version of myself that I think, oh, I could do that, or that might be quite interesting. I have to really watch carefully for the no, because actually my body might be saying, I don't really want to, but I should, or I could. And so, you know, I have to be quite specific about what I'm saying yes to. And that's about my own honesty with myself of like, I don't really want to do it, instead of, I could do it, I ought to do it. You know, not. Not just saying yes, because I can.
- [18:37]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
A big part of this book to me, is about us getting to know ourselves better. I mean, in so many ways, it's very hard to turn the ship around, acknowledge that things aren't quite going the way you want them to go in your life if you don't know yourself, if you don't create space in your life to think and. And that space is what is missing from so many people's lives.
- [19:07]
Pippa Grange
And I think you tell me what your experience is in relation to this, Rangan. But I think that there is a lot of story out there about us needing to fix something when we feel off kilter. Something's broken, something's wrong. What I'm encouraging people to do in this book is to give themself permission to go back to reclaim what's already right. Sometimes we're just over revving rather than broken.
- [19:37]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. There's so much I want to talk to you about, Pippa, just relating to what you just said there in chapter six, which is called Coming Home, you wrote that the hardest part of shifting from over performance to regenerative performance may well be giving yourself permission not to try and immediately diagnose, fix and get back in the saddle. I think that is so profound, this idea that you might recognize throughout this conversation that something's not quite right in your life. It May be that you're burnt out. It may be that you're unhappy or that things aren't quite right and, you know, you need to change something, but what it doesn't need is people to listen to this or read your book and suddenly go, right, that ain't working. I'm gonna do this.
- [20:27]
Pippa Grange
Yeah.
- [20:28]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
We need to allow time to sit with the, I guess, discomfort, the uncertainty that maybe you don't know what's next, you know what's not working, but you don't quite know the solution. And I thought that was really quite evocative and something that I think, again, the cultural narrative doesn't teach us. It's like, you know, as you just said, that's wrong. How do you fix it?
- [20:50]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, yeah. And straight into fix, too. And space, time is probably the number one thing that helps us really get to the nub of what's up and what we need to do next. But it's not always space and time. Sometimes you really know, sometimes it's just removing that sense that you ought to stick at it, that you should just grit it out a bit longer and giving yourself permission, you know, to reclaiming your own permission to just notice and be honest about what you really feel. And that's enough for you to make your next step. You know, it's not necessarily a new something or other, a new direction, a new practice, a new method. A lot of the time it's dropping that and just saying what's here. What do I know about this?
- [21:47]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
You have dealt with and coached, you know, so many of the world's high performers, music, sports, business, over many years. Many people will know you as the psychologist for the England football team for a period of time. And I know you feel uncomfortable with some of the credit that's given to you, but you are widely regarded as someone who had a massively influential impact on changing the psyche and the mindset off the England football team. So you've dealt with a lot of people who have performed at a high level. In your last book, you had this most beautiful concepts about winning. Deep versus winning shallow. How are you winning? Are you winning from a place of lack or from a place of fullness? I guess is another way of looking at it. The topic of this new book, find Freedom from Chronic over performance. Do you think it's more relevant to people at a certain stage in their life? Like, is this your classic midlife moment for people where, you know, they did things a certain way, they got the job that they thought they wanted to get, they've you know, maybe they follow their passion and they, they. They sort of. They worked in that passion, realized. Well, maybe it isn't what I thought I wanted. Is it the sort of thing that people tend to come to in their 40s and 50s, or do you think it can also come at a different time in our lives?
- [23:18]
Pippa Grange
I definitely think it can come at a different time in our lives too. I particularly worry about young people and thinking about how they're, you know, from this concept of schoolishness where right from being very young, you're taught that being exceptional, optimizing every moment, not wasting a second, needing to be evermore is critical in becoming in life, in sort of growing up and becoming successful in life. That's an enormous amount of pressure, and I think it actually leads to a great deal of loneliness in young people and older people. But your point is still valid because by the time we get to midlife, there's a lot of weight that we're carrying. And I think the particular thing that happens at midlife is that we feel like, oh, we can't put all this down now. There's a lot of sunk cost in there. I talk about sunk cost mentality in the book of we've gone too far to stop now. And those old mentalities really can get in the way of us being honest because actually, maybe it's burning you out, killing you, boring you, causing you a lot of strain and suffering. And, you know, as I say in the book, not all sunk cost is buried treasure. Sometimes we actually need to have another look at that, and sometimes we actually have the opportunity to do that, but we don't.
- [24:41]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Often, in my experience, at least, it takes a real low point or a tragedy or an addiction that's gone out of control for people to actually confront this and go, actually, you know what? My current way of doing things isn't working. I need to make a change. I think sometimes without that, people stay stuck. They know something's not quite right, but they don't change. And I can tell you this from, you know, I recently had a conversation with James Hollis. I don't know if you know James or not.
- [25:11]
Pippa Grange
Amazing.
- [25:12]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
I mean, just wonderful. This is my second chat with James, and he talks about this idea. At some point, you know, your soul will come calling. You know, what is your soul asking of you?
- [25:23]
Pippa Grange
Yeah.
- [25:24]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
And you could ignore it.
- [25:25]
Pippa Grange
Yeah.
- [25:26]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Or if you really want to, I guess, live that life, find meaning, find purpose, you better start listening. And he had to do that. He talks very openly about how in his 30s he had inverted commas, depression. But that depression was a consequence of him not listening to this inner voice. And he realized that the job he was in, whilst it looked great from the outside, it wasn't nourishing him.
- [25:51]
Pippa Grange
Right, exactly.
- [25:52]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
And in that first conversation I had with James, he also said to me that in his therapy room over the past 40 years, I think he said 70% of lawyers and doctors who came to see him said, I never had any calling for this profession.
- [26:10]
Pippa Grange
Right, right.
- [26:11]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
So it's really interesting, and I've seen it in my profession, that people feel stuck in their 40s, that they probably shouldn't have been a doctor. They probably, you know, they probably thought, this is a good job, maybe parental pressure, whatever it might be, but they feel stuck. So for that individual. Cause I bet you there's someone listening right now who's in that boat. How would you advise them to think about their situation when they feel they have no other option?
- [26:37]
Pippa Grange
I talk about the sort of concept of psychological firebreaks that we need to put in along the way. So I love James Hollis work and this idea of like, we've all got an appointment with life and most of us never show up. Right.
- [26:49]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- [26:50]
Pippa Grange
What I really want to do with this book is change people's method so that you don't actually get to that point where you are straining so much that you're on the cusp of a crash. Right. So there's a story in the book about. I call the guy Merlin in the book about a surgeon who didn't have that feeling. He was never called to it, or he thought he was called to it, but when he got in there, it just wasn't what he expected. And then he went tech entrepreneur and just really still didn't find it. And then he was looking at himself saying, there's something up with me because I've tried these two things and they're not it. So that's not how I was taught that life works. It's supposed to go in a more linear direction than that. I'm supposed to feel differently now. So in response to the question, one of the main things that we do is stop expecting yourself to follow somebody else's map and tune in to what's actually true and real for you. Right. And that's where we broaden out the sense of sort of our own worth and our own choices. That's why I think young people really, really matter here. So, you know, maybe people don't have to get to their mid-40s to get to that point where they think, oh God, I can't put it down now, you know, so it's if they are wanting, if they're feeling not quite right, they know they're not feeling quite right either because they've got to the precipice of something being very wrong, like James Hollis with a depression, or they're in tune with themselves and they're listening. I'd rather it was the latter.
- [28:27]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. So you're talking about a cultural shift basically in how we think about our lives and work. And you know, I've got a 15 year old and a 13 year old and I think about the narratives I picked up at a young age, completely understandably from immigrant parents of the uk and how on one hand they helped me and on the other hand, you know, there was a hidden cost to me having my self worth tied up with my success and I'm really keen that my children don't develop those narratives. So I guess my question to you would be, how would you suggest we encourage our children to think differently about what their lives might be in the future? I am really excited to share that I am bringing my Thrive tour, Transform your health and Happiness to Canada and Europe this September and November. It's a live, interactive, uplifting show that over 20,000 people came to you last year across the UK and Australia. I'll be sharing powerful stories, life changing insights and simple tools that will inspire you to feel better, think clearer and live with more intention and joy. To get your tickets right now and see all of the dates and venues, go to doctorchattergy.com I really hope that you can join me. Today's episode is sponsored by DO Health, a personalized health companion that I have helped create. Now I built DO Health to transform the way we think about health. You see, for many years whilst working in the nhs, I saw the same thing over and over again. Modern medicine is really good at treating illness, but it was never designed to prevent you from getting sick in the first place, nor to optimize your health. DoHealth is here to change that. It takes everything that I know about health and well being, including my four pillars of health, and makes it personal to you. You get an initial blood test which measures and screens you for over 50 biomarkers. But then all the focus turns to the 11 core biomarkers that are scientifically proven to improve your metabolic health, including many markers which are not easy to get from your NHS gp, like fasting insulin, APOB and homocysteine. Once we have your blood tests, each week. Together with you, we create a personal achievable plan and several times a year we recheck your bloods to make sure that things are moving in the right direction. This is the future of preventative health. A few small changes that will have a huge impact on your life. For listeners of my show, DO Health are offering you fixed early access pricing less than 21 pounds per month to all those that sign up to the wait list today. This is incredible value. Don't forget that this price includes three yearly blood tests as well as 52 custom weekly plans and unlimited daily interactions with Coach Joy. All you have to do is go to dohealth co livemore and use the code live more to gain access to the wait list right now. So I guess my question to you would be, how would you suggest we encourage our children to think differently about what their lives might be in the future?
- [32:41]
Pippa Grange
Well, I think there's so much that can happen there in the home and in the conversation between parent and child. Even though this is a cultural phenomena, the change starts with us. It's your inner landscape that you can actually edit. And the collective editing of that is what will change the culture. So when you have a conversation with your kid about their worth being much broader than the results, that's one step. When you teach them that time together is present time together, as in you are both present for that time together. Rather than you take them somewhere, you're on your phone or doing something else and, you know, multitasking and they're at play. You know, how are you actually relating and engaging with each other? Because when you do that, it's not just about you being a great parent. It's what you're showing them is normal when you're with a person. It's also encouraging them that it's totally natural to have periods of big intensity and big challenge and goals that they're chasing. And then periods of rest back to the triangle, the pyramid of kind of, you know, there's renewal time and renewal time is play laughter, things where you're not performing at all and you let go to it. But they're creative and they renew your energy. Teach your kid that that renewal is as important as couch time and rest, right? They probably have a bedtime. You probably aware of them going too hard and them needing a break from that. But where is their play time? Where is their renew time? Also, can you build that in? Because this isn't about your kid not being successful, right? If I ask you for both of your children, you want them to be successful. It's about a different method or a set of different methods to help them understand how to do that in a regenerative way that doesn't deplete them or extract all their joy.
- [34:44]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, no, I love that. So far we've talked about why it is that so many people feel burnt out. You've also kind of gone through a list of what are some of those things that people might identify in themselves. Right. Which might indicate that they're overperforming. You've got it here in the book as well. You've mentioned self sacrifice, masking psychological scrolling side thinking, having a fantasy finish line. I really love that one. That, as you say in the book, assuming that everything about that over performance will change once they have moved the needle far enough through their own efforts, attainment or behavior. I definitely know what that feels like from a former version of myself, I'm happy to say. So let's say someone so far has identified, Pippa, that, yeah, you know what, I may not be burnt out, but life isn't quite going the way I want it to. Some of those symptoms, as it were, that you've just mentioned, I think I have some of them. If they're now thinking about what are the kinds of things they can do to start changing things, where would you have them start?
- [35:59]
Pippa Grange
The first thing I would have them do is press pause for a second. Okay, Right. And that doesn't mean stop. I'm talking about literally for a few minutes and literally check in. There's a practice in the book that I talk about. The Japanese word for belly is hara. The Japanese believe that that is the place in the body that makes meaning. So they don't ask the head first, they ask hara. And that sort of practice of like hand on heart, hand on belly, what do I feel? What do I need? And just like it is literally a minute and just coming back to yourself. Another thing I would suggest, this is one that I would love you to try out at some point, but asking your nervous system for a midday status report, sort of when you get to midday every day, just in the way that you have morning practices and we might not check in again until the end of the day. But if you can actually just ask your nervous system for a status report around the middle of the day, like, how am I doing? What's my physiology telling me right now? How much of my time have I been up here rather than whole? And I think that's really, really valuable. Another thing is to stop allowing your mind to override the signals that your body is offering you.
- [37:27]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- [37:27]
Pippa Grange
So you know when you feel a bit parched or a bit flagging, we push through until the next break on the mechanical clock on the wall. Not listening to your own body clock of like, oh, now I'm done. Actually, I need a moment. You know, how many times have you been in a meeting and there might be five, six other people, the CO2 in the rooms going up, and you just push through until the scheduled break. But actually you're flagging. Like, can we just get a little bit more in tune with those things? That's where to start. Because noticing is everything when it comes to this.
- [38:04]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
One of the things I've changed in my life over the past few years is my morning. So I've always had morning practices. That's always been quite important to me. But what I used to do, because I had young children at the time, I would go to bed super early, I'd get up super early, have my time to myself, my morning practice, and then I would write for a couple of hours before my wife or my children got up. And I wrote many books doing that, and there's nothing wrong with that. And I realized I don't want to do that anymore. And so I don't. And I think this goes back to what I was sort of getting at before, which is to really make these changes, you have to create space for solitude, and the solitude helps you get even more solitude. But when you're stuck in this constantly doing, you don't even know what it feels like to stop. And I feel it's to do with. For me, I think this really relates to the content in your book, Pippa, is this idea of the nervous system. I want the first little period of my day to be running slowly.
- [39:29]
Pippa Grange
Yeah.
- [39:30]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I guess there's a wider point there for me, Pippa, are some of these strategies that we use to get ahead and to be successful, can we argue that they actually can serve a role at certain times in our life? It's just that you don't want to be doing it forever.
- [39:48]
Pippa Grange
That's exactly it, Rangan. My proposition here isn't that it's just slow. My proposition is that we have these gears that we can move through, and we need to be able to diversify our modes and speeds often. And when we get stuck in fast or even stuck in slow, like when we resist intensity because we're just really attached to slow, that's the problem. It's the adaptation that we're looking for. But you can't know what adaptation you need unless you actually tune in and you've got that little bit of psychological space. You are planful about the times that let you renew, let you rest and let you perform. And when they're not there, you can go, ah, something's off here. What do I need?
- [40:38]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
I like the way you talk about rest in the book and you share that in your own life. You say, I have had to make rest a practice that is central in my life, not something I do after life happens that day. Yeah, I love that. Can you speak a bit more about that?
- [40:57]
Pippa Grange
I am a generally optimistic, excitable person and I can be like, ideas are pinging all the time. I can get really fast, quite mercurial in the way that I'm processing things and engaging things and I start things and, you know, sometimes if I don't actually check in, ooh, that pace is a bit high. You know, if I don't do that, then I'm. I actually am depleted by the time I even think about rest. So I. And after my own burnout, that's particularly noticeable to me. So I actually have to design pause times. So like you, I have a morning routine, but I design pause times during the day, like my midday status report, you know, to actually go, okay, how's it going? How am I doing? Just in the way that we would if we were thinking about how to help an elite athlete perform consistently. Where's the reflection point? We tend to do it at the bookend of the day or the week or, you know, the season. And it's integrating it into the way to the way that we're doing the day. So I actually have to put pause points in and check in and come back to my physical body for the intelligence I need.
- [42:13]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
One of the things I used to talk to patients a lot about was this thing that this idea about micro stress doses. And a micro stress dose is a little hit of stress that in isolation you can handle just fine. The problem is when those micro stress doses or msds, mount up one on top of the other and get you closer and closer to your threshold compound. Exactly. And when you're close to your threshold, that's when the problems start to come in your life. That's when you snap at your partner or your children or you get irritated by an email from your colleague. It wasn't actually the thing that your partner said or the email your colleague sent to you. It was the fact that you were very, very close to your stress thresh. And when I hear you Talk about these check ins throughout the day. I love them and I love this idea because I think also what it does for people is as they're accumulating stress in their day, which is normal. If you don't take that break at lunch and you work through, you just keep accumulating, you're getting closer and closer, but you take that 20 minute break and walk around the block without your phone, you've just lowered. You've got much more headroom between you and your threshold. Right. So it actually is a preventative step to stop things going wrong. But we don't do it. We think, oh, I'll chill out on Sunday.
- [43:43]
Pippa Grange
Yeah.
- [43:43]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
And Monday to Friday is like I crack on from the minute I wake up to the minute I go to bed. Yeah, that's it, isn't it?
- [43:49]
Pippa Grange
That's it. That's exactly it. It's like in the book, when I'm talking about sort of, you know, burnout as a process rather than an event. You know, I use the metaphor of wildfires and there's kind of like the understory fire, which is it's crackling and it's problematic, but it doesn't take the whole forest out or ground fires that are going to take quite a lot of the forest out. But you'll still probably have tall timber or you can have a crown fire which decimates everything. Now when we don't take those pauses or have those practices or, or come back to ourselves, or when we're dishonest with ourselves and we're masking, we are creating a fuel ladder. You know, it's like old dead debris ready to go up in flames. It's tinder ready to set on fire so that when, then there is more pressure than we can handle. Woof.
- [44:42]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
It causes chaos.
- [44:44]
Pippa Grange
It causes chaos. Yeah. And it's built over time. Burnout isn't overnight. It doesn't happen overnight. Right. So all of those practices are actually removing the dead wood, removing the dead old dry stuff to just refresh and regenerate. Regenerate means to start anew and it happens within your life, not after it. That's the whole point.
- [45:09]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
I imagine there are some people who are listening, Pippa, right now who are thinking, yeah, that all makes sense. You know, I should have some solitude. I should regularly check in with myself throughout the day, not allow the dead wood to start accumulating. It all makes rational sense. Why is it, do you think, there's so much resistance within people to actually do it?
- [45:35]
Pippa Grange
Sometimes I think these practices sound like you need an hour, right? Like that idea of sort of the slow morning. If you've got three kids and you're trying to get them to school by 8:30, you know, slow morning might be a tough ask for you. So when it comes to the triangle, the renew part of that doesn't have to be equal time by any stretch. It's equal emphasis, right? So it might be, you know, what is it that. Are you going to put a tune on in the car on the way to school or the way back from school? That's just going to lift for a second. It's like, how are you acting in favor of yourself, in favor of your life in small short ways? Sometimes it's a quick laugh, sometimes it's a tiny moment of self care. It might be literally a minute or two. It doesn't have to be a yoga class. It's, you know, how are you coming back to wholeness? Coming back to feeling like you're caring for yourself for a second. Because the more we do that, the less we build up debris that's gonna set on fire.
- [46:39]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
You mentioned the parent there of young children who might be thinking, well, I don't have time for this.
- [46:48]
Pippa Grange
Right.
- [46:49]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I recognize that that is the case for many people. And at the same time, I think sometimes we, I think you write about this later on in the book about we've got more choice than we think in terms of how we design our lives. That with a few little nudges and changes, you might be able to create some of that time. It could be that because you're knackered and stressed, there will be a temptation, and I've seen this with many patients over the years, to unwind in the evening with alcohol and. Or staying up late watching movies or Netflix. And so you're going to bed late, you're never gonna get up early cause you're already knackered and stressed out. So the morning starts at full pelt. Yeah, right, I get that. And I ain't criticizing it at all. I'm saying, and I'm saying this because I have helped people through this in the past. There might be another way. It might be that you choose to drink less in the evening. Maybe don't stay up till midnight watching Netflix if you can. And get up five minutes before your kids to go and sit downstairs with a cup of tea before they all come down saying, you know, what's for breakfast? All this sort of stuff. Again, that may not work in every situation, but I just wanna offer that it's very Easy for us to tell ourselves. Stories that, oh, I can't change this because of.
- [48:17]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, absolutely.
- [48:18]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
And it may be that case, but it may be that there is this little thing you could do that would make an impact. Cause as you say, it's not about the big change. Even five minutes of calm or renewal can be very powerful.
- [48:30]
Pippa Grange
And I talk about sort of the three levels, the cascading levels that I start the book with of the stories of how we learned who to be. What we're just talking about. There is behavior, Right. And that's super critical. And that does not have to be huge. It's nudges, it's recognition, it's fire breaks. Right?
- [48:49]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right.
- [48:49]
Pippa Grange
But there's also the stories that sit behind that that we do need to stop and examine. Right. The story that I've gotta have more than I've got now. The story that I'm supposed to not waste any time, I've got to optimize every minute. Even our leisure time, even our love lives have to be optimized. You know, it's like with this market mind that we're always running towards doing it better and betterment and then exceptionalism, you know, this. It's like you're actually supposed to stand out when really what we want is to fit in. And it's, you know, these things as well as the idea of being separate. So, you know, all of that out there doesn't really matter. All I'm focused on is me. I'm not connected to the next person or to the web of life. And I can override my body if I want to. You know, when you get those things together and they build those mentalities like I'll sleep when I'm dead or, you know, I won't drop the ball, and all of the mentalities that keep us gritting it out, revving harder and getting more and more dead wood. So then when the last little bit of compound strain comes, we're up in flames. And it's really hard to come back from there. And anybody who's burnt out will know that that's. We use the term lightly, but actually, if you've had a proper burnout, you know that that's going to knock you for a good while, physically and psychologically and spiritually. So it's, you know, it's. I would like for people to avoid getting there if they can, through recognizing the stories that they live in and the behavioral changes that are relatively simple and small, that are firebreaks.
- [50:29]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
When you were talking there, Pippa, about Separateness and this idea that we're not separate. For some reason, Eli de Kipchoge came to mind. I know you're a fan of Kipchoge like I am, and I've been very fortunate to have two, two hour conversations with him on this podcast, which I feel very lucky about. The last time I spoke to Kipchoge, the day after the London Marathon where I think he came sixth or seventh. This is really interesting, someone who was regarded as the greatest for a decade, first person to run under two hours. I asked him something like, what was it like for you yesterday to come sixth? And he just had this beautiful smile on his face. He was totally at ease with it. He was just. He was so happy that the youngsters are now coming up and it's their time. It's not his time. He's had his time. He seems to be a sportsman who is not over performing in your language. Right. He seems to know how to win deep and is happy whether he is winning gold medals or not, because it's not about him. And then as you were talking there, Pippa, I really reflected on Kipchoge and in our first conversation he told me how running is a team sport for him. It's not about him. He never ever trains by himself in Kenya. They always train together. And he goes, yeah, it's great, because if it means if someone's not showing up, someone's on the phone, said, hey, are you okay? Why aren't you showing up to training today? Whereas here in the west it's an individual sport for many people, it's like, I'm gonna go for a run, I'm gonna go for this time. Do you know what I mean? It feels that he seems to be someone who understands that it's about we, not. I mean, what's your take on that?
- [52:23]
Pippa Grange
There's a couple of things that come up for me thinking about Kipchoge. The first is that I think as an athlete he seems to me to be very whole, you know, so he's so much more than his results or his achievements. He seems to be really quite sort of non compartmentalized as a person. Well, you know, from your couple of hours of conversation with him, there's so much more to him than his running. The things he's involved in and his contribution to the world, his relationship with the world and with people in the world feels very whole to me. You know, it's not the measure of him, isn't his results alone. Even though he would be proud of that. So that's the first thing. The second thing is, you know, and I talk about this in Better Reasons to perform in the book, which is, you know, one of them is love. And he definitely performs for the love of it. He performs for the fulfillment of it, for the creative endeavor of seeing what's possible and for other people, for each other, you know, And I think now that's maybe why his appeal has been so enduring, you know, because you can see that he's in it for more than himself. It's kind of like the essence of competing, the essence of sort of what we. With the real origin of what it was to sort of, you know, be pushed to your very, very max and your very, very best because somebody else was running on your shoulder, you know, and he recognizes that in a profound way.
- [54:01]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
What do you think the true purpose of sport is?
- [54:04]
Pippa Grange
Ooh, that's a big question. For me, I would say that the true purpose of sport is to seek more life. You know, sport is a place where we can go and see what's possible in ourselves, in each other. I hate to see it getting so narrowed to being about results and scoreboard winning. For me, sport is where we go test our mettle. It's where we go find out what happens when we're under pressure, what. How good it feels when we help somebody else out in a team. You know, how we feel deep pride in having done something together or done something to represent and stand at our full height because we were able to and we challenged ourself in that moment. So I think sport is just a phenomenally important and integral part of the human condition. And I don't like seeing it narrowed into a product, an entertainment product, you know, something that's just about winning. And, you know, it's just. I just think it's important. I think it's more than that.
- [55:21]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's interesting that you say it's more than just results. And you're someone who worked in professional sports for many years, and of course, in professional sports, certain people and coaches and players are actually judged on results, aren't they? So how might someone find their way through that? So if sport is not about results, it's about us testing ourselves, seeing what we're capable of. How does that fit alongside the fact that it is a big business these days? And if you are hired to be coached for a top Premier League football team, you're probably hired to either win the Premier League or get them in the Champions League. And if you ain't doing that, you're probably going to get fired. It's problematic, isn't it?
- [56:06]
Pippa Grange
It's an and it's not that the ambition has to be taken out of it, to be regenerative in your performance or to find deeper meaning, but the meaning, the sense of your understanding of why you're, you know, what your reason for performing at that level is, why you put so much in, what the shape of your ambition is that has to run alongside the outcome that you need, which is the result that, you know, the result on the scoreboard. It's not an either or, it's not a trade off, it's a, you know, that's a factor of resilience. If you're coaching a Premier League team, your resilience will come from knowing why you're doing it and feeling the shape of those relationships around you as part of what it, what allows you to regenerate week on week.
- [56:57]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, no, I love that going back to those chapters in the book where you've got an awareness over performance is happening and now it's about how do you sort of almost re edit that story? And you've got two chapters there. One is coming home and one is getting honest. And I love every chapter in the book, Pepe, but those two in particular I thought would be quite fun to go into coming home to yourself. I think a lot of people will not have a clue what that actually means. So when you say coming home, what do you mean? Today's episode is sponsored. By the way, have you tried to meditate before? Perhaps you've heard about some of the benefits like reducing stress and increased focus, and you've given it a go and thought it's not the practice for you. Well, I believe that may well be because you have not yet tried the right approach. You see, the Way is the only meditation app with a single long term pathway. You're not forced to make loads of choices each day. Instead, you're guided on an enjoyable and progressive journey that deepens your practice step by step. Now, I've been using this app for many months now and I absolutely love it. In fact, I, I love this app so much that I recently decided to invest in the company and join them in their mission to get more people meditating. Since I partnered with the Way, I have had so much positive feedback. One listener said, Dr. Chatterjee, I came to the Way through your podcast. I've tried other meditation apps with limited success and likes the idea of following a single guided path. I'm nearly two months in now and loving it. Henry's gentle and concise approach is very calming. And the Way is now a regular part of my morning routine. That's the sentiment that many people report when they start meditating with the Way. And for listeners of my show, the way is offering 30 free sessions to help you establish your meditation practice. All you have to do is go to thewayapp.com livemore to get started. Today's episode is sponsored by Boncharge. Now, I've been using Boncharge wellness products for over five years. From red light therapy to infrared sauna blankets to blue light glasses, Bont Charge make it really easy to get healthy while staying at home. One of my favorites is their infrared PEMF mat. It uses pulsed electromagnetic field technology to send gentle magnetic energy into the body and helps me feel more grounded and relaxed. Now, I personally like using this mat in the evenings whilst reading or relaxing or meditating, basically to help switch me off before bed. If you're looking to take charge of your health at home, I highly recommend you consider adding the infrared PEMF mat into your daily routine. Bon Charge are giving my audience 20% off all their products. All you have to do is go to boncharge.com and use the code livemore to save 20%. That's B O N C-H A R-E.com and use codes livemore to save 20%. So when you say coming home, what do you mean?
- [60:46]
Pippa Grange
Can I ask you to share with me what you felt when you read that? Because I think you have a particular way of describing it that is probably pretty useful here.
- [60:58]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Okay, so I've got a narrative in my head already going, pippa thinks I'm gonna say something. I don't know what she thinks I'm gonna say, so let me just acknowledge that that was there. Okay? When I think of coming home, I just think of being present with myself, right? That feeling when all the external stories and conditioning and expectation stops. And when I'm. I'm literally with myself and I know exactly what I'm feeling. So I said before to you that I had a phenomenal weekend. I was reading your book in the sun with a coffee, took my son to parkrunners, played with the kids in the garden, played paddle. At lunchtime, one of my best mates from school, who I haven't seen in ages, came and joined us impromptu. He came round for lunch afterwards, no plan at all. We just laughed for three hours. I would say this weekend in many ways was coming home. I didn't feel I had to perform or be Anyone else, I was just totally me. And in those morning moments of solitude, I felt I got a lot of insight into my life. So that's what I think currently, when
- [62:22]
Pippa Grange
you ask me that question, it's beautiful. That's it. It's like beyond labels, beyond tasks, beyond the to do list. And I'm not talking about being on holiday for a couple of weeks. I'm talking about when you can just drop everything else and just like, oh yeah, just me, you know, just here. And that is what coming home to yourself is. And there's like various elements and aspects of it, but essentially it is when you can put down the massive weight of your own expectations of what you're supposed to be doing and where you're supposed to be and how you're supposed to be and just actually be for a minute. And that, you know, it involves so much of that presence, not as a practice, not as just a meditation or a, you know, something that resets you. It's letting go, it's just allowing yourself to just be you without the judgment.
- [63:19]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
For someone who is stuck in do, do do the whole time, right? Someone who may be currently suffering from burnout or close to burnout, this idea of coming home to themselves could seem quite distant and unattainable for sure. Like, if you think about the nervous system, let's think about it like a car with lots of five speed gearbox. Let's say your nervous system has five gears and let's say you're used to running your life at gear four and gear five, coming home is probably more gear one, gear two. I guess that's not easy if you're used to being at high speed all the time, is it?
- [64:03]
Pippa Grange
That's why coming home and honesty go together right in this. But if you're burnt out, or if you're on the precipice of burnout, or even if you're just under a lot of strain right now when you can ask, what's here? How do I actually feel? And just let your mind, body and life answer that for you rather than automatically rev into fifth gear. That's coming home. That's being able to sort of say, ah, this is how it is right now, and then think about what next.
- [64:41]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
I guess one of the reasons being able to come home is so important, it is something that I guess you talk about early on in the book, this idea that the big questions in life don't get answered intellectually. They get answered when you listen to your heart.
- [64:59]
Pippa Grange
Yes. So opening your heart is a big part of coming home. Right. Because we're so oriented to living from the neck up in our. Our brain, we don't listen to the heart. And heart doesn't shout like the head does. You know, you have to be a bit quieter to hear it properly. It's more likely to whisper. And the gut, you need some space and some presence to actually pay attention to your intuition and to your instinct in those ways that are coming from gut that are giving you different pieces of information. So coming home is about wholeness. It's about. Oh, yeah, it's a feeling I get when I sit on my yoga mat at the start of a class because I know I'm going to have an hour of time that is just about integrating and unifying mind, body, spirit for me in. In that moment. And it's like, oh, yeah, this is me today. Wow. My shoulders are tight or head's very busy. Whatever it is, it's just like, drop it. Let's just drop it for a minute and just be here. And that is part of coming home. But it's definitely heart based.
- [66:09]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
I love the idea of an open heart. It's something I think about so much when I think about how to exist in the world and what is it I want. I honestly think I can boil most things down to can you live with an open heart? And I can honestly say that, and I'm sure this is the same for everyone if they actually pay attention. When you live with an open heart, everything in your life gets better. You know, I guess I love winning deep winning cello, I guess winning deep, you could say, is winning with an open heart and winning shallow is, yeah, you're still winning, but you're winning with a closed heart. And to me, an open heart means, although very simply, it means many things. But one of the things I try and do in life is to give without any expectation of return. And it's something I think I got into maybe two or three years ago at New Year. I was reflecting on, you know, wouldn't it be nice if you could just give and do things for others with no expectation of anything? If something comes back, great, but it doesn't matter if it doesn't. You still gave because otherwise you gave. And there was a condition to you giving. You gave only because you were going to get something back. And again, I'm not criticizing anyone who does that. I probably have done that for much of my life. But I think to live from an open heart and with an open heart, you do need to slow down and you do need to come home to yourself.
- [67:55]
Pippa Grange
Yeah. You know, probably the best example of this sort of giving with no expectation of return that I've seen recently is in some of the work I've been doing over the last few years with my business partners and friends at Open House, which is a cafe and supper club and yoga studio and its sister project at the Ten Trees Garden, which is all about whole being in our little village in Hathersidge. So lots of people book onto the yoga or the Pilates or the workshops and we have a Musica's medicine program, et cetera. And we've been building community for the last couple of years. It's beautiful. And at first it was. We started with the intention of generosity. We started with this idea of like, let's just give and see what happens as much as possible. And. And it's been amazing to watch people come into that space and give themselves. So as part of the classes schedule there's a Pay it Forward group, right? And the Pay it Forward group is for somebody who's booked a class. Only 12 spots in a class. It's little. And if you can't go, you could cancel on the website and get a refund or you can put it on the Pay it Forward and give it to somebody, gift it to somebody.
- [69:09]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Right.
- [69:10]
Pippa Grange
And the Pay it Forward channel is just this whole phenomena in generosity and people now, I love seeing it now. People put other things that have nothing to do with Open House on their things that they want to give or offer to other people. People have started interacting with, care for each other. If somebody's sick and they have to pay forward their class place, it's just become this really beautiful little vignette of generosity. Generosity breeds generosity and it's not about how much money anybody has. It's the open with which people engage in that space because that's what they find there. And it sort of just ping pongs between people and suddenly it becomes then an open hearted place.
- [69:57]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Goes back to something you said earlier on in the conversation, that something I completely subscribe to as well, is that the way we change society is by changing ourselves, right? So you start showing up with an open heart in your life that will ripple to the people around you. And if enough people do that, well, that's how you change the world.
- [70:18]
Pippa Grange
Right? Back to the principles of ecology. Right? Everything runs on energy. So the energy you give will be more often than not reflected back to you. If you bring positive energy, if you bring generosity, it will be reflected and maybe it'll only be reflected in people opening a bit, if you bring negativity or closed energy, then people might withdraw a little bit. These things compound.
- [70:47]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
In that section on coming home, you also talk about returning to the basics.
- [70:52]
Pippa Grange
Yeah.
- [70:53]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
What does that mean?
- [70:54]
Pippa Grange
For me, returning to the basics is about, you know, you spoke about it before. If you are in a physical fog because you haven't slept well, you haven't fueled your body in a way that offers genuine nutrition and pores enough to digest something, if your stress levels are super high and you're not giving yourself any fire breaks, you know, it's that stuff as much as anything. And I add space into that psychological space, I think is absolutely a basic. If you, you know, if you are on go mode the whole time and you don't allow some space just to let go for a second, the pause I spoke about earlier, that's integral to being able to come home, being able to be honest. So honesty takes a lot of energy. Coming home to yourself. Living with an open heart is a particular type of energy, and you want to regenerate that. Right. So those basics are very fundamental in that, especially sleep.
- [71:56]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
For that person who feels that they're right in the thick of it and they can't slow down. They don't know how to slow down. In fact, they probably are at burnout. So they don't even know that because real burnout is really, really severe.
- [72:13]
Pippa Grange
It takes a year at least a
- [72:15]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
long time to fully recover from, doesn't it? Yeah, it does, but I guess it's a colloquial term now that's used a lot of the time. I mean, do you have a definition for burnout?
- [72:24]
Pippa Grange
I think it is a very uncomfortable, involuntary process of transitioning away from what's not working for you anymore. Right. And it's on multiple levels of physiology. You know, your biological responses and your psychological responses, whole raft of symptoms, but it's super hard to to. It is problematic to define it in the literature and people sort of argue ad nauseam about the official definition of it. But for me, it's a transition away from what's not working. And sometimes your body and your mind just say, hey, we've been throwing up warning lights for months and months here. You're not listening. So you're handing over the keys and we're crashing.
- [73:09]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
That's the key, isn't it? The body was always handing out warning lights.
- [73:12]
Pippa Grange
Exactly that.
- [73:12]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
It was always doing it. You may not have seen it, you may have been too busy to pay attention, but it did not happen overnight.
- [73:19]
Pippa Grange
Exactly Exactly. And that's why I talk about the core four principles of regenerative performance of sort of like coming to presence, diversifying your modes and speeds, being able to listen to the intelligence of the body and recognizing your own wild clocks and rhythms, which we can talk about. But that listening to the intelligence of your own body is critical because it's throwing up signals all day, we just override it.
- [73:49]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
The chats are on. Getting honest is quite an interesting one because when you say getting honest, you talk about not lying. But it's not only not lying, which I found really interesting. Right, so not lying is, you know, you don't tell a lie, you don't tell a white lie, you don't tell a straight out lie. I want to ask you why you think that's important, but it was also about when we leave out important things.
- [74:15]
Pippa Grange
Not hiding.
- [74:16]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, yeah, so. Cause that's not actually, I guess it's not directly a lie, but I guess it's almost misleading because I guess when relevant, if we don't bring something up, we may not be lying, but we're also withholding. Why is this so important?
- [74:30]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, I'm not talking about this here from an ethical or moral perspective. I'm talking about what it creates for you, the individual who is letting out that little white lie or omitting or withholding or masking or covering up something. Because for me, what happens is a small ripple of inauthenticity in your energy. It's part of the deadwood that builds up. Right, because you're not quite being true to yourself. And the example I would give you is, let's say somebody calls you and says, hey, Rongan, can you come and do this thing for me next week? And you kind of think, ah, that guy did something for me, maybe I should help him out. But you don't really want to. And maybe you feel next week is a bit crammed already for you. You know, if you were, if we looked at it from the lying perspective, you would make an excuse and say, no, sorry, I can't, mate, because you know, I've got something else on. At the same time, if you were going to do it more honestly, you would be able to say, I feel too cramped next week. Or actually, I just don't feel a degree of motivation to do that right now. Perhaps I can help you out next time. Right, but as soon as we hear that, we go, oh my God, there would be so many consequences to me when you don't do that. The cost is yours. So you've made the path easier to make an excuse with somebody else. But you've been inauthentic to yourself. And you get further and further and further away from what's actually true for you. And, you know, the question for me is like, why can't we actually say, I'm too tired, I'm too strained, you know, I feel a bit stressed, or that's not really where I'm at right now. You know, perhaps I can help you on the next project. You know, it's. That is really hard to do in our culture. And the problem is we bend and then we bend ourselves out of shape because we don't want to have the friction or discomfort that goes with telling the truth. And then as that sort of cascades, then we start masking a little bit that like, oh, I'm not gonna share all the strain I'm feeling. Because, you know, this. I've got really. It's really normalized for me to not tell the truth about myself.
- [76:58]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, it's such a great point. It is so, so common. I don't think it is in every culture. You know, I remember from when I did a couple of ski seasons in Chamonix, and certainly in the winter, maybe 30, 40% of the population are Swedes. And again, just my perception was that the Swedish culture is a lot more direct. And actually when you're not used to that, it's uncomfortable. But that discomfort only is because you're not used to it. But actually, I've come to really value directness because it's like, oh, great, I know how you feel. Right? There's no, I guess, you know, born and brought up in the uk, I think both of us, there's a thing here about being polite. Right? You say the right thing. But that does come at a huge cost. Cause half the time no one actually knows what you really think.
- [77:51]
Pippa Grange
Exactly that.
- [77:52]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I did spend much of my life being like that. But I have really changed that over the last few years. Literally last week an example was someone contacted me to ask me to. They said, wrong. And I love your work. I think you're really gonna like my new book. I'd love you to read it and consider endorsing it. And I'm sure it will be. And it is a wonderful book. And I don't have time. And so I just sent a really nice email. I didn't even. And I didn't even wait two, three days. I did it straight away, said, hey, thank you so much. Unfortunately, I'm over committed at the moment. I can't remember what else I said, but I told the truth, basically. I didn't give any white lies, so I'm sorry I'm not able to help you. I hope the launch goes well, or something like that. And I got a lovely reply. And I think what we don't realize sometimes is when you are honest and there is a way to be honest and kind of. It doesn't have to be triggered. You can be totally honest and kind. I think people like that, they respond to that. They're like, oh, I know where I stand now. Whereas the older version of me would have tried to fudge it or kick it down the road for a few months. It's still lingering in your head going, oh, this problem's not going away. It's still going on because I didn't deal with it. And so I think a lot of the reasons some people can't be honest is because of a deep insecurity, and it probably relates to some of the stuff in your former book. There's probably fear there, right? There's fear of, I need to be liked, so if I say no, will they like me? It's quite hard, isn't it, to be honest?
- [79:27]
Pippa Grange
It is quite hard to be honest. But it's the sort of quick rip of a band aid of, like, there's gonna be. I'm going to feel a moment of friction for being straightforward and telling my truth, or I'm gonna kick it down the road for months and continue to feel a bit uneasy. And my point is that that costs you in authenticity and it costs you a little bit too much in what you have to then carry as a mask. And, you know, the freer that we get, the better that it is and the more able we are to regenerate energy that you have to carry, that energy of small dishonesties where you're not being fully you. And then, you know, people start loving the you. That's fake. Or fake's a harsh word, but that's not quite fully whole and true.
- [80:20]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. This is really what charisma is, surely, right? A charismatic individual. The people we feel drawn to. I guess, some of the time, I imagine that is because they are fully authentic sometimes.
- [80:37]
Pippa Grange
But somebody just. I just had a political figure pop into my mind that's very, very charismatic.
- [80:43]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
So maybe there's. Okay, what was it? Maybe there's deep charisma and shallow charisma. Right. So maybe the deep, real charisma.
- [80:52]
Pippa Grange
That's your next book.
- [80:53]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
When you really are being yourself. And I think that is quite magnetic. But there can also be a performance of charisma, I guess.
- [81:00]
Pippa Grange
There's a substance, there's a real substance to people who you feel are just comfortable enough in their own skin that they're straightforward and they say it as
- [81:09]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
it is, but they don't mind not being lied. Which I think is another one.
- [81:12]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, that's part of it. But as you quite rightly say, there's a respect that goes with people who are honest, right? So if you had actually said, or you or I or anybody actually said, I feel a bit too tired to take on anything else at the minute, right? Suddenly, the impression that we put out to the world of, like, a resilient performer and all the rest, it's like, ooh, did I just edit that impression that I made on the world? But it's true. And so it's substantial because it's true. And you have that tiny moment of friction for saying it.
- [81:49]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
I want to just go a bit deeper on what really is the cost to ourselves when we sort of lie or we have these white lies, right? Because I imagine someone's thinking, look, you know, I don't know, my mate asked me to pick up their daughter from school today and drop them home on the way, but I don't want to do it because then I'm going to get stuck in traffic. Or, you know, this is literally coming off the top of my head, right? It's easier to tell a white lie, right, because then there's no big issue. You just say, hey, listen, I'd love to have helped, but, you know, I've got to. I'm taking Harry to football, right, for that skeptic who's saying, well, why does that actually matter? Make the case to them that it does matter.
- [82:35]
Pippa Grange
I think it comes down to the energy. So then next time you see your mate and they say, well, how was Harry's football? And you're like, you know, you put yourself in a position to have to mask and perform. You know, like, you're over performing by doing that. And the essential point is, can you be faithful to yourself and say what's true for you, in a way to your point before, about saying it kindly or generously? You know, how else might you have framed that if you didn't want to get stuck in traffic and pick up his kid? Like, how? Let's just roll with it. Like, how else could you have said it?
- [83:10]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Well, I guess you could just tell the truth. Say, I've got so much on at the moment, and if I do that. I'm gonna get stuck in traffic, I'll be home really late. And actually, I just don't have the bandwidth for that at the moment, I'm afraid.
- [83:26]
Pippa Grange
And you could just literally take two of that explanation off and leave the last bit. I don't have the bandwidth today, buddy. That's it.
- [83:34]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah.
- [83:35]
Pippa Grange
And that's true for you, because you
- [83:36]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
want to be over explaining either, do you?
- [83:38]
Pippa Grange
Because you will dig yourself in a hole. And the point is, it's like, how do you have a tiny moment of friction but be true? He hears it, you said it, you both feel good about it. Right. And you haven't said, I don't like your kid, I don't care about you, and so I'm not gonna help. That's not the truth.
- [83:58]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. What's really interesting is if I think about that through the lens of burnout, in some ways you can think about burnout as a web of lies. Right. I've never thought about it like this, but it's almost as if the reason you're probably burning out is because you're constantly lying to yourself.
- [84:17]
Pippa Grange
Yeah. I describe it as being unfaithful to yourself. Maybe you're putting too much energy into people and things that actually no longer move you or are not quite true for you. But we lose our sense of how to say it out loud and stand in it, you know?
- [84:39]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
And that's why the small ones are so toxic, because you do it once.
- [84:42]
Pippa Grange
That's what I'm talking about with the ripple.
- [84:44]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
It just continues.
- [84:45]
Pippa Grange
Yeah. So it's a small cost. Right. But is it a withdrawal or is it a credit when you say it? Honestly, it's a credit when you are slightly dishonest. Small white lie. Or you hide. Because it's not always something that you lie about, is. Might be something that you just don't share. It's a withdrawal.
- [85:10]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
In that chapter on honesty at the end, you got some lovely questions. You say, here are some reflection questions that can help you honour your own honesty. And they include, where did I say what I really meant this week? Where did I feel the tug to avoid honesty this week? That's a good one, isn't it? You know, because you may not have done it, but you just. You just felt that urge. Where did my nervous system feel calm and harmonized? And where did it feel out of sync this week?
- [85:40]
Pippa Grange
Yeah.
- [85:41]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Who did I feel most real with this week? Where did I say yes when I really felt no?
- [85:49]
Pippa Grange
Yeah.
- [85:50]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
I mean, that's a big one for most People, isn't it?
- [85:53]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, exactly. And also when you, some people say no when they really wanted to say yes, you know, imagine journaling those once a week, you know, those, those questions just to sort of put yourself in touch with what honesty means for you.
- [86:08]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. I don't think people sometimes realize just how powerful that is. I think sometimes there's a tendency to think you've got to overhaul everything.
- [86:15]
Pippa Grange
Yeah.
- [86:16]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's like if you every Sunday, if you literally with a cup of tea or coffee spent five minutes answering those questions and you did that week on week, you would know yourself so much better and you would start to make different decisions just from that self inquiry.
- [86:35]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, exactly. And I really make the point strongly about not judging yourself. This is not a time to judge yourself. If you're being brave enough to do something like that, it's not not time for criticism. It's like, oh, there was one, there was one. Oh, yep. Didn't quite say what I meant there.
- [86:54]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Because, you know, I firmly believe that awareness is maybe 80, 85% of all change. And it's my belief someone may have a different perspective. And the reason I believe that to be true, A. I've seen it in my own life. I've seen it it in many patients. But once, you know, let's take that question. Where did I say yes when I felt no?
- [87:20]
Pippa Grange
Right.
- [87:20]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Let's say you're reflecting. You're like, let's say it was picking up Harry and taking him to football when you didn't want to. Right. Once you know that and you've registered that in your consciousness on that Sunday when you next get asked to do the same thing, you now can't pretend to yourself that you didn't know. Do you know what I mean? It's even more heightened in front of you that, oh, yeah, now you may do it again, but each time you do it and then you reflect on it, you're like, you're bringing it up to the surface. You're taking it out of the shadows and bringing it into the light. And it will lead to a change. It's just a matter of when. Once you start asking yourself those questions
- [88:05]
Pippa Grange
and alongside not criticizing yourself while you're being brave enough to do that, you also have to recognize that like if you just catch one winning, right. If you catch yourself doing it once, you don't have to wholesale change this all at once. Regenerative performance is about practices and methods that are where you can change within your life rather than have to create something entirely different. Right. So it's nudges and small behavioral shifts. And I really encourage people to think of it that way. Right. If you catch yourself with one where it might be. Huh? I could have added a bit there. That would have been even more honest. It's not a criticism or a shame. You know, there's no need for a dose of shame that goes with it or, like, something to fix. It's like, oh, there was one. Beautiful. Caught it. Next time.
- [88:52]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
That idea that you can make changes within the context of your life, I think is really powerful, Pippa, because as we both know, sometimes when people feel that they're struggling and that they're overly stressed and they've got too much to do, they feel that the answer is to escape. Yeah, I need to quit my job. They might need to quit the job. Okay. But they might. I need to quit my job. I need to sell my house and move out to a village in the country and just paint all day.
- [89:21]
Pippa Grange
Yeah.
- [89:22]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
It's a form of escapism. Right. That possibly doesn't get to the root of what's going on. Some people may want to do that. Fine. But I think. I think one of the beautiful things about this new book of yours is that you help people make these regenerative changes within their life. They don't need to do all that big change if they don't want to.
- [89:43]
Pippa Grange
Exactly that. Exactly that. Because a lot of people have got lots of things that they do like, and it's what they plan to do, but it's just feeling overwhelming. They can't get their head above water. Right. So how do you change it so that you can properly evaluate before you have to feel like you've got to completely withdraw from it and tools down and escape? Or you keep going to the point of, you know, burning, burning up and sort of burning out? They can't be the only two options.
- [90:13]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. Let's finish off talking about these core four principles of regenerative performance, because ultimately, that is where you want us to get to. Away from over performance and all the way over to regenerative performance.
- [90:28]
Pippa Grange
So the first one is coming to Presence, which, you know, your podcast, your work has talked about lots and lots, and we all know that it's really, really important, but it's hard to actually remember to do so. You know, the moment of pause, a girlfriend sent me a. When I. After I'd burnt out, a girlfriend sent me a mug, and it just says pause on the front of it. And every time I go and make myself a drink during the day, I use that mug and it's like, oh, yeah, that. Oh, yeah, Pause. Right. You know, so it's like, give yourself behavioral prompts that allow yourself to just come to presence and pause for a second. And that beautiful practice I spoke about before of hand on heart, hand on belly, what do I want? What do I feel? What do I need? And just allow yourself a moment to listen and listen wholly, not just what your head has to say. So coming to presence is a really important first one. The second one is about diversifying your modes of operation and your speed. So a lot of people are stuck in one gear, and that gear is usually pretty fast. Doing a lot there. It's always intense. There's a sense of constant scale and intensity. That means that we're just hanging on for the weekend. Right. In ecology and actually in real elite performance, especially in sport, you really have periods where it's intense, but also periods where it's slow. You have periods where it's fast and shallow and periods where it's deep work that you're doing. You have periods of renewal, periods of performance, periods of rest, periods of performance. And so actually, properly diversifying your modes of operation and your speed is really essential. I have a client who wrote a diversity matrix for her working month where she started with a week, and she just had all the things that she might like to do across a month, across a week, and what pace and what mode she would need to be in to do that. And she scheduled it. And so she had to schedule it in her diary for the first time, little while, until she got used to it. And it completely radically changed the way that she operates at work. And she felt like she had so much more mental bandwidth at the end of the week to be able to do that.
- [92:58]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Because she'd planned for the different speeds.
- [93:00]
Pippa Grange
Yeah, yeah. So sometimes she's in. You know, there was a lot of it where she was gonna have to be responsive. So she didn't. It wasn't like between 9 and 11, I will do deep work in between, but it's. It was across a week. So it was like, I need at least four hours of deep time, deep work time. I need at least, you know, six hours of communication because she was working, running a project team. So. And some of the things that were in every day were how often she would go outside the office and get fresh air, for example.
- [93:33]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
And I guess it's going to be. It's going to be different for everyone in whatever profession they're in. So it could be. I don't know, a teacher, for example, it could be that they're holidays or the summer holidays or the Easter holidays, or maybe the summer holidays after the exams. Maybe that's a time where they really try and switch off and go, you know, it's been a fast paced year, but now I'm gonna rest and renew an accountant. Maybe December, January, February, March is the busy, busy time of year because of end of year tax returns. So maybe they plan in, okay, that's great, that's part of my job. But maybe I structure a big Easter break or April and May. I must make sure that there's a slower pace to compensate. That's kind of what you're talking about, right?
- [94:20]
Pippa Grange
And it's that sense of then feeling that you're across the whole thing. So for the accountant, maybe they're really trying to get that moment to design a system that's going to improve how much rev they have to have for the rest of the year.
- [94:33]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Or they use the downtime to design the system.
- [94:35]
Pippa Grange
Right. So it might be a more creative type of work or it might be a more structural piece of work rather than just a transactional piece of work. It's like how do you diversify and plan for it and respect the plan that you make as much as possible, whatever the work is. And then there are some things that always mean, always need to be in the day, especially the pauses and the get outside for a minute, you know? Cause they deplete us enormously.
- [95:01]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Principle 3 Reconnect with your rhythms.
- [95:03]
Pippa Grange
Yes, rhythms and wild clocks. So the wild clock idea is straight from ecology. There's a guy called David Farrier who wrote this beautiful essay about how pollinators and flowers and other kinds of ecological meetings that keep everything thriving and flourishing are not meeting anymore because of the change to the climate, et cetera. So he was talking about wild clocks in an ecological sense of things being mismatched. And I think we've got the same, same issue with the way that we see our lives and our stage. So in nature, no living being behaves the same way throughout their whole life cycle. But we expect the same from ourselves through our whole adult life cycle. At least we don't recognize the changes that happen in adulthood. We recognize them through childhood and adolescence. And you get to be a grown up and it's the same then for the next 40 or 50 years. Right. And of course it's not. So you were talking before about feeling like maybe there's a change afoot for you or an adaptation to a new phase that's exactly it. That's a wild clock in some ways. Looking at why would. And menopause is another example for women. Right. Expecting the same from yourself in perimenopause or menopause as you did previously and just gritting it out, out. That's not it. That's not what nature does. It evolves to meet the time, it adapts to meet the time. And then of course, there is winter, dark nights, dark mornings, summer, longer daylight. How do we adapt to those things? Or are we ultra processed and homogenous and mono all year? Right. With expecting the same thing. And there's only a few creatures in the world that actually have a menopause. For example, toothed whales also have a menopause. But once that whale has been through menopause, they have a different role in life because there's a recognition that something shifted. It doesn't mean you're not productive, doesn't mean you haven't got a valuable role. But something needs adaptation. How can we talk about that? So that's wild clocks and rhythms and. And I ask people the question, do you have rhythm in your life or do you have pace? And how do you know the difference? Because rhythm, it's kind of like a performance rhythm. Like you come up to the crest of the circle and you come down the other side before you go again. It's whole. It's not a straight line, it's not a straight linear thing.
- [97:52]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah. And the fourth one is embodied intelligence.
- [97:57]
Pippa Grange
So this is like, can you, you reconnect your mind and your body? We treat our body like it's an Uber for our head control center. And we treat it sometimes even like a burden. Something needs fixing or something's not right or we have to improve something. It's like the machine that carries the intelligence center around, but this incredible thing that is your body is alive with intelligence from your gut, from your heart, signaling to you all day what you really need and how you're really doing. And can you actually connect those things a little bit more and respect your whole intelligence rather than just your head intelligence? Because that is a massive, massive piece of not getting to that burnout phase.
- [98:40]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Yeah, I love that. Such a clear way to think about the difference between over performance and regenerative performance. It's something that's, I guess, very practical actually, in terms of a map to help those of us who need to shift and make changes in our life to get there. Looking back on your time working with the England football team, how do you think about it now?
- [99:07]
Pippa Grange
I think that was an amazing little moment that encouraged me to really think about how these principles apply to. To people more broadly. You know, that's my time at England was sort of the culmination of 25 years of working in elite sport, which I thoroughly loved. But it was time for me not to be on the bus anymore and in the organization, in the thick of it in that way. I still coach people, still coach high performers from sport in that way. But it was an extraordinary moment and it has given me so much opportunity that I am very deeply grateful for. That is about me being able to have conversations like this to help more people.
- [99:52]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Pepe, you know how much I love your work. I thought you first book Fearless was amazing. This book is just as good. I love the content in it. Life Find freedom from Chronic over performance. It's a wonderful book. I'd highly recommend people check it out if they resonate with me. The ideas that we've spoken about today. To finish off, Pippa, you've shared loads of practical tips in this conversation today and there's plenty more in the book. If someone, whilst listening to this conversation, connected deeply with this idea that actually their life is slightly off track, it's not going the way in which they want it to go, perhaps they feel stuck or close to burnout, but until now they felt that there's no way out, what would your final words be to that person?
- [100:52]
Pippa Grange
I would suggest that firstly, they start with a big dose of generosity and care for themselves and take a moment to look at whether they actually need a way out or they need to change within in. And I would encourage them to be thinking about matching that inner landscape with the outer landscape and the world that they're in and finding more wholeness. That's the essence of it. And as you quite rightly say, the book is full of. It's a map really for how people might be able to do that. But first, slow down, pause, ask yourself and respect the answer.
- [101:34]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Pippa, great advice. It's been such a pleasure talking to you today. The book is wonderful. Life Reclaimed. Thank you so much for coming back on the show.
- [101:41]
Pippa Grange
Thank you for having me, as always.
- [101:47]
Dr. Rangan Chatterjee
Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Do think about one thing that you can take away and apply into your own life. And also have a think about one thing that from this conversation that you can teach to somebody else. Remember, when you teach someone, it not only helps them, it also helps you learn and retain the information. Now, before you go, just wanted to let you know about Friday 5. It's my free weekly email containing five simple ideas to improve your health and happiness. In that email I share exclusive insights that I do not share share anywhere else, including health advice, how to manage your time better, interesting articles or videos that I've been consuming, and quotes that have caused me to stop and reflect. And I have to say, in a world of endless emails, it really is delightful that many of you tell me it is one of the only weekly emails that you actively look forward to receiving. So if that sounds like something you would like to receive each and every Friday, you can sign up for free free@drchatterjee.com Friday 5 Now if you are new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that I have written five books that have been bestsellers all over the world covering all kinds of different topics. Happiness, food, stress, sleep, behavior change and movement, weight loss and so much more. So please do take a moment to check them out. They are all available as paper backs, ebooks and as audiobooks which I am narrating. If you enjoyed today's episode, it is always appreciated if you can take a moment to share the podcast with your friends and family or leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful week. And please note that if you want to listen to this show without any adverts at all, that option is now available for a small monthly fee on Apple and on Android. All you have to do is click the link in the Episode notes in your podcast app and always remember, you are the architect of your own health. Making lifestyle change is always worth it because when you feel better, you live more.